Romans 7 and 8

[Glen]

Tesimonies For the Church page 505 paragraph  2      " ...... Every living Christian will advance daily in the divine life. As he advances toward perfection, he experiences a conversion to God every day: and this conversion is not completed until he attains to perfection of Christian character, a full preparation for the finishing touch of immortality."
What you feel sister is just more human reasoning is a direct quote from Inspiration. I believe it.

Jesus told the Pharisees who came to Him warning Him to flee from Herod,
Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected. 33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following.... Luke 13:31, 32

We, to day, are called to exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. Hebrews 3:13

The fall of our first parents broke the golden chain of implicit obedience of the human will to the divine. Obedience has no longer been deemed an absolute necessity. The human agents follow their own imaginations, which the Lord said of the inhabitants of the old world were evil and that continually. The Lord Jesus declares, I have kept My Father’s commandments. How? As a man.... 3SM 138.2

Neither giv(ing) place to the devil. 30 ....griev(ing) not the holy Spirit of God, whereby (He was) sealed unto the day of redemption. Ephesians 4:27, 30

And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. Luke 2:40, 52

Each moment of the life of Christ, from birth to manhood, and as "representing humanity, inhabited by divinity"(The Review and Herald August 18, 1896.07), -leading up to His crucifixion, was a perfect example of overcoming the world, the flesh, and the devil. The Crucifixion itself was the culmination of that daily dying to self (Neither giv(ing) place to the devil. 30 ....griev(ing) not the holy Spirit of God, whereby (He was) sealed unto the day of redemption. Ephesians 4:27, 30) that essentially forever sealed His loyalty to pure LOVE, assuring the Believer of the possibility of overcoming on his/her own account, as Christ did on His. Though He accepted to drink "the cup" in the darkness of that dreadful night in the Garden of Gethsemane, as He had stated, he yet could have prayed to His Father and He would have sent Him more than twelve legions of angels. 54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be? (Matthew 26:53, 54)

....Christ entered the field in man’s behalf to conquer Satan for him because He saw that (unconverted) man could not overcome on his own account. Christ prepared the way for the ransom of man by His own life of suffering, self-denial, and self-sacrifice, and by His humiliation and final death. He brought help to man that he might, by following Christ’s example, overcome on his own account, as Christ has overcome for him.3T 372.01

....How careful is the Lord Jesus to give no occasion for a soul to despair. How he fences about the soul from Satan’s fierce attacks. If through manifold temptations we are surprised or deceived into sin, he does not turn from us, and leave us to perish. No, no, that is not like our Saviour. Christ prays for us.He was tempted in all points like as we are; and having been tempted, he knows how to succor those who are tempted. Our crucified Lord is pleading for us in the presence of his Father at the throne of grace. His atoning sacrifice we may plead for our pardon, our justification, and our sanctification. The Lamb slain is our only hope. The Review and Herald September 1, 1891 Par. 2

"The Lamb slain is our only hope." Christ prayed for Peter, as well; and, after he denied His Lord, seeing the look of love on his Saviors face, Christ's prayer that his faith fail not, was answered in his being born again. (see Luke 22:32)

Those who live at the End of The Age, who are spiritually minded through Christ, will have the privilege of hoarded hindsight, as it were, as they daily choose  to "keep the Light" on, abiding in Christ, possessed of His Spirit. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. Romans 13:12; John 1:1-4, 13

We, too, with Christ abiding within our soul-temple, "must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following...." The Shekinah glory blazing forth from within....

Those that overcome the world, the flesh, and the devil, will be the favored ones who shall receive the seal of the living God. Those whose hands are not clean, whose hearts are not pure, will not have the seal of the living God. Those who are planning sin and acting it will be passed by. TM 445. 01

[Richard Myers]

When I gave the example of the person killed on the highway who was growing in Christ, being sanctificied daily and gaining victory over sin it was implied that he had a repentant heart even though he had no time to express such. Some would say that God could not save him and if He did He would have to keep him alive until he outwardly gave expression of repentance. I acknowlege that I said he died in an accident before he repented but I meant in terms of an outward expression of repentance so perhaps my statement was either misleading or else not well enough defined so as others would not get the wrong idea. 

Thank you, cp. That is a whole different theology than what we heard you saying.  To allow a man to have life when he is unrepentant, saying he will repent in the future, is a false gospel. It is what Venden and Sequiera teach. God looks upon the heart. If He resides there, then there is life in the soul. If we have not His Spirit, we are none of His. "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness." Romans 8:9,10.

Have a blessed Sabbath. We love you too!

[Cop]

Cop, are you saying that verse 15 describes the converted Christian?

7:15   For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 

I would have to disagree. If I do that which I know is wrong, I am not converted. Christ is not in me.

Yes, that is what Paul is saying about himself. He is speaking, as I stated, in the present tense, not the past tense.

Let us look at the difference between present and past tense in this verse. He would have been speaking of his past life if he had written thus:  'For that which I did, I allowed not: for what I would have, that did I not; but what I hated, that did I.' But he has written in the present tense: "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I."

In Galatians 5:16-18, Paul says almost the exact same thing as he wrote in Romans 7: "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."

Christ does not reject us, and we lose our salvation, every time we sin. But if we refuse to admit to God that we have sinned and continue in that sin, then I say, yes, we have lost our salvation. "He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy." [Prov. 28:13].

John in 1 John tells us: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." [1 Jo. 1: 9]. John is writing to the members of the church, to Christians, and telling these Christians that whenever they commit a sin, they have forgiveness if they confess. In chapter 2 verse 1 he says: "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"  The LORD is telling us (Christians) that we, not the lost,  'have an advocate with the Father'.

We must accept the word of God as it is written:

The language of the Bible should be explained according to its obvious meaning, unless a symbol or figure is employed. Christ has given the promise: "If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine." John 7:17. If men would but take the Bible as it reads, if there were no false teachers to mislead and confuse their minds, a work would be accomplished that would make angels glad and that would bring into the fold of Christ thousands upon thousands who are now wandering in error.

[GC 599]

[Mimi]

Tesimonies For the Church page 505 paragraph  2      " ...... Every living Christian will advance daily in the divine life. As he advances toward perfection, he experiences a conversion to God every day: and this conversion is not completed until he attains to perfection of Christian character, a full preparation for the finishing touch of immortality."
What you feel sister is just more human reasoning is a direct quote from Inspiration. I believe it.

It would seem the definition you are giving the word "conversion" is not consistent with the way Mrs. White uses it in her statement. In this statement she uses it in meaning the process of change a person's character experiences. Having to do with sanctification. In the previous passage I supplied, the definition for "conversion" is in the context of a person converting their theological ideas, or a change of heart to God and His law and makeing a "converted" decision to follow God, His laws and precepts.

Perhaps there is a misunderstanding of definitions?

Perhaps so, ejclark, because I was discussing the born again state of conversion. The scripture I supplied gave evidence of its beginning stages - babe, new birth. At conversion, true conversion, God has the whole heart, not portions of it. The entire life is surrendered to Christ and nothing is held back. There is no such thing as partial conversion when one wholly dies to self and begins a new life in Christ.

Quote from: colporteur on September 21, 2012, 05:52:09 PM

    When I gave the example of the person killed on the highway who was growing in Christ, being sanctificied daily and gaining victory over sin it was implied that he had a repentant heart even though he had no time to express such. Some would say that God could not save him and if He did He would have to keep him alive until he outwardly gave expression of repentance. I acknowlege that I said he died in an accident before he repented but I meant in terms of an outward expression of repentance so perhaps my statement was either misleading or else not well enough defined so as others would not get the wrong idea. 

I have purposefully not addressed Colporteur's killed-in-an-accident man because the scenario(s) [there were a couple of them that varied from post to post] he presents is as ridiculous a characterization of the intents of God as I have ever seen. He would have the man saved after he cursed got angry at a bad driver and had no time to repent before being killed. He said God knew the man's intent, that had he lived, he would have repented. I wish Colporteur had followed this discussion along with Scripture in defense of his position instead of loosely gathered scenarios of what he thought God would do in any given situation. Scripture tells us exactly how God sees sin. A man who can curse become angry enough at someone to sin just prior to his death is not within the will of God.

That was volume 2 of the Testimonies. My recollection of the quote was not word for word but close.

And I appreciate that quote because it is the deeper conversion, well beyond that which I was referring to at the beginning of one's experience.

I take no joy in debating. It tends to be destructive rather than edifying.

To the contrary, my friend Colporteur, you do appear to feed upon debating and there is no place for it among Christians because it is destructive and not at all edifying. 

It is my desire that we all attain that perfection that Jesus died to give us. I desire to do the will of God and that I should disappoint in no way. I wish to redeem the time and to be a stepping to stone to Him and a stumbling block to no one. I believe in victory over sin, over every sin even in a single thought, and not as an option but as a promise, an assurance, and a reality. May we die daily and reflect the character of Christ. May we be converted, and reconverted daily as we hasten the coming of the one altogether lovely, our Lord and Savior Jesus.
I love everyone on the forum and wish you the best.

Happy Sabbath to all !

I love you, too. And to point out something you say in your parting words: if you really believe what you said, then you could not also believe the man in the car accident could be saved while cursing angrily sinning against another driver prior to death and expect that God would save him. Was his final act in life one that showed he possessed the fruit of the Spirit? Did it show he was abiding in Christ? Did he have the attributes of One altogether lovely?

1 John 3:9  Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

[JimB]

If a person retains salvation while sinning as some to be saying here I'm left with a couple of questions....

Why were Adam and Eve removed from the garden of Eden after only eating a piece of fruit?

Why was Moses denied entrance into the Promised land only because he lost his temper for a moment?

Contrary to what I understand scripture to be saying it appears that some believe that a good tree can indeed produce bad fruit and light and darkness can dwell together.

[Mimi]

Amen.

[Mimi]

In Galatians 5:16-18, Paul says almost the exact same thing as he wrote in Romans 7: "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."

This seems contradictory, Cop, to equate what Paul is saying in Romans vs. Galatians. Yes, he is making reference to almost the identical words, but in Galatians he is giving the solution. A few verses later is this:

Gal 5:24  And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25  If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

How is Paul walking in the Spirit in Romans 7 while he is unable to tap into the power that will reverse his condemnation and give him relief from his "wretched" condition? He is not walking in the Spirit in Romans 7. He is squirming under the fact that he is carnal, sold under sin and crying out for deliverance. He is suffering because sin is still very much alive in his life.

I believe we need to move on to Romans 8. It will clearly reveal the condition of the man described in Romans 7. 

When there was frustration in ch 7 (v.24), there is peace in ch 8 (v.6).
In ch 7 there is spiritual death (v.10), but in ch 8 there is life (v.6).
In ch 7 there is defeat (v.15), but in ch 8 there is victory (v.13)
In ch 7 he is a slave to sin (v.14), but in ch 8 he is free from sin (v.2)
In chapter 7 he acts against the law of God (v.22.23) but in ch 8 he can through the Spirit obey Gods law (v.4)
In ch 7 he is a "wretched man", but in ch 8 he is a "child of God" (v.14)
In ch 7 he is driven by his flesh (v.23), but in ch 8 he is driven by the Spirit (v.14)

[Mimi]

I will post it once more.

Romans 8

Rom 8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4  That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5  For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6  For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8  So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12  Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13  For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15  For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16  The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17  And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Rom 8:18  For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19  For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20  For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21  Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22  For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23  And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24  For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25  But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Rom 8:26  Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27  And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Rom 8:28  And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31  What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32  He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33  Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34  Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35  Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36  As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37  Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38  For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39  Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[Cop]

How is Paul walking in the Spirit in Romans 7 while he is unable to tap into the power that will reverse his condemnation and give him relief from his "wretched" condition? He is not walking in the Spirit in Romans 7. He is squirming under the fact that he is carnal, sold under sin and crying out for deliverance. He is suffering because sin is still very much alive in his life.

Praise the Lord, he does tell us how to tap into this power that gives relief from the power of sin in verses 24 & 25: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. "




Verses 14-25 describe the experience of the born again person. A few reasons for this statement are offfered here:

1.  In verses 7-13, in which Paul describes how the law awakened him to his sinful state, he uses the past tense. In verses 14-25, he changes to the present tense. Logic suggests that there must be some reason for this. The obvious one is that he is acually describing his own immediate experience as a Christian.

2.  “What I hate, that do I” (verse 15). The unregenerate person does not hate sin. In chapter 8 verses 5 & 7 we read: “For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit...Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” Such a statement as Paul made in verse 15, might be made by one who is under conviction.

3.  “I delight in the law of God” (verse 22). The one who can delight in the law of God is the born again person (“Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” Ro. 8:7). It is conceivable that one under conviction might have such feelings.

4.  In verse 5 Paul refers to “...when we were in the flesh...” (past tense). This suggests that when he writes in the present tense, he is “in the Spirit”. It seems that nothing that he actually says suggests otherwise. If it is held that he is referring to a past experience, it must be made on grounds other than his language.

5.  In verse 23, sin is described as an obstacle to the “inward man”... the regenerate, or born again person (v. 22), which is impeding his growth towards perfection in Christ. The citadel of the soul which has been surrendered to God is being attacked and besieged by sin in the physical faculties (“...sin which is in my members”) . This again tells us that the passage does refer to the born again Christian.

6.  If we are to assume that verses 14-24 refer to Paul’s experience in his past before his conversion, when he was struggling with his conscience, why, after triumphantly stating that victory comes, “through Jesus Christ our Lord” (verse 25), would he immediately revert to his theme of 14-24 and say, “So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin”?  It would appear that he is saying in effect, “I can do all things through Christ”; ultimate victory over every sin is assured, but I must constantly, daily, battle with my fleshly propensities. “Paul was on watch lest evil propensities should get the better of him. He guarded well his appetites and passions and evil propensities.” (BC 1089).

Can it be that the regenerate will have the experience described in these verses...that of doing what he hates (verse 15), doing what he wills not to do (verse 18), being a dwelling place for sin (verse 20), being in “captivity to the law of sin” (verse 23)? Is this not our experience in our Christian walk towards perfection in Christ? Unless we have already reached perfection, I believe the answer to the question is, YES.

The regenerated person knows that his true humanity is in Christ, but he knows also by undeniable experience that the old humanity still lives in him. Therefore, his life is a moral conflict. It is a greater conflict than before. In the time before his conversion it took the form of a struggle to achieve self-justification against an accusing but only half awakened conscience; now it is a conflict between the old nature and the new, between experience and faith and the conscience that is illuminated and quickened by the Holy Spirit, and by the vision of the perfect life in Christ.

Is there any born again Christian who will insist that he does not experience to some degree what Paul here describes? I know of none.

[I normally do not write such a long post as this as they are wearisome to read. Please forgive...]

[Mimi]

How is Paul walking in the Spirit in Romans 7 while he is unable to tap into the power that will reverse his condemnation and give him relief from his "wretched" condition? He is not walking in the Spirit in Romans 7. He is squirming under the fact that he is carnal, sold under sin and crying out for deliverance. He is suffering because sin is still very much alive in his life.

Praise the Lord, he does tell us how to tap into this power that gives relief from the power of sin in verses 24 & 25: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. "

Oh yes, I have always acknowledged the shift, the change, the solution to his condition found in the last two verses.

I am reading the rest of your post. Thank you, Cop. 

[Mimi]

2.  “What I hate, that do I” (verse 15). The unregenerate person does not hate sin. In chapter 8 verses 5 & 7 we read: “For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit...Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” Such a statement as Paul made in verse 15, might be made by one who is under conviction.

3.  “I delight in the law of God” (verse 22). The one who can delight in the law of God is the born again person (“Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” Ro. 8:7). It is conceivable that one under conviction might have such feelings.

I firmly believe he is under conviction throughout Romans 7 until the last two verses, and he reveals the power he has found to obey. We are told he struggled many nights while under conviction. I am convinced Romans 7 is a recollection of that struggle. See The Life of Paul, page 24. He was far from converted in that account. But, he was under the mightiest of convictions brought on by the Holy Spirit.

Here is more food for thought:

The Saviour said, "Except a man be born from above," unless he shall receive a new heart, new desires, purposes, and motives, leading to a new life, "he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3, margin. The idea that it is necessary only to develop the good that exists in man by nature, is a fatal deception. "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." 1 Corinthians 2:14; 3:7. Of Christ it is written, "In Him was life; and the life was the light of men"--the only "name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." John 1:4; Acts 4:12.  {SC 18.2}
     It is not enough to perceive the loving-kindness of God, to see the benevolence, the fatherly tenderness, of His character. It is not enough to discern the wisdom and justice of His law, to see that it is founded upon the eternal principle of love. Paul the apostle saw all this when he exclaimed, "I consent unto the law that it is good." "The law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." But he added, in the bitterness of his soul-anguish and despair, "I am carnal, sold under sin." Romans 7:16, 12, 14. He longed for the purity, the righteousness, to which in himself he was powerless to attain, and cried out, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death?" Romans 7:24, margin. Such is the cry that has gone up from burdened hearts in all lands and in all ages. To all, there is but one answer, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29.  {SC 19.1} 

[Glen]

How is Paul walking in the Spirit in Romans 7 while he is unable to tap into the power that will reverse his condemnation and give him relief from his "wretched" condition? He is not walking in the Spirit in Romans 7.

Sister Sybil, I'll repeat a question I believe I've asked before, but didn't receive help on:
Does the Scripture, ....holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2 Peter 1:21 NOT include Paul as he writes in Romans Chapter Seven? -How; then, can we say that Paul "is not walking in the Spirit, as he writes those verses"? My! How he has fallen from Romans Chapters 1-6:

Romans 1:9   
....God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son....

Romans 2:8, 9
--unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness,  indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil....

Romans 3:21
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 4:19-21
(Abraham)....being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: 20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

Romans 5:10, 21
 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:1-4, 21, 22
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

As we see, in Romans Chapters 1-6; then again, in Chapters 8-16 Paul obviously is inspired in his "inward man", AND in his actions, calling all of us to an higher standard.

--As I see it:
When Paul sat down and began to write the first words of Chapter 7, he already knew the secret to victory as being that which he wrote in Romans 13:14 ....put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

IF, as you have inferred, Paul as he writes in Romans 7, is not walking in the Spirit, why are his writings in that chapter even included in the Bible, and considered, "inspired"? Are Paul's words in verse 25, for example, So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.... actually have me to believe that I can "have the mind of Christ" (Philippians 2:5) and at the same time yield to sin, condemned by the law; all the while grateful that Jesus saves me still? How "neatly" does his purported (at least as I understand you to be saying) conversion "happen" to come between Romans 7: 25 and Romans 8:1! I thought the chapter divisions were man-made? I sincerely believe there is grave danger believing that we may trust Paul's reasoning in Romans 7; if indeed, he's actually unconverted as he sits writing, there.

Do I believe he is inspired and "walking in the Spirit in Romans 7? Yes indeed! Paul is there describing the experience of  professed Christians  in the Church,  manifesting how he To the weak became....as weak, that (he) might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, he says that I might by all means save some. 1 Corinthians 9:22

 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 1 John 5:18

The description in Romans 7 describes, I believe, what Ellen White describes in the following:
Let us glorify God that we have a Saviour to make intercession for us, to speak in our behalf before the Father, and present His merit as a propitiation for our sins. Let us glorify God that although we are defective He honors us by permitting us to advocate truth and to maintain His cause. But although we make many mistakes in that which we do, although we fail of doing it in the best way, although we neglect and leave many things undone because self is not surrendered to God, although we are creatures full of vanity and selfishness and self-esteem (and all this God despises), yet notwithstanding our many imperfections He continues to teach us, and commissions us to act a part in His cause. When tried and tempted, many have virtually cast reflections upon God, yet the Lord has not cast them off forever. He has borne long with them and has given them another trial, and provided new opportunities, and has put forth every effort to draw them nigh unto Himself, in order that they might behold Jesus and become changed into His image in spirit and character. Manuscript Releases Volume Thirteen [Nos. 1000-1080], Page 279.01

Every individual must fight the good fight of faith for himself, in order to attain to the perfection of Christian character that will fit him for the society of the saints in light. Manuscript Releases Volume Thirteen [Nos. 1000-1080], Page 279.02

[Mimi]

Glen, this will help explain. I am sorry I didn't catch your question before.

4.  In verse 5 Paul refers to “...when we were in the flesh...” (past tense). This suggests that when he writes in the present tense, he is “in the Spirit”. It seems that nothing that he actually says suggests otherwise. If it is held that he is referring to a past experience, it must be made on grounds other than his language.

As a writer recounting his experience, as we do here in a testimony, through storytelling or book-writing, etc., it makes sense he would write it that way. How many inspired letters did he write before Romans?

These are the generally accepted dates attached to his writings:

    First Thessalonians (ca. 51 AD)
    Philippians (ca. 52-54 AD)
    Philemon (ca. 52-54 AD)
    First Corinthians (ca. 53-54 AD)
    Galatians (ca. 55 AD)
    Second Corinthians (ca. 55-56 AD)
    Romans (ca. 55-58 AD)


I have no argument at all, for there is no other way to tell of his experience except in the present tense. John, Daniel and other Bible writers did the same thing. The question here is, of what experience was he telling them? He is recounting his conviction that was leading up to his conversion. For up until the end of the chapter, he was powerless to perform. With conversion comes power as long as we abide in Christ. 1Corinthians 10:13  There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.     

I will get to Cop's #s 5 & 6, but for the moment, I need to run.

[Glen]

How many inspired letters did he write before Romans?

I did NOT ask: "How many inspired letters" did Paul "write before Romans".  -You said that "He is not walking in the Spirit in Romans 7." I take exception to the suggestion that Paul wasn't in the Spirit as he wrote Romans 7.

I concur that "Saul was far from converted" in  EGW's account of his being convicted in Life and Sketches of Paul p. 24, describing his struggle under conviction caused by the Holy Spirit through the godly testimony of Stephen as he was martyred.

Paul's account in Romans 7 as an "holy man of God speaking as He was moved by the Holy Ghost" (2 Peter 1:21), necessarily would mean that he was; indeed, "in the Spirit" as he wrote it. As Scripture declares: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:16, 17

Actually, my question and thought was focused exclusively on the in-congruency of; on the one hand, Paul being truly inspired as he wrote Romans 7; --on the other hand, your suggestion that Paul was NOT in the Spirit as he wrote those verses in chapter 7. Is the description he wrote about, a description of someone not dwelling in the Spirit of God, unable to do the right when under conviction to DO right? -Yes

In Romans chapter 1:18-22, Paul, in the Spirit, had clearly stated:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

So; by Romans chapter 7, unless he had fallen away after he wrote chapter 1, Paul was still "in the Spirit" as he wrote chapter 7. 

Perhaps what we need to understand, here, is that there's a difference between what he wrote (under Inspiration), and what he was writing about? --A person who is "in the Spirit" would KNOW that: "What Would Jesus Do?" -would be "second nature"; not an outcry of O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? vs.24.

No, I cannot accept that those who have received the impartation of the Holy Spirit, which is the impartation of the life of Christ, will be in an anguish, sold under sin.
(See Gods Amazing Grace, p. 212.4)

[JimB]

Glen, I think maybe there's been a misunderstanding. I can't speak for Sybil (she can correct me later if I'm wrong) but I believe I understand what she was trying to say.

I don't think she was trying to say that Paul wasn't in the Spirit as he actually penned the words on paper but the rather she was saying that Paul's description of himself of being exasperated at not being able to obey.. it was then that during the experience itself that he was not walking the Spirit.

[Glen]

-Thanks, JimB. Perhaps I was reading into what she said as what our local Pastor interprets it as: "See, even the Apostle Paul did what he knew he shouldn't; Paul's condition in Romans 7 is that of normal Adventists. We will not stop sinning until Jesus comes in the clouds at His second coming. -That's when we become the new creature the Scriptures speak about. He changes us when He comes at the Second Coming in the clouds."

[Mimi]

How many inspired letters did he write before Romans?

I did NOT ask: "How many inspired letters" did Paul "write before Romans". 

I was answering Cop and I am sorry your pastor would preach such a thing. He would lead many people to accept a powerless Laodicean condition as something that is Biblical.

Did you know the word wretched is used only two times in the Bible? One is in Romans 7 and the other is in Revelation 3. I do not believe this is just a coincidental choice of words.

[Mimi]

Glen, I think maybe there's been a misunderstanding. I can't speak for Sybil (she can correct me later if I'm wrong) but I believe I understand what she was trying to say.

I don't think she was trying to say that Paul wasn't in the Spirit as he actually penned the words on paper but the rather she was saying that Paul's description of himself of being exasperated at not being able to obey.. it was then that during the experience itself that he was not walking the Spirit.

Thank you, Jim. You are correct.

[Richard Myers]

Some will read through the last couple of pages and wonder why the strong response to the idea that Romans seven is Paul talking about his experience after conversion. I will explain. The "Evangelical gospel" makes an excuse for sin.  It teaches that one is saved in sin. It teaches that if one "believes" then he is saved even if he sins. This teaching has come into God's church. It must be met. God does not save man in sin, but from sin. The Bible is clear from Genesis to Revelation. Paul is clear in all of his writings. One only needs to read Romans eight to understand. That is why Sister Sybil has posted the whole of chapter eight twice now. And it is why the title of this thread is Romans 7 and 8. Seven is Paul's experience when he came under conviction of sin. Eight is Paul's experience after conversion.

For many years here, I have attempted to teach this truth from the Bible, but now that the Spirit of Prophecy has been used in an attempt to undo the truth, I will  present what is said so that all may understand that the Spirit of Prophecy does not agree with a converted man sinning.  It is true that a converted man may sin AFTER he takes his eyes off of Jesus, but not when he is abiding in Jesus. When truly converted a man is a partaker of the divine nature and escapes the corruption that is in the world. Here is a statement that helps us to understand the problem is in the heart when there is sin, the unconverted heart.

There is no safety for any man, young or old, unless he feels the necessity of seeking God for counsel at every step. Those only who maintain close communion with God will learn to place His estimate upon men, to reverence the pure, the good, the humble, and the meek. The heart must be garrisoned as was that of Joseph. Then temptations to depart from integrity will be met with decision: 'How then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?' The strongest temptation is no excuse for sin. No matter how severe the pressure brought to bear upon you, sin is your own act. The seat of the difficulty is the unrenewed heart."  AH 331 

Mark this point carefully, for it reveals the error that many cling to.  The heart of the converted Christian has been cleansed and purified by the blood of Christ and is the possession of Christ as long as the man clings to Christ. If the man allows his mind to be diverted from Jesus, then the Spirit does not stay and the man is left without power to resist the smallest temptation. "The seat of he difficulty (sin) is the unrenewed heart."  This does not mean that the heart had never been renewed, converted, it means that it did not retain its purity, its conversion.  When a man steps outside of Christ, the heart is no longer held by Jesus. He then is outside of the heart knocking on the door wanting back in. One does not retain his justification to life when he sins a known sin. The heart must be renewed and cleansed by the blood of Jesus. Repentance is a free gift from God, but it only comes in response to a confession of sin and a desire to be forgiven. It is "the goodness of God (that) leadeth thee to repentance?"  Romans 2:4.

There is a popular teaching  that the heart is defiled even after conversion and it will only be pure after probation closes. This is a lie. The heart when fully given to Jesus is as white as snow. "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9.  But, it must be continually given to Christ, or it will revert back to the carnal heart.

"There is not an impulse of our nature, not a faculty of the mind or an inclination of the heart, but needs to be, moment by moment, under the control of the Spirit of God. There is not a blessing which God bestows upon man, nor a trial which he permits to befall him, but Satan both can and will seize upon it to tempt, to harass, and destroy the soul, if we give him the least advantage. Therefore however great one's spiritual light, however much he may enjoy of the divine favor and blessing, he should ever walk humbly before the Lord, pleading in faith that God will direct every thought and control every impulse." MYP 62.

"All who profess godliness are under the most sacred obligation to guard the spirit, and to exercise self- control under the greatest provocation. The burdens placed upon Moses were very great; few men will ever be so severely tried as he was; yet this was not allowed to excuse his sin. God has made ample provision for His people; and if they rely upon His strength, they will never become the sport of circumstances. The strongest temptation cannot excuse sin. However great the pressure brought to bear upon the soul, transgression is our own act. It is not in the power of earth or hell to compel any one to do evil. Satan attacks us at our weak points, but we need not be overcome. However severe or unexpected the assault, God has provided help for us, and in His strength we may conquer." Patriarchs and Prophets 421.

[Mimi]

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