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A correct understanding of these verses will be a great help in seeing the gospel of Jesus Christ. Why is there such a need to correctly understand these verses? They have been wrested in the teachings of many within the church.
It is a blessing to be able to take in context these verses and clearly understand that Paul was expressing the victory one obtains when filled with the Holy Spirit and the torment one feels when conviction of the law comes home to the heart, by the Holy Spirit, but no surrender of the will is made.
Let us begin with verse 7:5. "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death." Paul is talking about when we were lost without a Saviour. He says that the acts of sin, which were revealed by the law of God, did work through our flesh to bring us under the condemnation of broken law.
Any comments before continuing?
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Happy Sabbath to you all!!
Richard, you certainly picked an interesting topic.I have in my library a little book called "Bible Studies on the Book of Romans "by E.J.Waggoner.
Here is one excerpt that caught my eye.
"What is the difference between the would-be Christian, who knows the law, but does not keep it, and the worlding who does not keep the law, and does not acknowledge that it is good?
Simply this: We are unwilling slaves, and they are willing slaves. We are all the time distracted and sorrowful, and getting nothing out of life at all, while the worlding does not worry himself in the least." p.54
"If one is going to sin, is it not better to be the worlding, who does not know there is such a thing as liberty, than to be the man who knows that there is a liberty, but cannot get it? If it has got to be slavery, if we must live in the sins of the world, then it is better to be in the world, partaking of its pleasures, then to be in miserable bondage, and have no hope of a life to come."
Ibid.
Kind of sums it up. doesn't it.
Of course there is a solution, but it can keep.
Keep "the" faith
Br. Laurie :0)
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Amen, Brother Laurie. Happy Sabbath to you and your family!
Thank you for sharing. It is so true. A knowledge of the law does not bring peace, but condemnation. The law has no power to save. Salvation comes through Jesus Christ as do all good gifts.
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Romans 7:6 "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." Now, after we receive Jesus Christ as our Saviour, we are delivered from the bondage of the law, delivered from the condemnation of the law; that, now having the law of love written upon our hearts we follow the spirit of the law, not just the letter while disobeying it's Spirit.
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If we keep our life hidden in His life, He will keep us from falling. And we live under grace. We come under the condemnation of the law, only if we break the law, if we remove our eyes from Christ, we follow self [sin].
Praise God we have the precious promises that He is able to present us faultless before His Father if we will but let Him live His life in us.
thank you jesus,
charlene
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good morning Laurie,
I had a conversation with some one that was speculating on 'what was going to happen with this world, there is so much crime."
I commented that in the bible, God told us exactly what was going to happen and I asked if they would like to study so they would know.
"NO!, I don't want to know." was the reply. I think this is 'wilful ignorance' and I believe God holds us responsible for what we could have known, but chose not to learn.
However, there are those who have had no opportunity to learn and have lived up to all the light they had, and were faithful even though they were commiting 'unknown sins.'
Does this sound right? I am still learning.
God Bless,
charlene
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Sister Charlene, if I might interject while waiting for Brother Laurie. On judgment day none will be condemned because the innocently believed a lie or unknowingly cherished error, but because they did not avail themselves of the opportunity to know truth. It is not a matter of eternal life, for that requires the new birth. It is the torture of known guilt that eats away at the soul. This is more painful to those that have the law and break it than to those who have not known the law and break it.
Willful ignorance is known to be such and with it comes the guilt. Does this bring us into harmony? :)
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Yes, we are in harmony. I have some quotes that say much better than I, what we are saying. I think the term 'sinful neglect' is very revealing.
The Great Controversy -PG- 313
At the time of Christ's first advent the priests and scribes of the Holy City, to whom were entrusted the oracles of God, might have discerned the signs of the times and proclaimed the coming of the Promised One. The prophecy of Micah designated His birthplace; Daniel specified the time of His advent. Micah 5:2; Daniel 9:25. God committed these prophecies to the Jewish leaders; they were without excuse if they did not know and declare to the people that the Messiah's coming was at hand. Their ignorance was the result of sinful neglect. The Jews were building monuments for the slain prophets of God, while by their deference to the great men of earth they were paying homage to the servants of Satan. Absorbed in their ambitious strife for place and power among men, they lost sight of the divine honors proffered them by the King of heaven."also
Advent Review and Sabbath Herald -DT- 04-25-93 - Accountability for Light
-PR- 10
It is plainly stated in the Scriptures that if the whole congregation sin through ignorance, the priests shall make an atonement for the sins when they are made apparent, and the sin of ignorance shall be forgiven. The work of Jesus is to forgive the sins of the past, but if light comes from heaven to the church, and men refuse the light because its acceptance involves a cross, then they stand guilty before God; for they have made it manifest that
they love the world more than they love Christ and the truth. Those who have an opportunity to hear the truth, and yet take no pains to hear or understand it, thinking that if they do not hear, they will not be accountable, will be judged guilty before God the same as if they had heard and rejected. There will be no excuse for those who choose to go in error when they might understand what is truth. In his sufferings and death Jesus has made atonement for all sins of ignorance, but there is no provision made for wilful blindness. Those who have hid their eyes from the truth lest they should be convinced, must exercise repentance toward God for the transgression of his law, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ, that their sins of ignorance in the transgression of the Sabbath may be forgiven."
That surely makes it clear. Let's study God's word, and allow the Holy Spirit to convict and convert. God is ready to give His precious Gifts. 2Peter 4: and onward
In His Love
charlene
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Romans 7:7
"What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."
What shall we say, is the law sin? GOD FORBID! NO, NO, NO! I would not have known what sin was if it was not for the law. I would not have known lust, except the law, the ten commandments, says, "Thou shalt not covet."
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Hello "family"!
Acts 17:30 "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but NOW commandeth all men (mankind) everywhere to repent."
This is an amazing quotation, for "perhaps at one time, ignorance was an excuse" Not any more! In fact, if opportunity presents itself, and people do not take advantage of the opportunity, they are held responsible. They will be guilty.
I had an interesting conversation yesterday with the post office person (26 yrs old). She, (Sue) said, "Laurie, what do you think will happen in this year 2000?" Sue is usually the one that mails my video parcels.
I said "Keep an eye on the Roman papacy". She then asked if I had any Biblical data...I directed her to Daniel chs 7,11, and Rev 13, and finally Dan 12:1-2 concerning the deliverance of God's people...showing her that there is NO secret rapture, but that God will step in after the time of trouble, and deliver His people.
Sue then said, before or after? I then directed her to Ps 23..."Yea, tho I walk thru the shadow of death, thou art with me"...and during the time of trouble God is there with us. I then told her to write down Psalm 50:3 "Our God shall come and not keep silent", and 1 Thess 4:16-17 When the Lord comes it is so LOUD that even the dead are awakened... Sue said, "how do you remember these texts?" I assured her that only by asking for Divine help, study, meditation, and sharing... Sue is open for more study...She remarked that she wanted to know more, because she did not want to be held accountable for what she DID NOT know.
Pray for Susan, and me too. I need the grace and love that Richard talks about, so that Jesus can reach her, by using me.
Br. Laurie
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Those faithful seekers of truth in the world will find God as they search with all the heart for Him. Such a blessing to find them, Brother Laurie. We will add Susan to our prayer list. Is she a Christian already, or do we pray for her conversion?
A question bearing on this subject: Was the rich young ruler innocent or guilty before he spoke with Jesus?
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Romans Chapter Seven (part 1 of 2)
7:5 "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were
by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit
unto death."
When we were unconverted, sin, which is known by the law, was
done by our flesh which brings us under the condemnation of the
broken law.
7:6 "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein
we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in
the oldness of the letter."
Now we delivered from the bondage of the law (the law cannot
save, only condemn),being spiritually dead in that bondage (wages
of sin is death); that NOW being converted we should serve in the
(HOLY) Spirit, and not in outward appearance only (whited sepulchar).
7:7 "What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid.Nay, I had
not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the
law had said, Thou shalt not covet."
Shall we say the law is wrong? God forbid!!
I would not have known I was sinning and lost and condemned if it
was not for the law: I would not have known I was lusting if I did
not know the law that says, thou shalt not covet.
7:8 "But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all
manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was
dead."
Sin (transgression of the law), now that the law is known, revealed
all manner of evil in me. Before I knew the law, I did not know sin.
7:9 "For I was alive without the law once: but when the
commandment came, sin revived, and I died."
I did not know I was under condemnation (death sentence) without
a knowledge of the depth of the law: but when I found out about the
depth of the law, that it reaches to the intents of the heart, then I
became guilty and saw myself spiritually dead (the law slayed me).
7:10 "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to
be unto death."
And the commandments which are Holy and just, and given for our
good, I found to cause my spiritual death (under the condemnation
of the bronken law).
Poor Saul, he is really confused. He was brought under condemnation
by the law of God and knows not how to get out from under the
death sentence. He, like most other Pharisees, prided themselves in
keeping the law, so it was quite a shock to him to find himself a law
breaker. The Holy Spirit began to convince him of his sins after he
participated in the stoning of Stephen.
7:11 "For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me,
and by it slew me."
For breaking the commandments that I then had knowledge of, I
came under condemnation. I knew I was walking after the flesh.
7:12 "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and
just, and good."
I see the law is good.
7:13 "Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid.
But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which
is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding
sinful."
Was the good law causing me to die? God forbid!!! The
commandments showed me I was under condemnation and then I
could see the great evil of breaking the commandments.
7:14 "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold
under sin."
We know the Ten Commandments are of God, but I am unholy, and
cannot help but sin. I am a slave to sin and cannot help myself. I
cannot stop sinning. I have no good fruit in my life. I manifest the
works of the flesh for I am carnal, of the flesh.
7:15 "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not;
but what I hate, that do I."
Really, I cannot do good even though I really want to. I want to quit
stealing, but I cannot. I want to love my neighbor, but I cannot. I
hate taking the Lord's name in vain, but I do it.
Paul was not converted, but he was learning of his need of a Saviour. Where are we today? Do we find ourselves in this situation, not being able to quit sinning? Not knowing how to walk in the Spirit? There is a solution to the problem. Paul will reveal the solution as we continue listening to his testimony.
In His love and grace, Richard
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7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law
that it is good." If I go 65 in a 55mph zone and say I don't really want to speed, I
acknowledge that the law is a good one and do not want to do
away with it.
7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in
me."
So even though I don't want to sin (I see it is wrong) I still do it
because my mind is under the control of my flesh.
7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good
thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that
which is good I find not."
Even though I want to obey God, I do not know how. I keep
sinning. I lie, I steal, I cheat, I break the seventh commandment. I
can not keep the law of God, BUT I want to Keep the law of God.
7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would
not, that I do."
I want to keep the commandments, but I continually break the
commandments.
7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin
that dwelleth in me."
Since I do that which I do not want to do, it is not me, but my
flesh that is sinful. I really want to do good, but my flesh just
keeps sinning.
7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present
with me."
I see a principle that even though I profess to be an Israelite, I am
not, I am evil. I do want to be a son of Abraham, but I am not
faithful as he was. I live as did Solomon when he fell.
7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:"
I love the law of God!!!
7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law
of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of
sin which is in my members."
But, I see another principle in my flesh warring against the law of
my mind, and bringing me into captivity to sin. I cannot resist sin. I cannot gain the victory over even "little" sins.
7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the
body of this death?
O wretched sinner that I am! Israel's One Great God cannot keep
me from sinning! I cannot keep myself from sinning! WHO, WHO,
WHO..... can deliver me from myself???? Is there not anyone that
can save me? I am condemned and lost.......
7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the
mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the
law of sin."
I have found the answer to my question! I now know "Who". I
have found a Saviour who I thought was an imposter and whos
disciples I persecuted. I did not understand that Jesus was the
Lamb of God. I now see why Abraham was asked to sacrifice his
son, for God did sacrifice His Son to pay the price for my sins. He
has come and delivered me from the law of sin and death. I now
can keep the law of God, I can do all things through Christ Jesus
who strengthens me. If I cease to look unto Jesus for grace, I
then have no power to do good and I then, in my flesh serve the
law of sin.
In his love and grace, Richard
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Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
My first "Bible" was a NIV and the common quote of Romans 8:1 is what is found in that "Bible". It is "evangelical" and is used to mislead. Here is the quote from the NIV: "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,"
It is true there is no condemnation to them that are "in Christ Jesus", but the KJV goes on and explains how you can know you are in Christ Jesus. "....who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
There has been a concerted effort to dismiss this Bible doctrine, but it is clear that the wages of sin is death and that those who are in Christ Jesus, do not "walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit." How do you see it? Is this not a common teaching within the church that there is no condemnation to those "in Christ" who walk after the flesh (after all, no one is perfect). Is this not contrary to what Romans 8:1 is saying?
There is no condemnation, because there is no sin that has not been confessed that is known. In Christ the Christian is a partaker of the divine nature and is granted grace (power) to overcome. "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." Philippians 4:13.
This does not mean that the Christian will not fall, but rather that in Christ He walks in the light as He is in the light.
Richard
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Romans 8:2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
We have seen a shift now in the last verse of Romans 7 and the first two verses in Romans 8. Where Paul in Romans 7 was talking about his pre-conversion experience where he did not know he needed a Saviour, he now is discussing the "converted" Paul with a Saviour in His heart. He began Romans 8 by rejoicing that he no longer is under the condemnation he had been under because he is now able to keep the law, walking in the Spirit. Verse two may be contrasted with verse 23 in chapter 7. Remember Paul was saying he had been brought into "captivity to the law of sin." Now in chapter 8, after his conversion, he has been made "free from the law of sin and death."
When studied under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit this truth can clearly be seen. Even so, God does not rest this presentation, but inspired the apostle to continue so there would be no excuse for misunderstanding what Jesus in the heart does for the sinner.
As we continue in Romans 8 we shall see this understanding confirmed again and again. And, while we move forward in chapter 8, you might review backwards too, and see what the apostle says in chapters 5 and 6 in regards to sinning.
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A quick comment on the law to add to what has already been said.
Once upon eternity, there was no need for laws because all of the inhabitants of the entire universe lived by "every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." What God asked of His creation was done without hesitation and without reservation.
Ellen White tells us that sin began with him who was next to Christ. The Bible identifies this being as Lucifer (the devil) who "was a murderer from the beginning and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him..." (John 8:44). It was he who had the boldness without shame to question God and poison the minds of one third of the heavenly angelic host causing them to follow him in rebellion against the Most High. We all know the rest of the story.
My point is laws exist BECAUSE OF SIN. The Bible tells us: "I had not known sin, but by the law;.." (Romans 7:7). Romans 3:20 reads: "By the law is the knowledge of sin." In other words, "God's law is like a mirror (James 1:23-25). It points out wrongdoing in my life as a mirror points out dirt on my face. The only posible way for a person to know he is sinning is for him to carefully check his life by the mirror of God's law..." (AFBSG, "You Are Responsible," p. 3).
Laws do not save. What they do is described above. They point us to our need for a Savior. ONLY JESUS SAVES! "Neither is there salvation in any other..." (Acts 4:12).
One day in the not too distant future when sin and sinners are no more, God will once again have a universe where His Word will reign supreme and will be followed without hesitation or reservation. May God hasten that day according to His Will.
M.A.
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Amen, Brother Crawford. :)
Just as Paul said in Romans 7:10 "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death." When the knowledge of the depth of the law came home to his mind, he saw he was under the condemnation of the broken law. He had no Saviour then to deliver him from the guilt or the power of sin. The first step in being converted is to see our need of help. We must see we are under the condemnation of the broken law. Many today do not see themselves condemned by having broken the law. Before we have need of a physician we must see ourselves sick.
Richard
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Romans 8:3,4. "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
This text is simple and easy to understand if we do not strive against it. If we desire to support a false gospel, then we must change what it says, but if we will allow the truth into our hearts we shall see the gospel of Jesus Christ. These verses support our understading of Romans 7.
The law of God does not save, it condemns all who break it. BUT, not all need to be under it's condemnation. Those who walk after the Spirit of God, not after their flesh, will not be under condemnation. Those who break the law of God, walking according to the flesh, will be under condemnation of the broken law.
"God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh..." Jesus took upon Himself the nature of fallen man. "...and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh." Jesus put to death sin while living in the likeness of "sinful flesh". He showed that we can overcome sin while living in sinful flesh. Through the power of the Holy Spirit living in us we may have power to overcome sin. This is spoken of as "walking after the Spirit."
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Romans 8:5
I will not comment on this verse. The Holy Spirit will show all that it needs no interpretation. It is in plain English.
"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit."
It is important to put this verse with the verses we have been studying and see that it supports what has been said up to this point. We are one or the other, but not both. Verse six will give further support to this understanding. :)
Richard
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Brother Richard.
It has been a long time ago since my last post here, it’s only because I have lost some data’s from my PC because of virus, and my favorites was also damaged.
I want to comment on Romans 8:1.
I think KJV translate it wrong, it should have been :” There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are “in Christ Jesus.” (see other translation)
By adding “who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit” a contradiction will arise, which is that our walking after the Spirit which saved us, our life style which saved us. IOW we are saved by our works.
Compare with this!
Now we know that what things so ever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God (Why? Because all are under sin, no one is righteous…...there is none that doeth good, no, not one - Romans 3:9-12). There fore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight; for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested………even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe; for there is no difference; For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God; being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is “in Christ Jesus.” (Romans 3:19-24).
“In Christ” a believer have his freedom, freedom of sin and it condemnations. In Christ a believer have his justification and redemption, not in ‘walking after the Spirit.”
In His love
James S.
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There is a repetition in Romans 8:3,4, but here is talking about something else. It is a truth that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in a believer who walks not after the flesh but after the Spirit. Of his being “in Christ” by faith a believer will be led to a life which walks after the Spirit and bear fruits of the Spirit which no law is against it (Galatians 5:22,23). The Spirit in him will harmonize his heart with the law of God, purified his soul as long as he stands right “in Christ”. By choosing the way of the flesh, a believer steps out from “in Christ” as he walks not in “the way, the truth and the life” which is Christ Jesus but in the way of the flesh which is in his own lust, a life for self instead of living for God (II Corinthians 5:15).Thus, a believer can not boast that because of his works to “walk after the Spirit,” he is righteous, justified and saved. But it is all because of faith.
In His love
James S.
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Brother James, it is good to have you back with us. Sorry to hear of your computer troubles. I was thinking of you yesterday. We came upon an automobile accident and being the first on the scene I gave comfort to the young lady who was injured. She was Indonesian. The Lord spared her life and she called today to thank us for the help and the copy of The Desire of Ages I gave her.
Brother James, the "evangelical" gospel has one saved in their sins and their "new" bibles reflect their theology. The King James version text in Romans 8:1 is in harmony not only with Romans 8:3 and 4, but with the whole Bible in this meaning. I chose the verses in context so that none could take them out of context as you are attempting to do. If you read the whole commentary I have given, you will see a consistency that refutes the "evangelical" gospel of being saved while sinning.
You do not have the liberty to remove the context of Romans 8:1 from 8:3,4. They are speaking of the very same thing. Paul has been on the same subject from the beginning and clearly there is no change between verse 1 and 4. Let us continue to read and we find further support for the gospel of grace giving power to keep the law of God (the fruits of the Spirit).
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Verse 5 supports Romans 8:1. Those that abide in Christ have His Spirit within and they walk after the Spirit for they are surrendered to Him. It is not salvation by works, but rather the fruit of the relationship with Christ. Verse 6 expresses the very same principle that Paul is trying to get across. If we have the mind of Christ, we have life. If we have a carnal mind, walking in the flesh, we have the condemnation of the broken law and thus death. "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." This whole discussion is indicating that we (Christians) have found that through Christ we can overcome sin; we can escape the "captivity to the law of sin" which is in our members. Praise God that through Christ we can "walk in the light as He is in the light." This is not salvation by works, but works by salvation. "I can do all things through Christ who strengtheneth me." Amen. It is Christ, not I. No salvation by works. It is salvation by grace, the grace of Jesus Christ. This great love of God for us while we are yet sinners, if allowed into the heart will transform the nature. We become partakers of the divine nature. The Holy Spirit is revealed in the life of the Christian. These good works are the fruit of Christ in the life.
Let me add another important point that none should overlook. Even with the good works that Christ works in the life of the true believer, salvation is not possible. The wages of one sin, is death. All have sinned. The only way any man can be saved is by the great suffering and death of our Saviour. Period. There is no way that one can atone for their own sins or the sins of another. Only God could do this and He did so willingly. Let not one accusation be made that what has been said in this thread has any measure of salvation by works. It is not so, not in the least.
One last comment on this subject. The good works that are seen in the life of the true believer is there only as one abides in Christ, for it is Christ that is doing the work. The moment one looks away from Jesus, self takes over. The motive becomes selfish without a living connection to Christ. Without the Spirit of Christ in the heart, man is not in a "saved" condition. His works are full of selfishness.
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Having been personally challenged to come to grips with the teaching here in Romans 7:5-8:14, the following is the first results of studying this portion. What I have done is reviewed all the postings of members here,copied the thread to my word document for working on, then just eliminated all the non-essential as well as the name of the person writing so as not to be influenced by my relationship to the writer when it comes to looking for understanding truth.
The text I have read in two German translations, four English and the commentaries of others to work this text through.Romans, 7:5-8:14
Important wording within the members postings:
Victory
Filled with the Holy Spirit
Surrender of the will
We were lost
Acts of sin
The sin of ignorance
Would be christian
Worldy person
Carnal person
Broken law ( I am of the viewpoint that the law of God in it’s substance can never be broken by man. I prefer the expression of transgression against law of God, or against the word of God./Joan)
Delivered from the law
Held dead by the law
Condemnation of the law
Spirit of the law
Conviction of the law
(Asterix is before a member’s posting I am quoting here which relates to the verse given. Then comes my comment)
*In context of these verses and clearly understand that Paul was expressing the victory one obtains when filled with the Holy Spirit and the torment one feels when conviction of the law comes home to the heart, by the Holy Spirit, but no surrender of the will is made.
Romans 7:5.
"For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death."
*Paul is talking about when we were lost without a Saviour. He says that the acts of sin, which were revealed by the law of God, did work through our flesh to bring us under the condemnation of broken law.
*Bible Studies on the Book of Romans "by E.J.Waggoner.
"What is the difference between the would-be Christian, who knows the law, but does not keep it, and the worlding who does not keep the law, and does not acknowledge that it is good?
Simply this: We are unwilling slaves, and they are willing slaves. We are all the time distracted and sorrowful, and getting nothing out of life at all, while the worlding does not worry himself in the least." p.54
*A knowledge of the law does not bring peace, but condemnation. The law has no power to save.
#Joan’s comment....
Paul writing here refering to his past, as well as our past, as we were in the fleshly passions of sin. There was a time of our life as corrupt propensities or carnal inclinations motivated our outlook and reflected in our decisions we carried out. The holy law around me did not create the evil I did against the law. All the evil I was doing was fruit of the dominion of death I live in.
#Joan’s question 1...
Is it an oxymoron to say 'so and so' is a carnal christian ? Paul spoke about carnal christians to the Corinth church.
(will post the next part tomorrow)
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Joan
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Romans 7:6 "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."
*Now, after we receive Jesus Christ as our Saviour, we are delivered from the bondage of the law, delivered from the condemnation of the law; that, now having the law of love written upon our hearts we follow the spirit of the law, not just the letter while disobeying it's Spirit.
*On judgment day none will be condemned because the innocently believed a lie or unknowingly cherished error, but because they did not avail themselves of the opportunity to know truth. It is not a matter of eternal life, for that requires the new birth. It is the torture of known guilt that eats away at the soul. This is more painful to those that have the law and break it than to those who have not known the law and break it.Willful ignorance is known to be such and with it comes the guilt.
The Great Controversy -PG- 313
“At the time of Christ's first advent the priests and scribes of the Holy City, to whom were entrusted the oracles of God, might have discerned the signs of the times and proclaimed the coming of the Promised One. Their ignorance was the result of sinful neglect.”
Advent Review and Sabbath Herald -DT- 04-25-93 - Accountability for Light -PR- 10
“It is plainly stated in the Scriptures that if the whole congregation sin through ignorance, the priests shall make an atonement for the sins when they are made apparent, and the sin of ignorance shall be forgiven. The work of Jesus is to forgive the sins of the past, but if light comes from heaven to the church, and men refuse the light because its acceptance involves a cross, then they stand guilty before God; for they have made it manifest that they love the world more than they love Christ and the truth.”
*Those who have an opportunity to hear the truth, and yet take no pains to hear or understand it, thinking that if they do not hear, they will not be accountable, will be judged guilty before God the same as if they had heard and rejected. There will be no excuse for those who choose to go in error when they might understand what is truth. In his sufferings and death Jesus has made atonement for all sins of ignorance, but there is no provision made for wilful blindness. Those who have hid their eyes from the truth lest they should be convinced, must exercise repentance toward God for the transgression of his law, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ, that their sins of ignorance in the transgression of the Sabbath may be forgiven."
Joan's comment :
Rom 7:6. The consequences of the gospel is implied here as giving the effects of fulfilling the law with a new spirit instead of living to the outward fulfilling of the letter of the law. The law produces distress when I or anyone else experiences it as a mirror of our stand before God. The gospel produces peace when it is appropriated to our hearts. We are freed from the duty of keeping it in a form of self-justification deeds. It means that we Christians are freed from paying ourselves the condemnation requirement of the law but we're not freed from it as a rule of duty.
Though alive physically I was spiritually dead in the eyes of Christ before His Spirit led me to conversion.I serve God now in a newness of spirit of willing love.
Before it was a matter of doing externals as a 'must'. The gospel now working out in me is that of the spirit and the heart, rather than before that of form and ceremony. Such 'law keeping' did not give me the efficacy and power for renewing my heart. Let alone cleansing me of any guilt before God. I before rested in the form of religion, hoping in vain it might produce some heavenly effects, but my spirit denied the power in it. Now my love for God motivates me to fulfill the laws requirement as He by His grace equipts me to accomplish such.
^^^^
Joan
^^^^
(more to come)
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Joan~
quote
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*In context of these verses and clearly understand that Paul was expressing the victory one obtains when filled with the Holy Spirit and the torment one feels when conviction of the law comes home to the heart, by the Holy Spirit, but no surrender of the will is made.
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That has to be one of the best short explanations of these texts I've seen. :)
quote
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#Joan’s question 1...
Is it an oxymoron to say 'so and so' is a carnal christian ? Paul spoke about carnal christians to the Corinth church.
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I think in the truest sense of the word Christian, it probably is an oxymoron. But since the world uses the term 'Christian' to describe a group of people who profess to believe certain things, I think you could use that term. :)
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Maranatha!:)
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Amen, dear sisters, amen. :)
The church was given that we might come into unity of doctrine. It is working! :)
Richard
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Whew !!
Richard seems happy...
Wendy seems happy...
Whew !You all don't know how worried I get when approaching a posting where I have to explain my theological view and it comes out looking ever so theosophical. Knowing that you all are knowing that I haven't had a twig of SDA education from the proper channels, it is a bit of tension to share how I see the kingdom guidelines and laws what with my lack of having read hardly any SOP at all. But knowing my heart has been formed by the Spirit of God over the years of bible reading it shouldn't cause me to be too far off beam. Just please bear with me in the odd sentence structure. My mind is so locked into German semantic that forming an American thought process, with proper word sequence, in an American sounding sentence is a great struggle for me.
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Joan
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quote :
*In context of these verses and clearly understand that Paul was expressing the victory one obtains when filled with the Holy Spirit and the torment one feels when conviction of the law comes home to the heart, by the Holy Spirit, but no surrender of the will is made.Yes, Wendy, I do agree with you that as Richard put this words together he had the gist of the two chapters in a nutshell.
Joan
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Romans 7:7
"What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."*Shall we say the law is wrong? God forbid!! I would not have known I was sinning and lost and condemned if it was not for the law: I would not have known I was lusting if I did not know the law that says, thou shalt not covet.
Acts 17:30 "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men (mankind) everywhere to repent."
*This is an amazing quotation, for "perhaps at one time, ignorance was an excuse" Not any more! In fact, if opportunity presents itself, and people do not take advantage of the opportunity, they are held responsible. They will be guilty.
Joan's comment :
In effect, the evil done is in man and not to be found in the Law which is inherently good and pure. It came to show me how sin is already in me at work and made me conscious of my wrong doings as beings deeds I will have to account to God for.
The fault of my inclinations to sin, or excitement at wanting to sin, lies not in the foundation of the law but in my own soul members. The desires to sin lay with me but the knowledge that those desires are wrong and forbidden by God could only the law teach me. The Spirit of God moves upon us in leading us to look at, or in, the law of God like as into a mirror to see our wrongness and then the conscience tell us of our wrongness.
If I keep on ignoring those moments of the H.Spirit convicting me, I will sear my conscience over a time that possibly causes the working of the H.Spirit to stop convicting me forever. I have then sinned against the H.Spirit.
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Joan
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Amen. The law reveals God's character and our condemnation. The Holy Spirit is needed to open our minds to these truths. Jesus calls to us. "Come unto Me all ye that labour and I will give you rest. "As we learn of Jesus and His great love, we allow our hearts to go out fully to Him in sorrow for our sins and what they have done to Him and others. We see ourselves as we really are, naked, blind, and in great need of a Saviour. It is a gift, repentance. A gift that cost an infinite price.
It is a wonderful fact that Jesus can change us from the inside out. He will give us new hearts that will obey all that we know to do. Obedience is the outworking of the Spirit within. All who refuse to obey, cannot obey, for in and of ourselves we have no power to do good. We must allow Jesus control of our lives. Such a sad thing to realize that so many misunderstand and believe a profession of faith is enough. It has never been and never will be. We must make a full surrender to Jesus, then we will be filled with love to God and love to man. :) Jesus has promised us this experience. "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."
Let us obtain this precious gift today!
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7:8 "But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead."
RSV Romans 7:8 "But sin, finding opportunity in the commandment, wrought in me all kinds of covetousness. Apart from the law sin lies dead".
*Sin (transgression of the law), now that the law is known, revealed all manner of evil in me. Before I knew the law, I did not know sin. Joan's comment :
It is still not certain to me if sin is an entity apart from human existance or a word personifying the condition of human mind's corrupt passions, or inclinations, against the law of God. I figure that the soul under legal restraints of being constantly convicted by the purity of the Laws demands, gets to building up steam over the course of time. It might burst out in real-time rebellion in a furious way by doing really bad actions and using the tongue really wrongly. There are lots of legally raised SDA's around showing rebellion, resistance and downright ornery obstinancy.
Joan's Questions :
-Could it be true that lust in me or you is not any type of independent physical subsistence ?
-Could it be that if I am being 'burnt' up with raging ambition that the corrupt ambition is not a separate entity to me as my ego but that my mind is the source of ambition, or envy or dirty lust ?
-Could it be that the demons don't put 'sin' in me but that they play with my propensities and I decide to 'sin' according to the mindset I have ?
-Could it be that 'sin' is just the 'fruit' or result of acting out my wrong mindset? Or heart condition?
-Could it be that the 'temptation' (in itself not a sin of itself), is just the catalysis to excite the- dormant-lying-potential to bring forth sin which harbors in the heart and mind of me ?
-Could it be the best in teaching is to tell others to avoid 'temptation'?
-Could it be that the law of God is there for us as an restraint in a positive way to avoid temptation?
-Now, is the Law a 'detector' that reveals the condition of my innermost being or a restraint-help that cautions me not to indulge in a certain behavor ?
~~~
Joan
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[This message has been edited by Richard Myers (edited 02-19-2001).]
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Sister Joan asks: "Now, is the Law a 'dector' that reveals the condition of my innermost being or a restraint-help that cautions me not to indulge in a certain behavor?"
The law is the school-master that leads us to Jesus. The law is what condemns us. Jesus is who saves us. The law has no power to save. It is the standard that shows that we are indeed in need of help. So, I say that the important aspect in our discussion in Romans 7 and 8 is part A to your question. :)
Richard
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7:9 "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died."
*I did not know I was under condemnation (death sentence) without a knowledge of the depth of the law: but when I found out about the depth of the law, that it reaches to the intents of the heart, then I became guilty and saw myself spiritually dead (the law slayed me).
Joan's comment :
This verse is one of those enigmatical oddities coming out of Paul that makes reading his letters ever so challenging. It's quite similar to those Russian Babushka's woodcrafted pieces, with the colorful lack-painted scarf covered grandmother, where you open the head and pull out the same wooden figure in a fraction of a millimeter smaller. You open the head of that and out comes the replica in still a fraction of a millimeter smaller. You do it again, and again and again until the table is full with about nine of them. The last has the figure of a small baby in it.
Paul has this technique in presenting God's truths, IMO. One thinks by looking at first glance that one readily understands what the issue is, but it's is more important to take the time to peel back and get down to the core of the substance.
This sentence is not based on the greek-based logic of today's way of thinking. Paul was here using his ancestral jewish mindset of syllogism. I am going to risk saying that he was visualizing his state before conversion. His sense of being 'alive' may have to do with the haughty sense of strength sucessful persons feel when being a 'self-made man' and having a self-righteous outlook on life. Such people have a kind of peace that gives them security. It of course self-delusionary. There is no conviction of having done anything wrong. The so-called socially acceptable good works in this person's life has built up his self-esteem.
Paul was one of these self-confident sinners. Externally conformed rightly to society and without having applied the law of Moses with it's power to his personal set of values. Paul was saying, in retrospect, he was outside the law because he subscribed to his own self-made law of behavior and ethics. Then the moment came as the commandments of God came to him in spiritual convicting ways. The Spirit of the law touched him. His proud, impetuos ways were constrained with the convicting work of the Holy Spirit.
This expression "..and sin revived" is a hard expression for me to identify with. The opposite would mean sin laid dormant in Paul. That I can't figure with. I take it that the Apostle's recognition or apprehension of the enormity of sin in his life became alive.
Joan's questions :
Then comes that mysterious portion of Paul's text saying "..and I died." Could this mean that he saw himself at that moment as a spiritual dead man walking? Could it mean he caught the sight of deserving eternal death ? Could it mean that all his efforts of obtaining eternal life by obedience to the law of good deeds and correctly adhering to the counsels of the law in actions, did not at all justify him before God as he had hoped ? Yes, I think so.
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Joan
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7:10 "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death."
RSV Romans 7:10 the very commandment which promised life proved to be death to me.
*And the commandments which are Holy and just, and given for our good, I found to cause my spiritual death (under the condemnation of the broken law. Poor Saul, he is really confused. He was brought under condemnation by the law of God and knows not how to get out from under the death sentence. He, like most other Pharisees, prided themselves in keeping the law, so it was quite a shock to him to find himself a law breaker. The Holy Spirit began to convince him of his sins after he participated in the stoning of Stephen.Joan's comments
Yes, indeed it must have given Paul a great blow to stagger him as he realized in shock that he himself was a lawbreaker as you mentioned above. Similar to the experience of discovering one's chosen beloved, of whom one is convinced is the right one for receiving a lifetime of bliss and enouragement, turns out to be the source of producing the most awful fights and ugly disappointments after the marriage starts.
Life should be made of peace and happiness. The law was intended to produce this. Leviticus states a few time that if we keep the law then none of the deseases will touch us and implies that the law is good in a 'protecting us from evil' sense.
When pride, lust for autonomous rule, obstinate self-will and stubborness in resisting right teaching causes one to rebel against the requirements of the law, sin and crime result. This is the inherent propensities within us. The law does not allow or give room for such character tendencies. Such is the case in persons when guilt and condemnation occurs. It reflects back on the law as being the source of death for that one. It shows the right reason why death is the wages for sin.
Adam lost his immortal life because of disobedience to the law. We, the progeny, are under the curse of death as soon as we are born. No one has the ability to fulfill the requirement of keep the law in perfection when he has not received the free gift of God of a new created heart. When that miracle takes place the power is given to live in perfect obedience like Jesus did.
Before the proper new creature in Christ conversion takes place, unconsciously we find ourselves in the condition of death which brings forth fruits of sinning. The condition gave us no direction to show the way of obtaining sinfree living along with living eternally. Looking into the law of life I see now only condemnation because of not measuring up to the standard. There is no overlooking, and there is no excuse for how I am before I get the new heart of love to God from the Holy Spirit.
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Joan
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Amen, Sister Joan. This is what is being taught throughout the Bible, but most especially here in Romans 7. Now, when we read 7:24 it makes perfectly good sense. "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Saul had no idea WHO could help him. He thought there was only one God, the Father. Jesus was an imposter. So, the Lamb of God could not take away his sins.
As we read the rest of the writings of Paul we don't get this attitude at all. He tells us quite pointedly who will take our sins away. We can do all things through Christ Jesus! :) Saul met Jesus and found a Saviour that delivered him from sin. He became a "new creature" in Christ Jesus! This we may do also, each day! :) By beholding Jesus, we shall become like Him. By learning of His righteousness, we may become partakers of His nature, of His character. "The goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance." A thoughtful hour a day contemplating the life of Christ especially the closing scenes will be a source of life saving grace to our souls. Let us behold our God!
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7:11 "For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me."
RSV Romans 7:11 "For sin, finding opportunity in the commandment, deceived me and by it killed me."
*For breaking the commandments that I then had knowledge of, I came under condemnation. I knew I was walking after the flesh.Joan's comment :
Looking at this verse crossed-eyed one could almost come to the heresy of saying that the law of God seduces me to sin. Yikers ! What a horrible thought. I do believe that an passive reflective thought is used here and not a active cause and result. The main actor in this sentence is 'sin'.
In word analysis of Strong's I see that 'sin' is : to be without a share in; to miss the mark; to err, be mistaken; to miss or wander from the path of uprightness nad honour; to do or go wrong; to wander from the law of God; to violate God's law; and an offence against the divine law in thought or in act. If sin is then that which is 'against the law of God' then it is an absolute impossibility for the law to produce sin or be a co-worker with it.
The rebellious propensities that are already in the human heart is excited when seeing the forbidden. Now, don't we kids know that :) These stimulated, highlighted tendencies lead astray by deceiving one, or urging one, to do the bad act. Sinning has to do with one's passions mixed with delusions. The delusion comes when the thoughts entertain an implied pleasure behind the forbidden verbot expression of the law. The evil imaginations of the person lets himself get enticed or seduced by his own thoughts and passions. The law is good, just and righteous. It does not wound but sin deceives us and thus we are slain. The law is not the cause of sin or of death. It verifies what is already there. Sin is personified as the tempter here in this verse.
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Joan
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7:12 "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good."
*I see the law is good.Joan's comment :
There is nothing more I can add to this. The wording in the verse is self-explanatory.
7:13 "Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful."
*Was the good law causing me to die? God forbid!!! The commandments showed me I was under condemnation and then I could see the great evil of breaking the commandments.
Joan's comments .
This verse 13 is the substance or justification of my words for verse 11 comments. I couldn't say anything new to what I fully agree already in Richard's above wording.
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Joan
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[This message has been edited by Joan Rügemer (edited 02-24-2001).]
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7:14 "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin."
*We know the Ten Commandments are of God, but I am unholy, and cannot help but sin. I am a slave to sin and cannot help myself. I cannot stop sinning. I have no good fruit in my life. I manifest the works of the flesh for I am carnal, of the flesh.
Joan's comments :
Paul used the past tense form of telling in verse 7 but in this verse he is using the present tense of the infinative 'to be' here which is 'I am'. Verses 7-13 show the effects of the law on the mind of an degenerate/unregenerate man. The verses 14 and onward show the effects of the man after conversion but not filled with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The man is renewed in his state of mind, cleansed and made at peace with God but hasn't grasped what it means to live the Spirit led life. He is deciding for himself to fulfill the law of God in the efforts of his own flesh. So is how I see these verses.
The operating system of God's law is a supernatural non-carnal predominance. It moves from the impulse of the character of God which is good, just, love, light without darkness. In contrast to the law's operating system, 'my' system is carnal...that means my impulses are fleshly, sensuous, heeding passions of the body, going after the appetites of the body, worldly in orientation and secular in philosophy. Who I am is dictated by earthly longings to get fulfilled with material substances. It is not naturally given to understand ethereal or spiritual happenings in a viewpoint as God sees them. Carnal cravings or wishes drive me to seek sensual satisfaction. The appetite of my senses drive me to make provision before the wish to honor God's law.
Joan's questions :
As I was among the 'other sheep' as member of other denominations, the controversy raged whether this verse and the following were written to show Paul's state before his commitment to Jesus or if he was struggling in the carnal problem as he was serving the Lord.
Are these verses part of men and women under the gospel or in the gospel life but not having constant victory over the carnal nature like it appears in young christians to be the case, or is Paul stating a condition of his soul life before he was baptised with he power of the Holy Spirit with the gifts he became for evangelism ?
Santification is not a one day experience. We grow into the habit of acting like Christ. We fall into old ways but quickly stand up and go on again. I see as of yet no indication in these verses that Paul lost his struggle with his carnal nature after becoming an Evangelist. Keeping of the law does not sanctify a person. The Lord God santifies the person to keep the law is my conviction. The state of santification is a schooling.
A baptised born-again new-creature-in-Christ genuine Christian goes through the state of conflict that Paul is discribing here. I know of instant forgiveness from Jesus and instant cleansing and instant imputing Christ's righteousness to a real believer but I know of no instant character perfection where the adult has never fallen by Satan' temptation since his conversion. They have prayed for forgiveness and got up to walk the walk on the narrow road again. But if you know one who is free from faults, making mistakes, making wrong judgements, free from falling to any temption and is under 50 years of age, would you please write me an email and give me the guy's name ?
Habits or propensities travel with us when we forsake Babylon to live the Christian life in the kingdom of God. Our period of santification is there to help us get rid of the sin habits. Now we are sealed with the Spirit and when we are filled with the Spirit we overcome in the Spirit. The bent of our minds after conversion is to love and serve God but the prevailing strength of the sin habit is like being like as a slave to sin. The difference now we are free from the yoke but must use another operating system to be overcomers. That's why Paul speaks of himself being sold under sin as the present state he was in as a Apostle in this verse. Paul had been made free by Christ but the effects of his past sinnings is acting still as an condition reflex repeat even though he was actually legally free in the eyes of God from the clutches of the Devil. Jesus had paid the price for him already.
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Joan
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Sister Joan, nowhere in the writings of Paul will you find him saying he is carnal. He says the opposite. This verse cannot be taken out of context. We must read it with the verses that preceed it and follow it. He is describing his experience when he found himself dead in treaspasses and sins. He did not know that Jesus Christ was the Messiah when in this carnal state.
This does not mean that he never fell after being converted. We do not believe in once saved always saved, so this is not an issue. Here Paul is speaking of what Saul went through when he was a Pharisee of Pharisees and found out he was under condemnation.
If this is not the case, then can you point to a testimony of Saul's conversion someplace else in the Bible? :) Not the simple explanation of his experience on the road to Damascuss, but an explanation of the process.
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Most certainly I know- that you know- that I know- that Apostle Paul's condition was as a spiritual man when he wrote the whole epistle of Romans. That we all agree on. That is not at issue. The verses 14-25 are the context of text now in issue. They are written in the present tense. The semantics tell us that. We know that the controversy can not be solved when I give my view of these verses from your view just to please you. I respect you and your level in santification very much. But I believe you know I am not a shoe-licker. I am responsible to be honest with what I find within my thinking or heart's values at the given moment. I don't play a false piety game to be accepted by the crowd. I share how I believe here to get it corrected if it is wrong.
I share to give you all a chance to get to know who I am in my thinking. The challenge came to search that list of texts you gave me to find the bible support for teaching what I heard from you about loosing our justification when we as baptised believers give in to doing one sin. And further...only when we confess the sin and ask forgiveness do we get justified again and are then in the position to say at that moment we are saved. I have no right to enter heaven with one sin unforgiven in my soul. Only justified ones are redeemed and only redeemed ones will be in the resurrection of the righteous, so I understand. The indication is that with one sin we have broken the whole law and can not be raised in the ressurection of the righteous dead. I need to understand this very carefully because of not wanting to loose my salvation status. I am in the process of examining what is in me. This forum helps me weigh up what I believe and why I believe it.
I want to also say that my relationship with Jesus is strained or distant because of my foibles, mistakes, failings or missing the mark of being perfect in loving others. But my name is not wiped out of the book of life because I goof up in human relationships.My overall set of mind is to do the will of God. Being saved means having my name in the Book of Life. It got there as I accepted and confesssed Jesus is my Saviour. My understanding of the atonement came years later but my condition of being forgiven, cleansed, saved was established and my baptism was the testimony of my condition. Now I am among SDA's who do not have in the present tense the right to thankfully proclaim they have been saved. I find that odd. I would never say that the condition of salvation I have today will remain so I can say I will still have the status of my name on the book of life in a week or a month or a year. I am as capable of the next for denying Jesus (God please forbid this) but know that when I morning for morning, day for day, let His Word wash me, regenerate me and I listen to do the bidding for the day that He gives me to do, I am saved.
JRüg
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Brethern,
You know I am not in my spririt to teach men. I am not allowed that position. I don't even want it. I am embarassed or hesitant to even point to a mistake or error that a man makes. So I will speak generaly and in my heart most certainly gently. At present I see verses 14-25 as expression of Paul describing himself in the condition that plagues all humans namely the carnal being. We as spiritual believer-saints, alive in Christ, have died to the carnal nature and it's laws. We still live in Satan's kingdom but now have the kingdom of God within us. The enemy is doing all sorts of things through stimulation of our senses to get the carnal nature alive and active. Within the community of the saints each where he lives and moves, we all have seen how the carnal nature has been often revived in many spritual saints to cause wrong decisions leading to sin or mistakes or failings or missing the mark or ...however you might want to put it. The reason for this failing to remain spiritual is, as I see it, do to the struggle as verses 14-25 are stating.
Paul started out by saying 'I am carnal' in verse 14. May I illustrate how I see that ? Joan was born of parents who both were born in Brooklyn. Does that make Joan now an Brooklynese ? No- is the answer. Joan was born in Staten Island N.Y. Does that make Joan a New Yorker ? Yes because she was exposed to the public school system up till the age of 10.But she is also an Staten Islander. Joan lived 10 years in Arizona. Does that make her an Arizonian ? No-though she went through the school system her heart didn't identify with the elements that make for Arizonians. She didn't take on and wasn't raised in the mentality of Arizonians. Joan has an American Passport. Does that make Joan an American ? Yes, because of the enviromental training and because of legal status. Joan lives in Germany for 28 years now. Does that make her a German ? Neither yes or no can fit this answer. I will use the German word of 'Jein'. It is a combination of ja and nein. The combination answer is 'Ja' because Joan thinks more like a German than American, she speaks more German than American daily, she adapts to German custom and laws. 'Nein' because she will always have her typical American traits, always be seen as American by the natives here, always be exposed as non-german because of her light accent and grammer small mistakes that just doesn't go away.
Hypothetically Joan gives up her American citizenship and hands in her passport. She then takes on the German oath of citizenship and becomes an German passport. Does that make her a German ? Jein ! She has legal claim through blood to say she is German because of both of her Grandparents being born and raised in the north of Germany, she then also has legal claims to say she is German because of the Passport. But she doesn't make claim to be German. Why ? Because of the struggle of mind and soul and spirit which hasn't settled down to knowing which identity is completely true. The americanism's will stay in her until she dies. The German part of her mental spiritual state is strong because it is presently very predominant due to enviromental influences.
A great number of Germans harbored resentments and bigotry against the German Jews among which was the thinking they not having the right to call themselves Germans. Which the german Jews did. What was the identity of German Jews 60-80 years ago? They were born in Germany, spoke accent-free german, had german passports, had parents born in Germany who had German passports who came out of two other generations of German born and raised German Jewish forefathers. Did they have the right to call themselves german as those of African negro race from generations being born in American have been given the right to call themselves american ? Or are there Americans of European stock in America who still harbor hidden bigotry that blacks have no right to be labeled 'American'?
What I am aiming at to say in comparision is that the Negroess of black americans will stay with them until they die; that the Jewishness of German Jews will stay with them till death... like the carnal heritage of us humans will be in the substance of who we are until we die. We who have become filled with the Holy Spirit and leading a spiritual life are not anymore in the condition of carnalness. Old things have passed aways and all things have become new. Still the substance of carnality is part of our humanity to live with through the santification period until the coming of our our Lord in glory. We decide daily if we allow the Spirituality given by the presence of the H.Spirit in us, freedom to let the nature and character of Christ motivate us in daily decisions. There are times when the carnal nature breaks out and we make decisions on passion, anger, resentments, and what ever evil that may come out of our hearts. Knowing this I can accept wrongs done me and forgive those spiritual christians because I know where the worm is coming out of, and other spiritual christians can more readily forgive me when I goof off in wrong behavior when they understand that my carnal nature hasn't been eradicated.
JR.
[This message has been edited by Joan Rügemer (edited 03-12-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Joan Rügemer (edited 03-12-2001).]
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I believe these verses 14-25 as outward expression of Paul's state of mind 'subsequent' to his conversion. He used the words 'I am carnal' in the present tense referring to the state of humanity he found within himself he could not excape from on his own power. After all he was filled with the inspiration of the Spirit of God to write the whole epistle to the Romans in one letter to the church at Rome so his being was already renewed with the power of the Spirit who had already given him the gifts of the Spirit needed to be an Apostle and Evangelist at the time of writing. Really, I have no theological theory to support. I say what I see here in my open bible and how I am impressed with the words as I read them.
The first context of verses Paul exhorted upon in Ro 7:5-13 was indeed about his former unconverted life. The period of time indication changes at verse 14 and onwards. Mind you, I am not clear if the santification comes only by keeping the law or not. I tend to think that we are made sanctified by God and He puts us in a schooling of sanctification where we keep the law by his power in us.
Actually I see verses 14 and onwards in the first person singular of Paul talking about himself but in accord with the experience of regenerated new Christians, like us, who have made a confession of faith in Jesus as Savior. Sinners wouldn't have this struggle because their conscience is seared and they don't care if they sin or not. We Christians have often expressed such feelings of struggle with temptation and disgust with out wanting to serve God in our hearts but the flesh is weak.
Paul was a renewed man. He wrote here telling us how he is exposed to temptations from his strong native appetites and passions. The old habits distressed him which showed kept showing up in him but he certainly wasn't wholly under their influence anymore. The Holy Spirit influence was now in him giving him new insight as to what sin really is. He struggled with the tendency of a natural inclination to indulge in that which is contrary to the law. This is the experience of my christian walk until I learned what the filling of the Spirit meant and began to practice living in the Spirit filled life. I still must be sober and watchful because the prowling Lion is out to gobble me up. And he can because my natural bent is more prevailing to carnal living than spiritual living. The threat of being sold to being a slave to Satan again is a real one. I can so fall that if I don't repent I loose my connection with Jesus for ever. That happens to Christians who dabble in little sins to often which lead to big sins which leds to slavery to sin again.
The more we live out the law of God in our daily lives the more we begin to see how spiritual, just and holy it is. To delight in the law of God, as Paul mentions he did in verse 22, gives evidence that he was converted, regenerated, born again and that the Spirit puts a love for the law of God in his heart. As Pharisee it was a religious act or like a business deal with God as he then forcefully outwardly gave the impression he was fullfilling the law of God. Now he says in these last verses of Ro 7 that he now hates evil. That could only come out of a man who had been convicted of sin by the H.Spirit like Paul had been already.
I never met a unregenerated person who had such a struggle with fleshly wishes and a spiritual life. Only regenerated, renewed Christians have this struggle. Paul had a fleshly problem of serving sin at times even while as an Evangelist called of God. He was authenticly a saved child of God. His serving sin was not voluntary but involuntary. The testimony of the spirit filled life is given in the next chapter. That was also his experience. He was not actively planning to sin as a christian. The wickedness just came out of him out of habit from his old nature. The old man, or old nature, is not eradicated and thus can be ignored or will never causes us problems. Then Satan wouldn't be a threat to us. We would be immune to his cunning. No, it is still on board but can be laid to rest when we live consistantly under the governing influence of the grace of God. When we walk in the Spirit we are capable of yielding spiritual obedience. When for some reason or other we as saints decide to walk in the flesh we are incapable to give God spiritual obedience. Instead we yield our members to the law of the flesh and sin when we go against the law of Love.
Santification in my opinion is a state of schooling where there are struggles of saints with a renewed sanctified soul who haven't attained perfection of habits in serving God in obedience.
The unregenerate doesn't give a poof about wether or not they are dead in tresspasses and sin, so Paul's insights were spoken from one who the Spirit was already working in for recognizing sin in his life. Paul was speaking in this context of verses 14-25 of knowing the will of God but not doing it, him seeing the holiness or good of the law but living in conflict to it's requirements. He is writing in these verses to a build up of the answer in Ro 8.
The more I think about it, the more I must be honest and confess that I've observed there are lots of us people around who have been illuminated by the H.Spirit to the point of actually experiencing conviction of sins in one's doings. We might even carry around a self-accusing conscience for having done something in service to the devil. Such ones also give honor that the law is right, just and good and delight to know God's ways but can't get that required holiness functioning in their lives. We are being overpowered with the love to favorite sins. I think of practicing SDA homo's, or drunks, or smokers, or those prone to temper tantrums wherein they sin against others.
In 1John 1 we are taught that we, believers of the kingdom, in declaring we have no sin deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. But if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. There is a struggle between grace and corruption in our members. This school of santification we saints are in, is there to let us stive against these sins and tendencies. God is expecting us to live a sin free overcoming life. Galation 5 teaches that the flesh lustesth against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh and these are contrary one to the other so that you cannot do the things that you would.
Paul breathed out the wish to attain a perfection in holiness. He testifies to pressing on to the goal which is his high calling in Christ but he never gave testimony of having attained it. Paul sees into himself, sees his carnal flesh and recognises that there is nothing good there. I can testify to the same. The new nature in him, in us, in me, is the receiver for the possibility of the power of God to work His grace so to live a sin free life. WE are totally dependant on Him for such a process. WE are still in the flesh but can be so led by the power of God to live spiritual lives free from sin.
In Romans 7:23 Paul had the spiritual insight to see the conflict of a believer having two govenments of laws to choose from within his members now that he has the law of the kingdom come into his heart. Yes, I believe Christ had set up His throne in the heart of Paul as he nevertheless spoke of the struggle to resist the pull of the flesh.
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Joan
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Paul saw that there was still a carnal mind in him which is at enmity to the law of God. But we all know that the love of God was shed abroad in his heart to love the law of God. Similarly the body of believers in Corinth were baptized believers who got messages from Paul who had to write to them like for babes in Christ who were still carnal and had not understood what it was to walk in the Spirit so as not to fulfill the carnal lusts. He got on to them for having envy and having strife causing division because of some declaring to be followers of Paul, and others not so keen on Paul becoming followers of Apollos, which is a lot like today those who exclusively are labeling themselves as White followers contra Folkenberg followers, or Venden followers or D.Batchler followers. Paul put the mirror up to them in Corinth and questioned : "are ye not carnal ? Back biting, slander, vengence or the like are carnal weapons.
We are in a warfare against powers of darkness in the invisible world and only through spiritual weapons can we be victorious in pulling down strong-holds belonging to the Devil and his gang. Galatian 5 spiritual weapons, Ephesian 6 as well mentions spiritual weapons.
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Joan
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We can’t understand Paul’s discussions of the law, if we use a new definition of it. To every Jew--including Paul--"the law" meant "The Torah" scroll, that is the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible.
To them, the decalog was given as an "epitome" (representative sample) of the law, not something separate. That's would explain why the Bible never mentions the term "ten commandments" after Deuteronomy. Not a single time. Not once. Never, never, never!
There were 613 commandments in the law. So how in the world did we ever get into the habit of assuming that references to the law meant the 10 commandments to the exclusion of the hundreds of other commandments?
Does anybody have an answer, please?
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Brother Harry, sorry to have missed your post. One of the difficulities with trying to keep up with many different forums. I thought I had read the last post in this forum.
Yes, I have an answer for you. The law is the law. It incorporates the principles of our being. The ten commandments are the simplification of the law. Just as the eight hang on the two great commandments, the whole body of law hangs upon the "ten". When Jesus says to "keep my commandments" He means all of them that we know AND that we should be eagerly expanding our knowlege of all of His commands. Notice in the great promise to us in Ezekiel 36:26 and 27 that more than the "Ten Commandments" is being expressed: "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."
The Jews, as a nation, in their blindness "kept the law", but they did not allow the truth to reach into their hearts so they could keep the whole law. Remember the expansion of the law as illustrated by Jesus when gave His sermon on the mount. Hopes this helps some. Can you agree? I would like to hear what others think also.
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Hi Richard--
What you say seems reasonable to me...up to a point. That point is this question I tried to express. Upon what basis do we ignore the other three categories of sabbaths, ritual circumcision, etc?
Where does the Bible tell us to obey some of the commandments and disregard the rest? And which to obey and which to disregard?
--Harry
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Of course, Brother Harry. We must not assume anything. We, as Seventh-day Adventists know and understand that the ceremonial law was to be as a teaching tool until the anti-type or shadow would meet the reality, Jesus Christ.
The ceremonial law is no longer part of the law to be kept, for it has been fulfilled. Can we agree? I would assume that you would like to move into some other areas? :)
Richard
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Paul was touching on some difficulties that Christians seem to constantly struggle with.
There is a struggle that wants to try to keep happening with God's law. In this struggle, the following quote makes a lot of sense to me:
"GCB.1895-03-05.032
The law claims from man entire obedience through the whole period of his life. Hence it is impossible for him by future obedience to atone for even one sin. And without the grace of Christ to renew the heart, we cannot render obedience to the law of God. Our hearts are by nature evil, and how, then, can they bring forth that which is good? "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." Job 14:4.
All that man can do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and sin. Therefore he who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law, is attempting an impossibility. True, man cannot be saved in disobedience, but his works should not be of himself.
Christ must work in him to will and to do of his own good pleasure. If man could save himself by his own works, he might have something in himself in which to rejoice. But it is only through the grace of Christ that we can receive power to perform a righteous act."
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"...We believe that through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, we shall be saved..." (Acts 15:11).
Your brother in Christ
David T. Battler
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I, too, wanted to comment earlier on the post dated 03-03-2001 but got sidetracked with other messages. Permit me to briefly offer at this time my reflections on that particular message.
The Seventh-day Adventist Church is one of the few churches I know where everyone who dares to pontificate on Bible topics oftentimes think they are "experts" of some kind or other where theological matters are concerned. Just about everybody today that has an opinion about anything Biblical is writing a book. Let me make it clear that there is nothing wrong with writing books. I believe there are spiritual benefits that can be derived from reading spirit-filled literature. But one must be VERY, VERY CAREFUL and make sure that whatever one reads unto salvation is based upon the Word of God AND NOT solely on the unsubstantiated theories and opinions of men and women.
Another major area where I believe the problem lies is: there are too many "chiefs" and not enough "indians" where spiritual instruction is concerned. There are too many people who are trying to teach and lead and not enough who are trying to listen and follow. Consequently what we have is a smorgasbord of religious ideas on practically every Bible topic imaginable that provide a "cafeteria style," take-your-pick kind of offering that is more often than not devoid of any real spiritual sustenance. How do we safely navigate through the theological maze of error and confusion that confronts us?
"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them" (Isa. 8:20).
Whatever men and women say in the myriad of religious books on the market MUST uplift Jesus Christ, the Light of the world, and the Word of God as the Source of salvation for all humankind. Otherwise, IT HAS NO REDEEMING VALUE! One must also beware of books and materials that quote the Bible from cover to cover but MISINTERPRET those same quotations by offering the personal opinions of these writers that are not supported by other Scripture, or the writings of Ellen G. White. Oftentimes Mrs. White's writings themselves are misquoted and misinterpreted by writers who try to make them say WHAT THEY WANT THEM TO SAY rather than letting them speak for themselves.
This is, I believe, one of the problems with regards to the question on commandments mentioned in the post dated 03-03-2001. We must study the Word of God and know what it says for ourselves. But, if we are to be saved, it must go beyond just studying and knowing. We must also be DOERS of the Word and not just hearers--those who have knowledge--only (Jas. 1:22). We must be PRACTIONERS of the Word and demonstrate it in our everyday living. If we are to acquire eternal life, we must make sure we have dotted every "i" and crossed every "t" where ordering our lives after the Example of Jesus Christ is concerned.
M.A.
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Hi Richard--
Having been an Adventist for three score and eight, I’m very familiar with the moral-law/ceremonial-law theory. But I’m unaware of any scriptural basis for it. The terms do not occur in the Bible, nor do I find such a division under any other terminology. I have learned that the medieval Catholic Church devised the idea, but I’ve never found their explanation. Their authority was such that they probably didn’t have to justify it. Luther imported it into Protestantism by default.
For example, why would the weekly sabbath be moral and the monthly sabbath be ceremonial? Simply asserting that we know something is no substitute for a plain declaration of Scripture establishing it. Where does the Bible say that part of the law was tutorial, while the rest (the decalog) was not?
That’s what I look for these days: clear, unambiguous scriptural statements. I continue to be amazed at how much Christian tradition has evolved without clear support. No wonder there is so much theological disagreement among us. :)
--Harry
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Hi Harry~
You are right that there are no terms such as ceremonial law-moral law. Those are terms that we've come up with in recent times to help us make it clear which kind of law we are talking about and there is a difference.
Maybe more descriptive words would be prophetic law - non-prophetic law. Jesus made the distinction in Matthew 5:18, "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.".
When we say ceremonial law we are talking about law that is prophetic (eg. slaying the lamb, keeping the seven year Sabbath etc). When we say moral law we are talking about the law that doesn't point forward to anything (isn't prophetic) and therefore can't be fulfilled or pass away (eg. thou shalt not kill, remember the 7th day Sabbath etc).
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WendyL ~ Maranatha! :)
[This message has been edited by Wendy (edited 04-20-2001).]
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Brother Harry, the implication of what you say is rather astounding. I gave you Biblical support for the distinction. The sacrificial system ended. I have no problem with you wanting to look at different aspects of what was part of the sacrificial system of teaching, but you must acknowlege that it does not take a command from God to know that there was a temple and it had services that were "shadows" of heavenly things and this is what we call "ceremonial".
This is a subject for the Sanctuary thread. Now, back to the law. Paul in Romans 7 is speaking of the moral law, for the ceremonial law was ended. But, it really makes no difference. He was speaking of his inability to obey what he knew to be right. He saw himself condemned by the broken law, which ever law you like.
Richard
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Hi Wendy--
I believe that it was Dr Bacchiocchi who pointed out that the moral law - ceremonial law division was the product of the medieval Catholic Church. But we don’t normally accept Catholic doctrines without a challenge. :)
Some Catholic ideas are valid, of course, because they are based on explicit scriptural statements. I haven’t been able to discover the texts that divide the law into two laws.
Don’t you believe that Jesus was referring to the entire law in the text you quoted?
--Harry
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Brother Harry, the "law" says to take our lamb to the temple, shall we do it? Do you blieve the law of God has ceased to be law for us?
Richard
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Hi Richard--
I'm intrigued by your question. Could you identify the text of the commandment to take the lamb to the temple?
--Harry
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Brother Harry, here is one such command: "And when the days of her purifying are fulfilled, for a son, or for a daughter, she shall bring a lamb of the first year for a burnt offering, and a young pigeon, or a turtledove, for a sin offering, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest:" Lev. 12:6
This is the law. Now are you saying we are to be doing this today? Or may we divide the law into ceremonial and moral?
Richard
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It is very interesting reading the thoughts of those who believe that when the Holy Spirit indwells a person, who stills has sinful flesh, that He can sin. There is a simple truth that is not understood in these cases. The truth is this; without Jesus in the heart we cannot help but sin. We are dependent upon Christ continually to resist sin. Now the converse is a simple truth also. Jesus does not sin. If we abide in Him and He in us, we shall not sin. We must loose our connection with Christ before we can sin.
Any interpretation of Romans 7 that does not fit the above is a false interpretation. Now, many will judge the Bible by their own experience. This is sad. We must take the Bible as it reads. The law is an agent in every true conversion. What does this mean? It means that before one can be converted he must see himself a sinner under the condemnation of the law. Then as he seeks to keep the law, he will find that it is impossible unless he has help. Most Christians find their first experience to be very difficult because they do not know of their need of Jesus in the heart CONTINUALLY. So, they attempt to keep the law by themselves which is an impossiblity. We must allow the grace of Christ into the heart before we can keep the law of God. When we allow our mind to wander away from Jesus, we are left without power to keep the law, we sin. Until we know Jesus as a Saviour, we will be doing the things we do not want to do and not doing the things we ought to do. It is true this can happen after one is converted, for many times we shall separate from Christ, BUT we ought to discover that Jesus is the key to victory over sin. This is to say that we no longer ask, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death."
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Looking again at the essence of the message in these texts we want to come into unity. Sister Joan said "The verses 14 and onward show the
effects of the man after conversion but not filled with the baptism of
the Holy Spirit. The man is renewed in his state of mind, cleansed and
made at peace with God but hasn't grasped what it means to live the
Spirit led life. He is deciding for himself to fulfill the law of God in the
efforts of his own flesh."If we have not His Spirit, we are none of His. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirt of God dwellin you. If Christ be in you, the body is dead...
Richard
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Brethren and Sister's...I'm not really sure which way to go with this topic. ???
There is a REAL SEPARATION between the MORAL and CEREMONIAL Law's...The MORAL law was written by the *finger of God*[Exodus 31:18]; and, the ceremonial law was written, in a book, by Moses [Deuteronomy 31:24-26]...
Brother Myers extension on this *law which is written in the heart*; or, the *heart change* which must occur as in *re-birth*; are right down *main-stream* christianity [including SDA] today...
However, in Romans, I think one need look at the audience to whom Paul was writing. As I understand it, he was speaking to a particular group of *Jews*; who, amoung other things, had challenged Paul to debate *the law*, and it's demands on newly converted *Gentiles* and *slaves* alike...The Jewish leadership were, in their usual dogmatic way, trying to say that in order for these *new Christians* to be rightly accepted; they [the gentilles in particular] must heed Jewish *tradition(s)* and be *circumcised*, etc.
What is most interesting to me when looking up some of this argument in the EGW Estate search; she actually makes reference to these ceremonial laws; sabbaths; and feasts...Her comments are that if one feels *compelled* to honor them in his/her's experience, than no one should make judgment in one way or another...
If I'm so off base that my addition to this thread is comical, I'll back-out completely, as there are several other area's in which I have participated and will continue to do so as long as the topics are open...
Your brother in Christ.
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Well lets get this here horse galloping again, eh?
(Sorry this is a looong one...better just print it out and be done with it! I don't want to waste anyone's time about where I see the Lord on this so, I'm gonna give the full gamut right off!)
Let the person who is seeking for victory over sin be as soundly convinced that no amount of effort, of intensive study of the Word of God, of church attendance, activity in missionary lines, devout prayers and the liberal giving of offerings, is going to cause the carnal mind to bring forth the fruits of the Spirit. This is not the way, for the "carnal mind . . . . Is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." it is as sure that this is so as it is true that the thorn bush is not subject to the law of producing apples neither indeed can be.
Therefore, any person who, while still retaining the carnal mind, is attempting to keep the law of God to bring forth the active fruits of the Spirit is attempting an absolute impossibility. Not until that carnal mind is dealt with so that its power is broken, can the person begin to keep the law of God. The axe must be laid at the root of the tree. There is no other way.
There are those in the religious world today who think that the solution to the problem is to do away with the law. A little careful thought will show that this cannot be. An ignorant man thought to do away with the heat problem by breaking the thermometer, but when he had done that it did not change the heat or lessen the problem. The problem was still there in the unchanged and unabated heat. What he had lost was an accurate means of knowing how hot it really was.
So likewise, if the law is taken away it will make no difference to the sin. It will still be there. What will have happened is that man will be without an accurate gauge by which he can know what the sin is.
In the earlier part of Romans seven this truth is well expressed in the illustration of the marriage. Here it is clearly shown that there is no need to change the law. It is perfect and in no need of change. What needs to be changed is the individual for there is the problem.
"Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man." Romans 7:1-3.
The situation here is one with which all are familiar as all understand the law of marriage. While the woman is legally married to her husband, the law will condemn as adultery any attempt which she might make to marry another man. But should the husband be dead, then the very same law which formerly condemned her marriage to another will now condone it. A change has taken place but it has not been in the law. It has been in the woman. She has changed from being a married woman to being a single woman.
This is equally true in the spiritual realm. In fact, Paul has not here launched into a dissertation on the marriage question, but has rather used the marriage law as an illustration of the spiritual marriage with Christ.
"Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to Him Who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God." Romans 7:4.
There is not the slightest hint in this verse of any change being made in the law, but there is a clear reference to a change being made. It is to be made in the individual. He must become dead so that he can be married to another, even Christ, for He is the One Who is raised from the dead.
The whole purpose of the work of Jesus Christ is to save from sin, as it is written, "Thou shalt call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins." Matthew 1:21.
To be saved from sin is to be saved from lawbreaking for sin is lawbreaking as it is written, "Sin is the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:4. Lawbreaking is disobedience. Therefore, to be saved from lawbreaking is to be saved into obedience.
It is clear, then, that neither the putting forth of the supreme effort of the will, nor the doing away of the law is the solution to the problem.
Having seen then what the solution is not, we turn to what the solution really is. The solution lies in the eradication of the old nature and its replacement with the new nature altogether. There is nothing more clearly taught in the Scriptures than this. Consider the clarity of this verse as a statement of it.
"And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God." Ezekiel 11:19, 20.
In language as plain as it can be, the Lord states that He will take the old sinful, stony heart out of their flesh and give them a new heart in its place. He does not say that he will give them a new heart along with the old. This is not the message of the verse. Note it carefully for it states that the old will be taken out of their flesh and a new spirit and a new heart will take the place of the old.
All this is done for a purpose. It is done to achieve certain results. It is done "that (for the intent or purpose) they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God."
How clearly we saw that in Romans seven the very reason as to why the intended servant of God could not do that which he desired to do was because he still had the old carnal mind in him ruling over him as a master. It has been emphasized that the presence of this power is the problem for this man. Now it is to be seen that the Lord knows that this is the problem and that the only solution to the problem is to remove the offender and replace it with a new heart altogether.
To return to Christ's illustration of the thorn bush, we find the same answer there. In the garden the thorn bush is standing green and flourishing but useless as a fruit-producer. It stands in the way, occupies good soil and tears the clothes of those who pass by. So the gardener has a problem. He wishes to have good fruit such as apples or oranges, but he has a thorn bush. He knows that the only solution is to tear the thorn bush from its place in the dust of the earth, and to replace it with a good tree. Then he knows that in due time he will obtain good fruit for the very simple reason that he now has a good tree.
So likewise, the man of Romans seven desires to bring forth the good works of the law in the form of the fruits of the Spirit, which are love, joy, peace, and so on. But he has an evil nature within which is the fountain, not of loving obedience, but of hatred, pride, jealousy and the like. His predicament is the same as that of the gardener with the thorn bush and the solution is the same. That evil nature must be uprooted from the human body made of the dust of the earth and replaced with a nature born from above. Only thus can he be a child of God and only thus can be brought forth the good fruits of the Spirit.
This truth is stated again and again in the Scriptures so that the repeated witnesses of it will leave no doubt in the mind of any as to the way of deliverance from sin's terrible power. "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:24.
God sent His Son into the world to condemn sin in the flesh. A very important distinction needs to be recognized here. The actions of sin can well be termed the sins of the flesh, while the indwelling power of the stony heart or the carnal mind, is the sin in the flesh. Now notice that Jesus did not come to do a superficial work of merely condemning the sins of the flesh. He came to condemn the sin which is in the flesh and which as such is the very root of the problem and the cause of the continual defeat experienced by all those who still possess this inner evil power.
Why did He come to condemn the sin in the flesh? It was that, once it had been condemned, "the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
Over and again the message is the same. The old is condemned, it is eradicated and removed so that a certain objective may be fulfilled. That purpose is that we might be placed where we can live the life of the righteousness of God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
When Jesus came and effected the condemnation of the sin in the flesh, to what did He condemn it? Did He condemn it to be placed under subjugation and control? Did He condemn it to exile? Did He condemn it merely as a declaration of disapproval? He condemned it to none of these. He condemned it to death, a death which became effective through the result of His death and resurrection.
Nowhere is the truth of this more plainly stated than in Romans 8:1-6.
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
Verse six is the climax of the argument contained in these verses. While the previous verses have made it plain that those who are in Christ Jesus, and are therefore God's true children who have justification and therefore have a title to the kingdom above, have died and been raised as He died and was raised, this verse specifically tells what it is that has died.
But before attention is turned to that which must die before we are set free from sin, let the force of the message of the previous verses be seen. The message here is that only those who have died can live. It is another way of saying that the old must go before the new can come in. Death always takes away the old. Resurrection brings in the new.
In its strongest terms in this passage, this truth is expressed in verse 5, "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection."
The first part of this text is a conditional clause. “If we have been planted in the likeness of His death. . . .” This is to express the great truth that unless this condition is fulfilled the rest cannot follow, for only those who have died with Christ can in turn live with Him. That is to say, only if the old has been taken away can the new come in. First, the thorn bush must be removed before the apple tree can take its place. They cannot and they do not grow in the same spot.
Now what is Paul saying in these verses? Is he uttering some high-sounding but meaningless rhetoric or are these real words about real experiences? When he states that we have to die with Christ, what does he mean by this? Do we have to actually die, or is this merely some change in mental attitude or the like?
That which makes it difficult for folk to believe that this is to be an actual death is the failure to distinguish between the sinful flesh and the sinful carnal mind, which is otherwise called the stony heart, the old husband and the sin master. Because the average person thinks of the sinful nature as being the flesh, and because we know that a person does not terminate this earthly life in order to be born again, it is assumed that this is only a make-believe death. They imagine it to be something which is merely reckoned or attributed to the person but actual in the life of Christ.
Now it is entirely true that the person who leaves behind the experience of Romans seven and becomes a truly resurrected child of God, does not die physically. He has the same flesh and blood, as a converted man, as he had while out in the world. There has been no death and no change there. Sinful flesh is mortal flesh. From this no one will be delivered until the great resurrection morning when Christ descends to call His people to their heavenly home.
But he dies, for, if he does not, then he cannot be in Christ. What then dies? The answer lies in verse 6. "Knowing this that our old man is crucified with Him. . . .” Here is something which is termed "our old man". What does this expression mean? Who or what is the old man? To make sure that we understand, the next part of the verse tells us that the old man is crucified, "that the body of sin might be destroyed. . . ." Paul could well have written as follows: "Knowing this that our old man is crucified with Him, that the old man might be destroyed. . . ." But instead of using the term "the old man" the second time, he uses the other name, "the body of sin". Thus we are helped to know that the "old man" and "the body of sin" are one and the same thing.
In Romans 7:24, it is there called "the body of this death", which is also another way of expressing that which in the same chapter he had earlier called the "law of sin". From the study already given in this publication, we now know that the "old man", the "body of sin", the "body of death" and the "law of sin" all refer to that third factor, the carnal mind, which is "not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."
This is the thing which is crucified to death in the life of those who pass from being unconverted to being converted. This is that which must be done away with by death so that a new life can be resurrected in the place of the old.
Let no misunderstanding be entertained about the fact that this is to be an actual death. Crucifixion is not exile. It is not merely being placed in prison for lifelong incarceration. It is not being chained up or put under control. Crucifixion is a form of death. Its purpose is to put to death, and those who crucify are not satisfied until this result is achieved.
Therefore, when Paul says that the old man is crucified, he means that it is put to death. To make certain that this meaning is caught by the reader, he says that he is crucified so that the body of sin might be destroyed. When something is destroyed, then it simply ceases to exist. Its life history is ended. It is no more.
In each of the other texts and illustrations, we saw that this work is all accomplished for a very definite purpose. It is that the person might pass from disobedience to obedience, from complaining that he cannot do that which he desired to do, to having the righteousness of the law fulfilled in his life. So in this verse, the old man is crucified, the body of sin is destroyed, “that henceforth we should not serve sin."
Nature is a wonderful illustrator of gospel truth. The truth then of this verse will be seen with greater force if we substitute the thorn bush situation for the old man, and then read the verse as it would apply to the gardener who desires to have good fruit but has instead a thorn bush. He tears it out and replaces it with the apple seedling. Then he says:
"Knowing this, that the old tree has been torn out by the roots that the thorn bush might be destroyed, that henceforth it should not produce thorns."
No one will have the least difficulty in seeing that this principle operates in nature and how it operates there. See the same principles of operation in the spiritual world and the understanding will be equally clear in respect to this work of soul cleansing as a preliminary to victory over the sin problem.
[This message has been edited by Ben (edited 08-14-2002).]
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Brother Ben, do you find your understanding to be in harmony with what I have shared? Also, could you explain, in the context of your examples, how sin (known sin) enters the life of the converted Christian.
Richard
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I don't see major disagreements on my first scan of this topic (apart for some attempts by others to push a new round of ceremonies on us!) However there is much more to read here than my post; have you had a chance to print it out and dissect it?
It is heartening to see that Waggoner's study on Roman's seems to be the bedrock of this topic...I am encouraged also by Joan's studies and your responses.
Knowing the difference between the carnal nature and the mortal flesh. As was said:"In Romans 7:24, it is there called "the body of this death", which is also another way of expressing that which in the same chapter he had earlier called the "law of sin". From the study already given in this publication, we now know that the "old man", the "body of sin", the "body of death" and the "law of sin" all refer to that third factor, the carnal mind, which is "not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."
This is the thing which is crucified to death in the life of those who pass from being unconverted to being converted. This is that which must be done away with by death so that a new life can be resurrected in the place of the old."
As for born again Adventists (not other Christians, as there are too many variables involved for those who are outside of the FULL protection and knowledge of God's Last Messege to man before His return...) who find themselves sinning and repenting over and over, I say this:
To make the situation fully clear we have but to trace the workings of all this firstly in the case of the man in Romans seven and then of the man in Romans eight. To the man in Romans seven comes the temptations of the devil which appeal to the desires or weaknesses of the flesh. In his mind, the man knows that this is wrong. He makes a very definite decision not to do the wrong thing and sends to the body instrument the instructions as to how to act in this case.
But the carnal mind is the real master of the man. This power in him now dominates the scene to make quite ineffective the will of the man so that the desires of the flesh are not kept under control but break out into open sin. Thus it is clear that in this situation the carnal mind is the centre of control.
In the case of the man in Romans eight, the situation is different. Once again the same temptations come to the same flesh. Once again the mind is called upon to make a decision as to what it will see done, for every temptation is a point of choice. Should the mind at this time decide very definitely that there will be no yielding to the temptation, then, provided that that decision is made in the absolute faith that the power of God in him, and the power of God from above, will combine to make that decision effective, then those mighty powers will arise to serve the will to make it positively victorious. The flesh will be kept under perfect control and the evils of sin will not appear.
It cannot be overemphasized that it is faith which gives the victory. The centre of control has been moved from the carnal mind to the will, but that will can only be effective if it exerts its strength in the faith that the Lord will make the decision effective. This faith involves the confidence of knowing the power and the certainty of God to do it. Anyone who, having been born again, thinks that he is himself strong enough now to resist the power of sin, will fall under temptation very surely. "The just shall live by faith." Romans 1:16.
MAINTENANCE
Therefore, it must follow that there is very real need to maintain the living experience which has been obtained. "The just shall live by faith," Romans 1:16, but faith can die away and be lost. Therefore, it needs to be not only maintained, but developed and strengthened. Faith is a living thing and unless living things are continually growing they will die.
So it is that daily there must be a feeding upon the Word of God. The entering into of this experience of deliverance from the old master is called "the new birth" in the Word of God. It is for this reason that a new Christian is called "a new-born babe".
A newly-born baby has only just begun the long journey of life and he needs nourishment at once so that he can develop in every way to the full maturity of manhood or womanhood. So it is that he desires to have milk for his nourishment. So, "As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby." 1 Peter 2:2.
The need for the new Christian and for the older ones, too, to study the Word of God daily cannot be overemphasized. Therein is strength. Without this daily spiritual nourishment the faith will grow weaker and weaker so that when the powerful temptations of the enemy come you will surely fall. You will fall even though you have the mighty power of God within you.
You may ask as to how this could possibly be when it is recognized that the power of God is the greatest power in existence and is certainly much greater than the power of sin. If that power is within us, then how could sin have the mastery over us?
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"So it is that daily there must be a feeding upon the word of God....
"The need for the new Christian and the older ones, too, to study the Word of God daily cannot be overemphasized. therein is strength. Without this daily spiritual nourishment the faith will grow weaker and weaker so that when the powerful temptations of the enemy come you will surely fall. You will fall even though you have the mighty power of God within you.
"You may ask as to how this could possibly be when it is recognized that the power of God is the greatest power in existence and is certainly much greater than the power of sin. If that power is within us, then how could sin have the mastery over us?"
The SDA Commentary on page 558 reads:
"...What the law cannot do, what the conscience cannot do, what unaided human strength cannot do, can be accomplished by the plan of the gospel. Complete deliverance is available through Jesus Christ, and through Him alone....
"This is the climax toward which Paul's reasoning in this chapter [Romans 7] has been pointing. It is not enough to be convinced of the excellence of the law or to acknowledge the wisdom and justice of its obligations. It is not enough to consent unto it as good or even to delight in its precepts. No amount of earnest striving after obedience will avail against the law of sin in the members, until the struggling sinner surrenders in faith to Christ. Then surrender to a Person takes the place of legalistic obedience to a law...." (6BC 558).
Therefore, sin cannot have the mastery over us IF WE HAVE SURRENDED ALL TO JESUS CHRIST. Second Corinthians 5:17 makes it VERY CLEAR that:
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Notice the Bible says when we are truly in Christ, ALL THINGS HAVE NOW BECOME NEW!! When ALL THINGS have become new, we are now NEW MEN AND WOMEN in Christ. Sin no longer has the mastery over us because WE HAVE SURRENDED ALL to Jesus. It is CHRIST IN US that gives us the Power to overcome and to obey because:
"...greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world." 1 John 4:4.
Daily reading and studying of Scripture are fine and should be done. But just the reading and studying of the Bible alone will not give us the victory over sin. There are many--both professed Christians and non-Christians--who KNOW WHAT IS RIGHT. But just knowing that which is right is not enough. We must also be DOERS OF THE WORD, and not just hearers only, deceiving our own selves (Jas. 1:22).
I can't emphasize enough that, as 2 Corinthians 5:17 tells us, we must surrender all to Jesus because EVERYTHING ABOUT OUR SALVATION CENTERS IN CHRIST. We are told in Acts 4:12 that NEITHER IS THERE SALVATION IN ANY OTHER. Jesus also very clearly tells us in His Word:
"...for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5.
M.A.
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Brother Ben, while you may have been taught Romans by Waggoner, he is not the "bedrock" of the teaching here in this topic. There has only been one quote from Waggoner by Brother Laurie. I have never read his commentary on Romans. As a matter of fact, I have never read anyone's commentary on Romans. The understanding I have that I have shared was given to me when I was a relatively new Christian. It came from Bible study and has been confirmed by the Spirit of Prophecy. If Waggoner's teaching is the same, then he probably learned it the same way I did, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
We indeed were distracted from the truth by a few who objected, but let us continue. I will repost the previous verses and continue with the rest of Romans 8.
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Romans Chapter Seven (part 1 of 2)
7:5 "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were
by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit
unto death."
When we were unconverted, sin, which is known by the law, was
done by our flesh which brings us under the condemnation of the
broken law.
7:6 "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein
we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in
the oldness of the letter."
Now we delivered from the bondage of the law (the law cannot
save, only condemn),being spiritually dead in that bondage (wages
of sin is death); that NOW being converted we should serve in the
(HOLY) Spirit, and not in outward appearance only (whited sepulchar).
7:7 "What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid.Nay, I had
not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the
law had said, Thou shalt not covet."
Shall we say the law is wrong? God forbid!!
I would not have known I was sinning and lost and condemned if it
was not for the law: I would not have known I was lusting if I did
not know the law that says, thou shalt not covet.
7:8 "But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all
manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was
dead."
Sin (transgression of the law), now that the law is known, revealed
all manner of evil in me. Before I knew the law, I did not know sin.
7:9 "For I was alive without the law once: but when the
commandment came, sin revived, and I died."
I did not know I was under condemnation (death sentence) without
a knowledge of the depth of the law: but when I found out about the
depth of the law, that it reaches to the intents of the heart, then I
became guilty and saw myself spiritually dead (the law slayed me).
7:10 "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to
be unto death."
And the commandments which are Holy and just, and given for our
good, I found to cause my spiritual death (under the condemnation
of the bronken law).
Poor Saul, he is really confused. He was brought under condemnation
by the law of God and knows not how to get out from under the
death sentence. He, like most other Pharisees, prided themselves in
keeping the law, so it was quite a shock to him to find himself a law
breaker. The Holy Spirit began to convince him of his sins after he
participated in the stoning of Stephen.
7:11 "For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me,
and by it slew me."
For breaking the commandments that I then had knowledge of, I
came under condemnation. I knew I was walking after the flesh.
7:12 "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and
just, and good."
I see the law is good.
7:13 "Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid.
But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which
is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding
sinful."
Was the good law causing me to die? God forbid!!! The
commandments showed me I was under condemnation and then I
could see the great evil of breaking the commandments.
7:14 "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold
under sin."
We know the Ten Commandments are of God, but I am unholy, and
cannot help but sin. I am a slave to sin and cannot help myself. I
cannot stop sinning. I have no good fruit in my life. I manifest the
works of the flesh for I am carnal, of the flesh.
7:15 "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not;
but what I hate, that do I."
Really, I cannot do good even though I really want to. I want to quit
stealing, but I cannot. I want to love my neighbor, but I cannot. I
hate taking the Lord's name in vain, but I do it.
Paul was not converted, but he was learning of his need of a Saviour. Where are we today? Do we find ourselves in
this situation, not being able to quit sinning? Not knowing how to walk in the Spirit? There is a solution to the
problem. Paul will reveal the solution as we continue listening to his testimony.
In His love and grace, Richard
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7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law
that it is good." If I go 65 in a 55mph zone and say I don't really want to speed, I
acknowledge that the law is a good one and do not want to do
away with it.
7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in
me."
So even though I don't want to sin (I see it is wrong) I still do it
because my mind is under the control of my flesh.
7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good
thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that
which is good I find not."
Even though I want to obey God, I do not know how. I keep
sinning. I lie, I steal, I cheat, I break the seventh commandment. I
can not keep the law of God, BUT I want to Keep the law of God.
7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would
not, that I do."
I want to keep the commandments, but I continually break the
commandments.
7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin
that dwelleth in me."
Since I do that which I do not want to do, it is not me, but my
flesh that is sinful. I really want to do good, but my flesh just
keeps sinning.
7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present
with me."
I see a principle that even though I profess to be an Israelite, I am
not, I am evil. I do want to be a son of Abraham, but I am not
faithful as he was. I live as did Solomon when he fell.
7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:"
I love the law of God!!!
7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law
of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of
sin which is in my members."
But, I see another principle in my flesh warring against the law of
my mind, and bringing me into captivity to sin. I cannot resist sin.
I cannot gain the victory over even "little" sins.
7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the
body of this death?
O wretched sinner that I am! Israel's One Great God cannot keep
me from sinning! I cannot keep myself from sinning! WHO, WHO,
WHO..... can deliver me from myself???? Is there not anyone that
can save me? I am condemned and lost.......
7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the
mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the
law of sin."
I have found the answer to my question! I now know "Who". I
have found a Saviour who I thought was an imposter and whos
disciples I persecuted. I did not understand that Jesus was the
Lamb of God. I now see why Abraham was asked to sacrifice his
son, for God did sacrifice His Son to pay the price for my sins. He
has come and delivered me from the law of sin and death. I now
can keep the law of God, I can do all things through Christ Jesus
who strengthens me. If I cease to look unto Jesus for grace, I
then have no power to do good and I then, in my flesh serve the
law of sin.
In his love and grace, Richard
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Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the
flesh, but after the Spirit." My first "Bible" was a NIV and the common quote of Romans 8:1 is what is found in that "Bible". It is "evangelical"
and is used to mislead. Here is the quote from the NIV: "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who
are in Christ Jesus,"
It is true there is no condemnation to them that are "in Christ Jesus", but the KJV goes on and explains how you
can know you are in Christ Jesus. "....who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
There has been a concerted effort to dismiss this Bible doctrine, but it is clear that the wages of sin is death and
that those who are in Christ Jesus, do not "walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit." How do you see it? Is this not
a common teaching within the church that there is no condemnation to those "in Christ" who walk after the flesh
(after all, no one is perfect). Is this not contrary to what Romans 8:1 is saying?
There is no condemnation, because there is no sin that has not been confessed that is known. In Christ the
Christian is a partaker of the divine nature and is granted grace (power) to overcome. "I can do all things through
Christ which strengtheneth me." Philippians 4:13.
This does not mean that the Christian will not fall, but rather that in Christ He walks in the light as He is in the
light.
Romans 8:2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
We have seen a shift now in the last verse of Romans 7 and the first two verses in Romans 8. Where Paul in
Romans 7 was talking about his pre-conversion experience where he did not know he needed a Saviour, he now is
discussing the "converted" Paul with a Saviour in His heart. He began Romans 8 by rejoicing that he no longer is
under the condemnation he had been under because he is now able to keep the law, walking in the Spirit. Verse
two may be contrasted with verse 23 in chapter 7. Remember Paul was saying he had been brought into "captivity
to the law of sin." Now in chapter 8, after his conversion, he has been made "free from the law of sin and death."
When studied under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit this truth can clearly be seen. Even so, God does not rest this
presentation, but inspired the apostle to continue so there would be no excuse for misunderstanding what Jesus in
the heart does for the sinner.
As we continue in Romans 8 we shall see this understanding confirmed again and again. And, while we move
forward in chapter 8, you might review backwards too, and see what the apostle says in chapters 5 and 6 in
regards to sinning.
In His love and grace, Richard
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Romans 8:3,4. "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in
the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be
fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." This text is simple and easy to understand if we do not strive against it. If we desire to support a false gospel,
then we must change what it says, but if we will allow the truth into our hearts we shall see the gospel of Jesus
Christ. These verses support our understading of Romans 7.
The law of God does not save, it condemns all who break it. BUT, not all need to be under it's condemnation.
Those who walk after the Spirit of God, not after their flesh, will not be under condemnation. Those who break the
law of God, walking according to the flesh, will be under condemnation of the broken law.
"God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh..." Jesus took upon Himself the nature of fallen man. "...and
for sin, condemned sin in the flesh." Jesus put to death sin while living in the likeness of "sinful flesh". He showed
that we can overcome sin while living in sinful flesh. Through the power of the Holy Spirit living in us we may have
power to overcome sin. This is spoken of as "walking after the Spirit."
Romans 8:5
I will not comment on this verse. The Holy Spirit will show all that it needs no interpretation. It is in plain English.
"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of
the Spirit."
It is important to put this verse with the verses we have been studying and see that it supports what has been
said up to this point. We are one or the other, but not both. Verse six will give further support to this
understanding.
Verse 5 supports Romans 8:1. Those that abide in Christ have His Spirit within and they walk after the Spirit for
they are surrendered to Him. It is not salvation by works, but rather the fruit of the relationship with Christ.
Verse 6 expresses the very same principle that Paul is trying to get across. If we have the mind of Christ, we have
life. If we have a carnal mind, walking in the flesh, we have the condemnation of the broken law and thus death.
"For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." This whole discussion is
indicating that we (Christians) have found that through Christ we can overcome sin; we can escape the "captivity
to the law of sin" which is in our members. Praise God that through Christ we can "walk in the light as He is in the
light." This is not salvation by works, but works by salvation. "I can do all things through Christ who strengtheneth
me." Amen. It is Christ, not I. No salvation by works. It is salvation by grace, the grace of Jesus Christ. This great
love of God for us while we are yet sinners, if allowed into the heart will transform the nature. We become
partakers of the divine nature. The Holy Spirit is revealed in the life of the Christian. These good works are the fruit
of Christ in the life.
Let me add another important point that none should overlook. Even with the good works that Christ works in the
life of the true believer, salvation is not possible. The wages of one sin, is death. All have sinned. The only way
any man can be saved is by the great suffering and death of our Saviour. Period. There is no way that one can
atone for their own sins or the sins of another. Only God could do this and He did so willingly. Let not one
accusation be made that what has been said in this thread has any measure of salvation by works. It is not so, not
in the least.
One last comment on this subject. The good works that are seen in the life of the true believer are there only as one abides in Christ, for it is Christ that is doing the work. The moment one looks away from Jesus, self takes over. The motive becomes selfish without a living connection to Christ. Without the Spirit of Christ in the heart, man is not in a "saved" condition. His works are full of selfishness.
In His love and grace, Richard
[This message has been edited by Richard Myers (edited 08-15-2002).]
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"...What the law cannot do, what the conscience cannot do, what unaided human strength cannot do, can be accomplished by the plan of the gospel. Complete deliverance is available through Jesus Christ, and through Him alone...." (6BC 558).
This is precisely why the devil does not want us to SERIOUSLY study the Bible. Because He knows that the plan of the Gospel is in Its pages. He also knows that if one will HUMBLY AND REVERENTLY study this plan, one will discover that COMPLETE DELIVERANCE FROM SIN is available through Jesus Christ. But, in order to spiritually discern this, we must come to God's Word WITH THE RIGHT ATTITUDE which, unfortunately, many do not do. Let me illustrate:
"Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not after their works: for they say and do not." Matthew 23:1-3.
The Scribes and Pharisees were the religious leaders of the people in Jesus' day. Surely if anyone knew what "Thus saith the Lord," it would be these individuals. But notice what Jesus told those gathered. He said whatsoever they tell you to do, do that. But don't do as they do, because they say, but do not. Jesus, in His Supreme Wisdom, did not try to belittle or degrade the religious leaders of the people. This is why He instructed the multitude to do as they were so instructed by them. But Jesus warned His followers not to do as they see them doing because they are good at telling others what to do BUT THEY DON'T DO IT THEMSELVES!!! Therein lies the problem. Some people see the Bible as sound advice and instruction FOR SOMEONE ELSE but never seem to get around to doing it themselves. Sounds familiar? It should. It's known as rendering "lip service." Jesus has something to say about that too:
"He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied [Isaiah 29:13] of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me." Mark 7:6.
GOD IS NOT INTERESTED IN OUR TALK!! Too many professed Christians have made a religion out of verbal utterances, thinking that God is "impressed" with our words. But we need to be constantly reminded that:
"...for the Lord seeth not as man seeth: for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart." 1 Samuel 16:7.
God knows the heart: WHICH IS THE REAL YOU AND ME!!! Therefore, as I stated above, God is not interested in our talk. He's interested in our walk:
"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." 1 John 2:6.
OUR ACTIONS speak much louder than our words. I believe that the TRUE CHARACTER of a Christian lies not in how well he can recite Scripture and pontificate on a particular theological subject or topic, but IN HOW HE TREATS OTHERS as outlined in the Word of God:
"If a man say, I love God and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?" 1 John 4:20.
The Bible also says:
"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." 1 John 3:15.
WE MAY NOT use the word "hate" when we are rendering evil unto another by way of unkind words and deeds, but I believe IT IS TRANSLATED AS HATE just the same because the end result is TO DO INJURY to one's brother or sister.
This is why the devil wants to keep us away from The Book and from seriously studying our Bibles. Because, when we faithfully and prayerfully study God's Word, WE SEE OURSELVES AS GOD SEES US!!!
M.A.
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No arguments from me , gentleman! This is the truth, alright.
I see that the life of Christ is the Seed, planted by the Spirit, and fed by the 'fertilizer' of the Word. The Seed will be planted only when He is allowed to uproot the "old man" at conversion.
Do you gentleman agree with what I have posted?
[This message has been edited by Ben (edited 08-17-2002).]
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Amen, the Word was made flesh. Christ is the "Living Word". The Holy Spirit opens our mind to the reception of the Word, the Truth, our God. When we come to Jesus just as we are, He reveals Himself to us. He reveals His grace which subdues our hearts and makes us one with Him. When He abides in our hearts we then have the fruits of the Spirit, not one is missing. We must continue to feed upon Jesus, the Word, if we are to maintain this experience. The moment we cease to look unto Jesus, we fall from grace.
It is a blessing to find those that are in unity on the foundation of our faith. The ramifications of this are great. There can be no acceptance of "Phariseeism" or "new theology" when one is anchored to the Rock. With the reception of this truth of the power of God's grace to transform the moral character at conversion, the teachings in the Bible harmonize. Many difficult passages begin to make sense. What to many may seem the end of a long study will prove to be the beginning of real understanding.
The real battle will now begin in earnest as Satan will do all that he can to keep us away from Jesus. He knows that by beholding Christ we shall become changed daily. He will do all that he can to keep us busy, too busy for Jesus, too busy for reading to see Jesus, too busy to read The Desire of Ages daily. Our work is more important? No. Our ministry is more important? No. Without Jesus we have no ministry that is going to lead souls to Christ.
We must be fed before we can feed others. We must partake of His Spirit in order to become the fountains of "Living Waters" that Christ would have us be. This very "narrow" theology we are speaking of is wholly dependent upon Christ. He is the beginning and the end. He is all to us and without Him we can do no good thing.
He knocks at the door of the heart today, wanting in. How do we receive Him? We come to Him just as we are. We come to Him by spending time with Him in prayer and study. Through the power of the Holy Spirit we shall see the character of our God as we read His Words. They will become life to us. He is the Manna sent from heaven to be our Food. Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. He has revealed himself through the Bible. Satan has maligned the character of our God, but within Scripture we find not only a correct description of the character of God, but we also find described the great controversy between Christ and Satan. As we spend time in the Word seeking to understand our God we will not be disappointed.
It is God's desire that we should behold Jesus and by holding Him become changed into his image ( moral character). This is how we may give glory to our God.
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"Do you gentleman agree with what I have posted?"
I agree with your post dated 08-16-2002 at 11:01 PM. To further illustrate, Christ told the self-righteous, "holier-than-thou" religious leaders of his day:
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity." Matthew 23:27, 28.
Very strong words, indeed!! The Scribes and Pharisees were known for their profession of piety and for their great display of religious acts to be seen of men (vs. 5); and for their love of the uppermost seats at feasts and the chief seats in the synagogues (vs. 6); and loved to be called "Rabbi" (vs.7). But Christ made it very clear to His followers:
"But be ye not called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren" (vs. 8).
In other words, as Christians, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ who are supposed to be about the business of LOVING ONE ANOTHER by helping each other to be drawn closer to Jesus. WE ARE NOT to give the impression that anyone among us is more important IN GOD'S SIGHT than anyone else:
"And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted" (vs. 12).
Christ was rejected because He came teaching WHAT THE PEOPLE DID NOT WANT TO HEAR! Christ came teaching humility and of making oneself of no reputation (Phil. 2:7) which were qualities that were not desired BECAUSE THEY DID NOT EXALT THE INDIVIDUAL in the eyes of others. Everyone wants to be admired and commended by others. And there is nothing wrong with that. The problem arises when praise and admiration cause us to LET OUR SO-CALLED BRILLANCE OUTSHINE OUR ACTUAL BRIGHTNESS and we end up forgetting that:
"...without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5.
It is so easy to fall into the trap of: "HEY, LOOK AT ME"!!!! It happened to Lucifer. It happened to Peter when he took his eyes off Jesus as he walked on water. It happened to some of the early Adventist pioneers of whom it was said:
"...By many who have engaged in the work for this time, CHRIST HAS BEEN MADE SECONDARY, and theories and argument have had first place...." (1SM 383, emphasis mine).
AND IT WILL HAPPEN TO US if we don't make Christ PRIMARY AND THE GOVERNING PRINCIPLE in our lives, and live EVERY DAY by every word that proceeds out of the Mouth of God (Matt. 4:4), and put on the Lord Jesus Christ (Roman 13:14) IN EVERY DEPARTMENT of our lives.
M.A.
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Amen, Brother Crawford! Self must be dead, hid in Christ. We are skipping a few verses, but verse 14 says "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."
Richard
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Hello. I'm not sure if my views are radically different, but here goes:
I believe the man of Romans 7 describes a born again believer successfully resisting the unholy desires and clamorings generated and communicated by his sinful flesh nature.
Here's why. In Romans 6 Paul clearly describes a born again believer as someone who is dead to sin and awake to Christ and His righteousness. They are free from sin.
In Romans 7 Paul explains that even though a born again believer is free from sin (so long as he remains connected to Jesus) he is nevertheless constantly bombarded by the unholy thoughts and feelings generated and communicated by his sinful flesh nature.
Paul is careful to say that they should not blame themselves for the existence of these unholy thoughts and feelings. They are only temptations, and do not become sin until cherished or acted upon. Just because we are born again does not mean that our sinful flesh natures stop tempting us with unholy thoughts and feelings.
Romans 7
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:
The "do it" Paul is talking about cannot be referring to the commission of a known moral sin, because the sin that dwelleth in our sinful flesh natures cannot commit sin. It can only communicate sin in the form of a temptation. Thus, the "do it" is referring to the flesh generating and communicating unholy thoughts and feelings.
Romans 8
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Jesus experienced this same kind of battle between His sinless mind and His sinful flesh nature. Although His sinful flesh nature generated and communicated unholy thoughts and feelings, Jesus never once cherished them or acted them out in thought, word or deed. Rather, He condemned the sin in His sinful flesh nature by refusing to sin. He ever remained connected to the Father and was a partaker of the divine nature in the same way born again believers must partake of the divine nature.
What do the rest of you think about this interpretation?
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Pastor Mike, since your interpretation directly contradicts what I have shared, maybe you would like to point out where you think I erred.
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Richard, help me out here. I'm doing my best to keep up with the conversation. I'm having trouble seeing what the contradiction is between what you and Mike are saying. Is it that Mike says we retain our sinful human nature after conversion and you say we don't?
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Richard, I'm sorry our views clash. I don't mean to be disagreeable. Perhaps our differences are attributable to how we see the phrase "sin that dwelleth in me... (that is, in my flesh)." Rom 7:17,18.
Paul seems to be saying that tempting unholy thoughts and feelings originate with sinful flesh nature. He doesn't seem to be talking about the actual commission of a known sin. Otherwise, he would be guilty of blame shifting - "it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." Rom 7:17. Rather, the "do it" apparently refers to the temptations generated and communicated by sinful flesh nature.
Paul also seems to use the same personal pronoun ("I") to describe two different aspects of a born again believer. For example - "For that which I do [his fallen flesh clamoring for sinful expression] I allow not [in the Spirit and mind of the new man he resists the temptations communicated by his sinful flesh nature]..." Rom 7:15.
Does this help clarify our differences?
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Pastor Mike, no need to apologize for a difference of views. :) Jesus desires us to come into unity of doctrine, but He knows that as a people we have a way to go.<P>It appears from reading other posts of yours that we are not far apart in regards to our understanding of the power of grace to transform the life. Since I have taken time to present what I feel is not only a correct Biblical interpretation of the passages, but one that is also in harmony with the Spirit of Prophecy, please take my commentary verse by verse and explain where you see a problem. I think it good for me to wait to respond until you have commented on the whole that I have posted, if this is agreeable to you.
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Richard, here's what you wrote. My comments follow your notes::
Romans Chapter Seven (part 1 of 2)
7:5 "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit
unto death."
When we were unconverted, sin, which is known by the law, was done by our flesh which brings us under the condemnation of the
broken law.
Mike: the "motions of sins" in our flesh are the tempting unholy thoughts and feelings generated and communicated by our sinful flesh natures. To be "in the flesh" means cherishing and/or acting them out.
7:6 "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."
Now we delivered from the bondage of the law (the law cannot save, only condemn),being spiritually dead in that bondage (wages
of sin is death); that NOW being converted we should serve in the (HOLY) Spirit, and not in outward appearance only (whited sepulchar).
Mike: when we are born again we are dead to sin and awake to Christ and His righteousness. The law no longer condemns us as lawbreakers because now our Spirit connected experience in is harmony with the law and the example of Jesus.
7:7 "What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid.Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the
law had said, Thou shalt not covet."
Shall we say the law is wrong? God forbid!!
I would not have known I was sinning and lost and condemned if it was not for the law: I would not have known I was lusting if I did not know the law that says, thou shalt not covet.
Mike: the Holy Spirit enables us to realize we are sinners as we look at the law we are breaking.
7:8 "But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was
dead."
Sin (transgression of the law), now that the law is known, revealed all manner of evil in me. Before I knew the law, I did not know sin.
Mike: before the Holy Spirit opens our eyes as to the true nature of the law we are blind to our true condition as sinners.
7:9 "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died."
I did not know I was under condemnation (death sentence) without a knowledge of the depth of the law: but when I found out about the depth of the law, that it reaches to the intents of the heart, then I became guilty and saw myself spiritually dead (the law slayed me).
Mike: when the Holy Spirit is able to open our eyes we see the law for what it really is and we realize our lost, sinful condition.
7:10 "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death."
And the commandments which are Holy and just, and given for our good, I found to cause my spiritual death (under the condemnation of the bronken law).
Mike: the law is death for those who realize they are lawbreakers.
Poor Saul, he is really confused. He was brought under condemnation by the law of God and knows not how to get out from under the
death sentence. He, like most other Pharisees, prided themselves in keeping the law, so it was quite a shock to him to find himself a law breaker. The Holy Spirit began to convince him of his sins after he
participated in the stoning of Stephen.
7:11 "For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me."
For breaking the commandments that I then had knowledge of, I came under condemnation. I knew I was walking after the flesh.
Mike: sin slays those who stay in darkness as concerning the true nature of their sinful condition.
7:12 "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good."
I see the law is good.
Mike: the law is good because it is impartial and consistent, thus allowing the Holy Spirit to someday help us discover our sinful condition and turn to Jesus for salvation.
7:13 "Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful."
Was the good law causing me to die? God forbid!!! The commandments showed me I was under condemnation and then I could see the great evil of breaking the commandments.
Mike: the law consitently reveals sin in sinners so that they can learn to turn to Jesus for salvation.
7:14 "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin."
We know the Ten Commandments are of God, but I am unholy, and cannot help but sin. I am a slave to sin and cannot help myself. I cannot stop sinning. I have no good fruit in my life. I manifest the works of the flesh for I am carnal, of the flesh.
Mike: when Adam sinned the human race became the slaves of sin, self and Satan. Our fallen flesh natures crave and clamor to express and experience sin. But it cannot sin in and of itself. Sinful flesh nature can only generate and communicate tempting unholy thoughts and feelings.
7:15 "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I."
Really, I cannot do good even though I really want to. I want to quit stealing, but I cannot. I want to love my neighbor, but I cannot. I hate taking the Lord's name in vain, but I do it.
Mike: our sinful flesh natures crave the unholy things that those who are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man reject and resist unto to the honor and glory of God.
Paul was not converted, but he was learning of his need of a Saviour. Where are we today? Do we find ourselves in this situation, not being able to quit sinning? Not knowing how to walk in the Spirit? There is a solution to the problem. Paul will reveal the solution as we continue listening to his testimony.
Mike: he was converted, therefore he was able to reject and resist the unholy temptations suggested by his fallen flesh nature.
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7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good."
If I go 65 in a 55mph zone and say I don't really want to speed, I acknowledge that the law is a good one and do not want to do
away with it.
Mike: if the Holy Spirit empowers me to recognize and resist the unholy clamorings of my fallen flesh nature, then I am led to conclude that whatever the law condemns is for my best good.
7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."
So even though I don't want to sin (I see it is wrong) I still do it because my mind is under the control of my flesh.
Mike: now that I am born again it is no longer I who clamors for sin, but rather they originate with my fallen nature.
7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that
which is good I find not."
Even though I want to obey God, I do not know how. I keep sinning. I lie, I steal, I cheat, I break the seventh commandment. I
can not keep the law of God, BUT I want to Keep the law of God.
Mike: my flesh is full of sinful desires, but in the mind of new man I am willing and able to obey the law, however the power to perform in harmony with the law is not found within me but in Jesus Christ.
7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do."
I want to keep the commandments, but I continually break the commandments.
Mike: the good things I enjoy doing in the Spirit and mind of the new man, and the evil things I hate doing, are the very things my flesh craves to experience.
7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."
Since I do that which I do not want to do, it is not me, but my flesh that is sinful. I really want to do good, but my flesh just
keeps sinning.
Mike: it's not me craving unholy thoughts and feelings, when I'm walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man I am dead to sin and awake to righteousness, thus it is my flesh that generates and communicates sinful suggestions.
7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me."
I see a principle that even though I profess to be an Israelite, I am not, I am evil. I do want to be a son of Abraham, but I am not
faithful as he was. I live as did Solomon when he fell.
Mike: my fallen flesh nature always craves to express and experience sin.
7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:"
I love the law of God!!!
Mike: so long as I am walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man I love the law of God.
7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."
But, I see another principle in my flesh warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to sin. I cannot resist sin. I cannot gain the victory over even "little" sins.
Mike: I am born in captivity to a sinful, fallen nature which is at war with my born again new man mind.
7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
O wretched sinner that I am! Israel's One Great God cannot keep me from sinning! I cannot keep myself from sinning! WHO, WHO,
WHO..... can deliver me from myself???? Is there not anyone that can save me? I am condemned and lost.......
Mike: "this death" is a referrence to the sinful clamorings of fallen nature.
7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
I have found the answer to my question! I now know "Who". I have found a Saviour who I thought was an imposter and whos disciples I persecuted. I did not understand that Jesus was the Lamb of God. I now see why Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son, for God did sacrifice His Son to pay the price for my sins. He has come and delivered me from the law of sin and death. I now can keep the law of God, I can do all things through Christ Jesus who strengthens me. If I cease to look unto Jesus for grace, I then have no power to do good and I then, in my flesh serve the
law of sin.
Mike: Jesus is the One who empowers us to live in harmony with His law, and to reject and resist the unholy suggestions generated by our fallen flesh natures. In the Spirit and mind of the new man we serve the law of God, while at the same time our flesh generates and communicates tempting unholy thoughts and feelings.
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Dear Brother Mike,
I hope that you will excuse me for jumping in at this point. BTW, I am sorry if I missed it earlier, but I was wondering where it is that you pastor. I couldn't find you listed in the AZ Conf., so I was wondering if you are new to AZ, or whether you were a retired minister.
Thank you for sharing your position on this passage. Surely God does want us to come into a harmonious understanding on this subject. The difference between Richard's view and yours seems clear to me. Was Paul discussing his converted experience or unconverted experience in the latter part of Romans 7?
I believe that some of the following points should be considered.
1. First, I think we can probably all agree with this. Paul is not shifting blame in this passage, when he says, "it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me". It would be well for us to note that this is not unprecedented phraseology. Jesus used it a number of times.
Mark 13:11 "for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost"
John 12:44 "He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on Him that sent me."
These texts, like Romans 7:20, appear to contain contradictions. In reality, they are easily understood. Obviously the disciples were speaking. Obviously people would believe on Jesus. These texts are simply elucidating the deeper cause or implications of the original action. This demonstrates that according to the way Scripture uses this phraseology, Paul can be referring to known sin without blame shifting. Therefore, we should not assume that Paul is denying that he was actually sinning on the basis of Romans 7:17,20.
2. The plain wording of the passage demonstrates that Paul is clearly referring to the commission of sin and omission of good deeds that he knows to are right or wrong. "For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do." Describing the "do it" as only temptations or the clamors of the flesh is a very unsatisfactory explanation.
The problem in Romans 7 is not temptation. Jesus was "in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin". The problem is what is happening in relation to temptation. Paul is doing evil and not doing the good he knows to do in the experience described. The issue here is clearly performance.
3. "In the flesh", Paul realizes that he is a slave to sin. He cannot do the right that he desires to do. He is in "captivity to the law of sin which is in his members". In fact, the man in Romans 7:24 is very much aware of his dilemma. He needs to be delivered; to be saved. Romans 8:2 is in direct apposition to this. When the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus enters the picture, Paul is no longer captive, but "free from the law of sin and death." It would be very bad news to hear that the Holy Spirit leaves us "wretched" and needing to be "delivered".
4. A person "in the flesh" cannot be equated with a saved person. Whether the "motions of sins" is temptation or not, the "in the flesh" person has no defense against them and they bring forth "fruit unto death". Rom. 7:5
5. In the first part of Romans 7 Paul contrasts the person in the flesh with the one in the Spirit. In the last part of Romans 7 and the first part of Romans 8, Paul contrasts the experience of the person that is "in the flesh" with that of the person "in the spirit". The person who is "in the flesh" is lost. See Romans 8:7-9. Note the person who is in the flesh, not only has "sinful flesh". We all have that. The person in the flesh, has the "carnal mind", that is enmity with God.
6. Yes, the flesh of itself is not sin, but Paul is not only describing the flesh, but what dwells in the flesh- a mind of sin and rebellion, that cannot do what is right but is enslaved to unbelief. A carnal mind is controlled by the flesh. The lusts and cravings of the flesh control it, therefore the person with such a carnal mind cannot please God, because he cannot be in harmony with the law of God, no matter how much he might desire to be. "But I see another law (ruling principle) in my members warring against the law (rulership) of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law (rulership) of sin which is in my members." Paul is describing the experience of a person who cannot say "No" to the desires of the flesh. His carnal mind "is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."
7. Of course, I hope that we all agree that Paul was converted when he wrote this. However, it would a mistake to assume that Paul was describing his "in the Spirit" experience in Rom. 7:13-25. Paul plainly says, that he is describing, "ego autos", that is "I, myself". Paul is describing what it is to be on our own, without the Holy Spirit.
8. While the man of Romans 7, has come through the conviction of the Spirit by the Law to realize what is right and wrong. And though a person in the flesh, may have desires to do what is right. Yes, a person in the flesh may recognize the beautiful nature of doing what is right. They may delight in the law after the inward man (their mind). Nevertheless, none of these things is enough. Conviction is not conversion. The Pharisees really delighted in the law, but unfortunately being in the flesh, they had no defense against temptation. Without Christ, nobody can "perform that which is good". The person in the last part of Romans 7 is not able to successfully resist or reject the temptations of the flesh; He is rather "brought into captivity". Our own resistance to temptation is weak and ineffective. This is the position of the man described in Romans 7.
9. The usage of death in the entire passage clearly refers to death from the condemnation of sin. See Romans 7:5-6,9-12. Clamors for sin could not be rightly described as leading to death. The commission of sin is what leads to death. This must be the "death" referred to in Romans 7:24.
In conclusion, I must respectfully disagree with your interpretation of this passage.
In Christian love,
David L Wilson
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Amen, Brother David. That is the way I see it.
Pastor Mike, I appreciate your comments, but I have a hard time when I attempt to ignore some of Paul's statements. I think I understand what you are saying. It appears that we can still be in harmony on the gospel even with our difference on these verses. It does not appear that your interpretation allows for a person to sin, a known sin and retain eternal life. Is this true?
If I understand your position, I look forward to us coming into a better understanding of these verses. May the Lord grant us an extra measure of His Spirit.
Richard
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David and Richard, thank you for the detailed discussion on this issue. It is a blessing studying with you. I am not currently serving the church as a conference pastor. I took leave two years to start a self-supporting outdoor ministry. The Lord is truly blessing.
RE: Rom 7:14-25. I agree that Paul is not blame shifting. And I also agree that it is not a sin to be tempted. And I agree that sinful flesh nature cannot sin. A born again believer does not and cannot commit a moral sin so long as he walks in the Spirit and mind of the new man. Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. However, this is not to suggest that he cannot resurrect the mind of the old man and revert back to some crucified and buried moral defect of character and commit a sin. But sin cannot happen in the mind of the new man, it can only happen in the mind of the old man. Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
I believe the context of Rom 7:14-25 is "sin that dwelleth in me... that is, in my flesh" (Rom 7:17,18), as such I am led to conclude that he is talking about the tempting sinful thoughts and feelings generated and communicated by his fallen flesh nature. I realize we don't see eye to eye on this passage, but praise God we do agree on the important aspects of salvation - Jesus came to set us free from sin to live a life unto His honor and glory, NOW! Amen. Thank you, Jesus!!! 1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
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I like your understanding Mike. There seem to be different types of sin. One is defined as law breaking: "sin is transgression of the law". But stories like those found in 2 Chronicles 30, or David's eating of the shewbread, show that the sin "that is unto death" is an attitude of the heart, an attitude of rebellion toward God, moreso than simply a breaking of the law. God judges by looking at the motives of the heart.
This type of sin (attitude of rebellion) is fatal. It is this type of sin that requires a new heart, being born again. As long as you maintain an attitude of loyalty to God you cannot lose your salvation. But you can always choose to change your mind, grieve the Spirit, and adopt an attitude of rebellion against God. There will be no rebels in Heaven.
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Dear Mike,
That's a neat project!
Thank you for clarifying your position on sin. We can rejoice together in the assurance that as believers we can and do have victory through the indwelling Spirit.
It seems to me that your clear understanding of victory over sin would lend itself more readily to the historical position on Romans 7 rather than the new one. I am definitely intrigued by the fact that you don't fit that pattern.
If I understand you correctly, your position does seem to be very unique. After all, most people that argue for Romans 7 describing the converted Paul, seem to hold experiencing victory over actual sin as not necessary to conversion. From my experience, they also seem to teach that committing known sin is normative for the Christian life. They also usually ascribe moral fallenness to our flesh itself. Because of the latter point, they usually deny that Jesus took our fallen flesh. They argue that His flesh had to be different than ours or else He would have sinned.
In order to understand where you are coming from on this passage, I was wondering whether you believe that Jesus took flesh that was exactly like yours and mine, or if he took flesh exempt from the tempting feelings, etc.
In Christ,
David L Wilson
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Randy, you make a good point about the different ways of sinning. What I like about Jesus is that He empowers us to live without sin. Thank you Lord!!
David, I think Rom 8:3 makes it clear that Jesus possessed the same fallen flesh nature described in Rom 7:14-25. And like the man of Romans 7, Jesus successfully resisted the unholy thoughts and feelings generated and communicated by His sinful flesh nature. I do not buy into the excuses people make up to justify sinning and repenting. Jesus is bigger than all the excuses man can come up with. Amen!!
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2 Peter 1
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.According to this passage, when do we start partaking of the divine nature - before or after we escape our moral defects of character?
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"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." Before my conversion, I was captive to the law of sin and death, but with Jesus in my heart, I am set free from the captivity and am able to walk in the Spirit. When ever I take my eyes off of Jesus, I am again captive to sin and death.
Richard
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Dear Mike,
Thank you for answering my question on Christ's nature. I am glad to say that we definitely agree that Jesus took our fallen flesh. We should rejoice that we have such a Savior as can identify with our temptations and trials. He overcame in our flesh, proving beyond controversy that we, too, may overcome fully, through the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit.
I continue to be intrigued with your interpretation of the latter part of Romans 7. I cannot see how you can defend the idea that the man of Romans 7 "successfully resisted the unholy thoughts and feelings generated by....his sinful flesh". I would appreciate if you could show me where the text speaks of such a successful and victorious experience.
Please allow me to submit some other thoughts for your consideration. Would it be clearly appropriate for us to use the phrases in Romans 7 to describe Jesus? When the law of sin, warred in Christ's members did it actually bring Him "into captivity to the law of sin"? Remember Paul introduces this experience by describing himself as "carnal". Is it safe to say that Jesus was ever "carnal"? Did Jesus ever do the sin that He hated? Did sin ever dwell in Jesus? See Rom. 7:17. Did Jesus ever do the evil which He would not?
We should take the words of this passage for their plain and obvious meaning. When we take the Bible as it plainly reads, I cannot see how we can fully identify Jesus with the fallen experience described in the text of Romans 7.
In Christ,
D L Wilson
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DL Wilson wrote:
"Please allow me to submit some other thoughts for your consideration. Would it be clearly appropriate for us to use the phrases in Romans 7 to describe Jesus? When the law of sin, warred in Christ's members did it actually bring Him "into captivity to the law of sin"? Remember Paul introduces this experience by describing himself as "carnal". Is it safe to say that Jesus was ever "carnal"? Did Jesus ever do the sin that He hated? Did sin ever dwell in Jesus? See Rom. 7:17. Did Jesus ever do the evil which He would not?"
I believe that the fact Romans 8:3 goes on to describe Jesus in the context of "sinful flesh" leaves the reader with no other conclusion than that Jesus did indeed wage the same war that born again believers must fight daily as they resist the unholy clamorings of their fallen flesh natures.
It is this clear connection that encourages Bible students to interpret the experience of the man of Romans 7:14-25 in light of a born again believer successfully resisting the unholy thoughts and feelings generated and communicated by his fallen nature.
Yes, as I see it, Jesus was born with a carnal or fallen nature just like the rest of us. In this sense He too was sold into the slavery and captivity of sinful nature. His sinful flesh nature warred against His mind in the same it wars against the mind of a born again believer.
But Jesus never sinned. He never gave into the unholy clamorings of His fallen flesh nature. Like a born again believe, who walks in the Spirit and mind of the new man, Jesus did not sin.
Do you see what I mean?
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Pastor Mike, I think that DL has a very good point. He (she) points out that the phrase "into captivity to the law of sin" does not apply to Jesus. You are saying it does.
This is quite difficult for the reading is rather pointed. Jesus was never "captive" to sin. Yes, you may think in terms of the flesh, that you or I are captive, but we may not think of Jesus as being "captive" to the law of sin and death. Jesus did not need a saviour, but we all do.
The three of us agree on the most important point of victory over sin, so this discussion is of little consequence from that standpoint, but there is benefit to be gained from the correct understanding.
There are some who take the nature of Christ past where need be. We refute the teachings of such as Walter Martin and Desmond Ford, but we need not make Jesus in all ways like us. He is God and always was. He never sinned and all of us have. In Him was no propensity to sin. Again, we are solid in our understanding that Jesus is our example and He came in the "likeness of sinful flesh." There was no excuse for Adam to sin and there is less excuse for us to sin. We may be partakers of the divine nature and escape the corruption that is in the world. We may walk with Jesus continually.
The incarnation is a mystery. How God could be in humanity we cannot fathom, but we believe. Not a taint of sin rested upon Christ. Never a sinful thought lingered upon His mind. All suggestions were immediately repulsed. Oh, that we too shall reach this condition on a continual basis. By God's grace we shall.
So, I return to our friends point. Jesus was never in "captivity to the law of sin and death". His death was in response to our sins, not His. On the other hand, when we are not in Christ, we are indeed in "captivity to the law of sin and death." We do the things we ought not to and we don't do the things we ought to. Praise the Lord though, that we know who can deliver us from the body of death. We will never ask "Who can deliver us?" We know full well and testify of it daily. :)
In His love and grace,
Richard
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Richard, thank you sharing your thoughts. I agree with what you wrote, but I'm not ready to concede that we can use Romans 7:14-25 to substantiate what you said about Jesus and His sinful flesh nature.
Romans 7:14 and 23
"I am carnal, sold under sin.... But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."
My interpretation of these passages is very different than the one you subscribe to, which accounts for our different points of view. I agree with you that getting this passage right is beneficial.
As I understand it, Adam "sold" out the human race when he sinned. Ever since then every person is born with a sinful flesh nature. We are born "captive" in fallen flesh nature, and will ever remain in slavery or bondage until the day Jesus rewards us with sinless flesh nature. That's the imagery Paul and Peter use in 2 Cor 5:1-9 and 2 Peter 1:13,14. That is, we are stuck with sinful flesh nature until we die or until Jesus arrives.
"The law of sin in my members" isn't, from what I can tell, referring to the commission of known sin, but is referring to the unholy clamorings of fallen flesh nature. I believe this is the trust of what Paul is talking about in Romans 7. He's describing the warfare that wages within the mind of born again believers.
I believe the "do it" throughout Romans 7:14-25 is talking about the unholy thoughts and feelings generated and communicated by sinful flesh nature. It's the "law in my members [sinful flesh]" warring against the "law of my [new man] mind." Jesus experienced this same kind of warfare.
Otherwise, if the "do it" in verses 17 and 20 is talking about actually committing a known sin then Paul is blame shifting, i.e., blaming sinning on sin.
At any rate, this is what makes sense to me.
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Dear Mike,
I appreciate your willingness to candidly and kindly discuss this issue. I would not wish to belabor the point under discussion, but I believe it would be nice if we could come into harmony on the subject.
I am glad that we all agree that Christ took our fallen flesh and that we all may overcome the clamourings of our fallen flesh. I would add, that such overcoming is absolutely essential to our salvation.
I agree with your general viewpoint in the 9-30 post, although this is not what I find being described in Romans 7.
Rather, I find that Romans 7 is talking about my experience, as I, "of myself", a carnal being, continually fail. As I try to resist my fleshly clamourings with my own resources, I find that "sin dwelling" in my heart always responds favorably to the flesh. Making it impossible for me to do the good that I want to do. Instead I actually do the sin, because there is sin dwelling in me causing me to do it. I am a captive in slavery to sin. If the law of sin is "sinful clamourings", than being captive to it must mean that I am forced to obey and follow those clamourings. This is exactly the circumstance, I find myself in, apart from Christ. I can only do what my flesh urges me to do, because my carnal mind has no defense against. My will is captive to the flesh. Nevertheless, the law tells me of my condemnation unto death and therefore of my need to be delivered. Because of this I am entirely miserable. Therefore I cry out for deliverance in my miserable state. Is there anyone that can deliver me from captivity to the clamourings of my flesh? Only Jesus Christ, my Lord, who has made the New Birth possible.
Romans 8 describes a new and different experience, through Jesus Christ. One of being free from the law of sin and death. This is in total contrast to being "captive". This freedom does not come because I have a different flesh. As we all agree, we will only receive sinless flesh when Christ comes again. Rather, I am set free from the law of sin and death because through Christ sin itself no longer dwells in me, but the Holy Spirit. I am no longer carnal, but spiritual---in harmony with the law. When I was carnal, having a carnal mind, I could not possibly obey the law of God, but now through the Spirit I am free to please God by obeying His commands. Through Christ, the righteous requirement of the law is fullfilled in me.
That is how I understand Romans 7 and 8. I would be grateful if you would point out any place where this understanding contradicts with Romans 7 and 8 or with sound doctrine in general.
In Christ,
David L Wilson
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David, thank you too for the excellent manner in which you are engaging this study. It is a privilege studying with you.
I like what you are saying about being carnal and captive versus being spiritual and free. However, I believe we continue to possess our carnal nature even after we are born again with the new man mind. Converted Christians are captive slaves in a body of sin in the same way Jesus was. But they do not sin even though they are held prisoners in sinful flesh nature.
Romans 7:17, 18 and 20
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing... Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
It is the wording of these verses that lead me to conclude that Paul is talking about the unholy thoughts and feelings generated and communicated by fallen flesh nature. These verses do not indicate to me that he is talking about the commission of known sins.
Do you see where I'm coming from?
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David wrote:
"As I try to resist my fleshly clamourings with my own resources, I find that "sin dwelling" in my heart always responds favorably to the flesh. Making it impossible for me to do the good that I want to do. Instead I actually do the sin, because there is sin dwelling in me causing me to do it. I am a captive in slavery to sin."
I agree that unconverted people are incapable of resisting their inherited (sinful nature) and cultivated (sinful character) propensities. However, I am quite sure Paul isn't talking about unconverted people walking in the mind of their old man (sinful character) in step with the unholy clamorings of their sinful flesh nature.
It appears both of us agree on the idea that humans possess two types of propensities: 1) inherited, and 2) cultivated. Inherited propensities are associated with the unholy thoughts and feelings generated and communicated by fallen flesh nature. And cultivated propensities are associated with the unholy thoughts and feelings we choose to act upon.
As I understand it, unconverted people live in harmony with both types of propensities. As a result they develop old man character. But when a person embarks upon the process of conversion his sinful old man traits of character are gradually crucified (no faster or slower than Jesus can empower him).
Once self is completely dead and buried he is born again a new man in Christ Jesus. The old man propensities cease to exist. They no longer exert a force against his new man mind. However, the propensities associated with his sinful flesh nature continue to war against his new man mind.
The reason why I believe this distinction is important is because of how it impacts our understanding of Paul's discussion regarding the old man, sinful flesh nature and the mind of the new man. In Romans 7 I think it is significant Paul is careful to differentiate between the mind of his fallen "flesh" and the mind of his new man.
I believe the main point Paul is discussing is - "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing..." verse 18. In this passage he is dealing with born again believers who are connected to Jesus in the same way Jesus was connected to the Father. Jesus resisted the clamorings of His sinful flesh nature in the same way Paul describes born again believers resisting them in Romans 7.
The carnal, captive slave aspect of Romans 7 is merely a description of the fact that everyone, including Jesus, is born with inherited sinful propensities, which can only be successfully resisted through conversion and rebirth.
Does that agree with your understanding of salvation?
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1. The Saviour took upon Himself the infirmities of humanity and lived a sinless life, that men might have no fear that because of the weakness of human nature they could not overcome. Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. {MH 180.5}
2. Victory Assured Through Christ's Sinless Life.--The Saviour took upon Himself the infirmities of humanity, and lived a sinless life, that men might have no fear that because of the weakness of human nature they could not overcome. Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. {Te 107.1}
3. The Son of God came to our world in human form to show man that divinity and humanity combined does not commit sin. He is our Pattern. Through Him we may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.--Ms 16, 1898, p. 6. ("Wholehearted Service," February 10, 1898 {8MR 291.5}
Perhaps crossreferencing Romans chapters 6-8, with 2nd Peter chapter 1, would be helpful; along with verse by verse SOP commentary in context.
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Ed Sutton
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Mike,
You are in error RE: Jesus Christ and His physical / spiritual nature.
quote:
Mike
The carnal, captive slave aspect of Romans 7 is merely a description of the fact that everyone, including Jesus, is born with inherited sinful propensities, which can only be successfully resisted through conversion and rebirth.
" (Ch. 14:30; Luke 1:31-35; 1 Cor. 15:22, 45; Heb. 4:15.) Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden. {5BC 1128.4}"
I am not saying Jesus came in Edenic prefall nature. Years earlier I put forth a very detailed 7 part exposition upon Inspiration's declarations of the First Advent nature of Jesus Christ. I reccommend looking it up. Richard had said then that I left little or no room for supposition.
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Ed Sutton
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S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 7, page 943
We must realize that through belief in Him it is our privilege to be partakers of the divine nature, and so escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. Then we are cleansed from all sin, all defects of character. We need not retain one sinful propensity. Edward, thank you sharing the quote about Jesus not having one evil propensity. I agree. The quote I shared above teaches that born again believers are also free from all evil propensities.
But I'm quite sure you would agree that even though born again believers are from all evil propensities it does not mean that our fallen nature ceases to communicate sinful thoughts and feelings.
With Ralph Larson I believe Ellen White taught that there are two types of sinful propensities: those associated with, 1) inherited sinful flesh, and 2) cultivated sinful character.
Jesus did not have the evil propensities associated with cultivated sinful character. But He did possess the same evil propensities associated with inherited sinful flesh that born again believers possess.
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We have entered a very difficult area. When we begin to discuss the nature of Christ we need to take great care. It is a blessing to have light on the subject and I think it very important that we continue to quote inspiration.
The subject of the nature of Christ has a bearing on this topic, but I believe we can continue without getting side tracked. Can we agree that Jesus came in the "likeness of sinful flesh"? And, that this means he did not have a pre-fall nature, but rather inherited the nature of man after 4000 years of sin? Can we agree that He is not in all ways like us, yet He is fully man and fully God?
I think we are in agreement that there is no excuse for defects of character. In Christ they are hid. We become partakers of the divine nature. We agree that we live in sinful flesh and it strives for the mastery, but in Christ it is kept under.
Ralph Larson is not an authority on the subject. Unless he has changed his teaching on the gospel, he does not agree with our understanding. He gives eternal life to those with defects of character. This can be seen in his book Tell of His Power.
If we want to continue the discussion on the nature of Christ, let us do so in the Worship forum in a new topic.
Richard
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To me it is obvious Paul is describing the nature of sinful flesh in Romans 7:14-25. He says, "That is, in my flesh." Our fallen flesh nature has, as it were, a mind of its own and is capable of communicating sinful thoughts and feelings.
When Paul writes, "It is no more I that do it", he's clearly talking about the sinful suggestions generated by his fallen flesh nature. He's saying, I'm not the one coming up with all those hideous thoughts and feelings, it's my sinful flesh doing it.
Is that how the rest of you see it?
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It is sometimes difficult to establish what one is speaking of. But, from a careful study of the man's writings we may with the aid of the Holy Spirit come to the correct interpretation.
Paul throughout the Bible speaks of being free from sin. Here in Romans seven is a departure from all other places. Why? Paul is telling us of what it was like to be under the condemnation of the broken law. He tells us that when the depth of the requirements of the law came home to his heart he saw himself a slave to sin. Nowhere else in his writings does he speak like this. He understands that in Christ he is made free from sin. This is what he expresses in Romans eight. But, in Romans seven Paul wants us to relate to the process of coming to a full surrender to Christ. It is an important thing to understand since all who will live eternally with Jesus will have this experience.
He is telling us of his conversion. He reveals that the law is indeed the schoolmaster. He tells us what it is like to want to obey God, but not be able to. He tells us that even though he knows the law is good, he has no power to obey. He is undone and does not know what to do.
It is the same today with many who want to keep the law, but have not given their hearts fully to Christ. They have no power. Many come to the point of saying "no more, I cannot do it." They are right, but there is an answer and that is the reason why Paul tells of his pre-conversion battle to keep the law, and then goes on in chapter eight to explain the power he found in Christ.
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Amen Brother Sutton. Jesus was born without sin just as Adam was, and He was fully as capable of sinning as was Adam, but He did not. He did not even cherish one sinful thought, but He could have had He not leaned on His Father in prayer so much. He was sorely tempted, but without sin.
We need to be very careful how we portray the Son of God. The Salvation (or acceptance of it) depends on how we look on the Son of God. By seeing His Character incorrectly we see the Fathers character incorrectly and are lead to not believe.
Jesus was sinless in every way!
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With Christian Love,
Sister Glass
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Possessing sinful flesh nature does not makes us guilty of sin. Sister White makes it very clear that our fallen flesh nature cannot commit a sin, it can only generate tempting sinful thoughts and feelings. It is what we do with these temptations that determines if we are guilty of sin or not. Jesus never ever, not even once, yielded to the clamorings of His "sinfulf flesh" human nature.
Jesus demonstrated that it's possible for born again believers to live without sinning in spite of their fallen flesh natures. We must remain connected to the divine nature in order to resist the unholy propensities of our sinful flesh nature.
To insist that Jesus did not possess sinful flesh nature, with all of its unholy clamorings and propensities, is to insist that Jesus was not tempted in all points as we are, and that He is not our perfect example. I am surprised that TRO allows people to post this common misconception without at least a protest.
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This discussion is taking us away from the topic. Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh. He came in the nature of Adam after he fell. He took on the weakness of humanity after 4,000 years of sin. But, he was not in all ways like us. It is a miracle that God could fully be man and that a man could be fully God. There are some aspects of this that we shall not be able to explain. What we have agreed to is that we may overcome as Jesus overcame. This removes the error taught by Desmond Ford and company.
Romans 8:1-14 describes the Christian experience afer conversion. Let us take a look at these verses. The Word of God is clear.
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If the man of Romans 7:14-25 does not describe a born again believer successfully resisting the unholy clamorings generated and communicated by sinful, fallen flesh nature - then where in the Bible is this situation articulated?
Romans 7:17-20
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
If Paul is not specifically talking about the unholy clamorings generated and communicated by sinful flesh nature - then why is he so careful to specify "the sin that dwelleth in me... that is, in my flesh." If he wanted us to realize he's describing someone who is not converted, who is guilty of committing sin - then again I ask why didn't he say so? Instead, he wrote - "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."
Since Paul says it's no longer him doing "it", rather "now" that he is born again it is the sin that dwells in his sinful flesh nature that's doing "it" - the "it" cannot be sinning. Since Paul is not excusing sinning he is obviously not talking about the commission of a known sin, therefore he can only be talking about the unholy thoughts and feelings generated and communicated by his sinful flesh nature.
He says the "will" to obey "is present with me", for "I delight in the law of God after the inward man", so "then with the mind I myself serve the law of God." Paul is clearly talking about a converted, born again believer. But just because we experience the miracle of rebirth and victory over sin that does not mean our sinful flesh nature stops generating and communicating unholy tempting thoughts and feelings.
Paul wrote in Romans chapter 6 that born again believers are dead to sin, free from sin, the servants of righteousness. In chapter 7 he goes on to explain that even though we are free from sin that does not mean we are free from the temptations generated by our sinful flesh nature. We must not blame ourselves for the existence of tempting unholy thoughts and feelings. It's not us doing "it" rather it is our sinful flesh nature that's doing "it".
Making this distinction between what is doing "it" makes all the difference for new convertes struggling with "it". Jesus suffered being tempted because temptation was so repulsive to him. The idea of violating God's law was disgusting to Him. And that's how it is for born again believers. Which is also why is it so very important that we understand that it is not us doing "it" intead it is our sinful flesh nature that's doing "it". Unholy tempting thoughts and feelings originate with our sinful flesh nature, not us. "Now" that I am born again "it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."
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Pastor Mike, you are making a bigger deal out of fallen flesh than God would have us to do. The Apostle Paul said that he keeps the flesh under. In Christ the flesh is in subjection to the mind that in under the control of Christ.
Maybe we can be a little more explicit here. You have not been real clear on this matter of thoughts and have left the wrong impression some time ago. I tried to correct it, but let me be very clear again. A thought entering the mind is not sin. But, a thought not immediately repulsed is sin if it is a wrong thought. Where do these thuughts come from? Many are given to us from outside of ourselves. They originate with the evil one.
Can we generate bad thoughts? I don't think we do so on purpose when we are concentrating on Jesus. It may be that association with someone or something will bring back a memory and associated with that is a feeling that is sinful. The mind under the control of Christ immediatley repulses such thoughts. If we are not in Christ, the thought will linger and may even be enjoyed. This is because the mind is in subjection to the flesh. This is sin.
Now, let us go back to Romans seven verse 15. What we see here is not a moment's thought, but we have an action. "what I hate, that do I." This is clearly the yielding up of what Saul knew was wrong. This is not done by one who is abiding in Christ. This is Paul telling us about his experience when he did not know Jesus Christ. Could Paul be telling us about an experience after conversion? Yes, he could if we did not have other verses to tell us of when he was speaking. It is true that when one is converted that there is a period of time in most Christian's experience when they fall. They do not know their need of Jesus continually and they take their eyes off of Him. Paul could be saying that then "what I hate, that do I." But, this is not the case. Paul has clearly established the time period as when he was dead in his tresspasses and sins prior to conversion. We need only go back to verse 13 to confirm this. He is making reference to verse eleven when he said he was condemned to death. "Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful."
We are not at liberty to take verse fifteen and make it a temporary thought when it is clearly an action of sin... and, we must keep the verse in context which is while Saul was under the condemnation of the broken law. Paul is explaining to us what it is like to all of a sudden realize one has been a "Pharisee." He explains the purpose of the law which is good and holy, but has brought death. He tells us that he was under conviction to keep the law, but had no power to do so. He willed to keep it, but found no way to do so. This is quite a shock to a Pharisee. At this point in his life he does not know Jesus as Saviour, but as an imposter. He was about the business of persecuting His disciples. He made no association between the God of heaven who he desires to serve and Jesus Christ.
It is a miserable condition to be in, but it is part of the process that leads each of us to Jesus Christ. We must see ourselves as condemned by the broken law before we have need of a Saviour.
This is an important understanding that helps us to become true Christians. Many today profess Christ, but deny Him by their lives. A profession of religion means nothing with God. He wants the heart, all of it. When we don't see ourselves condemned by our sin, we do not see our need Jesus as a Saviour. Paul's writings labor with many today in an effor to bring conviction of sin and a realization of their true condition before God. How many today are in a similar situation where "what I hate, that do I"?
If we do those things which we know are wrong and we do not do those things that we know we ought to do, then we can know that we are not abiding in Christ. We have need of a new experience which Jesus promises IF we will come to Him just as we are.
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Richard, I agree with what you wrote about sin and law before we're converted. It's just that I'm sure that's not what Paul is describing in Romans 7:14-25. And perhaps I should apologize for making a big deal out this passage of scripture, but I happen to believe it makes all the difference in the world what we think about the origin and existence of tempting thoughts and feelings.
I also agree with you that we must immediately, without hesitating, reject and resist the sinful tempting thoughts and feelings that enter our mind, whether it comes from within or without. If we delay or linger at all we we have become guilty of it and must repent.
Paul wrote the "will" to obey "is present with me", for "I delight in the law of God after the inward man", so "then with the mind I myself serve the law of God." I'm having a hard time believing this is the description of someone not yet born again. To me it sounds like he's talking about someone who has already received the sinless mind of the new man.
And then when Paul wrote - "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me... that is, in my flesh." - It's very difficult for me to believe he is excusing sinning or blame shifting.
Perhaps we'll never see this portion of the Bible in the same way, which is sad, because I believe it's one of the most helpful explanation of how and why we still have tempting thoughts and feelings after we are dead to sin and born again a new man in Christ.
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Pastor Mike, I understand what you are trying to say, but even if you saw the conversion process the same way I do, I would still disagree with you. But, because you give etnernal life and perfection of character to those who have not been born again, it is more difficult for you to see your error here in Romans 7.
If you will attempt to stay with me for a moment I will try again to explain how you can see most easily that you have misunderstood. Again, as I explained in my last post, look at verse 15 and put it in context. Does this not mean that he "sins" when he does not want to? And you already agree that it is not after conversion that he sins. So, we have a Paul sinning when?
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Okay, it looks as though you are focusing on verses 15 and 19 and I am focusing on verses 17,18 and 20. What do you think Paul means when says "it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me... that is, in my flesh."
Also, I think I need to clarify what I believe about character perfection before rebirth. I do not view confessing and crucifying our moral imperfections during the process of conversion as the same thing as being born again morally perfect. Not sinning is not righteousness. Just because we cease to sin it does not mean that we have perfected Christian character.
Crucifying our defective traits of character is not the same thing as being born again morally perfect. Crucifying our old man habits of sin is not the same thing as perfecting character. Being dead to sin is not the same thing as being awake to righteousness. 1 Cor 15:34. We are not free from sin until we are dead to sin.
Even though we are born again morally perfect it does not mean that we are morally mature. Jesus was born morally perfect but He also grew and matured morally. The seed is perfect but it must grow and mature and blossom otherwise it will die.
We must cooperate with the influence of the Holy Spirit and crucify our moral imperfections during the process of conversion, but we do not begin perfecting Christian character until after we are born again morally perfect. We begin at rebirth where Jesus began at birth.
I thought I remember you saying awhile back that we are born again morally perfect. Did you change your mind, or did I just misunderstand you?
[This message has been edited by Mike Lowe (edited 03-01-2003).]
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As we can see we have some major problems with our definitions.
But, keeping on topic, let us return to verse 15. Is Paul sinning and if so before or after conversion?
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Personally I do not believe Paul is talking about committing sin anywhere in Rom 7:14-25. Instead, he's talking about the unholy tempting thoughts and feelings generated and communicated by sinful flesh nature. He's makes this clear in verses 17,18 and 20. Thus I believe he's talking about a converted, born again believer.
What do you think?
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7:13 "Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin."Verse fourteen taken in context with all before it reveals that Saul is unable to keep the law because he is sold under sin.
How can a Christian who is walking in the Spirit make a statement like verse 19?
"For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do." This cannot be taken in any way except to say that a person is actually doing something (sinning) that they do not want to do.
Pastor Mike, your question about the last verse in chapter 7 is Paul's answer to his question in the previous verse. 24 "Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Saul did not know Jesus, he did not know he needed a Savior. He found Jesus and the road to Damascus and in response says--"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin" verse 25.
Your thoughts that Paul is speaking of evil thoughts that come to his mind is out of context with what he is saying. He cleary states that he does these things, not just thinks about them.
A converted Christian is not captive to the law of sin and death as Paul is describing himself in 7:23. A true Christian has been set "free from the law of sin and death" verse 8:2.
The correct interpretation of Romans seven will help those who are in the process of conversion. The law has a purpose. It is the school master that leads us to Christ. It is a terrible struggle that Paul describes in Romans seven. He wants to serve God, he wants to obey the law, but cannot without a Saviour. Pastor Mike, your idea that a person prior to conversion can be saved and keep the law is in conflict with what Paul is saying about his pre-coversion experience here in Romans seven.
Saul thought he kept the law prior to his revelation of his lost condition. When he saw the depth of the law and it's spirituality, he saw himself undone. He knew he was lost and nobody could help him because he did not have a Savoiur.
Today many repeat his experience. They think they can keep the law prior to making a whole heart surrender to Christ, but they cannot. Our efforts to keep the law prior to the new birth are filled with selfishness. Saul came to see this and was in pain as he cried out "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" 7:25.
Paul admitted that he was a Pharisee of Pharisees. He knew what this meant and spent all his time in ministry showing that only in Christ could a man keep the law. A man is only justified by faith in the atoning blood of Jesus. He must accept the righteousness of Christ before he may wear His robe.
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Richard, there probably isn't much more we can say that will change our minds about this passage. You are certain your interpretation is correct, and I'm certain mine is correct. It is also certain that they are in radical contradiction.
The human race was sold into slavery and sin when Adam fell. We are born carnal, we are carnal by nature. I believe as long as we reside in sinful flesh nature we are in a prison house of sin - "the body of this death." And this will continue to be true until Jesus returns to reward us with sinless flesh nature.
But just because we are captives of sin and death it does not mean that we are guilty of sinning. Jesus proved that it's possible for born again believers to recognize and resist the unholy clamorings generated by their fallen flesh nature. Jesus makes us free from committing sin but we are not free from the law of sin and death so far as it's ability to create tempting thoughts and feelings.
One thing you haven't addressed yet is verses 17,18 and 20. If Paul is talking about the actual commission of sin then why does he say - "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me... that is, in my flesh." I'm still waiting for your interpretation of this.
I also said - "I thought I remember you saying awhile back that we are born again morally perfect. Did you change your mind, or did I just misunderstand you?" If you believe as I do that we are born again morally perfect, free from any and all moral imperfections, then you and I are alone, because everyone else thinks we are born again full of unknown moral imperfections.
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Pastor Mike, you ask about verses 17 and 18.
"Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me... that is, in my flesh." You say that this is not Paul talking about sinning, but just thoughts coming to his mind. I don't see how you can say he is talking about thoughts that are momentary and rejected when he says "I do that which I would not..." Paul may be hard to understand at times, but we cannot undo such a simple statement. Your interpretation in made in the light of your misunderstanding of Paul's experience in the three years prior to his conversion. You don't believe he suffered prior to his new birth on the road to Damascus. You don't see the school master "killing" Saul. You don't see Saul on his knees because he could not keep the law of God without a Saviour. You do not see Saul dead in his tresspasses and sin, but rather you see him perfecting his character and in a saved contition. This stands in your way of seeing that Paul was under the condemnation of the broken law until he met Christ. Saul had to see his need before he was ready to accept Jesus Christ as his Saviour. Saul came to understand that the law that he knew was holy , just, and good could not save him, but rather it "slew" him, verse 11.
Let me try another approach that may help. Is it not true that Saul was murdering the disciples of Christ prior to his new birth when meeting Jesus? Is it not true that this behaviour continued right up to his conversion? If so, how can you give him eternal life and call him a law keeper while doing such things? He was not keeping the Spirit of the law, nor the letter of the law. He was very ambitious and was climbing the ladder of success as a Pharisee. The Holy Spirit was speaking to Saul. What do you think the Spirit was saying to Saul? Do you think it was trying to point out that Saul was doing wrong? Do you think that Saul may have begun to understand that those who he was responsible for killing were reflections of the God of heaven and more just than himself?
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Richard, you're right, my understanding of the salvation status of people during the process of converting influences what I think about Paul before he was converted. He wrote - "For I was alive without the law once." Rom 7:9. "If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." Phil 3:4-6.
Paul's description of himself does not remind me of someone who was a hypocrit or of someone who was violating his conscience or convictions. He was living the letter of the law blamelessly, faultlessly. The nature of his outward acts of obedience did not change when he was converted. Yes, the origin of his obedience changed radically, but not the nature of his obedience. That is, he was still sincere, upright, conscientious, honest, refused to violate his convictions, kept the law to the letter, etc. These are the same attributes of someone who is saved who does not know Jesus as their personal Saviour. If Gentiles are saved uner the same circumstances why not Saul?
"Concerning zeal, persecuting the church." Paul refers to this part of his life as something that was noble and honorable. He was fighting for the dignity and purity of the church. What he was doing, in his mind, was in harmony with the will of God. It was not unlike Moses giving the order to stone sinners to death for transgressing the law, for jeoparding the safety and security of the nation of Israel. He was defending the honor of God. His intentions were good, but his efforts were misguided.
After he was converted he redirected the same kind of holy zeal towards defending the church of Christ. "Ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." Jude 3. The same fiery indignation existed, only now he trusted God to repay. "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." Gal 1:8. "I would they were even cut off [castrated] which trouble you." Gal 5:12.
Back to this: "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me... that is, in my flesh." If my interpretation is wrong, then what is he talking about? If he's not talking about tempting thoughts and feelings, then what is he talking about? If he's talking about committing sin, then why is he excusing it? why is he blame shifting? The Paul I know would not blame sinning on the clamorings of sinful flesh nature .
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Paul is not blame shifting, he is stating the reality that he has no power to do that which he sees as being right. He is admitting that in him is a power that can only do evil. We must begin in Eden and understand what happened when Adam sinned. This is what Paul is stating so clearly.
When Adam disobeyed God and ate the forbidden fruit there was a change in his nature. Before, he did what was right naturally. He was one in Spirit with God. But, when he sinned he no longer had power to do good. The mind still understood what was good, but Adam had no power to do it. His flesh was master and his mind was the servant. This is precisely what Paul is telling us. He knew what was right, just, and good, the law of God. He wanted to obey it, but had no power to do it. Paul is only saying it like it is. In the flesh there is no power to keep the law as it is to be kept.
As for blame shifting, I don't see this is what is going on. Paul understood when he wrote these words that there is never an excuse for sin, but he also understood that he was ignorant of his need of a Saviour at the time before he was converted. God gives us temporal life and many opportunities to learn our need. I am sure that the Apostle Paul felt that he had been given many opportunties to know Jesus and I am sure that he felt badly that he was not converted sooner. I do not see him blame shifting, but only stating the reality of the utter futility to do what is right in his own strength.
It appears that your understanding of verse 7:9 is out of context. "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Before there is a knowledge of the spirituality of the law, a man who professes religion can see himself as being a very good person, ie. Nicodemus in the garden and Saul prior to the stoning of Stephen. There is a principle at work here that Jesus refers to when He said "If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth." John 9:41.
Both Paul and Jesus do not give countenance to sin, nor do they give eternal life to the unconverted. What they are both saying is that before the knowledge of the depth of the law comes home to the heart, we are not seen by God as guilty of that sin as we would be when the truth is revealed to us.
When Paul said he was alive once, he is not talking about the period of time being discussed in verses 10-24. If you will again look at verse nine you will see there is a change in Saul's life. He goes from believing he is alive to understanding he is "dead". Does he here refer to temporal life? No, of course not. Then it must be taken to be spiritual life.
Why did Saul die? He saw himself as he really was, condemned by the broken law of God. This is why he goes on to say all that he does in Romans seven until the very last verse where he reveals the power of Christ.
The Holy Spirit was using the "school master" to show Saul his need of Jesus. He learned that he was under the condemnation of the broken law. He went from thinkng himself alive to seeing the reality of his condition. Saul remains in this state through verse 24 when he tells us that he was earnestly wanting to know who could save him, for he had a true knowledge of himself and his helplessness.
Having come to this place of utter brokeness, he was ready to meet Jesus.
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"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died."
No law = one sees no sin. they think their ok.
When Paul understood the commandments and their application to him sin became alive to him and he felt as a dead man seeing then his true Spiritual state. The law does not save; it only serves as a mirror so we can see if we are living a Godly life in Christ. It shows us our real condition. When we become aware of this, we too will feel as if Spiritually dead. And only dying to Christ can change that. Surrendering our lives to Jesus total control. The more we see our condition and take it to the Lord for repair the more He will show us that needs repair. True Christians I feel will always be in a state of overcoming (repair) as the Lord opens the door more and more.
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With Christian Love,
Sister Glass
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I have been reading this tread of posts, and find it very profitable to be having this discussion. I believe as you all do, that a correct understanding of Romans 7 is important.
Brother Mike, you make the point that “”Paul's description of himself does not remind me of someone who was a hypocrite or of someone who was violating his conscience or convictions.”” And further mention that “”Paul refers to this part of his life as something that was noble and honorable. He was fighting for the dignity and purity of the church.””
I took a look at what is written in The Acts of the Apostles pages 118, 119, and see that we have been given light that even though Saul thought himself good and was sincere, he was not saved – he had not yielded himself to Jesus – he hadn’t met Jesus – he didn’t know Jesus. If he had died in this state, Jesus would have come up to him at the Wedding feast and asked him why he wasn’t wearing a wedding garment – and he would have had no answer to give – “For many are called but few are chosen.
AA says = “As Saul yielded himself fully to the convicting power of the Holy Spirit, he saw the mistakes of his life and recognized the far-reaching claims of the law of God. He who had been a proud Pharisee, confident that he was justified by his good works, now bowed before God with the humility and simplicity of a little child, confessing his own unworthiness and pleading the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour. Saul longed to come into full harmony and communion with the Father and the Son; and in the intensity of his desire for pardon and acceptance he offered up fervent supplications to the throne of grace.”
“With horror he thought of his guilt in allowing himself to be controlled by the malice and prejudice of the priests and rulers, even when the face of Stephen had been lighted up with the radiance of heaven. In sadness and brokenness of spirit he recounted the many times he had closed his eyes and ears against the most striking evidences and had relentlessly urged on the persecution of the believers in Jesus of Nazareth.”
Please Brother Mike, compare these statements with your thoughts on Romans 7 and that of Richard’s, and I believe you will see that the experience Paul is relating in chapter 7 is not that of a saved Christian who knows and loves Jesus.
Very important point to realize about those that are sincere, they are always capable of being sincerely wrong. And being sincerely wrong is not a safe place to be. “If it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.”
“Jesus read the character of His disciples. He knew how sorely their faith was to be tried. In this incident on the sea He desired to reveal to Peter his own weakness,--to show that his safety was in constant dependence upon divine power. Amid the storms of temptation he could walk safely only as in utter self-distrust he should rely upon the Saviour. It was on the point where he thought himself strong that Peter was weak; and not until he discerned his weakness could he realize his need of dependence upon Christ. Had he learned the lesson that Jesus sought to teach him in that experience on the sea, he would not have failed when the great test came upon him.” DA 382
Mike, could you expand on your point “”These are the same attributes of someone who is saved who does not know Jesus as their personal Saviour.”” Prior to his experience on that Damascus journey, was Saul sincere and saved, or was he guilty, lost and in desperate need of a Saviour?
May God continue to lead in this worthy study of God’s word.
Looking unto Jesus…………
Drew
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Good to have you with us Drew. Welcome to TRO
:)
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With Christian Love,
Sister Glass
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I'm not sure more discussion is going to change minds. I agree that God saves people who have never heard of Jesus, it's just that I don't believe they are converted or born again in the biblical sense. They are saved based on the life and death of Jesus and the life they would have lived had they known the truth.
Concerning the salvation of Paul before his encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus - I have no doubt in my mind that he was living in harmony with his convictions and conscience. As such his situation was no different than the Gentiles he wrote about in Romans 2:13-15.
Drew wrote:
"Mike, could you expand on your point “”These are the same attributes of someone who is saved who does not know Jesus as their personal Saviour.”” Prior to his experience on that Damascus journey, was Saul sincere and saved, or was he guilty, lost and in desperate need of a Saviour?"
I believe he was sincere and saved, but I also believe he was sincerely wrong. But God "winks" at our ignorance, so long as we are sincerely ignorant and not deliberately violating our convictions and conscience. His situation was not unlike the Gentiles described in Romans 2:13-15, in other words, sincere, saved, but not born again.
When Saul embraced Jesus his eyes were opened and he discerned his ignorance and blindness. His life of obedience changed very little after his conversion. The origin of his obedience changed from self to Jesus, but his outward acts of obedience were of a similar nature - that is, his life was still in harmony with the letter of the law, but now it was also in harmony with the spirit of the law. His fiery focus was now directed to defend the truth as it is in Jesus.
I reread those chapters on the conversion of Saul and I didn't find where Sister White wrote that he was lost and unsaved before his rebirth.
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The following quotes make it clear to me that Saul truly believed he was doing the right thing persecuting the Christians. He believed he was defending the Jewish faith. He was not a hypocrit of a liar or a cheat. He was not in it for money or power, he was simply jealous and zealous for the cause of God.
The Acts of the Apostles, page 112, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: From Persecutor to Disciple
Prominent among the Jewish leaders who became thoroughly aroused by the success attending the proclamation of the gospel, was Saul of Tarsus. A Roman citizen by birth, Saul was nevertheless a Jew by descent and had been educated in Jerusalem by the most eminent of the rabbis. "Of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin," Saul was "a Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." Philippians 3:5, 6. He was regarded by the rabbis as a young man of great promise, and high hopes were cherished concerning him as an able and zealous defender of the ancient faith. His elevation to membership in the Sanhedrin council placed him in a position of power.
The Acts of the Apostles, page 112, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: From Persecutor to Disciple
Saul had taken a prominent part in the trial and conviction of Stephen, and the striking evidences of God's presence with the martyr had led Saul to doubt the righteousness of the cause he had espoused against the followers of Jesus. His mind was deeply stirred. In his perplexity he appealed to those in whose wisdom and judgment he had full confidence. The arguments of the priests and rulers finally convinced him that Stephen was a blasphemer, that the Christ whom the martyred disciple had preached was an impostor, and that those ministering in holy office must be right.
The Acts of the Apostles, page 113, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: From Persecutor to Disciple
Not without severe trial did Saul come to this conclusion. But in the end his education and prejudices, his respect for his former teachers, and his pride of popularity braced him to rebel against the voice of conscience and the grace of God. And having fully decided that the priests and scribes were right, Saul became very bitter in his opposition to the doctrines taught by the disciples of Jesus. His activity in causing holy men and women to be dragged before tribunals, where some were condemned to imprisonment and some even to death, solely because of their faith in Jesus, brought sadness and gloom to the newly organized church, and caused many to seek safety in flight.
The Acts of the Apostles, page 115, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: From Persecutor to Disciple
Saul now saw that in persecuting the followers of Jesus he had in reality been doing the work of Satan. He saw that his convictions of right and of his own duty had been based largely on his implicit confidence in the priests and rulers. He had believed them when they told him that the story of the resurrection was an artful fabrication of the disciples. Now that Jesus Himself stood revealed, Saul was convinced of the truthfulness of the claims made by the disciples.
The Acts of the Apostles, page 120, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: From Persecutor to Disciple
The conversion of Saul is a striking evidence of the miraculous power of the Holy Spirit to convict men of sin. He had verily believed that Jesus of Nazareth had disregarded the law of God and had taught His disciples that it was of no effect. But after his conversion, Saul recognized Jesus as the one who had come into the world for the express purpose of vindicating His Father's law. He was convinced that Jesus was the originator of the entire Jewish system of sacrifices. He saw that at the crucifixion type had met antitype, that Jesus had fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies concerning the Redeemer of Israel.
[This message has been edited by Mike Lowe (edited 03-07-2003).]
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Pastor Mike, I am in hopes that our discussion will do good. If we did not believe so, then we would cease to carry on. I believe you to be honest in your understanding, but very seriously in error in regards to the foundation of our faith. Let me see if I can point out another inconsistency in your argument.
In your first post today, you say that Paul prior to his conversion was living in harmony with his conscience. "I have no doubt in my mind that he was living in harmony with his convictions and conscience." And on this basis you give him eternal life and then interpret Romans seven accordingly. Yet, in the Spirit of Prophecy statements you quoted we find that this is not the case. "his pride of popularity braced him to rebel against the voice of conscience and the grace of God."
Dear brother, this truth is as clear as it can be. I know that in your mind are seeds that have been deeply planted in regards to the ideas you have on the "process of conversion." They are not in harmony with Scripture or the Spirit of Prophecy. It will do little good to try and work around the basic errors you hold. They must be rooted out so that the words of Jesus will be allowed in. "Verily, verily I say unto thee, Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." There is no life until a man dies to self.
When this truth is allowed into your heart, then the correct interpretation of Romans seven will make sense.
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Richard, I'm glad you feel comfortable enough with our e-friendship to speak so candidly with me. It goes against my nature to tell someone their theology is wrong, but I don't mind it if someone else tells me my theology is wrong.
The Acts of the Apostles, page 112, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: From Persecutor to Disciple
Saul had taken a prominent part in the trial and conviction of Stephen, and the striking evidences of God's presence with the martyr had led Saul to doubt the righteousness of the cause he had espoused against the followers of Jesus. His mind was deeply stirred. In his perplexity he appealed to those in whose wisdom and judgment he had full confidence. The arguments of the priests and rulers finally convinced him that Stephen was a blasphemer, that the Christ whom the martyred disciple had preached was an impostor, and that those ministering in holy office must be right.
The Acts of the Apostles, page 113, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: From Persecutor to Disciple
Not without severe trial did Saul come to this conclusion. But in the end his education and prejudices, his respect for his former teachers, and his pride of popularity braced him to rebel against the voice of conscience and the grace of God. And having fully decided that the priests and scribes were right, Saul became very bitter in his opposition to the doctrines taught by the disciples of Jesus. His activity in causing holy men and women to be dragged before tribunals, where some were condemned to imprisonment and some even to death, solely because of their faith in Jesus, brought sadness and gloom to the newly organized church, and caused many to seek safety in flight.
I cannot ignore that quotes where EGW wrote that Saul truly believed he was doing the right thing persecuting the Christians. Yes, the stoning of Stephen made him feel Jesus was the promised Messiah, and he fought against his pricking conscience until his Damascus Road experience, but just because he was fighting his conflicting thoughts about whether or not Jesus really was the Saviour does not mean he was sinning against God.
I believe Saul was fighting the Holy Spirit but that he did not totally believe he was fighting God. He was being convicted but he was still not 100% convinced Jesus was the Messiah until the Damascus Road encounter. I do not believe he violated what he knew to be completely, without a doubt a true.
The Desire of Ages, page 172, paragraph 3
Chapter Title: Nicodemus
Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process.
The DA quote above teaches that conversion is the result of a long wooing process where the Holy Spirit influences us to eventually totally surrender ourselves to Jesus. I believe the Holy Spirit stepped up the pace with Saul when Stephen was stoned, and that Jesus "came with more direct appeal" on the road to Damascus and that's when Saul became Paul, the converted Christian.
Here's the big question:
1. Are we saved during the process of conversion before the Holy Spirit "comes with more direct appeal"?
[This message has been edited by Mike Lowe (edited 03-08-2003).]
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Pastor Mike, you know my answer to that question. Until a man makes a full heartfelt surrender to Jesus, he does not have eternal life. The situation that we are looking at with Paul before his conversion is just such a case. You can see that you are having a difficult time knowing just what was in Saul's heart. We cannot judge his heart, but we are told what was in his heart. Rebellion against God. We have reached a place where your argument can be seen to be in error. You had to contradict one of your own quotes. By your own quotes you show your case to be in error.
Let me say that it is a blessing to move through this topic with you. It is my confidence in your sincerity that allows me to speak openly. I believe we will work this out. I think one of the difficulties will be removed when you see that God will not allow the sincere one such as Saul, to die while in his period of probation. This can be seen in the Book of Job when Satan was restricted in his actions toward Job.
You want to find some way to give Saul eternal life. Saul was prideful and rebellious. His heart deceived him. He was sincere, but sincerely wrong and this resulted in him being the "chief of sinners". He was responsible for killing the disciples of Christ even after the Holy Spirit revealed to him they were His. My friend, stop and consider what you are saying. God has been trying to reveal to you the high and holy calling to which we are called. By giving Saul eternal life you undo the precise thing you work for.
I, too, am not offended by one correcting me. When you first began posting in this topic, you contradicted what I had been saying. Is this not the same as outwardly expressing one is in error? I was happy to agree to disagree until I later found out why you feel as you do about Romans seven. It was only after you began to teach that one has eternal life prior to conversion that I had to bring the topic current. We are not defending our own interpretation or our selves, but what we believe to be God's truth. The truth will not suffer from close examination, but rather will shine the brighter. Inconsistencies will become apparent to the sincere seeker of truth.
May God continue to bless our study.
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Very well, we have reached an impasse. I believe we are saved before we complete the process of conversion, and you believe we are lost until we do.
Now what? Are we ready to discuss your thoughts on how perfect or imperfect we are when we're born again?
[This message has been edited by Mike Lowe (edited 03-08-2003).]
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If you like we can continue with Romans chapter eight where Paul explains what the true Christian experience is. It will be difficult to discuss though, because we are using different definitions for words and without consistency in our beliefs there is no solid foundation to work from. It would be much better if you could see your inconsistency in your argument in Romans seven before moving on. Why don't we pray over the situation.
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Actually since we both believe we are born again without our former moral imperfections discussing post-conversion growth in grace and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit should be a breeze. I believe you and I will encounter trouble from those who believe we are born again with certain unknown and unrevealed moral imperfections. They are going to view it as a process that involves discovering new defective traits of character which we must confess and crucify in order to maintain our salvation status. Whereas you and I believe we are already free from moral imperfection, and that the process involves maturing morally and intellectually.
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I would like to interject a few thoughts before a decision is made as to whether to go on to Rom 8. Back to what Brother Mike asked about “Are we saved during the process of conversion before the Holy Spirit "comes with more direct appeal"? I believe the reason you ask that question Brother Mike, is because you cannot hold the belief that someone on the path to conversion (on the way but not there yet) (still in the long whooing process) could get hit by a car and killed and the Lord would not save them. They were heading in the right direction, and just given more time, they would have made it. Maybe you also see it that God in His infinite wisdom and ability to know all things, could see what choices this individual would have made had he been allowed to live, and thus if he “would have” accepted Christ at some future time down the road then even thou he dies before getting there, he is allowed eternal life.
First question, and I ask it humbly, with a sincere desire to learn. Where do we see this clearly taught in the Bible and SOP?
While I wait for your reply, I have some quotes that have been impressed upon me.
“Many are deceiving themselves by thinking that the character will be transformed at the coming of Christ, but there will be no conversion of heart at His appearing. Our defects of character must here be repented of, and through the grace of Christ we must overcome them while probation shall last. This is the place for fitting up for the family above.” - AH 319
The key points here I would like us to look at is that there is something we each must not deceive ourselves over, and that is that we each must overcome our defects of character while probation shall last. We are each given an amount of probationary time to have a conversion in our heart.
Now there is only one individual who would like us dead before that process completes itself, and we know who that is. I am sure that we can agree that our devil is not stronger than our God. God will not allow any to come up short of the time allotted them. We have a judgment ahead – not further probation time. Every case has to be settled here.
Brother Mike, please look prayerfully at this statement from Steps to Christ:
“Beware of procrastination. Do not put off the work of forsaking your sins and seeking purity of heart through Jesus. Here is where thousands upon thousands have erred to their eternal loss. I will not here dwell upon the shortness and uncertainty of life; but there is a terrible danger--a danger not sufficiently understood--in delaying to yield to the pleading voice of God's Holy Spirit, in choosing to live in sin; for such this delay really is. Sin, however small it may be esteemed, can be indulged in only at the peril of infinite loss. What we do not overcome, will overcome us and work out our destruction.” SC 32
“Christ is ready to set us free from sin, but He does not force the will; and if by persistent transgression the will itself is wholly bent on evil, and we do not desire to be set free, if we will not accept His grace, what more can He do? We have destroyed ourselves by our determined rejection of His love. "Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation." "Today if ye will hear His voice, harden not your hearts." 2 Corinthians 6:2; Hebrews 3:7, 8. – SC
What do you do with these statements? Your words seem to contradict the direct warnings of the Spirit of Prophecy. She says “there is a terrible danger”, but I hear you teaching unconverted people something different. The Bible says “now is the accepted time”, and it is my belief – that all will have time to accept or reject – while they are living – and sufficient time. Even those who have not heard of the name of Jesus – the Holy Spirit still works with them in sharing light through direct work on the heart, through nature, etc….
We also should look at the investigative judgment – what is really going on in heaven as I write.
“As the books of record are opened in the judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God. Beginning with those who first lived upon the earth, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living. Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected. When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God's remembrance. . . . “ - FLB 212
Brother Mike, what do you do with this statement “When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life”? It seems harsh, but that is the very reason we have the cross. Jesus has done EVERYTHING!! for each individual soul. And each have adequate probationary time on this earth to appropriate for themselves his shed blood – to put on his perfect robe of righteousness. We need it – can’t survive without it. For if we could, then he would not have had to die.
“Features of Character in Books of Heaven.--God's law reaches the feelings and motives, as well as the outward acts. It reveals the secrets of the heart, flashing light upon things before buried in darkness. God knows every thought, every purpose, every plan, every motive. The books of heaven record the sins that would have been committed had there been opportunity. God will bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing. By His law He measures the character of every man. As the artist transfers to the canvas the features of the face, so the features of each individual character are transferred to the books of heaven. God has a perfect photograph of every man's character, and this photograph He compares with His law. He reveals to man the defects that mar his life, and calls upon him to repent and turn from sin (ST July 31, 1901). {5BC 1085.4}
Do you think that you make God less loving because some people come to a conversion experience and other do not. Don’t we all have free choice. Doesn’t God make every effort to save us.
“In the council of heaven provision was made that man, though a transgressor, should not perish in his disobedience, but through faith in Christ as his substitute and surety might become the elect of God, predestinated unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. God wills that all men should be saved; and in giving his only begotten Son as man's ransom, He has made ample provision of the salvation of the world. None need perish unless they refuse to be adopted as children of God through Christ Jesus. Many permit pride to hinder them from accepting of the provisions of salvation. They will not consent to have the grace of Christ imparted to them through faith in his name; but human merit will not make man acceptable before God. No dependence can be placed upon their works; for without Christ they can do no good thing. The elect are those who are chosen through Christ unto sanctification of the spirit and belief of the truth. But God willeth not the misery of any one of his creatures; it is his desire that none should be lost, but all should come to repentance and to the acknowledging of the truth.” - Messenger, April 12, 1893
He has made ample provision………
Please prayerfully consider my thoughts here written.
I would also like to add, that a study of Rom 8 might be helpful because we have two laws working – one is the law of sin and death, and the other the law of life in Christ Jesus. We may as we look at these two laws be able to see Rom 7 even better.
Drew
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I am not so optimistic, Pastor Mike. Romans eight is a response to Romans seven and we cannot begin on a clean sheet, a discussion of the law and righteousness when we are not in agreement as to function of law and grace.
Your teaching on the "process of conversion" gives eternal life to those who have not been born of the Spirit. Romans 8:1 states "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." We see here a very specific statement of who is not under the condemnation of the broken law; those who abide in Christ and walk after His Spirit.
How can we agree on Romans eight when we are building on different foundations? We cannot. There is no righteousnes apart from Christ. It is a legal religion that would not only give power to the sinner to keep the law apart from Christ, but also would give a place in heaven to one who has not ceased to resist the call of Christ. Until a man dies to self, he is alive. And if he is alive, then he has no peace that passes understanding for he has no Saviour. To misunderstand this most basic doctrine is to misunderstand the gospel of grace.
I believe I asked a question about the Gentile who has the law written upon his heart that you say is not born again or converted. You stated that he was not "morally" perfect. I asked when it was that God would give him this moral perfection. Or will He allow them into heaven without "moral perfection?"
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Drew, thank you for pointing out those helpful quotes. It might come as a surprise to you, but I truly agree with the idea that God cannot save anyone who is deliberately clinging to an unconfessed, known sinful trait of character or sin.
But I also believe that we are saved if we are trusting the Holy Spirit to enable us to live up to all the light He has revealed to us. Just as there will be people in heaven who never heard of Jesus or who never kept the correct sabbath day, so too I believe there will be people in heaven who died before they were able to complete the process of conversion.
The thief on the cross is an example of someone who will be in heaven who died before he was able to complete the two requirements - baptism and rebirth. "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:5.
I realize you believe Jesus will not allow someone to die before they can complete the process of conversion, but I do not share this view. Nor do I believe baptism is less of a requirement than rebirth. Both are necessary, neither are optional - under normal circumstances. However, if someone dies before they can fulfill one or both requirements I believe God will impute the life and death and baptism of Jesus, and they will be treated as though they themselves fulfilled all the righteous requirements to "enter into the kingdom of God."
I'm sorry our views do not agree, but please rest assured that I do not believe or teach we can be saved while clinging to known sin.
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Richard wrote:
"It is a legal religion that would not only give power to the sinner to keep the law apart from Christ, but also would give a place in heaven to one who has not ceased to resist the call of Christ."
"I asked when it was that God would give [Gentiles] this moral perfection. Or will He allow them into heaven without "moral perfection?"
Richard, I'm surprised you think I believe the first quote above. I have never believed we can cease to sin without Jesus, or that we can be saved while deliberately resisting Him. Here's what I believe about the process of conversion:
The Desire of Ages, page 172, paragraph 3
A person may not be able to tell the exact time or place, or to trace all the circumstances in the process of conversion; but this does not prove him to be unconverted. By an agency as unseen as the wind, Christ is constantly working upon the heart. Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process.
Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, July 7, 1904, paragraph 11
A man sees his danger. He sees that he needs a change of character, a change of heart. He is stirred; his fears are aroused. The Spirit of God is working in him, and with fear and trembling he works for himself, seeking to find out his defects of character, and to see what he can do to bring about the needed change in his life. His heart is humbled. By confession and repentance he shows the sincerity of his desire to reform. He confesses his sins to God, and if he has injured any one, he confesses the wrong to the one he has injured. While God is working, the sinner, under the influence of the Holy Spirit, works out that which God is working in mind and heart. He acts in harmony with the Spirit's working, and his conversion is genuine.
The Desire of Ages, page 466, paragraph 4
The expulsion of sin is the act of the soul itself. True, we have no power to free ourselves from Satan's control; but when we desire to be set free from sin, and in our great need cry out for a power out of and above ourselves, the powers of the soul are imbued with the divine energy of the Holy Spirit, and they obey the dictates of the will in fulfilling the will of God.
Steps to Christ, page 49, paragraph 3
You have confessed your sins, and in heart put them away. You have resolved to give yourself to God. Now go to Him, and ask that He will wash away your sins and give you a new heart.
Testimonies for the Church Volume Five, page 47, paragraph 1
We must gain the victory over self, crucify the affections and lusts; and then begins the union of the soul with Christ.
Special Testimonies for Ministers and Workers -- No. 9, page 54, paragraph 4
God proposes to purify and refine the defiled soul; then he will implant in the heart his own righteousness and peace and health, and man becomes complete in him.
Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, October 5, 1897, paragraph 13
But Jesus was ever presenting before them that these [defects of character] must be given up, emptied from the soul, that he might implant a new nature therein.
Regarding the salvation status and moral perfection of the Gentiles Paul mentions in Romans 2:13-15, who live in harmony with their convictions and conscience, who have the law of God written upon their hearts - I believe they are as morally perfect as they can be, as God can make them, taking into consideration they lack a perfect knowledge of what constitutes biblical moral perfection. But they are not as morally perfect as a born again, baptized believer.
I'm convinced that since both us believe we must be born again morally perfect before we can experience the description Paul gives in Romans 6 and 8 - we shouldn't have any problem discussing these two chapters. Just because I believe the man of Romans 7:14-25 describes a born again believer successfully resisting the unholy tempting thoughts and feelings generated and communicated by his sinful flesh nature does not mean that I am disqualified to understand or discuss the truths contained in Romans 6 and 8.
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Thank you Mike for those SOP statements. I am going to spend some time prayerfully looking at them in greater detail with the aid of the Holy Spirit. But the main aspect of these is that there is something going on with the person before he receives a new heart. The 1st DA quote is case in point - a protracted process - no such thing as instant conversion.
But is there anything else that makes the point that people are - "saved" - before conversion. Any SOP that states that a person was on the path to conversion but died before getting to the destination, but still received access into the kingdom. Anything besides the already looked at Rom 2 where the Bible makes this point?
Drew
[This message has been edited by Drew (edited 03-09-2003).]
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Drew, since I believe conversion is a process and a product I am convinced that the process of converting counts toward salvation, so long as we do not cling to known sin during the process. I do not believe we are lost and condemned during the long, protracted, patient process while we're converting. Nor do I believe God is obligated to prevent us from dying before we complete the process because He cannot otherwise save us.
We are as saved as we can be each step toward completing the process of conversion. How fast or slow we complete the process depends on how fast or slow the Holy Spirit is willing to influence us to confess and crucify our moral imperfections, which is no faster than He can enable us to keep pace. As far as God is concerned we are worthy of salvation because it is in our heart to know Him perfectly. Which is why and how He can and will save people who never heard the name of Jesus but who lived in harmony with their conscience and convictions.
[This message has been edited by Mike Lowe (edited 03-09-2003).]
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Thank you Mike for stating clearly your understanding. I can't get any clearer than your last post. I don't agree as you can tell with your interpretation of what Paul is writing about in Romans 7, it might be due to our understanding of what conversion is, I am not sure. But we can agree to disagree and I will as time progresses look forward to dialoging with you on other topics. However, I do believe this to be an important point - a foundation point - so we may find that we keep coming back to this.
God bless our study of His word
in brotherly kindness,
Drew
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Drew, we may not agree on Romans 7:14-25 but do you believe we are lost during the process of conversion, before we are born again? If so, why do you believe we are lost?
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Mike, I want you to prayerfully read these few paragraphs. They are from Steps to Christ, Chap. 2 - The Sinner's Need of Christ. This is a book that is on most churches book rack and is used to teach the very basic fundamental understanding that we as a church have. I could not say it any simpler or clearer than Sister White does through the direction of the Holy Spirit. I looked at your question and the Spirit lead me to look at Steps to Christ. I was going to start reading the first 5 or 6 chapters to help me explain to you the truth. I didn’t spend more than a minute before these paragraphs were illuminated to me. Please read these prayerfully and open yourself to understand what they are saying. She even quotes from Romans 7, so it is doubly good that these are stated. Notice in what context she uses Romans 7. Not in any way resembling your misinterpretation of it.
“It is IMPOSSIBLE for us, of ourselves, to escape from the pit of sin in which we are sunken. OUR HEARTS ARE EVIL, AND WE CANNOT CHANGE THEM. "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." "The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Job 14:4; Romans 8:7. Education, culture, the exercise of the will, human effort, all have their proper sphere, but here THEY ARE POWERLESS. They may produce an outward correctness of behavior, but THEY CANNOT CHANGE THE HEART; they cannot purify the springs of life. There MUST BE a power working from within, a new life from above, BEFORE men can be changed from sin to holiness. THAT POWER IS CHRIST. HIS GRACE ALONE CAN QUICKEN THE LIFELESS FACULTIES OF THE SOUL, AND ATTRACT IT TO GOD, TO HOLINESS.”
“The Saviour said, "Except a man be born from above," unless he shall receive a new heart, new desires, purposes, and motives, leading to a new life, "HE CANNOT SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD." John 3:3, margin. The idea that it is necessary only to develop the good that exists in man by nature, is a FATAL DECEPTION. "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." 1 Corinthians 2:14; John 3:7. Of Christ it is written, "In Him was life; and the life was the light of men"--the only "name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." John 1:4; Acts 4:12.”
“It is not enough to perceive the loving-kindness of God, to see the benevolence, the fatherly tenderness, of His character. It is not enough to discern the wisdom and justice of His law, to see that it is founded upon the eternal principle of love. Paul the apostle saw all this when he exclaimed, "I consent unto the law that it is good." "The law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." But he added, in the bitterness of his soul-anguish and despair, "I am carnal, sold under sin." Romans 7:16, 12, 14. He longed for the purity, the righteousness, to which IN HIMSELF HE WAS POWERLESS TO ATTAIN, and cried out, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death?" Romans 7:24, margin. Such is the cry that has gone up from burdened hearts in all lands and in all ages. To all, there is but ONE ANSWER, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29.” - SC 18, 19
Mike, I know that if you read thses with a open mind and desire to know the truth, you will clearly see that until the heart is changed, until the springs of life are pure, we are not going to see the kingdom of God. For if we could, then Jesus would not have had to die. It is “NOT ENOUGH” to be in the process dear brother, and I am very concerned that you are teaching this to dear souls who might believe your words and find themselves lulled into a false sense of security. You have a mighty weight of responsibility to get the gospel right.
Drew
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Drew, here's something Iposted 01-24-03 on BOL "On Being Born Again"
Steps to Christ, page 24, paragraph 2
But when the heart yields to the influence of the Spirit of God, the conscience will be quickened, and the sinner will discern something of the depth and sacredness of God's holy law, the foundation of His government in heaven and on earth. The "Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world," illumines the secret chambers of the soul, and the hidden things of darkness are made manifest. John 1:9. Conviction takes hold upon the mind and heart. The sinner has a sense of the righteousness of Jehovah and feels the terror of appearing, in his own guilt and uncleanness, before the Searcher of hearts. He sees the love of God, the beauty of holiness, the joy of purity; he longs to be cleansed and to be restored to communion with Heaven.
Note - Convicted but not yet converted.
Steps to Christ, page 27, paragraph 1
It is true that men sometimes become ashamed of their sinful ways, and give up some of their evil habits, before they are conscious that they are being drawn to Christ. But whenever they make an effort to reform, from a sincere desire to do right, it is the power of Christ that is drawing them. An influence of which they are unconscious works upon the soul, and the conscience is quickened, and the outward life is amended. And as Christ draws them to look upon His cross, to behold Him whom their sins have pierced, the commandment comes home to the conscience. The wickedness of their life, the deep-seated sin of the soul, is revealed to them. They begin to comprehend something of the righteousness of Christ, and exclaim, "What is sin, that it should require such a sacrifice for the redemption of its victim? Was all this love, all this suffering, all this humiliation, demanded, that we might not perish, but have everlasting life?"
Again, convicted but not yet converted.
Steps to Christ, page 49, paragraph 1
As your conscience has been quickened by the Holy Spirit, you have seen something of the evil of sin, of its power, its guilt, its woe; and you look upon it with abhorrence. You feel that sin has separated you from God, that you are in bondage to the power of evil. The more you struggle to escape, the more you realize your helplessness. Your motives are impure; your heart is unclean. You see that your life has been filled with selfishness and sin. You long to be forgiven, to be cleansed, to be set free. Harmony with God, likeness to Him--what can you do to obtain it?
Again, convicted, but not yet converted.
Steps to Christ, page 49, paragraph 3
You have confessed your sins, and in heart put them away. You have resolved to give yourself to God. Now go to Him, and ask that He will wash away your sins and give you a new heart. Then believe that He does this because He has promised.
Ah yes, not only convicted but now also converted. Rebirth and the new heart is a gift we receive after we have cooperated with the influence of the Holy Spirit during the process of conversion and have confessed and crucified our moral defects and imperfections. We are born again morally perfect.
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The Desire of Ages, page 172, paragraph 3
A person may not be able to tell the exact time or place, or to trace all the circumstances in the process of conversion; but this does not prove him to be unconverted. By an agency as unseen as the wind, Christ is constantly working upon the heart. Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process.Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, July 7, 1904, paragraph 11
A man sees his danger. He sees that he needs a change of character, a change of heart. He is stirred; his fears are aroused. The Spirit of God is working in him, and with fear and trembling he works for himself, seeking to find out his defects of character, and to see what he can do to bring about the needed change in his life. His heart is humbled. By confession and repentance he shows the sincerity of his desire to reform. He confesses his sins to God, and if he has injured any one, he confesses the wrong to the one he has injured. While God is working, the sinner, under the influence of the Holy Spirit, works out that which God is working in mind and heart. He acts in harmony with the Spirit's working, and his conversion is genuine.
The Desire of Ages, page 466, paragraph 4
The expulsion of sin is the act of the soul itself. True, we have no power to free ourselves from Satan's control; but when we desire to be set free from sin, and in our great need cry out for a power out of and above ourselves, the powers of the soul are imbued with the divine energy of the Holy Spirit, and they obey the dictates of the will in fulfilling the will of God.
Steps to Christ, page 49, paragraph 3
You have confessed your sins, and in heart put them away. You have resolved to give yourself to God. Now go to Him, and ask that He will wash away your sins and give you a new heart.
Testimonies for the Church Volume Five, page 47, paragraph 1
We must gain the victory over self, crucify the affections and lusts; and then begins the union of the soul with Christ.
Special Testimonies for Ministers and Workers -- No. 9, page 54, paragraph 4
God proposes to purify and refine the defiled soul; then he will implant in the heart his own righteousness and peace and health, and man becomes complete in him.
Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, October 5, 1897, paragraph 13
But Jesus was ever presenting before them that these [defects of character] must be given up, emptied from the soul, that he might implant a new nature therein.
Evangelism, page 286, paragraph 1
I have been shown that many have confused ideas in regard to conversion.
S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 6, page 1101, paragraph 1
When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again.
Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, July 30, 1901, paragraphs 10 and 11
Many who profess to follow Christ have not genuine religion. They do not reveal in the lives the fruit of true conversion. They are controlled by the same habits, the same spirit of faultfinding and selfishness, which controlled them before they accepted Christ.
S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 6, page 1075, paragraph 7
The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world.
The Desire of Ages, page 172, paragraph 1
The Christian’s life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether.
Testimonies for the Church Volume Four, page 16, paragraph 4
True conversion is a radical change. The very drift of the mind and bent of the heart should be turned and life become new again in Christ.
In Heavenly Places, page 20, paragraph 3
Conversion is a change of heart, a turning from unrighteousness to righteousness.
Maranatha, page 237, paragraph 2
A genuine conversion changes hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong.
The Paulson Collection of Ellen G. White Letters, page 359, paragraph 2
Old things, his natural temper, natural passions, and hereditary traits of character pass away, and the man is renewed, converted, sanctified.
Testimonies to Southern Africa, page 30, paragraph 2
Genuine conversion is transformation of character. New purposes, new moral tastes are created. Defects of character are overcome.
Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, April 24, 1900, paragraph 6
Then we are cleansed from all sin, all defects of character. We need not retain one sinful propensity.
Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, July 22, 1890, paragraph 15
That which was objectionable in the character is purified from the soul by the love of Jesus. All selfishness is expelled, all envy, all evil-speaking, is rooted out, and a radical transformation is wrought in the heart.
Christ's Object Lessons, page 330, paragraph 2
Moral perfection is required of all. Never should we lower the standard of righteousness in order to accommodate inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong-doing. We need to understand that imperfection of character is sin. All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes.
The Desire of Ages, page 676, paragraph 4
The life of the vine will be manifest in fragrant fruit on the branches. "He that abideth in Me," said Jesus, "and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing." When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing.
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Drew, does anybody else on TRO believe we are lost during the process of conversion? Do you really believe we are lost because we possess unknown defects of character during the process of conversion, that is, moral imperfections which God has not yet revealed to us? Do the following quotes indicate we are lost until we are completely free from all unknown moral imperfections?
Steps to Christ, page 49, paragraph 3
You have confessed your sins, and in heart put them away. You have resolved to give yourself to God. Now go to Him, and ask that He will wash away your sins and give you a new heart.
Testimonies for the Church Volume Five, page 47, paragraph 1
We must gain the victory over self, crucify the affections and lusts; and then begins the union of the soul with Christ.
Special Testimonies for Ministers and Workers -- No. 9, page 54, paragraph 4
God proposes to purify and refine the defiled soul; then he will implant in the heart his own righteousness and peace and health, and man becomes complete in him.
Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, October 5, 1897, paragraph 13
But Jesus was ever presenting before them that these [defects of character] must be given up, emptied from the soul, that he might implant a new nature therein.
[This message has been edited by Mike Lowe (edited 03-13-2003).]
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If Paul is talking about actually committing a known sin in Romans 7:14-25 then why does he say - "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me... that is, in my flesh."
Sister White wrote that our sinful flesh natures cannot commit sin, it can only generate and communicate sinful tempting thoughts and feelings, which we may recognize and resist through the indwelling power of God.
The Adventist Home, page 127, paragraph 2
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness.
And why does Paul go on to say that Jesus came in the "likeness of sinful flesh... and condemned sin in the flesh." Romans 8:3. If Jesus was able to resist the sin that dwelt in His flesh it stands to reason that born again believers can imitate His example. I believe Paul is saying that Jesus resisted the same sinful flesh clamorings mentioned in Romans 7 - the "sin that dwelleth in me... that is, in my flesh."
Since the context of Romans 7 and 8 includes Jesus resisting the sin that dwelt in His sinful flesh nature I believe it is right and reasonable to conclude that the scenario portrayed in Rom 7:14-25 indicates born again believers can successfully resist the unholy thoughts and feelings generated and communicated by their fallen flesh natures.
Also, since it is discussed in the context of Jesus resisting the sin in His fallen flesh nature it is a grave error to suggest it is talking about actually committing sin, which would imply that Jesus sinned even though He didn't want to.
[This message has been edited by Mike Lowe (edited 03-13-2003).]
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Pastor Mike, you say there are a few others who teach this doctrine that you do. Who are they?
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I need to discuss it with them before I provide their names. They may not feel comfortable with this type of environment (online forums).
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Richard, I have contacted several of my friends and colleagues asking them if they would be willing to post their thoughts on Romans 7:14-25 and they declined the offer. They are not comfortable with online forums, and they do not think posting their thoughts would be received any differently than mine have. I am sorry, but I tried to solicit their participation in answer to your question.
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Pastor Mike, you say "Also, since it is discussed in the context of Jesus resisting the sin in His fallen flesh nature it is a grave error to suggest it is talking about actually committing sin, which would imply that Jesus sinned even though He didn't want to."
Since we differ so much in regards to basic doctrine, I don't know if we can come into unity on Romans seven and eight, but I will comment on your statement here. Tnere is no implication that Jesus sinned. Wrong interpretation of Scripture could lead to such a teaching, but the Bible says that "all have sinned".... but not Christ. You seem to want to make Jesus in all ways like us, but He was not. He is the only "sinless One."
It is your argument that would have the convert doing what he hates. Romans seven does not apply to Christ because it is prior to conversion. How can this make Jesus sin? Your reasoning is very difficult to follow. I have always said it is a pre-conversion experience. It is your interpretation that causes you to change the act to a temptation to keep Jesus from sinning. It is another indication that your interpretation is faulty.
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Richard, will you please explain what Paul meant when he wrote:
"Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me... that is, in my flesh."
What is this sin that dwells in our flesh? And does it have anything to do with the "sinful flesh" Jesus inherited? And does it have anything to do with the quote from AH 127 on the flesh?
Please, I am not trying to be argumentative. I truly want to understand your view of Rom 7:14-25. I am willing to reconsider my interpretation if you can me understand what Paul means in verses 17, 18 and 20. If he's not excusing sin or blame shifting, then what does he mean?
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Happy Sabbath, Pastor Mike and all.
I will try. Let me repeat that Paul is talking about the period in his life when he was under conviction of sin. It is the time that Paul speaks of when the law is a school-master. In this period, the law is seen as the true standard. It is understood that it is holy just as Paul explains. At this point in a person's life when they have not surrendered their life to Christ, they have no power to keep the law from their heart. But, they want to.
Paul is explaining to us this experience. It is like a man who has smoked for a number of years and never did want to. He knows it is killing him. He hates the smell. He hates the cost. He hates everything connected with it. Yet, he smokes. This is a mystery to many. But, it is understood that there is something very wrong that they cannot do that which they know to be right.
It is sad that it is a mystery, for the Bible explains the situation very well. Here in Romans seven God tells us very plainly that we have a problem, that we come into the world with the problem. Paul tells us that he wants to do good, just as the man who smokes and wants to quit. He tells us that he find a law working in him that when he wants to do good (quit smoking) he cannot. He finds himself a slave to sin.
Pastor Mike, this is a condition that all who become Christians must pass through. When the knowledge of the law comes home to the heart and it is seen correctly, as when the rich young ruler discovered when Christ told him to sell all that he had, the only way one can keep the law and do what is right is to allow Christ to have full control in the life. It is impossible to keep the spirituality of the law without a Saviour taking control of the heart.
This is what Paul is explaining. He says that he really wants to do good, but he is in captivity to his flesh. Let me explain it another way. When Adam and Even sinned they no longer could do what was right automatically. Before they sinned they were one with God and their minds controlled their flesh, but after they sinned, their minds could not control the flesh. If it tasted good, they ate it, if it felt good, they did it, if they wanted it, they took it, now. They could no longer do what was right because it was right. The higher powers of the mind no longer controlled the lower powers of the flesh. They could reason and they had a conscience, but they could not do what was right. In other words they were selfish, living for the flesh, not the higher powers of the mind.
The only way that a human being can keep the spirituality of the law, that is to do what is right because it is right, is to make a full and unconditional surrender to Jesus. When this is done, then the mind is under the control of Christ and they have power to bring the flesh under it's control. Grace is a transforming power and they become partakers of the divine nature. They still possess fallen flesh, but it is now in subjection to the mind that is in subjection to Christ.
I pray that you can see the beauty of this process that leads us to see our need of a Saviour. Until we see our helplessness, we have no need to make a full surrender to Christ.
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Jesus continued: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." By nature the heart is evil, and "who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." Job 14:4. No human invention can find a remedy for the sinning soul. "The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." "Out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies." Rom. 8:7; Matt. 15:19. The fountain of the heart must be purified before the streams can become pure. He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law is attempting an impossibility. There is no safety for one who has merely a legal religion, a form of godliness. The Christian's life is NOT a modification or improvement of the old, but a TRANSFORMATION of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit. {DA 172.1}
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Richard and Ben, thank you for reaffirming that we are by nature the slaves of sin, and that apart from Christ we are incapable of resisting, unto the honor and glory of God, the unholy thoughts and feelings generated and communicated by our fallen flesh natures. I agree completely with this truth.
However, I'm still not sure what Paul meant when he wrote - "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me... that is, in my flesh." Verses 17, 18 and 20.
1. What is this sin that dwells in our flesh?
2. And does it have anything to do with the "sinful flesh" Jesus inherited?
3. And does it have anything to do with the AH 127 quote?
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1. What is this sin that dwells in our flesh?
It is "the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do." He is saying that he cannot control his flesh. It leads him to sin.
2. And does it have anything to do with the "sinful flesh" Jesus inherited?
You will have to answer that, Pastor Mike. Jesus came in the "likeness of sinful flesh" but never sinned, but Paul did sin. Jesus is not in all ways like us. He is our example in that He was tempted all ways and depended upon a power outside of Himself to overcome.
3. And does it have anything to do with the AH 127 quote?
That quote is saying the same thing I did in my last post.
I don't think you will find what we are saying about Romans seven to interfere in any way with victory over sin. It does not attribute sin to Jesus, nor does it excuse sin. It mearly explains the inability of man to keep the law separate from Christ.
Why is it that you reject what is being said about Romans seven being an unconverted man who is under conviction of sin?
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Richard, I believe we cannot resist the unholy clamorings of our fallen flesh nature until we begin cooperating with the influence of the Holy Spirit. But you have made it clear what Paul meant in verses 17, 18 and 20. Thank you for sharing your insights with me.
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It is a great blessing to be able to report to our members that the TRO moderators in meeting with Pastor Mike have come into unity with him regarding two theological points where there was concern. The first was the need to experience the "new birth" or "conversion" prior to attaining to eternal life. The second, that no perfection of character may be attained to until one is converted. These are important truths that reflect our need to make a full heartfelt surrender to our Saviour that He may dwell within us. We are pleased that the Holy Spirit led in our discussion and we all were blessed as we yielded to Him. We can anticipate that God will continue to pour out His Spirit as we prepare to receive Jesus at His second coming.
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This explanation that Paul gives us of his conversion experience ties in with his teaching on the "school-master". What does he mean by this term "school-master" and how does it relate to Romans seven and eight?
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Well, a good schoolmaster teaches us the truth and points out where we are wrong.
In terms of Romans 7, Paul could see how wrong he was in his sinful nature, because of the truth contained in the law.
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Amen, Brother Randy. Saul did see that he was "dead" in his sins. The "law" killed him and he had no power to change things. The law that was ordained to life instead brought his spiritual death. The "school-master", the law, had no power to save, but only to condemn. As Paul looked back, he understood perfectly the role of the law and the role of Christ.
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The Law cannot save, but it is a school-master and can teach us of God. This is how God started out with me because I had no concept of love, but He knew me well enough that He knew that the law would reach my mind of His character and wisdom.
I learned that the law is good, made for my benefit and reflected the character of God for me to see and learn from. The law is perfect, just and cannot change. For all the law is what God is Himself in which it reflects all the attributes of Who He is.
I learned to respect this perfect God with His perfect law and began to see that the law was a reflection of His love for us. It was then that I began to understand His Love and the meaning of salvation and the cost that it became for the Godhead to save us.
Liane
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This is all very true, Sister Liane, but in the context of Paul's teaching in Romans 7 and 8 the "love" aspect of the law is not the lesson. This is important that we get the lesson right. Since the false teaching of Romans chapter seven is an important tool for Satan to contradict the gospel we need to understand this chapter just as Paul is teaching.
In Saul's case the "law" does not save, but only condemns. "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death." If we confuse this issue at this point we will miss the lesson.
The law is indeed a transcript of the character of God. But, when one is not converted they must see their condition before God. They must recognize their guilt before they have need of a Saviour. Paul explains to us that this is the function of the law to the unconverted.
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Hi Brother Richard:
You are so correct in your last post. It took a long time for this to come home to me and you were the one that brought it to life to me which so many misunderstand.
I am thankful for that phone call two years ago and the lesson that was given and I see Romans 7 far differently than I did before because of your help and willingness to teach.
God does indeed lead us to those that have come to understand His Word when perhaps we have been unwilling or unable to learn for ourselves. Sometimes words may be needed to bring light to our minds and wisdom to our souls.
It is so clear what Paul was saying to be "under the law" and so many misunderstand what that means and why. It is important to realize the message of under the law and under grace.
The law can be our friend so to speak when we are under grace, but can comdemn us when we live under sin.
We do not have to believe that we must live under the weakness of the flesh when grace is so bountyful and mercy that helps us as we walk with our God.
Liane
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Amen! :)
Paul is the one who teaches us so powerfully the power of grace. He too speaks of the holiness of the law. But for those who have not yet been broken and still see themselves alive without the law, there remains the opening of the eyes that they may see themselves undone and condemned by the broken law.
After we have given our hearts to Christ, we can say with David, "I love thy law." We then understand that we have a Saviour that can not only forgive our transgressions, but can give us power to keep the law. As we finish chapter 7 we hear that Saul's plea has been answered. He has been shown "Who" will deliver him from his body of sin and death, Jesus Christ.
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In Galatians, Chapter 3:19-26
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made, and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator....21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid; for if there had been a law given which could have given life, werily rightiousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law....24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.In Romans 7 and 8 and in Galatians 3....All these explanations are referring to the same thing. Paul is one who uses allegories and his writings are very effective to different types of people.
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Amen!
So we see that the process of conversion involves a knowledge of the law. God is showing us our sins and our inability to be "good" without help from outside of ourselves. Like the Israelites at Mt. Sinai. They said they would obey, but they did not know Jesus Christ. They needed a Saviour. Only those who see they are sick will seek a physician. We must see our need before we seek a Saviour.
Coming to Christ is not easy. We make it difficult because of our very nature, but with a knowledge of Jesus we will prevail!
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Brother Richard,
quote:
Paul explains to us that this is the function of the law to the unconverted.
Isn't it fascinating that the function of the Law is to condemn or acquit? That is why Romans 8:13 is so important to the discussion. If we live according to the flesh, that is a life of disobedience, we will die, but if through the power of the Holy Spirit we put to death disobedience done in our flesh through a obedient faith in Christ, we will surely live.
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Amen, Brother Thiele! It is very interesting that the law is able to both condemn and acquit. For those who do not see this easily read through The Investigative Judgment topic and you will see that the law is the standard that will forever condemn or forever acquit those who claim to be believers.
This does not mean that the law can save, for only the blood of Christ has power to save. But, after having accepted this power into our lives it is the law that reveals the standard by which all will be measured. Not just the outward deeds, but the inward motives and thoughts. This is discussed in the IJ topic. It is interesting to note that the law is a transcript of the character of our God.
In this topic we see the language being used is "flesh" denoting transgression of the law and "Spirit" denoting obedience to the law.
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Why is Romans 7 so important to understand correctly? Because the father of lies has perverted the truth. In the church is a teaching on Romans 7 that makes the truth of no effect. It is one of the most dangerous teachings because of its success.
Here is the false interpretation: It is taught that Romans 7 is the life of Paul after his conversion. Therefore we all have the same experience after conversion. "For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do." This verse is made an exuse for sin when there is no excuse for sin. Most in the professing Christian churches believe this lie. Therefore they believe they have eternal life when they remain dead in their sins.
A careful reading of chapters 5, 6, 7, and 8 under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit will give the Christian a correct understanding of these important verses. May God bless all who want to the know the truth that it may set them free from the power of sin.
[This message has been edited by Richard Myers (edited 08-16-2004).]
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Amen and Amen
Richard, How true....even on 3ABN I hear many evangelists preach: "There is nothing you can do or not do that can save you, you do nothing....Christ has done it all." I heard it again last night. Go on and live your life the way you want, is the impression I get.
Preparing for heaven is not an easy job especially fighting Satan constantly.
Yes, Jesus did it all, We have confessed, repented, and are now converted, "We are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." We are forgiven only "for the remission of sins that are past..." AND NOW, we must not sin to keep this converted soul full of Christ in us. "The wages of sin is death."
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Yes, it is very simple Dear Sister Ele. It is sad that such a simple teaching has become perverted.
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Quote:
“Here is the false interpretation: It is taught that Romans 7 is the life of Paul after his conversion.”
--------------------------------------------[While I have not read all posts in this thread and may be repeating something said before, here is my 2 cents worth.]
EGW here speaks of Paul in Romans 7 as being a converted, born again Christian and uses it as an example to the unconverted. As she says here, only the man who has surrendered to Christ will, “delight in the law of God”.
“I beseech you to make an unreserved surrender to God, and to make it now, just now. When you make this surrender you will have an experience entirely different from the experience that you have had for many years. Then you will be able to say with the apostle Paul, "I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ" (Eph. 3:8). "I delight in the law of God after the inward man" (Romans 7:22).” {11MR 312.3}
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In this statement, she speaks of the spiritual growth of the converted soul. She again uses Paul and his confession of Romans 7 as another example of what a truly converted Christian is to be.
“The nearer we come to Jesus, and the more clearly we discern the purity of His character, the more clearly shall we see the exceeding sinfulness of sin, and the less shall we feel like exalting ourselves. There will be a continual reaching out of the soul after God, a continual, earnest, heartbreaking confession of sin and humbling of the heart before Him. At every advance step in our Christian experience our repentance will deepen. We shall know that our sufficiency is in Christ alone and shall make the apostle's confession our own: "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing." "God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Romans 7:18; Galatians 6:14.” {AA 561}
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In this quote, she says that Christians “are carnal”.
“But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin." Romans 7:13-14. But though we are carnal, we are to reckon ourselves "dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.” {ST, October 1, 1894}
Quote:
“Therefore we all have the same experience after conversion. "For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do." This verse is made an exuse for sin when there is no excuse for sin. Most in the professing Christian churches believe this lie. Therefore they believe they have eternal life when they remain dead in their sins.”
I am confused, Brother Richard. I have always taken Romans 7 to be Paul speaking of the spiritual struggle that takes place within a converted Christian. I can not see an unconverted person having this struggle because they ignore all things spiritual.
It definitely speaks of the experience that I have had in my spiritual growth as I have battled and struggled with self. Do I believe you can continue in sin and be a Christian? I think that you know I do not in any way, “believe they have eternal life when they remain dead in their sins.”. I think my posts make that perfectly clear! I believe we must put away ALL sin if we are to enter God’s Presence. More and more I am learning to surrender to Christ. More and more I am seeing His victories in my life as He is destroying the attributes of self within me. I can not do it, but He IS doing it!
My understanding of Romans 7 is that Paul is telling us that there is not instant perfection upon conversion, that there will be a war, a battle, with self as we look at, desire and began to receive the character of Christ.
God Bless
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"Captain, my religious belief teaches me to feel as safe in battle as in bed. God has fixed the time for my death. I do not concern myself about that, but to be always ready, no matter when it may overtake me. That is the way all men should live, and then all would be equally brave"
Gen. Thomas 'Stonewall' Jackson
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Brother Cop, your posts are very clear in regards to the sinfulness of sin. You do not make excuses for it. I think this is a very good foundation for us to begin on.
There is no excuse for sin. But, Satan has stolen a march upon us and has tried to convince many that there is. Any sin reveals a separation between us and Christ. It is a blessing to understand this. We need to qualify this just a bit. We are talking about "known sin". To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not to him it is sin. And, yes those who are willfully ignorant, they are guilty also.
When we accept the fact that sin (known sin) reveals a separation between us and Christ we then will see Scripture in a different light. Romans seven is contrasted with Romans eight. In eight we are given a view of the Christian's life. In Romans seven we see the struggle to surrender. One of the reasons for the confusion is that so many are not converted and have never been born again. They view themselves as converted when they are still in the struggle to die. It is a long protracted process of wooing by the Holy Spirit.
This does not mean that after conversion there are not battles to fight and victories to win. As long as life shall last we will ever have self to subdue. But, in Christ self is subdued. In Romans seven self is alive and acting out sin. Romans eight reveals a different man.
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Brother Richard, you state: "In Romans seven we see the struggle to surrender." I do not see it as being the unregenerate man being spoken of in chapter 7. As in the quotes above from the SOP in which she refers to Paul, I see Paul speaking of his battle with self after his acceptance of Christ and being born again.
“For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do, I understand not. For what I would, that do I not. But what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me, that is in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing, for to will is present with me. But how to perform that which is good, I find not. For the good that I would, I do not; but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law that when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.” Romans 7: 14-25.
That is a description of someone in conflict with himself, someone who loves God's moral law, someone who deep down in his inner most self wants to obey God's moral law, but is pulled and pushed away from its fulfillment by sin, sin that is in him. It is the personal experience of a soul in conflict. It is a battle. It is a warfare that rages in the heart. The conflict is very real, it is very intense, it is very strong. Of that there is no mistake. In verse 24, he cries out, "O wretched man that I am." There is a wretchedness about this battle. There is a wretchedness about this conflict. And then the cry, "Who shall deliver me?" And then the declaration, "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord." But even knowing that, it concludes, "So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin."
Some people say this is a Christian being described. And some people say this is a non-Christian or unregenerate person. One side says there is too much bondage to sin for a Christian. The other says there's too much desire for good for a non-Christian. You can't be a Christian and be bound to sin and you can't be a non-Christian and desire to keep the law of God. And therein is the conflict of interpreting the passage.
Those who view this as a non-Christian say verse 14 is the key: "I am carnal, sold under sin." And so, they would say that has to be an unbeliever. And then verse 18, "For I know that in me, that is in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing, for to will is present with me but how to perform that which is good I find not." And they say that has to be a non-Christian because a person who's a Christian knows how to do what's good. Where's the evidence of the Holy Spirit's power there? And so they question the very obvious ignorance of the person in verse 18 not able to figure out how to get his results that he wants. Should one in Christ be so impotent?
And then verse 24, "O wretched man that I am," seems rather far from the promise of chapter 5 verse 1, "Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God through Jesus Christ, our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, rejoice in hope of the glory of God." And then he goes on to talk about the fact that we not only have the hope and the joy but all the benefits, how can this man be so wretched with so many benefits? How can he be carnal, sold under sin when chapter 6 verse 14 says sin shall not have dominion over you?
And then they will usually go into chapter 6 in detail. For example, chapter 6 verse 2, "How shall we that are dead, or have died, to sin live any longer in it?" Verse 6, "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." Verse 7, "For he that has died is freed from sin." Verse 11, "Reckon yourselves to have died indeed unto sin." Verse 12, "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body." Verse 17, "God be thanked that whereas you were the servants of sin, you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered." Verse 18, "Being then made free from sin..." Verse 22, "But now being made free from sin and become servants to God."
Now with all of that in chapter 6, how in the world can it be said in verse 14 of chapter 7, "I am carnal, sold under sin," is a Christian? But as quoted before from EGW, she states the born again Christian is carnal: “But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin." Romans 7:13-14. But though we are carnal, we are to reckon ourselves "dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.” {ST, October 1, 1894}.
The emphasis in chapter 6 is on the new creation, the new nature, the new identity, the new person in Christ, the redeemed man. The emphasis therefore is on the holiness of the believer. And in his new creation and in his redeemed self, he has broken sin's dominion. The emphasis in chapter 7 does not necessarily have to be the same as in chapter 6. And every Christian knows that even though he is new in Christ and sin's dominion is broken and sin no longer has mastery over him, sin is still a problem. And so whether or not you want to see a Christian in chapter 7, you've still got to see a Christian having conflict with sin even though his new creation, his new self is holy.
Its important to understand what is taught in chapter 6, that that which is recreated is the new man. And that new redeemed self is holy. But there's still going to be a conflict. And whether you see that conflict in chapter 7 or not, there is still a conflict and it is pointed out even in chapter 6. Notice chapter 6 verse 12, "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body that you should obey its lusts."
I agree with you completely that many use chapter 7 as an excuse that they can continue to sin, that Christ will 'change' them on His Return without their having to struggle and renounce their favorite sins. I have much contact and discussions with Christians of other faiths, but I have had very few ever refer to Chapter 7 as giving them an excuse to continue sinning.
What is strange to me though, is the large number of SDA's that I have heard use this chapter in that way. Just this past Sabbath, in SS, the teacher and several 'church leaders' discussed sin and quoted Romans 7. They all expressed their love for a loving Jesus who loves all sinners and would remove their desire to sin when He Returns. [It was stated that those who believed sin must be renouced and put out of a Christian's life before His Return in order to be ready to stand before God, were "fanatics".] Could it be that even though some SDA's still believe He is soon to return, others are just trying to ignore it and love sin more than they love Him?
God Bless
[This message has been edited by Cop (edited 03-06-2005).]
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Do we have a contradiction of God's Word to us? In verse 6, we are told the body of sin was destroyed and we would henceforth not serve sin, now why in verse 12 is Paul commanding us not to let it reign? We have the same problem in chapter 6 as in chapter 7. We still have to deal with the problem of the believer and sin. And in all that Paul said in chapter 6 about our new nature, and our new creation, and our new essence, he never said that from then on we wouldn't have a battle with sin. Verse 12 implies that sin could still have a reigning place, it COULD still be shouting out orders which we are submitting to. We COULD still be obeying sin. Verse 13 says, "Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin," which is to say you COULD do that. And so we have to be commanded not to do that.
The problem in chapter 7 is the same problem in chapter 6 because we have all of these statements about you've died to sin, you're dead to sin, sin has no dominion over you, your service to sin is broken, you are now servants of God and you're free from sin, you're free from sin. At the same time you have the commands to not let sin reign over you. So there are no problems found in the interpretation of chapter 7 that aren't also found in the interpretation of chapter 6.
Chapter 6:19…"I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh." When you sin, it isn't the new you…what is it? It's your flesh, your humanness. And so he says I have to remind you of these things because your flesh is still there, for as you have yielded your members to uncleanness and iniquity unto iniquity in the past, even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. And the implication again is there is...again there is you could yield your members to sin. You could yield your members to sin. Arguing that chapter 7 cannot refer to a Christian because of statements in chapter 6 is to really to misunderstand the intention of chapter 6. And I think it to be a rather weak argument.
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In regard to verse 6 and the body of sin being "destroyed", this is a mistranslation in the KJV. The correct rendering, as evidenced in newer translations, of the Greek is "rendered inoperative." It is still there and capable of regaining it's reign if we so choose.
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Bill Wennell
USDA Meat & Poultry Inspector
BiblicalTruths2000@Juno.com
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Brother Cop, my understanding of conversion is that it is a moment by moment experience. When Moses struck the Rock he needed to be reconverted. We do not believe in once saved always saved. Therefore, we in Christ do not do what we ought not to do. If we sin it is because we have let go of Jesus. If we believe this, then we see a marked difference between Romans chapter seven and Romans chapter eight. Can you see the reasoning?
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As to the battle with sin, we must always keep in mind that we do not yet have glorified bodies. The flesh is always fallen until Christ returns. But, this does not in any way mean that the Christian will yield to sin. The flesh is kept under submission to the mind that is in submission to Christ. When the mind is not yielded to Christ, then the flesh will rule. It is a law. Only Christ can give us the victory over our flesh. We are sinful, but we may continually gain the victory "if" we will abide in Christ.
Yes, there will always be temptations, but this does not mean that we will yield to them. In Christ we shall do that which we (our minds) want to do. Romans seven says we will do that which we do not want to do and we won't do that which we ought to do. This is not the life of a Christian abiding in Christ. But, it is the life of those who want to gain the victory, but do not make a full surrender. Like Judas who saw his failure, many want to change, but do not because they do not come to Jesus. They abhor their condition, but not enough to give it to Christ. It is very sad to see such suffering.
It is also sad to realize that many live a life of deception. They do not realize the victory that awaits them when they make a full surrender to Jesus. They have believed a lie and either want the things of this world more than Jesus or they do not understand the necessity of making a full and complete surrender. Too many hold onto the things of this world and thus they have no power to overcome the flesh. Only Jesus enthroned within can give us the victory over self.
Romans eight expresses this very clearly. It is the answer to the very sad condition seen in Romans seven. Paul had no idea of who it was that could help him in his helpless condition. He saw himself a slave to sin with no hope. He did not know Jesus as a Saviour, yet he did understand that he was under a death sentence because of the broken law. It was a new thought to him at this point, because he had been thinking he was great. He was a Pharisee of a Pharisee. he was high and lifted up and serving the God of heaven. He was alive without the law. Then the commandment came and he saw the reality of the law. He saw himself condemned and had no place to go. He thought Jesus and impostor and since he had no Saviour, he had no hope. The God of heaven was not giving him the victory. But, the God of heaven was listening to his prayer. "O wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death."
It is when we come to this point that God can help us. It was then that Saul was ready to see Jesus, and see Him he did.
Many today need to come the that very point in their life where they see themselves undone. They must want to obtain the victory. They must see their condition as Saul did. They must see they are condemned. Then as they turn to God asking for help they will see Jesus. They will be given a view of Christ that will burn within their hearts and they will love Jesus enough to turn from their sin. But, they must continue along that same path. They must feed upon Christ daily, moment by moment or they will fall.
Only those who are filled with the Spirit will be able to keep the law of God. When the Spirit is not within, then the flesh will rule. But when the Spirit is within, we walk in the light as He is in the light. Romans 8:1 in the King James Version tells us the truth that is so important. If you read it in the NIV you will miss the truth. But, if one keeps reading the next 14 verses even in the NIV the truth is impossible to miss if one really wants to know it
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Brother Bill, I agree with you completely and thank you for pointing this out. I sometimes forget that what I may understand (the meaning of destroyed) and believe to be well known to others, may not be true. ‘Destroyed’ in this case, does not mean to cease to exist. I have most of the ‘newer translations’, but after reading the introductions in them (most do not even claim to be a correct and true translation, but say they are interpreting the thoughts of the author…God), and that they are all based on the Roman Church’s ancient manuscripts that were known and proclaimed in the fourth century to be inaccurate, I rarely use them.
The word translated ‘destroyed’ in Romans 6:6 is translated the same in four other verses, i.e. 2 Thessalonians 2:8, “…and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:”. We know he will live again during the Second Resurrection and Hebrews 2:14, “…that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;”. We all know Satan is did not cease to exist at the death of Christ, but his power was forever destroyed. This Greek word, ‘katargeo’ means to make of none effect and is translated in other verses of the KJV as: abolish, bring to nought, deliver, do away, loose, make void, put away, put down, cease and so on. In Young's Literal Translation, we read: “this knowing, that our old man was crucified with [him], that the body of the sin may be made useless, for our no longer serving the sin;”. In Berry’s Interlinear Greek-English N.T. we read: “this knowing, that old our man was crucified with (him), that might be annulled the body of sin, that no longer be subservient we to sin”.
In verse 6, ‘the old man’- our corrupt propensities, passions, lusts, are no longer the great power in control of our life. The ‘old man’ has been expelled and put out of the life. ‘The body of sin’ is the body used by the evil power of sin, which has enslaved the entire being, and so, it works itself out through the body and its members.
Certainly Paul is not teaching that sin is dead in the believer. The fact that he goes on to discuss what the attitude and stand of the Christian should be towards sin indicates this. If sin were utterly dead, and ‘destroyed’ as we understand the word, there would be no further need for Paul to concern himself with the subject. The Christian experience and the whole of Bible teaching testify to the contrary. He is no longer the slave to sin, as is suggested by the Greek here translated in verse 6 as, “not serve”; he is dead TO sin, but sin is not dead IN him. Sin does not reign, but it remains.
God Bless…
[This message has been edited by Cop (edited 06-09-2005).]
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Brother Richard, I thank you for your comments on this subject. If I were to choose what I consider my favorite Book of Scripture, it would be Romans. I love to discuss it. I love to study it and to have my mind enlightened by the Holy Spirit as He removes the veil of darkness from my eyes.
I do not do not believe in once saved always saved and hope I have not given that impression! You state, “my understanding of conversion is that it is a moment by moment experience.” I am not sure upon what you base this. But from Scripture I do believe that we can be sure of our Salvation and should not doubt. In Romans 4 we read:
“13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed;
20He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
We can be sure of Salvation and not ‘believe once saved, always safe’ which is a lie of Satan. “Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied,” of John the Baptist in Luke 1:77, that John was: “To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,”.
I do not see that ‘when Moses struck the Rock he needed to be reconverted’. Upon what do you base this, my Brother? From my study, I see a man who was converted and surrendered to Christ, but, as we, had to battle the evil human nature. I see a man who was overcome by the nature of the ‘old man’. He was the chosen leader of his people, and thus, was held to a higher standard and responsibility by Christ.
“Moses had spoken from irritated feeling; HIS WORDS WERE AN EXPRESSION OF HUMAN PASSION rather than of holy indignation because God had been dishonored. "Hear now, ye rebels," he said. This accusation was true, but even truth is not to be spoken in passion or impatience. When God had bidden Moses to charge upon Israel their rebellion, the words had been painful to him, and hard for them to bear, yet God had sustained him in delivering the message. But when he took it upon himself to accuse them, he grieved the Spirit of God and wrought only harm to the people. His lack of patience and self-control was evident. Thus the people were given occasion to question whether his past course had been under the direction of God, and to excuse their own sins. Moses, as well as they, had offended God. His course, they said, had from the first been open to criticism and censure. They had now found the pretext which they desired for rejecting all the reproofs that God had sent them through His servant. “{PP 417}
“Had Moses and Aaron been cherishing self-esteem or indulging a passionate spirit in the face of divine warning and reproof, their guilt would have been far greater. But THEY WERE NOT CHARGED WITH WILLFUL OR DELIBERATE SIN; THEY HAD BEEN OVERCOMED BY A SUDDEN TEMPTATION, and their contrition was immediate and heartfelt. The Lord accepted their repentance, though because of the harm their sin might do among the people, He could not remit its punishment.” {PP 419}
“As he looked back upon his experience as a leader of God's people, one wrong act marred the record. If that transgression could be blotted out, he felt that he would not shrink from death. HE WAS ASSURED THAT REPENTANCE, AND FAITH IN THE PROMISED SACRIFICE, WERE ALL THAT GOD REQUIRED, and again Moses confessed his sin and implored pardon in the name of Jesus. {PP 472}
I am not trying to be argumentative, but, “Therefore, we in Christ do not do what we ought not to do. If we sin it is because we have let go of Jesus.”, sounds as if we are once saved, we are always safe! In other words, it sounds as if a true Christian will never sin. I repeat your question to me, “Can you see the reasoning?”
[I love this kind of discussion and study! Well, gotta go…God Bless!!]
[This message has been edited by Cop (edited 06-09-2005).]
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This is a very important point we are discussing my dear friend. At the heart of the matter is God's attitude towards sin. I know your attitude, but we need to take into consideration God's and what others believe.
There is no excuse for sin. The doctrine of Scripture makes this abudantly clear, but not the present teachings within the churches. There is a way opened for sin. The church teaches that the converted Christian abiding in Christ can sin. But, the Bible says otherwise.
Now, let me stop and point to Moses when he struck the Rock. The correct teaching on conversion or justification is not discouraging, but when understood correctly points to an all forgiving Saviour and our loving heavenly Father who desire to cleanse us from all sin and empower us to not sin.
In the statement you quoted regarding the contrition of Moses we see the requirement for salvation. Moses needed to repent of his sin before he could be justified in the eyes of God. It is not good enough to say that God knows he will repent or that his sin was not pre-meditated. Known sin is sin. Self was alive and this is not the Spirit of Christ. This is where Romans 8:1-14 come into play. If we will consider what they are saying and then look at Romans seven we will better understand the true Christian experience. We need not take anything out of context, but take the whole topic into consideration and then we shall see that one sin separates us from God. Or, a better way to put it is that one sin reveals a separation from God.
But, God does not cease to love us. He comes after us. He sends the Spirit to plead with the fallen sinner. In Moses case his repentance was quick and deep. This sin was a stain on Moses record, but that is not the end of the story. Moses was laid to rest, but because he repented and allowed Christ back into his heart he was raised from the grave and now is in heaven.
We must come to grips with the fact that when we have been converted we are not be able to sin and retain our justification. This is Satan's great victory in deceiving many in the church. They believe they are right in God's eyes when they sin. But, they are not. When Peter fell into the water, he needed to call out to Christ. If he did not, he would have died. We must all come face to face with this certainty. We need Jesus at each step of the way. There is no safety when we step outside of Christ. He is there, it is up to us to retain our justification by remaining connected to our Saviour.
I know that this sounds like heresy to many in "Christian" churches today, but it is the Biblical truth. It glorifies Christ, not man. It gives hope to all who will come to Him and abide in Him. Too many want eternal life without Christ. It is impossible. Our profession of faith means nothing. It is the Spirit indwelling our hearts that brings Christ into the life. Romans 8 explains that without this we do not have eternal life.
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This topic has covered a lot of ground and it is necessary to read through it so that we don't have to repeat what has already been posted. If there are points that are not understood, then quote the passage and we will address it.
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Romans 7 is the chapter in the Bible that has most references to the "law", 23 times. The chapter with the second most references to the "law" is chapter 2 in the same epistle.
Interestingly the phrase in ch 8:4, "the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled" is the very same phrase in ch 2:26 (in the greek text) where even the uncircumcised may fullfill the law in the sense of obeying it. Why can not it mean the same in Rom 8:4? Well, of course it does, because in Rom 8:7 Paul says that those who are in the flesh cannot keep the law. So we must suggest that he contrasts them to the people who live by the Sprit in v.4.
Romans 7 portraits a man that is mastered by, and thus living in the flesh. Chapter 8 portraits a man living in the Spirit. People who beleives that the Roman 7 man is converted need to explain why he is in the flesh in ch 7 when he is in the spirit in ch 8. Pauls experience in chapter 7 can be summarized by Rom 8:7
"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."
People think that Paul was converted in ch 7 because he loved God and appreciated the law. His problem was that he was married to the law instead of Christ. He experienced as a pharisee that "the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death."
Rom 7:10.
In intertestamentary times the law became elevated above that which God had ordained it be. It served as basis for salvaton (Apoc Bar 51:7), of justification (Apoc Bar 51:3) and life (4 Ezra 7:21). This erroneous view was common among the pharisees and thus Paul. But Paul still found himself spiritual dead, unrighteous and hopelessly lost in sin.
But when he found Jesus the whole situation changed:
When there was frustration in ch 7 (v.24), there is peace in ch 8 (v.6).
In ch 7 there is spiritual death (v.10), but in ch 8 there is life (v.6).
In ch 7 there is defeat (v.15), but in ch 8 there is victory (v.13)
In ch 7 he is a slave to sin (v.14), but in ch 8 he is free from sin (v.2)
In chapter 7 he acts against the law of God (v.22.23) but in ch 8 he can through the Spirit obey Gods law (v.4)
In ch 7 he is a "wretched man", but in ch 8 he is a "child of God" (v.14)
In ch 7 he is driven by his flesh (v.23), but in ch 8 he is driven by the Spirit (v.14)
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Amen!! Such a blessing to hear a simple explanation of these two chapters. It is not difficult unless one has been led astray by the false gospel. The false interpretation of Romans seven is the Devil's masterful deception that has gained a foothold in most all Christian churches.
Romans 8:1 sums up the whole matter. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. You will notice that many often quote half the verse to excuse their sins. But, the proof of the relationship is seen in the last half of the verse which so many fail to quote.
If you are reading this today and think that God will cover your sins that are unconfessed and unforsaken, you are in a great deception. to him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin. The wages of sin is death. But, Christ takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. He calls to all, "Come unto me and I will give you life."
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I have followed this discussion with great interest. I too have loved the book of Romans, and even as a teen went to the trouble of memorizing it. Perhaps I hoped that would help this untheological mind of mine to grasp its meaning, to little avail apparently, since I got a B on the post-graduate course on Romans I took at Andrews a generation ago, and was the only student required to redo the outline the teacher had required. I'm still as theologically muddled as ever, so cannot contribute to the wonderful discussion of the issues. When I read COP's letters, I thought they sounded right. And then when I read Brother Richard's, I was even more blessed. When I hear people say one cannot keep the commandments, I am in a quandary. To me, as lazy as I am, it is really quite much easier to sit peacefully on my own davenport listening to a Mozart sonata than to get up, break into my neighbour's house and steal his silver or rape his wife. I may be wrong.
But I would like to address a non-theological issue in a way I mentioned in another post. Forgive the repetition. In Brother Allen F's remarkable and illuminating post he noted: "In intertestamentary times the law became elevated above that which God had ordained it be."
It appears to me that there are two golden threads in the Hebrew Scriptures: the Messianic Promise and the Law. The priest, king and prophet all represented the messianic principle, as they were in the beginning anointed to their offices, thus being Messiahs. Their role was to interpret, apply, enhance, and safeguard the Law. But the Messianic hope in the intertestimentary period raised the suspicions of the Helenistic and later Roman rulers. This is part of the motivation for the appearance of the sects of Sadducees, who limited the application of the law to the detriment of the role of the Messiah, and the Pharisees, who dispensed with the need of the divinely appointed interpreter of the Law through Rabbinical method of interpretation. These sects allayed the fears of the emperor and permitted the Jerusalem establishment to exist within the Roman empire. This was the Law against which Paul is writing, this common, established abuse of the Law as a means of downplaying the messianic principle and accommodating to Rome.
I know this is a simplistic view that ignores the theological issues, but it is based on the major historical facts of the conditions of the Jerusalem establishment in the Roman empire of the first century. Any interpretation of writings that go back to that century must take those historical facts into consideration. It seems to me that the greater portion of Christian theology around that issue fails to do so. Refeshingly, this discussion, without mentioning the historical context as such, does not clash with it.
In sum, I would see Jesus as a conservative figure who maintained the older golden threads in balance, the law and the Messiah, and thus flew in the face of the established balance with Rome that his contemporary Judaism had made. No wonder the sermon on the mount seemed fresh to his listeners. Seen in this context, there is simply no conflict to resolve between Paul and Jesus in regard to the Law. Paul's whole point is to support the Messiah over and against the Sadducean and Pharisaic accommodating abuses of the Law. I haven't the mind to establish that theologically, but it seems clear to me as a historian of religions.
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Hi, I pretty much agree with what you are saying. I am no theologian either, but just read my Bible. When i discuss with other christians i feel that many are not aware of the major differences between phariseism and OT theology. When we are not aware of this difference it is very easy to misinterpret Paul when he deals with issues such as law and grace. Thank your sharing!
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Brother Thomas, I think Brother Allan brings up a most important aspect of this battle for truth. The "law" is the "schoolmaster" that leads us to Christ. The law is also a transcript of God's character. The law also is "holy, just, and good."
I think that when we consider the situation at the time Christ was born into this world, we must consider the fact that "the law" was not the problem, but the problem was what man had done to it. Satan had been masterful at his deception to bring reproach upon the law just as he has done today.
While there is no power in the law to save, it is still holy, just, and good. Today we see many who have swallowed Satan's lie that the law cannot be kept by sinful man. So, the law is looked upon with contempt. But, if we understood that it is Christ's desire to write it upon the table of the heart, to give us His character that we would reflect Him, we would love the law as the psalmist did.
The law has been covered over with human requirements and with Pharisaical pride. Many who profess to keep the law of God today and in the days of Israel of Old do not keep the law. They do not keep the law from the heart as is required by the law. An outward manifestation that meets with man's mind, does not meet with the requirements of the law. In order to keep the law we most do it from love for God and love for man. A selfish heart cannot keep the law of God.
When we come to a correct understanding of "the law" and its requirements, then we can appreciate the need for grace. Without a new heart, we cannot love God nor our neighbor as ourselves. The whole law hangs on these two great precepts.
Brother Thomas, your mind is striving to get this right. I can see that the lights are coming on by the concerns you have. Satan has done much to confuse the Word, but Christ has provided us with abundant light and it is shining brightly. As the garbage is swept away from the law, can you see the manner in which the law and grace are working today to prepare a people to receive Jesus at His soon coming?
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Yes, Brother Richard, your's and Allan F's find posts were most enlightening to my mind. Where I am situated the Pauline idea of the law as a schoolmaster is very much seen from the perspective of Lutheran theology, which is most succinctly condensed in the lie that the law cannot be kept, at the point of the law is to bring us to Christ for salvation.
If I understand you correctly, the law and the gospel cannot be separated, but are two inseparable strands. This is similar to what I was getting at with the idea of two golden threads in the Hebrew Scriptures: the law and the Messiah.
I brought up the situation at the time of Christ in reference to Rome, and you commented upon that. It comes to mind that the pen of inspiration makes the same point by drawing a detailed analysis of Roman and Jewish politics, to sue the word broadly, at the beginning of the book Desire of Ages.
I am very grateful for these enlightening letters.
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Myers:
Brother Thomas, I think Brother Allan brings up a most important aspect of this battle for truth. The "law" is the "schoolmaster" that leads us to Christ. The law is also a transcript of God's character. The law also is "holy, just, and good." I think that when we consider the situation at the time Christ was born into this world, we must consider the fact that "the law" was not the problem, but the problem was what man had done to it. Satan had been masterful at his deception to bring reproach upon the law just as he has done today.
While there is no power in the law to save, it is still holy, just, and good. Today we see many who have swallowed Satan's lie that the law cannot be kept by sinful man. So, the law is looked upon with contempt. But, if we understood that it is Christ's desire to write it upon the table of the heart, to give us His character that we would reflect Him, we would love the law as the psalmist did.
The law has been covered over with human requirements and with Pharisaical pride. Many who profess to keep the law of God today and in the days of Israel of Old do not keep the law. They do not keep the law from the heart as is required by the law. An outward manifestation that meets with man's mind, does not meet with the requirements of the law. In order to keep the law we most do it from love for God and love for man. A selfish heart cannot keep the law of God.
When we come to a correct understanding of "the law" and its requirements, then we can appreciate the need for grace. Without a new heart, we cannot love God nor our neighbor as ourselves. The whole law hangs on these two great precepts.
Brother Thomas, your mind is striving to get this right. I can see that the lights are coming on by the concerns you have. Satan has done much to confuse the Word, but Christ has provided us with abundant light and it is shining brightly. As the garbage is swept away from the law, can you see the manner in which the law and grace are working today to prepare a people to receive Jesus at His soon coming?
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I'm kind of skipping to the end of the book here, so I don't know if this has been answered already.
Is Romans 7 Paul's description of his actual experience, or just a hypothetical situation?
If it was his experience, was it current at the time of his writing, or merely a recounting of his past?
If it was past, was it before he was a "blameless" Pharisee or after?
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By God's grace,
Arnold M. Sy Go
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[This message has been edited by asygo (edited 03-08-2007).]
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quote:
Originally posted by Thomas M:
If I understand you correctly, the law and the gospel cannot be separated, but are two inseparable strands.
That is a very good way to put it, two inseparable strands. When we see that the law is a transcript of God's character, then we understand that the gospel and the law are indeed perfectly united in Christ.
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quote:
Originally posted by asygo:
Is Romans 7 Paul's description of his actual experience, or just a hypothetical situation?
Paul is speaking of his experience that we may know what is involved in conversion."For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death."
quote:
Originally posted by asygo:
If it was his experience, was it current at the time of his writing, or merely a recounting of his past?
He was speaking of his past experience when he could not keep the law and when he did not know who it was that would help him keep the law. And as was pointed out in the last answer, he even takes us back to when he thought he was "alive" before the depth of the law came to him.
"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death."
The law which is holy, just, and good brought to Paul (Saul) death. Did it kill him physically? No, it only revealed that he was condemned. He saw that he did not possess eternal life. A shock to a Pharisee of that day.
Not only did Paul not know how to keep the law, but he did not know Jesus Christ.
"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
quote:
Originally posted by asygo:
If it was past, was it before he was a "blameless" Pharisee or after?
Paul was a "blameless" Pharisee before he saw himself condemned by the broken law of God. In chapter seven, he is telling us about the period in his life when he had come to understand he was no longer "blameless". He was indeed condemned as he saw the the depth of the law and knew not how to keep it. What a spot to be in.
Many in the Laodicean church are in a similar situation. They have come to see that the law is indeed binding and the wages of sin is death. But, they do not know how to keep the law. They then seek an answer to this terrible dilemma. How can one keep the law of God? Many others in the church today do not have this urgent problem. They do not see themselves condemned by the broken law. They are "alive" without the law. They have been lied to as was Saul the Pharisee. Sadly, even though they don't see themselves condemned, they do not have eternal life.
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Romans Chapter Seven (part 1 of 2)<P>
7:5 "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were
by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit
unto death."<P>
When we were unconverted, sin, which is known by the law, was
done by our flesh which brings us under the condemnation of the
broken law.<P>
7:6 "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein
we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in
the oldness of the letter."<P>
Now we delivered from the bondage of the law (the law cannot
save, only condemn),being spiritually dead in that bondage (wages
of sin is death); that NOW being converted we should serve in the
(HOLY) Spirit, and not in outward appearance only (whited sepulchar).<P>
7:7 "What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid.Nay, I had
not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the
law had said, Thou shalt not covet."<P>
Shall we say the law is wrong? God forbid!!
I would not have known I was sinning and lost and condemned if it
was not for the law: I would not have known I was lusting if I did
not know the law that says, thou shalt not covet.<P>
7:8 "But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all
manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was
dead."<P> Sin (transgression of the law), now that the law is known, revealed
all manner of evil in me. Before I knew the law, I did not know sin. <P>
7:9 "For I was alive without the law once: but when the
commandment came, sin revived, and I died."<P>
I did not know I was under condemnation (death sentence) without
a knowledge of the depth of the law: but when I found out about the
depth of the law, that it reaches to the intents of the heart, then I
became guilty and saw myself spiritually dead (the law slayed me).<P>
7:10 "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to
be unto death." <P> And the commandments which are Holy and just, and given for our
good, I found to cause my spiritual death (under the condemnation
of the bronken law).<P>
Poor Saul, he is really confused. He was brought under condemnation
by the law of God and knows not how to get out from under the
death sentence. He, like most other Pharisees, prided themselves in
keeping the law, so it was quite a shock to him to find himself a law
breaker. The Holy Spirit began to convince him of his sins after he
participated in the stoning of Stephen.<P>
7:11 "For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me,
and by it slew me."<P> For breaking the commandments that I then had knowledge of, I
came under condemnation. I knew I was walking after the flesh.<P>
7:12 "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and
just, and good."<P> I see the law is good.<P>
7:13 "Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid.
But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which
is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding
sinful."<P>
Was the good law causing me to die? God forbid!!! The
commandments showed me I was under condemnation and then I
could see the great evil of breaking the commandments.<P>
7:14 "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold
under sin."<P>
We know the Ten Commandments are of God, but I am unholy, and
cannot help but sin. I am a slave to sin and cannot help myself. I
cannot stop sinning. I have no good fruit in my life. I manifest the
works of the flesh for I am carnal, of the flesh.<P>
7:15 "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not;
but what I hate, that do I."<P>
Really, I cannot do good even though I really want to. I want to quit
stealing, but I cannot. I want to love my neighbor, but I cannot. I
hate taking the Lord's name in vain, but I do it.
It is clear from this sequence so far that Paul is taking us from the point before conversion to the point just after conversion. In vs 5 we clearly see the converted state. But in vs 6 we are given the moment of conviction - whereby the lost faces a choice to either reject Christ and cling to sin -- or to accept Christ and embrace the new nature that as you say "wants to love my neighbor".
However you appear to say in the case above that the lost earnestly desire obedience to God and that in their mind they are in harmony with Law of God. I don't see Rom 3:9-13 describing the lost in that way.
in Christ,
Bob
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Let's try this in the form of a state chart --
Lost state
Romans 7
1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
Saved State
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
Lost State
5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
Saved State
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Lost State – Convicted
7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "" YOU SHALL NOT COVET.''
8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.
Rom 7
The Believer’s Sinful Nature
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
Saved State – New Nature agreed fully with God’s Law;
But Overcome by Sinful nature – in need of supernatural help to WALK in perseverance
“So no LONGER am I the one doing it”
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
That v22 point is key-- the new Creation "in the inner man" has taken place and there is a nature within that is in full agreement with the Law of God. It is because of that change that Paul can make the argument for change "NO LONGER I am the one doing it"!
23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
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Saved State – New Nature agreed fully with God’s Law;
But Overcome by Sinful nature – in need of supernatural help to WALK in perseverance
“So no LONGER am I the one doing it”
The new nature is overcome by the sinful nature. That doesn't sound like the experience of the born again Christian. Let's look at 1Jn 5:18, next time...
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The new creature has new desires. He is a new creature because God has give him a new heart. Not only does the new creature desire to do good but also has the power to do good. For this we can praise the Lord!
2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
The divine nature does not sin just like a good tree doesn't produce bad fruit. It is free from sin. The truth has set the new creature free!!
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However you appear to say in the case above that the lost earnestly desire obedience to God and that in their mind they are in harmony with Law of God. I don't see Rom 3:9-13 describing the lost in that way.
Way back at the beginning of this topic I explained.
7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present
with me."
I see a principle that even though I profess to be an Israelite, I am
not, I am evil. I do want to be a son of Abraham, but I am not
faithful as he was. I live as did Solomon when he fell.
7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:"
I love the law of God!!!
7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law
of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of
sin which is in my members."
But, I see another principle in my flesh warring against the law of
my mind, and bringing me into captivity to sin. I cannot resist sin. I cannot gain the victory over even "little" sins.
7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the
body of this death?
O wretched sinner that I am! Israel's One Great God cannot keep
me from sinning! I cannot keep myself from sinning! WHO, WHO,
WHO..... can deliver me from myself?Huh Is there not anyone that
can save me? I am condemned and lost.......
***************
What you seem to be teaching is that Saul knew how to keep the law of God, but did not. But, verse 24 clearly points out that at this time in Saul's life, he did not know Jesus as Lord and Saviour. And, Paul also very clearly points out that at this time in His life, he was was "captive" to sin (vs 23). A converted Christian is not captive to sin and Paul clearly taught that when converted he was free from this bondage.
Brother Bob, your teaching places our brethren in a place of great difficulty. According to your "gospel" one cannot tell if they are converted. It comes down to a "profession of faith", not a death to self. You are on a faulty foundation and therefore your interpretation of Scripture cannot be straight as you move forward. When one sins, you allow them to be guiltless because it is not them that sins. :( And, we have no measure as to how long one may remain unrepentant before they lose their status in regards to eternal life.
But the Words of Jesus are simple and straight forward. One must be born again of the Spirit. They must have the Spirit of they are none of His. And, Jesus says that in order to possess eternal life (to the rich young ruler) he must keep the commandments. Keeping the commandments does not save, but it reveals the condition of the heart. One must abide in Christ and therefore be dead to self. The flesh is then kept under by the mind that is under the control of Christ. Praise God!
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Saved State – New Nature agreed fully with God’s Law;
But Overcome by Sinful nature – in need of supernatural help to WALK in perseverance
“So no LONGER am I the one doing it”
The new nature is overcome by the sinful nature. That doesn't sound like the experience of the born again Christian. Let's look at 1Jn 5:18, next time...
If the lost sinner could ever claim as did Paul in Romans 7 "No longer am I the one doing it" they would have an out.
If the lost sinner could ever claim as did Paul in Romans 7 "with my Mind I AM serving the Law of God" then they could never be described by the Romans 3:8-12 text -- they would need "another".
in Christ,
Bob
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If the lost sinner could ever claim as did Paul in Romans 7 "No longer am I the one doing it" they would have an out.
How does that reconcile with 1Jn 3:6, 3:9, 5:18?
BTW, I don't think the unregenerate man can experience the war going on in Rom 7.
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The "new man" cannot experience Romans 7. Romans seven ends with conversion. Romans seven describes the conversion process that ends in conversion. It is Saul's experience at seeing himself spiritually dead in his sin. prior to the commandment coming home to his understanding, he thought he was right with God. But, the law, having no ability to save, condemned him just as he says elsewhere. The law is the schoolmaster that leads us to Christ.
Today, too many professing Christians believe they have eternal life when they do not. One of the chief teachings that deceives in this area, is the false teaching that Romans 7 is the Christian experience. It is not. It is the story of a man who thought he was alive, but found out that he was dead in his trespasses and sins. He did not know Jesus Christ. "O wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from the body of this death?" He did not know he needed a Saviour, but he came to understand that there was only evil in him, in his flesh. He was in quite a predicament. He could not save himself. He knew that he was condemned by the broken law, but he could not help himself, and no one else could help him, he thought. But, on the road to Damascus, he learned who it was that could help him. He learned that God had provided a remedy to his fatal condition.
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Originally posted by asygo:
If it was past, was it before he was a "blameless" Pharisee or after?
Paul was a "blameless" Pharisee before he saw himself condemned by the broken law of God. In chapter seven, he is telling us about the period in his life when he had come to understand he was no longer "blameless".
We are told that Paul was "blameless" in terms of outward compliance with the law.
Did Paul continue that level of outward compliance during the experience described in Rom 7? Or did the experience of learning about God's requirements make him less compliant than he was before?
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He was "alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived" and he died. He then saw himself condemned by the broken law. Was he still "blameless"? In the eyes of God he was not blameless. In the eyes of other Pharisees he might appear blameless. In the eyes of the disciples he was a murderer. In his own eyes he was no longer blameless. He saw his guilt. The "school-master" had done its work. He was now ready to see Jesus. The cry of his heart was for help! "Who will deliver me from the body of this death?"
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Romans 7:14-25: For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
That is a description of someone in conflict with himself, someone who loves God's moral law, someone who deep down in his inner most self wants to obey God's moral law, but is pulled and pushed away from its fulfillment by sin, sin that is in him. It is the experience of a soul in conflict. It is a battle. It is a warfare in the heart. The conflict is very real, it is very intense, it is very strong. It finds its summation in verse 25...or verse 24, "O wretched man that I am." There is a wretchedness about this battle. And then the cry, "Who shall deliver me?" And then the affirmation, "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord." But even knowing that, it concludes, "So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin."
Some people say this is a Christian being described. And some people say this is a non-Christian. One side says there is too much bondage to sin for a Christian. The other says there's too much desire for good for a non-Christian. You can't be a Christian and be bound to sin and you can't be a non-Christian and desire to keep the law of God. And therein is the conflict of interpreting the passage.
"For I delight in the law of God after the inward man." Does an unbeliever delight in the law of God after the inward man? You don't find such indication in the Scripture. In Romans 8:7, it says that the unregenerate person is not subject to the law of God.
In verse 25: "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord so then with the mind I myself serve the law of God." That sounds like a Christian to me for two reasons: thanking God through Jesus Christ our Lord and serving the law of God with his mind. It's a service of the heart. It's the service of the deepest part of man. The unregenerate sinner is at war with God and His Law. He hates anything that has any connection to God and refuses to be, "subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."
Look at verse 15: "For that which I do, I know not; for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I." That says that there is a battle here because the deepest truest part of this individual wants to do what is right, but something keeps him from doing it. Is that true of an unregenerate sinner, that they really long to do what is right but are prevented from doing it? Not according to Jeremiah who said the heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Look at verse 18, "For I know that in me, that is in my flesh, dwells no good thing, for to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I find not." And again it's the same idea, something deep inside me wants to do what is right.
There is no battle within the heart of the unregenerate person to do what is good. The unregenerate sinner has no desire to do that which is right and good. He does not lament that, "what I hate, that do I." But in the soul of the born again man, there is war and a continuing battle against his sinful inclinations, a desire to overcome and gain the victory over the power of sin in his life.
Verse 19: "For the good that I would, I do not; the evil which I would not, that do I." You have it in verse 21, "I find then a law that when I would do good, evil is present with me." So the heart and the soul and the mind and deep within the individual longs to do what is good. The bent is toward good. But there is an evil principle there that wars against the desire to cease sinning.
Whoever this is, he longs to do good things and finds himself doing what? Bad things. As far as I can read Romans, chapter 3, the evil person has no longing to do the will of God. "There is none good, no not one." In Romans 3 he says everything about them is bad, everything. "There is none that understands. There is none that seeketh after God." Verse 11, "Nobody seeks God's purposes, God's holy will, God's holy moral law. There is no fear of God before their eyes." They have no regard for Him or His law.
The conflict here, the tension, the battle between what Paul says I delight in, I love, I approve, I want, I long to do, and that that he actually does, I believe, can only be true in a redeemed person. I don't really think in an unregenerate person, an unredeemed person, an unsaved person that there really is much of a battle at all. We don't believe for a moment that people without God are basically really good people, who just can't seem to pull it off. We believe they're really evil people who act out the evil that's inside them.
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Good to have you back, dear brother!!
The fallen nature does not preclude one from knowing what is right and wrong. When one finds that they are under condemnation because they have broken the law, there is a desire to do what is right to escape the judgment sure to come. I man can want to do good all day long, but this does not make one a Christian. When we are separated from God, we are none of His. It is only Christ in us that makes us His. Yes, when Moses struck the Rock, he was still one of God's chosen people, and yes, Jesus still loved him, and yes, he had been converted, and yes, it was his only sin for many many years, but when he struck Christ Jesus, he was not abiding in Christ, he was aligned with Satan and doing his bidding.
Before conversion, it is even more so. Man has a conscience, but he has no power to keep the law as the poor wretched Saul in Romans 7. A false interpretation of this passage is used to excuse sin in those who say that grace cannot keep them from sinning. They say that this is the Christian experience, doing what they know is wrong and not doing what they ought to do.
The last verse of Romans 7 would be better put in the beginning of Romans 8 since it reveals how it is that a Christian can overcome sin. The whole argument today involves the truth as it is in Jesus. He is the One who keeps us from sinning. The false teachers will say that the sinner has eternal life while sinning. This keeps multitudes from Jesus. They do not see their need of a doctor because they have been told they are not sick. Sin always reveals a separation from God.
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The husband is either flesh or the spirit. Our will (the woman) can not serve the spirit until the old man is dead. Otherwise it's adultry. Once the old husband is dead, then "will" can marry the new man. How often do we have to kill the old man? Paul said "I die daily." It's really more often than that that our old man tries to revive. Paul is speaking to those who know the law; not those who don't know it. Many in the church have tried to marry another while legally united to their old man, but the flesh (that evil that is present with me vs 21) is with us until Glorification. We became sinners in Adam the moment he sinned. By the one we were made (ordained) sinners. Sinners are what we are, not just what we do. We have sinfull natures. That's why the flesh war's against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh. The body of this death is flesh vs 24. EGW says gird yourselves for a lifelong battle with self. Many get discouraged because they think they should not be having this battle with the flesh after conversion. It's this misteaching of Rom 7 that is partially to blame. Mrs. White understood what Paul was saying and I'll get some quotes for us when I have time. Read Rom 7 again with this way of looking at it and see what you think.
Romans 7
1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law ofher husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
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I purposefully left out the first four verses of Romans 7. I think it can be a topic unto itself. It is important to a discussion of the old and new covenants. So, for now, let us begin with verse 5. Brother Tim, have you read the whole thread? If so, in which verse do you first find a problem with what I have shared?
And a question for you while you are considering that....do you believe that when Jesus is in the heart, we sin? When a man is abiding in Christ, will he sin a known sin?
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Much can be learned by understanding what Scripture is particularly offense to Satan. When we see how he attempts to twist the truth, it helps us to better understand how important certain verses are. Case in point. Having attended many churches prior to becoming a Seventh-day Adventist, I became familiar with a certain verse that is very popular throughout the fallen Protestant churches. It is Romans 8:1. Now, many in our church know this verse as it has been modified because they have relied upon a Babylonian "bible", the NIV. It is not without purpose that the verse was maligned. Here is one of the favorite sayings in the evangelical churches today. "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."
To the diligent Bible student, it is readily seen that this is being used as a tool to further support the evangelical gospel which is no gospel at all. There are two great errors in the churches. First, that obedience to the law of God can save a man and second, that man has been released from obedience to the law. Both teachings are leading men to perdition. The second lie, that God does not require obedience is the liberal mantra known as the evangelical gospel. It teaches that a man is saved while sinning. There are many variations to this lie, but the essence is that grace covers sin that is unconfessed and unforsaken. Romans 8:1 in the NIV is heard often to justify the sinner while sinning. There is no condemnation because I have confessed not my sins, but Christ. He is my Saviour and therefore His blood covers my sins.
The truth of the matter is made known when reading Romans 8:1 in the King James Version. "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."[/b] This reveals who it is that is in Christ Jesus, those who are walking after His Spirit, not after the flesh.
Some may say that is the case in some churches, but not our denomination. If that was so I would not have spent the last ten years of my life in this ministry to our church. I would have been working only in the world to bring to them the knowledge of the love of God. But, until our church is grounded on the gospel truth, it is not ready to receive the multitudes waiting to come in.
This topic on Romans seven and eight was begun ten years ago. Shortly after we started it there was a brother who took exception with what had been presented. He had been deceived by the evangelical gospel in our church. This is seen in his first post almost ten years ago.
I want to comment on Romans 8:1. I think KJV translate it wrong, it should have been :” There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are “in Christ Jesus.” (see other translation)
By adding “who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit” a contradiction will arise, which is that our walking after the Spirit which saved us, our life style which saved us. IOW we are saved by our works.
Compare with this! Now we know that what things so ever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God (Why? Because all are under sin, no one is righteous…...there is none that doeth good, no, not one - Romans 3:9-12). There fore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight; for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested………even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe; for there is no difference; For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God; being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is “in Christ Jesus.” (Romans 3:19-24).
“In Christ” a believer have his freedom, freedom of sin and it condemnations. In Christ a believer have his justification and redemption, not in ‘walking after the Spirit.”
This is an example of what many in our church believe. It is the evangelical gospel that gives license to sin. It is preached from our pulpits and believed by both ministers and church members. When this is understood to be all that a man can hope for, he will never have peace, for he will always have guilt. It is only a new heart that can cleanse us of our sin.
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It is amazing that they will not see that they are giving license to walk after the flesh. If you ask them if that is what they are doing they would deny it.
It is interesting that some of the Baptists churches are ahead of our church when it comes to how they relate to Bible translations.
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If Christians understood that good fruit can only come from a good tree and bad fruit can only come from a bad tree, they would not be so deceived. Yet, these words from Jesus are not taken to heart. Bad fruit continues to come from good trees in the gospel being taught throughout Christendom.
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If Christians understood that good fruit can only come from a good tree and bad fruit can only come from a bad tree, they would not be so deceived. Yet, these words from Jesus are not taken to heart. Bad fruit continues to come from good trees in the gospel being taught throughout Christendom.
I'm sorry that I don't have time right now to read all eleven pages this morning. Hopefully I'm not repeating too much of what has already been covered on this thread.
Many, if not most, SDA's I've spoken with in Class on Sabbath mornings, declare outright or insinuate in every "subtle" way imaginable, that Christ had a distinct advantage over every man, woman, and child; because, Jesus is the Son of God.
What must be understood and internalized through the Holy Spirit, is that as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name... John 1:12 All might well contemplate the context of the fact that ...His name shall be in their foreheads. Revelation 22:4; ; AND, ...His Father's name written in their foreheads. Revelation 14:1;AND, the seal of God in their foreheads. Revelation 9:4
We must finally comprehend that Christ came to this world "in the flesh"; ...what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 THAT the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:3, 4; Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren... Hebrews 2:17
"in all things...made like unto his brethren", does not mean unlike his brethren. A good question to pose, here, is: "When was Christ...made him to be sin for us... 2 Corinthians 5:21? Was it not when he was born as a babe? Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Psalm 51:5
...many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. (see also Col. 1:27) This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds. 2 John 1:7, 9-11
Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, IN the Believer; and, with Jesus dwelling in the Christian through the...faith of Jesus (Rev. 14:12), Christ is not a ...minister of sin (Gal. 2:17)! It is thus that the Christian, as born again...cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9)
"The doctrine of Christ" is more than the fact that we have a Saviour by that name. The purpose of the Godhead is that Jesus is to be an indwelling Saviour. "Christ" also means, anointed... picked out; chosen; elected, by God. (see 1 Peter 2:9)...fulfil the word of God; 26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you,YOUR ONLY hope of glory: (Col. 1:26, 27)
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Amen, Brother Glen. You might look at this week's Sabbath School lesson and add a thought there.
Jesus says "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you." John 15:4-7. God is not a liar. This is a conditional promise that we be fully surrendered to Him. And if we are not, we are none of His. "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Romans 8:8,9.
We have a topic on Abide in Me (http://remnant-online.com/smf/index.php?topic=751.0)
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I continue to study the Book of Romans, especially in the light of chapters seven and eight.
Most who believe Romans seven is Paul's Christian experience make excuses for sin. And, a few others who think that we ought not sin, have an interesting view. They believe it is Paul talking about the battle he faces after conversion. I have given these individuals credit for being right about their gospel message because they say that God gives power to obey. I cannot speak for all who think this way, but some I have found appear to say one thing, yet do another. They do not appear to have gotten the victory over sin. I am not taking about an occasional sin, but they appear to treat sin lightly. Their emphasis is on a justification that treats sanctification matter of factly. They abhor Phariseeism and therefore have no desire to discuss the perfection of Christian character. This attitude leads me to believe that they do not understand the gospel message and that their interpretation of Romans seven is based upon their own experience. This is always a very sad situation.
In the past, I have tried to give the benefit of doubt to the possibility that they could be right, but more and more I am seeing that it cannot be. In Romans 7:18, when Paul says "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not," it is not true of his experience as a converted Christian. After his conversion, Paul understood how to perform that which is good. "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." Philippians 4:13. In verse 14, when Paul said "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin," he could not have been speaking of the converted Paul. No, he understood that to be carnally minded would reveal he was separated from God. "For to be carnally minded is death." Romans 8:6.
If we allowed these verses in Roman seven to be Paul speaking of his post conversion experience, we could say that some take their eyes off of Jesus and then they sin. How very true. I recall many times having sinned after being truly converted. We do not believe in once saved always saved, nor do we believe that once one is converted that the battle ceases. No, it continues. Let us look at a post conversion experience and see how it squares with Romans 7.
Like Moses when he struck the Rock, one sins after being converted. Can you imagine Moses saying "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not." or how about this; "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Romans 7: 7:18, 24. No, Moses instead fell on his face and repented in great sorrow. He knew who would deliver him and he knew how to keep from sinning.
Many accept Romans 7 as the Christian experience because it is their experience after baptism. They have never learned how to obey. Romans 8 is the text book along with the lessons Jesus gave while walking in our flesh upon this earth. "And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness." Romans 8:10. Listen to Paul: "if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you." Romans 8:9. Does the Spirit of God dwell in you? If so, you will not sin. Paul knew, he did not have to ask, he understood.
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I have never told you that I have appreciated your comments on Rom. 7 & 8 and have come to the conclusion some time ago that you are absolutely correct. I have always wondered about these chapters and have heard conflicting ideas. Most of the time they are avoided. It is so clear to me now. Thank you for your repetition on this subject.
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Thank you for your comments, Dorine. It is important because Romans 7 has been a stumbling block of so many in the Evangelical churches and even in our own. So many point to it as an excuse for sin. And, Romans eight is just plain ignored as being a revelation of what the Christian life is to be. How many times do we hear that if we do not have His Spirit, we are none of His? I don't ever recall hearing it. Yet so many who reject this truth love to preach "love, love, love." Such a contradiction. If we have His Spirit, then we have His love. If we do not have His Spirit, we do not have His love. We need so much to be reconciled to God every moment of every day, if there is to be any good thing in us.
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"Many, if not most, SDA's I've spoken with in Class on Sabbath mornings, declare outright or insinuate in every "subtle" way imaginable, that Christ had a distinct advantage over every man, woman, and child; because, Jesus is the Son of God."
I am just so glad that Christ had an advantage over me. Without that advantage He would be like me and sin. The contest is not that I be just like Christ but to accept what was done for me. Adam had an advantage over me. Does anyone deny that? I doubt it. Christ came as the second Adam. It is also true that Christ did come with a distinct disadvantage to Adam in that the world that Adam was created in was perfect, 4000 years after that the world was far from perfect.
If we are in the surf and about to drown, do we ask the board rider to get of his surf board to save us because he has an advantage? We gladly get on board and are happy to be saved because of the advantage that the board rider has.
Much the same with Christ; All our illustrations are also less than perfect. The point I am trying to make is that it does not matter that Christ has an advantage over me; Adam did too.
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If that is the case, what do we do with this?
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Hebrews 2:16
But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life.
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billy;
Do you believe God's faithful, saved people will be sinning when He comes again ? Do we truly believe Phil. 4:13 ? I think this is really the bottom line here.
Once again you speak about "many" and "most" people in Sabbath school. Most people who are now on the church books will be lost. I do not care to use them as criteria for what is right but you seem to think that some kind of evidence for truth.
Jesus had what some would call advantages. Why is it though that those who always toss that out there never comment on the distinct disadvantages Jesus had ? Because they wish to make excuses for sin. Jesus was tempted far above and beyond what any other human has and can be tempted. He was not only tempted to use divine power(which was at His finger tips) to prove who He was but He could not make even the smallest mistake. However, we have had the latitude to make many grevious mistakes, repent, and be saved. I think it would be good to talk about all the disadvantages Jesus had. That never gets brought up by the left in the church.
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Billie, we have topics on the Nature of Christ and the Nature of Man, please let's stay with Romans 7 and 8 here. If you have any questions on what has been presented on a particular verse, please ask. It is a good opportunity to show your understanding of the Bible. You must believe Paul was describing your experience when he was writing Romans seven. You cannot help but sin. You do that which you do not want to do and you don't do that which you ought to do. Is that you translation of the chapter? If so, please share with us how you interpret the first half of Romans 8.
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"Many, if not most, SDA's I've spoken with in Class on Sabbath mornings, declare outright or insinuate in every "subtle" way imaginable, that Christ had a distinct advantage over every man, woman, and child; because, Jesus is the Son of God."
I am just so glad that Christ had an advantage over me. Without that advantage He would be like me and sin. The contest is not that I be just like Christ but to accept what was done for me. Adam had an advantage over me. Does anyone deny that? I doubt it. Christ came as the second Adam. It is also true that Christ did come with a distinct disadvantage to Adam in that the world that Adam was created in was perfect, 4000 years after that the world was far from perfect.
If we are in the surf and about to drown, do we ask the board rider to get of his surf board to save us because he has an advantage? We gladly get on board and are happy to be saved because of the advantage that the board rider has.
Much the same with Christ; All our illustrations are also less than perfect. The point I am trying to make is that it does not matter that Christ has an advantage over me; Adam did too.
As I said before, so I'll say again: Many, if not most, SDA's I've spoken with in Class on Sabbath mornings, declare outright or insinuate in every "subtle" way imaginable, that Christ had a distinct advantage over every man, woman, and child; because, Jesus is the Son of God.
What must be understood and internalized through the Holy Spirit, is that as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name... John 1:12 All might well contemplate the context of the fact that ...His name shall be in their foreheads. Revelation 22:4[/color]; AND, ...His Father's name written in their foreheads. Revelation 14:1;AND, the seal of God in their foreheads. Revelation 9:4
We must finally comprehend that Christ came to this world "in the flesh";[/color] ...what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 THAT the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:3, 4; Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren... Hebrews 2:17
The "advantage" in the likeness of sinful flesh that Christ manifested here on earth was distinctly and exclusively the presence of His Father's Spirit within Him, just as it will manifest in the true Believer. "Christ in you" as mentioned clearly and succinctly in Colossians 1:27 is truly a mystery, and will remain so to those who are not Spiritual, except they repent and accept God's WORD, Jesus Christ to indwell them.
...as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name John 1:12
Like it or not...
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Like it our not...
Like it or not...but only IF YOU WANT, and receive, believing and living by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God; THEN, you will never lack any good thing from the hand of God. -You certainly will not continue in sin that leads only to death everlasting.
The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. Psalm 23:1
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Many point to the law of God in Romans seven as what converted Saul. The law does not convert, it convicts of sin. It is the schoolmaster that leads the sinner to Christ. Paul wrote of his experience in being convinced of sin by the commandment, but not of conversion by it.
It is grace that converts. To Paul the cross was the one object of supreme interest. Ever since he had been arrested in his career of persecution against the followers of the crucified Nazarene he had never ceased to glory in the cross. At that time there had been given him a revelation of the infinite love of God, as revealed in the death of Christ; and a marvelous transformation had been wrought in his life, bringing all his plans and purposes into harmony with heaven. From that hour he had been a new man in Christ. He knew by personal experience that when a sinner once beholds the love of the Father, as seen in the sacrifice of His Son, and yields to the divine influence, a change of heart takes place, and henceforth Christ is all and in all.
At the time of his conversion, Paul was inspired with a longing desire to help his fellow men to behold Jesus of Nazareth as the Son of the living God, mighty to transform and to save. Henceforth his life was wholly devoted to an effort to portray the love and power of the Crucified One.
When one sees that he is undone and dead in trespasses and sins, it is then that he seeks out a physician to heal his sin sick soul. In this sense the law points to Christ and His great love, grace, as the only source of help to the sinner.
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....As received in Christ... ("the law of ten commandments") works in us the purity of character that will bring joy to us through eternal ages....
Selected Messages Book 1, Page 235.01
It is essential to live by every word of God, else our old nature will constantly reassert itself. It is the Holy Spirit, the redeeming grace of truth in the soul, that makes the followers of Christ one with one another, and one with God. Advent Review and Sabbath Herald 10-12-97.07
The Holy Spirit is the breath of spiritual life in the soul. The impartation of the Spirit is the impartation of the life of Christ. It imbues the receiver with the attributes of Christ. Only those who are thus taught of God, those who possess the inward working of the Spirit, and in whose life the Christ-life is manifested, are to stand as representative men, to minister in behalf of the church. The Desire of Ages 805.03
....God showed his love for us by adopting our nature, in the person of his Son. God himself inhabited humanity, making us partakers of the divine nature, that by the incarnation and death of his only begotten Son, our adoption as heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ might be fully accomplished....The Youth’s Instructor December 16, 1897 paragraph 3
....In His person humanity, inhabited by divinity, was represented to the world.... God's Amazing Grace 14.03
CHRIST'S OVERCOMING AND OBEDIENCE IS THAT OF A TRUE HUMAN BEING. Our High Calling 48.2
Christ's life represents a perfect manhood. Just that which you may be, He was in human nature. (Letter 106, 1896) S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 5 1124..02
The only condition upon which the freedom of man is possible is that of becoming one with Christ. "The truth shall make you free;" and Christ is the truth. Sin can triumph only by enfeebling the mind, and destroying the liberty of the soul. Subjection to God is restoration to one's self,--to the true glory and dignity of man. The Desire of Ages 466.05
When the law of God is accepted by the penitent sinner as the WAY of life abundant, what was before, for the impenitent sinner "the law of sin and death" becomes, to that penitent sinner, through the Holy Spirit, "the law of life" IN Christ. The "grace" of Christ (Truth) in the soul of the penitent IS the life of Christ, the embodiment of the Law, which wrought out in the life, portrays the character of God, considered by God as the righteousness of God (see 2 Corinthians 5:21) The crucifixion of Christ, and the baptism in likeness to the death of Christ, followed by faith into resurrection into the likeness of Christ's resurrection, is subsequently followed by newness of life. Thus obedience becomes "second nature", lived by the penitent in the human nature that has been redeemed by Christ, as partaker of the divine nature. Christ thus lives in the penitent; not the penitent (Christ lives, not I). (....the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God.... Galatians 2:20) The truly penitent is dependant upon the faith of Jesus, alone, and may speak and act as if his faith were invincible, for, " It is He, not me, that lives".
....By your words and your works show that your faith is invincible.... Mind, Character, and Personality Volume 2, Page 471.03
What speech is to thought, so is Christ to the invisible Father. He is the manifestation of the Father, and is called the Word of God. God sent His Son into the world, His divinity clothed with humanity, that man might bear the image of the invisible God. He made known in His words, His character, His power and majesty, the nature and attributes of God. Divinity flashed through humanity in softening, subduing light. He was the embodiment of the law of God, which is the transcript of His character (Manuscript 77, 1899).
As Christ represented the Father, so we are to represent Christ to the world. We cannot transfer our obligation to others. God desires to make known to you what is the richness of his glory, that you may preach the mystery of salvation to those around you,—Christ in you the hope of glory.
We know that Christ did not sin because no sin was in Him; so:
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 1 John 5:18
This is the privilege of the truly penitent who sees God by faith, and truly lives. We need no longer "see through a glass, darkly."
....that which is perfect is come....that which is in part shall be done away. 1 Corinthians 13:10
....take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 2 Peter 1:19
Has the Day Star risen in our hearts? Then we will speak and move in unison, clearly portraying to a dying world a risen, indwelling Savior.
We are to be consecrated channels, through which the heavenly life is to flow to others. The Holy Spirit is to animate and pervade the whole church....Those who have been buried with Christ in baptism are to rise to newness of life, giving a living representation of the life of Christ.....Heaven’s perfection is to be your power.
Testimony Treasures Volume 3, Page 289.02
....Man is to remember that God has the ownership of all, and that his pursuits are invested with a sacredness that they did not possess before he enlisted in the army of the Lord. Every action is to be a consecrated action, for it occupies God's entrusted talent of time. Holiness unto the Lord is inscribed on all the actions of such a one, because his whole being is brought under subjection to God. S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 6 1087.06
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Amen, Glen. The law does not convert, but when a person is converted the law of God is written upon the heart. It is the fulfillment of the everlasting covenant.
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....the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance Romans 2:4
....Obedience to the commandments of God is the price of eternal life. Manuscript 45, July 26, 1900, “What Is the Chaff to Wheat?” The Upward Look 221.02
....This is the true interpretation of genuine conversion. The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.... Manuscript 45, July 26, 1900, “What Is the Chaff to Wheat?” The Upward Look 221.03
God's righteousness (His Law of Love; His goodness), embodied in Christ as manifested by His life on earth, then replicated (by God's grace, the life of Christ imparted as the presence of the Holy Spirit, manifested as God's Law of Love written upon the heart), in, by, and through the penitent sinner, meets other impenitent sinners "where they are", convicting them of sin, and prompting them to recognize their need of a power outside of themselves to truly love. This "goodness of God" is ever present, first convicting, then wooing the Impenitent, and is the Way of Life of the Penitent. God's Love (Law) is needed at every step, as His word IS Law.
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Quick question. If Romans 7 is preconversion how could Paul delight in the law of God ? It seems like this is mid converson.
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I have never heard the term, mid-conversion. Can you explain what it means? Is the person converted or not?
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It seems to me that we need to look at Romans 6, 7, and 8 to get a more complete picture. Actually, it is hard to know where to start in Romans, since Paul has a continuing theme going. But, I still think that if we are going to look at Romans 7, we need to include Romans 6.
Could someone summarize Romans 1 - 5?
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Actually, I decided to look in the SDA Bible Commentary and they have a good summary there of chapters 1 - 5 of Romans. This should give us a good springboard into Romans 6.
A. The doctrine of justification by faith, 1:16 to 5:21.
1. Righteousness attained by faith, 1:16, 17.
2. The universal need of righteousness, 1:18 to 3:20.
a. The failure of the Gentiles, 1:18–32.
b. The failure of the Jews, 2:1 to 3:20.
3. Righteousness provided in Christ, 3:21–31.
4. Righteousness by faith an Old Testament doctrine, 4:1–25.
5. The blessed effects of justification, 5:1–11.
6. The effects of justification contrasted with the results of Adam’s fall, 5:12–21.
Nichol, Francis D., The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, (Washington, D.C.: Review and Herald Publishing Association) 1978.
So, in Romans 1 - 5, Paul deals with Justification by faith - how my past sins are forgiven.
I did not look at the summary for chapters 6 - 8, though I did notice that they are grouped together and deal with sanctification by faith. I agree with that over all summary, but I would like to look at these three chapters in depth.
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You are so very right, dear sister! Romans six is intimately tied into Romans seven and eight. It does not allow for the false teaching of a converted Christian in seven. It is very pointed and is in perfect harmony with chapter eight and the rest of the Bible.
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Quick question. If Romans 7 is preconversion how could Paul delight in the law of God ? It seems like this is mid converson.
....not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts.... Romans 2:13-15
Before his conversion, Saul was not a Gentile, but a Jew; however, because of the darkness of his mind, Saul was carnal; in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were (exposed) by the law, did work in (his) members to bring forth fruit unto death. Romans 7:5 Saul, converted, later known as Paul, ....earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day. Acts 23:1
With all our profession to know God, all (we) contemporary Christians stand in great peril; for we yet presume upon the grace of God when we think we may continue in sin.
....the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools... Romans 1:18-22
....God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Romans 12:3
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.... Malachi 4:5
....there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah? 1 Kings 19:9, 13
What about it; are we truly men of the hour? "What doest (we) here...."? How well, or are we, resisting sin today, during this Anti-typical Day of Atonement? Are we experiencing in our daily walk, today, that "advantage" Christ had while here on earth? Do we possess, and does His Spirit possess, us?
Of His own life the Saviour said: “I have kept My Father’s commandments.” “The Father hath not left Me alone; for I do always those things that please Him.” John 15:10; 8:29. As Jesus was in human nature, so God means His followers to be. In His strength we are to live the life of purity and nobility which the Saviour lived. 8T 289.03
He who cannot resist temptation, with every facility which has been placed within his reach, is not registered in the books of heaven as a man. The Lord never places men in positions so trying that it is beyond their power to withstand evil. Divine power is ever ready to protect and strengthen him who has been made a partaker of the divine nature. Christian Temperance and Bible Hygiene, Page 22.01
In this time of well-nigh universal apostasy, God calls upon His messengers to proclaim His law in the spirit and power of Elias. As John the Baptist, in preparing a people for Christ’s first advent, called their attention to the Ten Commandments, so we are to give, with no uncertain sound, the message: “Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come.” With the earnestness that characterized Elijah the prophet and John the Baptist, we are to strive to prepare the way for Christ’s second advent.
The Southern Work 3-21-1905
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Yes, Glen, we have in the professing Christian Churches of today, men and women who do not understand the gospel message. They do not know the love of God and His justice. But, there is coming a message that will either draw them to Christ or forever cause them to leave God's church. The message will be similar to what John the Baptist preached, as much as many cannot bear to hear it: "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bing forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:
3:12 Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." Matthew 3:7-12.
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Romans 6, 7, and 8 go together and speak of the Christian life of sanctification. Romans 1 - 5 dealt with being justified, having our past sins forgiven. Romans 6 talks about the beginning of the life of sanctification. The thing is, though, that we have to die daily. Paul indicates in Galatians 2:20 that he is crucified with Christ, I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.. In 1 Corinthians 15:31 he indicates that he dies daily, I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
Also, we know that sanctification is the work of a lifetime. Why? Because as my relationship with Jesus strengthens, I see more and more just how much hold my carnal self has on me. Romans 7 is not the response of someone who is unconverted, but of someone who compares themselves to the holy, just, and good commandment and realizes how far they fall short.
They know, beyond shadow of doubt that the law will not save them - verses 1 - 4. They are no longer married to the law, because the old man is dead. The old man is the belief that there is salvation from the law or in some form apart from Jesus. They have been raised to a new life by the power of God, the same power that raised Christ from the grave. That old man is gone, and now the new man lives free from the law of sin and death. However, the new man is alive in a carnal physical body. The only way that I can continue to keep sin out of my life is to continually serve the law of God with my mind, even though I live in a sinful body and will continue to do so until Jesus comes.
However, in Christ Jesus, there is no condemnation and no yielding to sin. Temptation is not sin. The fact that I live is a sinful body that is geared toward sinning is not sin. Yielding to temptation is sin.
Romans 7 is the battle that the Christian must go through continually to fight the good fight. We can never say, "I have arrived. My sinful nature is no longer a problem for me." We can cry, O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? And we must answer, I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
I recognize that the sinful nature that I have drags me down and would lead me into sin. But I claim the victory through Jesus Christ my Lord and do not serve or give in to the law of flesh. In other words, I am governed by my choice to serve God. I am not governed by my carnal nature or by my natural desires, the desires of the flesh.
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I recognize that the sinful nature that I have drags me down and would lead me into sin. But I claim the victory through Jesus Christ my Lord and do not serve or give in to the law of flesh. In other words, I am governed by my choice to serve God. I am not governed by my carnal nature or by my natural desires, the desires of the flesh.
Amen, in other words you are not a slave to the law of sin and death which is in your members, nor do you do the things you do not want to do. And, you are obedient to the things which you know you ought to do. You are filled with the Holy Spirit and walk after the Spirit, so you have been set free from the law of sin and death. Praise God!!
Let's take a look at the life of Paul as shared from his past experience when he was Saul. He tells us much in Romans seven.
7:5 "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were
by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit
unto death."
When we were unconverted, sin, which is known by the law, was
done by our flesh which brings us under the condemnation of the
broken law.
7:6 "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein
we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in
the oldness of the letter."
Now we delivered from the bondage of the law (the law cannot
save, only condemn),being spiritually dead in that bondage (wages
of sin is death); that NOW being converted we should serve in the
(HOLY) Spirit, and not in outward appearance only (whited sepulchar).
7:7 "What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid.Nay, I had
not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the
law had said, Thou shalt not covet."
Shall we say the law is wrong? God forbid!!
I would not have known I was sinning and lost and condemned if it
was not for the law: I would not have known I was lusting if I did
not know the law that says, thou shalt not covet.
7:8 "But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all
manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was
dead."
Sin (transgression of the law), now that the law is known, revealed
all manner of evil in me. Before I knew the law, I did not know sin.
7:9 "For I was alive without the law once: but when the
commandment came, sin revived, and I died."
I did not know I was under condemnation (death sentence) without
a knowledge of the depth of the law: but when I found out about the
depth of the law, that it reaches to the intents of the heart, then I
became guilty and saw myself spiritually dead (the law slayed me).
7:10 "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to
be unto death."
And the commandments which are Holy and just, and given for our
good, I found to cause my spiritual death (under the condemnation
of the bronken law).
Poor Saul, he is really confused. He was brought under condemnation
by the law of God and knows not how to get out from under the
death sentence. He, like most other Pharisees, prided themselves in
keeping the law, so it was quite a shock to him to find himself a law
breaker. The Holy Spirit began to convince him of his sins after he
participated in the stoning of Stephen.
7:11 "For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me,
and by it slew me."
For breaking the commandments that I then had knowledge of, I
came under condemnation. I knew I was walking after the flesh.
7:12 "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and
just, and good."
I see the law is good.
7:13 "Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid.
But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which
is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding
sinful."
Was the good law causing me to die? God forbid!!! The
commandments showed me I was under condemnation and then I
could see the great evil of breaking the commandments.
7:14 "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold
under sin."
We know the Ten Commandments are of God, but I am unholy, and
cannot help but sin. I am a slave to sin and cannot help myself. I
cannot stop sinning. I have no good fruit in my life. I manifest the
works of the flesh for I am carnal, of the flesh.
7:15 "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not;
but what I hate, that do I."
Really, I cannot do good even though I really want to. I want to quit
stealing, but I cannot. I want to love my neighbor, but I cannot. I
hate taking the Lord's name in vain, but I do it.
Paul was not converted, but he was learning of his need of a Saviour. Where are we today? Do we find ourselves in this situation, not being able to quit sinning? Not knowing how to walk in the Spirit? There is a solution to the problem. Paul will reveal the solution as we continue listening to his testimony.
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Are we all together so far? Do we see that Paul is sharing his experience of how it was that he saw himself as a condemned Pharisee? That the law of God revealed he was condemned?
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Are we all together so far? Do we see that Paul is sharing his experience of how it was that he saw himself as a condemned Pharisee? That the law of God revealed he was condemned?
No. Sorry.
Saul did not love the law. He hated the law because no matter how much he did to keep the law, he couldn't and didn't and was not happy. He even went so far as to persecute Christians, but he still did not love the law.
The experience of Romans 7, as I understand it, is the experience of the Christian who has been baptized. That is why Romans 7 comes after Romans 6. That is why I pointed out that we have to die daily. My hatred of sin and love for my Savior cause me to submit my life to Jesus each and every day. Romans 7:16, 17, 18 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
It does not matter how complete my conversion was at the time of my baptism. That conversion (recognizing my need of my Savior and submitting my will to Him) was then. I need to recognize my need of Him and submit to Him each and every day. I am not in a once saved - always saved condition. Sanctification is a series of justifications - forgiveness for my past sins and a decision not to continue in sin.
I am still living in a sinful body and will be until Jesus comes. The only way that I can live a perfect life is to be in Him, to realize that how to perform that which is good is not in me, but that it comes from Him. Romans 7:22-25 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
This battle between the law of flesh and the law of God that is in my mind is not going to stop until Jesus comes. We go down a dangerous path when we want to say that the battle is over, that the battle that Paul is talking about here is that of an unconverted man. Down that path you find the "Holy Flesh" people, those who say that they are saved and whatever they do is holy, just, and good, because the old man of sin is dead and, therefore, whatever they do certainly is not sin.
Don't forget that Romans 8 comes after Romans 7, just like Romans 7 comes after Romans 6. In Romans 8 Paul continues the discussion. He points out that There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. I, until Jesus comes, have to make a choice every day (or more often) as to whether I am going to walk after the Spirit, doing the things of the Spirit, or after the flesh, doing the things of the flesh. Continuing in Romans 8 Paul entreats them and us to continue walking in the Spirit. He shares with us the advantages and disadvantages. There is only one thing that can separate me from the love of God, a love that is powerful enough to give His Son for me and to save me, and that thing is me. I can choose not to walk with the Spirit.
We are seeing this happen to many people, many trees whose fruit over the years gave evidence that they were good trees, but in the last few months and years, there have been changes. I am not willing to say that these people were never converted, that they never walked in newness of life. I am willing to say that at some point they chose to walk not after the Spirit, but after the flesh.
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Carla, I agree with you in regards to the gospel. That is the most important subject. Sadly, the mis-teaching of Romans seven is used to pervert the power of grace of which you speak.
If we go back to the verses I quoted so far, can you point out my error?
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Richard,
I went back to where this got restarted (sort of) on October 26, 2009. You posted about Romans 8:1 and I agree with what you said. I read all the comments forward from there.
On January 11, 2011, you said If Christians understood that good fruit can only come from a good tree and bad fruit can only come from a bad tree, they would not be so deceived. Yet, these words from Jesus are not taken to heart. Bad fruit continues to come from good trees in the gospel being taught throughout Christendom.
I agree with the part that I colored, but the last sentence contradicts that. We can't have bad fruit coming from good trees, can we?
On April 13, 2012, you said Most who believe Romans seven is Paul's Christian experience make excuses for sin. {Good thing I didn't read this before I made my comments! - This is my comment and was not a part of your original comment!} And, a few others who think that we ought not sin, have an interesting view. They believe it is Paul talking about the battle he faces after conversion. I have given these individuals credit for being right about their gospel message because they say that God gives power to obey. I cannot speak for all who think this way, but some I have found appear to say one thing, yet do another. They do not appear to have gotten the victory over sin. I am not talking about an occasional sin, but they appear to treat sin lightly. Their emphasis is on a justification that treats sanctification matter-of-factly. They abhor Pharisee-ism and therefore have no desire to discuss the perfection of Christian character. This attitude leads me to believe that they do not understand the gospel message and that their interpretation of Romans seven is based upon their own experience. This is always a very sad situation.
In the past, I have tried to give the benefit of doubt to the possibility that they could be right, but more and more I am seeing that it cannot be. In Romans 7:18, when Paul says, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not," it is not true of his experience as a converted Christian.
This is where I disagree. And let me be quick to add that I firmly believe that we, as members of Christ's family, must be found perfect before Him.
Paul did, as you stated further down on April 13th, indicate I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. He understood very clearly that without Christ his carnal nature would take over again. Glen quoted from the Advent Review and Sabbath Herald 10-12-97.07 It is essential to live by every word of God, else our old nature will constantly reassert itself. It is the Holy Spirit, the redeeming grace of truth in the soul, that makes the followers of Christ one with one another, and one with God.
This is why I believe that Romans 7 is describing the life of a converted Christian, one who is dead to the law as a means of salvation and chooses to walk after the Spirit, but one who is still living in his carnal body. I agree with everything you wrote today up until the paragraph that begins "Poor Saul, he is really confused."
Romans 7 is not a statement of confusion. It is a statement of fact. A converted Christian does have two natures: carnal (corruptible) and spiritual. Like I said before, it is not until Jesus comes that we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1 Corinthians 15:51-53. We have to choose daily to overcome the corruptible nature, knowing and believing that we are able to since in Christ all things are possible and God gives the power to become sons of God to those who receive Him and believe on His name.
As you have stated, Romans 8 is not a chapter of cheap grace. It is a chapter indicating that we can choose to walk in the Spirit and not after the flesh. Romans 8:13 indicates that it will be a struggle, but well worth it, For if you live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Romans 6 - 8 speak of hope, of living a sanctified (holy, perfect) life through the power of the Spirit. They also indicate very clearly that this life of sanctification is not an easy life. We need to be crucified with Christ daily, on-going. We need to fight the good fight of faith, so that at the end of our lives, whether it is when Jesus comes or before, we can say, with Paul, 2 timothy 4: 7, 8 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
I am so sorry this is so long!
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Richard,
I went back to where this got restarted (sort of) on October 26, 2009. You posted about Romans 8:1 and I agree with what you said. I read all the comments forward from there.
On January 11, 2011, you said If Christians understood that good fruit can only come from a good tree and bad fruit can only come from a bad tree, they would not be so deceived. Yet, these words from Jesus are not taken to heart. Bad fruit continues to come from good trees in the gospel being taught throughout Christendom.
I agree with the part that I colored, but the last sentence contradicts that. We can't have bad fruit coming from good trees, can we?
No, we can't. Let me rephrase my statement. The false "gospel" being taught throughout Christendom teaches that bad fruit comes from good trees.
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I am still at a loss to understand where you believe I erred in my post where I commented on verses five through fifteen.
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In the first verses of Romans 7, Paul speaks in the past tense, as of what occurred in his past. But starting at verse 14 on to the end of the chapter, he speaks in the present tense, of what is taking place in his spiritual life at that time. As a born again child of God, he is in battle against the sinful inclinations and habits of his carnal flesh.
EGW here speaks of Paul in Romans 7 as being a converted, born again Christian and uses it as an example to the unconverted. As she says here, only the man who has surrendered to Christ will, “delight in the law of God”.
“I beseech you to make an unreserved surrender to God, and to make it now, just now. When you make this surrender you will have an experience entirely different from the experience that you have had for many years. Then you will be able to say with the apostle Paul, "I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ" "I delight in the law of God after the inward man" (Romans 7:22).” {11MR 312.3}
In this statement, she speaks of the spiritual growth of the converted soul. She again uses Paul and his confession of Romans 7 as another example of what a truly converted Christian is to be.
“The nearer we come to Jesus, and the more clearly we discern the purity of His character, the more clearly shall we see the exceeding sinfulness of sin, and the less shall we feel like exalting ourselves. There will be a continual reaching out of the soul after God, a continual, earnest, heartbreaking confession of sin and humbling of the heart before Him. At every advance step in our Christian experience our repentance will deepen. We shall know that our sufficiency is in Christ alone and shall make the apostle's confession our own: "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing." "God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Romans 7:18; Galatians 6:14.” {AA 561}
In this quote, she says that Christians “are carnal”.
“But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin." Romans 7:13-14. But though we are carnal, we are to reckon ourselves "dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.” {ST, October 1, 1894}
I have always taken Romans 7 to be Paul speaking of the spiritual struggle that takes place within a converted Christian. I can not see an unconverted person having this struggle because they ignore all things spiritual and have no desire to battle against sin in their lives.
It definitely speaks of the experience that I have had in my spiritual growth as I have battled and struggled with self. Do I believe you can continue in sin and be a Christian? I think that you know I do not in any way, believe a person can continue in knowing willful sin and remain a child of God. I believe we must put away ALL sin if we are to enter God’s Presence. More and more I am learning to surrender to Christ. More and more I am seeing His victories in my life as He is destroying the attributes of self within me. I can not do it, but He IS doing it!
My understanding of Romans 7 is that Paul is telling us that there is not instant perfection upon conversion (as some are teaching in our churches today), but that there will be a war, a battle with self as we observe Christ, as we begin to desire a closer walk with Him, as we long to be like Him, and as we began to receive the character of Christ; that we must, "...die daily" to sin in our lives and gain the victory in order to dwell with Him.
God Bless
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Amen!
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Cop, are you saying that verse 15 describes the converted Christian?
7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
I would have to disagree. If I do that which I know is wrong, I am not converted. Christ is not in me.
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A converted person is not a perfect person, otherwise Jesus would have come already. My goal is perfection, here and now, before Jesus comes, but there are times when I do that which I hate.
King David was a converted person as a youth. Did he go back and forth from being converted to being unconverted? No, there were times he sinned. But that did not change him into an unconverted person.
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King David was a converted person as a youth. Did he go back and forth from being converted to being unconverted? No, there were times he sinned. But that did not change him into an unconverted person.
So a converted person remains converted while sinning? How do you understand the following text?
Luk_6:43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
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This entire article is a very good read.
When souls are converted, their salvation is not yet accomplished. They then have the race to run. An arduous struggle is before them, to do what?--To "fight the good fight of faith," to "press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." There is no release in this warfare; the battle is life-long, and must be carried forward with determination and energy proportionate to the value of the object to be attained, which is eternal life. Immense interests are here involved. We are made partakers of Christ's sacrifice here in this life, and if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end, we are assured that we shall be partakers of all the benefits of the future, immortal life.-{RH August 25, 1891 Par.2}
Maybe this will help.
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King David was a converted person as a youth. Did he go back and forth from being converted to being unconverted? No, there were times he sinned. But that did not change him into an unconverted person.
So a converted person remains converted while sinning? How do you understand the following text?
Luk_6:43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
A person may not be able to tell the exact time or place, or trace all the chain of circumstances in the process of conversion; but this does not prove him to be unconverted. Christ said to Nicodemus, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is everyone that is born of the Spirit." John 3:8. Like the wind, which is invisible, yet the effects of which are plainly seen and felt, is the Spirit of God in its work upon the human heart. That regenerating power, which no human eye can see, begets a new life in the soul; it creates a new being in the image of God. While the work of the Spirit is silent and imperceptible, its effects are manifest. If the heart has been renewed by the Spirit of God, the life will bear witness to the fact. While we cannot do anything to change our hearts or to bring ourselves into harmony with God; while we must not trust at all to ourselves or our good works, our lives will reveal whether the grace of God is dwelling within us. A change will be seen in the character, the habits, the pursuits. The contrast will be clear and decided between what they have been and what they are. The character is revealed, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts. {Signs of the Times , March 27, 1884 par. 12}
An occasional misdeed does not mean that a person is unconverted. It means that the person is still living in this sinful world and is still waging the war against Satan.
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There are times when some who say they believe in being saved from sin will argue that Romans 7 is the Christian experience. They then try to make it fit. While I have believed some of these who profess this faith, I try to explain to them that while their understanding may be correct in regards to the gospel, most who believe Romans 7 is the Christian experience believe just what our sister Carla believes, that one is saved in sin. That one does not need to be rejustified after sinning. This is the common teaching in the fallen churches and is the predominate teaching within our church also.
The statement you quote, Carla, says character, not salvation. The two do not have the same definition, but it is one of the chief arguments used when attempting to defeat the gospel of grace. The power of grace is to transform the life. When one is abiding in Christ, He is filled with the Holy Spirit. He will not be tempted beyond what he can bear, unless he lets go of Jesus. Then, if we have not His Spirit we are none of His. When believing as you do, when do you cross the line? When do you not have eternal life? Can you tell? Is there something in the Bible that tells you when you have life and when you don't? How an you tell when you are not abiding in Christ? How long can you go without Jesus and still retain your justification for salvation?
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There are times when some who say they believe in being saved from sin will argue that Romans 7 is the Christian experience. They then try to make it fit. While I have believed some of these who profess this faith, I try to explain to them that while their understanding may be correct in regards to the gospel, most who believe Romans 7 is the Christian experience believe just what our sister Carla believes, that one is saved in sin. That one does not need to be rejustified after sinning. This is the common teaching in the fallen churches and is the predominate teaching within our church also.
The statement you quote, Carla, says character, not salvation. The two do not have the same definition, but it is one of the chief arguments used when attempting to defeat the gospel of grace. The power of grace is to transform the life. When one is abiding in Christ, He is filled with the Holy Spirit. He will not be tempted beyond what he can bear, unless he lets go of Jesus. Then, if we have not His Spirit we are none of His. When believing as you do, when do you cross the line? When do you not have eternal life? Can you tell? Is there something in the Bible that tells you when you have life and when you don't? How an you tell when you are not abiding in Christ? How long can you go without Jesus and still retain your justification for salvation?
I do not believe that one is saved in sin.
Please don't put words in my mouth!
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Do you believe one is saved while sinning?
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Do you believe one is saved while sinning?
No.
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Of course, she doesn't.
Let's look at this again:
Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
At the beginning of this chapter, Paul lays a little groundwork previously described in this thread. Then, he begins to explain how he discovered what sin is. He was sorely convicted! Up until that time he was a self-described "blameless" pharisee. But the law showed him he was carnal, sold under sin. He is battling sin because he is convicted. The carnal mind is at emnity against God. This is a man convicted by the Holy Spirit. Being a good Pharisee, he respects the law. And with new eyes he sees himself wretched as compared to the law he acknowledges is holy, just and good. It is at that moment he realizes he is spiritually dead. ("when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.") The chapter is about the battle prior to conversion.
Continuing, how would a good pharisee respond to this discovery? They would legalistically work their way back into compliance with the law - outwardly. Poor Paul. Then, he explains how he has no power to overcome, no power to perform acts of righteousness. He could not keep the law in his own power. Then we get to verse 24 with his infamous question. "Who will deliver me?" Verse 25 gives the answer - only through Christ Jesus.
It is not enough to perceive the loving-kindness of God, to see the benevolence, the fatherly tenderness, of His character. It is not enough to discern the wisdom and justice of His law, to see that it is founded upon the eternal principle of love. Paul the apostle saw all this when he exclaimed, "I consent unto the law that it is good." "The law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." But he added, in the bitterness of his soul-anguish and despair, "I am carnal, sold under sin." Romans 7:16, 12, 14. He longed for the purity, the righteousness, to which in himself he was powerless to attain, and cried out, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death?" Romans 7:24, margin. Such is the cry that has gone up from burdened hearts in all lands and in all ages. To all, there is but one answer, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. {SC 19.1}
Here are a few more quotes from Inspiration:
Our God is a jealous God. He will not be trifled with. Those who make straight paths for their feet must confess their sins. Then God's wisdom will overrule their mistakes for their own good and for the good of his people. He will give them the heavenly anointing, and they will see that his hand is leading his people in the right way. They will see how dangerous was the path upon which they entered when they allowed Satan to control them. {RH, June 3, 1902 par. 5}
It was very humiliating for Saul to learn that all the time he had thought he was doing God service, he had been persecuting Christ, using his power against the truth. The Saviour revealed himself to Saul, and the Pharisee was filled with abhorrence of himself and his work. He was made physically blind by the glory of him whom in the past he had blasphemed, but it was that he might have spiritual sight. During the days and nights of his blindness, he had time for reflection, and he no longer saw himself righteous but sinful, his thoughts, words, and actions, condemned by the law. The thought of his zeal in persecuting God's people filled him with bitter remorse. Hopeless and helpless, he cast himself on Jesus as the only one who could pardon him, and clothe him with righteousness. {RH, June 3, 1902 par. 6}
My brethren, some of you have been doing as Saul did,--despising the messages God has sent for the salvation of his people. You have used your capabilities to make God's work of none effect. You need to repent and be forgiven. Unless you have this experience, you cannot be saved. {RH, June 3, 1902 par. 7}
It was a hard struggle for Paul--heretofore able to say of himself, as far as outward acts were concerned, as "touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless"--to see himself a transgressor, all his supposed goodness swept away. It was a hard struggle for him to give up his supposed righteousness, and cast himself for salvation on the One he had despised. But he yielded to the convictions of the Spirit. The far-reaching claims of the law of God took hold of his life, reaching to the thoughts and emotions of his sin-corrupted heart. With eyes anointed by the grace of God, he saw the mistakes of his life. From a proud Pharisee, who thought himself justified by his good works, he was changed to a humble suppliant for mercy. The tongue, once so ready to blaspheme the name of Christ, became eloquent in sounding the praises of him who had called him out of darkness into his marvelous light. {RH, June 3, 1902 par. 8}
If the sinner or the backslider settles himself in sin, the light of heaven may flash about him to no purpose, as it did about Saul when the bewitching power of the world's deception was upon him. Unless the human agent inclines his will to do the will of God, as finally Saul did, the light will shine in vain, and a thousand-fold more light and evidence would do no good. God knows when the sinner has sufficient evidence, and says to such, "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them." "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." {ST, February 12, 1894 par. 6}
Paul had a terrible awakening when the light from heaven flashed upon him, and a voice said to him, "Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?" Paul answered, "Who art thou, Lord?" And Christ said, "I am Jesus whom thou persecutest; it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks." And the Lord said, "Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do." The Lord always gives the human agent his work to do. Paul was to work in compliance with the divine command. If Saul had said, "Lord, I am not in the least inclined to follow your directions in working out my salvation," then, should the Lord have showered upon him a light tenfold as bright, it would have been useless. It is man's part to cooperate with the divine. Here is where the conflict is to be sternest, hardest, and most fierce--in yielding the will and way to God's will and way, relying upon the gracious influences which God has exerted upon the human soul throughout all the life. The man must do the work of inclining. "For it is God that worketh in you both to will and to do." The character of the actions will testify what has been the nature of the resolve. The doing was not in accordance with feeling and natural inclination, but in harmony with the will of the Father in heaven. Follow and obey the leadings of the Holy Spirit; obey not the voice of the deceiver, which is in harmony with the unsanctified will, but obey the impulse God has given. This is what the heavenly intelligences are constantly working to have us do,--the will of our Father which is in heaven. {ST, February 12, 1894 par. 7}
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"For it is God that worketh in you both to will and to do."
Paul describes his inability to "do" in Chapter 7. It is only through Christ Jesus that he can.
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Is a person unconverted until he reaches a point of being ready for translation?
If a person is steadily growing in Christ and being chiseled and shaped by God but still not perfect and while driving home becomes angry at another driver who cuts him off and before having opportunity to repent is killed in a head on collision is the person in an unconverted state and lost?
Has every saved person who has died reached translation status in terms victory over all sin ? If not did they die unconverted ?
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Translation is not conversion. The thief on the cross was not translated. The perfection that one must attain to in order to be translated is reaching a state where he will never sin again. There are many who are laid to rest to save their souls. This is to say that if they lived, not only would they sin again, but they would turn away and by lost.
This has nothing to do with who has the heart. What you and Carla have stated is that one may have life when separated from Jesus. That is impossible. We must have Christ to have life. If we do not have His Spirit, we do not have life. What we are presenting, you are arguing against. We are teaching that the sinner has no power without Christ. And if we have Christ, we have power to resist all known sin. The glory in this gospel message goes to God, not man.
In your human wisdom, cp, you present a tradition that has taken hold in many churches. You present an example that would contradict Scripture in that you give life to one who is separated from God. And, you present another option that is not Biblical either. You would end one's probation when God would keep it open. You neglect to believe that God is in control of all that happens in His universe. He does not make all things happen, but nothing happens that He does not allow to happen. I think you understand that the only reason you are alive today is because He has protected you when Satan would have killed you. God gives to man a period of probation in which we are to learn of Him. We are to make a choice to serve Him or to continue to serve self. In your example, you only gave two choices, but there are more. The two choices you gave both are antagonistic to Bible truth. God is a God of grace and justice. Neither are sacrificed in His government, instead He sacrificed His Son that both grace and justice would be revealed.
God would not allow the faithful Christian to perish without opportunity to repent. Your example makes God appear as arbitrary which He is not. Or, the other choice is to save one without repentance which would be to immortalize sin. The wages of one sin is death. But, your teaching gives life to one who sins just one sin. Here is what God has to say on this subject:
Again, When a righteous [man] doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous [man], that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul." Ezekiel 3:20, 21.
One verse does not make up God's truth. Ezekiel understood as did John. John was the last of the apostles to live and he had to meet the lies that had come into the Christian Church. Here is what he had to say about sin. "And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." 1 John 3:3-10.
The truth is beautiful. When taken in context, not only does John express the truth about sin, but he explain why it is that the converted Christian does not sin, it is because he is born of God's Spirit. Jesus put it this way "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." John 3:6,7. And, as I stated before, if we have not His Spirit, we are none of His.
Carla and cp, we know you love God and want to keep His commandments. We are not judging your experience. But, we must be faithful to present the truth of the power of God's grace to keep us from sinning. We must help all to see that sin is a hateful thing, for it hurts God and others as well as us. There is no excuse for sin. When we sin, we need to repent of it. We need to see that sin is a result of separation from God. When we see this, then we will see our need of Jesus at all times. We then realize why it is that we sin, we have taken our eyes off of Jesus. We are no longer abiding in Him and He in us. Then we will understand that because He loves us, He does not forsake us, but is standing at the door of the heart knocking, wanting to come back in.
Many believe they are rich and increased with goods, they believe thy have life when in fact they do not. Therefore, they do not listen for that still small voice which is pleading for entrance. Sin reveals a separation. When we realize this, then we will fall at the foot of the cross and ask for Jesus to take our hearts for we cannot give them. It is His love, His grace that transforms the life.
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Carla and cp, we know you love God and want to keep His commandments. We are not judging your experience. But, we must be faithful to present the truth of the power of God's grace to keep us from sinning. We must help all to see that sin is a hateful thing, for it hurts God and others as well as us. There is no excuse for sin. When we sin, we need to repent of it. We need to see that sin is a result of separation from God. When we see this, then we will see our need of Jesus at all times. We then realize why it is that we sin, we have taken our eyes off of Jesus. We are no longer abiding in Him and He in us. Then we will understand that because He loves us, He does not forsake us, but is standing at the door of the heart knocking, wanting to come back in.
Many believe they are rich and increased with goods, they believe thy have life when in fact they do not. Therefore, they do not listen for that still small voice which is pleading for entrance. Sin reveals a separation. When we realize this, then we will fall at the foot of the cross and ask for Jesus to take our hearts for we cannot give them. It is His love, His grace that transforms the life.
Yes, I, as a converted Christian, need to repent when I sin. I am not un-converted because I sin. I took my eyes off of Jesus and now I need to come repentant. I don't need to be converted again. I need my past (recent past) sins forgiven and I need to go forward in Christ knowing that He IS able to keep me from falling.
I would postulate that since your conversion some years ago you have sinned. At that point were you unconverted? Am I wrong in this postulation?
Oh, yes, we need to be faithful to present the truth of the power of God's grace to keep us from sinning. I encourage my class members to walk out the door knowing that in Him they can walk in the light and free from sin. But if we, like you are saying, indicate that we have no sin then we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8. But, if we admit, and confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9.
John continues, My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. Yes. That is my goal, today and every day! AND if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 1 John 2:1 And I am saved by FAITH in God's grace to forgive me when I fail Him. That does NOT make me unconverted.
God will have a people who perfectly represent Him, here on this earth, when He comes. It is my heart's desire, by the power of God, to be in that group.
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Yes, I, as a converted Christian, need to repent when I sin. I am not un-converted because I sin. I took my eyes off of Jesus and now I need to come repentant. I don't need to be converted again.
You appear to be saying you can serve two masters at the same time. When we sin, are we serving Christ? Are we filled with His Spirit? No. We are serving Satan. Do you disagree? If you do, then you are saying that with Jesus abiding in me, I sin. I say that is impossible. The Bible says it is impossible. "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
I need my past (recent past) sins forgiven and I need to go forward in Christ knowing that He IS able to keep me from falling.
Does His promise fail, that he will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you can bear? No. His promises never fail. We need to understand why we sin.
I would postulate that since your conversion some years ago you have sinned. At that point were you unconverted? Am I wrong in this postulation?
You are right, but what has that to do with the Bible truth? Nothing.
Oh, yes, we need to be faithful to present the truth of the power of God's grace to keep us from sinning. I encourage my class members to walk out the door knowing that in Him they can walk in the light and free from sin. But if we, like you are saying, indicate that we have no sin then we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8. But, if we admit, and confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9.
You have confused me with what you believe. To free from sin? What does that mean? Does it mean to not sin? If so, you then want me to believe that to be free from sin does not mean we have no sin. And that to be cleansed from all unrighteousness does not mean we have no sin. Please explain so we don't misunderstand you.
John continues, My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. Yes. That is my goal, today and every day! AND if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 1 John 2:1
And what happens when you have no advocate? When Jesus leaves the sanctuary? What will you then do with your sins that you say you still have?
And I am saved by FAITH in God's grace to forgive me when I fail Him. That does NOT make me unconverted.
To be honest with you, Carla, I must be converted daily. I am not sure why you find it so difficult to believe we must be reconverted daily, and also when we sin. How often have you been converted? It sounds like only once. This is a species of "once saved always saved". Let me give you an example that may make you feel better. Jesus walked into the upper room and found His disciples full of self. They were unconverted. Each was vying for the highest place. None would wash each other's feet, nor would they wash the feet of Jesus. They had lost their connection with Christ. They were in need of being reconverted. Is this true? When they left that room, were they then converted?
God will have a people who perfectly represent Him, here on this earth, when He comes. It is my heart's desire, by the power of God, to be in that group.
Amen! I believe you. But, more important than being in that group who have no sin, is what we do today. Today, while probation lingers, we must understand that most are unconverted. And, some who have been converted are wandering in and out of conversion. This is why there are so many perplexities in the church. Most have been buried alive. And, because they have not understood what conversion is, they believe they are rich and increased with goods, but know not that we as a people are miserable, poor, wretched, and blind.
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Richard;
It is interesting that I have meerly asked two questions for clarification and another would decide to know my whole theological position. My thinking has been misrepresented so many times in your one post that I will not take time correcting it all.
Do you believe that while a personal is growing in Christ gaining the victory daily over sin that if he misteps/sins before he reaches the high standard preparatory to translation that he is unconverted and therefore lost ?
It sounds like you believe that there is a rollercoster saved/ lost/ saved /lost condition of those who are growing in Christ daily. Is this what you believe?
You said " I would end someone's probation when God keeps it open?" Where did you get such an idea ? You are worrying me.
I asked two questions and you came back with "you "you" "you" "you" "you." You just did the same with the previous poster and another corrected you. Please consider what you are doing.
At least we agree that we must be converted and reconverted daily. Sanctification and conversion is a process. We are not unconverted because during the process we have not fully attained yet.
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Some may think that because we must be converted and reconverted daily that this necessarily means we are sinning daily. Not so. I stop at the stop sign down on the corner every day. That does not mean that because I need to stop there every day that I have refused to do so one day. The analogy is not perfect but they seldom are.
As we are growing in wisdom and knowledge we are changing daily through the working of the Holy Spirit. In order to do that we must continue along the path of sanctification. This is what it means to be converted daily.
I'm not sure why this is a point of contention. If we are growing in Christ daily and putting away sin, if we are being renewed daily, converted and reconverted daily, a blip here or there along that journey previous to perfection ought not cause us to be discouraged and lose hope. Our relationship with Christ is not destroyed because we stumble once along the path. It may be weakened but it is not gone.
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I'm not sure why this is a point of contention. If we are growing in Christ daily and putting away sin, if we are being renewed daily, converted and reconverted daily, a blip here or there along that journey previous to perfection ought not cause us to be discouraged and lose hope. Our relationship with Christ is not destroyed because we stumble once along the path. It may be weakened but it is not gone.
I have never come close to suggesting that one ought to be discouraged when they sin, especially if it is a little "blip". The point of contention is a most important one. Both you and Carla have stated very clearly that when one sins he retains his justification, that means he has eternal life when he is sinning. Now, if I misunderstood you, then please correct my understanding. When Moses, after a life of faithfulness struck the rock, he was not in a converted state. He was serving Satan, not Christ. He did not retain his justification. He did not have eternal life, he was separated from God. And because of his sin, being a great sin, he had to die. But, because he had repented, he was justified and raised from the grave and taken to heaven.
Our relationship with Christ is not destroyed because we stumble once along the path. It may be weakened but it is not gone.
Yes, this is called character and is the intent of the statement quoted by Carla about one misdeed. But, character is not salvation. What you have said has much truth in it. When Moses sinned, it was out of character for him. That does not mean that he was serving God when he sinned, he was not. But, it was his character to turn to God. So, when he heard the still small voice speaking to him, that he has hurt Jesus, what did he do? He turned back to Jesus. He repented and was rejustified. Now, cp, most are not like Moses with one little blip. Sadly, many who have been converted have a lot of not so little blips. So, unless they understand that they do not possess eternal life when sinning, they will not develop the character that you are speaking of. The "little sins" are seen as the Christian experience. "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I." No, that is not the experience of a converted Christian. Read Romans eight. That is the experience of a converted Christian.
8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
This experience is not the experience described in Romans 7.
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Do you believe that while a personal is growing in Christ gaining the victory daily over sin that if he misteps/sins before he reaches the high standard preparatory to translation that he is unconverted and therefore lost ?
Translation has nothing to do with this conversation. There have only been two people translated that we know of. We are discussing conversion and eternal life. You ask of when one sins, if he is unconverted. You know what I have said. One does not sin when he is connected to Christ, when he is converted. Sin is a revelation of separation from God and none have eternal life when they are separated from God. When one sins he is serving Satan and cannot therefore be serving Christ. It is a very simple Christian doctrine. We all know the Scripture.
It sounds like you believe that there is a rollercoster saved/ lost/ saved /lost condition of those who are growing in Christ daily. Is this what you believe?
That sounds like you are describing your experience. I have never said it is a roller coaster experience. Matter of fact, you just got through saying that ONE little blip does not mean one is unconverted. Now you are saying we are talking about a continual process of sinning and repenting. You seem have said that when one is growing in Christ daily they are sinning, repenting, sinning, repenting, sinning, repenting. Is that what you believe? And if one is on this roller coaster ride as you describe, what is there spiritual state all the time. It sounds like you would give them life even though it is not One little blip? I do not want to say what you do not believe, but that appears to be what you are saying. What did you mean by roller coaster if not a life of sin and repentance?
You said "I would end someone's probation when God keeps it open?" Where did you get such an idea ? You are worrying me.
It was your example to say that one is saved when he is sinning.
If a person is steadily growing in Christ and being chiseled and shaped by God but still not perfect and while driving home becomes angry at another driver who cuts him off and before having opportunity to repent is killed in a head on collision is the person in an unconverted state and lost?
This is a common teaching to support what you believe, that a person can sin and still be converted. To make it appear that this is true the example you gave it used. You only give two results if one has been a faithful Christian and one day gets angry and sins. The two results are 1. he is eternally lost. 2. he is saved in his sin. Neither of which are true. If you believe this is the only result when someone sins and has not fully rejected God, that he can die, then you are saying that God would not keep the man from dying. I believe He does all the time. You made it appear that the man could die when he did one little sin after a life of faithfulness. We as a people believe in God granting to sinful man a period of probation in which temporal life is granted that one may choose to serve God instead of self and Satan. If we really believe this, then it is up to God as to when a man can die. God keeps our heart beating moment by moment, day by day. Satan would have killed me long ago, if God had not kept him from dong so. It is an easy matter for God to keep the man from dying who had become angry and sinned. Hope this helps you to see the principle involved.
At least we agree that we must be converted and reconverted daily. Sanctification and conversion is a process. We are not unconverted because during the process we have not fully attained yet.
No, we are not unconverted because we have not fully attained. Sin reveals a lack of conversion. When one sins he is unconverted. You seem to be always wanting to reach a state of translation, but God did not bring the thief on the cross to that state. He brought the man to a full surrender where his heart was cleansed, his motives were pure and holy. That is not the same as having attained to a position where one would be translated. Jim shared the words of Jesus about sin. Do you think it possible to get bad fruit (sin) from a good tree? Jesus said it is not possible. There is no excuse for sin. Let us not make any and say that when we abide in Christ, we may sin. "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." The truth is simple when it comes to the foundation of our faith.
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Richard you proposed to think what my Experience with God is and it was a cheap shot. If I did that with you I would say that you sound like you are ready were ready for translation when you were converted and are waiting for the rest of us to get it right. I know that talking about transaltion troubles you. I bring up that topic because that is the condition God's people must be in before and when probation closes. Ypu have indicated that God will let no one die before probation closes until they reach a point where they have attained a state when sin even in a single thought is their experience 100%. Do you think Martin Luther reached that standard before he died ? Somehow I doubt it. God did not keep him alive.
I do not believe there is anyone who when converted instantaneously never sinned again even in a single thought. Is that your experience ? Therefore the progress through life has been several steps forward and occasionally a step back. We learn from failures as well as success. Otherwise you are declaring that Justification alone is all there is and that sinnless sanctification takes place at justification and we have eccentially arrived then.
You have said that if a person ever sins he at that point is unconverted and lost and God would necessarily keep him alive until he could repent. Did God do that with Samson ? To say that God is going to keep you alive until you get it right is interesting. Once you were converted was there ever a mistake/ sin in your life after that ? Did you repent ? If so then you experienced a roller coaster experience of victory and falling. Sanctification is not a perfect growth without ever a stuble along the way. Ultimately God's people will reach what He has called them to be and will not sin even by a single thought.
You seem to indicate that I am not talking victory over sin. I am simply saying that a relationship with God does not crash and burn because as we are growing we may stubble along the way. One deed does not a realtionship make neither is it gone because someone faulters along the way.
I think if you would spend more time gaining the victory and maintaining the victory over sin than you do thinking you know everyone elses experience and hairsplitting in these areas there would not be people driven from the forum because you think they/we are promoting sin.
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Here are a few questions I have contemplated through the years regarding our subject at hand. I ask them not to be contentious, but to reasonably ask, based upon all we know the Bible says of whom we are in Christ Jesus:
>>Are we more than conquerors? Yes, we are – Romans 8:37.
>>Are we accepted in the Beloved? Yes, we are – Ephesians 1:16.
>>Have we been delivered from the law of sin and death that Satan is determined to make us slaves to? Yes, we have been – Romans 8:2.
>>Who can do all things through Christ who strengthens me? We can – Philippians 4:13.
All of this is ours through the powerful grace of Christ Jesus. Anything stating the opposite cannot be of Him. Consider the following:
What are the characteristics of a converted Christian who dies daily, who is continually abiding and growing in Christ, and who is delivered, nay redeemed from the law of sin and death? Let’s do some comparisons of a few verses in Romans with those found elsewhere in the Bible to see who the converted Christian is, and is that what is described in Romans 7.
• Romans 7:14 says: Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Is that a characteristic of a Christian, everything we know a Christian to be? No. Carnal, sold under sin is outside of Christ.
Conversely, review these contrasting verses:
1Timothy 1:9 says: 1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, etc.
1Corinthians 2:16 But we have the mind of Christ.
Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Rom 8:6 & 7 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
• Romans 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Contrast the following verses:
Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Matthew 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
• Romans 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Contrast the following verses:
1Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Romans 8:7-10 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
- Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth...
Luke 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
2Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
Ephesians 3:17 - 21 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end.
- Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
The comparison of just these few verses is stark. There are so many more verses that could be added. It is something to consider.
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I believe we are talking about absolute victory over sin. Not just because we are covered by grace but because through the power of Christ we cease to sin. I think we agree on all points in that arena.
Where the disagreement seems to be is regarding one's condition while he is growing in Christ during the sanctification process.
To say that God keeps people alive until they have repented and then lays them to rest before they can sin again is legalism. It is not victory over sin. That is like saying a person has a problem with pornography, for instance. He repents and before he can turn on the computer again God takes his life away to save him. That is a legalistic technicality. God is interested in the heart and the trend of the life. Of course the trend of the life will not be good enough when there is no longer One to mediate on behalf of the people.
We are seen as promoting cheap grace. What is MY concern? That a false theology breaks the back of those growing in Christ because they are in a saving relationship one day and lost the next because they have not yet attained what God will bring them to, that is, if they do not become discouraged and throw in the towel. We are not to toy with sin. Neither ought we break the back of someone who is struggling in their walk with God and quench their hope. It is also a concern to me when we think we read the hearts and Chrisitian experience of our brethren. Is that not sin ?
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Richard you proposed to think what my Experience with God is and it was a cheap shot. If I did that with you I would say that you sound like you are ready were ready for translation when you were converted and are waiting for the rest of us to get it right. I know that talking about transaltion troubles you. I bring up that topic because that is the condition God's people must be in before and when probation closes. Ypu have indicated that God will let no one die before probation closes until they reach a point where they have attained a state when sin even in a single thought is their experience 100%. Do you think Martin Luther reached that standard before he died ? Somehow I doubt it. God did not keep him alive.
cp, I am sorry that you took my comment in that manner. I do not know what you experience is. I said it sounded like, not that it was. I was only expressing what you were leading us to believe, that those who are growing daily in Christ are having a roller coaster experience. I did not say that. It was you who made the statement: "It sounds like you believe that there is a rollercoster saved/ lost/ saved /lost condition of those who are growing in Christ daily." When you look at the life of Moses, he did not have a roller coaster experience. But, he did fall just before his death. When he was angry and proud, you would say it was just a "blip" and it was. But, a man converted and full of the Spirit of God does not manifest this selfishness seen in Moses when he struck the Rock. Moses is in heaven, but he was not ready for translation.
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If I did that with you I would say that you sound like you are ready were ready for translation when you were converted and are waiting for the rest of us to get it right. I know that talking about transaltion troubles you. I bring up that topic because that is the condition God's people must be in before and when probation closes.
I am happy to talk about translation, but it has nothing to do with our discussion. Only two men have been translated that we know of. We are talking about conversion, not translation.
Ypu have indicated that God will let no one die before probation closes until they reach a point where they have attained a state when sin even in a single thought is their experience 100%. Do you think Martin Luther reached that standard before he died ? Somehow I doubt it. God did not keep him alive.
I don't know what you mean when you say "even in a single thought is their experience 100%." I have not said that. I said that the thief on the cross will be in heaven. That he had repented of all his sins before he died. You have made the statements about him needing to be ready for translation to enter heaven. At least that seems what you want. I am not saying one must be ready for translation to be converted. I said that if one sins, he is not converted. You are making this to be something it is not. You want to give life to one who is outside of Christ. That cannot be. Because one must be abiding in Christ to be converted, does not mean they are ready for translation. You are making some faulty assumptions.
I do not believe there is anyone who when converted instantaneously never sinned again even in a single thought.
I don't believe that either. You again are making assumptions that are not true. If you reread what I have said, you will not find that statement.
Is that your experience ? Therefore the progress through life has been several steps forward and occasionally a step back. We learn from failures as well as success. Otherwise you are declaring that Justification alone is all there is and that sinnless sanctification takes place at justification and we have eccentially arrived then.
No, that is not what I said, nor what I believe.
You have said that if a person ever sins he at that point is unconverted and lost and God would necessarily keep him alive until he could repent.
Let's clarify this so that we will not be confused. I said that if a person sins, it reveals a separation from God. This indicates that the person needs to be reconverted. Just like we need to be converted every day. A person separated from God does not have life. He is therefore in a lost state at that moment. Just as a person who had never been converted is in a lost condition. That does not mean he cannot be saved. I said that God gives to man a period of probation, temporal life, time to accept the sacrifice of Christ. God wants more for us and the world than just my salvation. He therefore, unlike the thief on the cross, gives us more than conversion. He want to reveal Himself to the world through His people. Therefore, he will teach His people to be more like Him. This is called sanctification the work of a lifetime. It does not mean that one cannot go to heaven today if they are converted and die. It means that God wants more for us and leaves us here that others might be saved.
Did God do that with Samson ? To say that God is going to keep you alive until you get it right is interesting. Once you were converted was there ever a mistake/ sin in your life after that ? Did you repent ? If so then you experienced a roller coaster experience of victory and falling.
It is not interesting, it is truth. Do you disagree? Unlike you, cp, I am not offended by the thought that after I was converted, I had to learn my dependence upon Christ, so like Peter, I fell into the water. The difference is not only that I had that experience, but I came to know that when I fell, I did so because I was not looking at Jesus. I was not converted, I was full of self. Yes, I was indeed converted when I became a Christian, but because the truth was not being widely taught, I had to learn what it meant to be converted. I did not make excuses for my sin. I wanted to know how to stop sinning and now I can tell you. It is only by the power of God that one can resist temptation. We must be found abiding in Christ and He in us. If we are not connected to Christ, we cannot resist the smallest sin. Do you agree? If so, then why do we sin? Because Christ is not in us. And if Christ is not in us, then we do not possess eternal life. This is not hard to follow cp. Stay with me. If we have Christ, we have life. If we do not have Christ, we do not have life. It is through the Holy Spirit that Christ lives in us. Do you agree? Then if we do not have His Spirit, we do not have life. Do you agree?
Sanctification is not a perfect growth without ever a stuble along the way. Ultimately God's people will reach what He has called them to be and will not sin even by a single thought.
Are you speaking about the thief on the cross and the Christian that dies today? Is that to be their experience also?
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To say that God keeps people alive until they have repented and then lays them to rest before they can sin again is legalism. It is not victory over sin. That is like saying a person has a problem with pornography, for instance. He repents and before he can turn on the computer again God takes his life away to save him. That is a legalistic technicality.
You misunderstand what true repentance is, cp. When one is in a converted state, they have truly repented. God looks upon the heart. No one is going to be laid in the grave to save their soul if they have not true repentance. You seem to be unfamiliar with the reality that God does in fact lay some in the grave to save their souls. You are arguing with Scripture, not with me. But, again, God only does this for those who hearts are pure and holy, those who are in a converted state, not those who profess to be Christians, or those who have fallen and only profess repentance. I hope this helps to clarify what I have stated and that it is Biblical, not legalism.
God is interested in the heart and the trend of the life. Of course the trend of the life will not be good enough when there is no longer One to mediate on behalf of the people.
God looks upon the heart. Amen. And when the heart is defiled by sin, you would give the person life. Let me ask another question that may help you, cp. Because the trend of the life has been good, is that a guarantee that the person will repent if he sins? And if it is not, then why do you give the person eternal life when he sins? At what point will you agree that he does not have life?
We are seen as promoting cheap grace.
Cheap grace is saying that grace covers a known sin. That is precisely why I am spending time on this. Cheap grace says that when I do that which I know is wrong that grace covers my sin. That I am in a saved condition when I sin. I do not believe in grace covering a known sin. That is what you and Carla have said. That when one sins, they do not lose their justification. That is what I understand cheap grace to be.
What is MY concern? That a false theology breaks the back of those growing in Christ because they are in a saving relationship one day and lost the next because they have not yet attained what God will bring them to, that is, if they do not become discouraged and throw in the towel. We are not to toy with sin. Neither ought we break the back of someone who is struggling in their walk with God and quench their hope.
That is a good motive for wanting to teach the truth. That does not make your understanding correct. Why would someone be discouraged by knowing that they need Jesus at all times to be saved? Jesus holds the power and Jesus stands at the door knocking. Why not let Him in? It is Christ that has the power. This is precisely why this discussion is so important. You want to discourage someone, let them believe they are saved when they are not. Leave them in a Romans seven experience. Let continue saying "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I, For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do." This is discouraging when one finds out that sin brings condemnation. One sin brings condemnation. Condemnation is death which is the opposite of life. Those who are under condemnation do not have eternal life. Listen to Paul "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." When I sin, I am not walking after the Spirit, but after flesh. When the man who has been walking in the Spirit takes his eyes off of Christ and then views pornography, or fornicates, the trend of his life may be good, but when he walks in the flesh it is because the Holy Spirit no longer indwells his heart. He is now serving Satan and is under condemnation. He is no longer in a converted state.
By telling someone that they do not have life when they sin, does not quench their hope. It was a false hope they had to believe that they had life when walking in the flesh. Christ came to give life, we can have faith that Jesus will save us if we will study for ourselves. If we will give our hearts to Him fully. He has promised us this experience. He has promised us that He will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we can bear. But, if one does not see it necessary to cease from sin, then why worry about this promise that is broken. If is very sad to see people struggling with sin when Jesus says that He will keep us from sin. Hopelessness comes from not understanding that the power is in Christ, not in us. Until we see our need of Jesus continually, we shall continue to sin. That is what is hopeless. We do not want to leave those we love in that deception. Rather that what I say, here is what the Bible says "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:8,9. It is very narrow, but then we are told that the road to heaven is narrow and few will enter therein.
Just one quick comment that will encourage all as they seek to please God. When we understand that God sent His Son to rescue us, will better appreciate that it was an infinite price that was paid that we might have a period of probation to learn of the plan of salvation, and to be transformed by it. Jesus does not come today, that all who can be saved, will be saved. This not a message of discouragement, but one of great hope. God is on our side and working with us while we were yet sinners. Amen!!
It is also a concern to me when we think we read the hearts and Chrisitian experience of our brethren. Is that not sin ?
Amen! That is sin and it reveals a separation from Christ. It is not the Spirit of Jesus that would cause one to believe he can know the heart of another. We may know that someone is outside of Christ when they manifest the works of the flesh, but that does not mean they will not repent tomorrow. We cannot know the motive nor where the heart is. It may be on the verge of true repentance.
cp, I have tried to address each point you have made. It would be a blessing for all if you would try to do the same. Look back over my posts and those of others and try to answer some of the questions asked of you. I am sure that we can come into unity, for I know that you love God and want to please Him.
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You still misunderstand my point because you are so concerned with countering error that you do not see that it is truth you are countering. Maybe more clarification will help you through this.
I have never said that grace covers sin not repented of. Repentance is sorrow for sin, a desire to stop sinning, every intention to do so, and a reaching out to God for deliverance. I think you are splitting hairs so finely that all you can see a postion that uses your exact wording.
What does it mean to be converted ? Does it mean that the heart is changed. Remember that we are talking about the heart because God is after the heart. Conversion is a condition of the heart. Because someone may stumble does not mean, necessarily that their heart is not right with God. It means that they have taken their eyes off the mark and temptation over took them. It sounds like what you are saying is that if someone who joins the church and is getting victory over appetite stumbles and eats a Snickers candy bar that he is unconverted and his heart is not right with God. I entirely disagree. It does not mean that at all, necessarily. It means that he gave into a carnal propensity and needs to ask for forgiveness, repent and strive to separate from all things harmful. That is assuming he realizes that he has sinned by eating junk food. Because he sucumbed to appetite on this occassion does not mean he now loves Satan and is unconverted and lost.
I am not suggesting that we tell people its ok to sin and they can be saved by continuing in sin. Neither would I ever bruse a person by telling them that they are now unconverted and therefore lost. This leads a new convert to worry from one moment to the next as to if they are converted/saved, or unconverted lost.
Have you seen me defend sin on this forum as people have come on and promoted contemporary music? On the OF'fil forum I defended against abortion, WO, women wearing men's clothing, a non vegan diet, use of alcohol, meat, and animal products, contemporary music etc.etc.etc..
I speak out against lowering standards and call sin by its right name. If I believe it is ok to sin there is not reason to defend against any of that.
I believe it is biblical and safe to understand that we must be reconverted every day and that is true wherever we are in our walk with God. It is counter productive to have the saved/lost saved/lost mindset.
It is the way we approach this that is important. People being preoccupied from moment to moment with whether they are saved or lost and thinking they are unconverted because they stumble on the upward path takes focus off of Christ and puts it on us. To do that is an assurance of failure.
Perhaps we are approaching this from two opposite danger zones. You apparently think I am excusing sin and I see you as crushing hope by taking focus off of Christ and placing it on a preoccupation regarding ones salvation.
I believe we ought to do alot of personal inspection but stop short of self condemnation while we are growing more like Christ daily.
Perhaps I am misunderstanding your position but I know you are mine.
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Perhaps I am misunderstanding your position but I know you are mine.
No, I don't think so. I think I have been very clear in presenting Scripture and the need to have Jesus at all times in order to have salvation. To be separated from Jesus is to be in need of a new conversion. You understand and have rejected this doctrine strongly. I understand very well what you and Carla have been teaching. I will say it again and you correct me if I am wrong. You believe when a person sins a known sin, he may still be in a converted state. In other words, you and Carla agree with Jack Sequiera that the "monstrous teaching in the Seventh-day Adventist Church is that when one sins, he must be re-justified."
I appreciate your thoughts, cp, on not wanting to crush the hope of those who are sinning. But, the knowledge of the truth has not crushed my hopes, nor anyone that I know who understands we need Jesus in the heart in order to be in a converted state. To the contrary. We then understand the problem and can claim the promises of the One who gave all for us. It was a great day when I understood what the problem was in my life and how to go about fixing it. Jesus is the answer. Grace is more than a word, it is the transforming power. If you go back and count the number of times I have used the words God, Jesus, and Christ, you will see that this message does not move the sinner away from Christ, but points him to Christ as our only hope. And, it is not good enough to talk about Him, we need Him in the heart. If we do not have Jesus in the heart, we do not possess power to resist sin and do not have life. It is a simple gospel that gives honor and glory to God, not man.
You still misunderstand my point because you are so concerned with countering error that you do not see that it is truth you are countering. Maybe more clarification will help you through this.
No, cp, I have been presenting truth. You need to go back and take a look at all the Bible verses being presented by Jim, Sybil and myself. You are not addressing them. I have asked you to try and address the questions asked of you. It would be good to share where you disagree with the Scripture presented and why. You have presented tradition and "feelings", but not Bible truth.
I have never said that grace covers sin not repented of.
I know that at times my memory fails me, but when working with Bible students, not often. Here is what you said.
If a person is steadily growing in Christ and being chiseled and shaped by God but still not perfect and while driving home becomes angry at another driver who cuts him off and before having opportunity to repent is killed in a head on collision is the person in an unconverted state and lost?
Here you clearly state that one dies without repentance. If God is going to forgive this sin, is it not because of grace that He does it? The wages of sin is death. One sin, not two or three. So, by saying that one does not lose his justification when he sins, you must offer a reason that the sinner does not lose eternal at that time. The only thing that I could imagine you saying is that the sacrifice of Christ covers the sin. But, you say now that you don't believe this, that grace does not cover the sin not yet repented of. Why then would the sinner have life if grace does not cover it? On what basis can you say, from Scripture that the one who sins has life, if not for grace?
I think I will let the rest of your post go without comment until you answer some of these questions, cp. I don't see that you can answer them and remain in harmony with Scripture. But, there is always more than we can see. Maybe there is some power besides grace that you believe forgives sin. Maybe there is something special that covers sins that are not yet repented of. But, I have never seen it in the Bible. I keep asking for help from you in regards to my understanding of Bible verses. Human wisdom will always fail us, but the Word of God will never. Thank you for trying to help us better understand where you see we err, from Scripture.
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The longer we go the more tangled up you make this. Part of your confusion is because I can ask one question and you write a book on what I supposedly stated. As long as you are not dealing with facts but fabrications or what you suppose I am saying there is no sensible dialog. Perhaps it would help if we shortened everything down and each asked a single question at a time and not move on until that has been answered. Please restrain the temptation to divert into what you think my experience is or what you think I say unless I truly say it. That is just an attempt to discredit rather than prove a point with reasonable dialog.
When a person has been baptized and is growing steadily in Christ, when is he converted relative to reaching a sinnless state defined as never sinning again even by a single thought ? You have never been clear on whether conversion is a process or not.
I will be happy to answer one of your questions at a time but not a whole page of questions at one time. I don't have time for that and it makes for a rats nest of posts, replies, cutting and pasteing. I am not retired and have two children to home school, people to meet canvassing, and many other duties.
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In the mean time ,what does it profit to say that a person who is growing in Christ but stumbles along the way is unconverted and therefore lost ?
The truth is that none are fully converted until their characters are perfected and character perfection is the work of a lifetime.
Conversion is a daily advancement but it is not sinlessness until sinlessness is attained. Until that happens one is still being converted as long as he is growing, learning and advancing. That does not mean there is never a set back along the way. Two steps forward and a half a step back is still advancing and that is the important thing.
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cp, I have addressed much of what you have stated. If I am wrong about something, then please share what it is. I am happy to answer your concerns, but you keep overlooking every question I ask and then continue on stating things are not correct. If you want to take one question at a time, fine, but don't expect me to not address your error. It misleads others who are not sure about the gospel.
I will go over your last two posts and then ask one question.
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I have never said that grace covers sin not repented of.
If a person is steadily growing in Christ and being chiseled and shaped by God but still not perfect and while driving home becomes angry at another driver who cuts him off and before having opportunity to repent is killed in a head on collision is the person in an unconverted state and lost?
My one question for you, cp, is this: You are teaching that one sin does not reveal that a person does not have salvation. If it is not God's grace that you are saying excuses this man's sin, then why does he retain his justification while sinning? I have always understood that the only reason we are forgiven our sins when we repent is because of God's grace. But, you say that you do not believe God's grace covers this man's sin. Then what does the Bible say about God overlooking known sin? This is just one question. Which Bible verses tell us that God is going to allow man to retain eternal life while sinning a known sin?
It is true that we are granted temporal life for a period of time, but that is not eternal life. That comes with a full surrender at conversion. Often we hear "conservatives" saying that Eve lost eternal life when she only ate one forbidden fruit, just one sin. But, you are now saying that we can sin one sin and retain eternal life. That things have changed since Adam and Eve disobeyed God. My one question, share with us the Bible verses that will grant us salvation while sinning.
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Thank you Richard for the time you have spent in this discussion, but I believe we are at an impasse. I don't see any point in continuing.
I also believe that I am well able to articulate what I think and believe and that others are able to read and form their own opinions; so, I do ask, Richard, that you cease and desist from stating what you think I believe or what you think I said. You have not been correct in your assumptions.
Moderators, please, if Richard quotes me or refers to anything that I have posted previously, edit his post and remove the comment.
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There Is A Wideness In God's Mercy
Frederick William Faber (1814 - 1863)
There's a wideness in God's mercy,
Like the wideness of the sea;
There's a kindness in His justice,
Which is more than liberty.
There is no place where earth's sorrows
Are more felt than up in Heaven;
There is no place where earth's failings
Have such kindly judgment given.
But we make His love too narrow
By false limits of our own;
And we magnify His strictness
With a zeal He will not own.
There is plentiful redemption
In the blood that has been shed;
There is joy for all the members
In the sorrows of the Head.
For the love of God is broader
Than the measure of our mind;
And the heart of the Eternal
Is most wonderfully kind.
If our love were but more simple,
We should take Him at His word;
And our lives would be all sunshine
In the sweetness of our Lord.
The spasmodic, fitful movements of some who claim to be Christians is well represented by the work of strong but untrained horses. When one pulls forward, another pulls back; and at the voice of their master, one plunges ahead, and the other stands immovable. If men will not move in concert in the great and grand work for this time, there will be confusion. It is not a good sign when men refuse to unite with their brethren and prefer to act alone. Instead of isolating themselves, let them draw in harmony with their fellow laborers. Unless they do this, their activity will work at the wrong time and in the wrong way. They will often work counter to that which God would have done, and thus their labor is worse than wasted. Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers, Page 489.04
Men to be Counselors, Not Rulers
“Wait on the Lord: be of good courage, and He shall strengthen thine heart.” Let us each wait on the Lord, and He will teach us how to labor. He will reveal to us the work that we are best adapted to perform. This will not lead men to start out in an independent spirit, to promulgate new theories. In this time when Satan is seeking to make void the law of God through the exaltation of false science, we need to guard most carefully against everything that would tend to lessen our faith and scatter our forces. As laborers together with God, we should be in harmony with the truth, and with our brethren. There should be counsel and cooperation. Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers, Page 490.01
There always have been, and always will be to the end of time, two classes on the earth,—the believers in Jesus and those who reject Him. The truth will be a savour of life unto life to those who believe. However wicked, abominable, and corrupt he may be, the sinner will be purified by faith in Him, made clean by THE DOING of His word. But the same truth will be to the unbeliever a savour of death unto death. The Bible Echo March 26, 1894.01
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Moderators, please, if Richard quotes me or refers to anything that I have posted previously, edit his post and remove the comment.
Oh, Carla ... no, we would not do that. In the process of exchanges difficulties can and sometimes do arise. While you feel you have been misrepresented, prayerfully go to your brother, one on one, and work this out. No one is here to malign anyone. We value you and so does all of heaven.
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I have never said that grace covers sin not repented of.
If a person is steadily growing in Christ and being chiseled and shaped by God but still not perfect and while driving home becomes angry at another driver who cuts him off and before having opportunity to repent is killed in a head on collision is the person in an unconverted state and lost?
My one question for you, cp, is this: You are teaching that one sin does not reveal that a person does not have salvation. If it is not God's grace that you are saying excuses this man's sin, then why does he retain his justification while sinning? I have always understood that the only reason we are forgiven our sins when we repent is because of God's grace. But, you say that you do not believe God's grace covers this man's sin. Then what does the Bible say about God overlooking known sin? This is just one question. Which Bible verses tell us that God is going to allow man to retain eternal life while sinning a known sin?
I guess I was not clear enough in the post above so the intent was not understood. I hope you can accept that without a false accusation as what you know that I meant. The man did not verbally or outwardly have a chance to repent. He had not time to ask forgiveness. However, my thoughts were that he had a repentant heart and that is ultimately what God is looking at. In other words he was not rebelling against God but simply slipped a step along the path and had not time to make it right. He did not slip down into the abyss but stumbled. In his heart he was repentant and abhorred sin, and loved God. The trend of his life was right he just had not fully arrived. So in the true sense he did repent as God looks on the heart. I do not see how this is cheap grace to be forgiven any more than it would be cheap grace in your example for God to lay someone to rest (whose heart was right with Him) before they had a chance to sin again. In a previous statement you said that God sometimes lays people to rest before they could sin again and be lost. Is that cheap grace ? I have answered your question to the best of my ability. ..... Could you post an example from the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy where a person was on the upward path of sanctification and converted and God cut their probation short so they could not fall back into sin? I would like to take a close look at that example.
I did not say that God's grace did not cover that man's sin. You did. This man was not unconverted as conversion is a lifelong process. Do you agree ?
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Let me ask another question that may help you, cp. #1 Because the trend of the life has been good, is that a guarantee that the person will repent if he sins? And if it is not, #2 then why do you give the person eternal life when he sins? #3 At what point will you agree that he does not have life?
Answer to #1 - No
Answer to #2- Because if God reads the heart and sees that it is repentant or even that it would be repentant then why would you take away eternal life ?
Answer to #3- When as God looks at the heart he sees the end from the beginning that the person is unconverted and will not be converted though given more probationary time. Mrs. White makes it clear that were God to give a person who has sealed their heart against God more time it would not matter. Neither would a repentant person who is sealed with the Holy Spirit rebel and be lost if given more probation. Salvation or loss of salvation is not continguent on time.
Let me see if I understand you correctly.
You believe that God looks into the future and sees that a repentant converted person will turn back to sin so his grace covers him and cuts his probation short.
If God can, as you say, look ahead and know that a person would be lost if He did not lay him in the grave before he rebels and God saves him,....... then how can you think that God cannot/would not look presently and see that a person has repented in their heart or that they would repent in the future if given opportunity therefore He would save them by grace through faith ?
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I need to jump in. Colporteur, your #2 and probably 3 as well if I begin to understand it, has the appearance of relationship theology. Here is an example:
Some years before I had spoken with Brother Venden and attempted to correct his error without success. Ten years later he had corrected the point I made, but revealed that he had other significant error. I asked him very pointedly, that if a man sinned on Monday and did not repent until Friday, was he in a saved condition prior to his repentance. Morris Venden said, "Absolutely he was in a saved condition. I teach 'relationship theology".
I don't think you believe that.
The last point in the post above has to do with God laying people in the grave to save them. Do you remember the vision in Early Writings, page 17 where His messenger wrote this? We all went under the tree and sat down to look at the glory of the place, when Brethren Fitch and Stockman, who had preached the gospel of the kingdom, and whom God had laid in the grave to save them, came up to us and asked us what we had passed through while they were sleeping.
Also remember God will cut short TIME else the entire earth would be destroyed.
"Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: for He will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma and been made like unto Gomorrah."
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I am disturbed with the perversion of the plain gospel that has occasionally been presented in the pages of this topic. There is evidence presented that shows a gross misunderstanding of what it means to be converted, what it means to ever be abiding in Christ, what it means to have the Spirit's indwelling and what is involved in obtaining salvation. Here are some topics we have on just those subjects.
What is Conversion? (private board) http://remnant-online.com/smf/index.php?topic=11812.0
Abiding in Christ http://remnant-online.com/smf/index.php?topic=751.0
Fruit of the Spirit http://remnant-online.com/smf/index.php?topic=12723.0
Salvation - what is it? How to get it? http://remnant-online.com/smf/index.php?topic=836.0
It is very, very easy to become entangled in side issues while discussing Romans 7. Why? Because basic foundational issues relative to the Bible doctrines of conversion, abiding in Christ, the fruit of the Spirit, and conditions to salvation are not fully comprehended and consequently, another gospel is introduced, taught and believed as Bible truth. "It is written" in Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. How strongly does God believe His word should be guarded? Strongly enough to condemn anyone who would introduce another. Who have we become if we believe such lies and pass them off as as the gospel of Jesus?
There are fourteen pages of Bible truth in this thread that carefully lays out why Paul's condition is that of the unconverted under heavy conviction by the Holy Spirit. Its understanding is predicated upon first knowing what conversion is, what it means to abide in Christ, what it means to be possessed of the Spirit of God and, the conditions of salvation. Paul knew and wrote much of the New Testament just on these subjects. Do we believe him in one place and not in another? Do we not take the Bible as it reads but instead, massage it into our own experience, our fallen experience, our Laodicean experience?
Can we have sin unrepented of and still have eternal life? Maybe we need to begin again and read Steps to Christ so we can get our doctrinal issues straight once more if they cannot be clearly understood from Scripture. That is the purpose of the Inspiration we have been given. If we understood our Bibles better, we would not need the testimonies.
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I posted this a few pages back and it was overwhelmed by human reasoning and responses lacking a "Thus saith the Lord." So, I will post it once more. If anyone has evidence to the contrary, meet it with Scripture. We are Bible students. Enough of human wisdom and speculation. The Bible is our guide.
>>Are we more than conquerors? Yes, we are – Romans 8:37.
>>Are we accepted in the Beloved? Yes, we are – Ephesians 1:16.
>>Have we been delivered from the law of sin and death that Satan is determined to make us slaves to? Yes, we have been – Romans 8:2.
>>Who can do all things through Christ who strengthens me? We can – Philippians 4:13.
>>Without Christ there is no power to resist the least temptation. Here is a promise that is conditioned upon the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Christ in the heart: 1Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
All of this is ours through the powerful grace of Christ Jesus. Anything stating the opposite cannot be of Him. Consider the following:
What are the characteristics of a converted Christian who dies daily, who is continually abiding and growing in Christ, and who is delivered, nay redeemed from the law of sin and death? Let’s do some comparisons of a few verses in Romans with those found elsewhere in the Bible to see who the converted Christian is, and is that what is described in Romans 7.
• Romans 7:14 says: Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Is that a characteristic of a Christian, everything we know a Christian to be? No. Carnal, sold under sin is outside of Christ.
Conversely, review these contrasting verses:
1Timothy 1:9 says: 1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, etc.
1Corinthians 2:16 But we have the mind of Christ.
Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Rom 8:6 & 7 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
• Romans 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Contrast the following verses:
Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Matthew 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
• Romans 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Contrast the following verses:
1Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Romans 8:7-10 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
- Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth...
Luke 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
2Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
Ephesians 3:17 - 21 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end.
- Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
The comparison of just these few verses is stark. There are so many more verses that could be added. It is something to consider.
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What I have been saying that seems to me missed here is that God is looking at the heart. He will not judge incorrectly. He knows if the heart is repentant even better then man does and certainly better than bystanders do . He will take to heaven those who are safe to take to heaven is that not true ?
I have never said anything to the effect that man can sin, refuse to repent and then be saved, however you seem to think I am saying that.
When I gave the example of the person killed on the highway who was growing in Christ, being sanctificied daily and gaining victory over sin it was implied that he had a repentant heart even though he had no time to express such. Some would say that God could not save him and if He did He would have to keep him alive until he outwardly gave expression of repentance. I acknowlege that I said he died in an accident before he repented but I meant in terms of an outward expression of repentance so perhaps my statement was either misleading or else not well enough defined so as others would not get the wrong idea. You must understand that I never ever said that we can sin, refuse to repent and be saved. However, this is the way you take this and this is troubling.
Regarding #2 Let me ask this Sybil. Does not repentance begin in the heart ? Does it necessarily mean that one is repentant because he says he is sorry ? Is not the heart that God reads the true indicator ? My point is that repentance begins in the heart and an outward show is not proof of anything.
You quoted "
"Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: for He will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma and been made like unto Gomorrah."
The above quote says nothing about the remnant backsliding into sin had time not been shortened. I have always seen that quote to mean physical survival in the face of persecution. If you have something that says time was cut short to save them from apostasizing please present it.
In terms of Venden I do not have the same theology as he and abhor what he teaches. Someone who holds his theology will also look at standards as he does. He makes fun of "those holy people." I do not.
The quote from the SOP about Fitch and Stockman is valid and notice again that I did not deny such a quote existed but asked that it be posted. I intend on looking at that more closely.
My point relative to this topic was that it is inconsistant to think that God would save someone who if given longer probation would live as the devil but at the same time take someone who is growing the other way, growing in Christ daily but faulters/sins along the way and simply had not time to give any outward evidence of repentance and place him in the lake of fire. Christ will never take one who is growing in Him and seeking His face and destroy him because of a shortened probation while shortening the probation of another so he will not become evil. I'm sorry but I can never believe in one without the other. Perhaps we will have to agree to disagree. We will see will we not when it is all said and done ?
In the mean time I think if we spent more time seeking God's face and doing His work in the field and less time placing poor slants on the posting of others we would attain that which we believe is necessary.
" None are fully converted until their characters are perfected and character perfection is the work of a lifetime. " Do you believe that ?
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" None are fully converted until their characters are perfected and character perfection is the work of a lifetime. " Do you believe that ?
No, I don't. What you appear to describe is progressive conversion. What the Bible speaks of is progressive growth in sanctification which produces character perfection.
When we are born again, that is the point of conversion. We are as babes. John 3:3; 1Peter 2:2. Born again means a transformation, a new birth in Christ Jesus. It is not progressive but it does come after a long protracted period of wooing by the Holy Spirit. Either we are converted and become a new creature in Christ or we don't. We are never a little bit converted or half-way converted or 7/8ths converted. And, we remain converted as we abide in Christ, never letting go or taking our eyes off of Him. Sanctification, however, is progressive, and IT is the work of a lifetime, where we "may grow up into him in all things." Ephesians 4:15.
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If you wish to stay on the topic of Romans 7 & 8, we can because we are about to launch into Romans 8. If you want to discuss other subjects, let's go to those existing individual boards.
Romans 8
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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" None are fully converted until their characters are perfected and character perfection is the work of a lifetime. " Do you believe that ?
No, I don't. What you appear to describe is progressive conversion. What the Bible speaks of is progressive growth in sanctification which produces character perfection.
When we are born again, that is the point of conversion. We are as babes. John 3:3; 1Peter 2:2. Born again means a transformation, a new birth in Christ Jesus. It is not progressive but it does come after a long protracted period of wooing by the Holy Spirit. Either we are converted and become a new creature in Christ or we don't. We are never a little bit converted or half-way converted or 7/8ths converted. And, we remain converted as we abide in Christ, never letting go or taking our eyes off of Him. Sanctification, however, is progressive, and IT is the work of a lifetime, where we "may grow up into him in all things." Ephesians 4:15.
Tesimonies For the Church page 505 paragraph 2 " ...... Every living Christian will advance daily in the divine life. As he advances toward perfection, he experiences a conversion to God every day: and this conversion is not completed until he attains to perfection of Christian character, a full preparation for the finishing touch of immortality."
What you feel sister is just more human reasoning is a direct quote from Inspiration. I believe it.
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That was volume 2 of the Testimonies. My recollection of the quote was not word for word but close. I take no joy in debating. It tends to be destructive rather than edifying. It is my desire that we all attain that perfection that Jesus died to give us. I desire to do the will of God and that I should disappoint in no way. I wish to redeem the time and to be a stepping to stone to Him and a stumbling block to no one. I believe in victory over sin, over every sin even in a single thought, and not as an option but as a promise, an assurance, and a reality. May we die daily and reflect the character of Christ. May we be converted, and reconverted daily as we hasten the coming of the one altogether lovely, our Lord and Savior Jesus.
I love everyone on the forum and wish you the best.
Happy Sabbath to all !
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Tesimonies For the Church page 505 paragraph 2 " ...... Every living Christian will advance daily in the divine life. As he advances toward perfection, he experiences a conversion to God every day: and this conversion is not completed until he attains to perfection of Christian character, a full preparation for the finishing touch of immortality."
What you feel sister is just more human reasoning is a direct quote from Inspiration. I believe it.
It would seem the definition you are giving the word "conversion" is not consistent with the way Mrs. White uses it in her statement. In this statement she uses it in meaning the process of change a person's character experiences. Having to do with sanctification. In the previous passage I supplied, the definition for "conversion" is in the context of a person converting their theological ideas, or a change of heart to God and His law and makeing a "converted" decision to follow God, His laws and precepts.
Perhaps there is a misunderstanding of definitions?
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Tesimonies For the Church page 505 paragraph 2 " ...... Every living Christian will advance daily in the divine life. As he advances toward perfection, he experiences a conversion to God every day: and this conversion is not completed until he attains to perfection of Christian character, a full preparation for the finishing touch of immortality."
What you feel sister is just more human reasoning is a direct quote from Inspiration. I believe it.
Jesus told the Pharisees who came to Him warning Him to flee from Herod,
Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected. 33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following.... Luke 13:31, 32
We, to day, are called to exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. Hebrews 3:13
The fall of our first parents broke the golden chain of implicit obedience of the human will to the divine. Obedience has no longer been deemed an absolute necessity. The human agents follow their own imaginations, which the Lord said of the inhabitants of the old world were evil and that continually. The Lord Jesus declares, I have kept My Father’s commandments. How? As a man.... 3SM 138.2
Neither giv(ing) place to the devil. 30 ....griev(ing) not the holy Spirit of God, whereby (He was) sealed unto the day of redemption. Ephesians 4:27, 30
And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. Luke 2:40, 52
Each moment of the life of Christ, from birth to manhood, and as "representing humanity, inhabited by divinity"(The Review and Herald August 18, 1896.07), -leading up to His crucifixion, was a perfect example of overcoming the world, the flesh, and the devil. The Crucifixion itself was the culmination of that daily dying to self (Neither giv(ing) place to the devil. 30 ....griev(ing) not the holy Spirit of God, whereby (He was) sealed unto the day of redemption. Ephesians 4:27, 30) that essentially forever sealed His loyalty to pure LOVE, assuring the Believer of the possibility of overcoming on his/her own account, as Christ did on His. Though He accepted to drink "the cup" in the darkness of that dreadful night in the Garden of Gethsemane, as He had stated, he yet could have prayed to His Father and He would have sent Him more than twelve legions of angels. 54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be? (Matthew 26:53, 54)
....Christ entered the field in man’s behalf to conquer Satan for him because He saw that (unconverted) man could not overcome on his own account. Christ prepared the way for the ransom of man by His own life of suffering, self-denial, and self-sacrifice, and by His humiliation and final death. He brought help to man that he might, by following Christ’s example, overcome on his own account, as Christ has overcome for him.3T 372.01
....How careful is the Lord Jesus to give no occasion for a soul to despair. How he fences about the soul from Satan’s fierce attacks. If through manifold temptations we are surprised or deceived into sin, he does not turn from us, and leave us to perish. No, no, that is not like our Saviour. Christ prays for us.He was tempted in all points like as we are; and having been tempted, he knows how to succor those who are tempted. Our crucified Lord is pleading for us in the presence of his Father at the throne of grace. His atoning sacrifice we may plead for our pardon, our justification, and our sanctification. The Lamb slain is our only hope. The Review and Herald September 1, 1891 Par. 2
"The Lamb slain is our only hope." Christ prayed for Peter, as well; and, after he denied His Lord, seeing the look of love on his Saviors face, Christ's prayer that his faith fail not, was answered in his being born again. (see Luke 22:32)
Those who live at the End of The Age, who are spiritually minded through Christ, will have the privilege of hoarded hindsight, as it were, as they daily choose to "keep the Light" on, abiding in Christ, possessed of His Spirit. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. Romans 13:12; John 1:1-4, 13
We, too, with Christ abiding within our soul-temple, "must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following...." The Shekinah glory blazing forth from within....
Those that overcome the world, the flesh, and the devil, will be the favored ones who shall receive the seal of the living God. Those whose hands are not clean, whose hearts are not pure, will not have the seal of the living God. Those who are planning sin and acting it will be passed by. TM 445. 01
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When I gave the example of the person killed on the highway who was growing in Christ, being sanctificied daily and gaining victory over sin it was implied that he had a repentant heart even though he had no time to express such. Some would say that God could not save him and if He did He would have to keep him alive until he outwardly gave expression of repentance. I acknowlege that I said he died in an accident before he repented but I meant in terms of an outward expression of repentance so perhaps my statement was either misleading or else not well enough defined so as others would not get the wrong idea.
Thank you, cp. That is a whole different theology than what we heard you saying. To allow a man to have life when he is unrepentant, saying he will repent in the future, is a false gospel. It is what Venden and Sequiera teach. God looks upon the heart. If He resides there, then there is life in the soul. If we have not His Spirit, we are none of His. "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness." Romans 8:9,10.
Have a blessed Sabbath. We love you too!
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Cop, are you saying that verse 15 describes the converted Christian?
7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
I would have to disagree. If I do that which I know is wrong, I am not converted. Christ is not in me.
Yes, that is what Paul is saying about himself. He is speaking, as I stated, in the present tense, not the past tense.
Let us look at the difference between present and past tense in this verse. He would have been speaking of his past life if he had written thus: 'For that which I did, I allowed not: for what I would have, that did I not; but what I hated, that did I.' But he has written in the present tense: "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I."
In Galatians 5:16-18, Paul says almost the exact same thing as he wrote in Romans 7: "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."
Christ does not reject us, and we lose our salvation, every time we sin. But if we refuse to admit to God that we have sinned and continue in that sin, then I say, yes, we have lost our salvation. "He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy." [Prov. 28:13].
John in 1 John tells us: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." [1 Jo. 1: 9]. John is writing to the members of the church, to Christians, and telling these Christians that whenever they commit a sin, they have forgiveness if they confess. In chapter 2 verse 1 he says: "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" The LORD is telling us (Christians) that we, not the lost, 'have an advocate with the Father'.
We must accept the word of God as it is written: The language of the Bible should be explained according to its obvious meaning, unless a symbol or figure is employed. Christ has given the promise: "If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine." John 7:17. If men would but take the Bible as it reads, if there were no false teachers to mislead and confuse their minds, a work would be accomplished that would make angels glad and that would bring into the fold of Christ thousands upon thousands who are now wandering in error.
[GC 599]
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Tesimonies For the Church page 505 paragraph 2 " ...... Every living Christian will advance daily in the divine life. As he advances toward perfection, he experiences a conversion to God every day: and this conversion is not completed until he attains to perfection of Christian character, a full preparation for the finishing touch of immortality."
What you feel sister is just more human reasoning is a direct quote from Inspiration. I believe it.
It would seem the definition you are giving the word "conversion" is not consistent with the way Mrs. White uses it in her statement. In this statement she uses it in meaning the process of change a person's character experiences. Having to do with sanctification. In the previous passage I supplied, the definition for "conversion" is in the context of a person converting their theological ideas, or a change of heart to God and His law and makeing a "converted" decision to follow God, His laws and precepts.
Perhaps there is a misunderstanding of definitions?
Perhaps so, ejclark, because I was discussing the born again state of conversion. The scripture I supplied gave evidence of its beginning stages - babe, new birth. At conversion, true conversion, God has the whole heart, not portions of it. The entire life is surrendered to Christ and nothing is held back. There is no such thing as partial conversion when one wholly dies to self and begins a new life in Christ.
Quote from: colporteur on September 21, 2012, 05:52:09 PM
When I gave the example of the person killed on the highway who was growing in Christ, being sanctificied daily and gaining victory over sin it was implied that he had a repentant heart even though he had no time to express such. Some would say that God could not save him and if He did He would have to keep him alive until he outwardly gave expression of repentance. I acknowlege that I said he died in an accident before he repented but I meant in terms of an outward expression of repentance so perhaps my statement was either misleading or else not well enough defined so as others would not get the wrong idea.
I have purposefully not addressed Colporteur's killed-in-an-accident man because the scenario(s) [there were a couple of them that varied from post to post] he presents is as ridiculous a characterization of the intents of God as I have ever seen. He would have the man saved after he cursed got angry at a bad driver and had no time to repent before being killed. He said God knew the man's intent, that had he lived, he would have repented. I wish Colporteur had followed this discussion along with Scripture in defense of his position instead of loosely gathered scenarios of what he thought God would do in any given situation. Scripture tells us exactly how God sees sin. A man who can curse become angry enough at someone to sin just prior to his death is not within the will of God.
That was volume 2 of the Testimonies. My recollection of the quote was not word for word but close.
And I appreciate that quote because it is the deeper conversion, well beyond that which I was referring to at the beginning of one's experience.
I take no joy in debating. It tends to be destructive rather than edifying.
To the contrary, my friend Colporteur, you do appear to feed upon debating and there is no place for it among Christians because it is destructive and not at all edifying.
It is my desire that we all attain that perfection that Jesus died to give us. I desire to do the will of God and that I should disappoint in no way. I wish to redeem the time and to be a stepping to stone to Him and a stumbling block to no one. I believe in victory over sin, over every sin even in a single thought, and not as an option but as a promise, an assurance, and a reality. May we die daily and reflect the character of Christ. May we be converted, and reconverted daily as we hasten the coming of the one altogether lovely, our Lord and Savior Jesus.
I love everyone on the forum and wish you the best.
Happy Sabbath to all !
I love you, too. And to point out something you say in your parting words: if you really believe what you said, then you could not also believe the man in the car accident could be saved while cursing angrily sinning against another driver prior to death and expect that God would save him. Was his final act in life one that showed he possessed the fruit of the Spirit? Did it show he was abiding in Christ? Did he have the attributes of One altogether lovely?
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
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If a person retains salvation while sinning as some to be saying here I'm left with a couple of questions....
Why were Adam and Eve removed from the garden of Eden after only eating a piece of fruit?
Why was Moses denied entrance into the Promised land only because he lost his temper for a moment?
Contrary to what I understand scripture to be saying it appears that some believe that a good tree can indeed produce bad fruit and light and darkness can dwell together.
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Amen.
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In Galatians 5:16-18, Paul says almost the exact same thing as he wrote in Romans 7: "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."
This seems contradictory, Cop, to equate what Paul is saying in Romans vs. Galatians. Yes, he is making reference to almost the identical words, but in Galatians he is giving the solution. A few verses later is this:
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
How is Paul walking in the Spirit in Romans 7 while he is unable to tap into the power that will reverse his condemnation and give him relief from his "wretched" condition? He is not walking in the Spirit in Romans 7. He is squirming under the fact that he is carnal, sold under sin and crying out for deliverance. He is suffering because sin is still very much alive in his life.
I believe we need to move on to Romans 8. It will clearly reveal the condition of the man described in Romans 7.
When there was frustration in ch 7 (v.24), there is peace in ch 8 (v.6).
In ch 7 there is spiritual death (v.10), but in ch 8 there is life (v.6).
In ch 7 there is defeat (v.15), but in ch 8 there is victory (v.13)
In ch 7 he is a slave to sin (v.14), but in ch 8 he is free from sin (v.2)
In chapter 7 he acts against the law of God (v.22.23) but in ch 8 he can through the Spirit obey Gods law (v.4)
In ch 7 he is a "wretched man", but in ch 8 he is a "child of God" (v.14)
In ch 7 he is driven by his flesh (v.23), but in ch 8 he is driven by the Spirit (v.14)
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I will post it once more.
Romans 8
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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How is Paul walking in the Spirit in Romans 7 while he is unable to tap into the power that will reverse his condemnation and give him relief from his "wretched" condition? He is not walking in the Spirit in Romans 7. He is squirming under the fact that he is carnal, sold under sin and crying out for deliverance. He is suffering because sin is still very much alive in his life.
Praise the Lord, he does tell us how to tap into this power that gives relief from the power of sin in verses 24 & 25: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. "
Verses 14-25 describe the experience of the born again person. A few reasons for this statement are offfered here:
1. In verses 7-13, in which Paul describes how the law awakened him to his sinful state, he uses the past tense. In verses 14-25, he changes to the present tense. Logic suggests that there must be some reason for this. The obvious one is that he is acually describing his own immediate experience as a Christian.
2. “What I hate, that do I” (verse 15). The unregenerate person does not hate sin. In chapter 8 verses 5 & 7 we read: “For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit...Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” Such a statement as Paul made in verse 15, might be made by one who is under conviction.
3. “I delight in the law of God” (verse 22). The one who can delight in the law of God is the born again person (“Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” Ro. 8:7). It is conceivable that one under conviction might have such feelings.
4. In verse 5 Paul refers to “...when we were in the flesh...” (past tense). This suggests that when he writes in the present tense, he is “in the Spirit”. It seems that nothing that he actually says suggests otherwise. If it is held that he is referring to a past experience, it must be made on grounds other than his language.
5. In verse 23, sin is described as an obstacle to the “inward man”... the regenerate, or born again person (v. 22), which is impeding his growth towards perfection in Christ. The citadel of the soul which has been surrendered to God is being attacked and besieged by sin in the physical faculties (“...sin which is in my members”) . This again tells us that the passage does refer to the born again Christian.
6. If we are to assume that verses 14-24 refer to Paul’s experience in his past before his conversion, when he was struggling with his conscience, why, after triumphantly stating that victory comes, “through Jesus Christ our Lord” (verse 25), would he immediately revert to his theme of 14-24 and say, “So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin”? It would appear that he is saying in effect, “I can do all things through Christ”; ultimate victory over every sin is assured, but I must constantly, daily, battle with my fleshly propensities. “Paul was on watch lest evil propensities should get the better of him. He guarded well his appetites and passions and evil propensities.” (BC 1089).
Can it be that the regenerate will have the experience described in these verses...that of doing what he hates (verse 15), doing what he wills not to do (verse 18), being a dwelling place for sin (verse 20), being in “captivity to the law of sin” (verse 23)? Is this not our experience in our Christian walk towards perfection in Christ? Unless we have already reached perfection, I believe the answer to the question is, YES.
The regenerated person knows that his true humanity is in Christ, but he knows also by undeniable experience that the old humanity still lives in him. Therefore, his life is a moral conflict. It is a greater conflict than before. In the time before his conversion it took the form of a struggle to achieve self-justification against an accusing but only half awakened conscience; now it is a conflict between the old nature and the new, between experience and faith and the conscience that is illuminated and quickened by the Holy Spirit, and by the vision of the perfect life in Christ.
Is there any born again Christian who will insist that he does not experience to some degree what Paul here describes? I know of none.
[I normally do not write such a long post as this as they are wearisome to read. Please forgive...]
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How is Paul walking in the Spirit in Romans 7 while he is unable to tap into the power that will reverse his condemnation and give him relief from his "wretched" condition? He is not walking in the Spirit in Romans 7. He is squirming under the fact that he is carnal, sold under sin and crying out for deliverance. He is suffering because sin is still very much alive in his life.
Praise the Lord, he does tell us how to tap into this power that gives relief from the power of sin in verses 24 & 25: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. "
Oh yes, I have always acknowledged the shift, the change, the solution to his condition found in the last two verses.
I am reading the rest of your post. Thank you, Cop.
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2. “What I hate, that do I” (verse 15). The unregenerate person does not hate sin. In chapter 8 verses 5 & 7 we read: “For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit...Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” Such a statement as Paul made in verse 15, might be made by one who is under conviction.
3. “I delight in the law of God” (verse 22). The one who can delight in the law of God is the born again person (“Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” Ro. 8:7). It is conceivable that one under conviction might have such feelings.
I firmly believe he is under conviction throughout Romans 7 until the last two verses, and he reveals the power he has found to obey. We are told he struggled many nights while under conviction. I am convinced Romans 7 is a recollection of that struggle. See The Life of Paul, page 24. He was far from converted in that account. But, he was under the mightiest of convictions brought on by the Holy Spirit.
Here is more food for thought:
The Saviour said, "Except a man be born from above," unless he shall receive a new heart, new desires, purposes, and motives, leading to a new life, "he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3, margin. The idea that it is necessary only to develop the good that exists in man by nature, is a fatal deception. "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." 1 Corinthians 2:14; 3:7. Of Christ it is written, "In Him was life; and the life was the light of men"--the only "name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." John 1:4; Acts 4:12. {SC 18.2}
It is not enough to perceive the loving-kindness of God, to see the benevolence, the fatherly tenderness, of His character. It is not enough to discern the wisdom and justice of His law, to see that it is founded upon the eternal principle of love. Paul the apostle saw all this when he exclaimed, "I consent unto the law that it is good." "The law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." But he added, in the bitterness of his soul-anguish and despair, "I am carnal, sold under sin." Romans 7:16, 12, 14. He longed for the purity, the righteousness, to which in himself he was powerless to attain, and cried out, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death?" Romans 7:24, margin. Such is the cry that has gone up from burdened hearts in all lands and in all ages. To all, there is but one answer, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. {SC 19.1}
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How is Paul walking in the Spirit in Romans 7 while he is unable to tap into the power that will reverse his condemnation and give him relief from his "wretched" condition? He is not walking in the Spirit in Romans 7.
Sister Sybil, I'll repeat a question I believe I've asked before, but didn't receive help on:
Does the Scripture, ....holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2 Peter 1:21 NOT include Paul as he writes in Romans Chapter Seven? -How; then, can we say that Paul "is not walking in the Spirit, as he writes those verses"? My! How he has fallen from Romans Chapters 1-6:
Romans 1:9
....God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son....
Romans 2:8, 9
--unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil....
Romans 3:21
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Romans 4:19-21
(Abraham)....being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: 20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Romans 5:10, 21
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6:1-4, 21, 22
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
As we see, in Romans Chapters 1-6; then again, in Chapters 8-16 Paul obviously is inspired in his "inward man", AND in his actions, calling all of us to an higher standard.
--As I see it:
When Paul sat down and began to write the first words of Chapter 7, he already knew the secret to victory as being that which he wrote in Romans 13:14 ....put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
IF, as you have inferred, Paul as he writes in Romans 7, is not walking in the Spirit, why are his writings in that chapter even included in the Bible, and considered, "inspired"? Are Paul's words in verse 25, for example, So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.... actually have me to believe that I can "have the mind of Christ" (Philippians 2:5) and at the same time yield to sin, condemned by the law; all the while grateful that Jesus saves me still? How "neatly" does his purported (at least as I understand you to be saying) conversion "happen" to come between Romans 7: 25 and Romans 8:1! I thought the chapter divisions were man-made? I sincerely believe there is grave danger believing that we may trust Paul's reasoning in Romans 7; if indeed, he's actually unconverted as he sits writing, there.
Do I believe he is inspired and "walking in the Spirit in Romans 7? Yes indeed! Paul is there describing the experience of professed Christians in the Church, manifesting how he To the weak became....as weak, that (he) might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, he says that I might by all means save some. 1 Corinthians 9:22
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 1 John 5:18
The description in Romans 7 describes, I believe, what Ellen White describes in the following:
Let us glorify God that we have a Saviour to make intercession for us, to speak in our behalf before the Father, and present His merit as a propitiation for our sins. Let us glorify God that although we are defective He honors us by permitting us to advocate truth and to maintain His cause. But although we make many mistakes in that which we do, although we fail of doing it in the best way, although we neglect and leave many things undone because self is not surrendered to God, although we are creatures full of vanity and selfishness and self-esteem (and all this God despises), yet notwithstanding our many imperfections He continues to teach us, and commissions us to act a part in His cause. When tried and tempted, many have virtually cast reflections upon God, yet the Lord has not cast them off forever. He has borne long with them and has given them another trial, and provided new opportunities, and has put forth every effort to draw them nigh unto Himself, in order that they might behold Jesus and become changed into His image in spirit and character. Manuscript Releases Volume Thirteen [Nos. 1000-1080], Page 279.01
Every individual must fight the good fight of faith for himself, in order to attain to the perfection of Christian character that will fit him for the society of the saints in light. Manuscript Releases Volume Thirteen [Nos. 1000-1080], Page 279.02
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Glen, this will help explain. I am sorry I didn't catch your question before.
4. In verse 5 Paul refers to “...when we were in the flesh...” (past tense). This suggests that when he writes in the present tense, he is “in the Spirit”. It seems that nothing that he actually says suggests otherwise. If it is held that he is referring to a past experience, it must be made on grounds other than his language.
As a writer recounting his experience, as we do here in a testimony, through storytelling or book-writing, etc., it makes sense he would write it that way. How many inspired letters did he write before Romans?
These are the generally accepted dates attached to his writings:
First Thessalonians (ca. 51 AD)
Philippians (ca. 52-54 AD)
Philemon (ca. 52-54 AD)
First Corinthians (ca. 53-54 AD)
Galatians (ca. 55 AD)
Second Corinthians (ca. 55-56 AD)
Romans (ca. 55-58 AD)
I have no argument at all, for there is no other way to tell of his experience except in the present tense. John, Daniel and other Bible writers did the same thing. The question here is, of what experience was he telling them? He is recounting his conviction that was leading up to his conversion. For up until the end of the chapter, he was powerless to perform. With conversion comes power as long as we abide in Christ. 1Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
I will get to Cop's #s 5 & 6, but for the moment, I need to run.
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How many inspired letters did he write before Romans?
I did NOT ask: "How many inspired letters" did Paul "write before Romans". -You said that "He is not walking in the Spirit in Romans 7." I take exception to the suggestion that Paul wasn't in the Spirit as he wrote Romans 7.
I concur that "Saul was far from converted" in EGW's account of his being convicted in Life and Sketches of Paul p. 24, describing his struggle under conviction caused by the Holy Spirit through the godly testimony of Stephen as he was martyred.
Paul's account in Romans 7 as an "holy man of God speaking as He was moved by the Holy Ghost" (2 Peter 1:21), necessarily would mean that he was; indeed, "in the Spirit" as he wrote it. As Scripture declares: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:16, 17
Actually, my question and thought was focused exclusively on the in-congruency of; on the one hand, Paul being truly inspired as he wrote Romans 7; --on the other hand, your suggestion that Paul was NOT in the Spirit as he wrote those verses in chapter 7. Is the description he wrote about, a description of someone not dwelling in the Spirit of God, unable to do the right when under conviction to DO right? -Yes
In Romans chapter 1:18-22, Paul, in the Spirit, had clearly stated:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
So; by Romans chapter 7, unless he had fallen away after he wrote chapter 1, Paul was still "in the Spirit" as he wrote chapter 7.
Perhaps what we need to understand, here, is that there's a difference between what he wrote (under Inspiration), and what he was writing about? --A person who is "in the Spirit" would KNOW that: "What Would Jesus Do?" -would be "second nature"; not an outcry of O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? vs.24.
No, I cannot accept that those who have received the impartation of the Holy Spirit, which is the impartation of the life of Christ, will be in an anguish, sold under sin.
(See Gods Amazing Grace, p. 212.4)
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Glen, I think maybe there's been a misunderstanding. I can't speak for Sybil (she can correct me later if I'm wrong) but I believe I understand what she was trying to say.
I don't think she was trying to say that Paul wasn't in the Spirit as he actually penned the words on paper but the rather she was saying that Paul's description of himself of being exasperated at not being able to obey.. it was then that during the experience itself that he was not walking the Spirit.
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-Thanks, JimB. Perhaps I was reading into what she said as what our local Pastor interprets it as: "See, even the Apostle Paul did what he knew he shouldn't; Paul's condition in Romans 7 is that of normal Adventists. We will not stop sinning until Jesus comes in the clouds at His second coming. -That's when we become the new creature the Scriptures speak about. He changes us when He comes at the Second Coming in the clouds."
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How many inspired letters did he write before Romans?
I did NOT ask: "How many inspired letters" did Paul "write before Romans".
I was answering Cop and I am sorry your pastor would preach such a thing. He would lead many people to accept a powerless Laodicean condition as something that is Biblical.
Did you know the word wretched is used only two times in the Bible? One is in Romans 7 and the other is in Revelation 3. I do not believe this is just a coincidental choice of words.
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Glen, I think maybe there's been a misunderstanding. I can't speak for Sybil (she can correct me later if I'm wrong) but I believe I understand what she was trying to say.
I don't think she was trying to say that Paul wasn't in the Spirit as he actually penned the words on paper but the rather she was saying that Paul's description of himself of being exasperated at not being able to obey.. it was then that during the experience itself that he was not walking the Spirit.
Thank you, Jim. You are correct.
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Some will read through the last couple of pages and wonder why the strong response to the idea that Romans seven is Paul talking about his experience after conversion. I will explain. The "Evangelical gospel" makes an excuse for sin. It teaches that one is saved in sin. It teaches that if one "believes" then he is saved even if he sins. This teaching has come into God's church. It must be met. God does not save man in sin, but from sin. The Bible is clear from Genesis to Revelation. Paul is clear in all of his writings. One only needs to read Romans eight to understand. That is why Sister Sybil has posted the whole of chapter eight twice now. And it is why the title of this thread is Romans 7 and 8. Seven is Paul's experience when he came under conviction of sin. Eight is Paul's experience after conversion.
For many years here, I have attempted to teach this truth from the Bible, but now that the Spirit of Prophecy has been used in an attempt to undo the truth, I will present what is said so that all may understand that the Spirit of Prophecy does not agree with a converted man sinning. It is true that a converted man may sin AFTER he takes his eyes off of Jesus, but not when he is abiding in Jesus. When truly converted a man is a partaker of the divine nature and escapes the corruption that is in the world. Here is a statement that helps us to understand the problem is in the heart when there is sin, the unconverted heart.
There is no safety for any man, young or old, unless he feels the necessity of seeking God for counsel at every step. Those only who maintain close communion with God will learn to place His estimate upon men, to reverence the pure, the good, the humble, and the meek. The heart must be garrisoned as was that of Joseph. Then temptations to depart from integrity will be met with decision: 'How then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?' The strongest temptation is no excuse for sin. No matter how severe the pressure brought to bear upon you, sin is your own act. The seat of the difficulty is the unrenewed heart." AH 331
Mark this point carefully, for it reveals the error that many cling to. The heart of the converted Christian has been cleansed and purified by the blood of Christ and is the possession of Christ as long as the man clings to Christ. If the man allows his mind to be diverted from Jesus, then the Spirit does not stay and the man is left without power to resist the smallest temptation. "The seat of he difficulty (sin) is the unrenewed heart." This does not mean that the heart had never been renewed, converted, it means that it did not retain its purity, its conversion. When a man steps outside of Christ, the heart is no longer held by Jesus. He then is outside of the heart knocking on the door wanting back in. One does not retain his justification to life when he sins a known sin. The heart must be renewed and cleansed by the blood of Jesus. Repentance is a free gift from God, but it only comes in response to a confession of sin and a desire to be forgiven. It is "the goodness of God (that) leadeth thee to repentance?" Romans 2:4.
There is a popular teaching that the heart is defiled even after conversion and it will only be pure after probation closes. This is a lie. The heart when fully given to Jesus is as white as snow. "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9. But, it must be continually given to Christ, or it will revert back to the carnal heart.
"There is not an impulse of our nature, not a faculty of the mind or an inclination of the heart, but needs to be, moment by moment, under the control of the Spirit of God. There is not a blessing which God bestows upon man, nor a trial which he permits to befall him, but Satan both can and will seize upon it to tempt, to harass, and destroy the soul, if we give him the least advantage. Therefore however great one's spiritual light, however much he may enjoy of the divine favor and blessing, he should ever walk humbly before the Lord, pleading in faith that God will direct every thought and control every impulse." MYP 62.
"All who profess godliness are under the most sacred obligation to guard the spirit, and to exercise self- control under the greatest provocation. The burdens placed upon Moses were very great; few men will ever be so severely tried as he was; yet this was not allowed to excuse his sin. God has made ample provision for His people; and if they rely upon His strength, they will never become the sport of circumstances. The strongest temptation cannot excuse sin. However great the pressure brought to bear upon the soul, transgression is our own act. It is not in the power of earth or hell to compel any one to do evil. Satan attacks us at our weak points, but we need not be overcome. However severe or unexpected the assault, God has provided help for us, and in His strength we may conquer." Patriarchs and Prophets 421.
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Post by Colporteur removed by Admin.
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It would be good to make the study of conversion a high priority since there is so much error in the churches. Here is a whole article that will prove to be a blessing for all who want to know what we must do to be saved. Learn of Me (http://remnant-online.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=306:qlearn-of-meq&catid=80:present-truth&Itemid=174)
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If a person retains salvation while sinning as some to be saying here I'm left with a couple of questions....
Why were Adam and Eve removed from the garden of Eden after only eating a piece of fruit?
Why was Moses denied entrance into the Promised land only because he lost his temper for a moment?
Contrary to what I understand scripture to be saying it appears that some believe that a good tree can indeed produce bad fruit and light and darkness can dwell together.
Is the tree a perfect analogy? Sanctification is progressive work of a lifetime. Is a person a bad tree and then one day instantaneously a good tree that only has good and perfect fruit or does the tree convert over one fruit at a time or maybe some fruit at a time until it becomes the perfect tree ?
No one said Jim that there are no consequnences for sin. Look at David and Bathsheba.
Jim, I believe this boils down to the true direction of the life and the heart condition. Someone who is ultimately saved is not looking to excuse sin in the life. If it happens he is sorry and he is growing more like Christ every day. The question is not, is it ok to sin. That has been clearly answered. The question is, does a child walking to His daddy and stumbling get kicked away and disinherited or is he picked back up and encouraged as a child of God ? Can you imagine a baby learning to walk and a daddy saying "come on child you can do it" and then when the child falls father says "you are none of mine." And when the child gets back up the father says "you are mine" and if the child trips again the father saying, "you are not mine." Until the child can walk without ever stumbling he is not converted ? That would be cruel ! That sounds like the same tone as eternal hellfire. I hope no one here believes this.
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The words posted here http://remnant-online.com/smf/index.php?topic=742.msg151671#msg151671 related to "curse" have been changed to "angry." I misquoted Colporteur and apologize for the unintentional misquote.
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I am a little reluctant to get into this discussion. It appears that people are firmly settled in their positions, but I will say this much: I believe that the underlying issue is the character of God. I do not believe God has His people on yo yo strings and pulls us in and out of our salvation as we grow in our walk with Jesus and struggle with our fallen natures, which do not suddenly disappear when we are baptized. We have been grafted into the family of God. I agree with Colporteur. Even as human parents we do not cast aside our children and banish them from the family when every time they do something wrong. Or some describe God's people as the army of God. Even a worldly army does not kick out a soldier when he misses his target or stumbles when he marches. It takes time to grow in Christ. As Colporteur God knows the heart. He is the only one who determines who is truly converted and who is not and He alone is responsible.
"Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." (Phillipians 1: 6. (I think that for me it will take that long). :)
It occurs to me that we need to be careful that we are not actually judging God and the work He is doing in another person.
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I've been reluctant to get into it for some of the same reasons, Larry. I fear that at times those who have been wrestling with this topic have been talking past each other, and the limitations of this form of communication have caused misunderstandings. I am of a similar mind as you are, Larry, but I admit that I do not completely understand it. One thing to ask ourselves is, am I like David, who, though he made terrible mistakes, sincerely wanted to serve God; and when confronted with his sins, immediately repented? Or am I like Saul, who continually made excuses, and rebelled against reproof? Am I like Peter, who really loved the Lord, but had too much confidence in himself? He repented when reality hit him in the face. Or am I like Judas, who loved himself more than he did anyone else? He committed suicide when reality hit him in the face.
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Is the tree a perfect analogy? Sanctification is progressive work of a lifetime.
Christ thought so, it suited His purpose, and used that analogy masterfully. The Bible record of Christ growing up is that He was made perfect by the things He suffered (endured). -And He represented humanity, inhabited by divinity; thus it may be with us. EGW clearly challenges the Pastors and Bible workers to closely examine candidates for Baptism; to search them closely, to see whether they have ceased to sin. If the Baptismal Instruction were given by those possessed by God's Spirit, and His life as a man the sole example and authority, perhaps there would be fewer of Satan's people joined to "our" churches. I say this, because I was one of the latter. I retained spirits of devils as a professing SDA Christian into my adult life; I was NOT a Christian; born of His Spirit. I too, press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Philippians 3:14
We must hasten to redeem the time and get back to basics, the fundamentals of the Christ-life. During the Anti-typical Day of Atonement we simply don't "have time to sin"(sic), and the sooner we give the trumpet that certain sound, by circumspect lives ourselves (humanity inhabited by divinity), the sooner we can go HOME !
The obedience that Christ rendered is exactly the obedience that God requires from human beings today. It was the obedience of a son. He served His Father in willingness and freedom, and with love, because it was the right thing for Him to do. “I delight to do Thy will, O My God,” He declared; “yea, Thy law is within My heart.” Thus we are to serve God..... The Signs of the Times January 25, 1899.09
Are we truly "taking advantage" of the power God has given to become as "son of God" (John 1:12)? One of the definitions in the 1828 Noah Webster's Dictionary is: "One that tears by violence."
....from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. Matthew 11:12
“The kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.” This violence takes in the whole heart. To be double minded is to be unstable. Resolution, self-denial and consecrated effort are required for the work of preparation. The understanding and the conscience may be united; but if the will is not set to work, we shall make a failure. Every faculty and feeling must be engaged. Ardor and earnest prayer must take the place of listlessness and indifference. Only by earnest, determined effort and faith in the merits of Christ can we overcome, and gain the kingdom of heaven. Our time for work is short. Christ is soon to come the second time (The Youth’s Instructor, May 24, 1900).
…Nothing will God accept of you but an indwelling Jesus; Christ alone… Manuscript Releases Volume Sixteen 236.01
—Joseph illustrates Christ. Jesus came to His own, but His own received Him not. He was rejected and despised, because His acts were righteous, and His consistent, self-denying life was a continual rebuke upon those who professed piety, but whose lives were corrupt. Joseph’s integrity and virtue were fiercely assailed, and she who would lead him astray could not prevail, therefore her hatred was strong against the virtue and integrity which she could not corrupt, and she testified falsely against him. The innocent suffered because of his righteousness. He was cast into prison because of his virtue. Joseph was sold to his enemies by his own brethren for a small sum of money. The Son of God was sold to His bitterest enemies by one of His own disciples. Jesus was meek and holy. His was a life of unexampled self-denial, goodness, and holiness. He was not guilty of any wrong. Yet false witnesses were hired to testify against Him. He was hated because He had been a faithful reprover of sin and corruption. Joseph’s brethren stripped him of his coat of many colors. The executioners of Jesus cast lots for His seamless coat (Spiritual Gifts 3:174).
The life of God was manifested in the flesh, and was the living word, and the life of God was manifested in human speech. The human agent who becomes familiar with the Scriptures and who is a doer of the Word, will find that the Word is interwoven with the life of the soul; for he will have a personal experience in the things of God… When surrounded with temptations, the Holy Spirit will bring to his mind the very words with which to meet the temptation at the very moment when they are most needed, and he can use them effectually with commanding power. The apostle says, "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly… The Signs of the Times 09-05-95.03
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Is the tree a perfect analogy? Sanctification is progressive work of a lifetime.
Christ thought so, and used that analogy masterfully. The Bible record of Christ growing up is that He was made perfect by the things He suffered (endured). -And He represented humanity, inhabited by divinity; thus it may be with us. EGW clearly challenges the Pastors and Bible workers to closely examine candidates for Baptism; to search them closely, to see whether they have ceased to sin. If the Baptismal Instruction were given by those possesed by God's Spirit, and His life as a man the sole example and authority, perhaps there would be fewer of Satan's people joined to "our" churches. I say this, because I was one of them. I retained spirits of devils as a professing SDA Christian into my adult life. We must hasten to redeem the time and get back to basics, the fundamentals of the Christ-life. During the Anti-typical Day of Atonement we simply don't "have time to sin"(sic), and the sooner we give the trumpet that certain sound, by circumspect lives, ourselves, the sooner we can go HOME !
I agree that Christ used the analogy masterfully, however He did not say the analogy of a tree was perfect and one cannot say that He thought it was. It is a good one but you can take any analogy too far and even miss the point. How about the Rich Man and Lazarus ? Symbols and analogies are useful tools but they are never perfect.
Webster College Dictionary- "analogy" "A similarity between like features of two things"....."a form of reasoning in which one thing is inferred to be similar to another thing in a certain respect, on the basic of known similarites in other respects." emphasis mine.
Do you believe that sanctification in terms of total victory over every sin is necessarily instantaneous ? In other words when a person has been closely inspected before baptism and deemed by the most diserning eye does this mean they are perfect in every way regarding a victorious Christian life ? If so we only baptize the 144,000 as they have arrived. Don't get me wrong I agree that there is almost total failure in terms of baptizing candidates. The pastor here said he would baptize anyone who walks in off the street and wants to be baptized. Down at Hartland College they take their candidates through at least two complete series of Bible studies before even considering baptism. Of course there are other criteria.
I doubt that few trees ever went from being a bad tree to a totally good tree with perfect fruit, in a moment. Does it happen and must it happen ? absolutelty ! But remember that the Gardener took the tree that was not producing and dung it and gave it time to produce. Unfortunately it did not produce but if it had it would have been a process of bearing fruit not a bad three one day and a luxurious, edenic perfect fruit bearing tree the next. If we expect trees to turn from being perfectly evil to perfectly pure in a moment without a transitional period we will be sorely disappointed, repeatedly.
If we are determined to make an analogy fit perfectly in every respect then every tree bearing good fruit would never have an apple (for instance) that was wormy or rotten. The gardener may pick off the bad fruit but even this is a process. The question is not whether or not a good tree produces good fruit, as we are told we would know them by their fruits. The question is ...does a bad tree go from being a bad three with bad fruit to a edenic perfect tree with fruit that does not even have a blemish in one day ?
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Is the tree a perfect analogy? Sanctification is progressive work of a lifetime.
Cp, I agree with you that sanctification is the work of a lifetime. So I'm happy that we agree with that. However, yes, I believe that the tree is the perfect analogy otherwise Christ would not have used it.
Here is what I know. Sin causes an automatic separation between the sinner and Christ. Peter learned that the hard way when he took his eyes off Christ while walking on the water. Did Christ abandon him and turn a walk away? Absolutely not!! Christ was there as soon as Peter cried out for mercy. If Christ completely castoff every sinner no one would ever be saved.
Here is what I know...
Joh_8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Correct me if I'm wrong but as I understand what you believe you'd say that when we sin Christ does not leave the heart but still dwells inside. Yet, Christ says that we cannot serve two masters. So I'm having difficulties making those two concepts mesh. I also do not find a Bible text that says Christ remains in the heart of one who has sinned and hasn't repented. The Bible says He stands outside the door and knocks and if Christ is not in the heart how is it that he or she still has salvation?
If a person is abiding in Christ and Christ in him then he has the mind of Christ and he is partaking in the divine nature.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
2Pe_1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
How does one have the mind of Christ and the divine nature while sinning? He certainly hasn't escaped corruption.
Let me ask again about the two examples I gave. If one still has salvation after sinning and before repenting what is your understanding of God casting out Adam and Eve and not only prohibiting Moses from entering the promised land but also laying him to rest?
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Let me ask again about the two examples I gave. If one still has salvation after sinning and before repenting what is your understanding of God casting out Adam and Eve and not only prohibiting Moses from entering the promised land but also laying him to rest?
First, did God end Adam and Eve's probation when they sinned ? The same with Moses. There are consequences to sin but provision was made for a probationary period, a second chance, in terms of salvation. That means that after they sinned there was a space of time where a determination would be made as to whether they would saved or lost. Adam and Eve were cast form the garden whether they repented or not. Were they cast from the garden because they were lost or because they sinned ? if I'm not mistaken they were cast from the garden after they had repented. Moses repented but he still was kept back from the promised land. If Moses was a type that meant that all who sinned would be kept from heaven, then it would be true that all who have sinned and repented would likewise be kept back from heaven. I know you do not believe that. Do you think those examples are making your intended point ? We agree there are consequences to sin, serious ones. We also agree that if one continues in sin they forfeit salvation and reject the provision made.
If one truly is in a saving relationship will he not have a repentant heart even WHEN he falls ? There is no sinning and being saved if the heart is traveling along a path of unrepentance and rebellion. Having said that, does not repentance begin in the heart even though we may not be able to tell right away if the person has repented, neither is it our call. I am not convinced that all sin is intentional rebellion against God even if it is known sin. The heart may be right with God and yet the flesh is weak and God is teaching the soul to lean more on him for deliverance. Maybe in some cases over eating, for instance, may fall into that category. Sometimes people do that because they are suffering and their past has been such a mess that they eat for comfort. Does that mean their heart is in rebellion with God ? Yes they need to change and get victory but the condition of the heart is the question.
I said several posts ago that I was going to stop posting on this thread and I have continued. I think of this every time I post here. Some would suggest I feed off of debating and I would like this to be another instance where I reveal otherwise. Our discussion seems to be alot of repeating anyway.
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First, did God end Adam and Eve's probation when they sinned ?
Cp, I don't think we are in disagreement over probation. Like I said earlier if God would cast us off completely when we sin no one would be saved.
Adam and Eve were cast form the garden whether they repented or not. Were they cast from the garden because they were lost or because they sinned?
This is where we disagree. I see no difference based on the following verse.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Actually, Paul says it better than I can in the first few verses before verse 23. This speaks perfectly to my point of not serving two masters.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
We also agree that if one continues in sin they forfeit salvation and reject the provision made.
How many sins does it take before Romans 6:23 becomes a reality?
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Here is more food for thought:
The Saviour said, "Except a man be born from above," unless he shall receive a new heart, new desires, purposes, and motives, leading to a new life, "he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3, margin. The idea that it is necessary only to develop the good that exists in man by nature, is a fatal deception. "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." 1 Corinthians 2:14; 3:7. Of Christ it is written, "In Him was life; and the life was the light of men"--the only "name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." John 1:4; Acts 4:12. {SC 18.2}
It is not enough to perceive the loving-kindness of God, to see the benevolence, the fatherly tenderness, of His character. It is not enough to discern the wisdom and justice of His law, to see that it is founded upon the eternal principle of love. Paul the apostle saw all this when he exclaimed, "I consent unto the law that it is good." "The law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." But he added, in the bitterness of his soul-anguish and despair, "I am carnal, sold under sin." Romans 7:16, 12, 14. He longed for the purity, the righteousness, to which in himself he was powerless to attain, and cried out, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death?" Romans 7:24, margin. Such is the cry that has gone up from burdened hearts in all lands and in all ages. To all, there is but one answer, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. {SC 19.1}
Howdy my dear Sister. Its so good to be able to talk with you all again. I've thought of you, and prayed for you, often while I was unable to get on-line. I hope you are dong well.
My wife and I read from the SOP every evening during our worship. We have just started going through SC again. It is my favorite book from Sister White and I love it! We read these beautiful word just tonight:
[/It is impossible for us, of ourselves, to escape from the pit of sin in which we are sunken. Our hearts are evil, and we cannot change them. "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." "The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Job 14:4; Romans 8:7. Education, culture, the exercise of the will, human effort, all have their proper sphere, but here they are powerless. They may produce an outward correctness of behavior, but they cannot change the heart; they cannot purify the springs of life. There must be a power working from within, a new life from above, before men can be changed from sin to holiness. That power is Christ. His grace alone can quicken the lifeless faculties of the soul, and attract it to God, to holiness. SC 18.1
It is not enough to perceive the loving-kindness of God, to see the benevolence, the fatherly tenderness, of His character. It is not enough to discern the wisdom and justice of His law, to see that it is founded upon the eternal principle of love. Paul the apostle saw all this when he exclaimed, "I consent unto the law that it is good." "The law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." But he added, in the bitterness of his soul-anguish and despair, "I am carnal, sold under sin." Romans 7:16, 12, 14. He longed for the purity, the righteousness, to which in himself he was powerless to attain, and cried out, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death?" Romans 7:24, margin. Such is the cry that has gone up from burdened hearts in all lands and in all ages. To all, there is but one answer, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. SC 19.2
Its true that like minds (controlled by the Holy Spirit) are led to the same book! Praise the LORD!!
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Amen!! It is beautiful!
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There are times when it is very necessary to step back, have a prayerful, studious day immersed in Scripture and Inspiration. That is what I did today - laying aside everything else - with a holy expectation of coming to a better understanding of what is written for our admonition, for our advancement and ultimately our salvation. From every angle of this topic, what we believe it says, has eternal consequences. That is a heavy thought and because of the weight of our beliefs, we must be found on the right side of the issue. We cannot afford anything else.
The past week or so has been very difficult on the hearts and minds of my brothers and sisters, to say nothing of those two men I work closest with, and me. At one point today I thought of Christian forums in general, and how many have been turned into a Christianized sport of combativeness, baseless opinions, presumptions, statements based on tradition, culture and entertainment. Some are even associated with our denomination in which a “thus saith the Lord” is not taken all that seriously and Inspiration is all but discarded. I am glad to say that is not who we are. And further, I pray that is something we will never become. By the all-powerful grace of God may we remain faithful and true to His Word and the messengers He sends for added understanding of what it is He is telling us. I want to know and have no doubt in my mind that those reading and posting want to know as well. No one wants to come up short.
An unaided mind can comprehend the commonalities of life but spiritual things are spiritually discerned. Yes, you have heard it a thousand times, yet it remains true and even more so when dealing with the foundation of Biblical faith and doctrine that runs through Romans 7 & 8. We are in the thick of discovering them.
Today I spent a substantial amount of time in the topics, Justification by Faith, Abide in Me and I in You, Romans 7 & 8, and the majority of the book of Romans and anything Inspiration has to say on any of them. I wanted to meet what I believe to be erroneous beliefs recently stated in our topic. This is what I found and because there is absolutely no desire to impart my own reasoning, Inspiration will speak for itself:
A few days ago, Carla posted this:
A converted person is not a perfect person, otherwise Jesus would have come already. My goal is perfection, here and now, before Jesus comes, but there are times when I do that which I hate.
King David was a converted person as a youth. Did he go back and forth from being converted to being unconverted? No, there were times he sinned. But that did not change him into an unconverted person.
Inspiration says this:
David repented and was reconverted.
Many commit the error of trying to define minutely the fine points of distinction between justification and sanctification. Into the definitions of these two terms they often bring their own ideas and speculations. Why try to be more minute than is Inspiration on the vital question of righteousness by faith? Why try to work out every minute point, as if the salvation of the soul depended upon all having exactly your understanding of this matter? All cannot see in the same line of vision. You are in danger of making a world of an atom, and an atom of a world. {CTr 150.2}
As penitent sinners, contrite before God, discern Christ’s atonement in their behalf, and accept this atonement as their only hope in this life and the future life, their sins are pardoned. This is justification by faith. Every believing soul is to conform his or her will entirely to God’s will, and keep in a state of repentance and contrition, exercising faith in the atoning merits of the Redeemer, and advancing from strength to strength, from glory to glory. Pardon and justification are one and the same thing. . . . {CTr 150.3}
Justification is the opposite of condemnation. God’s boundless mercy is exercised toward those who are wholly undeserving. He forgives transgressions and sins for the sake of Jesus, who has become the propitiation for our sins. Through faith in Christ the guilty transgressor is brought into favor with God and into the strong hope of life eternal. . . . {CTr 150.4}
David was pardoned of his transgression because he humbled his heart before God in repentance and contrition of soul and believed that God’s promise to forgive would be fulfilled. He confessed his sin, repented, and was reconverted. In the rapture of the assurance of forgiveness he exclaimed, “Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.” The blessing comes because of pardon; pardon comes through faith that the sin, confessed and repented of, is borne by the great Sin-bearer. Thus from Christ cometh all our blessings. His death is an atoning sacrifice for our sins. He is the great medium through whom we receive the mercy and favor of God. He, then, is indeed the Originator, the Author, as well as the Finisher, of our faith.—Manuscript 21, 1891 (Manuscript Releases, vol. 9, pp. 300, 301).
Regarding conversion and reconversion, I found this:
We need to study our Bibles, and learn daily lessons at the feet of Christ. The formation of character is an individual, personal work; and in this work of character building, it is the privilege of every youth in the midst of abounding iniquity, to make it manifest that he is humble in heart, that he is imbued with the Spirit of God. {YI, April 27, 1909 par. 10}
Christ is watching to see what spirit we will bring into our service for him. If we realize this, we shall seek to be reconverted daily. Our influence will grow sweeter, and no trace of the spirit that Satan loves to exercise will be seen in our lives. The blessedness of true religion will be revealed in unselfish, compassionate labor for others.
Mrs. E. G. White.
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{YI, April 27, 1909 par. 11}
Today, Brother Larry posted this:
I am a little reluctant to get into this discussion. It appears that people are firmly settled in their positions, but I will say this much: I believe that the underlying issue is the character of God. I do not believe God has His people on yo yo strings and pulls us in and out of our salvation as we grow in our walk with Jesus and struggle with our fallen natures, which do not suddenly disappear when we are baptized. We have been grafted into the family of God. I agree with Colporteur. Even as human parents we do not cast aside our children and banish them from the family when every time they do something wrong. Or some describe God's people as the army of God. Even a worldly army does not kick out a soldier when he misses his target or stumbles when he marches. It takes time to grow in Christ. As Colporteur God knows the heart. He is the only one who determines who is truly converted and who is not and He alone is responsible.
"Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." (Phillipians 1: 6. (I think that for me it will take that long). :)
It occurs to me that we need to be careful that we are not actually judging God and the work He is doing in another person.
And Wally followed with this:
I've been reluctant to get into it for some of the same reasons, Larry. I fear that at times those who have been wrestling with this topic have been talking past each other, and the limitations of this form of communication have caused misunderstandings. I am of a similar mind as you are, Larry, but I admit that I do not completely understand it. One thing to ask ourselves is, am I like David, who, though he made terrible mistakes, sincerely wanted to serve God; and when confronted with his sins, immediately repented? Or am I like Saul, who continually made excuses, and rebelled against reproof? Am I like Peter, who really loved the Lord, but had too much confidence in himself? He repented when reality hit him in the face. Or am I like Judas, who loved himself more than he did anyone else? He committed suicide when reality hit him in the face.
And Inspiration says this:
But while God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins or neglecting known duties. God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {RH, November 4, 1890 par. 4} {FW 100.1}
The statement, in order for man to retain justification clearly presupposes when he has it, he can lose it.
Earlier, we read: "Pardon and justification are one in the same thing." Is it logical to then say each time we sin, we lose our justification and must be rejustified?
It is not God who has His people on yo yo strings. We place ourselves on them.
Another thing I found is this from 12MR 40: one blot upon the character, one sin unconfessed and unrepented of, will close for you the gates of the city of God.
In context, here is the quote:
Be careful not to make any move that will retard this work. There is much to be done, but the Lord would not have you or me fret our lives away, and lose our faith and courage because this work does not move as fast as we think it ought to. The Lord will help us if we will keep the word of His patience. I sometimes ask myself whether it can be my duty to go on writing the same things over and over again, just because our people will not heed what is already written. I do not wish to overtax myself and unbalance my mind by trying to perform impossibilities. {12MR 40.1}
Let us encourage our hearts in hope. Let us pray much and quietly wait for the Lord to do His work. Let us do what we can in simplicity and with the grace of Christ, not exercising our powers in things too high for us.--Letter 123, 1904, pp. 1, 2. (To J. E. White, March 29, 1904.) {12MR 40.2}
Do not appeal to your own sympathies. Do not dwell upon what Brother J has done or has neglected to do. Humble your own heart before God. You are not to sit in judgment upon the case of others until you show greater wisdom in making straight paths for your own feet. You may say, "Does Sister White think me all bad?" No, I do not; but one blot upon the character, one sin unconfessed and unrepented of, will close for you the gates of the city of God. You had light; you had knowledge, but did not choose to appropriate it. It meant someone else, not you. I love your soul, and I beseech you not to be deceived, but to see that you must follow the Lord with undivided heart. {12MR 40.3}
The Saviour chose Judas, not because he was perfect in character, but notwithstanding his defects. He would give him the advantage of His own lessons of godliness, His own perfect and righteous example, that he might choose the beauty of holiness. Judas was always thinking that he would reform, but then he thought that his good qualities would counterbalance his hereditary and cultivated traits which were evil. {12MR 41.1} Letter 17, 1891, pp. 14, 15. (To a leading worker, July 20, 1891.)
White Estate Washington, D. C. May 20, 1982 {12MR 41.2}
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I believe that we must read the Bible just as its written and that Paul is speaking of his life after conversion. While I have not read each and every post in this thread, and being just a dumb ol' country boy, it appears to me that all here are agreed that a Christian will not, and can not, continue in known sin. Is this correct? Does anyone believe differently?
It also appears that some are fearful that if it is accepted that Paul is speaking in the present tense of his daily battle with sin as he grows in Christ, that many will believe the heresy that a Christian can continue committing known sin until Christ's return. Is this correct?
We are told in God's word that we can have assurance of salvation, that it not an off-again, on-again salvation. But this appears to be what some are saying. Does anyone here believe this?
When I was first directed to look at my life, the direction I was going, and the eternal results of the way I was living, I looked at God's Ten Commandments and saw that I was doomed. At that moment, it felt as if all my sins were being loaded upon my back and I really felt felt as if something was pressing me into the floor. I was directed to Jesus and, as I looked upon Him, my heart broke as I saw that I, and I alone, had caused His suffering by my sins. I cried out to Him for forgiveness, begged for His mercy and asked Him to save me from my sins. At that moment, I felt the burden on my back literly fall away. Though I was crying like a baby, I felt such joy as I had never experienced. I knew He had forgiven me and taken my sins away. From that moment, He changed me and removed many of my sinful habits and my desire to do them. I truely felt like a new man, a different person and I was in love with Jesus, my saviour.
From that instant, I had a different outlook on life, new desires and shame for my past. I began attending church whenever it was opened and reading my Bible in order to learn His will for my life. But for several months afterwards, I continued to smoke and drink. As I discovered that my Lord did not wish for me to do these things, and with His help and strength, I put these things out of my life. Was I really born-again at that time, or was I lstill lost? Did I not really have salvation because I was smoking and drinking alcohol?
As far as I know, no one here is sinless and has reach perfection as yet. (I defintely know I haven't!) I believe that if a Christian does sin, the Holy Spirit will speak to his heart and convict him of his sin. If he refuses to obey the H.S. and repent, confess, and forsake his sin, he is rejecting God and will eventually be left in his sins. Without God's work upon man's soul, he can not repent, he can not confess his sin, he has no desire for forgiveness, no desire for righteouness, no longing for holiness...in other words, we can do nothing without Christ. I believe that this is what Paul is saying.
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I believe that we must read the Bible just as its written and that Paul is speaking of his life after conversion. While I have not read each and every post in this thread, and being just a dumb ol' country boy, it appears to me that all here are agreed that a Christian will not, and can not, continue in known sin. Is this correct? Does anyone believe differently?
It also appears that some are fearful that if it is accepted that Paul is speaking in the present tense of his daily battle with sin as he grows in Christ, that many will believe the heresy that a Christian can continue committing known sin until Christ's return. Is this correct?
We are told in God's word that we can have assurance of salvation, that it not an off-again, on-again salvation. But this appears to be what some are saying. Does anyone here believe this?
As sinful humans, we place ourselves on Brother Lyon's example of a yo yo, off-again, on-again salvation cycle because of sin. God does not do it to us. Please read the post just above yours to see what Inspiration says.
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We are told in God's word that we can have assurance of salvation, that it not an off-again, on-again salvation. But this appears to be what some are saying. Does anyone here believe this?
Dear brother, the assurance of salvation is precious. We may want to consider where we find it and on what basis it is given. I believe it is based upon a full surrender and the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit in the heart of the sinner. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit. We must be born of the Spirit. If we do not actively seek Jesus, if we allow our mind to wander away from Jesus, there is no assurance that we shall find Him again. It is not that He has foresaken us when we sin a known sin, as Jim stated, but He does not remain in a heart that is not fully given to Him. Like Peter in the water, Jesus is reaching out waiting for us to invite Him back into our hearts. We do not believe in once saved always saved or any form of it. We may confess our sinfulness and inability to do any good thing but, unless fully surrendered and born of His Spirit, we have no power apart from Jesus. In order to do any good thing, one must be connected to Christ, filled with His Spirit. If we have not His Spirit we are none of His. I think you can recognize that all I have said is from Scripture. But, then if we all understood that, we would not be disagreeing on the conditions of salvation. You may want to review some of the posts to see the Scriptural basis for salvation.
Without God's work upon man's soul, he can not repent, he can not confess his sin, he has no desire for forgiveness, no desire for righteouness, no longing for holiness...in other words, we can do nothing without Christ. I believe that this is what Paul is saying.
Amen! That is exactly what he is saying throughout the New Testament. But, it does not end there. Paul, like Jesus, makes it very clear that salvation is dependent upon an entire surrender of the will to Jesus. Paul unlike Jesus, comes at it from many different directions in his effort to meet the error that has come into the church since the ascension of Jesus. Romans is a very good Book to understand what Paul says is necessary for eternal life. And he makes it perfectly clear that the requirement does not stop with one's initial conversion, it must be maintained day by day, moment by moment. And, while Paul's teaching can be hard, the teaching of our Lord is simple enough for a child to understand. So, even though this has been covered in detail in many of the forums and topics here, we will now repeat what Jesus and Paul have taught.
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I believe this boils down to the true direction of the life and the heart condition of one who continues to crawl? Someone who is ultimately saved is not looking to excuse sin in the life. If it happens he is sorry and he is growing more like Christ every day. The question is not, is it ok to sin. That has been clearly answered. The question is, does a child walking to His daddy and stumbling get kicked away and disinherited or is he picked back up and encouraged as a child of God ? Can you imagine a baby learning to walk and a daddy saying "come on child you can do it" and then when the child falls father says "you are none of mine." And when the child gets back up the father says "you are mine" and if the child trips again the father saying, "you are not mine." Until the child can walk without ever stumbling he is not converted ? That would be cruel ! That sounds like the same tone as eternal hellfire. I hope no one here believes this.
"....this boils down to the true direction of the life and the heart condition of one who continues to crawl?" Brother, I think you have the truth of it. - -How long do we plan to be a baby? What is "the true direction of the life and the heart condition" of one who keeps stumbling? ....he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 2 Peter 1:9 - -BLIND babies who claim to be born again, converted, who lack either virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness, or love, or all of the above. If any one of us continue in this vein, do we intend to take it to heaven? Those who have not the Spirit of God, all claims to being a baby notwithstanding, will not enter there.
....ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Romans 8:9
…Christ must dwell in your hearts, as the blood is in the body, and circulate there as a vitalizing power. On this subject we cannot be too urgent. Testimonies for the Church Volume Seven 189.02
My brother, my sister, God's purpose for you is that you shall live a life that will make others better--a life which will show that Christ is formed within.... Reflecting Christ 107.05
God's purpose in filling us with His fulness through the impartation of the Spirit of Christ is that we grow up, henceforth be no more children, tossed to and from, and carried about with every wind of doctrine. I'm here encouraging everyone of us to look to Jesus. I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 1 Corinthians 2:2 has to do with each of us comprehending that we take up our cross, daily denying self; letting Him take what He came to this earth to nail on the cross, forever -- our sins of the past as well as "self". All the good works that are righteousness, purest LOVE, are ours, IN CHRIST, right now. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Do I believe in instant Sanctification? No; however, the sooner we let Jesus possess us with His (s)Spirit, the sooner we are His instrument, a sharpened sickle for the harvest; so full of His presence and character, that the lost will recognize us as having been with Jesus, and are a window to heaven, made a part of the Great Plan of Redemption. How can we be Saviours of mankind like our Master unless WE overcome sin, ourselves?
There will be agents of Satan who will induce to sin; but the steady soul who loves and fears God, will be as firm in his Heaven-inspired purpose as was Daniel, and will not be swerved from his convictions of duty. There will always be those in high places who have never subdued and overcome self. These Satan uses as decoys. They flatter the pleasure-lovers by uniting with them. They court their approval. God has a work for his faithful ones to do, to stand in defense of the truth like faithful Noah. They will warn and entreat, and show by their works their faith. They stand as God’s agents, as Noah stood, in noble, whole-souled fidelity, the moral character untarnished. They are saviours of men like their Master. They will be exposed to hatred and reproach as was their Master. Enmity will be aroused, hatred and false accusations will pour like a torrent around them to wrench them from their high moral position, but they have their foundation on the Rock, and remain unmoved at their chosen post of duty, warning, entreating, rebuking sin and pleasure-lovers by their moral rectitude and circumspect conversation. God’s servants who will hear the “Well done” from his divine lips, will be heroic ministers of righteousness, although they may not preach in the desk. They are constantly ministering, loyal to their sense of God’s claims upon them, jealous of their own selves, lest they shall dishonor the Lord that taught them to stand in defense of right and duty at any loss to themselves. This is the work of the Christian soldier. That which will stand under the pressure of temptation is heart religion. The whole heart must be given to God; if any portion of it be withheld, we have no right to claim the promise of being the favored sons and daughters of God. Counsels to Physicians and Medical Students 5.02
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 THAT we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ.... Ephesians 4:13-15
How strongly and brightly shines the mercy and lovingkindness of God in His dealings toward His heritage.... All heaven has the deepest interest in our welfare, that Satan shall not control us and conform us to his character. “For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall” (Malachi 4:1, 2)....
This Day With God, Page 123.03
Sometimes it just seems that we want to leave all the growing up, as Christians, to the time described above, "as calves in the stall." We are each called to ....be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Ephesians 6:10-13
Brothers and Sisters, I love this fellowship of dialogue and humbly express my appreciation for your patience. Let's continue praying for one another that we may be healed. We're told that Christ healed not only physically, but spiritually when He walked on this earth.
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Brothers and Sisters, I love this fellowship of dialogue and humbly express my appreciation for your patience. Let's continue praying for one another that we may be healed. We're told that Christ healed not only physically, but spiritually when He walked on this earth.
It is a blessing well beyond expression! Thank you, Glen!
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Amen, it is always a blessing when Christians are willing to study from Scripture and submit to its authority. Sadly, some rise up against it and are offended, but God has a people who love Him and keep His commandments. They will be known by their fruits. This is the manner in which we are to judge those who profess to be Christian and even those who do not. It is the truth that we have been given in Scripture.
Matthew
7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Notice how the Words of Jesus are confirmed by the Words of Paul.
Romans eight
8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
After telling of his failure to keep the law when conviction first came to his heart, Paul then tells of the power given to the true convert who with his mind is serving God instead of the flesh. He begins this with a description of who it is that has life, who is not under condemnation. It is not the one who professes to serve God, but who is serving God by walking in the Spirit, one who is filled with the Spirit. This is not human wisdom, but a "thus saith the Lord". As our Brother Cop said, "we must read the Bible just as its written."
8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
In Romans seven we read the Paul could not keep the law. "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." verse 23. Now, when filled with God's Spirit and walking in His Spirit, Paul has been delivered from his captivity to the law of sin and death. Notice the wording. It is important and overlooked by those who think one may sin and be saved. "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." To have life, to be set free from sin, one must be "in Christ Jesus". Thus saith the Lord "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you." John 15:4-7.
8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
The great deception that has come into the churches is that one is saved in sin, that one is saved while sinning, that one sin does not reveal a separation between Christ and the sinner. Thus saith the Lord "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23. Notice again that Christ is the key, He is the power. We must be abiding in Jesus to have life. It is "through Jesus Christ" that one has life.
8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Paul is telling us that if we are walking in the flesh, that is sin, we cannot please God. But, do not say that we have life when do not please God, that flies in the face of what Paul and Jesus are saying. Thus saith the Lord
8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Notice again what many fail to understand. Only those who have the Spirit of God in them are not walking in the flesh. This truth is not being acknowledged by many in the church. When this is understood the deception will be removed for many. There is life only for those who walk in the Spirit, because it is the only way one may have life, to have "the Spirit of God dwell in you." And "Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." This is a very narrow road, but it is a "thus saith the Lord." And as our Brother Cop has so correctly stated, we need to take the Bible as it is written. We are not at liberty to reject it because it does not agree with our experience or our understanding. It is true that there may be a verse or two that appears to be contrary to the truth, but one verse does not a doctrine make. We are to look at all of Scripture and then we shall not be deceived. In this post, we have not taken a verse out of context, but it can clearly be seen that what Paul is teaching is that we must be walking in the Spirit, not in the flesh to have eternal life. If we are walking in the flesh, sinning, then we are under condemnation. Thus saith the Lord, "If ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." Romans 8:13,14.
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It often is the case that Scripture is taken out of context and twisted to make it say something that it was not meant to. But, in the lesson here, we are not taking verses out of their context, we are presenting whole passages so that the truth can be seen. And, from other places in the Bible we find the same lesson. We must be born again continually to be justified in having eternal life, salvation. Thus saith the Lord "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." Galatians 5:24. And the same Apostle Paul who wrote Galatians and Romans wrote this. Thus saith the Lord "I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." 1 Cor. 9:27. When Paul says "body" what does he mean? He is talking about his flesh. The power of grace has been under estimated by most. When we allow God's grace into the heart, there is a "radical transformation" of character. The sinner becomes a new creature. But, a failure to understand why, leads to misunderstanding of what conversion is. The reason why there is a change in character is not because man has some innate power or goodness within. No, it is because the Holy Spirit has taken possession of the heart and mind. Thus saith the Lord "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus." Philippians 2:5. And again, as in Romans eight, notice how a man is able to keep his flesh under. Thus saith the Lord "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." Ezekiel 36:26,27. The honor and glory go to God, not to man. If we have Christ enthroned upon the heart, then we have power to obey. If we do not have His Spirit, we do not have power and cannot obey and we are none of His. What is needed? A reconversion, a new Spirit within. Christ is not in the heart of one who sins a known sin. He does not forsake the sinner, but pleads for entrance. He stands at the door knocking. It is only when the Spirit of God is IN the heart that we have eternal life. Thus saith the Lord "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus..." 2 Timothy 1:1.
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We have presented the same lesson from Jesus, Paul, and Ezekiel. Now, let us hear from the apostle that lived to see heresy come into the new church. He understood the deceptions and his teaching is even more needed today when excuses are made for sin. There is no excuse for sin. God has provided at great expense a solution for our sinful human nature. He has offered us His Son.
John tells us "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:7-9.
When we are converted we are born of His Spirit. We have a dual nature. In our fallen flesh we are partakers of His divine nature and therefore we are promised that we are given power to not sin. "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." 2 Peter 1:4. "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." 1 Corinthians 10:13. This is not human reasoning, but the sure Word of God. It is not taken out of context, but in harmony with all of Scripture. The wages of one sin remains what it always has been, death. We are granted a period of temporal life in which we may be reconciled to God. It is a process, but not as many believe. That period of probation remains open until we close it. We either choose to serve God and allow Him rule in the life, or we harden our hearts against the Spirit and then are left joined to our idols. While probation remains open, we have an advocate who will plead His blood for us when we sin. This does not excuse sin if it has not been confessed and forsaken. But, it does allow the sinner more time because of Christ's sacrifice. "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1 John 2:1. This is said to mean that one can be saved while sinning, but this is not what is being said by John. That would not be in harmony with all of Scripture. It means that those who profess to love and serve God have One who loves them in their sin and will advocate for more time.
Thus saith the Lord "There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. He spake also this parable; A certain [man] had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, [then] after that thou shalt cut it down." Luke 13:1-9. This is what it means to have an advocate or intercessor. It does not mean that one has life in his sin.
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Jesus has a message for our church today. It is a warning and a promise. But, before we look at that message, consider this. God had a people He called His own for two thousand years. Israel did not glorify God, but after turning back to God many times, would each time fall deeper into apostasy. Finally, when Jesus was born into this world, they were so deceived they put to death the Son of God. Satan rejoiced that he had so perverted the gospel truth that God's own people did not know that the Lamb represented Jesus and had to die.
Now, switch to our day. What has changed? Nothing. We, as a people, are just as blind as was Israel of old. Are you offended? Then listen to Jesus. Thus saith the Lord:
Revelation
3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Some would want me dead because I have presented the truth. But, it is, present truth. If anyone objects, do so, and I will present more that will reveal that is our condition. What does this message have to do with our current topic? When we truly understand the dire consequences of this message that comes from Jesus, we will seek to understand how to be healed. Some may disagree with the truth that the condition spoken of by Jesus is a lost condition. The message is not without hope, but the condition is that of an unconverted people who believe they are rich and increased with goods (converted). Such a deception. If we discern this truth, then how is it that a whole church, like Israel of old, can not understand they are in a lost condition? Because Satan had 6,000 years to prepare his plan of attack for these last days when if possible, even the very elect will be deceived. Again, we have been warned.
How has Satan perverted the truth in our day? At the time of Christ many believed they were saved by their good works. But, today, Satan has two main deceptions. One remains legalism where one believes they are saved based on their good works. The other deception is the predominate teaching. It is the "Evangelical gospel" that teaches one is saved while sinning. Both are godless religions. There is hope for our church, it is found in the verses quoted above. It is in harmony with the gospel message I have been presenting from Jesus, Paul, Ezekiel, and John and found in every Book of the Bible.
Notice that the solution involves Jesus. It always does. It is not good enough to want Jesus or to love Jesus. We must make a full surrender of all that we have to Jesus. We must die to self. We must buy of Him "gold tried in the fire" which is faith, but not common faith to which every man is given a measure, but saving faith. It comes by a revelation of God's love and works a transformation of nature in sinful man. Next, we must buy "white raiment". This we must have if were to enter into heaven and site down at the marriage feast of the Lamb. The white raiment is character. We do not have this character in and of ourselves, but Jesus offers us His character. This character is pure and the thief on the cross has it and will be at the wedding feast. One may say, "but he did not have time to perfect a character to fit him for heaven." We know that this is untrue. He has to have the white raiment or he will not be heaven. Thus saith the Lord "Verily, Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in paradise." Luke 23:43. So, we too, if found with that perfection of character that comes from the abiding presence of Christ, will possess the assurance of salvation that Christ gave to the thief on the cross. But, just to make sure that we understand our need, Christ tells us to buy also, "eyesalve" so that our blindness may be healed. This is only possible when we rightly divide the Word of God. This is very hard to do with most of the Bible unless we have help. The help we need is God. The Holy Spirit is the One who opens our minds to the Truth. We need to understand the Word of God. We need Spiritual discernment. We have the promise that Jesus has provided this Help. Thus saith the Lord "Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will show you things to come." John 16:3.
Having heard of the great deception from Jesus, we ought to take it to heart and make the first application in our own lives. We need to ask God to search our own hearts and see if there be any unclean thing in us. "Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting." Psalms 139:23, 24. And when we have discovered any unclean thing in the heart, then we know we have a work to do to be reconciled to God. He reads the heart. Conversion begins with the heart. It must be purified before the man can be cleansed. Thus saith the Lord "Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones [which] thou hast broken may rejoice. Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me [with thy] free spirit." Psalms 51:7-12.
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As sinful humans, we place ourselves on Brother Lyon's example of a yo yo, off-again, on-again salvation cycle because of sin. God does not do it to us. Please read the post just above yours to see what Inspiration says.
Dear Sister, I'm confused...I do not think I have ever said or insinuated anything different from what you are saying here. I agree that, "God does not do it to us", completely.
You quote from Sister White, " ...one blot upon the character, one sin unconfessed and unrepented of, will close for you the gates of the city of God." Have I stated anything differently? I stated, "I believe that if a Christian does sin, the Holy Spirit will speak to his heart and convict him of his sin. If he refuses to obey the H.S. and repent, confess, and forsake his sin, he is rejecting God and will eventually be left in his sins." Is my statement contrary to what she wrote? At no point do I disagree with what you, Jim B, or Richard (as he knows) believe, as far as the theology of Romans. The only point upon which we do not agree, is whether or not Paul is speaking in chapter 7 of his battle as a converted Christian or not.
I asked the questions in my post in order that I might understand where each person stands and what their understanding is upon the subject. Unless I have overlooked it, I have not observed where anyone has answered. In a prior post, I made comments on the present tense in which Paul is speaking in order to stimulate the discussion. It appears there is an advoidance to discuss this.
I am not trying to argue with anybody, nor have I accused or insinuated that anyone here is a heretic because they do not agree with me. Though others do not agree with me, I do not condemn them. I just love to study Romans so much, and against my better judgment and past experience in this thread, thought we might have a healthy discussion.
I'm sorry that I have offended and or angered anyone. That was not my desire. Therefore, I will not make any further post in this thread.
God Bless...
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"I believe that if a Christian does sin, the Holy Spirit will speak to his heart and convict him of his sin. If he refuses to obey the H.S. and repent, confess, and forsake his sin, he is rejecting God and will eventually be left in his sins."
Amen!! I don't think anyone disagrees with this, dear brother. The issue is much deeper and important than what will eventually happen if there is never any repentance. We are focusing on why it is that one has power to resist sin. What happens at conversion and what is the condition of the heart when one sins a known sin. We are teaching that we need Jesus indwelling the sinner in order to resist any temptation and then we can do all things that He asks of us.
The Holy Spirit surely does speak to a person when they sin and continues to. The sad truth is that unless we go further than you have, we leave the sinner with life when he is resisting the still small voice that you and I know is speaking to the unrepentant sinner. Let's look at an example that will reveal the necessity of understanding that when one sins a known sin, he is not connected to Christ and does not have life. The Spirit is no longer in the heart, but on the outside seeking to reconcile the sinner to God.
We are all familiar with the sinful act of David when he stole another man's wife. According to what some are teaching here, when David broke the seventh commandment, he retained his justification. Some have said that God knew David's heart and that he would repent. Others have told me that the Spirit was upon David when he was annointed and would be forever, thus he was filled with the Spirit when took Bathsheba. This comes from rejecting the simple truths we are presenting and have been for the last 12 years here online in this topic. Romans seven when taught as the converted Christian says that the converted Christian does what he does not want to do, sin. But, this cannot be. Look at what this would mean.
"And David sent and inquired after the woman. And one said, Is not this Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam, the wife of Uriah the Hittite? And David sent messengers, and took her; and she came in unto him, and he lay with her; for she was purified from her uncleanness: and she returned unto her house. And the woman conceived, and sent and told David, and said, I am with child." 2 Sam. 11:3-5.
How many days passed before Bathsheba knew she was with child from the time David broke the seventh commandment? The lesson that we are to understand from the wrong teaching of Romans seven is that this whole time David had life and was filled with the Spirit of God, that he was not under condemnation for having broken the law of God. Yet, we know that the Spirit was speaking to David as Brother Cop has said and we all agree. Yet, there was no repentance, none. David continued sinning. And this is the problem with giving a sinner life in his sin. It leaves the poor unrepentant sinner believing he is right with God and has life when in fact he is dead in trespasses and sins.
When did David lose his justification? God does not leave this unanswered. He was not justified when he sinned a known sin. There is no pardon or conversion until one has confessed and brought to repentance. David continued in sin until he repented and invited Christ back into his heart. Some would like to say that he was not unconverted when he sinned, but if that is so then why did he kill Uriah? "And it came to pass in the morning, that David wrote a letter to Joab, and sent it by the hand of Uriah. And he wrote in the letter, saying, Set ye Uriah in the forefront of the hottest battle, and retire ye from him, that he may be smitten, and die." 2 Sam. 11:14, 15.
When one takes the position that a man can sin and retain eternal life, he is saying that when David killed Uriah he had eternal life. This makes a mockery of the gospel of grace. It is only the heart that is fully surrendered to Jesus that has been cleansed and filled with the third person of the godhead. This is the condition of the converted person. He is filled with the Holy Spirit and manifests the fruits of the Spirit, not the works of the flesh. Thus saith the Lord "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Galatians 5:19-21.
And if one is converted and submitted to Jesus then he is seen to be converted. This is why he has power to resist sin and Jesus could say "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." Matt. 7:15-20.
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I asked the questions in my post in order that I might understand where each person stands and what their understanding is upon the subject. Unless I have overlooked it, I have not observed where anyone has answered. In a prior post, I made comments on the present tense in which Paul is speaking in order to stimulate the discussion. It appears there is an advoidance to discuss this.
It has not been avoided at all, dear brother. There are 12 years of discussion and it revolves around just that point. If, since Paul was using the "present tense" you do not take it as his past experience, then we have a converted Christian sinning. This is just the point. If one believes a man can sin and retain justification, then he wants to make Romans seven the Christian experience. That cannot be, for a man does not retain salvation when sinning a known sin. But, the Evangelicals have used Romans seven to justify sin. And now we have Seventh-day Adventists teaching that one may sin and be saved. Or one is saved while sinning a known sin. Or, one is saved in their sin, not from their sin.
It is common to use the present tense when describing a past experience. I do it frequently as do other writers. And you do also. Let's see.
If Cop says "I am carnal, sold under sin." Does this mean that you are sold under sin today? Is it present tense. If so, then you are not abiding in Christ, you do not have the mind of Christ, and you are not in a saved condition "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." Romans 8:7.
If Cop says "to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not." Does this mean that today Cop does not know how to do good? That would be contrary to the truth. Cop does know how to do good, make a full heart surrender to Christ, for unless we are filled with His Spirit we can do no good thing. But, Saul did not know how to do good in Romans seven because he thought Jesus an imposter when he came to understand that he was under condemnation. Romans seven is Paul telling us that the law is to show the sinner he is condemned. It does not save anyone, it reveals the sinfulness of sin. Saul tried to keep the law in and of himself, but had no power to do so. He wanted to do good, but could not. Now, some are confused on this point. They think that no sinner wants to keep the law, but here they err. Ask the felon who just got out of prison if he wants to go back? Some do not. And, this means that they want to keep the law. It has come home to their heart that when they break the law, there is a consequence. And, for some, they realize that life would be hell without the law. In prison they learned that the law protects them. So, they have a new understanding of the law and can say as did Paul when he was yet unconverted "If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good." Verse 7:16.
If Cop says "that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I." Is that Cop's experience today? According to those who say Romans seven is Paul's experience after he was converted, they are saying that is their experience today. cp was offended that I said "it sounds like that is your experience." I did not mean to say it was his experience, I know that it is not. But, if one says that this was Paul's experience, then they surely could understand that Paul would be even more offended than cp. It was not his post conversion experience as some are teaching. Romans seven is contrary to Paul's experience, for he tells us of his life after he accepted Christ as Lord and Saviour. To say that Paul did not know how to keep the law makes a mockery of his writings which is a majority of the New Testament. To say that Paul did that which he did not want to do would turn his teaching upside down. Paul taught that he was faithful to that which Jesus had shown him. He tells us "I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content. I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." Philippians 4:11-13. For those who are following the current Sabbath School lesson, we know that Paul makes it very clear to the Thessalonias that he had kept the law and told them to also.
And, because it is such a foul thing to take Scripture and twist it to turn the truth into a lie, I don't want anyone to think that this is what I have done. Some may not have time to study this or to read what I now post, but if they argue against the truth, then by not reading this, they do so to their own hurt. Paul knew how to do good and he did it and he encourages us that if Christ be in us, then we too will do that which we understand to be good and will not do that which we ought not do.
Colossians
1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.
1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
And lastly, speaking of the "present tense" in Romans seven. If Cop asks the question "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Is this not the very best proof that Paul was not speaking of his post conversion experience. Paul did not know "who" until he met Jesus on the road to Damascus. And, Cop knows "who" can deliver him from his flesh. And that is the point, we can be delivered from the flesh. We still live our vile flesh, but if through the power of an indwelling Christ, we, like Paul will not sin, will not let the flesh up. Thus saith the Lord "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." 1 cor. 9:27. Yes, Paul knew who and how and not only teaches us who and how, but lived what he taught. He was not a captive to the law of sin and death as he was prior to his conversion. Thus saith the Lord "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." Romans 8:2. Notice the all important truth that is so neglected. Paul said that it is "the Spirit of the life IN Christ Jesus" that we need. Without it we can do no good thing.
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Why is it that the president of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists is calling for revival and reformation in the church? Because there is a need. And why is there a need? Because the Laodicean message applies to the church at this time. As a people we believe we are rich and increased with goods and in need of nothing. This is an "unconverted" state. It is not hopeless for Jesus tells us exactly what to do. First He says "repent". There is no salvation without repentance. We must see our sins and be sorry for them. Repentance comes from God. We need to be born again of His Spirit. We need Jesus at all times to do any good thing, or to have life. To have Jesus is to have life. If we have not His Spirit, we are none of His. If we sin a known sin, we do not have His Spirit and therefore we do not have life. We need to be reconverted or in some cases, converted for the first time.
Jesus teaches the same thing when He says, "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in Me. . . . Without Me ye can do nothing." John 15:4, 5. We are just as dependent upon Christ, in order to live a holy life, as is the branch upon the parent stock for growth and fruitfulness. Apart from Him we have no life. We have no power to resist temptation or to grow in grace and holiness. Abiding in Him, we may flourish. Drawing our life from Him, we will not wither nor be fruitless. We will be like a tree planted by the rivers of water.
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For those who like graphs, here are two charts that depict the false and the true Bible issue being discussed.
(http://remnant-online.com/Images/truebackslider3.gif)
This is a Biblically correct charting of a sinner reaching the "new birth" and then after a period of time falling and then instead of repenting, he remains in a backslidden condition. Notice that in the second chart it left the backslider above the line of eternal life, but to be faithful to Scripture the wages of sin is death. Christ will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we can bear. When we sin, it is because we have wandered away from Christ and He cannot then protect us from sin. The backslider has no protection, so he sins. When he sins, he no longer has eternal life until he is re-justified by coming back to Jesus and receiving the Holy Spirit and true repentance for his sin. Without Christ, the sinner can do no good thing. We must abide in Christ to have life.
(http://remnant-online.com/Images/back3.jpg)
Some believe that if the time is short between the sin and repentance, life is not lost when one sins a known sin. That is not Scripturally correct. And, there is nothing to suggest how long a time frame exists where one may be outside of Christ and retain salvation. To say that Christ is in the heart when one sins is to make Christ a sinner which He is not. Thus saith the Lord "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:4,5, 7-9.
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It may come as a surprise to some that the graph showing a backslider with eternal life for an extended period of time was the teaching of one who was known by many as the "Father of Traditional Adventism", Ralph Larson. He also did not believe in a period of probation being granted to man. He therefore taught that God would save the man who cursed God and did not have time to repent before he died.
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As converted Christians, Bible knowledge Spiritually embedded in the heart cannot help but extend to the regeneration of our will and affections. To claim Romans 7 as our experience is impossible.
In a quandary as to how this could be, I endeavored to discover why. One of the answers is that the “new teaching” of Paul’s Romans 7 account originated around the time of the Counter Reformation. Up until the mid 1550s, church fathers consistently accepted Romans 7 as a pre-conversion experience. Many theologians, pastors and laymen were stunned to learn of “the new teaching” and feverishly wrote against it, yet over time it has overwhelmed prior beliefs.
What else happened beginning in the 16th century? We know. Satan was busy working to defeat the message of justification by faith being trumpeted by Luther. While he was at it, the core of the gospel message was being knocked down brick by brick through this new belief. More and more it has come to be accepted as the normal Christian experience.
Titus 2:11-14 says, For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
That is what we are to be through His power. It is the opposite of Paul’s experience in Romans 7.
Impiety, ungodliness, unholiness is seen overflowing from all corners of the earth, furious, troubled by satanic winds. And in the middle of the storm are those professing followers who fool themselves into believing they are elect Christians, convinced they have the favor of God, the promise of life eternal and eventually the company of Christ and angels, all the while claiming a powerless experience as their own. How could this be so when through the Spirit so much power is available? And while the situation is dire, the eternal results of such thinking is so crucial, we who do not claim Romans 7 as our experience make haste to the aid of such ones who do, but are met with accusations of injury, insult and rebuff. There is no offense taken, but there is great concern. Believers of this new teaching appear to know their path and wish to be left alone in self-persuasion but all is not well. What could be the cause of such a belief that would not nerve up a brother to investigate “why?” when there is so much evidence against it?
In the Revelation of Jesus He personally describes the condition of the church at this moment. He labels us Laodiceans. We are rich, increased with goods, in need of nothing yet we know not that we are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked - obviously in need of everything. He counsels us to “buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see,” because He loves us. He does not rebuke and chasten those whom He does not love.
What key gospel elements are we Laodiceans missing that we reach so low for salvation? Have we (I am included) forgotten the high estate from which we have fallen? We are called to be holy as He is holy; godly, as a reflection of Him. Let us take to heart the following:
Holiness
Rom_6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom_6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
2Co_7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
There is a great dearth of the Spirit and power of God because the subject of personal piety, true faith, and heart holiness is not kept before the mind in its real importance. – Gospel Workers 223.
Let those men and women who are satisfied with their dwarfed, crippled condition in divine things be suddenly transported to heaven and for an instant witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever abides there,--every soul filled with love; every countenance beaming with joy; enchanting music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb; and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the saints from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne, and from the Lamb; and let them realize that there is higher and greater joy yet to experience, for the more they receive of the enjoyment of God, the more is their capacity increased to rise higher in eternal enjoyment, and thus continue to receive new and greater supplies from the ceaseless sources of glory and bliss inexpressible,--could such persons, I ask, mingle with the heavenly throng, participate in their songs, and endure the pure, exalted, transporting glory that emanates from God and the Lamb? Oh, no! their probation was lengthened for years that they might learn the language of heaven, that they might become "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." But they had a selfish business of their own to engage the powers of their minds and the energies of their beings. They could not afford to serve God unreservedly and make this a business. Worldly enterprises must come first and take the best of their powers, and a transient thought is devoted to God. Are such to be transformed after the final decision: "He that is holy, let him be holy still," "he which is filthy, let him be filthy still"? Such a time is coming.
Those who have trained the mind to delight in spiritual exercises are the ones who can be translated and not be overwhelmed with the purity and transcendent glory of heaven. You may have a good knowledge of the arts, you may have an acquaintance with the sciences, you may excel in music and in penmanship, your manners may please your associates, but what have these things to do with a preparation for heaven? What have they to do to prepare you to stand before the tribunal of God?
Be not deceived. God is not mocked. Nothing but holiness will prepare you for heaven. It is sincere, experimental piety alone that can give you a pure, elevated character and enable you to enter into the presence of God, who dwelleth in light unapproachable. – 2T 266, 267.
Godliness
2Pe_3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
2Pe 1:3, 4 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pe 1:5-8 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
A revival of true godliness among us is the greatest and most urgent of all our needs. To seek this should be our first work.--Review and Herald, March 22, 1887.
The time is not far distant, when the test will come to every soul. . . . In this time, the gold will be separated from the dross in the church. True godliness will be clearly distinguished from the appearance and tinsel of it. Many a star that we have admired for its brilliancy, will then go out in darkness. Chaff like a cloud will be borne away on the wind, even from places where we see only floors of rich wheat. All who assume the ornaments of the sanctuary, but are not clothed with Christ's righteousness, will appear in the shame of their own nakedness.--Testimonies, vol. 5, pp. 80,81.
The living oracles of God reveal the deceptions of the father of lies. Who of our youth can know anything of what is truth, in comparison with error, unless they are acquainted with the Scriptures? The simplicity of true godliness must be brought into the education of our young people, if they are to have divine knowledge to escape the corruptions that are in the world through lust. Those who are truly the followers of Christ, will not serve God only when it is in accordance with their inclination, but, as well, when it involves self-denial and cross-bearing. The earnest counsel given by the apostle Paul to Timothy, that he might not fail in doing his duty, should be set before the youth of today: "Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity." [1 Timothy 4:12.] Besetting sins must be battled with, and overcome. Objectionable traits of character, whether hereditary or cultivated, should be taken up separately, and compared with the great rule of righteousness; and in the light reflected from the word of God, they should be firmly resisted and overcome, through the strength of Christ. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord." [Hebrews 12:14.] {CE 113.1}
Day by day, and hour by hour, there must be a vigorous process of self-denial and of sanctification going on within; and then the outward works will testify that Jesus is abiding in the heart by faith. Sanctification does not close the avenues of the soul to knowledge, but it comes to expand the mind, and to inspire it to search for truth, as for hidden treasure; and the knowledge of God's will advances the work of sanctification. There is a heaven, and O, how earnestly we should strive to reach it. I appeal to you students of our schools and colleges, to believe in Jesus as your Saviour. Believe that he is ready to help you by his grace, when you come to him in sincerity. You must fight the good fight of faith. You must be wrestlers for the crown of life. Strive, for the grasp of Satan is upon you; and if you do not wrench yourselves from him, you will be palsied and ruined. The foe is on the right hand, and on the left, before you, and behind you; and you must trample him under your feet. Strive, for there is a crown to be won. Strive, for if you win not the crown, you lose everything in this life and in the future life. Strive, but let it be in the strength of your risen Saviour. {CE 114.1}
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Quoting from Titus once more, we clearly see who we are to be, professing ourselves heralds of divine truth, giving additional diligence to godliness so that we may thoroughly instruct others in the gospel truth of the three angels’ message, righteousness by faith. While claiming Romans 7 as the Christian’s experience, how can we effectively accomplish this?
Titus 2:11-15 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
If we cannot believe what is plainly written before us, what good is our faith? With Romans 7 as our converted experience, we not only relax the assertion of Scripture and the promises of God, but in practice and theory overturn them. That view is calculated to extinguish the gospel as we know it. It frightens me. For removed is a holy, godly, pious, and victorious life. Paul says in Hebrews 12:14 that “without holiness no man shall see God.” In Matthew, Jesus bids us: Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
The most glaring difficulty I see in Paul’s experience depicted in Romans 7 is that of lack of power to perform that which he was shown in his relation to the “mirror.” Power to perform equates to peace with God. Our Paul had anything but peace. Those who identify with him would seem to be in the same condition – powerless. Could they overcome the world in that condition? No! Could he say he had grace and peace in full measure in that condition? No, because that is his experience after conversion. So how can it be that we are in a state of grace and still under such duress in Romans 7? Again, it is impossible. It completely injures godliness – righteousness by faith, for if we follow that, a converted man is still “carnal, sold under sin,” a slave to sin. We know that is not the case of one filled with the Spirit at conversion. It undervalues the power of grace to transform the life through the indwelling Spirit. Paul was searching for deliverance that conviction brought. He did not know what sin was until the law defined it. He delighted in the law, lived a "blameless" life as a Pharisee by its strict adherence, but what he didn't know is that the same law would show him his problem. Read this:
"Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." {RH, July 25, 1899 par. 8}
"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." The Holy Spirit presents the law to the sinner as God's only standard of character. "For I was alive without the law once," Paul continues; "but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. . . . I delight in the law of God after the inward man." {RH, July 25, 1899 par. 9}
"For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ." "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." By the grace of Christ we are saved. But grace does not abolish the law of God. The law is the transcript of God's character. It presents his righteousness in contrast with unrighteousness. By the law is the knowledge of sin. The law makes sin appear exceeding sinful. It condemns the transgressor, but it has no power to save and restore him. Its province is not to pardon. Pardon comes through Christ, who lived the law in humanity. Man's only hope is in the substitute provided by God, who gave his Son, that he might reconcile the world to himself. "He hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." {RH, July 25, 1899 par. 10}
In this context, Inspiration plainly reveals why Paul delighted in the law of God and for new reasons: the law came to him in its fullness and as a result he saw he was dead in trespasses and sin. As a seeker of truth, what joy he must have experienced to have that revealed. Yes, it must have been horrifying on one hand, yet he sought truth and it showed him his true condition before God.
Paul consented to the murder of those following Christ because he thought he was pleasing God in doing so. He was zealous, overly zealous in doing so, none-the-less, his intentions were to defend his faith. And after his meeting with Jesus on the road to Damascus, he learned Who he was persecuting and went on to receive spiritual instruction straight from the person of Jesus.
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A few posts back is a little list of oppositions and distinctions and as I recall, most were a comparison between Chapters 7 and 8, but this one will be a bit more broad. There are stark comparisons when looking at this chapter and the life we live in Christ.
- There is no victory – 1Cor. 15:57 except at the very end when he discovers the true Source of his power
- There is no peace John 14:27
- The new man has not been put on - Col. 3:9 & 10
- The deeds of the old man have not been put off
- He is not renewed in knowledge - Eph. 1:17 & 18
- He has not put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts - Eph. 4:20-24
- Is he crucified with Christ? Gal. 2:19-21
- Did he allow God to work and to will in his life? Philippians 2:13
This is a thumbnail of a converted Christian:
He is in the Spirit, not in the flesh; the Spirit dwells in him; through the Spirit, he mortifies the deeds of the body; he is led by the Spirit, not the flesh. He has a mind free from darkness and the corruption that is in the world; he is illuminated with the true, saving knowledge of Christ, delivered from the dominion and slavery of sin; he is prepared and fitted for newness of life; his will is conformed to the will of God and has powers and faculties able through the Holy Spirit to contend against sin; and, he obtains the victory over sin and no longer does those things once done in the flesh, but only those things which are pleasing to God. He desists from evil and does good according to the measure of faith given.
He is not what Paul describes in Romans 7, for “It is written,” Romans_6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Philippians_4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
Joh 8:34-36 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
It is my decided prayer that these few little posts will make a difference in someone's Christian experience.
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Amen! It is a very good review of the subject.
Some who believe that Romans seven is the Christian experience will fail to read what has been posted in this thread, but will instead jump in and present their "teaching" on the subject. This would be a mistake. There is enough Scripture here to give a reason for our faith. This is the foundation of our faith, it is not an insignificant subject. The false gospels being taught in the church have their beginnings right here. They all make a way for excusing sin when there is no excuse for sin. Anyone who gives life to those who are not reconciled to Christ are teaching a false gospel. Man by nature is evil and it is only when we are partakers of Christ's divine nature that we have life.
Some will misunderstand what is being said and therefore will not accept this truth. We are not teaching that a Christian will never sin again. We are saying that a converted Christian who will continually abide in Christ will not sin. Moses at the end of his life sinned. But, he had lived for many years without sinning. And when he sinned God laid him to rest so that none could say "even Moses sinned." It was the character of Moses to turn to Christ, so when he sinned, his repentance was quick and deep. Sadly, for some who have been converted, their repentance is not so quick and deep. And, there is no assurance that when one sins he will be brought to repentance. Some who were converted turn and never return. It is something to consider when playing with sin.
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Those who have trained the mind to delight in spiritual exercises are the ones who can be translated and not be overwhelmed with the purity and transcendent glory of heaven.
Yes Sybil! I agree wholeheartedly, and appreciate so much your sharing; very clarifying.
I would point out that the fine line between truth and error, regarding spiritual exercises (I realize you speak of the genuine article), is that in the last days while those who truly have Christ dwelling within through the infilling of the Spirit of God; who, as with the converted Paul, declare ....herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men. Acts 24: 16 -By far the majority of professing Christians, along with the unprofessing masses, will be caught up in focus of Transformation through the Exercises of Ignatius Loyola, fitted to the vernacular of Christianity through the Spiritual Formation Movement; the New Age Movement; or, One World "Evolution of Man to the next level" Religion, (albeit however ignorantly) as to more ably deceive those who know not the voice of the Shepherd; and ....if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Matthew 24:24 The Deceived will, as those wicked Ante-antediluvians, manifest more fully (by God's reckoning).... that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Genesis 6:5 The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts. Psalm 10:4 Thus, the Christian, inhabited by divinity, represent Christ as Christ represented the Father. (God's Amazing Grace 14.04; RH March 5, 1889, par. 6). The wicked, possessed of Legion, represent their father the Devil. John 8:44
"Lord, is it I?" Matthew 26:22
....Judas possessed a form of godliness, while his character was more satanic than divine. He professed to be a disciple of Christ, but in words and in works denied Him. The Sanctified Life 59.01
Judas had the same precious opportunities as had John to study and to imitate the Pattern. He listened to the lessons of Christ, and his character might have been transformed by divine grace. But while John was earnestly warring against his own faults and seeking to assimilate to Christ, Judas was violating his conscience, yielding to temptation, and fastening upon himself habits of dishonesty that would transform him into the image of Satan. The Sanctified Life 59.03
These two disciples represent the Christian world. All profess to be Christ’s followers; but while one class walk in humility and meekness, learning of Jesus, the other show that they are not doers of the word, but hearers only. One class are sanctified through the truth; the other know nothing of the transforming power of divine grace. The former are daily dying to self, and are overcoming sin. The latter are indulging their own lusts, and becoming the servants of Satan. The Sanctified Life 60.01
Many of our people are backsliding from God. We need to arouse. Let every soul that has named the name of Christ depart from iniquity. We want a pure Christianity. Great dangers are lurking for us on every side. When they most need the presence of God, many have it least. They are in danger of becoming like the Jewish nation, who knew not the Scriptures nor the power of God. Like the teachers of Israel, you may explain Bible truth to others, and yet not practice it in your daily life. If the Jews had possessed an experimental knowledge of the Scriptures, they would not have been ignorant of the power of God. Like them, we have great light and privileges; but many do not respond to these, and herein lies their peril. When Jesus wept over Jerusalem, his tears were for all who abuse present privileges. He wept that so many who profess his name fail to become what God designed them to be; that they continue in sin and weakness, while he is willing and able to save them if they will but come to him.
The Review and Herald November 2, 1886.02
....If primitive Christianity could enter the hearts of all who claim to believe the truth, it would bring to them new life and power. The people who are in darkness would then see the contrast between truth and error, between the teachings of God's word and the fables of superstition. 5T 580.02
As Jesus was in human nature, so God means His followers to be. In His strength we are to live the life of purity and nobility which the Saviour lived. The Ministry of Healing 426.01
The obedience that Christ rendered is exactly the obedience that God requires from human beings today.... ST January 25, 1899, par. 9
Religion is not a mere form. Pure and undefiled religion is the life of God in the soul, the abiding of Jesus in the heart. The thoughts are cultivated and trained to think and act in reference to the glory of God. The questions will arise in the mind, Will this course of action please Jesus? Shall I be able to maintain my integrity if I enter into this arrangement? Thus God will be made the counselor, and the soul will be brought into obedience to the will of God, and we shall be led into safe paths; and if we follow on to know the Lord, we shall triumph with the truth and have eternal life. RH 07-19-87.23
The life of God was manifested in the flesh, and was the living word, and the life of God was manifested in human speech. The human agent who becomes familiar with the Scriptures and who is a doer of the Word, will find that the Word is interwoven with the life of the soul; for he will have a personal experience in the things of God… When surrounded with temptations, the Holy Spirit will bring to his mind the very words with which to meet the temptation at the very moment when they are most needed, and he can use them effectually with commanding power. The apostle says, "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly… The Signs of the Times 09-05-95.03
Faith, saving faith, is to be taught. The definition of this faith in Jesus Christ may be described in few words: It is the act of the soul by which the whole man is given over to the guardianship and control of Jesus Christ. He abides in Christ and Christ abides in the soul by faith as supreme. The believer commits his soul and body to God and with assurance may say, Christ is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day. Mind, Character, and Personality Volume 2 531.01
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It was brought to my attention, after I said I would no longer post in this thread, that there was a post made in reference to me and a prior post. Since I had left this thread, and if Christian decorum was followed, nothing else should be posted in reference to me or my posts, as it would be unknown to me and I would not be able to reply. For this reason I am now responding and posting once more.
Approximately six years ago, I left this thread because words were placed into mine and other members mouths which were never said. There was also an accusatory spirit displayed in which there was much of, “...you are, ...you said, ...you believe...”, directed towards those who differed in their interpretation of Romans 7.There was little true inquiry and study into the word of God, and much of human opinion conveyed.
This spirit has caused pain to many of our Christian brethren. I have observed after two or three posts, that this is still taking place. I am saying nothing new, for others, in their posts then and now, have made the same utterances. I say this not to offend any brother or sister, but to bring it to the attention of those who may not have recognized they were acting thus. I love you all and have no hard feelings towards any at TRO.
If we are to discuss Scripture, not just argue or condemn, we must take time to truly study, not just read the Word First of all we have to make up our mind that we will put some time every day into the study of the Word of God. Make up your mind to study the Bible. The Bible is good only because of the truth that is in it, and to see this truth demands close attention. A verse must often times be read and re-read and read again before the wondrous message of love and power that God has put into it begins to appear. Words must be turned over and over in the mind before their full force and beauty takes possession of us. From doing this I have really learned the meaning of 1 Peter 1:8...”Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:”
A great many people know a part of what God has to say and usually a very small part and so their ideas are very imperfect and one sided. If they only knew all God had to say on the subject, it would be far better for them and for their friends. I can’t say how much time each should spend in study. I’m able to spend as much time as I desire in study. I try to tithe the time He has given me each day and devote at least 2 ½ hrs. every day. Sometimes when I am really deep into a subject, I have spent 8 - 10 hours. In studying God’s word, we have instructions on doing so from both the Bible and the SOP.
“There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.” Pro. 16:25
Just because we have been told what a Scripture means by someone else, or from our reading of how another person has interpreted it, does not make it true. It can effect our salvation and we need to dig into it for ourselves.
“Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:” Isa. 28:9 &10
In this day, we have been blessed with access to knowledge as never before. We have our Bibles, Bible dictionaries and concordances, to help us in studying. And we have something that no other people have...the Spirit of Prophecy. I like to take each verse in a chapter one at a time. I read it a number of times and then check the Bible dictionaries. Since the meaning of a word may have changed over the years, I dig into each word in that verse in my concordances, looking into the meaning and how that word, in its original language is used throughout the Bible. Next I go (if studying the N.T.) to a Greek-English Bible (from the Received Text) to read the verse in its literal meaning and wording. Then I go to a Greek-English dictionary to see how that word was used when the Apostles first wrote it, and what the meaning of that word originally meant. Sometimes this has taken several days on each verse. At last I go to the SOP and search everywhere that EGW uses that verse.
Reading what she says in regards to these verses is one of the things that convinced me that Ellen White was truly a prophet of God. With only a 3rd. grade education, many times she applies the verse just as it was used in the Greek, instead of how it is used today. This never fails to amaze me! I believe, and hope, that each of us has accepted her as God’s Messenger and that what she has advised us, comes directly from Jesus Christ. How does Christ, through EGW, tell us to read His Word?
“The truths most plainly revealed in the Bible have been involved in doubt and darkness by learned men, who, with a pretense of great wisdom, teach that the Scriptures have a mystical, a secret, spiritual meaning not apparent in the language employed. These men are false teachers. It was to such a class that Jesus declared: “Ye know not the Scriptures, neither the power of God.” Mk. 12:24. The language of the Bible should be explained according to its obvious meaning, unless a symbol or figure is employed. Christ has given the promise: “If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine.”Jo. 7:17. If men would but take the Bible as it reads, if there were no false teachers to mislead and confuse their minds, a work would be accomplished that would make angels glad and that would bring into the fold of Christ thousands upon thousands who are now wandering in error. GC 598-599
This is a strong warning from our God. How does the LORD tell us here to read His Word? He says we are to, “take the Bible as it reads”, and it is to be, “ explained according to its obvious meaning,” He is the Author of the Bible. Will we listen to His words, or decide we know better than He?
As previously stated, in reading Romans 7:14-25, Paul is speaking in the present tense, not the past, as is obvious from his wording. Let us look at a small part of the post directed to me:
Statement: “It is common to use the present tense when describing a past experience. I do it frequently as do other writers. And you do also.”
A: No, this is not common, nor do I do this. If that were true, it would be like my describing a trip I took to Washington D.C. in the past as: ‘I am in Washington and I am standing in front of the Capitol.’(present tense) when the correct statement should be: ‘I was in Washington and I stood in front of the Capitol.’(past tense). It is illogical for a grown, mentally competent person to speak of a past incident in the present tense. If they do, we begin to doubt their sanity.
Q: “If Cop says "I am carnal, sold under sin." Does this mean that you are sold under sin today?”
A: Yes, I am, according to the original Greek and the SOP.
The Messenger of God says of this verse: “But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin." Romans 7:13-14. But though [we are carnal, we are to reckon ourselves "dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.” {ST, October 1, 1894}.
Ellen White says: “we are carnal”. Who is the ‘we’ she refers to? If we take it as it reads, the we is she, I, and all born-again Christians. So we here have the Lord Jesus Christ, though the Apostle Paul, telling us we are “carnal” and we have the Lord Jesus Christ again telling us we are all “carnal” through His Prophet Ellen White. Are we going to accept His word to us or reject it?
What does this verse in the Greek say? Lets break it down and see what Christ is saying to us [and I will try to be brief]...
’For we know the law is spiritual’. In this verse Paul uses two terms that are keys to understanding the whole passage under discussion. He contrasts the “spiritual” law with the “carnal” man. Especially will an understanding of the term here translated “carnal” go a long way toward unfolding the meaning of the passage.
The law is “spiritual” in that: (1) its nature derives from the holy and righteous character of God, and (2) its actual demands are upon inward righteousness rather than outward conformity. In v. 7, it says: “For I had not known lust, except the law had said, thou shalt not covet.” Of one period in his past life Paul could write that in the keeping of the law, he had been, “blameless” (Phil 3:6), so precise and conscientious had he been in holding fast to its letter. But there came a time, we can only guess as to the occasion, when the true nature of the law was brought home to him. It was then that he realized that the commandment, “Thou shalt not covet”, focuses on the motives, feelings, and thoughts; the inward disposition. Here, he realized was an area where sin, not he himself, bore sway. He was thus led to see that all the Ten Commandments have applications that go far below the surface of life.
‘But I am carnal’. This one word, ‘carnal’, is made be an area of contention as it appears to mean something wicked or evil to you. This is not what it means in the Greek. “Carnal” is a translation of the Greek sarkinos, meaning literally, “of the substance of flesh”...fleshy. It is understood here as taking man as a whole with an emphasis upon his limitations, weaknesses, and mortality. It does not imply or suggest evil so much as the inability to do right. It is the channel through which sin controls. The great theologian, William Barclay, years ago explained it best: “flesh is that part of our nature which gives sin a bridgehead and a point of attack. The meaning of the flesh will vary from person to person. One man’s weakness may be in his body and his risk may be sexual sin; another man’s sin may be spiritual things and his risk may be in pride; another man’s sin may be in earthly things and his risk may be unworthy ambition; another man’s sin may be in his temper and his risk may be in envyings and strife. All are sins of the flesh.” [The Greek and this Bible scholar agree with the statement of Ellen White quoted above where she says: “we are carnal”.]
‘Sold under sin’. This may be understood as having taken place in the past, but the idea is not readily seen or understood in this rendering. The tense of the Greek term reaches back into the past and extends forward to the present. Thus, Paul is saying, ‘having been sold’, as some translations render it.
All Adam’s posterity were, “sold under sin” when by disobedience the father of our race gave himself to the control of Satan. Even when a person surrenders to God, he is not entirely free from the bonds of the flesh. The difference is that sin then is no longer on the throne of his life. But it still maintains a dwelling place there.
There is one point that is necessary that we consider here. That is, the whole intent of Paul in Romans 7. It seems to be found in the last part of verse 25. Paul says: “So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh, the law of sin.” It would appear Paul is not only demonstrating the nature of the conflict with the converted person on one hand and sin on the other, but also building up to a gradually increasing emphasis in his description of the nature of the struggle in order to make utterly and unmistakably clear the truth that victory is all of Christ. To place the greatest emphasis possible on this truth, he shows that even the converted man, with all his strong desires to do right, with all his warm love for God, with all his new motives and his strongly redirected will, cannot on his own, overcome.
Thus, as a converted man, he says, “I myself”, that is, I by myself, left to myself, will choose to keep God’s law. But I am still kept from doing it myself by sin which is in my flesh. By doing this, Paul is able to go on, in the next chapter, and raise Christ, ‘through whom we can do all things (Phil. 4:13), to the highest pinnacle in the development of his discussion on the plan of salvation. [Truly, I’ve tried to make this as brief as possible.]
Q: Is it present tense.
A: Yes
Statement: If so, then you are not abiding in Christ, you do not have the mind of Christ, and you are not in a saved condition...
A: “You...you...you”, once again. I’m sorry I failed whatever test I was given here to determine if I was a Christian or not. On what grounds do you make these accusations and judgments of another? According to your words, it is because I accept these verses as they are written and being in the present tense and you do not. What is your evidence, other than in Romans 7 you do not, “take the Bible as it reads”, and I do; and you do not read it, “according to its obvious meaning”, and I do, as Christ directs us in the SOP? Because of this, you decide and declare I am lost? This is not in accordance with common Christian courtesy: “Whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and prophets.”
Do I say such things of you because we do not agree? No! I will not judge another’s spirituality because they do not see eye to eye with me. I do not question that you are a Christian. I do not believe you have to believe as I do in this to be a Christian, but it appears you do. I am saddened by this, my Brother.
Do I think I am totally correct in my studies and conclusions of Romans 7 and that there is no way that I could be wrong? No. I am a sinful human and can make mistakes. That is why I continue to study this wonderful book. In such subject of study, a closed mind can lead to deception and spiritual destruction. I pray often that Christ will show me if I am wrong so I can correct my understanding on this. I’m very willing to change my belief on Romans 7 if I can be shown from the Bible and SOP that I have the wrong understanding. But I will not change because of man’s opinions.
It also saddens me, but I know I will now be banned from TRO and this post will likely be partly or completely deleted. So be it...God’s will be done!
I love you all, my Brother. Good Bye and God Bless...
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It was brought to my attention, after I said I would no longer post in this thread, that there was a post made in reference to me and a prior post. Since I had left this thread, and if Christian decorum was followed, nothing else should be posted in reference to me or my posts, as it would be unknown to me and I would not be able to reply. For this reason I am now responding and posting once more.
Dear Brother COP,
First, I want to express my sincere appreciation for your most recent post. I haven't read all your posts, so am unaware of your schism with the Brethren on TRO. I, for one, will take your council and try your method of study.
I would like to submit to you that so far as I know, no one has any possible, conceivable way of knowing that you "had left this thread"; actually you have not, as evidenced by your most recent post; so, how can any one of us know that; "nothing else should be posted in reference to me or my posts"; as you say it.
Statement: “It is common to use the present tense when describing a past experience. I do it frequently as do other writers. And you do also.”
A: No, this is not common, nor do I do this.
My Personal Observation:
People frequently describe past experiences in the present tense; reliving it, as it were, as they speak.
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How does the LORD tell us here to read His Word? He says we are to, “take the Bible as it reads”, and it is to be, “ explained according to its obvious meaning,” He is the Author of the Bible. Will we listen to His words, or decide we know better than He?
Dear Brother, Amen! And I love you and am sorry that you believe that some may have judged your character or your standing before God because you argue against what been presented as truth, just as the Bible reads. I have stated that your position on Romans seven, while wrong, is not as most believe. In other words, I was careful to not allow others to believe you are teaching the "evangelical gospel". I am sorry that the truth is creating so much variance, but it will certainly be the truth that divides the sheep from the goats in the end.
Thus saith the Lord:
3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
I will not make commentary, for none is needed. We may all understand what God has said. And, as is my practice, there is substantial Scripture that so that the truth can be seen in context. The truth is abundantly revealed, one does not sin when he is in a converted condition. It is impossible. To reject this truth is to not take the Bible just as it reads. And, this is not the only Scripture that says the same. For 12 years in this topic, Scripture has been quoted that says the same thing, we need to in the heart to have life. Without Christ abiding in our heart, we do not possess life.
It is sad that this division is seen by the world, but this truth is at the foundation of our faith. It is the truth that has been especially perverted so that most professing Christians believe they are converted when they are not. For the benefit of those not of our faith and for those who are, but are not fully registered, we have left the argument in this open forum so that all may better understand this truth. It is indeed painful to reveal the separation, but in this case, we believe it to be for the greater good.
When Peter walked on water, he did so by the power of God. When he fell into the water it was because he was no longer trusting in Christ to keep him. This is always the case with sin. The only power in the universe that can keep one from sinning is Christ. If we have Jesus, we have power and life. If Christ is not on the throne of the heart, then we do not possess life. Let's read the Bible and take it just as it is written:
8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Again, we have presented the Bible truth, and not out of context. If you prayerfully study these verses, you will see that they all are saying the same thing. The carnal man, the carnal mind is enmity against God. And, therefore, if we do not have the Spirit of Christ possessing our hearts, we remain carnal and are none of his, even if we were yesterday.
I know this is a hard truth, and many will say, if this is true, then who can be saved? All may be saved if they will allow Christ into their hearts. Jesus knocks at the door, why not let Him in. If one has been converted, then sins, we still have an advocate who will forgive sin. But, do not make an excuse and say that Christ has your heart when in fact He does not. Christ does not sin. If He has your heart, then you will manifest the fruits of His Spirit, not the works of the flesh. He loves us and gave Himself for us. Do not crucify Christ afresh and then teach that you possess life. No, that misrepresents Him and His truth. Moses' sin when he struck the rock was a horrible sin even though it was only one after many years of not sinning. It misrepresented God and because of that, God took his life. Yes, Moses repented, but the sin was of such a character that Moses had to die.
Let us learn the lesson that we might not continue the lie that one has salvation when he sins.
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For the many years that I have participated in this topic, I have rarely if ever used the Spirit of Prophecy. There is no need, the Bible is very clear that the wages of one sin is death. That man does not have eternal life unless he is reconciled to God. Life is only found in Christ. Since there have been many posts attempting to teach that one is saved when he sins, using the Spirit of Prophecy, I am going to present a few statements that will reveal the truth, that one is not in a saved condition when one sins a known sin.
Thou art a God ready to pardon, gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and forsookest them not. Nehemiah 9:17.
Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man's stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon.
God requires that we confess our sins, and humble our hearts before Him; but at the same time we should have confidence in Him as a tender Father, who will not forsake those who put their trust in Him. . . . God does not give us up because of our sins. We may make mistakes, and grieve His Spirit; but when we repent, and come to Him with contrite hearts, He will not turn us away. There are hindrances to be removed. Wrong feelings have been cherished, and there have been pride, self-sufficiency, impatience, and murmurings. All these separate us from God. Sins must be confessed; there must be a deeper work of grace in the heart. AG 139
When Adam sinned, he only need sin once to reveal that he was separated from God. It is just as true today. One known sin reveals a separation between man and God.
We should seek most earnestly to have Christ abiding in our hearts by faith, that we may be kept through temptation without sin. We should be constantly looking to the Author and Finisher of our faith, so that we can attain unto righteousness. The closer we draw to Jesus, and the more clearly we see his life and character, the less we shall think of ourselves. There are a class that say that they are sanctified, they are holy, and yet they are living in transgression of God's law. Shall we take their word as truth, or shall we compare their characters and doctrines with the word of God? "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." But the apostle says, "Hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected; hereby know we that we are in him." Every soul must be brought to the test of God's great standard of righteousness; and if the character is not in accordance with God's law, it is not in a right condition before God.
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." This is the only definition of sin given in the Holy Scriptures, and we should seek to understand what sin is, lest any of us be found in opposition to the God of heaven. We are required to be in a position of obedience to all of God's commandments. Our salvation cost our Lord too much for us to be found going on in uncertainty when eternal interests are involved, therefore we should open our minds and search the Scriptures, so that we may know for ourselves how we can stand under the banner of Prince Immanuel. God requires at this moment just what he required of Adam in paradise before he fell--perfect obedience to his law. The requirement that God makes in grace is just the requirement he made in paradise. We want to understand the claims of God upon us that we may reach the hearts of men, and teach them what God's word requires of them in order that they may have eternal life. We must live by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Our Saviour has told us that in these last days there would be false doctrines and false teachers who would lead the people to accept fables and customs and practices of men, instead of the commandments of God, and that our world would be flooded with heresies. Are we bringing in heresies to turn souls from the truth of God's word? We want the truth of God's word on every point, and we need to practice it. Those who follow the course of error and live in transgression of the law of God, will not follow that course alone; there will be others who will imitate their example. RH, July 15, 1890
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From the pulpits of today the words are uttered: "Believe, only believe. Have faith in Christ; you have nothing to do with the old law, only trust in Christ." How different is this from the words of the apostle, who declares that faith without works is dead. He says, "But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves." We must have that faith that works by love and purifies the soul. Many seek to substitute a superficial faith for uprightness of life, and think through this to obtain salvation. The Lord requires at this time just what he required of Adam in Eden,--perfect obedience to the law of God. We must have righteousness without a flaw, without a blemish. God gave his son to die for the world, but he did not die to repeal the law which was holy and just and good. The sacrifice of Christ on Calvary is an unanswerable argument showing the immutability of the law. Its penalty was felt by the Son of God in behalf of guilty man, that through his merits the sinner might obtain the virtue of his spotless character by faith in his name. The sinner was provided with a second opportunity to keep the law of God in the strength of his Divine Redeemer. The cross of Calvary forever condemns the idea that Satan has placed before the Christian world, that the death of Christ abolished not only the typical system of sacrifices and ceremonies but the unchangeable law of God, the foundation of his throne, the transcript of his character. Through every device possible Satan has sought to make of none effect the sacrifice of the Son of God, to render his expiation useless, and his mission a failure. He has claimed that the death of Christ made obedience to the law unnecessary, and permitted the sinner to come into favor with a holy God without forsaking his sin. He has declared that the Old Testament standard was lowered in the gospel, and that men can come to Christ, not to be saved from their sins but in their sins. But when John beheld Jesus he told his mission. He said, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." To every repentant soul the message is, "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord; though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." ST, May 19, 1890
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I suppose we could spend all day quoting Scripture and Spirit of Prophecy that tells us we must be connected to Christ, we must be fully surrendered to have eternal life, for from Genesis to Revelation we are told this. And, in the Spirit of Prophecy we find the same. What I am presenting, I have known for almost 30 years, but have withheld because many would not appreciate it. But, the day is late and Jesus is coming soon. "strait is the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." Matthew 7:14-20.
It is indeed a very narrow road to heaven. Many are called, but few will choose to walk that path.
God will accept nothing but purity and holiness; one spot, one wrinkle, one defect in the character, will forever debar them from heaven, with all its glories and treasures.
Ample provisions have been made for all who sincerely, earnestly, and thoughtfully set about the work of perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Strength, grace, and glory have been provided through Christ, to be brought by ministering angels to the heirs of salvation. None are so low, so corrupt and vile, that they cannot find in Jesus, who died for them, strength, purity, and righteousness, if they will put away their sins, cease their course of iniquity, and turn with full purpose of heart to the living God. . . .
I was referred to this scripture: "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God." Romans 6:12, 13 ch 568
If this be so, who can enter heaven? All may enter heaven, for Christ is a living Saviour that does not just stand back and wait for us to become good, or wait for us to come to Him. No! He is drawing all to Himself. He loves us and gave Himself for us. Why should we be discouraged? We ought not be IF we know the truth. If we know of His sacrifice for us. He has made provision for all to be saved, eternally saved. He has power that will keep the worst sinner from sinning. "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." 1 Cor. 10:13.
Why does the promise appear to fail so often with professing Christians? Because it is a conditional promise. What is the condition? We must be connected to our Savior. We can do no good thing unless reconciled to God. We must be partakers of His divine nature to have power to resist the smallest sin. If we do not possess His Spirit we can do no good thing and we are not His (Romans 8:9). We need to Jesus all of the time, not some of the time, or most of the time. Yes, if we, like Moses have a character that has been faithful for many years, then if we sin, we will probably turn back to God. But, that does not mean that we have life outside of Christ when we sin. No, life is only found in Christ. If we have Christ, we have life. "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus." 2 Tim 1:1.
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Our study on Romans seven has revealed that many believe Romans seven to be that of the converted Christian and in turn, it is seen that the reason why is that one sin is said to be allowed and the sinner may retain salvation. This is almost wholly the teaching in the fallen churches. They teach that man is saved in his sin, not from his sin. And, Romans seven is the great lesson they use to teach this. "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I." Romans 7:15.
Yet, one sin reveals a separation between the sinner and Christ. "It is seldom that one sin will stand alone or be restricted in the range of transgression to one precept or one prohibition of the moral law. There is ever a complication of disobedience, which leads the perverted conscience to a greater length of entanglement by entering to greater temptations and sinning more and more.
The heart not given entirely to the control of Jesus Christ has a door open for Satan to enter, and the archdeceiver weaves about the soul ingenious apologies in performing its hidden purposes of evil. All these excuses and pretensions are seen of God, and are as spiderwebs in the eyes of Him who never slumbers or sleeps. Oh, how readily will the human soul find poor and wretched excuses to deceive and cover up its own course of evil, which it pursues. There is an exact judge who weigheth actions. He cannot be deceived, neither can He be mocked. He will one day strike off the covering, unveil the conscience, and sweep away these excuses as smoke. CTr 171
"It is seldom that one sin will stand alone or be restricted..." When the person is separated from God, there is no assurance that it will ever be reconciled to God. It is a very dangerous thing to teach that one has eternal when sinning a known sin. When Joseph and Mary took their eyes off so Jesus when He was 12 and lost to them in Jerusalem, it took them three day to find Him. So, it is often. It is not good to take our eyes off of Jesus. We need Him all the time.
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The all important lesson in our study of Romans seven and eight is to understand our need of a new heart and mind. The carnal mind is enmity with God. We need to be reconciled to God in order to have eternal life. The unconverted heart is deceitfully wicked. When born of the Spirit, a change has taken place. The new Christian no longer has a carnal mind, but possesses the "mind of Christ". "Let this mind be in you that is in Christ Jesus." Philippians 2:5.
It is through the Holy Spirit that man's heart is renewed so that he has the mind of Christ. Like Scripture, except made more plain, we must read and take the Spirit of Prophecy material just as it is written. What is presented here is in complete harmony with Scripture: "Human beings may have eternal life if they will accept the principles of heaven, and allow Christ to bring the heart and mind into obedience to the law of Jehovah." RH5/3/06 This means that if the heart and mind are not fully given to God so that they are obedient to the law, then the person does not have eternal life. There is no other way to read this. It is a plain simple statement that is in harmony with Scripture.
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L.E.S. wrote this. He appears to have gotten it right. If we are filled with the Spirit, then all of the fruits of the Spirit are seen in the life. When disconnected from Christ, none of the fruits of the Spirit are seen in the life.
"Him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." The influence of the life of Christ is in itself magnetic. For one to live with Jesus and not experience a change of heart is impossible. Connect a piece of steel with a magnet. The very moment they are connected,, the steel partakes of the nature of the magnet, and at once begins to attract other bodies. This power is not its own; it simply comes as a result of the connection with the magnet. When once this connection is broken, the steel returns to its former inactive state.
The usefulness of man is dependent on his connection with Christ, the great magnet. Educational attainments, human ability, and man's capability can not save the soul. When the human soul is connected with Christ, the life partakes of the divine nature. It is just as impossible for man, when united with Christ, not to partake of the divine nature, as for the steel to connect with the magnet and not be magnetized.
When connected with Christ, the life becomes a power to draw souls to Him; when separate, the life is a power to drive souls to destruction. Steel may be manufactured into a sledge hammer, then used to do an effectual work. Each blow leaves its impress on the recipient as it is driven downward into the ground. So it is with the human soul. If the life is not in that living connection with Christ, if the soul does not reflect the character of Christ, its work consists in driving souls to the acceptance of theory. Theory can never save the soul. It may be based on the word of God, yet if it lacks the power of salvation, it falls short of the gospel; for " the gospel is the power of God unto salvation." Not until Christ is accepted into the life, can any soul keep the commandments. Anything outside of this is justification by works.
The sad feature of the work of this life separated from Christ, is that in consequence of its manner of labor it is ruinous to the soul as well as to the Church. Like the dead sledge, it works by the pounding process, every blow leaving a mark on the character, and driving the soul downward, into the earth. This manner of labor, instead of drawing the soul heavenward, will drive it away from the Church into the world of sin. It is a sad fact that many of our youth have been driven away from our churches by this
harsh, unloving spirit. The Church is dying for love. The home needs it; and sinners are dying in their sins for want of it. The Spirit of God says, " Come." Rev. 22: 17. Workers in the Lord's harvest field, have you received this spirit of " Come " ? Parents, does this spirit, made manifest in your home and in
the world, say, Come? Churches, does your Influence in a lost, perishing world say, Come? " Have ye received the Holy Ghost ? "
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Christ tells us "Dwell in me and I in you." Some do not understand that in order to have spiritual life, to be born again, we must be filled with the Spirit of God. In whom will Christ dwell? None until they are repentant and of a contrite heart. "thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with h:m also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones." Isa. 57:15., Through the psalmist the Lord also says: "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a Contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." " The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit." Ps. 51: 17; 34: 18. "If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."
Contrition involves the surrender of the will. When fully surrendered to Jesus, we are born again. Thus, "If any man is in Christ, he is a new creature." 2 Cor. 5:17. Contrition is sorrow for sin. "For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation." 2 Cor. 7:10. As the mind contemplates the thought that Jesus suffered for our sins, the heart becomes filled with love and it is purified. Thus saith the Lord,"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." Ezekiel 36:26, 27. Such a promise to the contrite ones!
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....even the converted man, with all his strong desires to do right, with all his warm love for God, with all his new motives and his strongly redirected will, cannot on his own, overcome.
Exactly! That is the whole point of the acceptance of the promises of God by an erstwhile proud sinner. For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones. Isaiah 57:15
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 1 John 4:12
God can and will do a great work for every human being who will open the heart to the word of God, and let it enter the soul-temple and expel every idol. Summoned to the effort, mind and heart take in the wonderful disclosures of the revealed will of God. The soul that is converted will be made stronger to resist evil. In the study of the Bible the converted soul eats the flesh and drinks the blood of the Son of God, which He himself interprets as the receiving and doing of His words, that are spirit and life. The Word is made flesh, and dwells among us, in those who receive the holy precepts of the word of God. Fundamentals of Christian Education 378.01
The Son of God lived a perfect life of obedience in this world. We need always to keep in view the truthfulness of the humanity of Christ Jesus. When Christ became our substitute and surety, it was as a human being. He came as a man, and rendered the obedience of human nature to the only true God. He came not to show us what God could do, but what God did do, and what man, [when he is] a partaker of the divine nature, can do. It was the human nature of Christ that endured the temptations in the wilderness, not His divine nature. In His human nature He endured the contradiction of sinners against Himself. He lived a perfect human life. Jesus is everything to us, and He says to us, "Without Me ye can do nothing." Manuscript Releases Volume Fourteen 334.01
True faith and repose in God are always accompanied by the illumination of the Holy Spirit, whose temple we are. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ; it is His representative. Here is the divine agency that carries conviction to hearts. When the power of His Spirit is revealed through the servants of God, we behold divinity flashing through humanity. When accompanied by the Holy Spirit, the presentation of truth as it is in Jesus will be of more value than all the honor or glory of the world.
Manuscript Releases Volume Thirteen 313.03
I see an interesting similarity between Christ's declaration: I can of mine own self do nothing:...31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. John 5:30, 31 ("Is it present tense? Yes"); --with that of Paul, in his statement: So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh, the law of sin. Romans 7:25 We can see Paul's obvious intent that any one of us, merely professing to be Christ's, will, by our "self", OF our "self", while the Spirit continues to draw us on to genuine conversion, ....with the mind ....serve the law of God; but with the flesh, the law of sin. -In other words: ....the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. Romans 8:7 As Peter when he sunk beneath the waves, not looking to Christ might have thought to himself, "So then with the mind(trusting in Christ alone) I myself walk on water; but with the flesh, I sink." Peter was not in the Spirit the moment he sank. And, must it be said; even Christ, at His own word, admitted that of His own self He could do nothing; that were He to bear witness of Himself, His "witness is not true."
Looking unto Jesus, Peter walks securely; but as in self-satisfaction he glances back toward his companions in the boat, his eyes are turned from the Saviour. The wind is boisterous. The waves roll high, and come directly between him and the Master; and he is afraid. For a moment Christ is hidden from his view, and his faith gives way. He begins to sink. But while the billows talk with death, Peter lifts his eyes from the angry waters, and fixing them upon Jesus, cries, “Lord, save me.” Immediately Jesus grasps the outstretched hand, saying, “O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?” The Desire of Ages 381.05
Walking side by side, Peter’s hand in that of his Master, they stepped into the boat together. But Peter was now subdued and silent. He had no reason to boast over his fellows, for through unbelief and self-exaltation he had very nearly lost his life. When he turned his eyes from Jesus, his footing was lost, and he sank amid the waves. DA 381.06
When trouble comes upon us, how often we are like Peter! We look upon the waves, instead of keeping our eyes fixed upon the Saviour. Our footsteps slide, and the proud waters go over our souls.... DA 382.01
This is why the Spirit expressly moved Paul and Timotheus to write: Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who.... 8 ....being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Philippians 2:5, 6, 8 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? 2 Corinthians 13:5
The purpose of the Godhead is for man to re-gain that which was lost in Eden; here, now; -to, while yet on this sin polluted world ....become changed into His image in spirit and character. Manuscript Releases Volume Thirteen [Nos. 1000-1080], Page 279.01 The converted Christian is to have such an experience with the Godhead (baptized in the likeness of the death of Christ, sensing the pains of the Second Death See The Upward Look 63.05) that we, with (the mind of Christ) may comprehend that: The law is an expression of God’s idea. When we receive it in Christ, it becomes our idea. It lifts us above the power of natural desires and tendencies, above temptations that lead to sin (Letter 96, 1896).
Those who consecrate themselves to God, and who have the protection of His grace and the quickening influence of His Spirit, will manifest keener intellectual power than the mere worldling. They will be able to reach the highest, noblest exercise of every faculty. That I May Know Him 8.04
The impartation of the Spirit is the impartation of the life of Christ. Those only who are thus taught of God, those only who possess the inward working of the Spirit, and in whose life the Christ-life is manifested, can stand as true representatives of the Saviour.... Gods Amazing Grace 212. 03
Christ promised that the Holy Spirit should abide with those who wrestle for victory over sin, to demonstrate the power of divine might by endowing the human agent with supernatural strength and instructing the ignorant in the mysteries of the kingdom of God.... Gods Amazing Grace 212.04
When one is fully emptied of self, when every false god is cast out of the soul, the vacuum is filled by the inflowing of the Spirit of Christ. Such a one has the faith that purifies the soul from defilement. He is conformed to the Spirit, and he minds the things of the Spirit. He has no confidence in self. Christ is all and in all. Gods Amazing Grace 212.05
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. John 14:10
....In His person humanity, inhabited by divinity, was represented to the world.... God's Amazing Grace 14.03
Oh yes, my friend, ....thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 7:25
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As Christ represented the Father, so we are to represent Christ to the world....God desires to make known to you what is the richness of his glory, that you may preach the mystery of salvation to those around you,—Christ in you the hope of glory. The Review and Herald March 5, 1889.06
The knowledge of God and of Jesus Christ expressed in character is an exaltation above everything that is esteemed in earth or in heaven. It is the very highest education. It is the very key that opens to us the portals of heaven, that we may obtain eternal life, an immortal inheritance, and eternal substance. All who have this knowledge are constantly advancing heavenward. They have a good report in their own family, in the church, and in the world. Manuscript Releases Volume Six 165.02
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. John 17:20-23
Jesus, dwelling in you, desires to speak to the hearts of those who are not acquainted with Him. Perhaps they do not read the Bible, or do not hear the voice that speaks to them in its pages; they do not see the love of God through His works. But if you are a true representative of Jesus, it may be that through you they will be led to understand something of His goodness and be won to love and serve Him. Steps to Christ 115.01
Christians are set as light bearers on the way to heaven. They are to reflect to the world the light shining upon them from Christ. Their life and character should be such that through them others will get a right conception of Christ and of His service. Steps to Christ 115.02
As we daily take up our cross and follow Him, Christ lives His life in us, even as we are ...born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:13
Each individual within whom Christ, {in the fulness of the Godhead (Colossians 2:9)} abides, can say, ....as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. 31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. John 5:30,31 Notice: Jesus is here saying that if He bears witness of Himself, His witness is not true. "; thus, Paul's exultation in Romans 7:25, is the exultation, the boast ....because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. - -I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. - -He that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. " Q:Is it present tense. A: Yes"
....God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. Galatians 6:14
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Galatians 5:24
So: Those who let the mind of Christ dwell in them richly, will walk as Christ(Philippians 1:21), in the Spirit; not in the flesh. (Galatians 5:19) Man-made divisions of chapters aside, Paul makes his intent clear in the following verses: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:1-4
WHEN WISDOM (But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 1 Corinthians 1:30) ENTERETH INTO THINE HEART, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul; 11 Discretion shall preserve thee, understanding shall keep thee: 12 To deliver thee from the way of the evil man (SELF), from the man that speaketh froward things; 13 Who leave the paths of uprightness, to walk in the ways of darkness; 14 Who rejoice to do evil, and delight in the frowardness of the wicked; 15 Whose ways are crooked, and they froward in their paths: 16 To deliver thee from the strange woman, even from the stranger which flattereth with her words; 17 Which forsaketh the guide of her youth, and forgetteth the covenant of her God. 18 For her house inclineth unto death, and her paths unto the dead. 19 None that go unto her return again, neither take they hold of the paths of life. 20 That thou mayest walk in the way of good men, and keep the paths of the righteous. 21 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it. 22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it. Proverbs 2:10-22[/color]
The largest share of the annoyances of life, its daily corroding cares, its heartaches, its irritation, is the result of a temper uncontrolled. . . . The government of self is the best government in the world. By putting on the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, ninety-nine out of a hundred of the troubles which so terribly embitter life might be saved. . . . The natural man must die, and the new man, Christ Jesus, take possession of the soul, so that the follower of Jesus may say in verity and truth: Galatians 2:20 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. God's Amazing Grace 39.03
He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him. John 7:18
Consider prayerfully the divine truth that:
-So then with the mind of Christ, we serve the law of God; but with the Spirit of Christ, the law of life.
When Christ would define the advancement possible for us, He said, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” This advancement is not gained without effort. The Christian life is a battle and a march. But the victory to be gained is not won by human power. The field of conflict is the domain of the heart. The battle which we have to fight—the greatest battle that was ever fought by man—is the surrender of self to the will of God, the yielding of the heart to the sovereignty of love. The old nature, born of blood and of the will of the flesh, can not inherit the kingdom of God. The hereditary tendencies, the formed habits, must be given up.
The Signs of the Times May 18, 1904.03
He who determines to enter the spiritual kingdom will find that all the powers and passions of an unregenerate nature, backed by the forces of the kingdom of darkness, are arrayed against him. Selfishness and pride will make a stand against anything that would show them to be sinful. We can not, of ourselves, conquer the evil desires and habits that struggle for the mastery. We can not overcome the mighty foe who holds us in his thrall. God alone can give us the victory. He desires us to have the mastery over ourselves, our own will and ways. But He can not work in us without our consent and co-operation. The divine Spirit works through the faculties and powers given to man. Our energies are required to co-operate with God. The Signs of the Times May 18, 1904.04
The victory is not won without much earnest prayer, without the humbling of self at every step. Our will is not to be forced into co-operation with divine agencies, but it must be voluntarily submitted. Were it possible to force upon you with a hundredfold greater intensity the influence of the Spirit of God, it would not make you a Christian, a fit subject for heaven. The stronghold of Satan-would not be broken. The will must be placed on the side of God’s will. You are not able, of yourself, to bring your purposes and desires and inclinations into submission to the will of God; but if you are “willing to be made willing,” God will accomplish the work for you, even “casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.” Then you will “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.”
The Signs of the Times May 18, 1904.05
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Amen, Glen. It was heartwork with Christ, and so it must be with us. We need new hearts filled with His Spirit. If we have not His Spirit in the heart, then we are none of His (Romans 8:8-10).
This topic has come to the all important truth that has been especially perverted. In order to have life, we must have Christ abiding in the heart through the Holy Spirit. The lie is that we can have life when not reconciled to God, not walking in His Spirit, not perfectly obedient to all that we know to be truth. That one may have eternal life when sinning a known sin. This is what the father of all lies has brought into professing Christian churches. That one sin will not keep one out of heaven is the new gospel. Well, it is true that one sin will not be the reality of those who have lost heaven. For one sin does not the character make. But, one sin is the beginning of a life of evil. Because one has been converted is no assurance that one will remain converted. When one sins a known sin, the question is what will happen next? To say that one will automatically repent is rather naive. Even if one has been a Christian for many years, we do not believe in once saved always saved. It is not Biblical. Then tell me about the ones who were faithful and fell away. Did it not start with just one little sin? Of course it did. Then don't teach that one little sin is not a revelation of a very serious problem. It is the revelation of separation from God. And one sin unconfessed will not be forgiven. "A perversion of right principles is a transgression of God's law. Those who in their actions pervert the grand principles of His holy law are under condemnation, for the righteousness of Christ cannot cover one unconfessed sin. The law has been lightly regarded. 'Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.' We must obey God's law, if we are loyal to Him and accepted by Him. The first step toward obedience is to examine ourselves in the light of the law, thus discovering the penalty of transgression. Those of God's people who do not purify their souls by coming into clearer and still clearer light are a reproach to His glorious cause. Too often those who should remain true and faithful to principle are obnoxious to God, because in His justice He cannot endure the sins that they cherish--sins that not only lead them into false paths but cause others also to be led astray." 17MR 241.
Yes, I know that this is a hard saying for most. The thought in the minds of many is, if this be so, then who can be saved? It is a very narrow path that God has prepared for us. Many are called, but few will choose the narrow road to heaven. Let us prayerfully study the gospel message, not from broken cisterns, but from the inspired Word that is our only safety. Ask God to reveal the truth to reveal your heart. "Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting." Psalms 139:23,24.
Then, when we see our sins, we are to confess them and be reconciled to God. His yoke is easy and His burden is light. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9. Amen! Believe it! It is the power of grace to transform the life!
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....It was heartwork with Christ, and so it must be with us. We need new hearts filled with His Spirit. If we have not His Spirit in the heart, then we are none of His (Romans 8:8-10).
Brother, I so agree with your slip of the tongue; as well as your intended meaning!
Oxymoron of special interest:(bold print for emphasis)
....the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14
....Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. James 4:8
The Secret....
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you.... James 4:8
A union with Christ by living faith [/size]is enduring; every other union must perish. Christ first chose us, paying an infinite price for our redemption; and the true believer chooses Christ as first and last and best in everything. But this union costs us something. It is a union of utter dependence, to be entered into by a proud being. All who form this union must feel their need of the atoning blood of Christ. They must have change of heart. They must submit their own will to the will of God. There will be a struggle with outward and internal obstacles. There must be a painful work of detachment, as well as a work of attachment. Pride, selfishness, vanity, worldliness—sin in all its forms—must be overcome, if we would enter into a union with Christ. The reason why many find the Christian life so deplorably hard, why they are so fickle, so variable, is, they try to attach themselves to Christ without first detaching themselves from these cherished idols. Messages to Young People 118.01
There are many who have not a correct knowledge of what constitutes a Christian character, and their lives are a reproach to the cause of truth. If they were thoroughly converted they would not bear briers and thorns, but rich clusters of the precious fruits of the Spirit,—“love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance.” The great danger is in neglecting a heartwork. Many feel well pleased with themselves; they think that a nominal observance of the divine law is sufficient, while they are unacquainted with the grace of Christ, and He is not abiding in the heart by living faith. 5T 306.02
After the union with Christ has been formed, it can be preserved only by earnest prayer and untiring effort. We must resist, we must deny, we must conquer self. Through the grace of Christ, by courage, by faith, by watchfulness, we may gain the victory.—Testimonies for the Church 5:231. (120)
WHEN does "the natural man" receive the things of the Spirit; or actually, become the "new man"?
Hear these words of our Saviour: “Whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock; and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.” It is the privilege of every one of us to build upon the Eternal Rock; then we shall not dishonor God, nor by our words and actions scatter away from Christ....Lift Him Up 265.02
When you have thrown yourself upon the mercy of God, and taken Him at His word, and yet the enemy comes, and suggests your faults and failings, and tells you that you are no better than before you sought the Lord, you can point to Jesus, and repeat His promises, and tell what He has done for you. Lift Him Up 265.03
....When the power of His Spirit is revealed through the servants of God, we behold divinity flashing through humanity....
Manuscript Releases Volume Thirteen [Nos. 1000-1080], Page 313.03
The impartation of the Spirit is the impartation of the life of Christ.... God's Amazing Grace 212.02
....The Word is made flesh, and dwells among us, in those who receive the holy precepts of the word of God. The Saviour of the world has left a holy, pure example for all men. It illuminates, uplifts, and brings immortality to all who obey the divine requirements.... Special Testimonies On Education 219.01
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Amen. And the failure to understand this is why so many can believe Romans seven is a converted Christian. But, when we realize that it is only through an abiding Christ, through the Holy Spirit, that we can have life, it it impossible to sin a known sin when converted. Christ does not forsake us when we sin, but neither does He excuse the sin. He stands at the door of the heart knocking wanting back in. To say that one is still in a converted state when sinning is an error that sits at the foundation of our faith. Some will teach that repentance must come quickly in order to retain salvation, but others draw no such line. Either way it is a significant error and must be corrected. The teaching of Romans seven as a converted Christian allows one to do what he does not want to do (sin a known sin) and to not do what he ought to do. He is then expressing the Romans seven condition, he is captive to the law of sin and death. In the Christian experience, one has been set free from the law of sin and death. "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." Romans 8:2. When we take the Bible just as it reads, the wresting of the Scripture is defeated. In Romans seven the sinner is a captive to the law of sin and death. "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." Romans 7:23. Any known sin reveals this captivity. When converted, when abiding in Christ and He in us through the Holy Spirit, we are given power to keep the flesh under subjection. Thus, all of the fruits of the Spirit are seen in the life, not one is missing.
It is sad, but all of this is neglected when one teaches Romans seven is the converted Christian. The wages of sin is death. Not two, not three, but one sin. God loves us and has made provision that we might set free from the captivity of sin. It is in taking Christ into the heart that we are made partakers of His divine nature. Then the Bible promise can be fulfilled: "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." 1 Cor. 10:13. There is only one reason why that promise fails. It is a conditional promise made to those who are partakers of God's divine nature. It is the only way to escape the law of sin which is in our members (flesh). We are born with fallen evil flesh and we shall die with it. It is only at the second coming that those who have life shall be delivered from fallen flesh. Until then, we must die daily and be filled with the Spirit of Christ in order to have power to resist the smallest temptation and to have eternal life. To teach otherwise is to teach a false gospel that has no power and excuses sin.
We must take the Bible just as it reads and not make excuses for sin. God does not, neither does He give us eternal life when we sin a known sin.
1 John
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
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By far the majority of professed Christians "comfort themselves" that they are truly serving God, while they are yet unconverted; I was one of them for so many years. Their experience falls short of the highlighted experience highlighted below:
Let us glorify God that we have a Saviour to make intercession for us, to speak in our behalf before the Father, and present His merit as a propitiation for our sins. Let us glorify God that although we are defective He honors us by permitting us to advocate truth and to maintain His cause. But although we make many mistakes in that which we do, although we fail of doing it in the best way, although we neglect and leave many things undone because self is not surrendered to God, although we are creatures full of vanity and selfishness and self-esteem (and all this God despises), yet notwithstanding our many imperfections He continues to teach us, and commissions us to act a part in His cause. When tried and tempted, many have virtually cast reflections upon God, yet the Lord has not cast them off forever. He has borne long with them and has given them another trial, and provided new opportunities, and has put forth every effort to draw them nigh unto Himself, in order that they might behold Jesus and become changed into His image in spirit and character. Manuscript Releases Volume Thirteen [Nos. 1000-1080], Page 279.01
Every individual must fight the good fight of faith for himself, in order to attain to the perfection of Christian character that will fit him for the society of the saints in light.... Manuscript Releases Volume Thirteen [Nos. 1000-1080], Page 279.02
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....when we realize that it is only through an abiding Christ, through the Holy Spirit, that we can have life, it it impossible to sin a known sin when converted.
Amen, Richard! The Godhead would have us comprehend; THEN, TO STAND through the Holy Spirit in the life we have when we have the Father and the Son (2 John 1:9). The Day hastens apace when the line of demarcation will be so broad between they who serve God and they who do not serve God, because they who do will have ceased to sin. Those who have the eyesalve (Revelation 3:18) act gleefully, taking the ultimate pleasure in the understanding that ....the eyesalve is that spiritual discernment which will enable you to see the wiles of Satan and shun them, to detect sin and abhor it, to see truth and obey it. 5T 233.02
It is then impossible to sin an unknown sin when truly converted; just like Jesus while He walked among man as a man.
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The "once saved, always saved" idea is the counterfeit of abiding in Christ. Those who are sealed ....doth not commit sin; for his seed (Christ; the Word) remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:13
....they that are in the flesh cannot please God. Romans 8:8 -does not apply to the truly converted just as it could not apply to Christ while He was on earth, because the Spirit of God rested within Him as His Spirit rests within the Believer, causing the Believer also so to walk, even as He walked. 1 John 2:6 ....even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 1 Peter 2:21, 22 These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God. Revelation 14:4, 5
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. 1 Peter 4:1, 2
As I let Christ dwell in me through His Spirit, Ihave crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Galatians 5:24 -So then death worketh in (the Believer), but life in (those still dead in their sins). 1 Corinthians 4:12
…Through the only begotten Son of God, life and immortality are brought to light. Through him are poured the streams of salvation. Through him comes the power by which the character may be reshaped, and the soul renewed to bear the moral image of God. When souls are converted to God, they become mediums through which a vital current may be communicated for the transformation of the character of many others. Recovered themselves from Satan's power, they know how to work. Human nature becomes united with the divine nature, Christ lives in the human soul, and acts through all the powers of body, soul, and spirit. From the converted soul, light shines forth to those who are perishing. …What vast numbers might unite in becoming active members of the army of the Lord in place of living a life of selfishness and self-pleasing, that at last proves itself to be not life but the veriest mockery. But when life is enriched with the life of Christ, when its impulses are quickened by the faith that works by love and purifies the soul, then the loftiest purposes are carried out, the noblest work is done, in the name of Christ. Through his own transforming grace, Christ is multiplied in the lives of those who are restored to his image. They co-operate with Christ in offering the divine gift of (LIFE through Christ to?) the whole human family. Advent Review and Sabbath Herald November 12, 1895.
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Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Colossians 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
In Ephesians 2:15 what was the enmity present in human nature ( mind + flesh / propensities & cultivated choices & attitudes )? Emnity toward The Eternal Divine Law of God, AND the ordinances God built to teach how to return to Him through Christ. What was the war (controversy), what was peace (reconciliation) removal of the emnity.
“ The fall of our first parents broke the golden chain of implicit obedience of the human will to the divine. Obedience has no longer been deemed an absolute necessity. The human agents follow their own imaginations which the Lord said of the inhabitants of the old world were evil and that continually. The Lord Jesus declares, "I have kept my Father's commandments." How? As a man. Lo, I come to do Thy will, O God. To the accusations of the Jews He stood forth in His pure, virtuous, holy character and challenged them, "Which of you convinceth me of sin?"--Manuscript 1, 1892. {RC 56.5}
“ The Lord God came down to our world clothed with the habiliments of humanity, that he might work out in his own life the mysterious controversy between Christ and Satan. He discomfited the powers of darkness. All this history is saying to man, I, your substitute and surety, have taken your nature upon me, showing you that every son and daughter of Adam is privileged to become a partaker of the divine nature, and through Christ Jesus lay hold upon immortality. Those who are candidates for this great blessing should in everything act in a manner to represent the advantages of their association with the Lord through his revealed truth and through the sanctification of his Holy Spirit. This will enlarge the mind of the human agent, fasten it upon sacred things, set it to receive truth, to comprehend truth, which will lead to the working out of truth through the sanctification of heart, soul, and character. {SpTEd 220.1}
We can stand down here, in 1892, and with the aftersight we are privileged to have, we can see what it means to disobey God's commandments. Adam yielded to temptation and as we have the matter of sin and its consequences laid so distinctly before us, we can read from cause to effect and see the greatness of the act is not that which constitutes sin; but the disobedience of God's expressed will, which is a virtual denial of God, refusing the laws of His government. The happiness of man is in his obedience to the laws of God. In his obedience to God's law he is surrounded as with a hedge and kept from the evil. No man can be happy and depart from God's specified requirements, and set up a standard of his own which he decides he can safely follow. Then there would be a variety of standards to suit the different minds, and the government taken out of the Lord's hands and human beings grasp the reins of government. The law of self is erected, the will of man is made supreme, and when the high and holy will of God is presented to be obeyed, respected, and honored the human will wants its own way to do its own promptings, and there is a controversy between the human agent and the divine. {6MR 338.1}
This is what the enmity was from the fallen human side obtained through disobedient Adam, that Christ conquered in taking the nature of the seed of Abraham into Himself. God has no controversy with holiness, fallen mankind has not controversy with sin, unholiness, disobedience, rule of self instead of ruled by God, but mankind was created holy and content to be ruled by God. Adam replaced God's image with Satan's image by entering Satan's rule over him through obeying Satan and disobeying God, first with his mind / heart then physically; it changed Adam completely, Jesus Christ undertook to rebuild humanity and selected the arena of taking the nature of Abraham's seed ( descendents) into His Divine nature and now as a part of His identity, conquer it so as to have obtained human conversion & sanctification to extend to whomsoever would listen to Him and follow Him. Kaving killed within human nature Satan's attitude of self rule, and replaced it with Divine Love that surrenders it's self from the heart - saying "not MY Will but THINE be done" that is conversion that extended out with out stopping ='s sanctification. Sanctification is conversion that endures to run the distance, what conversion started at the mere beginning of the race. More than ascent to the 28 + understanding prophecies, but rather utterly dying to self rule, and putting off old Adam's dead life, and putting on Christ the NEW Man, the replacement for dead Adam, eating and drinking what constitutes Christ's life and spiritual food offered to feed that new spiritual life, while still with the same body and brain, but with a converted >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going the distance being sanctified ( brought into harmony mind. )
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Sanctification is conversion that endures to run the distance, what conversion started at the mere beginning of the race.
Amen, Brother Ed; I like the way you put it. So; we receive the prize (Christ the Word) at the beginning of our race, and have the privilege of His indwelling for endurance to run the race to the end! May we be found faithful (1 Corinthians 4:2), letting the word of Christ dwell in us richly.... Colossians 3:16
A union with Christ by living faith is enduring; every other union must perish. ....The reason why many find the Christian life so deplorably hard, why they are so fickle, so variable, is, they try to attach themselves to Christ without first detaching themselves from these cherished idols. Messages to Young People 118.01
....When you find your work hard, when you complain of difficulties and trials, when you say that you have no strength to withstand temptation, that you cannot overcome impatience, and that the Christian life is uphill work, be sure that you are not bearing the yoke of Christ; you are bearing the yoke of another master.34The Signs of the Times, July 22, 1889
Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Ephesians 6:13
....So run, that ye may obtain. 1 Corinthians 9:24
So; which comes first?
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. While, at first glance, it may appear that the Believer runs to win the prize, or keeps the commandments of God to abide in His love, we need to take a closer look!
Eternal Life= constant abiding presence of the Spirit of Christ within the soul of the Believer (wedlock: Bride with the groom, Christ.)
....this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments.... 1 John 5:3
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 1 John 4:9
If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. John 9:23
....this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 1 John 5:11
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Romans 6:5, 6
So then death worketh in us, but life in you. 2 Corinthians 4:12
—The souls of those whom we desire to save are like the representation which Ezekiel saw in vision,—a valley of dry bones. They are dead in trespasses and sins, but God would have us deal with them as though they were living. Were the question put to us, “Son of man, can these bones live?” our answer would be only the confession of ignorance, “O Lord, Thou knowest.” To all appearance there is nothing to lead us to hope for their restoration. Yet nevertheless the word of the prophecy must be spoken even to those who are like the dry bones in the valley. We are in no wise to be deterred from fulfilling our commission by the listlessness, the dullness, the lack of spiritual perception, in those upon whom the Word of God is brought to bear. We are to preach the word of life to those whom we may judge to be as hopeless subjects as though they were in their graves.
S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 4, Page 1165.03
Though they may seem unwilling to hear or to receive the light of truth, without questioning or wavering we are to do our part. We are to repeat to them the message. “Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.” S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 4, Page 1165.04
It is not the human agent that is to inspire with life. The Lord God of Israel will do that part, quickening the lifeless spiritual nature into activity. The breath of the Lord of hosts must enter into the lifeless bodies. In the judgment, when all secrets are laid bare, it will be known that the voice of God spoke through the human agent, and aroused the torpid conscience, and stirred the lifeless faculties, and moved sinners to repentance and contrition, and forsaking of sins. It will then be clearly seen that through the human agent faith in Jesus Christ was imparted to the soul, and spiritual life from heaven was breathed upon one who was dead in trespasses and sins, and he was quickened with spiritual life. S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 4, Page 1165.05
We may SO run that we may win!
....we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 2 Corinthians 5:10, 11
The REST, for each of us, may begin To Day and extend from now throughout Eternity:
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.....all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. Hebrews 4:9-13
....whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 1 John 5:18
The pleasing fable that all there is to do is to believe, has destroyed thousands and tens of thousands, because many have called that faith which is not faith, but simply a dogma. Man is an intelligent, accountable being; he is not to be carried as a passive burden by the Lord, but is to work in harmony with Christ. Man is to take up his appointed work in striving for glory, honor, and immortality. God calls upon men for the use of every talent he has lent them, the exercise of every power he has given; for man can never be saved in disobedience and indolence. Christ wrestled in earnest prayer; he offered up his supplications to the Father with strong crying and tears in behalf of those for whose salvation he had left heaven, and had come to this earth. Then how proper, yea, how essential that men should pray and not faint! How important that they should be instant in prayer, petitioning for the help that can come only from Christ our Lord! If you will find voice and time to pray, God will find time and voice to answer.
The Review and Herald April 1, 1890.06
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It is not the human agent (of himself, by himself) that is to inspire with life. The Lord God of Israel will do that part, quickening the lifeless spiritual nature into activity. The breath of the Lord of hosts must enter into the lifeless bodies. In the judgment, when all secrets are laid bare, it will be known that the voice of God spoke THROUGH the human agent, and aroused the torpid conscience, and stirred the lifeless faculties, and moved sinners to repentance and contrition, and forsaking of sins. It will then be clearly seen that THROUGH the human agent faith in Jesus Christ was imparted to the soul, and spiritual life from heaven was breathed upon one who was dead in trespasses and sins, and he was quickened with spiritual life. [/u]S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 4, Page 1165.05
....Those whose hearts are filled with spiritual life will not need to be urged to reveal this life. The divine life will flow forth from them in rich currents of grace. As they pray, and as they speak, God is glorified. Reflecting Christ, p. 197.05
....He who drinks of the living water becomes a fountain of life.[/u] The receiver becomes a giver. The grace of Christ in the soul is like a spring in the desert, welling up to refresh all, and making those who are ready to perish eager to drink of the water of life. —The Desire of Ages, 195
From age to age the Lord has been seeking to awaken in the souls of men a sense of their divine brotherhood. Be co-workers with Him. While distrust and alienation are pervading the world, Christ’s disciples are to reveal the spirit that reigns in heaven. Speak as He would speak, act as He would act. Constantly reveal the sweetness of His character. Reveal that wealth of love which underlies all His teachings and all His dealings with men. The humblest workers, in co-operation with Christ, may touch chords whose vibrations shall ring to the ends of the earth and make melody throughout eternal ages. The Ministry of Healing, p. 159.04
Heavenly intelligences are waiting to co-operate with human instrumentalities, that they may reveal to the world what human beings may become, and what, through union with the Divine, may be accomplished for the saving of souls that are ready to perish. There is no limit to the usefulness of one who, putting self aside, makes room for the working of the Holy Spirit upon his heart and lives a life wholly consecrated to God. All who consecrate body, soul, and spirit to His service will be constantly receiving a new endowment of physical, mental, and spiritual power. The inexhaustible supplies of heaven are at their command. Christ gives them the breath of His own Spirit, the life of His own life. The Holy Spirit puts forth its highest energies to work in mind and heart. Through the grace given us we may achieve victories that because of our own erroneous and preconceived opinions, our defects of character, our smallness of faith, have seemed impossible. The Ministry of Healing 159.04
I submit to you that the the above quote from The Ministry of Healing 159.04; especially the last sentence, is a good summation of Romans 7 and 8.
....Every individual disciple is Heaven’s appointed channel for the revelation of God to man. Angels of glory wait to communicate through you heaven’s light and power to souls that are ready to perish. Shall the human agent fail of accomplishing his appointed work? O, then to that degree is the world robbed of the promised influence of the Holy Spirit.
ST May 18, 1904, par. 6
....we do well that we ....take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in our hearts.... 21 ....moved by the Holy Ghost.
2 Peter 1:19, 21
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Amen, Glen.
Here is a thought right to the point where all me see that one must have Christ in the heart to have life.
Nicodemus playing a game with Christ said "How can a man be born when he is old?" Like many others when cutting truth is brought home to the conscience, he revealed the fact that the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God. There is in him nothing that responds to spiritual things; for spiritual things are spiritually discerned. We are either converted or we are not. We are either filled with the Holy Spirit or we are not. There is no serving two masters. Good fruit will not be seen on a bad tree. Period. Bad fruit will not come off of a good tree. Sin will not be seen in the converted Christian.
Jesus did not meet argument with argument. Raising His hand with solemn, quiet dignity, He pressed the truth home with greater assurance, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Nicodemus knew that Christ here referred to water baptism and the renewing of the heart by the Spirit of God. He was convinced that he was in the presence of the One whom John the Baptist had foretold.
Jesus continued: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." By nature the heart is evil, and "who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." Job 14:4. No human invention can find a remedy for the sinning soul. "The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." "Out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies." Romans 8:7; Matthew 15:19. The fountain of the heart must be purified before the streams can become pure. He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law is attempting an impossibility. There is no safety for one who has merely a legal religion, a form of godliness. The Christian's life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit in the heart.
One cannot be converted and possess eternal life when one has a carnal heart. When a man murders someone it makes no difference how much He loved and served God before he killed someone. When he murders, he is not converted and does not have life.
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One cannot be converted and possess eternal life when one has a carnal heart. When a man murders someone it makes no difference how much He loved and served God before he killed someone. When he murders, he is not converted and does not have life.
A union with Christ by living faith is enduring....to be entered into by a proud being.....Messages to Young People 118.01
....God.... 21 ....hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Corinthians 5:20, 21
We can never have a clear appreciation of the value of our Redeemer, until, by an eye of faith, we see him taking upon himself the nature of man, the capacity to suffer, and then reaching the very depths of human wretchedness, that by his divine power he might save even the vilest sinner. ST March 17, 1887, par. 10
Thank God he is willing to save the most wretched, vile sinner! Even the one who, like the Laodicean, has a lifetime been of the mind that:
....We fall into sin again and again, and think it must always be so. We cling to our infirmities as if they were something to be proud of.
Christ tells us that we must set our face as a flint if we would overcome. He has borne our sins in His own body on the tree; and through the power He has given us, we may resist the world, the flesh, and the devil. Then let us not talk of our weakness and inefficiency, but of Christ and His strength. When we talk of Satan's strength, the enemy fastens his power more firmly upon us. When we talk of the power of the Mighty One, the enemy is driven back. As we draw near to God, He draws near to us. God's Amazing Grace 262.02
Every man, woman, and child that is not under the control of the Spirit of God is under the influence of Satan's sorcery, and by his words and example he will lead others away from the path of truth. When the transforming grace of Christ is upon the heart, a righteous indignation will take possession of the soul because the sinner has so long neglected the great salvation that God has provided for him. He will then surrender himself, body, soul, and spirit, to God and will withdraw from companionship with Satan, through the grace given him of God. He will, like the Ephesians, denounce sorcery, and will cut the last thread that binds him to Satan. He will leave the banner of the prince of darkness, and will come under the bloodstained banner of Prince Emmanuel… The Youth's Instructor, November 16, 1883: Messages to Young People 278.02
It isn't over until it's over:
In the parable of the virgins, five were found wise, and five foolish. Can it be possible that half of us will be found without the oil of grace in our lamps? Shall we come to the marriage feast too late? We have slept too long; shall we sleep on, and be lost at last? Are there those here who have been sinning and repenting, sinning and repenting, and will they continue to do so till Christ shall come? May God help us that we may be truly united to Christ, the living vine, and bear fruit to the glory of God! Many feel rich, and regard themselves as in need of nothing; but may such confess their sins, and let the Spirit of God into their hearts. O, let us fear to go on in our evil, unrepenting state, lest we become like Judas, and finally betray our blessed Lord! Advent Review and Sabbath Herald 04-21-91.08
Ellen White is here pleading with many who are, in effect, in danger of being among the 5 foolish virgins, pleading with them to, as it were to consider their ways, and be wise.... Proverbs 6:6 We must remember that God declared to the mankind before the Flood that My spirit shall not always strive with man.... Genesis 6:3 -Taking especial note that: ....as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24:37
Each of us must come to understand that to sin knowingly is to presume that God's gift of Repentance will still be available to us after we sin that specific known sin.
We are to surrender our hearts to God, that He may renew and sanctify us, and fit us for His heavenly court. We are not to wait for some special time, but today we are to give ourselves to Him, refusing to be the servants of sin. Do (I) imagine (I) can leave off sin a little at a time? Oh, (I must) leave the accursed thing at once!
Selected Messages Book 1 327.01
Each moment the true Believer will realize, as the Abraham and Sarah finally did, that so far as their inclination or ability to bring forth the promised seed, they were as good as dead.... Hebrews 11:8-12
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin....reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:6, 11
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For those just beginning to read in this topic, it may seem to be off topic, but it is not. The great deception in the Christian Church is that one may sin and still retain salvation. One of the main theological teachings used to support this heretical doctrine is that Romans seven is the experience of a converted Christian.
7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good.
7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.
7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
To many this is their experience after baptism. They have never found a way to walk in the Spirit, but rather are always walking in the flesh. So, they find this teaching to agree with what they have both experienced and been taught in their church.
When Paul wrote these two chapters, seven and eight, it was after he was converted. To say this was his experience after his conversion would be to set aside the rest of his teachings and the teachings of Christ and the rest of Scripture. Paul is sharing with us his experience as a Pharisee who thought he was alive before the law brought conviction to his heart. After he had seen that he was guilty, he attempted to keep the law in his own strength. This is what Romans seven is teaching. So many today, when convicted of sin, try to keep the law, but fail because they have not made a full surrender to Jesus and have no power to keep the law. Satan steps into the picture and through false teachers tells the convicted sinner that he is ok. That one may sin and still retain salvation. There are many various teaching that expound on this subject in one way or another. Some teach that once one is saved, he is always saved, no matter how much he sins. This is only one of the heretical variations that are accepted as gospel truth.
Paul states the truth clearly in Roman eight beginning with verses one and two: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." So, we got into this deception when some were adamant about Romans seven being the converted Christian. This led to the statements that one may sin a known sin and retain justification, salvation. It cannot be. The Biblical teaching has clearly been presented in this thread for over ten years. But, many have not read through the topic, so they have not seen what has been written. So, we have been presenting the gospel message that precludes one being saved while sinning a known sin.
While reading one of may favorite books this evening, I read this: "Many take it for granted that they are Christians, simply because they subscribe to certain theological tenets. But they have not brought the truth into practical life. They have not believed and loved it, therefore they have not received the power and grace that come through sanctification of the truth. Men may profess faith in the truth; but if it does not make them sincere, kind, patient, forbearing, heavenly-minded, it is a curse to its possessors, and through their influence it is a curse to the world.
The righteousness which Christ taught is conformity of heart and life to the revealed will of God. Sinful men can become righteous only as they have faith in God and maintain a vital connection with Him. Then true godliness will elevate the thoughts and ennoble the life. Then the external forms of religion accord with the Christian's internal purity. Then the ceremonies required in the service of God are not meaningless rites, like those of the hypocritical Pharisees.
Jesus takes up the commandments separately, and explains the depth and breadth of their requirement. Instead of removing one jot of their force, He shows how far-reaching their principles are, and exposes the fatal mistake of the Jews in their outward show of obedience. He declares that by the evil thought or the lustful look the law of God is transgressed. One who becomes a party to the least injustice is breaking the law and degrading his own moral nature. Murder first exists in the mind. He who gives hatred a place in his heart is setting his feet in the path of the murderer, and his offerings are abhorrent to God." DA 310.
There are many excuses made for sin, but none are correct. Sin reveals a real separation between God and man. We only have salvation when we are filled with the Spirit of Christ. I think we have presented enough, that all who wish to know, may understand that the gospel has power. That power is seen in the life of the converted Christian. He walks in the Spirit, not in the flesh.
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Having argued that Romans seven is the experience of the sinner who does not have a saving relationship with Jesus, let us go on to Romans eight and see what Paul has to say about the true convert. He actually begins with verse 7:25. Without commentary, let's just read some of the verses. If one can overcome the weeds that have been planted in the mind, the verses do not need commentary.
Romans
7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Chapter 8
8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Compare these verses with these from Romans seven:
7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
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Amen! I am so happy to move into Chapter 8! :)
- When there was frustration in ch 7 (v.24), there is peace in ch 8 (v.6).
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
- In ch 7 there is spiritual death (v.10), but in ch 8 there is life (v.6).
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
- In ch 7 there is defeat (v.15), but in ch 8 there is victory (v.13)
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
- In ch 7 he is a slave to sin (v.14), but in ch 8 he is free from sin (v.2)
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
- In chapter 7 he acts against the law of God (v.22.23) but in ch 8 he can through the Spirit obey Gods law (v.4)
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
- In ch 7 he is a "wretched man", but in ch 8 he is a "child of God" (v.14)
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
- In ch 7 he is driven by his flesh (v.23), but in ch 8 he is driven by the Spirit (v.14)
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
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Romans 7 is referring to a person who has already given their life to God.
Romans 7:22
(22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Someone who has not given their life to God does not delight after the Law of God.
Romans 8:6-7
(6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
(7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
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:)
Peter, can you convince me of that with a verse by verse study of Romans 7? Thus far, we have 18 pages of discussion defending the fact that this is not a converted condition. Have you read them and can you convince me our position is wrong?
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It is important to know who Paul is speaking to.
Romans 7:1
(1) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Paul in Romans is explaining the difference between justification by works and justification by faith. Because it was taught by some that they had to keep the Law to be saved
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Good morning! I have read your posts in other topics and you believe a new heart is given upon conversion. Amen to that, therefore my question, how could it be Romans 7 represents a person with a new heart?
It is important that you read what has been posted in this board. It is an ongoing study. Here is a case in point http://remnant-online.com/smf/index.php?topic=742.msg151988#msg151988
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I have studied Romans 7 & 8 and I agree that there is no excuse for sin. Look at verse 1 Paul is talking to them that know the Law. There were some in the early church who taught salvation by works as mentioned in Acts 15. Paul in Romans is addressing the issue of justification by works vs Justification by faith. We are not justified by the Law, we are justified by Faith in what Christ has done for us and then Romans 8 gives more detail it gives detail as to what justification by faith leads to.
Romans 8:3-4
(3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
(4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Keeping the Law will not make us right with God and any who teach that are teaching justification by works. We are justified by faith in Christ and the righteousness of the Law is fulfilled in us because we walk after the Spirit. Steps to Christ was written just after 1888 and is Ellen White's answer to righteousness by faith except she puts it much better than Waggoner & Jones
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Look at previous chapters
Romans 3:20-22
(20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
(21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
(22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
This shows that Paul is addressing the issue of righteousness by faith vs righteousness by works. In Romans 7 & 8 he is giving more detail into the issue. Remember in Romans 7:1 who Paul is addressing as it must be noted that he is speaking to them that know the Law not to them that do not know the Law. We recently went over Romans in the Bible study guide not long ago. The problem in Romans 7 is understanding true righteousness. He is speaking about people that know the Law but, do not have a correct understanding of true righteousness.
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So it is an issue with doctrine. Justification by works vs justification by faith.
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Not wholly. When you are prepared to read what has been stated in this board, let me know and we will pick up this conversation.
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So you want me to agree first?
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I asked that you read this study. You will discover how we reached our conclusions.
I also asked that you lay out, verse by verse, how you came to yours. Do you agree to do that? :)
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I read the other posts and there were others who disagreed as well so not everyone came to the same conclusion
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I continue to study the Book of Romans, especially in the light of chapters seven and eight.
Most who believe Romans seven is Paul's Christian experience make excuses for sin. And, a few others who think that we ought not sin, have an interesting view. They believe it is Paul talking about the battle he faces after conversion. I have given these individuals credit for being right about their gospel message because they say that God gives power to obey. I cannot speak for all who think this way, but some I have found appear to say one thing, yet do another. They do not appear to have gotten the victory over sin. I am not taking about an occasional sin, but they appear to treat sin lightly. Their emphasis is on a justification that treats sanctification matter of factly. They abhor Phariseeism and therefore have no desire to discuss the perfection of Christian character. This attitude leads me to believe that they do not understand the gospel message and that their interpretation of Romans seven is based upon their own experience. This is always a very sad situation.
In the past, I have tried to give the benefit of doubt to the possibility that they could be right, but more and more I am seeing that it cannot be. In Romans 7:18, when Paul says "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not," it is not true of his experience as a converted Christian. After his conversion, Paul understood how to perform that which is good. "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." Philippians 4:13. In verse 14, when Paul said "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin," he could not have been speaking of the converted Paul. No, he understood that to be carnally minded would reveal he was separated from God. "For to be carnally minded is death." Romans 8:6.
If we allowed these verses in Roman seven to be Paul speaking of his post conversion experience, we could say that some take their eyes off of Jesus and then they sin. How very true. I recall many times having sinned after being truly converted. We do not believe in once saved always saved, nor do we believe that once one is converted that the battle ceases. No, it continues. Let us look at a post conversion experience and see how it squares with Romans 7.
Like Moses when he struck the Rock, one sins after being converted. Can you imagine Moses saying "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not." or how about this; "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Romans 7: 7:18, 24. No, Moses instead fell on his face and repented in great sorrow. He knew who would deliver him and he knew how to keep from sinning.
Many accept Romans 7 as the Christian experience because it is their experience after baptism. They have never learned how to obey. Romans 8 is the text book along with the lessons Jesus gave while walking in our flesh upon this earth. "And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness." Romans 8:10. Listen to Paul: "if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you." Romans 8:9. Does the Spirit of God dwell in you? If so, you will not sin. Paul knew, he did not have to ask, he understood.
Before Paul's conversion he still wanted to follow God, he wanted to do what was right unlike someone who does not want to or has no desire to follow God. Paul before he understood and gave his life to Christ was a Pharisee and lived by what they taught, justification by works. After he gives his life to Christ and understands the gospel he then understands about justification by faith. Verse 1 Paul tells us that he is speaking to them that know the Law. Romans 7 & 8 Paul gives the correct doctrine of righteousness by faith and tells the difference between the two.
There are many today who love God and want to follow Him but, have an incorrect doctrine of righteousness by faith. They think that the Law was done away when in fact righteousness by faith leads us to keeping God's Law. In the early church the Jews and even some within the church taught salvation by works.
Acts 15:1
(1) And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
Romans 7 & 8 is speaking of someone who loves God but does not have the correct doctrine of righteousness by faith. Paul wanted to follow God before he met Christ but, did not have the correct doctrine.
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Yes, dear brother, you are so right. Romans seven is Paul's experience as a Pharisee. Patient and prayerful study will help us to better understand Scripture and what each other believe. There are many in the church just like Saul, the Pharisee. They love God, they believe they are serving God correctly, but do not know that they are righteous Pharisees. They go about teaching others a false doctrine, they hurt others because they do not have Christ enthroned upon their hearts, they beat others over the head with the law of God, and some may even go as far as Saul when he incited the death of Stephen and then proceeded to persecute the true Christians.
You have it just right, Peter. Romans seven is indeed the expression of the experience of Paul when he was a Pharisee, but something happened in Romans seven and we move into a new arena in Saul's life. He remains a Pharisee, but he gains another perspective in Romans seven that he tells us of. The law of God is seen in a different manner. He thought he was alive without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and he died. He did not die to self as some teach, no. He saw himself dead spiritually. The commandment which was ordained to life, revealed to Saul that he was under condemnation, a sentence of death. Saul had thought that he was keeping the law, but as he got a better understanding of what the law requires, he saw that he was a lawbreaker. Being a good Pharisee who knew that he had to keep the law to go to heaven, he then attempted to keep the law, but having no Saviour, he could not.
There are many in the church today who know that if they are breaking the law, they are under condemnation, but they like Saul have no power to keep the law in and of themselves. So, like Romans seven they find themselves doing what they do not want to do and not doing what they want to do. Saul strived to keep the law because he wanted to serve God. He loved God. But, he did not love God enough. He had not yet been converted. He rejected Christ as Saviour and thus had no indwelling presence of Christ. He therefore murdered Christians. As the Holy Spirit convicted Saul of his sins, Saul understood more and more that he was resisting the truth, but not having a Saviour, it could do nothing about it. He continued in his sins. He abhorred himself and his sin. He wanted to do good. He knew the law was good, and wanted to keep it. As time goes by, he finally falls on his face and cries out to the God of heaven, the God he believes he is serving, the God he loves, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" He knows he is condemned by the broken law, and he knows that he cannot do anything but sin. He is indeed wretched. But, no longer blind. He is not a proud Pharisee, but a broken sinner in search of a Savior, for he no longer see himself as a keeper of the law. When he meets Jesus, it is in answer to his prayer. He does not argue, but accepts Christ as God. Jesus says to him, "I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks." Yes, it was getting harder and harder for Saul to resist the Spirit who was telling Saul that he was spiritually dead and needed a Savior. Saul's response? "And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?" He was converted on the road to Damascus. The proud Pharisee had loved God, but loved self more. The requirement for conversion is to love God with all the heart, to be filled with the Holy Spirit, to love ones neighbor. Saul did not meet this requirement. He did not believe by faith in God, but was attempting to work his way to heaven by what he thought were good works. He had been a proud Pharisee and the religion of the Pharisee was a Christless, loveless religion of "good works". Romans seven is Paul's explanation of how he transitioned from a proud Pharisee to a broken sinner in search of a Savior. He ends the chapter with his discovery of the power of God to give him the victory over sin, over his flesh.
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So the experience of Romans 7 is not of someone of the world who has no desire or want to follow God but, of someone who does love God and are deceived into thinking that they are OK when they are not. Just like Paul before he gave his life to Christ loved God and thought he was following God until he met Christ. There are many in church to day who love God and think they are OK when they are lukewarm. When we read Romans 7 we can see who he is speaking to and his experience before he met Christ does not look like someone of the world but yet does not look like someone fully converted.
Romans 7:1
(1) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Romans 7:9
(9) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Romans 7:22
(22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
So he is speaking of someone who loves God but is not fully converted and after he meets Christ he sees his true condition.
Romans 7:9
(9) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
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Richard just one more thing to add to what you said in previous chapters he is explaining the difference between justification by works and justification by faith, then chapter 7 tells of his own experience and how the truth set him free.
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Yes, Peter, I agree. Paul has a very interesting story to tell. It is a little different from what many have experienced today in the church. His story is very important to understand because he wrote most of the New Testament. His experience has set the stage for his writings. He was not a raving liberal who hated the law as many in professing Christian churches are today. They teach that one does not have to keep the law, but is saved in sin. Paul was the opposite before he was converted. He knew one had to keep the law and set about to do it in his own strength without Jesus. It colored his teaching. If we do not understand his history, his hate of Phariseeism, then we will misunderstand his writings, most of the New Testament. This is the case with the Evangelicals. They misapply his writings, and that has found its way into our church also. And, it is not limited to liberals, but conservatives have often misunderstood.
You have got a good grasp of the need to have a heart change, not just an outward appearance of righteousness. Paul continued through many of his Books to explain the need to have God's Spirit in our hearts, not just outward "works". He was not only attempting to reach his old Pharisee friends who were deceived as he had been, but he was especially concerned about his churches that he had raised up only to find that Judaizers had come into them and led many astray, away from Christ into works. When we look for this in Corinthians and Galatians, we will find exactly what you are saying you have found in Romans. He is doing all he can to reveal the great deception that had led him astray to the point where he had murdered disciples of Jesus. Yes, he hated the false religion of "works" which had dominated his nation, God's chosen people.
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When I first started going to church, (I was not raised in church but was converted through a friend I grew up with) I was involved with CB's and hearing sermons that taught the need to keep God's commandments and condemned new theology and the NIV. We often heard sermons about keeping God's commandments, after a while it became discouraging because the way the sermons were is that we need to keep the commandments to be saved. The thing that was lacking in the sermons was how to attain true righteousness.
It was not until I studied it for myself that I seen that we are justified by faith that we are not saved because we are worthy but, because He is worthy. Keeping the commandments are important but we do not keep the commandments to be saved keeping the commandments is the fruit of having Christ in us. I have learned that we cannot just teach the Law we need to teach Christ in the Law which is what Paul does. I like forums like this so we can discuss and learn more.
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Amen! Peter, you have benefited from studying for yourself. Many trust their salvation to what others have said, not to what the Bible actually teaches. They read books, books, and more books, but neglect to study their Bibles. The 1888 message was justification by faith, a faith that results in good works. Obedience is the fruit of Christ enthroned in the heart.
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It was not until I studied it for myself that I seen that we are justified by faith that we are not saved because we are worthy but, because He is worthy. Keeping the commandments are important but we do not keep the commandments to be saved keeping the commandments is the fruit of having Christ in us. I have learned that we cannot just teach the Law we need to teach Christ in the Law which is what Paul does. I like forums like this so we can discuss and learn more.
Amen!
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It is important to know who Paul is speaking to.
Romans 7:1
(1) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Paul in Romans is explaining the difference between justification by works and justification by faith. Because it was taught by some that they had to keep the Law to be saved
Yes, Paul was speaking to the Jews, especially those from whose ranks (Pharisees) he had been called from by God while on the road to Damascus. Isn't it ironic that while most of the Jews in Paul's time understood that God had inspired "the Law" (of ordinances) AND the Moral Law, the truth remains that....unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Titus 1:15, 16 The Jews, for the most part, for all their "carefulness" and Tradition, ....they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.Be not deceived; NONETHELESS; there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek.... Romans 10:12
Sowing is work:
Adam and Eve knew the law (word) of God. Eve ....saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise.... Genesis 3:6 Yet, God had expressly commanded that ....of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it.... Genesis 2:17 In a certain very real sense, as Eve was contemplating the sin, she saw herself picking that forbidden fruit before she actually did, and had one moment to respond to the Spirit of God, just as we do. While contemplating her choice, she might have joyfully exclaimed, as did Paul, ....who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.... Romans 7:24, 25 -In contemplating the temptation; knowing that God had said that the day she ate of it she would die, she might have exclaimed, "There, but for the word (grace) of God, go I." -and reveled in the victory thus obtained! Sin never need to have tainted the human race; nor you, nor I, from henceforth! No matter our inherited tendency or propensity, or to what depth of vile degradation we have fallen; even in Laodicea; we may receive the mind of Christ. When we receive that mind, we can no more sin than did Christ while in the likeness of sinful flesh. With Christ dwelling within our soul-temple, we will work the works of God, in Love; to God, and to mankind.
In order to meet the requirements of the law, our faith must grasp the righteousness of Christ, accepting it as our righteousness. Through union with Christ, through acceptance of His righteousness by faith, we may be qualified to work the works of God, to be colaborers with Christ. If you are willing to drift along with the current of evil, and do not cooperate with the heavenly agencies in restraining transgression in your family, and in the church, in order that everlasting righteousness may be brought in, you do not have faith.... 1SM 374.1
God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. 9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. Galatians 6:7-9
....God; 6 ....will render to every man according to his DEEDS: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with....there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but THE DOERS OF THE LAW shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew THE WORK OF THE LAW written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness.... Romans 2:5-15
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2 Timothy 3:15[/color] -Tell me the name of one man or one woman or one child that will be saved, who have not Cast away from (themselves) all (their) transgressions, whereby (they) have transgressed; and (made themselves) a new heart and a new spirit; who, does not keep the Law of God, (We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 1 John 5:18) be it ever so briefly, as did the thief on the cross? This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. John 6:29 As a Jew, the thief also knew of the Law; he obviously, prior to his incarceration, hadn't found the Answer to his spiritual dilemma. Certainly he "came to his right mind", and will be "saved" (Hebrews 11:40), the same way as all mankind; while, perhaps, not having comprehended that: ....faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1 [color]black]The thief manifested in that short time, through his request to Christ on the cross, true belief that Christ could save him from his Sin(s). Had the thief been let down from his cross, he would have willed and done that which Christ, through the Holy Spirit, will have willed in him to will and to do. (See Philippians 2:13) AND, as Paul mentioned to the Thessalonians, ....the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. 5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. 2 Thessalonians3:3-5
James ....by the same Spirit.... 1 Corinthians 12:9 almost stridently announces ....wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? James 2:20-22
....when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:20-23
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What speech is to thought, so is Christ to the invisible Father. He is the manifestation of the Father, and is called the Word of God. God sent His Son into the world, His divinity clothed with humanity, that man might bear the image of the invisible God. He made known in His words, His character, His power and majesty, the nature and attributes of God. Divinity flashed through humanity in softening, subduing light. He was the embodiment of the law of God, which is the transcript of His character (Manuscript 77, 1899).
As Christ represented the Father, so we are to represent Christ to the world.We cannot transfer our obligation to others. God desires to make known to you what is the richness of his glory, that you may preach the mystery of salvation to those around you, -Christ in you the hope of glory.
RH March 5, 1889, par. 6
The knowledge of God and of Jesus Christ expressed in character is an exaltation above everything that is esteemed in earth or in heaven. It is the very highest education. It is the very key that opens to us the portals of heaven, that we may obtain eternal life, an immortal inheritance, and eternal substance. All who have this knowledge are constantly advancing heavenward. They have a good report in their own family, in the church, and in the world. Manuscript Releases Volume Six 165.02
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9
Regarding Jew OR Gentile:
EVERY SINNER; those who know the Law, as well as those who do not, will come to salvation the same way.
This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. John 6:29 ....whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:15
....God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Romans 12:3
By His death we are reconciled to God; by His life, as it is wrought out in our life, we shall be saved....
The Signs of the Times June 17, 1903
The Lord Jesus loves His people, and when they put their trust in Him, depending wholly upon Him, He strengthens them. He will live through them, giving them the inspiration of His sanctifying Spirit, imparting to the soul a vital transfusion of Himself. He acts through their faculties and causes them to choose His will and to act out His character. With the apostle Paul they then may say, “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me” (Galatians 2:20).... That I May Know Him 78.3
The impartation of the Spirit is the impartation of the life of Christ. Those only who are thus taught of God, those only who possess the inward working of the Spirit, and in whose life the Christ-life is manifested, can stand as true representatives of the Saviour.... God's Amazing Grace 212.3
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we may receive the mind of Christ. When we receive that mind, we can no more sin than did Christ while in the likeness of sinful flesh. With Christ dwelling within our soul-temple, we will work the works of God, in Love; to God, and to mankind.
Your posts beg further consideration as I look at my life today in its stark reality, examining it from the directive to do so found in Scripture.
1Corinthians 11:28-32 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
2Corinthians 13:5-10 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates. Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates. For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth. For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection. Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the power which the Lord hath given me to edification, and not to destruction.
I must ask the question, how is it with me?
As a student of Scripture, growing in grace, clinging to Christ in all of my frailty, I occasionally teach and sometimes preach when instead I should be sitting in the congregation as one humble, apt to hear instruction in righteousness. Trials are given for me to bear – do I endure them with grace?; temptations abound for me to resist – do I always turn away from them?; a witness of King Jesus is mine to portray before everyone with whom I come in contact – am I always representative of Him?
Knowing all this coupled with knowledge of myself, I must ask: By my presence, my witness, what is it that they see? and not only those closest to me, my church, my neighbors, and the world, but also holy angels, the recording angels, and Jesus Himself? They all see something and they make an immediate judgment as to what it is I represent. It is a weighty question, a necessary question that has attached to it eternal consequences. God help me!
Self examination is not an easy thing when we measure ourselves against the great and awful Standard of righteousness. It is easy to measure ourselves to others. We have that perfected. Yet the very verses shown above tell us one thing if nothing else is comprehended: we must measure up else we be reprobates. Power through the Spirit, also known as grace, is the very power needed to meet the standard. Without it, we are all reprobates who fail in our mission to be transformed anew each day and be converted and stay converted so that we may have life and have it more abundantly. Jesus did not live a perfect life on this earth and then pay the price for sin that we should have paid and leave us as powerless orphans without a road map to righteousness. Through Him, it is possible to measure up, but He must first have our entire heart, not just part of it.
Lastly, words of wisdom from one with experience:
We are to compare our characters with the infallible standard of God's law. In order to do this, we must search the Scriptures, measuring our attainments by the word of God. Through the grace of Christ, the highest attainments in character are possible; for every soul who comes under the molding influence of the Spirit of God, may be transformed in mind and heart. In order to understand your condition, it is necessary to study the Bible, and to watch unto prayer. The apostle says, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" Let not those who are ignorant remain in ignorance. They cannot remain in ignorance, and meet the mind of God. They are to look to the cross of Calvary, and estimate the soul by the value of the offering there made. Jesus says to all believers, "Ye are My witnesses." "Ye are laborers together with God." This being true, how earnestly should each one strive to make use of every power to improve every opportunity for becoming efficient that he may be "not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord."
Every talent that has been given to men is to be exercised that it may increase in value, and all the improvement must be rendered back to God. If you are defective in manner, in voice, in education, you need not always remain in this condition. You must continually strive that you may reach a higher standard both in education and in religious experience, that you may become teachers of good things. As servants of the great King, you should individually realize that you are under obligation to improve yourselves by observation, study, and by communion with God. The word of God is able to make you wise, to guide and make you perfect in Christ. The blessed Saviour was a faultless pattern for all His followers to imitate. It is the privilege of the child of God to understand spiritual things, to be able wisely to manage that which may be intrusted to his charge. God does not provide a way whereby any one may have an excuse for doing slipshod work; and yet a great deal of this kind of work has been offered to Him by those who work in His cause, but it is not acceptable unto Him.
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....Jesus did not live a perfect life on this earth and then pay the price for sin that we should have paid and leave us as powerless orphans without a road map to righteousness. Through Him, it is possible to measure up, but He must first have our entire heart, not just part of it.... Let not those who are ignorant remain in ignorance....
Amen! I appreciate your post, Sybil! While many may expound with rebuke, judging that the Christian is claiming to have holy flesh, Christ is our only example, the Door to Eternal Life!
....a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh: Hebrews 10:20 The WAY for the penitent sinner is IN CHRIST, henceforth, through our sojourn on this earth, until our vile bodies are changed in a moment, in the twinkling of the eye.
In the context that God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34), both those who "know THE Law" and those who do not know THE LAW, must no longer "remain in ignorance" of the Truth AS IT IS in Jesus while in the "likeness of sinful flesh" (Romans 8:3). This is the main point of the counsel of the True Witness of Revelations and His emploring directive for us to anoint our eyes with eyesalve, that we may see. For all who abide in Christ, within Whom dwelt the fulness of the Godhead, bodily (Colossians 2:9), and in whom Christ dwells, ....he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him. John 7:18 All mankind may, if they would receive Christ, work the righteousness of the Godhead. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments.... 1 John 5:3
....With ruthless hands many have sought to remove the landmarks, to tear down God’s great moral standard, and to erect one of their own. In claiming holiness they measure themselves by their own standard. They do not test their actions and character by the law of God. It was by his own standard that Satan measured his actions, he represented himself before men as an angel of light; but his pretension does not make him such, by any means. There is a class of persons who are not following the example of Christ in keeping God’s law, yet they claim to be holy. They are ready to appropriate the promises of God without fulfilling the conditions upon which they are given. But their faith has no foundation; it is like sliding sand. There is another class who see the claims of the law of God, and, although it involves a cross, they choose the path of obedience, coming out and separating themselves from the world. They do not consult convenience, nor shrink from accepting the truth for fear of reproach. They step out from the path of transgression, and place their feet in the way of God’s commandments. The promises of God, which are given on condition of obedience, are for those who walk in the light of his holy word. Those who do his will may claim all the benefits the Lord has promised. The obedient do not simply cry, “Believe, all you have to do is believe in Christ;” but their faith is like Noah’s and Abraham’s, which led them to keep the commandments. They follow the example of Christ, they listen and wait to catch every word of direction from the Captain of their salvation. They respond to the voice that says, “This is the way, to walk ye in it.” Every step that Noah and Abraham took in obedience to God’s word was a step of victory. A “Thus saith the Lord” fortified Noah in doing his work of warning the world. The testimony in regard to Noah is, “And Noah did according to all that the Lord commanded him.” The path of obedience is the path in which our safety lies; for it is the willing and obedient that shall eat the good of the land. If we keep the commandments of God, we may claim his recorded promises in all their fullness. Many feel so unworthy that like the poor publican they dare not lift up so much as their eyes to heaven. They should encourage faith. We may have an intelligent faith; we may not only say we believe, but we may in meekness and confidence be able to define what we believe, and why we believe as we do. We should exercise living faith, not a blind credulity. All heaven is at the command of those who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus.
We need to come up to a higher standard, to go forward and claim our exalted privileges. We should walk humbly with God, make no proud boasts of perfection of character, but in simple faith claim every promise in the word of God; for they are for the obedient, not for the transgressors of God’s law. We are simply to believe the testimony of God, and have entire dependence on him, and all possibility of self-glory or pride will be removed. We are indeed saved by faith, not by a passive faith, but by the faith which works by love, and purifies the soul. The hand of Christ can reach the veriest sinner, and bring him back from transgression to obedience; but no Christianity is so lofty that it can soar above the requirements of God’s holy law.... The Signs of the Times March 31, 1890
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I still do not believe that the man of Romans 7 is an unconverted person as in a unconverted worldly person but, it is not someone fully converted. It is speaking about Paul the Pharisee.
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It is good that you see Romans seven is not a fully converted person, but it is a little worrisome that you may have created a new category of conversion. I think we agree on the basics, but let's make sure so we do not lead others astray on this most important point of conversion. We are either converted or we are not. There is no in between. This is the problem Christianity faces today. There are many who want to allow some to have spiritual life when they are not abiding in Christ, converted. It is the predominant teaching that allows the unconverted to stay unconverted believing they have salvation when they do not.
The Romans seven man is not converted, he has not fully surrendered to Jesus. He is not abiding in Christ, he does not have salvation. I believe we agree on this, Peter. If so, we are leading the lost in the right direction. Most professing Christians will disagree with us. This is where the battle must be fought. The lost have been taught they are rich and increased with goods and are in need of nothing. It is the Laodicean condition.
Now, let's look at this intermediary position that some want to call conversion, but is not. It is the work of the law in the sinner's life. Saul the Pharisee had to understand that he was not converted, that he did not have spiritual life, salvation. He thought he did and that he was keeping the law. He was not, not in the way Jesus requires. The law is a law of love and Saul had not love for God nor his neighbor, not the kind that God has and requires for salvation. Let's stop here for a moment and answer the concern some have from what I have said. Love does not earn salvation, but it is the evidence that one has Christ in their heart, thus it is evidence of salvation. When one does not have this love which is of God, it is evidence that one is not truly walking in a converted state. Salvation requires a death to self, and a connection with Christ, reconciliation with God. If we have Christ, we have life. If we are not filled with His Spirit, we are none of His (Romans 8:9).
So, what about Saul the Pharisee? He tells us exactly what happened to him before his conversion in Romans seven. While this has been expressed numerous times in this thread, let's do it one more time so that through repetition others might understand a truth that has been perverted and serves to keep many from making a fully heartfelt surrender to Jesus.
Romans Chapter Seven (part 1 of 2)
7:5 "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were
by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit
unto death."
When we were unconverted, sin, which is known by the law, was
done by our flesh which brings us under the condemnation of the
broken law.
7:6 "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein
we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in
the oldness of the letter."
Now we delivered from the bondage of the law (the law cannot
save, only condemn),being spiritually dead in that bondage (wages
of sin is death); that NOW being converted we should serve in the
(HOLY) Spirit, and not in outward appearance only (whited sepulchar).
7:7 "What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid.Nay, I had
not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the
law had said, Thou shalt not covet."
Shall we say the law is wrong? God forbid!!
I would not have known I was sinning and lost and condemned if it
was not for the law: I would not have known I was lusting if I did
not know the law that says, thou shalt not covet.
7:8 "But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all
manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was
dead."
Sin (transgression of the law), now that the law is known, revealed
all manner of evil in me. Before I knew the law, I did not know sin.
7:9 "For I was alive without the law once: but when the
commandment came, sin revived, and I died."
I did not know I was under condemnation (death sentence) without
a knowledge of the depth of the law: but when I found out about the
depth of the law, that it reaches to the intents of the heart, then I
became guilty [saw my guilt] and saw myself spiritually dead (the law slayed me).
7:10 "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to
be unto death."
And the commandments which are Holy and just, and given for our
good, I found to cause my spiritual death (under the condemnation
of the bronken law).
Poor Saul, he is really confused. He was brought under condemnation
by the law of God and knows not how to get out from under the
death sentence. He, like most other Pharisees, prided themselves in
keeping the law, so it was quite a shock to him to find himself a law
breaker. The Holy Spirit began to convince him of his sins after he
participated in the stoning of Stephen.
7:11 "For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me,
and by it slew me."
For breaking the commandments that I then had knowledge of, I
came under condemnation. I knew I was walking after the flesh.
7:12 "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and
just, and good."
I see the law is good.
7:13 "Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid.
But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which
is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding
sinful."
Was the good law causing me to die? God forbid!!! The
commandments showed me I was under condemnation and then I
could see the great evil of breaking the commandments.
7:14 "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold
under sin."
We know the Ten Commandments are of God, but I am unholy, and
cannot help but sin. I am a slave to sin and cannot help myself. I
cannot stop sinning. I have no good fruit in my life. I manifest the
works of the flesh for I am carnal, of the flesh.
7:15 "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not;
but what I hate, that do I."
Really, I cannot do good even though I really want to. I want to quit
stealing, but I cannot. I want to love my neighbor, but I cannot. I
hate taking the Lord's name in vain, but I do it. [let's use the sins that Saul knew he was guilty of. Anger, murder, not loving his enemy, and pride]
Paul was not converted, but he was learning of his need of a Saviour. Where are we today? Do we find ourselves in this situation, not being able to quit sinning? Not knowing how to walk in the Spirit? There is a solution to the problem. Paul will reveal the solution as we continue listening to his testimony.
I added the red portion today. Peter, you understand that Romans seven was Saul, not Paul. That is far different from what most teach. It is true that there has been a change in Saul's life with the coming of the law to his understanding. There is no peace that he had before the law came home to his heart. Now, there is only guilt. And, there is no way to be relieved of his guilt because he has not found Jesus. He believed that Jesus was an imposter until he met Him on the road to Damascus. It was then that he found the solution to his sin problem. It was then that his prayer was answered. "who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Jesus is the only answer. Saul did not know that he needed a Saviour, but he knew in Romans seven that he needed something from outside of himself. That he knew for sure and that is the lesson in Romans seven. We are created evil and in need of a Savior. We need to be reconciled to God through Jesus. We need to be filled with His Spirit. And, until that happens we do not have salvation. We may be on our way, as was Saul in discovering he was not converted and could not keep the law in and of himself. That must happen before we can be converted. The one who does not see himself as sick, will not seek out a physician.
Listen to the words of Jesus. He gives us the principle laid out by Paul in Romans seven: "They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Mark 2:17. We must see we are sick sinners before we can be saved.
God's holy law is the only standard of righteousness. It is the sin detector. We see our sins in the light of the law. We must meet its requirements. It is the only standard of righteousness; it measures our life and our character. Practical faith in Jesus Christ is the only thing that will save us; the precious blood of Jesus alone will cleanse from every spot and stain of sin.
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I would not say it is different categories of conversion but, different categories of not being converted. You are right about it being Saul not Paul, I am just used to calling him Paul. Remember the parable of the sower that it fell on 4 different types of people. Maybe the equivalent to Saul the Pharisee today would be someone who goes to church, loves God, outwardly appear Christians but, inwardly they are not, they have a form of godliness but, deny the power.
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There can only be one category of conversion but, not being converted there are different types, the way is broad that leads to destruction and narrow that leads to life. I did not grow up in church, I gave my life to God at 20 years old. Before that I had a few years after I left school where I had no desire to follow God. Romans 7 while it is still not a converted person is someone who loves God and the law, because it is a Pharisee it is someone who outwardly appear to follow God but, inwardly they do not.
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Amen! But, let's define the Romans seven man a little more clearly. Saul was a Pharisee before the Romans seven experience. Paul mentions it in Romans seven, though. "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Saul before the commandment came, thought all was well. He did not know he was condemned. Romans seven is Paul telling us about this new experience when the commandment came home to his understanding. Then he knew he was condemned and lost. This is the first step towards conversion. We must know we need a Savior. Saul knew he needed something, but he did not know it was Jesus until he met Him. He knew he was a very sick man and he despaired as we read in 7:24 "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"
There was the proud Pharisee and then came the broken Pharisee. Neither kept the law from the heart as God requires. They kept the law only outwardly, and even then it became apparent to Saul that he was guilty of murder as the commandment came home to his heart. There is the change in the Romans seven man. He knows his condition and does not know what to do. He comes to see he is condemned and that he has no power to keep the law because his flesh is the problem.
Most who teach that Romans seven is the experience of the converted Christian, give life to those who are separated from God. Sadly, in many cases they themselves are not keeping the law and believe they have salvation when they are sinning.
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There is a magnificent book most of us are familiar with - The Ministry of Healing. In chapter five there is a beautiful account of the sinner's need and the divine solution. The setting is the pool of Bethesda and the paralytic.
By sin we have been severed from the life of God. Our souls are palsied. Of ourselves we are no more capable of living a holy life than was the impotent man capable of walking. Many realize their helplessness; they are longing for that spiritual life which will bring them into harmony with God, and are striving to obtain it. But in vain. In despair they cry, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death?" Romans 7:24, margin. Let these desponding, struggling ones look up. The Saviour is bending over the purchase of His blood, saying with inexpressible tenderness and pity, "Wilt thou be made whole?" He bids you arise in health and peace. Do not wait to feel that you are made whole. Believe the Saviour's word. Put your will on the side of Christ. Will to serve Him, and in acting upon His word you will receive strength. Whatever may be the evil practice, the master passion which through long indulgence binds both soul and body, Christ is able and longs to deliver. He will impart life to the soul that is "dead in trespasses." Ephesians 2:1. He will set free the captive that is held by weakness and misfortune and the chains of sin. {MH 84.4}
The sense of sin has poisoned the springs of life. But Christ says, "I will take your sins; I will give you peace. I have bought you with My blood. You are Mine. My grace shall strengthen your weakened will; your remorse for sin I will remove." When temptations assail you, when care and perplexity surround you, when, depressed and discouraged, you are ready to yield to despair, look to Jesus, and the darkness that encompasses you will be dispelled by the bright shining of His presence. When sin struggles for the mastery in your soul, and burdens the conscience, look to the Saviour. His grace is sufficient to subdue sin. Let your grateful heart, trembling with uncertainty, turn to Him. Lay hold on the hope set before you. Christ waits to adopt you into His family. His strength will help your weakness; He will lead you step by step. Place your hand in His, and let Him guide you. {MH 85.1}
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Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost... Titus 3:5
Only the merit of Christ's life, the impartation of the life of Christ received into the developing character of the Believer and wrought out in the character of the Believer, will save that Believer. The doing of any righteous work in the Believer is the Believer, yet not the Believer, but Christ. (Galatians 2:20)
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh... Ephesians 2:1-11
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Amen!
In my studies this morning, I read something that put the gospel into very simple terms. It is the misunderstanding of the gospel that leads to the perversion of Scripture such as we have seen in Romans chapter seven.
Few, very few, really believe this following statement: "When the soul surrenders itself to Christ, a new power takes possession of the new heart. A change is wrought which man can never accomplish for himself. It is a supernatural work, bringing a supernatural element into human nature. The soul that is yielded to Christ becomes His own fortress, which He holds in a revolted world, and He intends that no authority shall be known in it but His own. A soul thus kept in possession by the heavenly agencies is impregnable to the assaults of Satan. But unless we do yield ourselves to the control of Christ, we shall be dominated by the wicked one. We must inevitably be under the control of the one or the other of the two great powers that are contending for the supremacy of the world. It is not necessary for us deliberately to choose the service of the kingdom of darkness in order to come under its dominion. We have only to neglect to ally ourselves with the kingdom of light. If we do not co-operate with the heavenly agencies, Satan will take possession of the heart, and will make it his abiding place. The only defense against evil is the indwelling of Christ in the heart through faith in His righteousness. Unless we become vitally connected with God, we can never resist the unhallowed effects of self-love, self-indulgence, and temptation to sin. We may leave off many bad habits, for the time we may part company with Satan; but without a vital connection with God, through the surrender of ourselves to Him moment by moment, we shall be overcome. Without a personal acquaintance with Christ, and a continual communion, we are at the mercy of the enemy, and shall do his bidding in the end."
It is Christ, not I. "It is a supernatural work, bringing a supernatural element into human nature. The soul that is yielded to Christ becomes His own fortress, which He holds in a revolted world, and He intends that no authority shall be known in it but His own. A soul thus kept in possession by the heavenly agencies is impregnable to the assaults of Satan."
Now, if this be true, and it is, then how can a man who is filled with the Holy Spirit, an impregnable fortress, sin? He can't, he won't. Not as long as he is abiding in Christ and Christ in Him. Can a man sin after conversion? Absolutely. Is a man filled with the Spirit of God if he sins? Absolutely not! Why does the promise of God fail that promises us we will not be tempted beyond what we can bear? It does not fail. It was never a promise to the Romans seven man who has never had the Savior within. And, it is not a promise to the Romans eight man when he separates from Jesus.
We do not believe in once saved always saved. Let go of Jesus and there is no power to resist the smallest temptation. Not for the right reason. One may not steal, because he does not want to suffer the consequences, but he does not refrain from stealing because his heart is right, but out of fear. This is not the victory over sin that the Bible teaches. No, it is a new heart that the sinner needs. It is given to all who will come to Jesus just as they are and let Him take possession of the heart. Then there is supernatural power that is seen in a new life.
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We do not believe in once saved always saved. Let go of Jesus and there is no power to resist the smallest temptation...it is a new heart that the sinner needs. It is given to all who will come to Jesus just as they are and let Him take possession of the heart. Then there is supernatural power that is seen in a new life.
I concur with you, Brother Richard, "Let go of Jesus and there is no power to resist the smallest temptation...a new heart...is given to all who will come to Jesus just as they are and let Him take possession of the heart. Then there is supernatural power that is seen in a new life."
...no authority shall be known in the soul surrendered to Christ but His own. A soul thus kept in possession by the heavenly agencies is impregnable to the assaults of Satan. The Desire of Ages 324.1
2 Timothy 2:
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
...Christ in you... Colossians 1:27 ...abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself 2 Timothy 2:12, whenEVER the Penitent Sinner, within whom He abides through His imparted Holy Spirit, is tempted.
Romans 13:
14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
Genuine faith will be manifested in good works; for good works are the fruits of faith. As God works in the heart, and man surrenders his will to God, and cooperates with God, he works out in the life what God works in by the Holy Spirit, and there is harmony between the purpose of the heart and the practice of the life. Every sin must be renounced as the hateful thing that crucified the Lord of life and glory, and the believer must have a progressive experience by continually doing the works of Christ. It is by CONTINUAL SURRENDER of the will, by CONTINUAL OBEDIENCE, that the blessing of justification is retained. A New Life (Revival and Beyond), Page 27.1
Those who are justified by faith must have a heart to KEEP the way of the Lord. It is an evidence that a man is not justified by faith when his works do not correspond to his profession. James says, “Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was his faith made perfect?” (James 2:22). A New Life (Revival and Beyond), Page 27.2
The faith that does not produce good works does not justify the soul. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only” (James 2:24). A New Life (Revival and Beyond), Page 27.3
The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us. Lift Him Up 178.4
As Christ lived the law in humanity, so we may do if we will take hold of the Strong for strength... Lift Him Up 178.5
Those who are one with Christ, in Christ, maintaining that oneness by the faith of Christ, are safe to save; "by continual surrender of the will, by continual obedience...the blessing of justification is retained...
Consecrate yourselves wholly to the work of God. He is your strength, and He will be at your right hand, helping you to carry on His merciful designs.—Testimonies for the Church 9:41.
The heavenly intelligences will work with the human agent who seeks with determined faith that perfection of character which will reach out to perfection in action. To every one engaged in this work Christ says, I am at your right hand to help you.—Christ’s Object Lessons, 332.
As the will of man co-operates with the will of God, it becomes omnipotent. Whatever is to be done at His command, may be accomplished in His strength. All His biddings are enablings.—Christ’s Object Lessons, 333
...Enoch lived a life of such close communion with God that he was not permitted to fall under the power of death. The godly character of this prophet represents the state of holiness which must be attained by those who shall be “redeemed from the earth” (Revelation 14:3) at the time of Christ’s second advent. Patriarchs and Prophets 88.3
How can we reach the perfection specified by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ—our Great Teacher? Can we meet His requirement and attain to so lofty a standard? We can, else Christ would not have enjoined us to do so. He is our righteousness. In His humanity He has gone before us and wrought out for us perfection of character. We are to have the faith in Him that works by love and purifies the soul. Perfection of character is based upon that which Christ is to us. If we have constant dependence on the merits of our Saviour, and walk in His footsteps, we shall be like Him, pure and undefiled. That I May Know Him 130.2
Our Saviour does not require impossibilities of any soul. He expects nothing of His disciples that He is not willing to give them grace and strength to perform. He would not call upon them to be perfect if He had not at His command every perfection of grace to bestow on the ones upon whom He would confer so high and holy a privilege. He has assured us that He is more willing to give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him than parents are to give good gifts to their children. That I May Know Him 130.3
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Coming back to this topic, because it is one of the great deceptions within professing Christian churches today. The false interpretations give license to sin and allows a professor of religion to believe he is saved apart from Christ.
For the last thirteen years in this topic, we have used the Bible to support the fact that in Romans seven Paul is speaking about his experience before he was converted, and in Romans eight he is revealing what is the true converted state of a Christian who is abiding in Christ. Today, I am going to share a thought from the Desire of Ages. It clearly points to the correct interpretation for verses 23 and 24 in chapter seven and verse 2 in chapter eight. We have pointed to Romans 7:23 as evidence that the chapter cannot be after conversion, for it reveals the person is still a captive to sin. When a person is truly converted, he is set free from sin. It is the power of grace and the indwelling presence of the Spirit that sets us free from sin, even though it remains in our flesh. It is kept under by the power of God.
Prayerfully read the following if you are not thoroughly grounded in this truth. I am sharing enough so that the context can be understood. Jesus is speaking before the Sanhedrin to those who wish to murder Him.
Israel had chosen their own ways. They had not builded according to the pattern; but Christ, the true temple for God's indwelling, molded every detail of His earthly life in harmony with God's ideal. He said, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalm 40:8. So our characters are to be builded "for an habitation of God through the Spirit." Ephesians 2:22. And we are to "make all things according to the pattern," even Him who "suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow His steps." Hebrews 8:5; 1 Peter 2:21.
The words of Christ teach that we should regard ourselves as inseparably bound to our Father in heaven. Whatever our position, we are dependent upon God, who holds all destinies in His hands. He has appointed us our work, and has endowed us with faculties and means for that work. So long as we surrender the will to God, and trust in His strength and wisdom, we shall be guided in safe paths, to fulfill our appointed part in His great plan. But the one who depends upon his own wisdom and power is separating himself from God. Instead of working in unison with Christ, he is fulfilling the purpose of the enemy of God and man.
The Saviour continued: "What things soever He [the Father] doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. . . . As the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom He will." The Sadducees held that there would be no resurrection of the body; but Jesus tells them that one of the greatest works of His Father is raising the dead, and that He Himself has power to do the same work. "The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." The Pharisees believed in the resurrection of the dead. Christ declares that even now the power which gives life to the dead is among them, and they are to behold its manifestation. This same resurrection power is that which gives life to the soul "dead in trespasses and sins." Ephesians 2:1. That spirit of life in Christ Jesus, "the power of His resurrection," sets men "free from the law of sin and death." Philippians 3:10; Romans 8:2. The dominion of evil is broken, and through faith the soul is kept from sin. He who opens his heart to the Spirit of Christ becomes a partaker of that mighty power which shall bring forth his body from the grave. DA 209, 210.
Romans 8:2 says "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." And, the interpretation is just that. Those who are truly converted are not captive to the law of sin. They are set free from it.
In the Desire of Ages we read two important truths perverted by the false teaching of Romans seven. First, we see that man can be set free from sin even though it remains in his flesh. This is made very clear throughout the Bible. Most professing Christians reject this and believe that because we have to live in these vile bodies of death, that we must therefore sin. That is a most ridiculous and absurd thought. The wages of sin is death. The reason for a period of probation is to see if we will allow Christ to give us enmity towards Satan and sin. A period of time to learn of God and to allow Him to come into our hearts and purify them and cleanse us from all sin. "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:7-9.
The very same thing is said in Desire of Ages. That spirit of life in Christ Jesus, "the power of His resurrection," sets men "free from the law of sin and death." Philippians 3:10; Romans 8:2. The dominion of evil is broken, and through faith the soul is kept from sin. He who opens his heart to the Spirit of Christ becomes a partaker of that mighty power which shall bring forth his body from the grave.
Why it is that Paul used the phrase in 8:2, let's go back a few verses to 7:23. "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."
In Romans seven, Paul says that he was in "captivity to the law of sin". One cannot be both captive and free at the same time. One is either converted and set free from the law of sin, or he is not converted and still captive to the law of sin. Ellen White made it very clear that Christ sets us free from the law of sin. She says "The dominion of evil is broken, and through faith the soul is kept from sin.
We also are given the correct interpretation of Romans 7:24. " O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" The false teaching claims this to be the experience of the converted Christian, that he remains captive to sin and retains his wretched condition because he has not been delivered "from the body of this death." The truth is that Paul has tried to keep the law, but was unable to because he did not know Jesus as Saviour. He was attempting to keep the law in his own strength as a good Pharisee always did. He then saw that it was his flesh that was the problem and he could not get away from it.
What do we read in the Desire of Ages where this verse is quoted? The context, Jesus has just healed the paralytic.
Jesus had given him no assurance of divine help. The man might have stopped to doubt, and lost his one chance of healing. But he believed Christ's word, and in acting upon it he received strength.
Through the same faith we may receive spiritual healing. By sin we have been severed from the life of God. Our souls are palsied. Of ourselves we are no more capable of living a holy life than was the impotent man capable of walking. There are many who realize their helplessness, and who long for that spiritual life which will bring them into harmony with God; they are vainly striving to obtain it. In despair they cry, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death?" Romans 7:24, margin. Let these desponding, struggling ones look up. The Saviour is bending over the purchase of His blood, saying with inexpressible tenderness and pity, "Wilt thou be made whole?" He bids you arise in health and peace. Do not wait to feel that you are made whole. Believe His word, and it will be fulfilled. Put your will on the side of Christ. Will to serve Him, and in acting upon His word you will receive strength. Whatever may be the evil practice, the master passion which through long indulgence binds both soul and body, Christ is able and longs to deliver. He will impart life to the soul that is "dead in trespasses." Ephesians 2:1. He will set free the captive that is held by weakness and misfortune and the chains of sin. DA 203
Here Ellen White clearly reveals that the words uttered at 7:24 are the words of one who is not converted, who longs to be set free from sin. She goes on to say that it is indeed not only possible to be set free from sin, but it is the result of our faith in Christ to deliver us from sin. "Christ is able and longs to deliver" us. "He will impart life to the soul that is dead in trespasses" and sins.
Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. If we want to know truth and are willing to walk in the light, then God will open our minds to the truth. If this were not a major doctrine perverted by Satan, we would not labor so long and hard to set the truth plainly before the church. It is important that Romans seven and eight be understood correctly, or else we will continue to have multitudes who believe they are rich and increased with goods when in fact they are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked.
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Israel had chosen their own ways. They had not builded according to the pattern; but Christ, the true temple for God's indwelling, molded every detail of His earthly life in harmony with God's ideal. He said, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalm 40:8. So our characters are to be builded "for an habitation of God through the Spirit." Ephesians 2:22. And we are to "make all things according to the pattern," even Him who "suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow His steps." Hebrews 8:5; 1 Peter 2:21.
"So our characters are to be builded "for an habitation of God through the Spirit." "
Those who believe they cannot overcome sin, do not have the spiritual eyesight to comprehend the work of the Believer who is hid in Christ; and, subsequently; though they have a body of flesh and bones (-are dead- ...she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth. 1 Timothy 5:6), they have no "inner court" for the Holy Spirit to dwell in. Thus...the life also of Jesus is not made manifest in their body. 2 Corinthians 4:10
...The glorious, sanctifying truths of the Bible have been left in the outer court. The truths of eternal interest that should govern and control the life, are considered by many altogether too sublime for common life. But it is essential that the great and grand truth,—the imparting of the Holy Spirit, should be brought into contact with, and impregnate little things, and supply the powerful motive to holiness, and lay out in clear lines, broad principles for the regulation of the character and conduct of every day, revealing Christ to the world...
Appeal and Suggestions to Conference Officers, p. 25.1
We may, like the Jews in Christ’s day, manifest the greatest outward reverence for God, and yet profane His name continually. “The name of the Lord” is “merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth ... forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin” (Exodus 34:5-7). Of the church of Christ it is written, “This is the name wherewith she shall be called, The Lord our Righteousness” (Jeremiah 33:16). This name is put upon every follower of Christ. It is the heritage of the child of God. The family are called after the Father. The prophet Jeremiah, in the time of Israel’s sore distress and tribulation, prayed, “We are called by thy name; leave us not” (Jeremiah 14:9).
The Believer doesn't become Christ, but is a member of His Body, His Bride; to adore and adorn Him in every way: This is the name wherewith she shall be called, The Lord our Righteousness. Jeremiah 33:16
Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. 1 Corinthians 12:27
This name is hallowed by the angels of heaven, by the inhabitants of unfallen worlds. When you pray, “Hallowed be thy name,” you ask that it may be hallowed in this world, hallowed in you. God has acknowledged you before men and angels as His child; pray that you may do no dishonor to the “worthy name by the which ye are called” (James 2:7). God sends you into the world as His representative. In every act of life you are to make manifest the name of God. This petition calls upon you to possess His character. You cannot hallow His name, you cannot represent Him to the world, unless in life and character you represent the very life and character of God. This you can do only through the acceptance of the grace and righteousness of Christ.—Thoughts from the Mount of Blessing, 106, 107.
Exodus 34:
6 ...The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty...
Hebrews 5:
So also Christ glorified not himself...
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him...
Malachi 3:
16 ...they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.
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Amen, Glen.
In my devotions this morning, I was reminded that the greatest miracle that God can do is to change a sinner into a saint. I remember a time when I was sick, very sick. I was being tested. After the test, I passed it by God's grace, I thought it appropriate to ask God to work a miracle. The Holy Spirit revealed to me right then, that I had just witnessed the greatest of all miracles, I had trusted fully in Jesus with my life.
The Christian's life is a life dedicated to God. Not just in profession, but in doing. Here, we find Satan at work. He comes in with a lie, that it is impossible to do what God asks of us, that we are fallen by nature and cannot obey the law of God. Those who teach Romans seven to be the Christian experience, often believe this. It is why they insist that Romans seven is the converted Christian that does what he does not want to do, and does not do that which he knows he ought to do. They believe and teach that it is our nature and at our best we are failures when it comes to doing that which God commands. There are influences put forward today in an attempt to make the law of God conform to the practices of those who do not keep the law. These teachers do not attack the law openly, but put forward theories that undermine its principles. They explain it so as to destroy its force.
It is impossible to give glory to God when self is alive. When one receives Christ through the Holy Spirit, there is implanted a zeal for God's glory. When the faith we accept destroys selfishness and pretense, when it leads us to seek God's glory and not our own, we may know that it is real faith. "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:3,4. "Father, glorify Thy name" (John 12:28), was the keynote of Christ's life, and if we follow Him, this will be the keynote of our life. We are commanded to "walk, even as He walked;" and "hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments." 1 John 2:6, 3. None are saved while knowingly transgressing the law of God.
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Many are deceived in regards to Romans seven. They believe it to be the Christian experience after conversion. They give salvation to those who do that which they do not want to do and don't do that which they ought to do. The apostle Paul writes “I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.” The law which promised life to the obedient pronounced death upon the transgressor. “Wherefore,” he says, “the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.” How wide the contrast between these words of Paul and those that come from many of the pulpits of today. The people are taught that obedience to God’s law is not necessary to salvation; that they have only to believe in Jesus, and they are safe. Without the law, human beings have no conviction of sin, and feel no need of repentance. Not seeing their lost condition as violators of God’s law, they do not feel their need of the atoning blood of Christ as their only hope of salvation.
The law of God is an agent in every genuine conversion. There can be no true repentance without conviction of sin. The Scriptures declare that “sin is the transgression of the law,” and that “by the law is the knowledge of sin.” In order to see their guilt, sinners must test their character by God’s great standard of righteousness. To discover their defects, they must look into the mirror of the divine statutes. But while the law reveals their sins, it provides no remedy. The gospel of Christ alone can offer pardon. In order to stand forgiven, sinners must exercise repentance toward God, whose law has been transgressed, and faith in Christ, their atoning sacrifice.
Without true repentance, there can be no true conversion. Many are deceived here, and too often their entire experience proves to be a deception. This is why so many who are joined to the church have never been joined to Christ. “The carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” In the new birth, the heart is renewed by divine grace, and brought into harmony with God as it is brought into subjection to His law. When this mighty change has taken place, the sinner has passed from death unto life, from sin unto holiness, from transgression and rebellion to obedience and loyalty. The old life of alienation from God has ended; the new life of reconciliation, of faith and love, has begun. Then will “the righteousness of the law” “be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”
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The Law provides no remedy for the transgressor who still needs to look to the Law of Liberty:
...sinners must test their character by God’s great standard of righteousness. To discover their defects, they must look into the mirror of the divine statutes. But while the law reveals their sins, it provides no remedy...
The Law of God, received by the Penitent; who, is "free indeed" (John 8:36), "works in us purity of character:
...As received in Christ, it (God's Law) works in us the purity of character that will bring joy to us through eternal ages... S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 6, Page 1110.4
We are not to regard God as waiting to punish the sinner for his sin. The sinner brings the punishment upon himself. His own actions start a train of circumstances that bring the sure result. Every act of transgression reacts upon the sinner, works in him a change of character, and makes it more easy for him to transgress again. By choosing to sin, men separate themselves from God, cut themselves off from the channel of blessing, and the sure result is ruin and death.
S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 6, p. 1085.6
The law is an expression of God’s idea. When we receive it (God's Law) in Christ, it (God's Law) becomes our idea. It (God's Law) lifts us above the power of natural desires and tendencies, above temptations that lead to sin.
Manuscript 23a, 1896
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It is true that some are deceived and use Romans 7 as an excuse for sin but to excuse it is to defend it. We make our sin bigger than the power of God. The experience of the man in Romans 7 is not one of someone struggling and having victory but of someone who is not having any measure of success in growing in Christ. If the life of the Christian is one of constant failure and never being able to do good what would be the point in becoming a Christian?
While we might even have the correct understanding of Romans 7 have we really entered into this Saul's experience. Jesus gives a parable of those who come into the sheepfold by some other way rather than through the sheep gate. He says they are thief's and robbers. Why are they thief's and robbers because they never truly felt their need of a savior. They were never poor, wretched, blind or naked. I have meet people who can say yes I am all of this but only say it because they know it is the correct thing to say but it is still quite another thing to really know it by experience. Paul or Saul is sharing how he came to see his complete helplessness and nothingness then he was able to grab hold of the right hand of God which is recorded in Romans 8:1 When Paul saw the law of God in its correct light he then knew that his heart was selfish and wicked. Before this experience he was very proud of his self righteous life. He keep the law outwardly to the T.
"The greatest deception of the human mind in Christ's day was that a mere assent to the truth constitutes righteousness. In all human experience a theoretical knowledge of the truth has been proved to be insufficient for the saving of the soul. It does not bring forth the fruits of righteousness. A jealous regard for what is termed theological truth often accompanies a hatred of genuine truth as made manifest in life. The darkest chapters of history are burdened with the record of crimes committed by bigoted religionists. The Pharisees claimed to be children of Abraham, and boasted of their possession of the oracles of God; yet these advantages did not preserve them from selfishness, malignity, greed for gain, and the basest hypocrisy. They thought themselves the greatest religionists of the world, but their so-called orthodoxy led them to crucify the Lord of glory.
The same danger still exists. Many take it for granted that they are Christians, simply because they subscribe to certain theological tenets. But they have not brought the truth into practical life. They have not believed and loved it, therefore they have not received the power and grace that come through sanctification of the truth. Men may profess faith in the truth; but if it does not make them sincere, kind, patient, forbearing, heavenly-minded, it is a curse to its possessors, and through their influence it is a curse to the world. {DA 309.3}
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Amen, Al! When one is truly converted and abiding in Christ, every one of the fruits of His Spirit are in the life, not one is missing. We may keep the wrong day, eat the wrong food, dress the wrong way, all in ignorance, but if we are filled with His Spirit, we shall manifest the character of our Lord when it comes to the the fruits of the Spirit. "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." 1 John 1:7.
And, yes Glen, to the convert abiding in Christ, the law is a delight. By walking in the light, the character is made strong by habit. Abiding in Christ, when trials come, we grow in our patience, and we grow in our faith. Jesus delivers us in the middle of the fire. Nothing like experience to move us forward! Experience in trust in Jesus.
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Concerning God's Law and it's efficacy to save the sinner, I understand that the words: "...while the law reveals their sins, it provides no remedy." --may be found in To Be Like Jesus, p. 381.5 I agree with that.
I'm interested in what is available to the Believer, going onward from victory to victory, resting from his own works (Hebrews 4:10), relying upon God alone as his faithful Creator (1 Peter 4:19), acting upon His Word, (spiritually) as did each individual in Scripture who was healed, (physically) for instance. This is truly resting in Christ, the essence of the 4th Commandment Sabbath, that "rest to the people of God" (Hebrews 4:9). This "rest" may take one onward, not only toward, but to perfection in this life, especially exhibited by those who are translated without seeing death. The scales have fallen from their eyes, they know their wretchedness, their blindness, their poverty, their nakedness apart from Christ; yet they by faith grasp the promises of God, are made partaker of the divine nature, overcoming "in the nature we have, that has been redeemed by the Son of God"
(S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 5, p. 1142.5)
God's Word, magnified through our faithful Creator, was made flesh; manifested as Jesus Christ on this Earth; representing simultaneously, humanity inhabited by divinity; Emmanuel, God with us (Matthew 1:23), as our example of what we are to become.
If the heart is living, it will send the lifeblood to every part of the body. Those whose hearts are filled with spiritual life will not need to be urged to reveal this life. The divine life will flow forth from them in rich currents of grace. As they pray, and as they speak, God is glorified. Reflecting Christ, p. 197.5
The Believer, in receiving Jesus Christ through the impartation of His Spirit (Gods Amazing Grace, p. 212.4), represents Jesus, as He represented the Father; humanity united to, and inhabited by, divinity (Gods Amazing Grace, p. 14.4). It is God the Father that works; as Christ works; the Believer works. This WORK is integral to the Gospel of Faith; FAITH that works. God the Father “first trusted in Christ” (Ephesians 1:12); Christ could do nothing of Himself (John 5:30); neither, will the Believer, without Him (John 15:5). The Believer works, but not he, but Christ works (Galatians 3:20). As the Believer humbles himself as Christ did, the Believer will work as Christ works; this is called the work of God.
God will work through us [to do] the good pleasure of His will. But He cannot work through us if we make no effort. If we gain eternal life, we must work, and work earnestly.... Let us not be deceived by the oft-repeated assertion, “All you have to do is to believe.” Faith and works are two oars which we must use equally if we [would] press our way up the stream against the current of unbelief. “Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” The Christian is a man of thought and practice. His faith fixes its roots firmly in Christ. By faith and good works he keeps his spirituality strong and healthy, and his spiritual strength increases as he strives to work the works of God.—The Review and Herald, June 11, 1901.
The gold tried in the fire is faith that works by love. Only this can bring us into harmony with God. We may be active, we may do much work; but without love, such love as dwelt in the heart of Christ, we can never be numbered with the family of heaven.
Christ’s Object Lessons, Page 158
“He that believeth on Me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto My Father.” Verse 12. Christ did not mean that the disciples would make more exalted exertions than He had made, but that their work would have greater magnitude. He referred to all that would take place under the agency of the Holy Spirit.
From Trials to Triumph, p. 14.2
Wonderfully were these words fulfilled. After the descent of the Spirit, the disciples were so filled with love that hearts were melted by the words they spoke and the prayers they offered. Under the influence of the Spirit thousands were converted. From Trials to Triumph, p. 14.3
As Christ’s representatives the apostles were to make a decided impression on the world. Their words of courage and trust would assure all that it was not in their own power that they worked, but in the power of Christ. They would declare that He whom the Jews had crucified was the Prince of life and that in His name they did the works that He had done. From Trials to Triumph, p. 14.4
No requirement is laid upon man that Christ has not obeyed. We can overcome as He overcame, if we will avail ourselves of the help of the three great powers of heaven, who are waiting to answer the demand made upon them by God’s people for power to defeat satanic agencies. Notebook Leaflets from the Elmshaven Library Vol. 1, p. 124.1
As Jesus was in human nature, so God means His followers to be. In His strength we are to live the life of purity and nobility which the Saviour lived. Testimonies For The Church 8:286, 289.
What speech is to thought, so is Christ to the invisible Father. He is the manifestation of the Father, and is called the Word of God. God sent His Son into the world, His divinity clothed with humanity, that man might bear the image of the invisible God. He made known in His words, His character, His power and majesty, the nature and attributes of God. Divinity flashed through humanity in softening, subduing light. He was the embodiment of the law of God, which is the transcript of His character (Manuscript 77, 1899).
When we individually rest upon Christ, with full assurance of faith, trusting alone to the efficacy of his blood to cleanse from all sin, we shall have peace in believing that what God has promised he is able to perform. As Christ represented the Father, so we are to represent Christ to the world. We cannot transfer our obligation to others. God desires to make known to you what is the richness of his glory, that you may preach the mystery of salvation to those around you,—Christ in you the hope of glory. RH March 5, 1889, par. 6
God can and will do a great work for every human being who will open the heart to the word of God, and let it enter the soul-temple and expel every idol. Summoned to the effort, mind and heart take in the wonderful disclosures of the revealed will of God. The soul that is converted will be made stronger to resist evil. In the study of the Bible the converted soul eats the flesh and drinks the blood of the Son of God, which He himself interprets as the receiving and doing of His words, that are spirit and life. The Word is made flesh, and dwells among us, in those who receive the holy precepts of the word of God. The Saviour of the world has left a holy, pure example for all men. It illuminates, uplifts, and brings immortality to all who obey the divine requirements. Fundamentals of Christian Education, p. 378.1
They will follow Christ’s way of managing difficulties, remembering that he is the Finisher as well as the Author of their faith. They will remember that if they are to wear Christ’s yoke, they must do as he did. They will leave in God’s hands the things to be done and the things to be suffered, remembering that they are not under the control of self, but that they have given themselves up to be laborers together with Christ, and that they are to learn from him the way to overcome evil with good in all that they are called upon to suffer. SW January 29, 1903, par. 5
Let those who are tried and tempted consider these questions, How do you deal with your difficulties? Do you harness yourself for an encounter with trial and temptation? And then do you lay hold on these temptations, as you suppose you must, while your spirit is hot within you, and wrestle with them, quite sure that this is what you ought to do? As you battle with your covetousness and uncharitableness on their own ground, do you come out victor?—No; you come out discouraged, bruised, and wounded, bound, and enfeebled spiritually. SW January 29, 1903, par. 6
What should you do?—Simply put your whole trust in the One who understands your temptations and trials, the One who alone can master temptation. If you had not been premature in your efforts, you need not have fought so terrible a battle; for the Captain of your salvation was at work for you, ready to do for you that which you can not do for yourself, and to leave you free to do that which he has told you to do,—learn of him his meekness and lowliness. He has been tempted in all points “like as we are,” and he knows how to succor those who are tempted. Had you first talked with God in prayer, by faith grasping his promises, you would have received strength for the conflict. SW January 29, 1903, par. 7
When we believe the promise, “Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world,” we shall be strong to endure. We need a constant sense of the abiding presence of Christ. He is our righteousness. SW January 29, 1903, par. 8
2 Corinthians 4:
10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
...dedicated to the work of making known the gospel of salvation. Heaven’s perfection is to be your power.
Testimony Treasures Volume 3, p. 289.2
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Amen, Glen!!
We try very hard to point all to Jesus and His Word. Too many look to man rather than to God. But, God does send teachers (that point all to Christ and His Word). We have not pointed to others as a reason to believe the Truth. But, it is a blessing to listen to truth come from human lips. Here is a short video on Romans 7. Take a little time to listen to what this pastor has to say about the subject. It Is Written (http://www.itiswritten.com/television/episodes/7549)
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I appreciate the "bent", that "new mind" the Believer, one "born again" -"of the Spirit", that nerves the soul to think and to do "after His likeness". God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh (Romans 8:3):
Romans 6:
17 ...ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 ...as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Ephesians 1:
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
John 5:
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 1:
12 ...as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
The Believer has inherited a new nature, even Christ's divine nature, enabling him to experience His resurrection power in his mortal body:
Colossians 2:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Thus the Believer, "lost in the divine being", triumphs in and through the wonderful plan of Our Heavenly Father (parent).
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Amen! And not only experiences the Kingdom of God now, but is a true witness of Jesus Christ. When we sin, we misrepresent our god. This is the reason for our being, to enable others to know the gospel, the good news of God's love for us while we were yet sinners! Have a blessed Sabbath, Brother Glen!
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I purpose to focus on what I may be, and become more fully, IN Christ, and in His body the Church, of which I am become a "member in particular" (1 Corinthians 12:27); part, and parcel.
Colossians 1:
19 ...it pleased the Father that in (Christ) should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel...which...
24 ...Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
25 ...to fulfil the word of God;
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Thank you, Brother Richard; may His divine "rest" be ours as we fellowship with the Brethren who are like-minded, provoking all to love and every good work, much like Paul encouraged Timothy to be an example even in the "youth" of his experience (1 Timothy 5:1; 1 Timothy 4:12); and, as Peter, under inspiration of that same Spirit:
2 Peter 3:
1 ...stir up (our) pure minds by way of remembrance:
2 That (we) may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts...
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Amen, Glen. Christ in us, the hope of glory.
It is true that after conversion, we still live in these vile bodies of fallen flesh. But, that is no excuse for sin. Jesus had a dual nature. He came in the "likeness of sinful flesh", but He was God. We have sinful flesh, but we may become partakers of His divine nature. Thus, we are given power to keep the flesh (body) under at all times. "But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." 1 Corinthians 9:27.
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Amen, Glen. Christ in us, the hope of glory.
It is true that after conversion, we still live in these vile bodies of fallen flesh. But, that is no excuse for sin. Jesus had a dual nature. He came in the "likeness of sinful flesh", but He was God. We have sinful flesh, but we may become partakers of His divine nature. Thus, we are given power to keep the flesh (body) under at all times. "But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." 1 Corinthians 9:27.
Thus; the Penitent have a dual nature. Though in sinful flesh, the Penitent are become partaker of the Divine Nature:
...conscious that they are breathing the breath of heaven, the only atmosphere in which the soul can live...By obedience they are made partakers of the divine nature. The doing of the living principles of the law of God makes them one with Christ. And He has pledged Himself to raise them up at the last day...as a part of Himself. Manuscript Releases Volume Twenty-one [Nos. 1501-1598], p. 347.4
...one with Christ...Subjection to God is restoration to one’s self,—to the true glory and dignity of man. The Desire of Ages, p. 466.5
The prophets and apostles did not perfect Christian character by a miracle. They used the means which God had placed within their reach, and all who will put forth a like effort will secure a like result. The Spirit of Prophecy Volume 4, p. 305.
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Forgive if I cover old ground here as I don't have time right now to go back and read all the pages already posted. But something I read this morning reminded me of a Sabbath School a few weeks ago. We were discussing having victory in Jesus. If I remember correctly it was the week that Daniel was used as an example of being a missionary. We were talking about how we can through Christ have victory in our lives over sin. Then one elderly saint brought up how thankful he was that we have Paul's example in Romans 7 of not doing the things he wants but doing the things he doesn't want.
I was there listening to and trying how best to answer this man kindly without offending. Then a lady raised her hand and when called on she said yes.. but we don't have to stay in Romans 7 because Paul shows that we can have victory in Romans 8 and the discussion moved on. It was done really nice and for that I'm thankful.
Then this morning I read the following which to me, at least, confirms that Romans 7 should not be the life of a Christian as she equates this experience as someone who is not in harmony with God.
Through the same faith we may receive spiritual healing. By sin we have been severed from the life of God. Our souls are palsied. Of ourselves we are no more capable of living a holy life than was the impotent man capable of walking. There are many who realize their helplessness, and who long for that spiritual life which will bring them into harmony with God; they are vainly striving to obtain it. In despair they cry, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death?" Romans 7:24, margin. Let these desponding, struggling ones look up. The Saviour is bending over the purchase of His blood, saying with inexpressible tenderness and pity, "Wilt thou be made whole?" He bids you arise in health and peace. Do not wait to feel that you are made whole. Believe His word, and it will be fulfilled. Put your will on the side of Christ. Will to serve Him, and in acting upon His word you will receive strength. Whatever may be the evil practice, the master passion which through long indulgence binds both soul and body, Christ is able and longs to deliver. He will impart life to the soul that is "dead in trespasses." Ephesians 2:1. He will set free the captive that is held by weakness and misfortune and the chains of sin. {DA 203.2}
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Amen, Brother JimB, and thanks for sharing your experience. It reminds me of the time nearly 30 yrs ago, a local SDA Pastor, during Prayer Meeting and specifically studying Romans 7, was saying the same things suggested by that "one elderly saint" you mention. When my Dad and I kindly yet soberly encouraged the group to ponder the next chapter and the reality that it is God's intention to have His people go on to victory, one of the women, considered by all as a "member in good standing", screamed loudly with neck veins bulging, that we were of the devil; and the Pastor promptly escorted us to the Church Exit, saying that we were not welcome.
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While re-reading this topic I came across a statement made by cp. It is interesting and needs to be further investigated.
Here is cp's statement in reply to what Sister Mimi had been teaching on conversion.
" None are fully converted until their characters are perfected and character perfection is the work of a lifetime. " Do you believe that ?
No, I don't. What you appear to describe is progressive conversion. What the Bible speaks of is progressive growth in sanctification which produces character perfection.
When we are born again, that is the point of conversion. We are as babes. John 3:3; 1Peter 2:2. Born again means a transformation, a new birth in Christ Jesus. It is not progressive but it does come after a long protracted period of wooing by the Holy Spirit. Either we are converted and become a new creature in Christ or we don't. We are never a little bit converted or half-way converted or 7/8ths converted. And, we remain converted as we abide in Christ, never letting go or taking our eyes off of Him. Sanctification, however, is progressive, and IT is the work of a lifetime, where we "may grow up into him in all things." Ephesians 4:15.
Tesimonies For the Church page 505 paragraph 2 " ...... Every living Christian will advance daily in the divine life. As he advances toward perfection, he experiences a conversion to God every day: and this conversion is not completed until he attains to perfection of Christian character, a full preparation for the finishing touch of immortality."
What you feel sister is just more human reasoning is a direct quote from Inspiration. I believe it.
I am not addressing what cp believes, but what the quote means in the context of the new birth. We are attempting to show that one sin, a known sin, reveals a separation between man and God and therefore reveals the need to be re-justified, reconverted. In other words, the commonly taught doctrine that one may retain salvation when sinning a known sin is a false gospel. We want to reconcile the statement shared by cp with the gospel truth that conversion brings forth a "new heart" cleansed from sin.
Let's first look at the quote cp shared, but from another Book. Notice how the first paragraph is stating perfection in the context of "translation" which is not the perfection obtained when truly converted.
The Christian life is constantly an onward march. Jesus sits as a refiner and purifier of His people; and when His image is perfectly reflected in them, they are perfect and holy, and prepared for translation. A great work is required of the Christian. We are exhorted to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Here we see where the great labor rests. There is a constant work for the Christian.
None are living Christians unless they have a daily experience in the things of God and daily practice self-denial, cheerfully bearing the cross and following Christ. Every living Christian will advance daily in the divine life. As he advances toward perfection, he experiences a conversion to God every day; and this conversion is not completed until he attains to perfection of Christian character, a full preparation for the finishing touch of immortality. AG 291.
The context of the quote in question is not saying we can sin when converted, it is stating that we must be converted daily and God is not finished until we are ready for translation. But, not all will attain this state of holiness. But, all who will enter heaven must have been truly converted. When converted, the "baby" Christian is holy and has a pure an undefiled heart. As cp pointed out, God looks upon the heart. The heart of a truly converted Christian is pure and holy, cleansed from sin. His conversion is not complete in that it must be a daily, even moment by moment conversion. And, for some, it will not be complete until they perfectly reflect the character of Christ.
Here we see what appears to be a contradiction, but is not. It has to do with the definition of perfect. When something is perfect, we do not generally think it can be improved upon. But, let's look at the life of Christ. He was always perfect, was He not? But, did He not mature? He was not ready for Gethsemane when He was 12. "Though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered." Hebrews 5:8. So it is with all who are abiding in Christ, they too are "perfect" at that stage of their Christian experience. They are partakers of God's divine nature as long as the Holy Spirit indwells their hearts. They possess the mind of Christ and their motives are pure and holy. If they allow their minds to wander away from Christ, then they no longer are connected to Christ and have no power to resist the smallest temptation. They may not sin outwardly, but as cp said, God looks upon the heart. He knows if we love Him supremely or if self is alive and well.
Here is another statement that may help us to rightly understand Romans seven is not the experience of a converted Christian.
If we make God our trust, we have it in our power to control the mind in these things. Through continued exercise, it will become strong to battle with internal foes, and to subdue self, until there is a complete transformation, and the passions, appetite, and will are brought into perfect subjection. Then there will be daily piety at home and abroad, and when we engage in labor for souls, a power will attend our efforts. The humble Christian will have seasons of devotion which are not spasmodic, fitful, or superstitious; but calm and tranquil, deep, constant, and earnest. The love of God, the practice of holiness, will be pleasant when there is a perfect surrender to God. Review and Herald, May 19, 1885.
This is not the perfection of those who will live after probation closes, those whose character "perfectly reflects the character of Christ." Here a "complete transformation" does not mean there will not be further growth (sanctification). It means that the sinner has found He needs Christ all of the time and understands how to maintain that experience. If we look at Peter's experience prior to the cross we find he could walk on water, but did not understand how to walk on water. He thought he could walk on water when he took his eyes off of Jesus. Can we walk in the Spirit without keeping our eyes on Jesus?
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Those who come up to every point, and stand every test, and overcome, be the price what it may, have heeded the counsel of the True Witness, and they will be fitted by the latter rain for translation. Spiritual Gifts, vol. 2, p. 225.1
God proves his people in this world. This is the fitting up place to appear in his presence. Here, in this world, in these last days, individuals will show what power affects their hearts and controls their actions. If it is the power of divine truth, it will lead to good works. It will elevate the receiver, and make him noble-hearted and generous, like his divine Lord. Spiritual Gifts, vol. 2, p. 225.2
The completeness of Christian character is attained when the impulse to help and bless others springs constantly from within; when the sunshine of heaven fills the heart, and is expressed in the countenance. RH March 27, 1900, par. 16
…when we love the world as He has loved it, then for us His mission is accomplished. We are fitted for heaven; for we have heaven in our hearts. God's Amazing Grace, p. 54.6
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Amen, Glen.
What we are attempting to do at this moment is to separate Romans 7 from Romans 8. Romans 8 does not address translation, but the Christian life after conversion. Here is where the great deception is found. So many have been taught Romans 7 is the Christian experience, that when in a converted state we do the things we ought not do. In other words we sin in a converted state.
My last post reveals when in a truly converted state there has been a transformation character that has cleansed the heart.
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We have 21 pages in this topic that cover 16 years. I have spent an hour or so reviewing some of it. It is not easy to overcome an incorrect belief when it has been taught in church and accepted over a long period of time. What is impossible with man, is possible with God. Because the error regarding Romans seven and eight is so great and has led so many off the foundation of our faith, we continue this discussion. It will be helpful to some who take time to read through this topic.
It has been a joy to teach about the conversion of Paul (Saul). It is a great blessing to be able to use these two chapters to point to our continual need of Jesus. These chapters reveal how evil we are by nature, and how powerful is the grace of God.
One of the beautiful truths that can be opened by a correct understanding of Romans seven is how Saul was converted. We will not find an exact explanation that explains how Christ won his heart, but it is revealed in pieces that make it so very easy to see. Here a little, there a little, and the picture is painted as clear as the sun at mid-day.
We are all saved by grace. Here is an exercise that will be a blessing to all who continue on with it. I am going to share a statement that will open the door a little wider than the verse I just quoted. It would be easy to repeat the lesson as I have taught it for many years, but how much better to learn it for yourself and be taught by Scripture and the Holy Spirit!
Through His servants, God gave the Jewish people a last opportunity to repent. He manifested Himself through His witnesses in their arrest, in their trial, and in their imprisonment. Yet their judges pronounced on them the death sentence. They were men of whom the world was not worthy, and by killing them the Jews crucified afresh the Son of God. So it will be again. The authorities will make laws to restrict religious liberty. They will assume the right that is God's alone. They will think they can force the conscience, which God alone should control. Even now they are making a beginning; this work they will continue to carry forward till they reach a boundary over which they cannot step. God will interpose in behalf of His loyal, commandment-keeping people.
On every occasion when persecution takes place, those who witness it make decisions either for Christ or against Him. Those who manifest sympathy for the ones wrongly condemned show their attachment for Christ. Others are offended because the principles of truth cut directly across their practice. Many stumble and fall, apostatizing from the faith they once advocated. Those who apostatize in time of trial will, to secure their own safety, bear false witness, and betray their brethren. Christ has warned us of this, that we may not be surprised at the unnatural, cruel course of those who reject the light.
The pieces of the puzzle are set before you in Scripture and enlightened in the Spirit of Prophecy. Share with us how God's Spirit brought Saul to the point of conversion.
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This morning the Pastor's sermon was on temptation and how Jesus was tempted in all points as we are. He then talked about the Christian's struggle with sin and took us to Roman's 7. After his sermon I asked him if Roman's 7 was talking about Paul in his unconverted state or converted. He paused and said, "you know...a lot of people ask that question". He then went to Roman's 7 on his IPad and attempted to "prove" to me that Paul is talking about his conversion experience.
I disagreed but he said that this is the experience of everyone of God's children until the loud cry. If it wasn't that way then he said we could boast of having "arrived". He said that through the sanctification process the Roman's 7 experience becomes less and less as we get to know Jesus better. There was no convincing him of anything else. He read v. 15 to show that Paul's experience is in the present and not past and that he does what he hates which an unconverted man would not be concerned about.
I'm now putting together some thoughts from the topic here and quotes from SOP. But I do agree with Richard that once a person believes this it is very hard for them to see it any other way. I was one of them. I believed it as the Pastor does. It took me a long time and much prayer to see the truth.
This may be a strong statement to make but I do not see how anyone can experience victory over sin if you believe that Rom. 7 is the Christian's experience.
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Amen, Dorine. His interpretation excuses sin. One has no way of knowing when they are converted and when they are not. Most are unconverted if they believe the pastor and know not that they are miserable, wretched, poor, blind, and naked.
To answer his belief about having arrived, we do not believe in once saved always saved. Yet, many believe in a form of it. They really do believe once one is converted, they can sin and still be saved. As long as they don't "practice" sin, they are ok.
Moses sinned at the end of his life. If he ever believed he had arrived, he would have been mistaken. It cost him going into the promised land, but worse, it crucified afresh our Lord, and because of Moses' position, it would bring reproach upon the truth he had taught. That is why God laid him to rest, in an effort to remove that reproach. We do not hear men preaching, even Moses sinned. Why not? Because God took his life on account of his one sin. And, that one sin was not premeditated, nor was it "willful". Yet, it revealed a separation between Moses and God.
No, we do not arrive when we are converted. We must maintain our connection continually if we are to be in a converted state. If we take our eyes off of Christ, if we let our minds wander away from Christ, we have no power to resist the smallest temptation. We may not sin openly, but we sin. It may not appear to many, but when we do something apart from Christ, it is from a selfish motive. In Moses' case, it was easy to see he had lost his connection with Christ. The fruits of the Spirit were not in his life. He had reverted back to his natural man with a carnal heart. He was not walking in the Spirit, therefore, he was under condemnation (Romans 8:1). And if we have not His Spirit, we are none of His (Romans 8:9).
One cannot believe Romans 7 is the Christian experience if one believes Romans 8. That would make the two chapters contradict each other. Sister Dorine, what has been so strong in your understanding that you can understand the truth about Romans 7?
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Sister Dorine, what has been so strong in your understanding that you can understand the truth about Romans 7?
It's been a journey. I've always wanted to know the truth about everything not just someones opinion or theory or what sounded, looked or tasted good. Or at least I thought I did.
I don't ever remember anyone preaching about Romans 7 when I was young but comments were made to the effect that it was the experience of the converted. I could relate because that is exactly what was happening to me. My heart wanted to do what was right but my flesh got in the way and I would yield. Then guilt, shame, confession and repentance would follow only to repeat it again and again. I was most "wretched" for sure but I was convinced that this is the way it would be until the end. The main thing was that I was sorry, and repentant. That took care of everything and I was covered with the Righteousness of Christ. (but I was not at peace)
In 1998 I became very ill. The heart specialist diagnosed me with blocked arteries and a damaged heart. I watched the tests he did on a monitor and he explained to me where the problems were. I was so ill that I could not function at all. The pain was always with me. I could not eat or even drink water without pain and exhaustion. I knew I was dying. I could feel my life forces ebbing away.
During this time my highest concern was my relationship with God. All of a sudden my understanding of my walk with God was not bringing me assurance or peace. I had to know where I stood with Him. I could not hold a book to read except a small paperback of Step to Christ. That's all I did for about a week in between Dr. visits and hospital trips. I begged God for assurance of His salvation to me. I agonized with Him and as I read that beautiful little book eating every word; he started talking to me...... "Dorine, I need your heart. Your whole heart. You are holding back things that I need to carry for you. You are afraid of things that you need to give to me. I love you. I gave my life for YOU so that you can have peace as you abide in Me."
Then I read this question in the chapter on repentance. "How shall a man be just with God?" Acts 2: 37, 38....Repent! But Lord I do that every day. The next paragraph hit the nail on the head.....
"Repentance includes sorrow for sin and a turning away from it. We shall not renounce sin unless we (see) it's sinfulness: until we turn away from it in heart, there will be no real change in the life."
"There are many who fail to understand the true nature of repentance. Multitudes sorrow that they have sinned and even make an outward reformation because they fear that their wrongdoing will bring suffering upon themselves. But this is not repentance in the Bible sense. They lament the suffering rather than the sin."
This was the first step in a true relationship with God that grew and grew as I continued reading this little book that I had read so many times before. But now it was like a brand new message to ME alone. I read about the difference between Esau's confession and David's. A light began to shine in my heart and I understood. I could (see) it for the first time. Thank you God I prayed as tears of relief ran down my face. Why have I not understood this before? Now I found myself thanking Him for the illness I was now experiencing because it was this that brought me to the foot of the cross in humble total surrender.
You may be wondering what this has to do with Rom. 7. Well nothing and yet everything. During this illness I was not even thinking about Rom. 7 but when I was confronted with Rom. 7 again it was this experience that started to unravel it for me. (Remnant on Line brought it to completion.)
Each night hubby would hold me and pray out loud until the pain eased and I was able to fall asleep. Then one night I was as low as low could be. I knew that if I didn't get to emergency I would not see the light of a new day.
To make a long story short.....I spent 5 days in ICU while they waited for an appointment in the Columbus Ohio Hospital to do a heart cath. If it had turned out bad they would have taken me into surgery right away.
Well just so you know the rest of the story my tests showed everything was normal. Come to find out I was suffering from severe acid reflux and as soon as the appropriate medication was prescribed I was a new person. It's almost embarrassing to tell but it was far more embarrassing for my cardiologist because he happened to be the top cardiologist in that hospital. Even my daughter who works in a Canadian hospital in cardiology said this Dr. is well known and respected even as far away as Canada.
Wow what a God. It may have been the only way He could get my attention.
Many years later I heard about Remnant on Line and joined. What a blessing it has been to me. Then I came across the topic of Rom. 7. I began to scan everything that was presented. That is when I once again picked up my thirst to know the truth on this topic. I knew that what I had experienced many years ago through my illness and what I had read in SC did not fit the popular teaching on Rom. 7. But it was hard to let go of. I tried every way to make it fit somehow. What ever the outcome I had to know the truth. There was no one thing that convinced me. It was a constant reading of what was said here and the bible and SOP and prayer. I stayed in the background while all of you discussed back and forth. We never know the effect discussions are having on those that are silent on RO.
So how is my illness connected to Rom. 7. Only this......When I gave my heart completely to God and began a new journey with Him I was no longer "wretched" and doing what I hate or doing what I don't want to do. When I do sin guilt leads me back to God and although my heart is full of sorrow for the pain I have caused my Saviour I do not experience that "wretchedness" that Rom. 7 is talking about.
The only time I feel that "wretchedness" is when I have taken my eyes off Jesus and am going my own way.
I'm sorry Richard. I'm sure you didn't mean for such a lengthy answer. I hope it makes sense because much has been left out.
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No need to apologize dear sister. Our testimony is the most important thing we can say. Many will read what you have written and it will start a train of thinking that will lead them to see their continual need of Jesus in order to be able to do any good thing. Until we are reconciled to God, we are captive to the law of sin and death. It is only when we abide in Christ and He in us that we have power to overcome the smallest temptation. Your testimony reveals what many are experiencing today.
There are two verses that come to mind that will be helpful to many who are not experiencing continual victory over sin. As you learned from Steps to Christ, there is a repentance that must be repented of, for it is not brought about by sorrow for what our sins have done to Jesus, but as with Judas, because of our fear of the consequences. These two verses explain it very clearly.
"For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death." 2 Corinthians 7:10. Repentance that does not come from God needs to be repented of.
"Or despisest thou the riches of His goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?" Romans 2:4. Sadly many have not been taught properly it is by beholding the goodness of God (His grace) that we are brought to repentance. This is why it would be good to spend a thoughtful hour a day contemplating the life of Christ (http://remnant-online.com/smf/index.php/topic,17146.0.html). This is why Daniel who had a perfect heart (character) would leave his work, go home, kneel down, and pray to God....even when he was threatened with death for so doing. We are told that by beholding the loveliness of Jesus we will be changed into His image (character), even by His Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:18). We never arrive at a place where we can take our eyes off of Jesus and have power to not sin. But, we can today be converted and tomorrow be reconverted, for Paul explains we need to die to self daily.
What is presented as truth is not nearly as motivating as hearing the testimony of one who has experienced the power of grace to transform the life. Thank you, Sister Dorine. God will use your words to encourage others who are discouraged about their experience.
Now...I am very excited because you can discover what it was that converted the Romans 7 man. As Paul explains his awakening to his condemnation, he tries, tries, and tries to overcome, but fails. He at last sees he is captive to sin and death. He then utters that most pitiful prayer. "O wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from the body of this death." He had no idea because the God of heaven had not given him power to resist his fallen nature. He was completely undone, but like you, dear Dorine, he wanted to quit sinning. He was willing to do anything at this point.
What was it that revealed his sins, and what was it that brought him to a full surrender? I know of no where in inspiration that we are told this in straight lines, but we are indeed told enough to piece it together. Let me share one more statement from the Spirit of Prophecy that will be helpful in putting the pieces together. "A person may not be able to tell the exact time or place, or to trace all the circumstances in the process of conversion; but this does not prove him to be unconverted. By an agency as unseen as the wind, Christ is constantly working upon the heart. Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process." Desire of Ages, pg 172.
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I think I've said this somewhere else on RO but I want to hate sin at every level so much that I would rather die than hurt my Saviour. There is such a fine line between the right and the wrong. Two people can say exactly the same thing but mean two totally different things. That's why the counterfeit is so deceiving. But we have no excuse to not know the truth. It's all about where the heart is. Am I hungering and thirsting after Christ's righteousness? Or is the world holding more attraction for me. I'm not talking about terrible evils. Even things that are not wrong in and of themselves is sin if it has my affections more than Christ does.
For me it could be sewing, gardening, oil painting, reading, etc. etc. all wonderful activities but if they dominate my thinking and crowd out my time with God I'm in trouble. How many times during my life time have I come to the middle of the day and realized that I had not even spent time with God yet. Shamefully too many. I was giving Him the remnants of my time.
I was thinking the other day that if we tithed our time like we do our money we would be spending 3 hours a day in prayer and bible study consistently. Then there is the freewill offerings. I see them as time spent during the day in doing something for others.
When we understand what it means to be fully surrendered to Christ we will not be confused about Rom. 7. Have I arrived? Oh no. In fact the Holy Spirit is showing me daily my weaknesses and tendencies and I don't like what is being revealed to me. I'm so thankful for His promises to give me a new heart and that he will complete the work He has begun in me if I stay connected to Him moment by moment. Each new day He waits to be invited into my heart so that He can work out His will for my life that day.
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Amen, dear sister! We cannot shed our evil flesh. It is with until the Lord comes. But, through the indwelling Savior, we are given power to keep the body under, as Paul says. That evil flesh cannot rise up if we are fully surrendered to Christ Jesus. He then has cleansed our mind and heart. They are pure and holy living in the body of flesh. What a miracle that is.
Sad is the situation with those who have no knowledge of the power of grace to transform the life. When they awaken to their evil nature, they have no power to overcome. After trying and trying to do good, they then are brought to the point of utter exhaustion and cry out "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Many have no idea that Christ has power to turn a sinner into a saint. He longs to reveal the power of His grace in each of our lives.
You, dear sister, see it right. It is a constant battle and march. There is no resting place this side of heaven. Yet, amid the battle, we have love, joy, and peace when we have Jesus in our hearts. Let us press together as we near the end.
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Today at church when I finally had a chance to peruse the church bulletin and noticed that the title of the sermon was "What Are You Thankful For?" and the scripture was Romans 7:21-25 and to be honest I thought "oh this should be interesting" but to my pleasant surprise our associate pastor did not leave us in Romans 7 but took us to Romans 8 also. He went to say that if you find yourself sinning like the the man in Romans 7 even if it's only one sin it's not an effort issue but rather a surrender issue and that you're not totally surrendered. He didn't get into all the details but in today's age when so much is said that would have us to believe that Romans 7 is the experience of true Christians it was a nice and pleasant surprise.
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Yes, Jim, it is a blessing to hear the truth being preached. Here is an inspired statement for those who still believe Romans seven is the converted Christian experience.
By sin we have been severed from the life of God. Our souls are palsied. Of ourselves we are no more capable of living a holy life than was the impotent man capable of walking. There are many who realize their helplessness, and who long for that spiritual life which will bring them into harmony with God; they are vainly striving to obtain it. In despair they cry, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death?" Romans 7:24, margin. Let these desponding, struggling ones look up. The Saviour is bending over the purchase of His blood, saying with inexpressible tenderness and pity, "Wilt thou be made whole?" He bids you arise in health and peace. Do not wait to feel that you are made whole. Believe His word, and it will be fulfilled. Put your will on the side of Christ. Will to serve Him, and in acting upon His word you will receive strength. Whatever may be the evil practice, the master passion which through long indulgence binds both soul and body, Christ is able and longs to deliver. He will impart life to the soul that is "dead in trespasses." Ephesians 2:1. He will set free the captive that is held by weakness and misfortune and the chains of sin. DA 203.
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Here is another quote....
When man is a partaker of the divine nature, the love of Christ will be an abiding principle in the soul, and self and its peculiarities will not be exhibited. But it is sad to see those who should be vessels unto honor indulging in the gratification of the lower nature and walking in paths that conscience condemns. Men professing to be followers of Christ fall to a low level, always mourning over their shortcomings, but never overcoming and bruising Satan under their feet. Guilt and condemnation constantly burden the soul, and the cry of such might well be: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Romans 7:24. Through indulgence in sin, self-respect is destroyed; and when that is gone, respect for others is lessened; we think that others are as unrighteous as we are ourselves. {6T 52.3}
There are those who listen to the truth, and are convinced that they have been living in opposition to Christ. They are condemned, and they repent of their transgressions. Relying upon the merits of Christ, exercising true faith in Him, they receive pardon for sin. As they cease to do evil and learn to do well, they grow in grace and in the knowledge of God. They see that they must sacrifice in order to separate from the world; and, after counting the cost, they look upon all as loss if they may but win Christ. They have enlisted in Christ's army. The warfare is before them, and they enter it bravely and cheerfully, fighting against their natural inclinations and selfish desires, bringing the will into subjection to the will of Christ. Daily they seek the Lord for grace to obey Him, and they are strengthened and helped. This is true conversion. In humble, grateful dependence he who has been given a new heart relies upon the help of Christ. He reveals in his life the fruit of righteousness. He once loved himself. Worldly pleasure was his delight. Now his idol is dethroned, and God reigns supreme. The sins he once loved he now hates. Firmly and resolutely he follows in the path of holiness.--The Youth's Instructor, September 26, 1901. (If this is the true experience of a Christian then they would not be crying out...O wretched man that I am)
It's interesting to note that when SOP speaks of the person burdened with guilt and condemnation a "wretched man" is portrayed but a surrendered (converted) person's experience is portrayed as a warfare they enter bravely and cheerfully.