It was brought to my attention, after I said I would no longer post in this thread, that there was a post made in reference to me and a prior post. Since I had left this thread, and if Christian decorum was followed, nothing else should be posted in reference to me or my posts, as it would be unknown to me and I would not be able to reply. For this reason I am now responding and posting once more.
Approximately six years ago, I left this thread because words were placed into mine and other members mouths which were never said. There was also an accusatory spirit displayed in which there was much of, “...you are, ...you said, ...you believe...”, directed towards those who differed in their interpretation of Romans 7.There was little true inquiry and study into the word of God, and much of human opinion conveyed.
This spirit has caused pain to many of our Christian brethren. I have observed after two or three posts, that this is still taking place. I am saying nothing new, for others, in their posts then and now, have made the same utterances. I say this not to offend any brother or sister, but to bring it to the attention of those who may not have recognized they were acting thus. I love you all and have no hard feelings towards any at TRO.
If we are to discuss Scripture, not just argue or condemn, we must take time to truly
study, not just read the Word First of all we have to make up our mind that we will put some time
every day into the
study of the Word of God. Make up your mind to study the Bible. The Bible is good only because of the truth that is in it, and to see this truth demands close attention. A verse must often times be read and re-read and read again before the wondrous message of love and power that God has put into it begins to appear. Words must be turned over and over in the mind before their full force and beauty takes possession of us. From doing this I have really learned the meaning of 1 Peter 1:8...”Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:”
A great many people know a part of what God has to say and usually a very small part and so their ideas are very imperfect and one sided. If they only knew all God had to say on the subject, it would be far better for them and for their friends. I can’t say how much time each should spend in study. I’m able to spend as much time as I desire in study. I try to tithe the time He has given me each day and devote at least 2 ½ hrs. every day. Sometimes when I am really deep into a subject, I have spent 8 - 10 hours. In studying God’s word, we have instructions on doing so from both the Bible and the SOP.
“There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.” Pro. 16:25
Just because we have been told what a Scripture means by someone else, or from our reading of how another person has interpreted it, does not make it true. It can effect our salvation and we need to dig into it for
ourselves.
“
Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:” Isa. 28:9 &10
In this day, we have been blessed with access to knowledge as never before. We have our Bibles, Bible dictionaries and concordances, to help us in studying. And we have something that no other people have...the Spirit of Prophecy. I like to take each verse in a chapter one at a time. I read it a number of times and then check the Bible dictionaries. Since the meaning of a word may have changed over the years, I dig into each word in that verse in my concordances, looking into the meaning and how that word, in its original language is used throughout the Bible. Next I go (if studying the N.T.) to a Greek-English Bible (from the Received Text) to read the verse in its literal meaning and wording. Then I go to a Greek-English dictionary to see how that word was used when the Apostles first wrote it, and what the meaning of that word originally meant. Sometimes this has taken several days on each verse. At last I go to the SOP and search everywhere that EGW uses that verse.
Reading what she says in regards to these verses is one of the things that convinced me that Ellen White was truly a prophet of God. With only a 3rd. grade education, many times she applies the verse just as it was used in the Greek, instead of how it is used today. This never fails to amaze me! I believe, and hope, that each of us has accepted her as God’s Messenger and that what she has advised us, comes directly from Jesus Christ. How does Christ, through EGW, tell us to read His Word?
“The truths most plainly revealed in the Bible have been involved in doubt and darkness by learned men, who, with a pretense of great wisdom, teach that the Scriptures have a mystical, a secret, spiritual meaning not apparent in the language employed. These men are false teachers. It was to such a class that Jesus declared: “Ye know not the Scriptures, neither the power of God.” Mk. 12:24. The language of the Bible should be explained according to its obvious meaning, unless a symbol or figure is employed. Christ has given the promise: “If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine.”Jo. 7:17. If men would but take the Bible as it reads, if there were no false teachers to mislead and confuse their minds, a work would be accomplished that would make angels glad and that would bring into the fold of Christ thousands upon thousands who are now wandering in error. GC 598-599
This is a strong warning from our God. How does the LORD tell us here to read His Word? He says we are to,
“take the Bible as it reads”, and it is to be,
“ explained according to its obvious meaning,” He is the Author of the Bible. Will we listen to His words, or decide we know better than He?
As previously stated, in reading Romans 7:14-25, Paul is speaking in the present tense, not the past, as is obvious from his wording. Let us look at a small part of the post directed to me:
Statement: “It is common to use the present tense when describing a past experience. I do it frequently as do other writers. And you do also.” A: No, this is not common, nor do I do this. If that were true, it would be like my describing a trip I took to Washington D.C. in the past as: ‘I am in Washington and I am standing in front of the Capitol.’(present tense) when the correct statement should be: ‘I was in Washington and I stood in front of the Capitol.’(past tense). It is illogical for a grown, mentally competent person to speak of a past incident in the present tense. If they do, we begin to doubt their sanity.
Q: “If Cop says "I am carnal, sold under sin." Does this mean that you are sold under sin today?” A: Yes, I am, according to the original Greek and the SOP.
The Messenger of God says of this verse:
“But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin." Romans 7:13-14. But though [we are carnal, we are to reckon ourselves "dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.” {ST, October 1, 1894}.
Ellen White says: “
we are carnal”. Who is the ‘we’ she refers to? If
we take it as it reads, the we is she, I, and all born-again Christians. So we here have the Lord Jesus Christ, though the Apostle Paul, telling us we are “carnal” and we have the Lord Jesus Christ again telling us we are all “carnal” through His Prophet Ellen White. Are we going to accept His word to us or reject it?
What does this verse in the Greek say? Lets break it down and see what Christ is saying to us [and I will try to be brief]...
’For we know the law is spiritual’. In this verse Paul uses two terms that are keys to understanding the whole passage under discussion. He contrasts the “spiritual” law with the “carnal” man. Especially will an understanding of the term here translated “carnal” go a long way toward unfolding the meaning of the passage.
The law is “spiritual” in that: (1) its nature derives from the holy and righteous character of God, and (2) its actual demands are upon inward righteousness rather than outward conformity. In v. 7, it says: “For I had not known lust, except the law had said, thou shalt not covet.” Of one period in his past life Paul could write that in the keeping of the law, he had been, “blameless” (Phil 3:6), so precise and conscientious had he been in holding fast to its letter. But there came a time, we can only guess as to the occasion, when the true nature of the law was brought home to him. It was then that he realized that the commandment, “Thou shalt not covet”, focuses on the motives, feelings, and thoughts; the inward disposition. Here, he realized was an area where sin, not he himself, bore sway. He was thus led to see that all the Ten Commandments have applications that go far below the surface of life.
‘But I am carnal’. This one word, ‘carnal’, is made be an area of contention as it appears to mean something wicked or evil to you. This is not what it means in the Greek. “Carnal” is a translation of the Greek
sarkinos, meaning literally, “of the substance of flesh”...fleshy. It is understood here as taking man as a whole with an emphasis upon his limitations, weaknesses, and mortality. It does not imply or suggest evil so much as the inability to do right. It is the channel through which sin controls. The great theologian, William Barclay, years ago explained it best: “flesh is that part of our nature which gives sin a bridgehead and a point of attack. The meaning of the flesh will vary from person to person. One man’s weakness may be in his body and his risk may be sexual sin; another man’s sin may be spiritual things and his risk may be in pride; another man’s sin may be in earthly things and his risk may be unworthy ambition; another man’s sin may be in his temper and his risk may be in envyings and strife. All are sins of the flesh.” [The Greek and this Bible scholar agree with the statement of Ellen White quoted above where she says: “we are carnal”.]
‘
Sold under sin’. This may be understood as having taken place in the past, but the idea is not readily seen or understood in this rendering. The tense of the Greek term reaches back into the past and extends forward to the present. Thus, Paul is saying, ‘having been sold’, as some translations render it.
All Adam’s posterity were, “sold under sin” when by disobedience the father of our race gave himself to the control of Satan. Even when a person surrenders to God, he is not entirely free from the bonds of the flesh. The difference is that sin then is no longer on the throne of his life. But it still maintains a dwelling place there.
There is one point that is necessary that we consider here. That is, the whole intent of Paul in Romans 7. It seems to be found in the last part of verse 25. Paul says: “So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh, the law of sin.” It would appear Paul is not only demonstrating the nature of the conflict with the converted person on one hand and sin on the other, but also building up to a gradually increasing emphasis in his description of the nature of the struggle in order to make utterly and unmistakably clear the truth that victory is all of Christ. To place the greatest emphasis possible on this truth, he shows that even the converted man, with all his strong desires to do right, with all his warm love for God, with all his new motives and his strongly redirected will,
cannot on his own, overcome.
Thus, as a converted man, he says, “I myself”, that is, I by myself, left to myself, will choose to keep God’s law. But I am still kept from doing it myself by sin which is in my flesh. By doing this, Paul is able to go on, in the next chapter, and raise Christ, ‘through whom we can do all things (Phil. 4:13), to the highest pinnacle in the development of his discussion on the plan of salvation. [Truly, I’ve tried to make this as brief as possible.]
Q: Is it present tense.
A: Yes
Statement: If so, then you are not abiding in Christ, you do not have the mind of Christ, and you are not in a saved condition...A: “You...you...you”, once again. I’m sorry I failed whatever test I was given here to determine if I was a Christian or not. On what grounds do you make these accusations and judgments of another? According to your words, it is because I accept these verses as they are written and being in the present tense and you do not. What is your evidence, other than in Romans 7 you do not, “
take the Bible as it reads”, and I do; and you do not read it, “
according to its obvious meaning”, and I do, as Christ directs us in the SOP? Because of this, you decide and declare I am lost? This is not in accordance with common Christian courtesy: “Whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and prophets.”
Do I say such things of you because we do not agree? No! I will not judge another’s spirituality because they do not see eye to eye with me. I do not question that you are a Christian. I do not believe you have to believe as I do in this to be a Christian, but it appears you do. I am saddened by this, my Brother.
Do I think I am totally correct in my studies and conclusions of Romans 7 and that there is no way that I could be wrong? No. I am a sinful human and can make mistakes. That is why I continue to study this wonderful book. In such subject of study, a closed mind can lead to deception and spiritual destruction. I pray often that Christ will show me if I am wrong so I can correct my understanding on this. I’m very willing to change my belief on Romans 7
if I can be shown from the Bible and SOP that I have the wrong understanding. But I will not change because of man’s opinions.
It also saddens me, but I know I will now be banned from TRO and this post will likely be partly or completely deleted. So be it...God’s will be done!
I love you all, my Brother. Good Bye and God Bless...
