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Topic suggested by Allan F--
There are many questions we all have regarding spiritual things. Some will have to wait unitl we get to heaven and some can be ansered here. How do we know which is which? What is given is the Bible is for us to know and what is not revealed is not for us to know.
Please keep this in mind as you present your questions and please remember as you present answers that we do not want speculation, but rather a "thus saith the Lord."
One last thought. There are many things of interest, but it is present truth that should occupy our minds and our energy. Please try to keep this in mind and let's not get involved in side issues and things of a controversial nature.
Please do not present questions on major doctrinal points. These will be taken up as topics on their own. There is still much to discuss. :)
In His love and grace, Richard
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Amen Richard!
We seem to have "quite abit on our plate" right now..I'm having dificulty keeping the pace! :)
Keep "the" faith!
Br. Laurie :)
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Imagine when the horses and chariots enter the battle! :) Praise God for our Saviour!
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In His love and grace, Richard
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Can anyone help me with my question:
Does the Holy Spirit dwells in man's heart before the Pentecost?
If no how can some one in the OT converted without the Holy Spirit works?
James S
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This a good question, Brother James. Many in the "evangelical" churches misunderstand this. One verse of Scripture misinterpreted does not undo the whole Bible, yet this has led to a great misunderstanding as to the work of the Holy Spirit.
I will let others answer this and show from the Bible the truth of the matter. It will prove to be a blessing to many Seventh-day Adventists as well.
In His love and grace, Richard
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I believe the Holy Spirit, who is also God, has dwelt in the hearts---and been active in the salvation---of humankind long before Pentecost. One Scripture that comes to mind is Gen. 6:3, when God said: "...My spirit shall not always strive with man...." It is apparent to me from this statement that the Spirit of God was "striving" with mankind all the way back in Genesis as the ungodly began to multiply upon the earth.
David asked God to "Cast me not away from they presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me" (Ps. 51:11). From this text, I glean that the Holy Spirit dwelt in David's heart. Otherwise, why would he ask God to "take not thy holy spirit from me?"
M.A.
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Exo 31:1-4 Then the LORD said to Moses,
"See, I have chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah,
and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts-- to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver and bronze,Num 11:16-17 The LORD said to Moses: "Bring me seventy of Israel's elders who are known to you as leaders and officials among the people. Have them come to the Tent of Meeting, that they may stand there with you.
I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take of the Spirit that is on you and put the Spirit on them. They will help you carry the burden of the people so that you will not have to carry it alone.
Num 24:2 When Balaam looked out and saw Israel encamped tribe by tribe, the Spirit of God came upon him
Deu 34:9 Now Joshua son of Nun was filled with the spirit of wisdom because Moses had laid his hands on him. So the Israelites listened to him and did what the LORD had commanded Moses.
Judg 6:34 Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet, summoning the Abiezrites to follow him.
There's more but I think this is enough.
The Holy Spirit was always there.
My favorite is :
Gen 1:2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
Pentecost was important because of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit for a period of years. It was the Early Rain.
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Thanks for the support, now if the Holy Spirit did dwell in human hearts since Adam's time, than do you agree with some thoughts that say:
We can do nothing good except it was made by the Holy Spirit that works in us. In other words, are we so bad since the fall that there are nothing good left in us including to believe and accepting the gospel.
I appreciate a good biblical support.
Your brother in Christ
James S
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Hello all-
I have a question. I was studying the other day and came accross the prophecy of Israel's captivity in Egypt. In Gen. 15:13 it says...
And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that they seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not their's and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years.
Then in Ex. 12:40,41 it says...
Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years. And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the Lord went out from the land of Egypt.
My question is how come the Genesis prophecy says 400 years and the Exodus fulfillment says 430. I thought maybe the orginal was saying about 400 years but then when Moses was telling about the fulfillment he says 'that selfsame day it came to pass'. That implies Moses thought the prophecy was being fulfilled to the letter.
I'm sure there is an explanation, I just haven't found it yet so I thought I'd pick a few brains. :)
[This message has been edited by Wendy (edited 04-11-2000).]
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Good question , Wendy.
I think the key might be in the statement' they shall inflict them 400 years(Gen.15:13)
For a time they enjoyed a peaceful life in Egypt ( because of the rep of Joseph)
In Exodus 1:8 it says'Now there arose up a new king over Egypt,which knew not Joseph.
Forgotten are all the things that Joseph did for the land,and all that remains are the descendents of Israel,so,in verse 9-11 he decides to 'afflict' because they are'more and mighter than we'.
I'm not sure how long they were there before this started, but it might help understand.
I can't prove it,but maybe Moses was including the whole time they were there?
Anyone else have any light they can shed on it? :)------------------
He is LORD!
May He come soon.
Gerry
[This message has been edited by Gerry Buck (edited 04-10-2000).]
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Sister Wendy, the SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 1, p. 314, commenting on Genesis 15:13, says: "The statement in Ex. 12:40 that 'the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years,' seems to imply that the Hebrews actually spent 430 years there, from Jacob's entry to the Exodus. That this cannot be the meaning is evident from Gal. 3:16, 17 where it is stated that the law was promulgated at sinai 430 years after the covenant between God and Abram. If Paul refers to the first promise made to Abram in Haran (Gen 12:1-3), the 430 years began when Abram was 75 years old (ch. 12:4). The 400 years of affliction would then begin 30 years later, when Abram was 105 years old and his son Isaac 5 years old (ch. 21:5)....
"The exact time from the call of Abram to Jacob's entry into Egypt was 215 years (see Gen 21:5; 25:26; 47:9), which would leave 215 years of the 430 as the actual time the Hebrews spent there. For this reason the 430 years of Ex. 12:40 must include the sojourn in Canaan as well as that in Egypt, from Abram's call to the Exodus...."
M.A.
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Thank you M.A. and Gerry,
Math is not my strong point, I'll be going over this some more to see if I can get a good grasp of the chronology. I do have one more question. I've heard a lot of debate about when Moses lived and when the exodus occured. How do they know when the Israelites went into captivity if they don't know when they came out? Does this mean our church has worked out a timeline, and if so where could you find this information?Again, thanx for the help. :)
Wendy
[This message has been edited by Wendy (edited 04-13-2000).]
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Commenting further on the 400 and 430 years, the SDA Bible Commentary, Vol. 1, p. 184 says: "Both these periods can be harmonized...if the 430 years are counted from the call of Abraham, when he was 75 years old, and if the 400 years are reckoned from 30 years later, that is about the same time when Isaac, as a small child, began to be persecuted by Ishmael after he was confirmed as the 'seed' (Gen 21:8-12).
"Popular and scholarly misunderstanding of these periods covering the sojourning and affliction of the descendants of Abraham has caused chronological confusion as to the time spent by Israel in Egypt. The interval between the call of Abram, at age 75, and the Exodus was 430 years, of which 215 had passed when Jacob went into Egypt....Therefore the remainder of the 430 years, the Egyptian sojourn, was 215 years."
Happy Sabbath.
M.A.
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Sister Paula has asked for help with a question that is an important one for all Seventh-day Adventists especially. How do we know which day is the seventh day?
I find it interesting to note that if we were to rely on what our calendars say is the seventh day, we would surely be in trouble since Satan has the "new calendar" out now that shows the Sunday to be the seventh day and Monday to be the first day. Most computer programs are doing the same. So, we want to know which day is the real seventh day and how will we support our belief?
Richard
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To know which day is the seventh day, I think we only have to ask two questions. One to a non-adventist christian and one question to the Bible.
1. Why do you keep sunday holy?
The answer from a non-adventist christian would probably be something like this: "I keep sunday holy because Jesus was raised from the dead on this day."
2. According to the Bible, when did the resurrection of Christ take place?
"Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre. And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus. And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments: And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?
He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again." (Luke 24:1-7)
We see that both the Bible and the non-adventist christians (indirectly), support the idea that the Sabbath is the seventh day.
So did also the calendar, until about 1973.
Allan F
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The Bible Sabbath
"Now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is the day before the Sabbath. Joseph of Arimathaea, an honorable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus" (Mark 15:42,43).
Most members of mainline denominations (Baptists, Methodists, etc.)will agree that Christ was crucified on Good Friday and laid in the tomb on the same evening prior to sunset.
"And when the sabbath was past Magdeline, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had brought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun...And when they looked they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great" (Mark 16:1-4).
Again, most members of other mainline denominations will agree that Christ rose on Easter Sunday morning. Now there is ONLY ONE DAY possible between Good Friday and Easter Sunday, and that day is Saturday, the Holy Sabbath Day of the Bible.
M.A.
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I have long wondered why the Lord used the story of Lazarus & the Rich man. It seems that so many well-meaning Christians have been fortified in error by this account.
On the other hand, I know that Jesus spoke only that which the Father gave Him, so there must be a purpose according to His calling for those that love Him.
gcw..?
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Hello Everyone:
I am sure that this subject has been touched on before and has been gone over before, but could you please give me some input.
I went to a former SDA church that I was baptized at for a visit last night. The subject of Grace came up and it started the same old questions and no real answers that comes up for me. This is my understanding, could you please help in where I could be in error or have misunderstanding.
Grace from God and Jesus is a free gift which we cannot earn. That I think I have got straight. It is given to every human being from the Godhead, whether we deserve it or not. BUT not all accept this free gift.
When going through the bible last night and after work, I find that the bible does not give us a definition of Grace or one that I could find. It tells us that we have it, that it comes from God and the benefits we reap from it, but there seems to be a different aspect of grace depending on the situation.
It always has been my understanding that grace is given freely from God, but that for anyone to benefit from grace, one must 1. Know it is available, 2. That we must seek it, 3. And that we can loose it by sinning.
Thanks
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Sister Liane, if there was one subject that I believe is more important than another, I would have to say it is the subject of grace. We are told that we are saved by grace so we all should want to know what grace is and how it is that we are saved by it. We shall study the subject of God's grace for eternity and will continue to gain a deeper understanding of this wonderful gift.
Let me ask a question to start our minds headed in the right direction. When God the Father looked down upon Adam and Eve when they disobeyed Him, what did He do?
Now, whatever you say He did, I ask what good did Adam and Eve do that He should do this?
Let us review the situation. God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit from the one tree or they would die. The wages of sin is death. Sin is the transgression of the law. God had given them but one test, the tree in the midst of the garden. The death spoken of is eternal death. They both deserved to die immediately and eternally. Why did they not die? Did God change His law? Did He then say as the devil did, if you sin you shall not surely die? No, He did not change His law, but rather made a provision for Adam and Eve to gain back eternal life. This opportunity could not negate the claim of the broken law. Justice would have to be met, but there was another option that the Godhead had made provision for. Jesus would pay the price for Adam and Eve's sin. He would die in their place and give them temporary life to regain their lost treasure of eternal life.
What did Adam do to deserve this offer? Or better yet what could Adam do to deserve this gift? The wages of sin is death. Adam could do nothing to offset this. He must die. There was only one provision that could be made to save Adam and that was for Jesus to die in His place. What did Adam have that could pay for the death of Jesus? Can anyone suggest a price or anything that would pay for Jesus to die? Of course not. There is nothing anyone could do that would even come close to paying for the death of the Son of God. Jesus and God the Father gave freely the life of Christ for our salvation. We could give all we have and there is nothing that could pay for the death of Jesus. Then since Jesus and the Father did not receive payment for this work, then what can we call it?
Can we call it a gift? Yes, but is it not more than a gift? Are not gifts sometimes given to those that are deserving of a gift? Yes, all the time. The gift of Christ was not deserved. Adam deserved to die. He had nothing to bring to God. Jesus died for Adam while he was yet a sinner. Adam could only accept the gift. There is a word that describes this action by God, it is grace. It is unmerited favor. We do not deserve anything but death. All have sinned and all deserve death. It is grace that is freely given while we are yet sinners deserving of death.
Sister Liane, I think you follow this and there would probably be little need to share it, but it is difficult to follow through in the plan of salvation, so let us build upon a solid foundation.
In regards to grace you said, "It is given to every human being from the Godhead, whether we deserve it or not." It is given to all, we are granted temporary life. This is grace and it cost. Do you see that your statement "...whether we deserve it or not" is not quite accurate? Grace implies we do not deserve it.
Let's go on to the action of grace upon the sinner. It is the goodness of God that leads the sinner to repentance which is revealed by a changed life. The fruits of the Spirit are manifested in the converted person's life. What is the goodness of God? Is it not His grace? As we behold the love of God for us, it changes our heart. This is called the "new birth" or "conversion", or a "new heart." It comes about as a result of the revelation of God's grace, His unmerited favor towards the children of men.
It would be good to spend a thoughtful hour each day contemplating the life of Jesus. By beholding this great love (grace) we will become like Him.
Last point: "And that we can loose it by sinning." No, you cannot lose grace by sinning. You have lost the effect of grace upon the heart, so there is no abding in Christ and the power to resist sin is gone. Grace surrounds the sinner awaiting to be seen. Grace is not withdrawn until probation closes. Grace is continual and constant. It is available to the sinner for the taking. If one were not sick, he would not need a doctor. With our fallen nature we are in great need of medicine and that medicine is grace. The love of Jesus is never merited, it just is. Angels in heaven do not know of God's grace as we do, for they have never sinned.
I pray this helps to reveal the character of our God in a fuller manner than you had known before. Grace is more than a word, it is the transforming power that changes our hard hearts into new soft ones. :) We need fresh stores of grace each day.
In His love and grace, Richard
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Building upon what I shared last night, I want to add something from my devotions this morning. In commenting upon the death of Christ, the Spirit of Prophecy states "Even before he took humanity upon Him, He saw the whole length of the path He must travel in order to save that which was lost. Every pang that rent His heart, every insult tht was heaped upon His head, every privation that he was called to endure, was open to His view before He laid aside His crown and royal robe, and stepped down from the throne, to clothe His divinity with humanity. The path from he manger to Calvary was all before His eyes." "...yet for the joy that was set before Him, He chose to endure the cross." And what was that joy?
In His love and grace, Richard
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Hi Richard,
I was really enjoying your post to Liane on the subject of grace until...
You wrote: "Grace is not withdrawn until probation closes."
Really Richard? And from which Scriptures may we glean such truth, if it is truth???
You called grace 'unmerited favor', which indeed it is. You also equated grace with 'love', which it is. Are you then advocating that God's unmerited favor and love will be withdrawn at some point in time?
Forever in His love, for He will never leave nor forsake me.
For He Alone is Worthy!
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Brother dwayne, you are correct. I was wrong. Grace will not be withdrawn when probation closes. Grace will still be the power that keeps the sinner from sinning. My thought should have been better expressed. Grace will be withdrawn from those who have rejected it. It will no longer be offered to those who cannot receive it. There will be no more forgiveness of sin. Mercy will no longer be mingled with justice.
Since the 144,000 still live in sinful flesh, grace will be needed to maintain their experience with Jesus. They have learned their great need of Jesus and will keep their eyes upon Him. Self will remain hid in Christ and while they will not need forgiveness of new sins, they will need the abiding presence of the Saviour, for without Him, they like us, can do no good thing.
I appreciate the opportunity to clarify the issue. We do not want to misrepresent the truth. Thank you, Brother dwayne for bringing this to my attention. Have a good Sabbath.
In His love and grace, Richard
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Hi Richard,
Thank you for restating your thoughts. I was reasonably sure that you made an unintentional faux pas, but then we can never be too careful when it comes to representing our great and wonderful God, Amen!?! God bless you and happy sabbath.
For He Alone is Worthy!
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Thanks to Richard & Dwayne:
God's Arithmetic regarding Grace:
He (meaning us) is to add grace to grace, and as he thus works on the plan of addition, God works for him on the plan of multiplication. AA532
I will be going back to read more, but here are a few words from SOP
MH 161
Grace is an attribute of God exercised toward underserving human beings. We did not seek for it, but it was sent in search of us. God rejoices to bestow His grace upon us, not because we are worthy, but because we are so utterly unworthy. Our only claim to His mercy is our great need.
SM I-381-382
Effort and labor are required on the part of the receiver of God's grace, for it is the fruit that makes manifest what is the character of the tree.
SM I-366
Without the grace of Christ, the sinner is in a hopeless condition, nothing can be done for him...please read on the rest of it.
SM I-372
Without the grace of Christ it is impossible to take one step in obedience to the law of God.
SM III-150
Some seem to feel that they must be on probation...before they can claim His blessings. But these dear souls may claim the blessing of God even now. They must have His grace, the spirit of Christ to help their infirmities or they cannot form Christian characters.
You all have read or heard the "Once saved always saved" belief. My concern from this pastor is that everyone has grace whether they know it or not. And are saved because of it.
I am not standing in judgement of my sister, but only going by the evidence presented to me, only God knows the soul and heart of a person, but my sister, who is agnostic, believes that because she prays to God and she is a good girl, that she will go to heaven, that could well be, but she will not read the bible and she thinks of Jesus as just a good teacher, but not the Son of God. If we do not accept the grace or His word, as stated above "Without the grace of Christ, the sinner is in a hopeless condition, nothing can be done for him" must apply.
No, we cannot do anything to deserve grace, it is a gift given by God from His love for us, but I believe that we have to acknowledge grace, such as the thief on the cross for it to have it's power in our lives. It is my understand that we cannot have grace and sin at the same time.
My concern in this class that night was that no matter what we do, we cannot loose grace. Now I know that words can be confusing and my wording could be saying one thing and I understand it another way, but, please help me: God's grace is abundant, it is poured out like rivers to all, but we must accept it for it to be of any benefit to us and once we allow God's grace into our lives, it transforms the character to salvation.
My concern is that if we do not have a correct understanding of grace, that we could end up going down a road that does not lead us to Christ or salvation.
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Sister Liane, I agree and it is very important that we not only get the concepts right, but the words also.
Grace is like electricity. As long as it remains in the receptacle the light will not shine. Grace, not received into the heart will not produce the fruit of Christ in the life. We need the revelation of God's love continually or we shall wither. We need to feed upon Christ or we shall die spiritually. Grace is available, the Holy Spirit is revealing, but if we do not listen, then how shall we be changed daily, moment by moment? We will not. We must abide in Christ.
Grace is more than a word, it is the power that transforms the character and it cannot be stored. The lamp must be continually fed in order to shine. We must stay our minds upon Christ. As we look to Jesus, we receive grace. We live to glorify Him who gave all for us. Break the connection and self rises up. We can do all things through Christ who lives in us, but without Jesus in us, (the Holy Spirit) we cannot do one good thing. We are sinful and selfish. God the Father provided a remedy for our situation, His innocent Son, Jesus Christ.
He knocks on the door of the heart wanting in. Shall we listen for the knock. Shall we let Him in today? Yes!
In His love and grace, Richard
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Once again, I find myself compelled to post a concern in reference to this topic of grace.
Sister Liane,
You wrote "It is my understand that we cannot have grace and sin at the same time."
I realize that you intend this to only be your understanding and I accept that.
However, I would like to point out that Scripture tells us: where sin abounded, grace abounded much more (Check out Romans chapter 5). And what can be a more supreme demonstration of God's grace for those with sin than the cross event!
"But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8
Indeed, we need grace because we have sin! We DO have grace and sin at the same time, or we would have no hope of salvation. God's grace will never cease, for grace is love. And God is LOVE!
For He Alone is Worthy!
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Hi Dwayne:
Thanks for your reply. I agree with you about grace. But remember SM 1 where EGW says that without grace a sinner is a hopeless case.
When I speak of these words I think of my sister who is an agnostic who does not want to read the bible, believes that Christ was a great teacher and my mother who became Jewish and rejected Christ.
When I was yet a sinner Christ's grace was there to help me through those difficult times when I would have given up on my own merit. I did not understand it at the time, but it was there because of simple belief that I accepted Jesus and His atonement for me. That was even long before I was an Adventist, before I even knew or understood the atonement and learned all the other wonderful things about Him that I never knew as a mainstream Christian.
My point was that the pastor that had the class gives the impression that my mother and sister would be saved because of Christ's grace and that he gives it freely to everyone even if they do not accept it. In part that is true, but it does not mean they will be saved.
I cannot judge my sister or my mother, they have been through hell and back along with me. From incest of my sister and me from our father, my rape as a teenager, my hearing impairment and all the pain it has caused me throughout my life, physical and emotional abuse, kidnapping of my half brother and sister from my stepfather, I often wondered if my mother had saneness of mind by the time she died. And as for my sister she lives in fear of her fears, has deepset emotional problems.
It is but for the grace of God that I am alive today, for I had attemted suicide several times in my younger years. If it was not for His loving kindness that when He reach to me I was willing to reach back. If I had rejected Him I do not think I would be alive today. More than anything I would love for my father, and I know he died of acoholism and cardio embolism at 42, my mother who died at 65 due to heart disease and my sister as well as my half sister and brother where ever they are, would all be with me, but what can I say, it is for God to judge, not myself, I will only be able to look at the records, if they are not there and see why the decision was made. I have to trust in His judgement, not mine.
My other concern is that some people may take that they can continue in sin and still be saved. This goes to the very heart of the 144,000 and the period of time when probation closes and Jesus comes. Can we "knowingly" sin and still be saved. We all have sinned and need a saviour, but does God save us IN our sins or FROM our sins?
I know that my sister feels that God loves her and she prays to him, but what god does she pray to? My sister hates organized religions, she laughs at my beliefs often on the phone. Thinks that I am brainwashed. I can understand that my mother resented Jesus because He allowed my stepfather to steal her children from her and did not protect her, so she rejected him by joining the Jewish faith.
It is any wonder that my sister even wants to talk to me on the phone, but she does. I finally had to tell her that I do not laugh at her when she talks about evolution, I did think it right for her to laugh at what I believe. She at least apologized. At least we talk, I hope that someday she will understand and that someday it will rub off on her, but she has a husband that does not believe in God and hates all religions. She has to live with him, I don't.
Well this sorry story has to end, but what I have said, does it make more sense? But if you can clear up some misunderstanding on my part, please, please show me.
Liane
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Liane,
May God's grace overwhelm us forever! Thank you for sharing your intimate concerns for your family and for revealing your in-depth love for Jesus Christ. You are a walking/talking testimony of God's love and grace.I thank God that He has given me this opportunity to 'listen' to you, Liane, as I find myself with a renewed appreciation of others and their burdens. Mercy does triumph over judgment.
God bless you as you continue to place all your trust in Him.
For He Alone is Worthy!
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Dwayne:
Thank you for your encourgement. It is greatly appreciated. It has been a very long and hard life for me, but it is because of God's grace that I live. He has forgiven me 7 x 70 many times over. I thank him for it.
Many of take life and what is given and we use it for or against Christ. As I watch people and see how they react to hard times, I have to greive as they take these wrong turns when the blessing of heaven await them. God has been good to us as a church with rich blessings of truth that no other can know or understand, yet. But when the Loud Cry and the Latter Rain enrich the earth with the glory of God many will see. We must be ready and willing to give a word to them so that they will understand and receive salvation and share a life of eternity with our Lord who gave so much. We give so little in return, sometimes I wonder why He did it, but he must and does love us very much. I thank Him everyday for it.
Thanks again
Liane
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Sister Liane, you are to be commended for having the courage to share with us in this forum a very personal (and, may I add, heart-wrenching) part of your earlier life. You have gone through things that would have crushed the ordinary human being, but because you went through these experiences I believe you have become a stronger, and even better, person because you can now empathize with others, speak from experience, and teach the downtrodden and the hopeless how they can overcome anything in this life by holding on to the unchanging Hand of God.
Let me briefly comment on a statement you made in one of your posts. I believe the Bible does define grace in the all too familiar text in Ephesians 2:8 which reads: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD." Emphasis mine.
Grace is a gift from God, meaning we can do nothing to earn it. You stated the same thing in your post dated 06-15-2000 at 07:22 PM when you said: "Grace from God and Jesus is a free gift which you cannot earn. This I think I have got straight." And you most certainly do have it straight. It does not matter how many "good deeds" we do in this life. They WILL NEVER merit God's Grace because we cannot do anything to earn It. All of our so-called "righteousness" are but filthy rags in His Sight (Isa. 64:6) because "there is none righteous, no not one" (Rom. 3:10), except Jesus Christ our Lord. This is why the ONLY WAY we can become righteous and be saved is to copy after His Example in our everyday living because we have no righteousness in and of ourselves.
May God continue to richly bless you as you continue to follow after His Example.
Happy Sabbath.
M.A.
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Thanks for your post M>A>
I understand what you are saying when you quote Isa 64:6, but I sometimes find it a hard verse to understand.
We are, when we accept Christ as our saviour, we become the Sons and Daughters of God, part of a royal priesthood.
When people see us, they should be seeing Christ in us, the glory of God should so reflect in our very being and acts that they do not see us, but see God. Any deeds that I do, must be seen by others as a reflection of God's work in us. Without that light, people would not have any desire to become Christians.
But at first, because they do not understand the light, they only see good people that have a love for God, but as they grow they realize that it is not these people they saw, but God in us that they really saw.
How I handled the car accident, was a reflection of God working in my life. I feel very much like Job right now, having been given an opportunity see from all the blessing that I have been receiving from God with my health would stand fast. I know the accident was my fault. It would be so easy to blame God, to try to put some of the blame on the other person to get out of it, if I could, but I must let God purify my heart and accept the good and bad that happened with this accident. There were so many blessings from this accident, you could see God's hand in it. I could have looked at the dark side of this and become very depressed over the whole thing, but I did not. God is good, I am alive to testify still of His goodness.
I want to see only the transformation that is taking place with the refining fire that He is molding me in. I have felt like filthy rags all of my life. I know this is a personal pain for me, and does not reflect from what you are saying, I understand, but I like to see the part that glorfies God and I want people to see that in me, so they will reach out and say her God is truly good.
And I do this in a humble way, because I know what it is like to have the form of godliness and not the spirit of it, I am a living and breathing testimony of one who knew the truth that God had so generously given and did not. I sat back, ate what I wanted, did what I wanted and it almost killed me in obesty, diabetes and a host of other illnesses that would have come before that death would have occured.
I know that I have alot of growing to do and many things to overcome, but with God all things are possible in those that believe in HIM.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts because I learn from everything that I read here.
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Keep on doing what you are doing, Sister Liane. God shall continue to bless as we continue to give Him the praise, honor, and the glory for---if nothing more---just being alive!
Not just you, but all of us have a lot of growing up to do in Christ because (thankfully) God is not through with us yet. He simply desires to save us IF we would but give Him the glory, which brings me to my next point.
All of our "righteousness" are as filthy rags in His Sight because we are sinners, saved by grace, and have no righteousness of our own that will merit with God. This is why it is of paramount importance that we give God the glory IN ALL THAT WE SAY AND DO that glorifies Him. We copy after the example of Christ and His Righteousness because our so-called "righteousness" doesn't count with God. ONLY what we do for Christ will last!
May God continue to bless and keep you.
M.A.
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I have a question...
I was discussing our beliefs about the resurrection of the righteous vs. the resurrection of the wicked at the end of the millennium the other day with someone who believes quite differently. I mentioned that we believe if a person dies not knowing the "full truth", but lives up to all that they know to be true, loving God and following Him to the best of their knowledge, that there is a possibility they would be saved. We don't know, but God does. I guess I was trying to convey the idea that God judges a person according to the light they have (or had). Am I correct in my understanding, and if so, where can I find scriptural support for this? It seems to me I once heard something, a bible verse maybe, referring to people in heaven who would wonder where Jesus' scars came from?? The person I was having the discussion with believes there will be a mass resurrection of not only the righteous but the unrighteous who did not have the chance to learn the whole truth before death, so they can be taught the truth at which point they can decide whether to follow God or not. I know there's nothing in the Bible to support this. But then it makes you wonder about all those people (like the Native Americans before Christianity came to this continent, or anywhere else before Christianity spread) who didn't know Christ but followed what they DID know. Y'know?? :) Well, hopefully someone can help me out here, it's been bothering me and I'm having a hard time finding scriptures on it. Thanks
~Nichole
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Sister Nichole
Purity of heart is the change when we accept the Spirit of Jesus into our hearts. "To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin." "If we walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin."
Have to run. Hope this helps some. Will continue later.
In His love and grace, Richard
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"...we believe if a person dies not knowing the 'full truth,' but lives up to all that they know to be true...that there is a possibility they would be saved....I guess I was trying to convey the idea that God judges a person according to the light they have (or had). Am I correct in my understanding...?"
The Bible says: " He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mark 16:16). These are the Words of Jesus, and I believe this simple prescription for salvation with all my heart.
Salvation is not based upon which denomination or "brand" of religion we subscribe to. These things do not save or have any redeeming value. Salvation is based on believing on Jesus and ordering one's life after His Example (1 John 2:6).
I am a member of the Seventh-day Adventist Church---not because I believe the church can save me--but, because this church teaches the WAY to salvation better than any denomination I know. It teaches us that the way to eternal life is through Jesus Christ our Lord (John 14:6). There is no other way!
The Bible and Jesus Christ are basically one and the same because One is the Written Word and the other is the Living Word, BUT THEY BOTH ARE THE WORD, which brings me to my main point.
TRUE BELIEF will manifest itself in the life that is lived. Therefore, belief in Jesus Christ (following after His Example) and the Word of God (ordering one's steps after the Word) are all that is required to be saved. Consequently, there will be many who will be saved in God's Kingdom who did not have as much "light" as we but will be saved anyway, BECAUSE THEY WERE CHRISTIANS more so than religionists!
The Great God of the Universe knows EVERY HEART. He knows that if these individuals had been given a chance to know and understand advanced light (the Sabbath and other Bible-based doctrines) as we know it, they would have lovingly followed after this light. This is why they will be saved: because they loved God and DEMONSTRATED that love in their everyday living.
M.A.
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This is a brief response to a statement on being saved made earlier which read: "...But then it makes you wonder about all those people (like the Native Americans before Christianity came to this continent, or anywhere else before Christianity spread) who didn't know Christ but followed what they DID know...."
I remember reading somewhere that angels of the True and the Living God have come to this earth to teach unreachable groups, similar to the one described above, about Jesus Christ and salvation. I can see where the great God of the Universe, who knows the hearts of men and women, would dispatch holy angels to come to this planet to teach groups He knew that would not have the oportunity to learn of Him otherwise.
I believe that, because God is love and will do all He possibly can to save us---any of us---to the utmost if we would but place ourselves in the proper spiritual posture to receive Him.
M.A.
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Sister Nichole, yours is a really good question and the answer reveals the loving character of our God. The Holy Spirit is in the world. True? He is convincing all of sin, righteousness, and judgment. It is a Bible verse (John 16:8). In worldly language He is the conscience. If one responds to His voice and walks in the light that comes, then he will be led to see there is a power outside of himself and that humanity is selfish. He will be led to see that power having created the sun, moon, and stars and....the flowers, the trees, the animals and the fishes. He causes the rain to fall and the crops to grow. He causes love to grow in our hearts for those whom He created.
It may be few that can find God without a Bible, but it is not because God is not speaking to the world. He is. Let us look at the Book of Romans, chapter one verse 20. "For the invisible things of Him from the creation of he world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" and 2:14,15: "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts...."
I hope this helps to reveal the great love that God has for even those who never heard the name Jesus. They too, may be in heaven if they will yield themselves to the Spirit of God.
Richard
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Hello brothers and sisters
I have enjoyed reading the posts in this thread...May I add sort of a thought/question?
My Bible reads that by grace we are saved "THROUGH FAITH." (Eph.2:8-9). We are NEVER saved through "grace alone." Many people say that; but where does the Bible say "by grace alone?"
If my observation is correct, then what is meant by "through faith?" And what would that imply for 2 Pet.3;18 which exhorts us to "grow in grace?" :)
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"The joy of the Lord will be your strength." (Neh.8:10).
Your brother in Christ
David T. Battler
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Amen, Brother David. If we do not avail ourselves of the opportunity to SEE that grace each day, how shall we be saved, since it is by grace that we are saved? We have a part to act in our salvation. If we do nothing we shall be lost.
Richard
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The Bible does not say we are saved by grace alone. The word "alone" does not appear in Ephesians 2:8, 9. There is a reason for this. The Bible also says: "For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope..."( Rom. 8:24).
Faith is believing and trusting in God and taking him at His Word WITHOUT RESERVATION.
We are to "grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ..." (2 Peter 3:18). As our faith in God increases so will our growth in grace increase.
M.A.
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Amen, Brother Crawford, if we do not believe in the power of God's grace to keep us doing right, then we have not enough faith to enter heaven. Amen! :) God's grace, His goodness, His unmerited favor towards us while we were yet sinners will bring a clean thing out of an unclean thing! It sounds impossible, but by faith we are to believe.
In His love and grace, Richard
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Some of our readers might say in their minds: "Yeah, that may be easy for you to say but what about those of us who are not quite as spiritually advanced as others? How do we grow in grace? How do we develop faith in God?" The answer to both questions is not as difficult as it may seem.
CHRIST IS THE ANSWER! He came to this earth and left us an example that, if followed 100%, would lead to eternal life. So now all we have to do is very carefully copy what He would do in every department of our lives: where we go, what we do, what we say, and even what we think. The question we are to ask each time we make a decision in one or more of the departments above is: WOULD CHRIST DO (SAY OR THINK) THIS? If the answer is no, then neither should we!
The way to salvation and eternal life is not hard at all. Jesus said "I am the way." What has happened in many instances is there are some who want to "burn the candle at both ends." But the Bible says: "No man can serve two masters..." (Luke 16:13). It is not possible to hold on to God's unchanging Hand while "looking back" (as did Lot's wife) and cherishing some of our "pet sins" that we are unwilling to let go (such as how some "Christians" mistreat one another, for example).
If we are serious about growing in grace and strengthening our faith in God, the Holy Spirit will recognize this and will assist us in both. But neither will be accomplished overnight. EVERY DAY we must ask God for a fresh supply of grace and faith for that particular day. Our minds must constantly be "in Heavenly places" because "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (John 4:24).
Happy sabbath.
M.A.
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Amen!!! Fresh stores of grace each day. We can not store grace. We need Jesus every day! If we would spend that thoughtful hour a day with Jesus, we would learn of His love and His grace would transform our characters!!
Amen, Brother Crawford, amen.
Richard
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Paula asked for help with proof -Sabbath Sunday issue. Richard said he would put the issue over here and see the responce.
Jesus was crucified on Friday (the 6th day of the week), He slept in the tomb on the Sabbath the seventh day of the week; He rose from the dead on Sunday the first day of the week.
Get the video called "the Seventh Day ...Revelations from the lost pages of history." produced by LLT . Go through Tagnet to locate LLT. Did you know that each day has a hebrew name to deliniate it's time relationship to the Sabbath ?
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Ed Sutton
[This message has been edited by Edward F. Sutton (edited 09-11-2000).]
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Posted for Brother Crawford---
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A brother with whom I have corresponded asked me to post the following message in this forum: "1 Peter 3:19 and 1 Peter 4:6 seem to indicate that (the) gospel was proclaimed to the dead which means the dead are aware of things (contrary) to what David said that the dead know nothing. I would appreciate some response to this question. Thank you."
M.A.
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"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometimes were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." 1 Peter 3:18-20.
These texts of Scripture do not say that Christ went and preached to lost souls in hell between His crucifixion and resurrection. What they do say is the preaching was done "by the Spirit" (v. 18) in Noah's day to people who were then living (vs. 19, 20). The term "spirits in prison" refers to people whose lives were in bondage to Satan. See Psalms 142:7; Isaiah 42:6, 7; 61:1; and Luke 4:18. (see slso Are The Dead Really Dead? AFBSG, p.13).
Commenting on the above texts, the SDA Bible Commentary says: "Some hold that ch. 3:18-20 and ch. 4:6 support the doctrine of an immortal soul and consciousness after death, and that during the interval between the crucifixion and the resurrection Christ descended into Hades, the figurative realm of the dead (see on Matt. 11:23), to preach to disembodied spirits languishing there. But the logic of this view demands that the 'spirits' here referred to be in some sort of purgatory at the time Christ preached to them and that the purpose of His preaching was to give them a second chance to be saved and thus to escape from purgatory....Those who maintain that Peter here supports their belief in the so-called natural immortality of the soul must also explain why Christ would be partial to the 'spirits' of dead sinners of Noah's time and not give to those of other generations a similar opportunity.
"The Scriptures plainly teach that a man must accept salvation IN THIS PRESENT LIFE, if at all, and that his personal probation closes at death (see on Matt. 16:27; Luke 16:26-31; Rom. 2:6; Heb. 9:27; cf. Eze. 18:24; Rev. 22:12). They also plainly teach that the dead are not conscious (see on Ps. 146:4; Eccl. 9:5, 6; Matt. 10:28; John 11:11; 1 Thess. 4:13; cf. on Gen. 2:7; Eccl. 12:7). Accordingly, to make these 'spirits' out to be disembodied conscious beings able to hear and accept the gospel, contradicts numerous plain teachings of Scripture..." (Emphasis mine).
"For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." 1 Peter 4:6.
1 Peter 4:6 DOES NOT say the Gospel was preached to dead people. Let's look at the text of Scripture very carefully. What it does say is the Gospel "was" preached to those who "are" dead. "They are dead now, but the gospel 'was' preached to them while they were yet living" (see Are The Dead Really Dead? AFBSG, p. 12.
M.A.
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I hope that this is the place for this question. My husband and I have recently been reading through Uriah Smith's Daniel and Revelation book. My husband had a question that I must have missed in my reading, but to which we can't find the answer. I'll try to be as clear as possible.
Daniel 11 talks about the King of the South and the King of the North. Smith interpreted South as Egypt, north as Turkey (which seems to be pretty standard SDA interpretation). Daniel 11:45 says, ". . . yet he [king of the north] shall come to his end, and none shall help him." The Ottoman Empire was carved up in 1922, with no one coming to its rescue. Smith's book was obviously written before this event, but we have an edition from 1944, yet this part of the book is still left as if it is open to interpretation. I had missed this point, as I am not the historian in the family. My husband, the historian, says it is jumping out at him.
The real point comes in Daniel 12:1, the next verse, which says, "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." This suggests that the priestly duties of Jesus are complete and he stands up as the king. What is the relation of this verse to the work in the sanctuary? Is the work ongoing? Are we still in the time of "probation"? How do we understand this verse? I have tried to research it further, but don't really know where to look.
I come up with Rev. 22:11, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." This is given in the context of the immediacy of Christ's return, and the commentary in Smith's book says that the probation ends with the judging of the currently living people. If this is the case, how could anyone born after 1922 be judged, if Jesus left the sanctuary at the time of the overthrow of the Ottoman Empire?
Does this question even make sense? Do I need to reword it? I'd appreciate it if some of you scholars could head us in the right direction here.
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Without interpreting Daniel 11, I would like to make comment on Daniel 12:1. It is future. Probation for the world has not closed. :)
Jesus' coming is soon. Very little is left in prophecy before the second coming. We are on the edge of eternity. There is still time to accept Christ and to allow Him to fit us for the judgment which is underway. Soon, it will be too late, character will be fixed for eternity.
Just for the moment, I will give one indication that probation for the world has not closed. The last test to come to mankind before probation closes is a national Sunday law in the U.S. and then worldwide. The image to the beast must first be formed, and it is, just as we speak. Protestants are forming a union with Roman Catholicism and spiritualism. The United States is rejecting it's heritage as a Protestant nation. Soon all will have decided and their election will be made sure.
Others may comment on Daniel 11.
In His love and grace, Richard
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It is widely recognized among our Biblical scholars that we, as a church, made a colossal blunder in our original interpretation of Turkey.. The ongoing revelation of time made necessary, as I understand it, a reinterpretation of this passage.
Dr.'s Hans LaRondelle and Jon Paulien could speak to this issue far better than I. I may email Jon and pose the question to him. I'll pass any answer on to you...
This is not to lead to disconfidence in the works of brother Uriah Smith. His contribution in the Advent movement is without chicanery.
brother Gerry
(Just back from the Outer Banks of North Carolina after a 2-week exhale). :)
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"What is the relation of this verse to the work in the sanctuary? Is the work ongoing? Are we still in the time of 'probation'? How do we understand this verse?"
To take the last question first, we understand this verse (Dan. 12:1) by permitting the Bible to interpret itself. This is done primarily by way of Bible reaearch, and sometimes with the assistance of the spirit of prophecy writings of Ellen G. White.
"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:..."
To add to what already has been said, most Seventh-day Adventists will concur that Michael is another name for Christ because there is ONLY ONE PRINCE who stands for the people. Rev. 12:7 tells us: "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels." There are only two forces that command angels: the god of this world called Satan (v. 9), and the Son of man "who shall come in the glory of his father with his angels" (Matt. 16:27).
When Christ stands up, His mediatoral work in the Most Holy Place of the Heavenly Sanctuary will have ended. He lays aside His priestly garments and dons His kingly apparel as He proclaims: " He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still" (Rev. 22:11) as He prepares to return to this earth to gather His redeemed (GC, p. 613).
"...and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation...."
When Christ stands up, probation will have closed for the inhabitants of the earth, and there shall come a time of trouble such as never was, meaning calamity like this has never happened before. I believe the Seven Last Plagues of Revelation 16 shall occur at this time. Ellen White tells us that the people of God will not be immune to the discomfort and distress that shall take place during this time. She states that: "The people of God will then be plunged into those scenes of affliction and distress described by the prophet as the time of Jacob's trouble." Jeremiah 30:5-7. (GC, p. 616). BUT THE GOOD NEWS IS...!
"...and at that time thy people shall be delivered, everyone that shall be found written in the book."
Isn't that good news? God IS NOT going to leave His people to perish at the hands of evil men and women during this time of trouble. The Bible tells us that EVERYONE shall be delivered whose name shall be found written in the Book of Life!
THIS is the GOOD NEWS today just prior to that time to those who are being persecuted, misused, abused, and suffering at the hands of those who are led by the enemy. The word is: HOLD ON, just a little while longer. GOD SHALL NOT LEAVE HIS PEOPLE! Everyone shall be delivered, "everyone that shall be found written in the book."
M.A.
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If I may jump right in I would like to answer the first question that was asked in this thread by James S. and also address the question relating to the king of the south and the king of the north in Dan.11.
The first question, Was the Holy Spirit given in the Old Testament? The Scripture which is usually quoted in this reference is John 7:39. "But this spake He of the Holy Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive: FOR THE HOLY GHOST WAS NOT YET GIVEN; BECAUSE THAT JESUS WAS NOT YET GLORIFIED."
First, Titus 2:11 says that "The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men." The grace of God is the Spirit of God. Speaking of the wise virgins we read: "The latter class had received the grace of God, the regenerating, enlightening power of the Holy Spirit." G.C.394. "They must have His grace, the Spirit of Christ to help their infirmities or they cannot form a Christian character." F.W.38.
But what does Jonn mean when He says that the Holy Spirit was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified? It means that the Holy Spirit was not given in its fullness! "During the patriarchal age the influence of the Holy Spirit had often been revealed in a marked manner, but NEVER IN ITS FULLNESS. Now, in obedience to the word of the Savior, the disciples offered their supplications for this gift, and in Heaven Christ added His intercession. He claimed the gift of the Spirit, that He might pour it upon His people. The Spirit came upon the waiting, praying disciples with a fullness that reached every heart." A.A.37,38.
Following the coronation of Christ in Heaven, the Holy Spirit was poured out in its fullness. This is what the prophets of the Old Testaments said they had not received and therefore it is written: "Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who PROPHESIED OF THE GRACE THAT SHOULD COME UNTO YOU: searching what, or what manner of time THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST, WHICH WAS IN THEM did signify, when it testifed beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and THE GLORY THAT SHOULD FOLLOW. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things which are now being reported unto you by them... which things the angels desire to look into." 1 Peter 1:10-12.
The prophets were studying the scriptures in order to know the times when the Holy Spirit would be given in its fullness! This event took place at Pentecost. Since then the fullness of the Holy Spirit is offered to us through faith in the merits of the Savior. T.M.96,97.
James, did that help you in any way? :)
[This message has been edited by adventbeliever (edited 02-19-2001).]
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Now the second question I would like to address is the one relating to the king of the south and the king of the north in Dan.11:40. I believe that in order to discover the true identity of these kings in the context of Dan.11:40, one must study history. The chapter THE FRENCH REVOLUTION from THE GREAT CONTROVERSY provides us with answers. First, I suggest you turn to G.C. p.356 where it is stated that 1798 is "the time of the end" referred to in Dan.11:40. Then in the other chapter, between pages 265 and 276, and pages 286,287, it is clearly stated that Atheistic France, "spiritually" Egypt, was the king of the south in 1798 and that the papacy was the king of the north. After all, it should not be too difficult to convince any SDA that it was General Berthier who in 1798 entered Rome and took the Pope into captivity and who died in exile.
It is the papacy, the king of the north, who, in the end, at the time of the fifth and sixth plagues, "shall come to his end, and no one will help him." Dan.11:45. It is at that time that "thick darkness" will fall upon the earth and then when the wicked see the rainbow spanning the heavens and hovering over the people of God, they will fall at their feet and acknowledged that God has loved them. Then they will turn against the papacy and the false prophet (apostate protestantism) and the swords which were to slay God's people will then be employed to destroy their enemies. Everywhere there is strife and bloodshed. G.C.656.
"With shouts of triumph, jeering, and imprecation, throngs of evil men are about to rush upon their prey, when, lo, a dense blackness, deeper than the darkness of the night, falls upon the earth. (fifth plague) Then a rainbow, shining with the glory from the throne of God, spans the heavens and seems to encircle each praying company. The angry multitudes (the waters of Rev.17:15) are suddenly arrested (this is the drying up of the river Euphrates). Their mocking cries die away. The objects of their rage are forgotten. With fearful forebodings they gaze upon the symbol of God's covenant and long to be shielded from its overpowering brightness." G.C.635,636.
Daniel 11:40-45 is a picture of entire world conquest by the king of the north, namely, the Papacy, and her complete demise at the hand of her own supporters. As the king of the north conquers the world, he shall even enter into the "glorious land" which today is the professed church of God. Dan.11:41. He shall have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. Dan.11:30. Could this verse be referring to the Omega of Apostasy?
"The kings of the earth, and all the inhabitants of the world, would not have believed that the adversary and the enemy could enter the gates of Jerusalem." Lam.4:12. "If ye are Christ's, ye are Abraham's seed." Then "We may have a Jerusalem in our own houses and in the churches." T.M.346.
[This message has been edited by adventbeliever (edited 02-19-2001).]
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Are you all asleep? :)
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No, but I should be! :)
Interesting, Brother Picard. The Book of Daniel is a great blessing that we might know and understand what is just in front of us. Jesus is coming soon. A Sunday law is being planned and God's people are beginning to awake! :)
Richard
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Richard,
Considering how early I've seen you posting on here, you should be in bed already! :P
Wendy
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Through His Merits Alone!!!
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That is an interesting question. It is one that has several answers at the present time depending on who you talk with. We began a End Time Prophecy Forum where the discussion has continued.
Are there other difficult questions that your are attempting to find an answer for?
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Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
How can the child born (Jesus Christ, always referred to as "the Son") be called "the everlasting Father" in this text? I have never understood that and as far as I can tell, it is the only place in the Bible that describes him as Father.
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Perhaps in the sense that He is our Creator, and therefore can legitimately be called our Father?
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Malachi 1:6 A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?
2 Corinthians 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Scripture shows Father God and Jesus Christ ( Alpha and Omega ) refer to Themselves as The Almighty
A Father rules the home government if he is there.
Jesus Christ as the Second Adam is ruler of the human species whether they obey or not, all will answer to Him, He both judges and owns the kingdom..
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
1st Corinthians 15:
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
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According to justice and retribution God might have placed in the hands of his angelic ministers the vials of his wrath, to be poured out upon a rebellious world, to punish the inhabitants for their treatment of the Prince of heaven. But he did not do this. "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins." Isaiah tells us who and what our Redeemer is: "Unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulders: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Christ had two natures, the nature of a man and the nature of God. In him divinity and humanity were combined. Upon his mediatorial work hangs the hope of the perishing world. No one but Christ has ever succeeded in living a perfect life, in living a pure, spotless character. He exhibited a perfect humanity, combined with deity; and by preserving each nature distinct, he has given to the world a representation of the character of God and the character of a perfect man. He shows us what God is, and what man may become--godlike in character. {GCB, October 1, 1899 par. 20}
Christ is our example. He placed himself at the head of the human family to accomplish a work the importance of which men do not comprehend because they do not realize the privileges and possibilities before them as members of the human family of God. We may understand the subject of the work of Christ. His object was to reconcile the prerogatives of justice and mercy, and let each stand separate in its dignity, yet united. His mercy was not weakness, but a terrible power to punish sin because it is sin; yet a power to draw to it the love of humanity. Through Christ Justice is enabled to forgive without sacrificing one jot of its exalted holiness. {GCB, October 1, 1899 par. 21}
Justice and Mercy stood apart, in opposition to each other, separated by a wide gulf. The Lord our Redeemer clothed his divinity with humanity, and wrought out in behalf of man a character that was without spot or blemish. He planted his cross midway between heaven and earth, and made it the object of attraction which reached both ways, drawing both Justice and Mercy across the gulf. Justice moved from its exalted throne, and with all the armies of heaven approached the cross. There it saw One equal with God bearing the penalty for all injustice and sin. With perfect satisfaction Justice bowed in reverence at the cross, saying, It is enough. {GCB, October 1, 1899 par. 22}
By the offering made in our behalf we are placed on vantage-ground. The sinner, drawn by the power of Christ from the confederacy of sin, approaches the uplifted cross, and prostrates himself before it. Then there is a new creature in Christ Jesus. The sinner is cleansed and purified. A new heart is given to him. Holiness finds that it has nothing more to require. {GCB, October 1, 1899 par. 23}
The work of redemption involved consequences of which it is difficult for man to have any conception. There was to be imparted to the human being striving for conformity to the divine image an outlay of heaven's treasures, an excellency of power, which would place him higher than the angels who had not fallen. The battle has been fought, the victory won. The controversy between sin and righteousness exalted the Lord of heaven, and established before the saved human family, before the unfallen worlds, before all the host of evil workers, from the greatest to the least, God's holiness, mercy, goodness, and wisdom. Christ's sacrifice exalted the law, proving that it was from the beginning, and would be through all eternity, from everlasting to everlasting. {GCB, October 1, 1899 par. 24}
Satan, the first apostate, looked upon the fruit of his apostasy in the vast army under his banner, and his mind was made to comprehend the meaning of warfare against God and his Son. He saw how many he had by his subtlety led away from God, from happiness and holiness. The truth of his position and his efforts to overthrow God and assume his place, when he took with him vast numbers of angels who might have been a happy family in heaven, flashed over him. Never had the arch-deceiver such an appreciation of God and his throne, his holiness, his justice, his goodness, his amazing love, as when Christ hung on the cross. Mercy and Truth had met together; Righteousness and Peace had embraced each other. Mrs. E. G. White. {GCB, October 1, 1899 par. 25}
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As I try to understand this enormus question and it's answer all I can say is that Scripture says Christ will be "A" father to us, and when representing God to us - Christ stands as a Father to us, and representing us to God, Christ stands as a Brother to us and for us.
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I hope my efforts help.
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They certainly have, Ed. Thank you.
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That is a very good explanation, Brother Ed. But, like Sister Sybil, it hurts my mind to think of it that way. I have a heavenly Father that I know very well! He loves me so much that He allowed His innocent Son to come to this dark world as a helpless babe subject to our weaknesses at the risk of failure and eternal loss! Jesus is His Son and my Saviour. So, I have them both settled nicely into my little brain. :)
I have no other answer. Jesus said if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. I would have to say that they are both of the same character and in that sense we can know either as representing the very same principles of life. They are of one mind of one character. But, I see the Father and the Son. :)
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Yes, Richard. Separate individuals, but the same in every particular. You made reference to the verse I had in mind when asking this question: Jesus said if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.
Heaven will have enough time for us to comprehend these things?
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"ye are gods"
Psalm 82
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
If the answer is in John 10 I can't grasp it. Perhaps someone could spell it out for me.
John 10
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
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... good addition, Victoria. :)
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That one has boggled my mind as well!
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Humans were built to have dominion over the Earth and all the living things. They were to rule and have the character of Whom they see as God, rulling in and over them.
Thus in a sense to the lesser creatures and the planet they were as gods - rulers, in whom the character and union with the Co-Creator Gods dwelt.
Once they gave their obedience to a usurper interposing between the Co-Creator Gods, this false god became their god and claimed them and Earth as his, and probably demanded a seat upon Deities Throne. He was in Heaven during high Church or Church in business session among the Adams of all the worlds.
Thus a defining of the true Dieties had to be made in scripture.
Jeremiah 10:
1 ¶ Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:
2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.
6 Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O LORD; thou art great, and thy name is great in might.
7 Who would not fear thee, O King of nations? for to thee doth it appertain: forasmuch as among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms, there is none like unto thee.
8 But they are altogether brutish and foolish: the stock is a doctrine of vanities.
9 Silver spread into plates is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of the workman, and of the hands of the founder: blue and purple is their clothing: they are all the work of cunning men.
10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.
11 Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.
12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.
13 When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures.
14 Every man is brutish in his knowledge: every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them.
15 They are vanity, and the work of errors: in the time of their visitation they shall perish.
16 The portion of Jacob is not like them: for he is the former of all things; and Israel is the rod of his inheritance: The LORD of hosts is his name.
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When Jesus said "ye are gods" lots of stuff was going on all around Him. Here's what I found ("ye are gods" = 2 hits
1. ONE OF THE FEATURES THAT DISTINGUISH THE TRUE GOD FROM ALL FALSE GODS, IS THE POWER TO COMMUNICATE WITH MEN REGARDING THE PAST AND THE FUTURE. THROUGH THE PROPHET ISAIAH, JEHOVAH ISSUES A CHALLENGE TO THE GODS WORSHIPED BY THE HEATHEN: "LET THEM SHOW THE FORMER THINGS, WHAT THEY BE, THAT WE MAY CONSIDER THEM, AND KNOW THE LATTER END OF THEM; OR DECLARE US THINGS FOR TO COME. SHOW THE THINGS THAT ARE TO COME HEREAFTER, THAT WE MAY KNOW THAT YE ARE GODS." AND BECAUSE OF THE INABILITY OF THESE FALSE GODS TO DO THIS, JEHOVAH DECLARES, "BEHOLD, YE ARE OF NOTHING, AND YOUR WORK OF NOUGHT; AN ABOMINATION IS HE THAT CHOOSETH YOU." ISAIAH 41:22-24. {CET 250.1}
ONE OF THE DIVINELY APPOINTED TESTS OF A TRUE PROPHET OF GOD IS THE ACCURATE FULFILLMENT OF HIS WORDS. TO ANCIENT ISRAEL GOD SAID THROUGH MOSES, HIMSELF A MIGHTY PROPHET: {CET 250.2}
"IF THOU SAY IN THINE HEART, HOW SHALL WE KNOW THE WORD WHICH THE LORD HATH NOT SPOKEN? WHEN A PROPHET SPEAKETH IN THE NAME OF THE LORD, IF THE THING FOLLOW NOT, NOR COME TO PASS, THAT IS THE THING WHICH THE LORD HATH NOT SPOKEN, BUT THE PROPHET HATH SPOKEN IT PRESUMPTUOUSLY: THOU SHALT NOT BE AFRAID OF HIM." DEUTERONOMY 18:21, 22. {CET 250.3}
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2. November 27, 1893 The True Sheep Respond to the Voice of
the Shepherd.
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By Mrs. E. G. White.
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"I am the Good Shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold; them also must I bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one Shepherd." {ST, November 27, 1893 par. 1}
In the East it is the custom of the shepherd to name his sheep, and as the sheep learn their names, they respond to the voice of the shepherd. The shepherd goes before them and leads them out, guiding them from the fold to the pasture. The sheep recognize the voice of the shepherd and follow him. Jesus declared himself to be the true shepherd, because he gave his life for the sheep. He says; "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." {ST, November 27, 1893 par. 2}
Jesus spoke these words in the hearing of a large concourse of people, and a deep impression was made upon the hearts of many who listened. The scribes and Pharisees were filled with jealousy because he was regarded with favor by many. Among the multitude were also rulers, who were deeply impressed as they listened to his important words. While he represented himself as the True Shepherd, the Pharisees said, "He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?" But others distinguished the voice of the True Shepherd, and said:-- {ST, November 27, 1893 par. 3}
"These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind? And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not; the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one." {ST, November 27, 1893 par. 4}
With what firmness and power he uttered these words. The Jews had never before heard such words from human lips, and a convicting influence attended them; for it seemed that divinity flashed through humanity as Jesus said, "I and my Father are one." The words of Christ were full of deep meaning as he put forth the claim that he and the Father were of one substance, possessing the same attributes. The Jews understood his meaning, there was no reason why they should misunderstand, and they took up stones to stone him. Jesus looked upon them calmly and unshrinkingly, and said, "Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of these works do ye stone me?" {ST, November 27, 1893 par. 5}
The Majesty of heaven stood, calmly assured, as a god before his adversaries. Their scowling faces, their hands filled with stones, did not intimidate him. He knew that unseen forces, legions of angels, were round about him, and at one word from his lips they would strike with dismay the throng, should they offer to cast upon him a single stone. He stood before them undaunted. Why did not the stones fly to the mark?--It was because divinity flashed through humanity, and they received a revelation, and were convicted that his were no common claims. Their hands relax and the stones fall to the ground. His words had asserted his divinity, but now his personal presence, the light of his eye, the majesty of his attitude, bore witness to the fact that he was the beloved Son of God. {ST, November 27, 1893 par. 6}
Had the Pharisees misunderstood his words, he could and would have corrected their wrong impression. He could have told them that he was no blasphemer, although he had called himself the Son of God, and that his words need not necessarily mean that he had invested himself with divine prerogatives, and made himself equal with the Father. But he made no such statement. The impression they had received was the very impression he desired to make. Jesus answered them: "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the Scripture cannot be broken; say ye of Him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works; that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him." Again the hatred and the wrath is stirred within the breast of the Jews, and they sought "to take him; but he escaped out of their hand, and went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode. And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle; but all things that John spake of this man were true. And many believed on him there.
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{ST, November 27, 1893 par. 7}
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If we look at the context of both Psalm 82 and the passage in John, it becomes clear what Jesus is saying. Understanding why the author said "ye are gods" seems to be a translation loss or a lack of understanding on our part. But in context we can know exactly what he meant.
In Psalm 82 we find the author setting the stage: Verse 1: "God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods." It appears that there is God and there are other "gods" that do "judging". Now, God is just, how about the other "gods"? Verse 2: "How long will "YE" judge unjustly? So, we draw from these two verses that the judges who judge unjustly are being referred to as "gods". And then the author of the Psalm instructs the "gods" to: verses 3 and 4: "Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked."
Verse 6 is a reference again to the "gods" from verse 1 and 2. "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High." A better translation would probably remove our concern. How about "Ye think ye are "gods".....and then verse 7: "But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes." They are not gods at all. They are only being called gods, and even if the author calls them gods, it is because they think of themselves as gods in that they are dong the judging as if they were God. Verse 8 is a call for God to judge them and the whole earth: "Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations."
Having discerned the intent of Psalm 82, we then can look at the Words of Jesus in John 10.
The Jews wanted to kill Jesus and were looking for an excuse. When He claimed to be the Son of God, they took this as their excuse. But, Jesus, as He always did, revealed their hypocrisy.
John 10 verse 33: "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God." Jesus points out that they accuse Him of claiming to be God, He then points to their making many gods of themselves, verse 34: "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" Now, we go back to what was being said in Psalm 82. In that Psalm we saw inspiration rebuking those who thought themselves as "gods". Jesus knew what was being said and so ought the Jews He was speaking to. It was made very clear in the psalm that they were not gods', but unjust judges. Jesus continues in verse 35 and 36: "If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?" So, they called their unjust judges "gods" and they were not guilty of blasphemy, so why accuse Jesus of this when He only called Himself the Son of God? Of course He was God, but He was only pointing to their hypocrisy. He then goes on in verses 37 and 38 to tell them that they may indeed know that He is intimately connected to the God of heaven: "If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him."
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A lot of that makes sense. Which leads me to a different thought on the translation "Ye are gods."
Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
We have all been given the opportunity to be a child of God. Could that be the reason man can be called "gods" definitely lower case ~ because we are given an inheritance in Christ we can be called the sons of God. "Ye shall die like men" reveals the path away from God that too many have taken.
Ephesians 1:10,11 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance...
Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
I thought the Bible said Christ is our Brother? I can't find it...
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Proverbs 18:24 A man that hath friends must shew himself friendly: and there is a friend that sticketh closer than a brother.
SOP identifies Jesus Christ in position of Elder Brother . The Principles identifying Him thus are in Scripture, the specific words are not.
......They could speak the name of Jesus with assurance; for was He not their Friend and Elder Brother ? .......{AA 45.3 - 46.1}
.......Behold the Son of God bowed in prayer to His Father! Though He is the Son of God, He strengthens His faith by prayer, and by communion with heaven gathers to Himself power to resist evil and to minister to the needs of men. As the Elder Brother of our race He knows the necessities of those who, compassed with infirmity and living in a world of sin and temptation, still desire to serve Him. ..........{AA 56.1}
In the courts above, Christ is pleading for His church --pleading for those for whom He has paid the redemption price of His blood. Centuries, ages, can never lessen the efficacy of His atoning sacrifice. Neither life nor death, height nor depth, can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus; not because we hold Him so firmly, but because He holds us so fast. If our salvation depended on our own efforts, we could not be saved; but it depends on the One who is behind all the promises. Our grasp on Him may seem feeble, but His love is that of an elder brother; so long as we maintain our union with Him, no one can pluck us out of His hand. {AA 552.2}
( "elder brother" = 103 hits )
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It has been one of those marathon Sabbaths and is late so maybe I'm missing the obvious. Perhaps some of of our faithful Bbile students on the forum can offer some feedback on this question. I was not sure just where to put it so I opted for this spot. I brought this up today in a group setting and the only feedback was that it happens at Christ's second coming and the bride is the new Jerusalem. No more was said and the subject was changed.
When the wedding of the Bride and the Lamb take place when and how does it happen ?
The most popular answer is that it happens at Christ's second coming. Some believe that since the bride is the church and since this is when God's people physically go up to meet Him this is when the wedding/marriage takes place.
Others say that it is the second coming when the wedding takes place because the bride, new Jerusalem/ His dominion, is given to Christ. They say that God's people are the quests at the wedding and therefore they cannot be the bride.
Another view is that the wedding takes place in the judgment as the names of the faithful come up and the destiny of God's people is sealed and made known in heaven. They say that at that time the marriage takes place.
Maybe since I'm tired and ready for bed I have not made this clear.
When does the wedding of Christ to the bride happen ?
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We discussed that here: The Ten Virgins (http://remnant-online.com/smf/index.php?topic=741.0)
It is an incredible Bible study. You will enjoy reading it.
Sleep well, Colporteur. :)
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Ok... this is probably much simpler than I think but I've often wondered about the following text...
Gal 6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
Especially in light of this text from James...
Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
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Maybe it is in the same category as the statement from Jesus about not casting pearls before swine. While we should treat everyone with respect, as Jesus did, even with His betrayer and His murderers, there is a barrier that exists between the believe and the unbeliever. There is a reason that Christians call each other brother and sister. We are part of a family. Members of a family are in a different relationship with each other from those who are unrelated. There are perks to membership in the family of God.
Maybe I'm not saying right, but that's what came to mind.
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Wally, during and after I posted this question the idea of not casting pearls before swine also came to mind and your reference to the family is interesting and I think correct now that I'm thinking along these lines. In families who have Christ at the center will have relationships that are much closer and a small taste of Heaven while on earth. It would be virtually impossible to experience such a thing with a stranger that doesn't believe the same.
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God sends His rain and sunshine upon the righteous and the unrighteous. We too, are to bless those who despitefully use us. We love the sinner and hate the sin.
"Let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith." Here we see the same admonition to do good to all men. It does not say to withhold blessings from sinners. But, taken with other Scripture, we understand that those who will not work, shall not eat. Line upon line, precept upon precept. When we do good to our fellow believers, it is not "respecting persons" as in the the Bible verse in question. Respecting character is not the same as respecting worldly power and position. We are to treat all men with respect. We are to do for the poor what we would do for the rich. In other words, we are not to act in our self interest. This is the intent of the Bible verse that says "if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin." It is a selfish "respect that is sin. In helping especially those of our faith, we are not acting in our self interest.
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"Let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith." I always thought it meant to take care of church members first. There is limited time and materials so we cannot help everyone as much as we would like to. Applying this, when we have extra garden produce we first ask those members we know might be in need if they would like some before we ask neighbors or take it to the food pantry. It's just prioritizing who comes first.
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I have always wondered about John 10:33-36. We believe that the "gods" in verse 34 and the first part of vs 35 means "magistrates" and that the "God" in verse 33 means Divinity. I am trying to wrap my mind around Jesus' point. They are accusing Jesus of saying He is the God of heaven (and He is) and Jesus is replying by saying that he called them "magistrates" ? I'm obviously missing something because that would be a non point. Even if Jesus did not call them magistrates but they said he called them magistrates it is still a mute point because magistrates and God do not equate. That would be like someone accusing me of saying I am a pastor and I reply, haven't I said you are laymen ?
vs 33 " The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that that thou, being a man, makest thyself God,
vs. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said Ye are gods ?
vs 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and scripture cannot be broken;
vs 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified , and sent unto the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
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November 27, 1893 The True Sheep Respond to the Voice of the Shepherd. By Mrs. E. G. White.
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context of the verse in question
"I am the Good Shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold; them also must I bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one Shepherd." {ST, November 27, 1893 par. 1}
In the East it is the custom of the shepherd to name his sheep, and as the sheep learn their names, they respond to the voice of the shepherd. The shepherd goes before them and leads them out, guiding them from the fold to the pasture. The sheep recognize the voice of the shepherd and follow him. Jesus declared himself to be the true shepherd, because he gave his life for the sheep. He says; "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." {ST, November 27, 1893 par. 2}
Jesus spoke these words in the hearing of a large concourse of people, and a deep impression was made upon the hearts of many who listened. The scribes and Pharisees were filled with jealousy because he was regarded with favor by many. Among the multitude were also rulers, who were deeply impressed as they listened to his important words. While he represented himself as the True Shepherd, the Pharisees said, "He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?" But others distinguished the voice of the True Shepherd, and said:-- {ST, November 27, 1893 par. 3}
"These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind? And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not; the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one." {ST, November 27, 1893 par. 4}
With what firmness and power he uttered these words. The Jews had never before heard such words from human lips, and a convicting influence attended them; for it seemed that divinity flashed through humanity as Jesus said, "I and my Father are one." The words of Christ were full of deep meaning as he put forth the claim that he and the Father were of one substance, possessing the same attributes. The Jews understood his meaning, there was no reason why they should misunderstand, and they took up stones to stone him. Jesus looked upon them calmly and unshrinkingly, and said, "Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of these works do ye stone me?" {ST, November 27, 1893 par. 5}
The Majesty of heaven stood, calmly assured, as a god before his adversaries. Their scowling faces, their hands filled with stones, did not intimidate him. He knew that unseen forces, legions of angels, were round about him, and at one word from his lips they would strike with dismay the throng, should they offer to cast upon him a single stone. He stood before them undaunted. Why did not the stones fly to the mark?--It was because divinity flashed through humanity, and they received a revelation, and were convicted that his were no common claims. Their hands relax and the stones fall to the ground. His words had asserted his divinity, but now his personal presence, the light of his eye, the majesty of his attitude, bore witness to the fact that he was the beloved Son of God. {ST, November 27, 1893 par. 6}
Had the Pharisees misunderstood his words, he could and would have corrected their wrong impression. He could have told them that he was no blasphemer, although he had called himself the Son of God, and that his words need not necessarily mean that he had invested himself with divine prerogatives, and made himself equal with the Father. But he made no such statement. The impression they had received was the very impression he desired to make. Jesus answered them: "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the Scripture cannot be broken; say ye of Him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works; that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him." Again the hatred and the wrath is stirred within the breast of the Jews, and they sought "to take him; but he escaped out of their hand, and went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode. And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle; but all things that John spake of this man were true. And many believed on him there.
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{ST, November 27, 1893 par. 7}
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Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods <0430>; and all of you are children of the most High.
Isaiah 41:23 Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods <0430>: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods<2316> ?
<0430>‘elohiym el-o-heem’
plural of 0433; n m p; {See TWOT on 93 @@ "93c"}
AV-God 2346, god 244, judge 5, GOD 1, goddess 2, great 2, mighty 2, angels 1, exceeding 1, God-ward + 04136 1, godly 1; 2606
1) (plural)
1a) rulers, judges
1b) divine ones
1c) angels
1d) gods
2) (plural intensive-singular meaning)
2a) god, goddess
2b) godlike one
2c) works or special possessions of God
2d) the (true) God
2e) God
2316 θεος theos theh’-os
of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with 3588) the supreme Divinity; TDNT-3:65,322; {See TDNT 305} n m
AV-God 1320, god 13, godly 3, God-ward + 4214 2, misc 5; 1343
1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
2) the Godhead, trinity
2a) God the Father, the first person in the trinity
2b) Christ, the second person of the trinity
2c) Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
3) spoken of the only and true God
3a) refers to the things of God
3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him
4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
4a) God’s representative or viceregent
4a1) of magistrates and judges
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God has written in the books of heaven, "Weighed in the balances, and found wanting." Many have given abundant evidence of their selfishness. They have placed themselves as judges, to judge their fellow men. Yet their cruelty and injustice have not been sufficiently discerned to enable those connected with them to see to what a pass we are coming. God is displeased. His anger is kindled against the men who have acted as gods. Like the Jews, they have been loading the cloud of vengeance, which must at last break upon them. Unless they shall now understand that the souls of men are not given into their hand, that they cannot act out their selfish, avaricious covetousness under the plea that it is for the cause of God, there will be no remedy for them. {17MR 206.1}
Wake up, brethren, wake up, before it is too late for your characters to be changed. "Seek ye the Lord while He may be found, call ye upon Him while He is near: let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon" [Isaiah 55:6, 7].--Letter 7, 1896.
Ellen G. White Estate Washington, D. C. July 9, 1987. Entire Letter. {17MR 206.2}
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Is Jesus referencing a Psalm ( Psalm 82) that by it's content seems to be divine sarcasm speaking to an unjust people group of rulers trying to interpose between others and the True God, through the pompous position of their own arrogant making ? A Psalm that rebukes them.
Contrasting the claim their behavior makes, and His works, life, prophecies of Him, and His speaking is making . Would this not create enough controversy to spread all over Judiasm rapidly ? Would this move honest Jews to re-search the Messianic prophecies ?
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John the Baptist met sin with open rebuke in men of humble occupation and in men of high degree. He declared the truth to kings and nobles, whether they would hear or reject it. He spoke personally and pointedly. He reproved the Pharisees of the Sanhedrim because their religion consisted in forms and not in righteousness of pure, willing obedience. . . . He spoke to Herod in regard to his marriage with Herodias, saying, It is not lawful for thee to have her. He spoke to him of a future retribution, when God would judge every man according to his works. . . . {1NL 102.3}
What Shall We Do?
"Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do?" Did he say, Leave your toll and custom houses? No, he said to them, "Exact no more than that which is appointed you." If they were taxgatherers still, they could hold just weights and balances of truth in their hands. They could reform in those things that savored of dishonesty and oppression. {1NL 102.4}
"And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.". . . {1NL 102.5}
The Sword of Truth at Work
Christ also spoke pointedly to every class of men. He reproved those who dominated over their fellow men, those whose passions and prejudices caused many to err and compelled many to blaspheme God. The sword of truth was blunted by apologies and suppositions; but Christ called things by their right names. The ax was laid to the root of the tree. He showed that all the religious forms of worship could not save the Jewish nation, because they did not behold and receive by faith the Lamb of God as their Saviour.{1NL 102.6}
Just such a work and message as that of John will be carried on in these last days. The Lord has been giving messages to His people, through the instruments He has chosen, and He would have all take heed to the admonitions and warnings He sends. {1NL 103.1}
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Psalm 82
1 ¶ « A Psalm of Asaph. » God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2 How long will ye judge unjustly***, and accept the persons of the wicked***? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 ¶ I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men***, and fall like one of the princes. * *
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
***bad blind gods, blind guides, being judged by one superior to them
Is Jesus referencing a Psalm ( Psalm 82) that by it's content seems to be divine sarcasm speaking to an unjust people group of rulers trying to interpose between others and the True God, through the pompous position of their own arrogant making ? A Psalm that rebukes them.
* * Ezekiel 28:2-19 There was another prince setting himself up as god and commanding submission of mind, heart, conscience – were the Jews following WHOM , Christ or the false god of Ezekiel 28 & their current false gods human rulers ?
They acted as gods over the people telling them to submit opinions, ideas, conscience to them as though they were gods.
Matthew 22:21-25
21And they asked him, saying, Master, we know that thou sayest and teachest rightly, neither acceptest thou the person of any, but teachest the way of God truly:
22 Is it lawful for us to give tribute unto Caesar, or no?
23 But he perceived their craftiness, and said unto them, Why tempt ye me?
24 Shew me a penny. Whose image and superscription hath it? They answered and said, Caesar’s.
25 And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar’s, and unto God the things which be God’s.
Contrasting the claim their behavior makes, and His works, life, prophecies of Him, and His speaking is making . Would this not create enough controversy to spread all over Judiasm rapidly ? Would this move honest Jews to re-search the Messianic prophecies ?
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I have a question to ask our Bible students on 1Thessalonians 3:7-13. The point of the question appears in verse 13 in bold. It was preached in a sermon today inferring we will keep on sinning until Jesus comes but until then, He will continue to forgive us. I had trouble with that.
What does it mean to you?
1Th 3:7 Therefore, brethren, we were comforted over you in all our affliction and distress by your faith:
1Th 3:8 For now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord.
1Th 3:9 For what thanks can we render to God again for you, for all the joy wherewith we joy for your sakes before our God;
1Th 3:10 Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?
1Th 3:11 Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.
1Th 3:12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:
1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
Weymouth translates it this way: 1Th 3:13 Thus He will build up your characters, so that you will be faultlessly holy in the presence of our God and Father at the Coming of our Lord Jesus with all His holy ones.
Is "at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" a timing statement? When are we established unblameable in holiness, only at the coming of our Lord Jesus? Can our hearts be established in unblameable holiness now or is it only "at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ"? What is Paul saying?
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The time frame of fixing good and bad characters is shown to occur as Christ removes the High Priest's garments and throwing down the censer of incense used in mediation. As He is putting on the blood soaked robes of King of Kings garments of vengeance covered with the blood of His enemies. This is the end of redeeming grace for sinners and the start of the eternal rest of grace for saints, their characters stay pure forever. The second Coming > I come quickly (slightly still future but quickly becoming present tense at that time)
Revelation 22:
7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
("let him be holy still" = 84 hits )
When the work of the investigative Judgment closes, the destiny of all will have been decided for life or death. Probation is ended a short time before the appearing of the Lord in the clouds of heaven. Christ in the Revelation, looking forward to that time, declares: “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still; and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still; and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still; and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.” [Revelation 22:11, 12.] {GC88 491.1} {GC88 613.2}{GC 490.2} {GC 613.2-614.1} PP 201 (1890). {LDE 253.1-.2}
When Jesus rises up in the most holy place, lays off His mediatorial robes, and clothes Himself with the garments of vengeance, the mandate will go forth: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: . . . and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with me" (Revelation 22:11, 12).--Testimonies, vol. 8, pp. 313-315. {RC 312.8}
How is <4741> used in the text and surrounding context and place in plan of salvation ?
Luke 9:51 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set <4741> his face to go to Jerusalem,
Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is <4741> a great gulf fixed <4741>: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen <4741> thy brethren.
Romans 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established <4741>;
Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish <4741> you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
1 Thessalonians 3:2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish <4741> you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:
1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish <4741> your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
2 Thessalonians 2:17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish <4741> you in every good word and work.
2 Thessalonians 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish <4741> you, and keep you from evil.
James 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish <4741> your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
1 Peter 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish <4741>, strengthen, settle you.
2 Peter 1:12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established <4741> in the present truth.
Revelation 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen <4741> the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
4741. στηρι/ζω sterizo stay-rid’-zo; from a presumed derivative of 2476 (like 4731); to set fast, i.e. (literally) to turn resolutely in a certain direction, or (figuratively) to confirm: — fix, (e-)stablish, stedfastly set, strengthen.
1st Thess 3:
12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:
13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Everything corruptible is now incorruptible, it can no longer be corrupted.
Also look up ( seal* satan* power = 46 hits)
The character up till that time is fixed in that condition eternally ( if redeemed ) (for slightly over 1000 yrs if lost - ashes do not think or feel therefore have no character), at the time Jesus makes the mandate ..... "holy still".... no longer High Priest, now King of Kings in process of the leaving Heaven at the Head of His entire holy angelic army.
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Amen, Ed. Character does not change when Jesus comes.
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I saw Satan would work more powerfully now than ever he has before. He knows that his time is short and that the sealing of the saints will place them beyond his power; he will now work in every way that he can and will try his every insinuation to get the saints off from their guard and get them asleep on the present truth or doubting it, so as to prevent their being sealed with the seal of the living God.--Ms 7, 1850, pp. 2, 3. ("A Vision God Gave Me at Brother Harris', August 24, 1850.) {8MR 220.5}
The angel said, "Some tried too hard to believe. Faith is so simple. Ye look above it. Satan has deceived some and got them to looking at their own unworthiness." I saw they must look away from self to the worthiness of Jesus, and throw themselves, just as they are, needy, dependent, upon His mercy, and draw by faith, strength and nourishment from Him.--Ms 8, 1850, p 1. ("Vision of August 24, 1850.") {8MR 221.1}
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That is correct, Richard. It is a teaching we combat almost every Sabbath, yet it remains an error among us.
Ed, Amen! Thank you for the "line upon line," setting the verse into proper context. Today is the day to form character as it becomes fixed through sanctification and cannot be moved.
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quoting Richard
Character does not change when Jesus comes.
quoting Mimi That is correct, Richard. It is a teaching we combat almost every Sabbath, yet it remains an error among us.
The reason for that is where they choose to stand in relationship to the issues in QOD. It is dawning upon me that QOD is a screen and dividing line and strong delusions mixed in with truth.
One one side - those who are only satisfied with what Majority Text ( received Text)Scripture and SOP say and explain in tandem.
One the other side - anything goes no absolutes no anchors
QOD gives each side a place to choose to stand in relationship to what it says and what it should say and should never have said at all.
Fundamental global views of Salvation and the Great Controversy Saga redefine how folks believe and follow and seek to promulgate those views, so every Sabbath the leaves are picked off by the faithful during combatting the errors, but the roots of modern sadduceeism libertarianism antinomianism remain so new leaves quickly grow back.
Thus icebergs of darkness chill the assemblies and quench God's Spirit and discourage those trying to spiritually awaken and spiritually gether warmth from above, courage from Christ, loyalty that successfully paddles upstream; THAT IS THEIR MISSION AND PURPOSE.
Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
Ask God how to allow the icebergs their blissful spot in the freezer, and ask Jesus how and when to move forward to reach out to those who have never heard and thus never rejected.
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Fundamental global views of Salvation and the Great Controversy Saga redefine how folks believe and follow and seek to promulgate those views, so every Sabbath the leaves are picked off by the faithful during combatting the errors, but the roots of modern sadduceeism libertarianism antinomianism remain so new leaves quickly grow back.
Thus icebergs of darkness chill the assemblies and quench God's Spirit and discourage those trying to spiritually awaken and spiritually gether warmth from above, courage from Christ, loyalty that successfully paddles upstream; THAT IS THEIR MISSION AND PURPOSE.
Amen. You approach this as to get to the very root of the problem. I like your angle. It is not one many consider when pondering such things. Error that lies so close to truth is very difficult to correct and thus overcome because the root of error has been allowed to grow deep. It is not something as simple to combat as "from Sabbath to Sunday" arguments. That one is easy.
As a result of the error we are addressing on this issue, which is taught far and wide, the question most in the pew have is: What does Christ do in me and when does He do it? "Today is the day of salvation" remains on the sideline but never taken into the mind as something to soberly consider with all of its ramifications tied up in the true gospel message. So many are left at the point of being justified and go no further in grace that thoroughly transforms the mind, so they end up in a cyclical Romans 7 condition because they are void of power. But before that, they are void of knowledge to correct their insecurities because they are not students of the Word to see if these things are so, and they wonder why they are unsuccessful in overcoming sin this very day, building character that is a direct reflection of the Savior. Because of this, many are going to wait for the latter rain to do a work in them but they will be sorely disappointed because they missed daily opportunities. I could go on but at this point, I am preaching to the choir.
This is such a huge problem that again it reinforces the reality of our condition described in detail in Revelation 3:14-22. We have a work to do among the nations but I dare say we have an even larger work to do in the churches.
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Quoting Mimi
As a result of the error we are addressing on this issue, which is taught far and wide, the question most in the pew have is: What does Christ do in me and when does He do it?
Christ implants Himself into the believer, and put’s the believer in the cleft of the Rock, - His riven side. If that is not sought for, and cooperated with, - Christ never forces it, and it remains undone.
Accomplished by daily and throughout each day - (coming to Christ-praying frequently daily , surrendering self, forgiving all others, crucifying self, lifting one's own cross, having already put away one's own idols, making no provision for the flesh, denying feelings and desires that deny Christ, taking Christ's yoke of service, following Christ, asking His help, claiming His SOP & Scripture - words, putting them to use.)
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
John 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
Ephesians 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1 John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
What is love > look at Peter’s ladder > look at each component part - start with like precious faith, > step by step till (charity) agape <26>
What does love do ? > Look at 1st Corinthians 13:
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
1 ¶ Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4 ¶ Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;( <26> rejoices in God & God’s doctrines )
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 ¶ Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, ]b]they shall fail[/b]; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.<26>
1. Union with Father God, and Christ, and the Holy Ghost on their stated terms in the Bible, with heart reception engrafting of Their life and offered character from above, and active human union with them cheerfully. John 3:3 -21; 1st Peter 1:13-2:8; John Chapters 14 and 15 and 16 and 17; 1st Corinthians Chapter 13; Ephesians 3:8-21; 1 John 3:10, 14; 1 John 4:8,20 .
2 . The understanding, adorning and heartfelt obedience, engrafting of all the doctrines of the Bible and the testifying of Jesus Christ. Matthew 13:3-23; Mark 4:2-20; Luke 8:4-15; James 1:17-27; 1st Timothy 4:13 - 16; 2nd John 1:9-11; Matthew 28:18-20; Revelation 14:7 ( Deuteronomy 10: 12,13,16, 20; Deuteronomy 30:2,6 onward - verse 16-19.
3. Human relationships on God’s terms. Matthew Chapters 5 - 7 The Sermon on the Mount, and Paul’s writings .
“God imparts His blessing to us, that we may give to others. And as long as we yield ourselves as the channels through which His love can flow, He will keep the channels supplied. When you ask God for your daily bread, He looks right into your heart to see if you will impart the same to others, more needy than yourself. When you pray, "God be merciful to me a sinner," He watches to see if you will manifest compassion to those with whom you associate. This is the evidence of our connection with God,--that we are merciful even as our Father who is in heaven is merciful. If we are His, we shall do with a cheerful heart just what He tells us to do, however inconvenient, however contrary it may be to our own feelings. . . . {CS 164.3}
“Wherever there is union with Christ there is love. Whatever other fruits we may bear, if love be missing, they profit nothing. Love to God and our neighbor is the very essence of our religion. No one can love Christ and not love His children. When we are united to Christ, we have the mind of Christ. Purity and love shine forth in the character, meekness and truth control the life. The very expression of the countenance is changed. Christ abiding in the soul exerts a transforming power, and the outward aspect bears witness to the peace and joy that reign within. We drink in the love of Christ, as the branch draws nourishment from the vine. If we are grafted in Christ, if fiber by fiber we have been united with the Living Vine, we shall give evidence of the fact by bearing rich clusters of living fruit. If we are connected with the Light, we shall be channels of light, and in our words and works we shall reflect light to the world. Those who are truly Christians are bound with the chain of love which links earth to heaven, which binds finite man to the infinite God. The light that shines in the face of Jesus Christ shines in the hearts of His followers, to the glory of God. {1SM 337.2}
“The qualities which it is essential for all to possess are those which marked the completeness of Christ's character--His love, His patience, His unselfishness, and His goodness. These attributes are gained by doing kindly actions with a kindly heart. But Christ's requirements are not met by His people today. A strange deception is upon the people of God. Selfishness prevents the union which should exist. True love for one another is rare in our churches. This lack of love reveals most certainly that the members do not love God as they suppose they do. They give evidence that they need to be sanctified. {21MR 411.2}
It is the greatest and most fatal deception to suppose that a man can have faith unto life eternal without possessing Christlike love for his brethren. He who loves God and his neighbor is filled with light and love. God is in him and all around him. Christians love those around them as precious souls for whom Christ has died. There is no such thing as a loveless Christian, for "God is love." [1 John 2:3-5, 8-11; John 13:34, 35; 15:12, quoted.]--Ms 133, 1899. {21MR 411.3}
("vital transfusion" = 3 hits )
The Lord Jesus loves His people, and when they put their trust in Him, depending wholly upon Him, He strengthens them. He will live through them, giving them the inspiration of His sanctifying Spirit, imparting to the soul a vital transfusion of Himself. He acts through their faculties and causes them to choose His will and to act out His character. With the apostle Paul they then may say, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me" (Galatians 2:20). . . . {TMK 78.4}
When we reflect Christ's image, we shall love one another as He has loved us. We shall not love as we love our neighbor, but as Christ loved us. It is an advance to love as Christ loved. This is the perfection of Christian character. When we can say, My will is wholly submerged in God's will, then peace and rest come in. {7MR 389.1}
We must have that love, else we cannot be perfect before God. We may be active, we may do much work, but unless we love as Christ loved, our candlestick will be removed out of its place. . . . {7MR 389.2}
We have little enough of Christ's character. We need it all through our ranks, We must reveal that love which dwelt in Jesus. Then we shall keep the commandment [that we love one another], which not one in a hundred of those who claim to believe the truth for this time are keeping. . . . {7MR 389.3}
Perfect unity must exist in a diversity of gifts. A union of all the gifts is essential. The one great commandment Christ has given is a new commandment. It reaches beyond loving our neighbor as we love ourselves. We are to love one another, "as I," said Christ, "have loved you." This experience must be obtained by every child of God. All must blend together in the work, thus making the work not onesided, but a complete whole.--Letter 121, 1898, pp. 6-8. (To S. N. Haskell and wife, December 12, 1898.) {7MR 389.4}
Oh, what can I say to open blind eyes, to enlighten the spiritual understanding! Sin must be crucified. A complete moral renovation must be wrought by the Holy Spirit. We must have the love of God, with living, abiding faith. This is the gold tried in the fire. We can obtain it only of Christ. Every sincere and earnest seeker will become a partaker of the divine nature. His soul will be filled with intense longing to know the fullness of that love which passes knowledge; as he advances in the divine life he will be better able to grasp the elevated, ennobling truths of the word of God, until by beholding he becomes changed and is enabled to reflect the likeness of his Redeemer. {5T 105.2}
My 2 cents RE what I have read in the matter. Christ's timetable is on His schedule, faith is doing it while the feelings / desire still object / praying while doing & following.
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What comes to mind when look at this is those who say " If I'm lucky enough to make it." I think they realize that lucky has not a thing to do with it. Knowing a little of who they are I believe they are hoping that God is of such a nature so as to let them in anyway.
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Which brings to mind the wedding feast and the garments provided. An inspection was made. What was it that was inspected? The truth is simple, but rejected by most.
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I'm hoping that my "difficult" Bible question will not be difficult for others here and can help understand better what is being said.
Rom_5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
How is it that someone can be reconciled while still enemies? In my mind to be reconciled means that a relationship has been restored to it's proper place. God may love the sinner while sinning but this doesn't mean the sinner has been reconciled. At least in my understanding that it is. I'm thinking my difficulty in my understanding of the word reconciled means in the context of this verse so I'm interested in how others understand it.
It does not surprise me Mrs. White agrees with Paul in the reference below but it did not help to clear up my difficulty here.
"We were reconciled to God by the death of his Son." Christ reconciled the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them. O, what compassion and love are here revealed! How is humanity exalted through the merits of Christ! His sacrifice was ample and complete. The Holy One died instead of the unholy. He clothed himself in our filthy garments, that we might wear the spotless robe of his righteousness, which was woven in the loom of heaven. He paid the whole debt for all who would believe in him as their personal Saviour. His blood cleanseth from all sin and purifieth from all unrighteousness. In him, through him alone, we have forgiveness of sins. Through faith in his blood we have justification in the sight of God. {ST, May 30, 1895 par. 4}
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( “were reconciled” = 6 hits )
Once Adam & Eve sinned - God is now legally their enemy:
Christ’s death removes that legal standing of the human species through the preservation of His intercession: as long as He is High Priest. Once being sealed with God's seal, they remain His forever. Then Jesus can become King of Kings and still retain them, even though He ceases to be High Priest due to completion of that facet of His mission.
That does not mean every human individual has ceased being, in their mind, themselves, an adversary toward God.
But after the “much more” moving to the “being reconciled” now they themselves as an individual are born again and are personally reconciled to God. Now they in partnership with Jesus, now they willingly receive His life into themselves and He imputes and imparts His “vital transfusion of Himself” into and upon them.
( “were reconciled” = 6 hits )
1. {OFC 33.5 - 34.1} ( read the context )
2. {SD 229.1-.4} ( read the context )
3. {RH, September 1, 1891 par. 3} ( read the context )
4. {ST, July 21, 1898 par. 11} ( read the context )
5. {ST, June 28, 1899 par. 9 - 12} ( read the context )
6. {YI, December 13, 1894 par. 1-5} ( read the context )
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Adam did not consider all the consequences resulting from his disobedience. He did not set his mind in defiance against God, nor did he in any way speak against God; he simply went directly contrary to His express command. And how many today are doing the very same thing, and their guilt is of much greater magnitude because they have the example of Adam’s experience in disobedience, and its terrible results, to warn them of the consequences of transgressing the law of God. So they have clear light upon this subject, and no excuse for their guilt in denying and disobeying God’s authority. . . . {CTr 25.2}
Adam yielded to temptation, and as we have the matter of sin and its consequences laid so distinctly before us, we can read from cause to effect and see the greatness of the act is not that which constitutes sin; but the disobedience of God’s expressed will, which is a virtual denial of God, refusing the laws of His government. . . . {CTr 25.3}
The law of self is erected, human will is made supreme, and when the high and holy will of God is presented to be obeyed, respected, and honored, the human will wants its own way, to do its own promptings, and there is a controversy between the human agent and the Divine. {CTr 25.4}
The fall of our first parents broke the golden chain of implicit obedience of the human will to the Divine. Obedience has no longer been deemed an absolute necessity. The human agents follow their own imaginations, which the Lord said of the inhabitants of the old world were evil and that continually. ...... . . . {CTr 25.5}
The born again person is surrendered in mind & heart to God, they themselves no longer are at enmity toward God, they have become reconciled inside themselves toward God, even as Christ caused reconciliation in Heaven.
Christ death pays the debt causing reconciliation in Heaven, and His perfect human life is imputed and imparted to and in the born again person. Imputed means giving as a gift to the recipient, what could never be earned or created by the recipient, and imparted means offered and implanted as the receiver is willing and able to receive as part of the partnership terms.
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Amen, Ed.
Jim, let me see if I can present this verse in an easy manner.
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
"For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son"
When we were in the world walking after the flesh, disobedient to the law of God, we beheld the love of God revealed in the infinite Sacrifice of His Son while we were yet sinners. This truth caused our heart to break. We fall at the foot of the cross and die to self and are filled with His Spirit, thus becoming partakers of His divine nature. This is salvation, this is eternal life. What brought about this repentance? "The goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance...for godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation " Romans 2:4, 2 Cor. 7:10. Godly sorrow for what our sins did to our Savior. We see that we are saved by His death for us while we were yet sinners. It is called grace, unmerited favor for us while we were dead in trespasses and sins. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." Ephesians 2:8.
"much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."
His suffering and death did in fact pay the price for our sins. But, how is it that we shall be fit for heaven? Is it not a matter of transformation of character? How is it that this transformation shall take place? It is true that when we die to self, we have life, but going on beyond our title to heaven, we must understand that God wants more from us than just accepting the free gift. The thief on the cross did not have much time to grow in grace. He did, though grow in grace while he witnessed the life of Christ before He died. What did he learn from Christ as he witnessed the "life" of Christ? Did it better fit him for his place in heaven? Was it good enough to be converted and then allow his hold on Christ to be broken? Or was there a need for him to grown in Christ while he yet hung on the cross? Did temptations come to the thief as he lived on the cross? Was there temptation to unbelief when Christ died? The disciples were full of unbelief. But, how about the thief?
And, how about us? Today, I ministered to a street preacher who did not know he could lose his salvation. He believed and taught that a man could sin and retain his salvation. How is it that you and I can retain our salvation after we die to self? Paul said that "I die daily". How do we die daily? How are we transformed in character? Jesus told Nicodemus how it is that we are to be saved, continually saved. How are we continually saved and transformed in character?
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Jesus said "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever." John 6:53-58. So, we see that it is the life and teachings of Jesus that when we feed upon it, we are able to receive the grace into our hearts.
Do we need help to do this? We all have come to see what great sinners we are. If you have missed this, read Romans seven. In our flesh is no good thing. Jesus said He would send the Comforter, the third person of the godhead to lead us into truth. What is it that the Holy Spirit wants us to know? Is it not the grace of God? What is the result of beholding the love (grace) of God? Is it not salvation? Jesus tells us that He is drawing all men unto Himself. Is that the dead Jesus, or the living Jesus?
Professing Christians lose much by not understanding that Jesus lives today to save us. He is not isolated in heaven just watching what goes on in this Earth. No, He is a living Savior working for our salvation. Where in heaven is Jesus and what is He doing? Is He not a mediator? What is the office of a mediator?
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"much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."
His suffering and death did in fact pay the price for our sins.
Richard, you posted more but I'm gonna be a little singular here and focus in on the reconciled part because that is what didn't make sense to me. Are you saying that the "being reconciled" in this verse is strictly speaking to the fact that Christ paid our penalty? That makes sense to me but if that is the case I wish a different word was used. Maybe reconciled meant something different in the KVJ language at the time. Yes, Christ paid the price for us but that doesn't mean the relationship has been fully reconciled. The fact that Christ paid the price to mend the bridge so the sinner can return to Christ doesn't mean the sinner will choose to make use of the repaired bridge.
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I see where it can be confusing. Communications is hard at the best of times.
Are you saying that the "being reconciled" in this verse is strictly speaking to the fact that Christ paid our penalty?
No. Being reconciled means being re-united with God. As I understand the verse, it is being used in a general sense. It could be understood to mean that being reconciled did not result in being saved. But, that is not the case. We know that when one is reconciled, he is in a saved condition. Therefore, we have two statements referring to being saved. The first: "when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son." When we were reconciled we were saved. The second: "much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." We are also saved by His life. One statement does not preclude the other. As Seventh-day Adventists, we are familiar with those who only pay attention to what was done at the cross to save man. But, we know that there is more being done to save man, than what was done at the cross. It is true that when reconciled by the death of Christ, we are justified when we accept that sacrifice. But, "much more" is involved in the plan of salvation. I have a living Savior who is my Mediator, Protector, Teacher, Big Brother, and Savior. I thank God for Jesus who takes my prayers and presents them before our heavenly Father. What would we do without Jesus!!
So....you can answer my two questions easily. How does being reconciled to God save man?
How does the life of Christ save us?
It can be easy to be confused because salvation is very specific. But, even though it is specific listen to this: We are saved by grace. But, then we read that we are saved by faith. And then we read that not only by faith, but by works is a man justified (saved). "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified." These all makes sense, but taken by themselves appear to be contradictory.
After preaching, I have been approached by someone who takes what I said to be contrary to what I meant. It is easily resolved when I have the opportunity to explain. We lack words to specifically express what we mean so that misunderstanding does happen.
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I haven't forgotten about the post just before this but right now I have more pressing matters. I'm wondering what other understand and believe about the following verses.
Heb 6:4-Heb 6:6 KJV For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
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I haven't forgotten about the post just before this but right now I have more pressing matters. I'm wondering what other understand and believe about the following verses.
Heb 6:4-Heb 6:6 KJV For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
You may be trying to reconcile these verses with those referring to Solomon and Manasseh. I think the verses are saying that there is such a thing as a point of no return and the more light one has and walks away from the more apt they are to have commit the unpardonable. It is not a light matter to know and walk in the light and then walk back out toying with God. Perhaps these verses are speaking to those that think they can go back out into the world and just return to God anytime they want to.
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Thanks Cp for your thoughts. I'm not trying to reconcile those verses with your two examples. I'm wondering what "fall away" means and how it applies when and to who? Are there any examples of this type of person in the Bible.
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Thanks Cp for your thoughts. I'm not trying to reconcile those verses with your two examples. I'm wondering what "fall away" means and how it applies when and to who? Are there any examples of this type of person in the Bible.
The reason I mentioned those two is because many would ask, did they not fall away and come back ?
There are many examples in the Bible of this. Many kings of Israel were walking in the light and then walked out into darkness. Scripture indicates that they never came back. Judas might be an example of this and when Satan entered into him it was impossible for him to return to God. Contemporary examples might be John Harvey Kellogg, Jones and Waggoner, Ratcliff, Ford.
I don't think we can often nail this down with individuals today because #1 it may be difficult to know if any particular individual has fully accepted the truth in his heart and in many cases it can also be difficult to know if and when they have completely turned their back on the truth because one has to be able to read the heart to do that. Things can appear good or appear bad but the appearance may not be entirely accurate of the heart condition.
It would seem likely though if an SDA pastor who has been zealous for the truth leaves the church and goes on the attack against the church, its message, and its prophet that they would fall into that category. I'm sure there are many more subtle instances where the verses you quoted apply its just that finite man my not be able to accurately recognize them. God knows. Things are not always what they appear. A person can be in full rebellion and keep it deep within the heart.
It seems of the verses you speak of that it is not so much that we can or should try to nail down who did and who did not but that there is great danger in walking in the light and then turning our backs on it.
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The reason I mentioned those two is because many would ask, did they not fall away and come back ?
There are many reasons why one would want to understand these verses much better than a surface reading. I'm not interested in guessing games, maybes, and probablys. There was a reason why I was looking for known Biblical examples. One of those reasons could be that the enemy is bellowing these verses into snomeone's ear and has them convinced that they are doomed and there is no hope. I know for a fact that is one of enemy's tricks and I was hoping to gain from my fellow Bible students a clearer understanding of what is meant in these verses. A known Biblical example would be easy to examine to see how these verses and principles applied or don't apply whatever the case may be.
I'm still somewhat at a loss, except the phrase "to renew them again unto repentance" might be a clue. I can't help but wonder if such an individual would even desire to be renewed unto repentance.
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It is an important verse to correctly interpret. As you say, Jim, there are some who Satan has told there is no hope because after they became a Christian, they went back into the world. Here is the way I understand this and it gives many hope when they had none.
Is it true that many have been buried alive? If so, why were they buried alive? What does it mean to be buried alive. From what I have seen in the last 30 years, the church remains in a Laodicean condition. I think you can see where I am going with this. So many have become discouraged, often because they could not do that which they knew they ought to be doing. After being in the world, Jesus was still calling them back. But, as you say, Satan is telling them there is no hope and this verse is one of his lies.
Look closely at the verse and then consider if they really had "tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost." Most were not truly converted, so does the verse apply? You want an example from Scripture. How about the thief on the cross? Was he an Israelite? If so, then did he not think he was entitled to heaven before he fell away? Did he fall away from his religion? Now, the question to ask if the first two are true, then was he saved? While he knew of Jesus, he had not given his heart to him and was led astray by his evil friends. He had not tasted of His great love, did not know Jesus had to die. He had been deceived as most were. He did indeed go back into the world. What changed his life? He had not known these things in the past.
Hope this helps, Jim. I am sure that many others will be blessed to have this sorted out. It begins by understanding what it means to be converted. The Laodicean does not understand, for he believes he is just fine (converted) when in fact he is miserable, poor, wretched, blind, and naked. If the Laodicean goes into the world, then the verse does not apply.
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The key word in the text is " impossible." Greek " adunatos" definitions = " weak", "impossible", "unable." Could it be that the word "weak" is the better definition of the word in this text? That would make sense. A person who has walked in the light and leaves the light would certainly be weakened by that experience and "weak" in their ability to return to the light.
No one walked in more light than Lucifer. SOP seems to indicate that even deep into his rebellion in heaven he had the ability to repent or else God would not have offered it. He could have repented but it was most difficult to humbly renounce his pride and step back into the light. I believe one could conclude that his character was weakened by his sin making the choice more difficult. We are told that every sin committed makes it more difficult to repent. Not impossible but more difficult.
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The word "impossible" would fit in some applications because when one makes a wrong choice enough times it may be in a sense impossible to make the right choice. There is such a thing as sealing a choice, the right choice or.... the wrong choice. Character is not so easy to change as simply making a right choice one time. When one truly leaves the Lord it may come down to how many bridges have been burned. The reason I share this is because it is dangerous to presumptuously think one can do as he pleases and return to God when he pleases. It's not that easy and presumption like that will be the down fall of many.
There may be multiple applicable definitions for the word "adunatos" depending on specific conditions. How close was the person to God ? How far away did they walk from God. In other words how much light were they in at their peak with God and how far did their rebellion go when they walked away. One size in this verse does not fit all because not all that walked out the light have the same circumstances and heart condition. If they are walking back to God that would seem to indicate that they have not committed the unpardonable/sealed their decision. By the same token some have come back into the church with what appeared like repentance and then they wreak havoc on the truth and the church's standards. By their fruit ?
What I was trying to say in my first post is that the text is not so simplistically applied because God's people do not have a cookie cutter experience and we cannot read the heart of another. We can see the fruit and we can get an idea but that is usually about as far as we can go. The bottom line is that we are not able to absolutely determine when a person has reached the point of no return unless perhaps it is something like a wicked person renouncing God on their death bed. We cannot even always be sure when a person returns to God. Just because they come back into the church is not proof of that. Ultimately these verses are a caution and warning as to the danger of walking away from God's enchanted ground and back out into the world. I don't think the verses present hopelessness in every/any situation but rather the severe danger when it comes to making a choice to leave God.
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One of the key reasons for impossibility for renewal seems to be this >
seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh
If crucifying of Christ by them is referring to a once done, repented of thing, renewal is possible, because with God all things are possible.
But if the crucifying is ongoing > the refusing to repent makes renewal impossible.
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There may be exceptions but probably in most instances if a person is worried about their salvation there is still opportunity for repentance. In other words, the heart is not entirely closed off against God.
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I think in many cases you are right, cp. But, guilt is still gnawing at many. Judas was lost and he was truly worried about being lost. When Adam sinned, he lost his holiness and became evil. But, he did not lose the higher powers of the mind. He still had intelligence, the ability to reason, and a conscience. Being evil, he had no ability to do what was right for the right reason. He was selfish and needed to be reconciled to God in order to overcome his evil nature.
When we continue to sin, we sear that conscience so it becomes harder to hear that still small voice speaking to us. At some point if man continues to sin against his conscience, he is no longer able to hear the Spirit calling. He is lost and it is impossible for him to be converted. The guilt remains as does the knowledge of salvation. These individuals have good reason to worry about their condition. The Bible reveals what is in store for them on judgment day. But, worrying does not change their character.
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This topic makes me think of Esau and him trying to have what he threw away on his terms, and not God's terms.
In past ages there have been those who have exercised their capabilities and powers in doing a work, by the help of the Holy Spirit, which constituted them laborers together with God. But there have also been those who have criticized their work, and rejected the messages which they bore. So it is today. There are those in responsible positions who, by their words and actions, sow seeds of doubt and unbelief. These seeds are called tares by our Lord; and those who sow it are under the guidance of evil angels. They are at work both openly and secretly, seeking to counteract the work which God has appointed his divine agencies to perform through human agencies. All who do this work see with defective and perverted eyesight. Their imagination is inspired by satanic agencies, and they see many things in a false light. Unless they repent, they will soon, like Esau, find no place for repentance, though they seek it carefully with tears.--Letter 87, 1896, p. 6 (Aug. 25, 1896, to O. A. Olsen). {ChL 58.2}
Esau had lightly valued the blessing while it seemed within his reach, but he desired to possess it now that it was gone from him forever. All the strength of his impulsive, passionate nature was aroused, and his grief and rage were terrible. He cried with an exceeding bitter cry, "Bless me, even me also, O my father!" "Hast thou not reserved a blessing for me?" But the promise given was not to be recalled. The birthright which he had so carelessly bartered he could not now regain. "For one morsel of meat," for a momentary gratification of appetite that had never been restrained, Esau sold his inheritance; but when he saw his folly, it was too late to recover the blessing. "He found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears." Hebrews 12:16, 17. Esau was not shut out from the privilege of seeking God's favor by repentance, but he could find no means of recovering the birthright. His grief did not spring from conviction of sin; he did not desire to be reconciled to God. He sorrowed because of the results of his sin, but not for the sin itself. {PP 181.2}
Because of his indifference to the divine blessings and requirements, Esau is called in Scripture "a profane person." Verse 16. He represents those who lightly value the redemption purchased for them by Christ, and are ready to sacrifice their heirship to heaven for the perishable things of earth. Multitudes live for the present, with no thought or care for the future. Like Esau they cry, "Let us eat and drink; for tomorrow we die." 1 Corinthians 15:32. They are controlled by inclination; and rather than practice self-denial, they will forgo the most valuable considerations. If one must be relinquished, the gratification of a depraved appetite or the heavenly blessings promised only to the self-denying and God-fearing, the claims of appetite prevail, and God and heaven are virtually despised. How many, even of professed Christians, cling to indulgences that are injurious to health and that benumb the sensibilities of the soul. When the duty is presented of cleansing themselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God, they are offended. They see that they cannot retain these hurtful gratifications and yet secure heaven, and they conclude that since the way to eternal life is so strait, they will no longer walk therein. {PP 181.3}
Multitudes are selling their birthright for sensual indulgence. Health is sacrificed, the mental faculties are enfeebled, and heaven is forfeited; and all for a mere temporary pleasure--an indulgence at once both weakening and debasing in its character. As Esau awoke to see the folly of his rash exchange when it was too late to recover his loss, so it will be in the day of God with those who have bartered their heirship to heaven for selfish gratifications. {PP 182.1}
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Maybe I should qualify my statement further to make it more accurate. If a person is concerned about their salvation from the standpoint of wanting to redeem the time and serve God on His terms probably he has not gone too far against God. That was not the case with Judas. While he might have been concerned about his salvation it was more after the repentance of Pharaoh than that of Peter.
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Amen!!
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I have a question for the Bible students who read here.
Any thoughts on why God spared Cain? After he was caught the Lord cursed him but didn't allow him to be killed. Here is Cain's response.
Gen 4:14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
Gen 4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
It seems that Cain was well aware of the principle to be followed in Gen 9:6 and was worried that someone would kill him.
Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
But not only did the Lord the spare him but He in a way protected Cain. I'm just thinking out loud here but could it be fore the same reason the Lord spared Lucifer?
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Maybe someone can verify this, but I believe, if I recall right, it was for just that reason, Jim.
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I have a question for the Bible students who read here.
Any thoughts on why God spared Cain? After he was caught the Lord cursed him but didn't allow him to be killed. Here is Cain's response.
Maybe this will shed a little light on the subject.
"Notwithstanding that Cain had by his crimes merited the sentence of death, a merciful Creator still spared his life, and granted him opportunity for repentance. . . .
"In sparing the life of the first murderer, God presented before the whole universe a lesson bearing upon the great controversy. The dark history of Cain and his descendants was an illustration of what would have been the result of permitting the sinner to live on forever, to carry out his rebellion against God. The forbearance of God only rendered the wicked more bold and defiant in their iniquity. Fifteen centuries after the sentence pronounced upon Cain, the universe witnessed the fruition of his influence and example, in the crime and pollution that flooded the earth. It was made manifest that the sentence of death pronounced upon the fallen race for the transgression of God’s law was both just and merciful." PP 78
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Wally, thanks for this. It's nice to have my thoughts confirmed.
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Genesis 5:28-29
(28) And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:
(29) And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.
This really isn't a "difficult" Bible verse and I'm thinking there really isn't an answer to my question but when I read this recently I couldn't help but wonder if Lamech for some reason though that Noah would be the Messiah?
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Maybe that the Messiah would come through his line?
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There may be exceptions but probably in most instances if a person is worried about their salvation there is still opportunity for repentance. In other words, the heart is not entirely closed off against God.
I've been listening to the book "The Great Second Advent Movement" by JN Loughborough and came across this story. I thought it was appropriate in light of the discussion we had earlier about people worrying about their condition. You can find it chapter 24 - Other Predictions Fulfilled
Relief to the Despairing
In the early morning of Dec. 12, 1866, Elias Stiles, of North Liberty, Ind., came to my home, requesting me to go with him to that place to administer relief, if possible, to James Harvey, who was in despair, and feeling that there was no hope in his case. Knowing that Mrs. White had had a very extensive view in the last vision given, and that many cases were shown to her prophetically, I said to him, “It may be that Sister White has seen something about his case, and if so, and if she will write it out, it will be more forcible than anything I could say to him.” We at once called upon her, and without a word being spoken to her of Mr. Harvey’s condition, I asked, “Sister White, have you had any light in any of the visions given you concerning the case of Brother James Harvey?” “Yes,” said she, “I have, and I have felt for a few days as though I ought to write it out, and send it to him.” She then began to tell us what she had seen. I said, “I am going to see him in the morning, and if you will write out what has been shown to you, I will take it to him.” With this understanding, we left her, and in the evening we called again. She had completed the writing, and favored us by reading it aloud.
Testimony for James Harvey in Despair
The testimony stated clearly that Mr. Harvey would be brought into a feeble condition of health, and that Satan would seek to crowd him into despair, and try to make him think there was no mercy for him, and no hope in his case; but she saw he had done all in his power to rectify the mistakes of his past life, and that God had forgiven him; and furthermore, when he should be tempted to destroy himself, she was shown that angels of God were hovering around him and pointing him to hope in God and heaven. There were many like words of comfort and encouragement in the testimony. With this document in my possession, we went the next morning to North Liberty.
On the way, Mr. Stiles told me that Mr. Harvey wanted to see me, but he said that I would have no word of hope for him; that, when I should meet him, I would agree with him that his case was hopeless, that he was a lost man; and then, like Eli of old, when he was told that the ark of God was taken, he should fall over backward and die. We arrived at Mr. Harvey’s about 3 P.M. When I met him, I said, “Brother Harvey, how are you?” In a most lamentable strain he replied, “Lost! lost!! LOST!!!” “No you are not lost. There is hope in your case!” said I. When he saw that I thus answered him, he said, in a modulated tone, “I have thought for three weeks that there was no hope for me, and that I was lost; and to-day, as I was coming into town from the farm, and passing over the bridge at the mill-pond, something seemed to say to me, ‘You are lost! There is no hope for you! Jump into the mill-pond and drown yourself!’ I thought to do such a thing would bring reproach on the cause of Christ, and so I was restrained from destroying myself.”
Deliverance Came Quickly
“Well, Brother Harvey, you are not lost!” I said. “I have a testimony here direct from heaven, saying that you are not lost!” He replied, “Then I will hear it.” I then read the testimony to him, after first stating that not one word had been placed in my hands. As I completed the reading, his face lighted up with a smile as he said, “Then there is hope in my case. I do believe in the Lord.” Following the reading, we had a praying season, from which he arose a changed and happy man. He told us that that writing described the workings of his mind for the last three weeks more accurately than he could possibly have done it. Thus the love of God was shown in lifting this brother, by this means, out of despair.
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I don't mean to belabor this point but ever since this topic came up I've been trying to re-find this reference that I knew I had read a couple of years back and just tonight I've finally found it. This just shows me that this is trap that satan uses depending on the person.
A soul whom God had forsaken would never feel as you [FROM A LETTER OF COMFORT TO A TROUBLED HEART] have felt and would never love the truth and salvation as you have loved it. Oh, if God's Spirit ceases to strive with a soul it is left in an indifferent state, and all the time thinks that it is well enough off. . . . You must not gratify the enemy in the least by doubting and casting away your confidence. Said the angel, "God leaves not His people, even if they err. He turns not from them in wrath for any light thing. If they sin they have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." {HP 119.2}
This Advocate pleads for sinners and the Father accepts His prayer. He turns not away the request of His beloved Son. He who so loved you as to give His own life for you will not turn you off and forsake you unless you willfully, determinedly forsake Him to serve the world and Satan. Jesus loves to have you come to Him just as you are, hopeless and helpless, and cast yourself upon His all- abundant mercy and believe that He will receive you just as you are. {HP 119.3}
You dwell upon the dark side. You must turn your mind away, and instead of thinking all the time upon the wrath of God, think of His abundant mercy, His willingness to save poor sinners, and then believe He saves you. You must in the name of God break this spell that is upon you. You must cry out, "I will, I do believe!" Jesus retains your name upon His breastplate and pleads for you before His Father, and if your eyes could be opened you would see heavenly angels ministering unto you, hovering about and driving back the evil angels that they should not utterly destroy. . . . {HP 119.4}
God calls upon you to believe. Heed His voice. Cease talking of the wrath of God and talk of His compassion and His abundant mercy. Jesus sits as a refiner and purifier of silver. The furnace in which you may be placed may be very hot, yet you will come forth as gold seven times purified, reflecting the image of Jesus. Have courage. Look up, believe, and you shall see of the salvation of God. {HP 119.5}
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Amen, Jim! This message reminds me of the church in 1888, and the message God brought in order to bring about a reformation. We, as Seventh-day Adventists understand the law has not been done away with, and it is still binding. But, the church had been preaching the law, the law, the law until it was as dry as the hills of Gilboa. The law does not save anyone, it condemns. Jesus saves! We need to behold the loveliness of Jesus in order to be changed (converted).
It is grace that transforms the character. And grace is around us as thick as the air we breathe. We must drink it in if we are to receive a benefit. We need to behold Jesus, and in so doing we shall want to give the whole heart to Him. If we lack faith, we need to learn of Him who gave all for us. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word. The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us that we might know Him. It would be well for us to spend some time each day contemplating His character! Then we shall not lament our trials, but glory in them.
Thanks for sharing these encouraging statements, Jim.
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What sweet assurance. Thank you Jim.
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Exodus 15:26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the Lord thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the Lord that healeth thee.
Sometimes when following the counsel to take the Bible just as it reads, for me anyway, presents little difficulties here and there and this is one of them. Did the Lord purposely give diseases to the Egyptians? Or is this an example of phrase where the Bible says that God hardened pharaoh's heart?
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Exodus 15:26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the Lord thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the Lord that healeth thee.
Sometimes when following the counsel to take the Bible just as it reads, for me anyway, presents little difficulties here and there and this is one of them. Did the Lord purposely give diseases to the Egyptians? Or is this an example of phrase where the Bible says that God hardened pharaoh's heart?
Yes, the same. It is helpful to know the Jewish mindset. They considered that to not stop something is to do it. In other words, if you are able but unwilling to pull another's ass out of the pit it is the same as if you put him there. To not protect the Egyptians from them bringing disease upon themselves may have been viewed as causing the diseases. After a fashion this still holds true today and is not necessarily incorrect. When a person of position ( especially) refuses to warn another of his sin he is held accountable as though he himself committed the sin. I'm sure that is not true in every case or else we would have to 24/7 run up and down the streets yelling "repent." But for instance if the pastor or elders know another elder is living in adultery and they sweep it under the rug they will be held accountable as though they too were living in adultery. The parallel may not be identical but somewhat the same in principle.
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Great question Jim. Let's take this opportunity to do a little Bible study. Where shall we begin? I believe if we begin where we ought to begin, we will find the answer very quickly.
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Great question Jim. Let's take this opportunity to do a little Bible study. Where shall we begin? I believe if we begin where we ought to begin, we will find the answer very quickly.
A riddle? :) That's ok, I'll think about it for a bit.
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Here's a clue. False teachers will twist Scripture to deceive. How do they most often get away with this?
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Here's a clue. False teachers will twist Scripture to deceive. How do they most often get away with this?
One reason why they get away with this is because many do not have a love for the truth and the daily and minute by minute connection with God is missing in their life.
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Acts 17:11
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I think Jim already gave the answer when comparing this to Pharoah. Like with Pharoah's heart God simply allowed nature to take its course without interrupting it.
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Lewis, good to see your post! I think you present a truth. If more were truly converted, there would not be silence regarding the false teachings.
When Jim asked the question, the Holy Spirit touched my mind with an answer. It was different from that which I had always understood the verse to mean. It is a blessing to know that when we love God with the whole heart, and obey His teachings, we will see great light in the area of health reform. Thus, many of the diseases which the Egyptians suffered will not afflict us. But, when the Spirit touched my mind, it was not with this truth.
So, if we are good Bible students, where do we start in our study?
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I was just listening to a sermon by Elder Jay Gallimore. He began by sharing "context is just about everything......You can make something say about anything when you take it out of context." And, this is where we must begin when we want to better understand a verse in Scripture.
So, we must read the verse in its context if we want to understand what is being said. What the Holy Spirit impressed me with when Jim asked the question, was what is the context of the verse? I had never really went to the context to see what was being said. If I were to take the verse just as it reads, then it appears to say that God brought the diseases upon the Egyptians. Let's read in context and see if this is what was meant.
When you read in context, what do you find? How much do you have to read in order to under the context in this particular situation?
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When you read in context, what do you find? How much do you have to read in order to under the context in this particular situation?
How much do you have to read? Sometimes I've seen the need to read a whole chapter or maybe 2. Other times just a verse or two before or after helps. Here is the context here...
Exo 15:22-27 So Moses brought Israel from the Red sea, and they went out into the wilderness of Shur; and they went three days in the wilderness, and found no water. (23) And when they came to Marah, they could not drink of the waters of Marah, for they were bitter: therefore the name of it was called Marah. (24) And the people murmured against Moses, saying, What shall we drink? (25) And he cried unto the LORD; and the LORD shewed him a tree, which when he had cast into the waters, the waters were made sweet: there he made for them a statute and an ordinance, and there he proved them, (26) And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee. (27) And they came to Elim, where were twelve wells of water, and threescore and ten palm trees: and they encamped there by the waters.
Just before this is the song of Moses.
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Let's look at what is being said. What is the lesson we are to learn from this chapter?
15:3 The LORD [is] a man of war: the LORD [is] his name.
15:4 Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea.
15:5 The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone.
15:6 Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.
15:7 And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, [which] consumed them as stubble.
15:8 And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, [and] the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.
15:9 The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them.
15:10 Thou didst blow with thy wind, the sea covered them: they sank as lead in the mighty waters.
15:11 Who [is] like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who [is] like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful [in] praises, doing wonders?
God is omnipotent. He will literally destroy the enemy. What does that have to do with the verse we are seeking light on?
Maybe we need to look a little further back, to see if God in fact ever used disease as punishment to the Egyptians? Would God do that? Most don't think so. God is too loving, even if He did drown the Egyptians.......and every living person on the Earth except for those in the ark.
So, in context, if we go back a little further to see if God would bring any disease upon Israel, did He?
There is a lesson in the verse. "If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians." Many don't want to hear the lesson. Why not?
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Has anyone came across those who are preaching that those who are raised in the special resurrection make up part of the 144,000 ? That makes for a very strange scenario as it is being taught they that have been resurrected ( with new bodies not subject to death) and will face the final death decree together. How could those with immortal bodies have much concern over mortal man taking their lives ? How would that be a test of faith and character ?
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As I understand, cp, I dont't think they face anything as do the living saints. They come up just to see the coming of Christ.
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Has anyone came across those who are preaching that those who are raised in the special resurrection make up part of the 144,000 ? That makes for a very strange scenario as it is being taught they that have been resurrected ( with new bodies not subject to death) and will face the final death decree together. How could those with immortal bodies have much concern over mortal man taking their lives ? How would that be a test of faith and character ?
The SOP says repeatedly that the 144,000 are taken from the living. Here are a couple of examples.
Upon the crystal sea before the throne, that sea of glass as it were mingled with fire,--so resplendent is it with the glory of God,--are gathered the company that have "gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name." With the Lamb upon Mount Zion, "having the harps of God," they stand, the hundred and forty and four thousand that were redeemed from among men; and there is heard, as the sound of many waters, and as the sound of a great thunder, "the voice of harpers harping with their harps." And they sing "a new song" before the throne, a song which no man can learn save the hundred and forty and four thousand. It is the song of Moses and the Lamb--a song of deliverance. None but the hundred and forty-four thousand can learn that song; for it is the song of their experience--an experience such as no other company have ever had. "These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth." These, having been translated from the earth, from among the living, are counted as "the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb." Revelation 15:2, 3; 14:1-5. "These are they which came out of great tribulation;" they have passed through the time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation; they have endured the anguish of the time of Jacob's trouble; they have stood without an intercessor through the final outpouring of God's judgments. But they have been delivered, for they have "washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." "In their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault" before God. "Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them." They have seen the earth wasted with famine and pestilence, the sun having power to scorch men with great heat, and they themselves have endured suffering, hunger, and thirst. But "they shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes." Revelation 7:14-17. {GC 648.3}
Elijah was a type of the saints who will be living on the earth at the time of the second advent of Christ and who will be "changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump," without tasting of death. 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52. It was as a representative of those who shall be thus translated that Elijah, near the close of Christ's earthly ministry, was permitted to stand with Moses by the side of the Saviour on the mount of transfiguration. In these glorified ones, the disciples saw in miniature a representation of the kingdom of the redeemed. They beheld Jesus clothed with the light of heaven; they heard the "voice out of the cloud" (Luke 9:35), acknowledging Him as the Son of God; they saw Moses, representing those who will be raised from the dead at the time of the second advent; and there also stood Elijah, representing those who at the close of earth's history will be changed from mortal to immortal and be translated to heaven without seeing death. {PK 227.2}
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So, in context, if we go back a little further to see if God would bring any disease upon Israel, did He?
There is a lesson in the verse. "If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians." Many don't want to hear the lesson. Why not?
Richard, it may be that others saw your point but I'm still left thinking about it. When you asked if would bring disease upon Israel I was left thinking for examples. Immediately my mind went to Miriam but that doesn't happen until Numbers which is long after verse we are talking about. More closely at hand was the plague of boils but I can't remember off the top of my head if that was one that Hebrews were protected from.
When we are done dealing with this verse I have another one of similar nature.
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As I understand, cp, I dont't think they face anything as do the living saints. They come up just to see the coming of Christ.
That's my understanding as well, Richard and Glen. Andrew Henrique's belief is that those who are raised ARE living during the time between being raised and the second coming of Christ. He is right in the sense that there is a time frame there of which we know not how long that will be. However, SOP is clear at the mount of transfiguration that Moses was resurrected and Elijah was translated. I think he is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole by claiming that those resurrected are translated. Mrs. White never refers to Moses as having been translated, neither does she say that those who are raised are translated.
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As I understand, cp, I dont't think they face anything as do the living saints. They come up just to see the coming of Christ.
That's my understanding as well, Richard and Glen. Andrew Henrique's belief is that those who are raised ARE living during the time between being raised and the second coming of Christ. He is right in the sense that there is a time frame there of which we know not how long that will be. However, SOP is clear at the mount of transfiguration that Moses was resurrected and Elijah was translated. I think he is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole by claiming that those resurrected are translated. Mrs. White never refers to Moses as having been translated, neither does she say that those who are raised are translated.
The 144,000 are taken from among the living, but only from the living who have never tasted death. This rules out the righteous raised as part of the special resurrection.
The PK 227 quote listed above talks about this in the first sentence.
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As I understand, cp, I dont't think they face anything as do the living saints. They come up just to see the coming of Christ.
That's my understanding as well, Richard and Glen. Andrew Henrique's belief is that those who are raised ARE living during the time between being raised and the second coming of Christ. He is right in the sense that there is a time frame there of which we know not how long that will be. However, SOP is clear at the mount of transfiguration that Moses was resurrected and Elijah was translated. I think he is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole by claiming that those resurrected are translated. Mrs. White never refers to Moses as having been translated, neither does she say that those who are raised are translated.
The 144,000 are taken from among the living, but only from the living who have never tasted death. This rules out the righteous raised as part of the special resurrection.
The PK 227 quote listed above talks about this in the first sentence.
Glen, I did a word search on "tasted death" and could not find that quote in PK.
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"Without tasting of death" (PK 227.2).
Another quote which says a similar thing is below.
Jesus had told His disciples that there were some standing with Him who should not taste of death till they should see the kingdom of God come with power. At the transfiguration this promise was fulfilled. The countenance of Jesus was there changed and shone like the sun. His raiment was white and glistening. Moses was present to represent those who will be raised from the dead at the second appearing of Jesus. And Elijah, who was translated without seeing death, represented those who will be changed to immortality at Christ's second coming and will be translated to heaven without seeing death. The disciples beheld with astonishment and fear the excellent majesty of Jesus and the cloud that overshadowed them, and heard the voice of God in terrible majesty, saying, "This is My beloved Son; hear Him." {EW 164.3}
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So, in context, if we go back a little further to see if God would bring any disease upon Israel, did He?
There is a lesson in the verse. "If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians." Many don't want to hear the lesson. Why not?
Richard, it may be that others saw your point but I'm still left thinking about it. When you asked if would bring disease upon Israel I was left thinking for examples. Immediately my mind went to Miriam but that doesn't happen until Numbers which is long after verse we are talking about. More closely at hand was the plague of boils but I can't remember off the top of my head if that was one that Hebrews were protected from.
Jim, I think that you see the point being made in the context of the verse. What did God inspire Moses to write of in Exodus 15? What is the lesson to be learned by us today from chapter 15, and how is that revealed in the verse in question?
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I see now I (we) didn't completely finish my other question and I will come back to it. However, I have another one that was asked of me and I didn't have an answer that I was satisfied with and all my normal resources are Here is passage. The question really surrounds verse 5. I was going to state the question that was asked me but I'm going to wait as now that I think about it I don't want to taint or influence any answers given. So I will do this... what is verse 5 telling us?
Micah 4:1-7
1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the Lord of hosts hath spoken it.
5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever.
6 In that day, saith the Lord, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;
7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the Lord shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.
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I see now I (we) didn't completely finish my other question and I will come back to it. However, I have another one that was asked of me and I didn't have an answer that I was satisfied with and all my normal resources are Here is passage. The question really surrounds verse 5. I was going to state the question that was asked me but I'm going to wait as now that I think about it I don't want to taint or influence any answers given. So I will do this... what is verse 5 telling us?
Micah 4:1-7
5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever.
Micah and Isaiah were contemporaries, and Micah 4:1-3 is closely related to Isaiah 2:2-4, re the idea of spiritual restoration at some future point. A similar theme is found in Ezekiel chapters 40-48.
There has been quite a bit of speculation about what such restoration entails, and I don't know the answer. However, at this late point in earth's history, it seems unlikely that restoration involves the flourishing of any temporal kingdom, whether it means Israel literally restored or any other political entity like the USA. The same is true of any temporal church.
The only thing that it seems like it could mean is the final proclamation of the full gospel to the world, for example as illustrated in the quotes below. I'm not sure what Micah 4:5 is saying in this context, but a mundane explanation would be that some people will accept this full gospel, and others will stick with the gods they already have.
Servants of God, with their faces lighted up and shining with holy consecration, will hasten from place to place to proclaim the message from heaven. By thousands of voices, all over the earth, the warning will be given. Miracles will be wrought, the sick will be healed, and signs and wonders will follow the believers. Satan also works, with lying wonders, even bringing down fire from heaven in the sight of men. Revelation 13:13. Thus the inhabitants of the earth will be brought to take their stand. {GC 612.1}
The message will be carried not so much by argument as by the deep conviction of the Spirit of God. The arguments have been presented. The seed has been sown, and now it will spring up and bear fruit. The publications distributed by missionary workers have exerted their influence, yet many whose minds were impressed have been prevented from fully comprehending the truth or from yielding obedience. Now the rays of light penetrate everywhere, the truth is seen in its clearness, and the honest children of God sever the bands which have held them. Family connections, church relations, are powerless to stay them now. Truth is more precious than all besides. Notwithstanding the agencies combined against the truth, a large number take their stand upon the Lord's side. {GC 612.2}
The end is near! We have not a moment to lose! Light is to shine forth from God's people in clear, distinct rays, bringing Jesus before the churches and before the world. Our work is not to be restricted to those who already know the truth; our field is the world. The instrumentalities to be used are those souls who gladly receive the light of truth which God communicates to them. These are God's agencies for communicating the knowledge of truth to the world. If through the grace of Christ his people will become new bottles, he will fill them with the new wine. God will give additional light, and old truths will be recovered, and replaced in the frame-work of truth; and wherever the laborers go, they will triumph. As Christ's ambassadors, they are to search the Scriptures, to seek for the truths that have been hidden beneath the rubbish of error. And every ray of light received is to be communicated to others. One interest will prevail, one subject will swallow up every other,--Christ our righteousness. {RH, December 23, 1890 par. 19}
The Lord God of heaven will not send upon the world His judgments for disobedience and transgression until He has sent His watchmen to give the warning. He will not close up the period of probation until the message shall be more distinctly proclaimed. The law of God is to be magnified; its claims must be presented in their true, sacred character, that the people may be brought to decide for or against the truth. Yet the work will be cut short in righteousness. The message of Christ's righteousness is to sound from one end of the earth to the other to prepare the way of the Lord. This is the glory of God, which closes the work of the third angel. {6T 19.1}