Romans 7 and 8

[colporteur]

You still misunderstand my point because you are so concerned with countering error that you do not see that it is truth you are countering. Maybe more clarification will help you through this.

I have never said that grace covers sin not repented of. Repentance is sorrow for sin, a desire to stop sinning, every intention to do so, and a reaching out to God for deliverance. I think you are splitting hairs so finely that all you can see a postion that uses your exact wording.

What does it mean to be converted ? Does it mean that the heart is changed. Remember that we are talking about the heart because God is after the heart. Conversion is a condition of the heart. Because someone may stumble does not mean, necessarily that their heart is not right with God. It means that they have taken their eyes off the mark and temptation over took them. It sounds like what you are saying is that if someone who joins the church and is getting victory over appetite stumbles and eats a Snickers candy bar that he is unconverted and his heart is not right with God. I entirely disagree. It does not mean that at all, necessarily. It means that he gave into a carnal propensity and needs to ask for forgiveness, repent and strive to separate from all things harmful. That is assuming he realizes that he has sinned by eating junk food. Because he sucumbed to appetite on this occassion does not mean he now loves Satan and is unconverted and lost.

I am not suggesting that we tell people its ok to sin and they can be saved by continuing in sin. Neither would I ever bruse a person by telling them that they are now unconverted and therefore lost. This leads a new convert to worry from one moment to the next as to if they are converted/saved, or unconverted lost.

Have you seen me defend sin on this forum as people have come on and promoted contemporary music? On the OF'fil forum I defended against abortion, WO, women wearing men's clothing, a non vegan diet, use of alcohol, meat, and animal products, contemporary music etc.etc.etc..

I speak out against lowering standards and call sin by its right name. If I believe it is ok to sin there is not reason to defend against any of that.

I believe it is biblical and safe to understand that we must be reconverted every day and that is true wherever we are in our walk with God. It is counter productive to have the saved/lost saved/lost mindset.
It is the way we approach this that is important. People being preoccupied from moment to moment with whether they are saved or lost and thinking they are unconverted because they stumble on the upward path takes focus off of Christ and puts it on us.  To do that is an assurance of failure.

Perhaps we are approaching this from two opposite danger zones. You apparently think I am excusing sin and I see you as crushing hope by taking focus off of Christ and placing it on a preoccupation regarding ones salvation.

I believe we ought to do alot of personal inspection but stop short of self condemnation while we are growing more like Christ daily.


Perhaps I am misunderstanding your position but I know you are mine.

[Richard Myers]

Perhaps I am misunderstanding your position but I know you are mine.

No, I don't think so. I think I have been very clear in presenting Scripture and the need to have Jesus at all times in order to have salvation. To be separated from Jesus is to be in need of a new conversion. You understand and have rejected this doctrine strongly. I understand very well what you and Carla have been teaching. I will say it again and you correct me if I am wrong. You believe when a person sins a known sin, he may still be in a converted state. In other words, you and Carla agree with Jack Sequiera that the "monstrous teaching in the Seventh-day Adventist Church is that when one sins, he must be re-justified."

I appreciate your thoughts, cp, on not wanting to crush the hope of those who are sinning. But, the knowledge of the truth has not crushed my hopes, nor anyone that I know who understands we need Jesus in the heart in order to be in a converted state. To the contrary. We then understand the problem and can claim the promises of the One who gave all for us. It was a great day when I understood what the problem was in my life and how to go about fixing it. Jesus is the answer. Grace is more than a word, it is the transforming power. If you go back and count the number of times I have used the words God, Jesus, and Christ, you will see that this message does not move the sinner away from Christ, but points him to Christ as our only hope. And, it is not good enough to talk about Him, we need Him in the heart. If we do not have Jesus in the heart, we do not possess power to resist sin and do not have life. It is a simple gospel that gives honor and glory to God, not man.

You still misunderstand my point because you are so concerned with countering error that you do not see that it is truth you are countering. Maybe more clarification will help you through this.

No, cp, I have been presenting truth. You need to go back and take a look at all the Bible verses being presented by  Jim, Sybil and myself. You are not addressing them. I have asked you to try and address the questions asked of you. It would be good to share where you disagree with the Scripture presented and why. You have presented tradition and "feelings", but not Bible truth.

I have never said that grace covers sin not repented of.

I know that at times my memory fails me, but when working with Bible students, not often. Here is what you said.

If a person is steadily growing in Christ and being chiseled and shaped by God but still not perfect and while driving home becomes angry at another driver who cuts him off and before having opportunity to repent is killed in a head on collision is the person in an unconverted state and lost?

Here you clearly state that one dies without repentance. If God is going to forgive this sin, is it not because of grace that He does it? The wages of sin is death. One sin, not two or three. So, by saying that one does not lose his justification when he sins, you must offer a reason that the sinner does not lose eternal at that time. The only thing that I could imagine you saying is that the sacrifice of Christ covers the sin. But, you say now that you don't believe this, that grace does not cover the sin not yet repented of. Why then would the sinner have life if grace does not cover it? On what basis can you say, from Scripture that the one who sins has life, if not for grace?

I think I will let the rest of your post go without comment until you answer some of these questions, cp. I don't see that you can answer them and remain in harmony with Scripture. But, there is always more than we can see. Maybe there is some power besides grace that you believe forgives sin. Maybe there is something special that covers sins that are not yet repented of. But, I have never seen it in the Bible. I keep asking for help from you in regards to my understanding of Bible verses. Human wisdom will always fail us, but the Word of God will never. Thank you for trying to help us better understand where you see we err, from Scripture.

[colporteur]

The longer we go the more tangled up you make this. Part of your confusion is because I can ask one question and you write a book on what I supposedly stated.  As long as you are not dealing with facts but fabrications or what you suppose I am saying there is no sensible dialog. Perhaps it would help if we shortened everything down and each asked a single question at a time and not move on until that has been answered. Please restrain the temptation to divert into what you think my experience is or what you think I say unless I truly say it. That is just an attempt to discredit rather than prove a point with reasonable dialog.

When a person has been baptized and is growing steadily in Christ, when is he converted relative to reaching a sinnless state defined as never sinning again even by a single thought ? You have never been clear on whether conversion is a process or not.

I will be happy to answer one of your questions at a time but not a whole page of questions at one time. I don't have time for that and it makes for a rats nest of posts, replies, cutting and pasteing. I am not retired and have two children to home school, people to meet canvassing, and many other duties.

[colporteur]

In the mean time ,what does it profit to say that a person who is growing in Christ but stumbles along the way is unconverted and therefore lost ? 

The truth is that none are fully converted until their characters are perfected and  character perfection is the work of a lifetime.

Conversion is a daily advancement but it is not sinlessness until sinlessness is attained. Until that happens one is still being converted as long as he is growing, learning and advancing. That does not mean there is never a set back along the way. Two steps forward and a half a step back is still advancing and that is the important thing.


 

[Richard Myers]

cp, I have addressed much of what you have stated. If I am wrong about something, then please share what it is. I am happy to answer your concerns, but you keep overlooking every question I ask and then continue on stating things are not correct. If you want to take one question at a time, fine, but don't expect me to not address your error. It misleads others who are not sure about the gospel.

I will go over your last two posts and then ask one question.

[Richard Myers]

I have never said that grace covers sin not repented of.

If a person is steadily growing in Christ and being chiseled and shaped by God but still not perfect and while driving home becomes angry at another driver who cuts him off and before having opportunity to repent is killed in a head on collision is the person in an unconverted state and lost?

My one question for you, cp, is this: You are teaching that one sin does not reveal that a person does not have salvation. If it is not God's grace that you are saying excuses this man's sin, then why does he retain his justification while sinning? I have always understood that the only reason we are forgiven our sins when we repent is because of God's grace. But, you say that you do not believe God's grace covers this man's sin. Then what does the Bible say about God overlooking known sin?  This is just one question. Which Bible verses tell us that God is going to allow man to retain eternal life while sinning a known sin?

It is true that we are granted temporal life for a period of time, but that is not eternal life. That comes with a full surrender at conversion.  Often we hear "conservatives" saying that Eve lost eternal life when she only ate one forbidden fruit, just one sin.  But, you are now saying that we can sin one sin and retain eternal life. That things have changed since Adam and Eve disobeyed God. My one question, share with us the Bible verses that will grant us salvation while sinning.

[Carla Hepker]

Thank you Richard for the time you have spent in this discussion, but I believe we are at an impasse. I don't see any point in continuing.

I also believe that I am well able to articulate what I think and believe and that others are able to read and form their own opinions; so, I do ask, Richard, that you cease and desist from stating what you think I believe or what you think I said. You have not been correct in your assumptions.

Moderators, please, if Richard quotes me or refers to anything that I have posted previously, edit his post and remove the comment.

[Glen]

There Is A Wideness In God's Mercy
 Frederick William Faber (1814 - 1863)

There's a wideness in God's mercy,
Like the wideness of the sea;
There's a kindness in His justice,
Which is more than liberty.
There is no place where earth's sorrows
Are more felt than up in Heaven;
There is no place where earth's failings
Have such kindly judgment given.

But we make His love too narrow
By false limits of our own;
And we magnify His strictness
With a zeal He will not own.
There is plentiful redemption
In the blood that has been shed;
There is joy for all the members
In the sorrows of the Head.

For the love of God is broader
Than the measure of our mind;
And the heart of the Eternal
Is most wonderfully kind.
If our love were but more simple,
We should take Him at His word;
And our lives would be all sunshine
In the sweetness of our Lord.
                                                           
The spasmodic, fitful movements of some who claim to be Christians is well represented by the work of strong but untrained horses. When one pulls forward, another pulls back; and at the voice of their master, one plunges ahead, and the other stands immovable. If men will not move in concert in the great and grand work for this time, there will be confusion. It is not a good sign when men refuse to unite with their brethren and prefer to act alone. Instead of isolating themselves, let them draw in harmony with their fellow laborers. Unless they do this, their activity will work at the wrong time and in the wrong way. They will often work counter to that which God would have done, and thus their labor is worse than wasted. Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers, Page 489.04

Men to be Counselors, Not Rulers
“Wait on the Lord: be of good courage, and He shall strengthen thine heart.” Let us each wait on the Lord, and He will teach us how to labor. He will reveal to us the work that we are best adapted to perform. This will not lead men to start out in an independent spirit, to promulgate new theories. In this time when Satan is seeking to make void the law of God through the exaltation of false science, we need to guard most carefully against everything that would tend to lessen our faith and scatter our forces. As laborers together with God, we should be in harmony with the truth, and with our brethren. There should be counsel and cooperation. Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers, Page 490.01

There always have been, and always will be to the end of time, two classes on the earth,—the believers in Jesus and those who reject Him. The truth will be a savour of life unto life to those who believe. However wicked, abominable, and corrupt he may be, the sinner will be purified by faith in Him, made clean by THE DOING of His word. But the same truth will be to the unbeliever a savour of death unto death. The Bible Echo March 26, 1894.01

[Mimi]

Moderators, please, if Richard quotes me or refers to anything that I have posted previously, edit his post and remove the comment.

Oh, Carla ... no, we would not do that. In the process of exchanges difficulties can and sometimes do arise. While you feel you have been misrepresented, prayerfully go to your brother, one on one, and work this out. No one is here to malign anyone. We value you and so does all of heaven. 

[colporteur]

I have never said that grace covers sin not repented of.

If a person is steadily growing in Christ and being chiseled and shaped by God but still not perfect and while driving home becomes angry at another driver who cuts him off and before having opportunity to repent is killed in a head on collision is the person in an unconverted state and lost?

My one question for you, cp, is this: You are teaching that one sin does not reveal that a person does not have salvation. If it is not God's grace that you are saying excuses this man's sin, then why does he retain his justification while sinning? I have always understood that the only reason we are forgiven our sins when we repent is because of God's grace. But, you say that you do not believe God's grace covers this man's sin. Then what does the Bible say about God overlooking known sin?  This is just one question. Which Bible verses tell us that God is going to allow man to retain eternal life while sinning a known sin?

I guess I was not clear enough in the post above so the intent was not understood. I hope you can accept that without a false accusation as what you know that I meant. The man did not verbally or outwardly have a chance to repent. He had not time to ask forgiveness. However, my thoughts were that he had a repentant heart and that is ultimately what God is looking at. In other words he was not rebelling against God but simply slipped a step along the path and had not time to make it right. He did not slip down into the abyss but stumbled. In his heart he was repentant and abhorred sin, and loved God. The trend of his life was right he just had not fully arrived. So in the true sense he did repent as God looks on the heart.  I do not see how this is cheap grace to be forgiven any more than it would be cheap grace in your example for God to lay someone to rest (whose heart was right with Him) before they had a chance to sin again. In a previous statement you said that God sometimes lays people to rest before they could sin again and be lost. Is that cheap grace ?  I  have answered your question to the best of my ability. .....      Could you post an example from the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy where a person was on the upward path of sanctification and converted and God cut their probation short so they could not fall back into sin? I would like to take a close look at that example.

I did not say that God's grace did not cover that man's sin. You did. This man was not unconverted as conversion is a lifelong process. Do you agree ?

[colporteur]

 Let me ask another question that may help you, cp. #1 Because the trend of the life has been good, is that a guarantee that the person will repent if he sins? And if it is not, #2 then why do you give the person eternal life when he sins? #3 At what point will you agree that he does not have life?

Answer to #1 - No
Answer to #2- Because if God reads the heart and sees that it is repentant or even that it would be repentant then why would you take away eternal life ?
Answer to #3- When as God looks at the heart he sees the end from the beginning  that the person is unconverted and will not be converted though given more probationary time. Mrs. White makes it clear that were God to give a person who has sealed their heart against God more time it would not matter. Neither would a repentant person who is sealed with the Holy Spirit rebel and be lost if given more probation. Salvation or loss of salvation is not continguent on time.

Let me see if I understand you correctly.
You believe that God looks into the future and sees that a repentant converted person will turn back to sin so his grace  covers him and cuts his probation short.

If God can, as you say, look ahead and know that  a person would be lost if He did not lay him in the grave before he rebels and God saves him,....... then how can you think that God cannot/would not look presently and see that a person has repented in their heart or that they would repent in the future if given opportunity therefore He would save them by grace through faith ?

[Mimi]

I need to jump in. Colporteur, your #2 and probably 3 as well if I begin to understand it, has the appearance of relationship theology. Here is an example:

Some years before I had spoken with Brother Venden and attempted to correct his error without success. Ten years later he had corrected the point I made, but revealed that he had other significant error. I asked him very pointedly, that if a man sinned on Monday and did not repent until Friday, was he in a saved condition prior to his repentance. Morris Venden said, "Absolutely he was in a saved condition. I teach 'relationship theology".

I don't think you believe that.

The last point in the post above has to do with God laying people in the grave to save them. Do you remember the vision in Early Writings, page 17 where His messenger wrote this? We all went under the tree and sat down to look at the glory of the place, when Brethren Fitch and Stockman, who had preached the gospel of the kingdom, and whom God had laid in the grave to save them, came up to us and asked us what we had passed through while they were sleeping.

Also remember God will cut short TIME else the entire earth would be destroyed.

"Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: for He will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma and been made like unto Gomorrah."

[Mimi]

I am disturbed with the perversion of the plain gospel that has occasionally been presented in the pages of this topic. There is evidence presented that shows a gross misunderstanding of what it means to be converted, what it means to ever be abiding in Christ, what it means to have the Spirit's indwelling and what is involved in obtaining salvation. Here are some topics we have on just those subjects.

What is Conversion? (private board) http://remnant-online.com/smf/index.php?topic=11812.0

Abiding in Christ http://remnant-online.com/smf/index.php?topic=751.0

Fruit of the Spirit http://remnant-online.com/smf/index.php?topic=12723.0

Salvation - what is it? How to get it? http://remnant-online.com/smf/index.php?topic=836.0

It is very, very easy to become entangled in side issues while discussing Romans 7. Why? Because basic foundational issues relative to the Bible doctrines of conversion, abiding in Christ, the fruit of the Spirit, and conditions to salvation are not fully comprehended and consequently, another gospel is introduced, taught and believed as Bible truth. "It is written" in Galatians 1:8  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. How strongly does God believe His word should be guarded? Strongly enough to condemn anyone who would introduce another. Who have we become if we believe such lies and pass them off as as the gospel of Jesus?

There are fourteen pages of Bible truth in this thread that carefully lays out why Paul's condition is that of the unconverted under heavy conviction by the Holy Spirit. Its understanding is predicated upon first knowing what conversion is, what it means to abide in Christ, what it means to be possessed of the Spirit of God and, the conditions of salvation. Paul knew and wrote much of the New Testament just on these subjects. Do we believe him in one place and not in another? Do we not take the Bible as it reads but instead, massage it into our own experience, our fallen experience, our Laodicean experience?

Can we have sin unrepented of and still have eternal life? Maybe we need to begin again and read Steps to Christ so we can get our doctrinal issues straight once more if they cannot be clearly understood from Scripture. That is the purpose of the Inspiration we have been given. If we understood our Bibles better, we would not need the testimonies.

[Mimi]

I posted this a few pages back and it was overwhelmed by human reasoning and responses lacking a "Thus saith the Lord." So, I will post it once more. If anyone has evidence to the contrary, meet it with Scripture. We are Bible students. Enough of human wisdom and speculation. The Bible is our guide. 



>>Are we more than conquerors? Yes, we are – Romans 8:37.

>>Are we accepted in the Beloved? Yes, we are – Ephesians 1:16.

>>Have we been delivered from the law of sin and death that Satan is determined to make us slaves to? Yes, we have been – Romans 8:2.

>>Who can do all things through Christ who strengthens me? We can – Philippians 4:13.

>>Without Christ there is no power to resist the least temptation. Here is a promise that is conditioned upon the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Christ in the heart: 1Corinthians 10:13  There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

All of this is ours through the powerful grace of Christ Jesus. Anything stating the opposite cannot be of Him. Consider the following: 

What are the characteristics of a converted Christian who dies daily, who is continually abiding and growing in Christ, and who is delivered, nay redeemed from the law of sin and death? Let’s do some comparisons of a few verses in Romans with those found elsewhere in the Bible to see who the converted Christian is, and is that what is described in Romans 7.



•   Romans 7:14 says:  Rom 7:14  For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Is that a characteristic of a Christian, everything we know a Christian to be? No. Carnal, sold under sin is outside of Christ.

Conversely, review these contrasting verses:

1Timothy 1:9 says: 1Ti 1:9  Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, etc.
1Corinthians 2:16  But we have the mind of Christ.
Philippians 2:5  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Rom 8:6 & 7  For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.



•   Romans 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Contrast the following verses:

Philippians 4:13  I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
John 15:4  Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15:5  I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Matthew 19:26  But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.



•   Romans 7:17  Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Contrast the following verses:

1Corinthians 3:16  Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Colossians 1:27  To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Romans 8:7-10  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.   But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

• Romans 7:18  For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth...
Luke 24:49  And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
2Peter 1:3  According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Timothy 1:7  For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
Ephesians 3:17 - 21  That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end.   

• Romans 7:21  I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Jas 4:7  Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8  Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

The comparison of just these few verses is stark. There are so many more verses that could be added. It is something to consider.

[colporteur]

What I have been saying that seems to me missed here is that God is looking at the heart. He will not judge incorrectly. He knows if the heart is repentant even better then man does and certainly better than bystanders do . He will take to heaven those who are safe to take to heaven is that not true ?

I have never said anything to the effect that man can sin, refuse to repent and then be saved, however you seem to think I am saying that.

When I gave the example of the person killed on the highway who was growing in Christ, being sanctificied daily and gaining victory over sin it was implied that he had a repentant heart even though he had no time to express such. Some would say that God could not save him and if He did He would have to keep him alive until he outwardly gave expression of repentance. I acknowlege that I said he died in an accident before he repented but I meant in terms of an outward expression of repentance so perhaps my statement was either misleading or else not well enough defined so as others would not get the wrong idea.  You must understand that I never ever said that we can sin, refuse to repent and be saved. However, this  is the way you take this and this is troubling.

 Regarding  #2 Let me ask this Sybil. Does not repentance begin in the heart ? Does it necessarily mean that one is repentant because he says he is sorry ? Is not the heart that God reads the true indicator ? My point is  that repentance begins in the heart and an outward show is not proof of anything.

You quoted "
"Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: for He will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma and been made like unto Gomorrah."

The above quote says nothing about the remnant backsliding into sin had time not been shortened. I have always seen that quote to mean physical survival in the face of persecution. If you have something that says time was cut short to save them from apostasizing please present it.

In terms of Venden I do not have the same theology as he and abhor what he teaches. Someone who holds his theology will also look at standards as he does. He makes fun of "those holy people." I do not.

 The  quote from the SOP about Fitch and Stockman is valid and notice again that I did not deny such a quote existed but asked that it be posted. I intend on looking at that more closely.

My point relative to this topic was that it is inconsistant to think that God would save someone who if given longer probation would live as the devil but at the same time take someone who is growing the other way, growing in Christ daily but faulters/sins along the way and simply had not time to give any outward evidence of repentance and place him in the lake of fire.  Christ will never take one who is growing in Him and seeking His face and destroy him because of a shortened probation while shortening the probation of another so he will not become evil. I'm sorry but I can never believe in one without the other. Perhaps we will have to agree to disagree. We will see will we not when it is all said and done ? 

In the mean time I think if we spent more time seeking God's face and doing His work in the field and less time placing poor slants on the posting of others we would attain that which we believe is necessary.


" None are fully converted until their characters are perfected and character perfection is the work of a lifetime. "    Do you believe that ?

[Mimi]

" None are fully converted until their characters are perfected and character perfection is the work of a lifetime. "    Do you believe that ?

No, I don't. What you appear to describe is progressive conversion. What the Bible speaks of is progressive growth in sanctification which produces character perfection.

When we are born again, that is the point of conversion. We are as babes. John 3:3; 1Peter 2:2. Born again means a transformation, a new birth in Christ Jesus. It is not progressive but it does come after a long protracted period of wooing by the Holy Spirit. Either we are converted and become a new creature in Christ or we don't. We are never a little bit converted or half-way converted or 7/8ths converted. And, we remain converted as we abide in Christ, never letting go or taking our eyes off of Him. Sanctification, however, is progressive, and IT is the work of a lifetime, where we "may grow up into him in all things." Ephesians 4:15.

[Mimi]

If you wish to stay on the topic of Romans 7 & 8, we can because we are about to launch into Romans 8. If you want to discuss other subjects, let's go to those existing individual boards.


Romans 8

Rom 8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4  That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5  For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6  For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8  So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12  Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13  For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15  For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16  The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17  And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Rom 8:18  For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19  For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20  For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21  Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22  For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23  And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24  For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25  But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Rom 8:26  Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27  And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Rom 8:28  And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31  What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32  He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33  Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34  Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35  Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36  As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37  Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38  For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39  Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[colporteur]

" None are fully converted until their characters are perfected and character perfection is the work of a lifetime. "    Do you believe that ?

No, I don't. What you appear to describe is progressive conversion. What the Bible speaks of is progressive growth in sanctification which produces character perfection.

When we are born again, that is the point of conversion. We are as babes. John 3:3; 1Peter 2:2. Born again means a transformation, a new birth in Christ Jesus. It is not progressive but it does come after a long protracted period of wooing by the Holy Spirit. Either we are converted and become a new creature in Christ or we don't. We are never a little bit converted or half-way converted or 7/8ths converted. And, we remain converted as we abide in Christ, never letting go or taking our eyes off of Him. Sanctification, however, is progressive, and IT is the work of a lifetime, where we "may grow up into him in all things." Ephesians 4:15.

Tesimonies For the Church page 505 paragraph  2      " ...... Every living Christian will advance daily in the divine life. As he advances toward perfection, he experiences a conversion to God every day: and this conversion is not completed until he attains to perfection of Christian character, a full preparation for the finishing touch of immortality."

What you feel sister is just more human reasoning is a direct quote from Inspiration. I believe it.

[colporteur]

 That was volume 2 of the Testimonies. My recollection of the quote was not word for word but close. I take no joy in debating. It tends to be destructive rather than edifying. It is my desire that we all attain that perfection that Jesus died to give us. I desire to do the will of God and that I should disappoint in no way. I wish to redeem the time and to be a stepping to stone to Him and a stumbling block to no one. I believe in victory over sin, over every sin even in a single thought, and not as an option but as a promise, an assurance, and a reality. May we die daily and reflect the character of Christ. May we be converted, and reconverted daily as we hasten the coming of the one altogether lovely, our Lord and Savior Jesus.
I love everyone on the forum and wish you the best.

Happy Sabbath to all !

[ejclark]

Tesimonies For the Church page 505 paragraph  2      " ...... Every living Christian will advance daily in the divine life. As he advances toward perfection, he experiences a conversion to God every day: and this conversion is not completed until he attains to perfection of Christian character, a full preparation for the finishing touch of immortality."
What you feel sister is just more human reasoning is a direct quote from Inspiration. I believe it.

It would seem the definition you are giving the word "conversion" is not consistent with the way Mrs. White uses it in her statement. In this statement she uses it in meaning the process of change a person's character experiences. Having to do with sanctification. In the previous passage I supplied, the definition for "conversion" is in the context of a person converting their theological ideas, or a change of heart to God and His law and makeing a "converted" decision to follow God, His laws and precepts.

Perhaps there is a misunderstanding of definitions?