Author Topic: Why Did Jesus Suffer?  (Read 10856 times)

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Richard Myers

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« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2003, 03:36:00 PM »
Brother Randy, let me comment on this statement of yours. "I notice that Jesus asked for forgiveness for those who were murdering him on the cross, even though they did not ask him to. I suspect that is the Father's attitude towards forgiveness as well."

Here are the words of Jesus that I think you are speaking of, Brother Randy. If not, please correct me.  :)  "Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots." Luke 23:34.

This prayer does not confer forgiveness. It was the desire of Christ that His Father would forgive them IF they would be converted. There is no forgiveness without repentance. The Father's character is as His Son, full of hope for sinful man. There is no desire for the death and suffering of the guilty, only longing for life. "Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" Ezekiel 33:11.

God will punish the wicked. In this world and after the second resurrection. Examples of God's punishment can be seen in the Flood, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorah, and the death of the first born in Egypt. The last plagues will result in punishment upon the wicked and then after the second resurrection, the wicked will suffer for each sin. It is justice and it was not set aside by grace. Truth and mercy met at the cross in the sufferings and death of Christ. God maintained justice and was also seen to be merciful. What a God!! Sacrificing Himself while we were yet sinners!!  

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Liane H

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« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2003, 04:39:00 PM »
Hi Brother Richard:

I was not speaking of that kind of suffering, I was talking about the suffering of the last days. The persecution period of past, some present and future.

The Bible states:

Romans:

8:17   And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.  

Phillippians:  

1:29   For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake.

2 Thessalonians:

1:4   So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:  
1:5   Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:  
1:6   Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;  
1:7   And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,  
1:8   In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:  
1:9   Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;  
1:10   When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe because our testimony among you was believed in that day.  

2 Timothy:

3:12   Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.  
 
1 Peter:

2:20   For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.  
2:21   For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps.

4:19   Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Revelation:

2:10   Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.  

It was necessary for Him to be our Example in all things, including suffering.

Liane  

   
   

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Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Randy S

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« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2003, 05:24:00 PM »
Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots." Luke 23:34.

This prayer does not confer forgiveness.

That is the text that I was speaking of, Richard.  I would ask that we consider this carefully.  Was Jesus the express image of the Father's character or not?  If he was, then his attitude toward these men was the same as the Fathers.  Would the Father grant Jesus' request for forgiveness or not?  I believe that he would.  There is nothing in that text that would imply that forgiveness was not granted.

Again, I think the real problem is that we have come to equate forgiveness with salvation.  That is simply not the case.  A sinner can be forgiven and still not be saved.  This is the crux of my point.  If a thief is forgiven but is unchanged he is still a thief.  If these men who tried to murder Jesus were never converted, they will die the second death.  The issue was not that God was unforgiving towards them.  It is that sin results in death.

We need to adopt Ellen White's definition of forgiveness if we are going to use that word today to equate with salvation.  I gave her definition in a different thread, but it may serve well to have it here also:

quote:

But forgiveness has a broader meaning than many suppose. When God gives the promise that He "will abundantly pardon," He adds, as if the meaning of that promise exceeded all that we could comprehend: "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:7-9. God's forgiveness is not merely a judicial act by which He sets us free from condemnation. It is not only forgiveness for sin, but reclaiming from sin. It is the outflow of redeeming love that transforms the heart. David had the true conception of forgiveness when he prayed, "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me." Psalm 51:10. And again he says, "As far as the east is from the west, so far hath He removed our transgressions from us." Psalm 103:12. {MB 114.1}

I want to highlight her words: "God's forgiveness is not merely a judicial act by which He sets us free from condemnation. It is not only forgiveness for sin, but reclaiming from sin. It is the outflow of redeeming love that transforms the heart."

Unfortunately, we have equated salvation with a "judicial act" which pardons our penalty.  That is not true.  Salvation is that PLUS the transformation, or change, of character.  It is not because God would not forgive those murderers of Chrsit.  He did, just as Jesus asked.  It is that those men assumingly did not subsequently allow God to change them.  That's the key.

The only condition that the Bible attaches to God's forgiveness is that we also forgive others.  In other words, we must allow God to change us to be like him: freely forgiving.  That in no way changes the awful truth, which God first told Adam in Genesis 2:16: sinners will die.

On that last note, several have mentioned that God will destroy in the end, seemingly directed at me.  I'm not sure what I said that implied that I might not believe that fact, since you will not find it in any of my posts.  Anyone who has ever heard me teach a class on the subject knows that I believe that God will destroy the wicked in the end (second death), and has put many people to sleep (first death) in the past.  In fact, my understanding of God's character and his dealing with sin requires that this be true.

I do believe in Mrs. White's characterization of God's attitude towards the destruction of the wicked:

quote:
We are not to regard God as waiting to punish the sinner for his sin. The sinner brings punishment upon himself. His own actions start a train of circumstances that bring the sure result. Every act of transgression reacts upon the sinner, works in him a change of character, and makes it more easy for him to transgress again. By choosing to sin, men separate themselves from God, cut themselves off from the channel of blessing, and the sure result is ruin and death.  {FLB 84.7}

There are those who seemingly believe that God will not destroy sinners in the end.  I am not one of them.  However, I believe that destruction is one of natural consequence rather than imposed punishment.  In other words, I believe that when God told Adam that sin would kill him, I believe that God meant that rebellion would result in death, not that God would impose the death penalty as punishment if Adam didn't do what God said.  The end result is the same.  But what each says about God is not.

I believe that what God demonstrated on the cross was that what He had said about sin resulting in death was true, even if it had appeared at the time that it was not, since God had interposed and not allowed man to die the second death "in the day that he ate".  This is EXACTLY what it says in Romans 3:25, when it talks about why Jesus had to suffer death on the cross, which is the topic of this thread.  

The truthfulness and trustworthiness of God lies at the center of the great controversy.  Answering these accusations saved the universe.  I point to the statements of Mrs. White about how what happened at the cross secured even the unfallen worlds from falling.  And God answered the question of doubt which formed in Lucifer's mind at the very beginning, whether it was true that sin would result in death, or whether it could be that God was simply withholding freedom from his created beings, and you could live however one wished and still live.  God showed on the cross that even the sinless Son, if treated as a sinner and seperated from the Source of Life, would die.

Aside from points on which we apparently do not agree, can't we agree on my primary point, which is that forgiveness, as defined by most people today as legal pardon alone, does not equate to salvation?  That in itself would be significant, as a proper understanding of what salvation entails, including both legal pardon AND transformation of character by the power of God, would cure the prevailing understanding of most Christians which results in an impotent gospel, one that has no practical effect on the sinner.


Richard Myers

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« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2003, 07:55:00 PM »
Brother Randy, I think we are in closer alignment than it may appear, but there is a difference. I think it important that we continue along the line you have established even though it may seem to some to move away from the topic.

You make a distinction between forgiveness and salvation. I don't see this anywhere in the Bible or in your quotes. Listen to the words of Jesus when speaking with His disciples after His resurrection. "Then opened He their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." Luke 24:45-47.

Repentance and salvation are linked. What is forgiveness? Forgiveness is pardon. If we do not repent of our sins, we shall not be pardoned, or forgiven our sins. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9. There is no forgiveness of sin, if there is no confession and forsaking of sin. But, if we will come to Jesus just as we are and confess our sins, asking to be forgiven, He will freely forgive and pardon even the greatest of sins.

It is important to understand who God is and what is His character. He is willing to forgive, but there are conditions to receiving this forgiveness. Is it not the same with us? The killer murders your only son. Do you forgive him as he is continuing to kill? No. But, can we tell him that you are willing to forgive him IF he will see his wrong and turn from it.

Our God is willing to forgive us If we will come to Jesus just as we are. We don't need to do anything, except come just as we are confessing our sins and asking for cleansing.  When He forgives us it brings not only cleansing, but the power of grace to live a new life. This forgiveness transforms our very nature. We are new creatures in Christ Jesus!

Brother Randy, I am not sure what is to be gained by forgiving the murderer while he still murders. Is it not enough that God is willing to forgive all who have put His Son to open shame? All who have caused such great pain to their fellow men? This is God's great desire, that we all would come to repentance and allow Him to forgive our sins and become partakers of His divine nature.

If a debt is forgiven, it need never be mentioned again. If sins are forgiven, they need never be mentioned again. The sinner who does not forsake his sins will not have his sins forgiven and he will meet them again on judgment day.

The all important question is, will we allow Christ's prayer to be answered by our heavenly Father? He certainly wants to forgive us our sins that they may be blotted out.

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Randy S

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« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2003, 05:45:00 AM »
Thanks Richard.  I love your examples, they are terrific.  I suspect what you said is true, that we are actually very much in agreement.

In your first example from Luke, you point out that forgiveness and repentance are linked.  That's my point as well, that forgivness alone does not equate to salvation, though I would add a third compenent of salvation in addition to forgiveness and repentance, and that is transformation of heart.  I believe that all through the Bible you will see those three components together regarded as salvation.

You are absolutely correct, it does no one any good to be forgiven if they do not repent.  Nor does it do any good to be forgiven and to repent if there is no change.  This is the power of God unto salvation, to transform the sinner and remove the rebelliousness from his character so that he can stand before God.

Your second example is directly on point.  In the parable of the man who was forgiven a great debt by the King, the debt was forgiven.  The man who had owed the debt did not repent, neither was his character changed.  He went out and found a man who owed him a small sum.  He choked the man and threatened to imprison him if he did not pay up.  When the King learned of this he REINSTATED the debt and threw the man into jail.  This was because it is necessary, as Jesus said, for the sinner to be transformed to be forgiving, like God is, or else God cannot forgive us.  This is EXACTLY my point.

It's not that God cannot forgive.  It is that forgiveness alone does not save us without repentence and change of heart.  You said that nothing in my quoted materials says that but I ask again that we consider Ellen White's definition of forgiveness, which includes repentence and transformation.  I suggest that what people take "forgiveness" to mean today is merely "legal pardon", which she specifically states does not equate to salvation:

quote:
God's forgiveness is not merely a judicial act by which He sets us free from condemnation. It is not only forgiveness for sin but reclaiming from sin. It is the outflow of redeeming love that transforms the heart. David had the true conception of forgiveness when he prayed, "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me." Ps. 51:10.  {FLB 129.2}

I do not wish to move the discussion away from the topic of the thread.  Personally, I think this idea of what constitutes forgiveness, and whether Jesus' death was necessary in order for God to forgive, or whether it is more correct to say that Jesus' death was necessary for salvation, which is what I believe, is key to answering the original question, which is "Why did Jesus suffer?"  Of course, I am reading the question as "Why did Jesus HAVE TO suffer?"  Perhaps that was not the original intent.

Again, my main concern is that true salvation has become confused and equated to mere legal pardon alone.  As a result there are millions of Christians alive today who are no different from anyone else, with hearts untransformed from what they were before, thinking they are safe and converted when they are not.  This idea is based on their belief that legal pardon is all that is required in order to be saved, and that Jesus obtained that pardon for them on the cross: Jesus paid it all, and that's all there is to it.  I think as Seventh-day Adventists, we have a responsibility to help correct that misunderstanding before it is too late.

In Ellen White's statement above she most clearly presents that true "forgiveness", what I call salvation, is both forgiveness FOR sin and reclaiming FROM sin.  She states specifically that it is not merely judicial pardon.  Then she points to David's "correct" understanding of forgiveness in his request to God to create in him a clean heart.  That's tranfromation.

If we all could adopt Mrs. White's definition of forgiveness as including transformation, which by necessity includes repentance, then I too could say that forgiveness and salvation equate.  But since virtually every english speaker alive equates the word "forgiveness" with legal pardon alone, we cannot continue to use the word forgivness and expect the truth to be understood, which was my point in the first place.


Richard Myers

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« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2003, 06:54:00 AM »
I am not sure how this works in with the topic, but I do want to clear up your concern , Brother Randy regarding forgiveness. I agree with what I understand you to be saying regarding the "more" involved in forgiveness.

I am not familiar with the idea that most restrict forgivness to a legal pardon. I guess it could be. I see conversion including forgiveness, cleansing, and sanctification or power to obey.

Since we seem to agree on this, can we then say that there is no forgiveness without repentance?

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Sister Marie

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« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2003, 03:23:00 PM »
 "Now I rejoice," he continued, "not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance : for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of." That repentance which is produced by the influence of divine grace upon the heart will lead to confession and forsaking of sin. Such were the fruits which ...  
...hope and joy and heaven. {AA 333.
With Christian Love,
Marie

Randy S

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« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2003, 06:38:00 AM »
Since we seem to agree on this, can we then say that there is no forgiveness without repentance?

I would say that there is no salvation without repentance.  I think we know this is true even though we cling to using "forgiveness" instead of salvation.  Take the example of Adam and Eve at the Fall.  God said that in the day that Adam ate he would die.  Therefore, it was just that Adam die.  Yet, the very fact that God came to this earth and spoke to Adam instead of killing him was an act of forgiveness.  God forgave Adam before Adam ever repented.  You can see that in the conversation between God and Adam.  Adam would not take responsibility for his sin and tried to push that responsibility onto others.  That's not repentance.  It was later that Adam repented.  

God forgives first.  Then man sees the goodness of God and repents.  That's the reason the Bible says that man is drawn to repentance by seeing the goodness of God.  That's why Jesus told Nicodemus that, when He was lifted up, He would draw all unto Him.

This is a very, very important point.  The Bible teaches that God loved us, even while we were yet sinners.  Jesus told us to love our enemies.  We focus on the "love" aspect of those two commands but there is an inherent "forgive" aspect as well.  Christ told Peter to forgive seventy times seven times.  He was to forgive whether the other person repented or not.  Nowehere in the Bible is forgiveness tied to repentance.  It is ABSOLUTELY tied to salvation.  And that's what's important.  A sinner cannot be saved unless he is both forgiven by God and repents of what he has done.  This is because of the centrality of the third component of salvation, which cannot happen without forgiveness and repentance, the transformation of the character (change of heart) through God's power.  THAT is conversion, forgiveness is not conversion.  Jesus sais specifically that you cannot be saved without being born again.

I am not familiar with the idea that most restrict forgivness to a legal pardon.

This is the second time recently on this forum that my opinion as to what the majority of Christians believe has been at odds with the experience of someone elses.  I do not feel that my perception of reality exceeds that of anyone else on this board.  In fact, I can tell by reading this forum that I am essentially out of my league in terms of spiritual development.

I do wonder, though, what leads to such different perceptions about the consensus of thinking among those in our harvest field.  One possibility is that I am just plain wrong.  Another possibility is that we may tend to move in different circles.

Unfortunately, I am limited, based on where I live and work, so I don't have much opportunity to discuss things with Seventh-day Adventists.  That's one reason I love online forums like this one.  I live in Sodom (Las Vegas), and I attend a church of 50 members.  My conversations on religous matters is almost exclusively with people with little or no direct Bible knowledge.  9 times out of 10, when the subject of how salvation works comes up, the understanding of those with whom I speak is strictly a forensic, judicial, "legal pardon" only explanation.  Since I am limited to my own experience then this is the basis of my perception.

I offer this only as an explanation that I have apparently been wasting precious bandwidth by preaching to the choir.  I still maintain, however, that our understanding of the need to let God change our characters, in addition to accepting his forgiveness for sins and repenting that we chose to rebel, is a message that has not penetrated meaningfully into the non-SDA world.  I think this is life-or-death information and is why so many people hear "peace, peace" when, in fact, destruction is around the corner.  

[This message has been edited by Randy S (edited 11-17-2003).]


JimB

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« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2003, 10:06:00 AM »
Brother Randy, even though I haven't said much in this disucussion I have been following it. You seem to have a very good understanding of the Bible and what it teaches. From time to time there are going to be disagreements. Please don't let this worry you. As long as we keep Jesus before us the truth will come out. I know have a long ways to travel yet on the road that the Lord has set before me and I'm sure that most of the moderators here feel the same. We are seeking truth just like you. I know for myself that if I can be shown from the Bible where my thoughts/idea/beliefs/convictions are in error I am more than happy to change.

What prompted me to say all of this was the comment you made... "In fact, I can tell by reading this forum that I am essentially out of my league in terms of spiritual development."  Everyone here is growing and the christian experience is all about helping each other with physical, emotional and spiritual needs. Please don't feel inferior. Let's just work together and see what Jesus reveals to us   :)

[This message has been edited by JimB (edited 11-17-2003).]

By communion with God in nature, the mind is uplifted, and the heart finds rest.  {DA 291.1}

Richard Myers

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« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2003, 07:40:00 AM »
Amen, Brother Jim. My feelings exactly.  :)

Brother Randy, we appreciate your fellowship and your remarks. I think you understand correctly the more important issue we have been discussing here. The thought that none are in a "saved" condition until they are brought to repentance and that this only happens by allowing God's grace ( the goodness of God) into the heart, this is the all important teaching. It is the doctrine that has especially been controverted.

The discussion we are having is good for all of us. We are all erring humans and we need to be continually studying and praying for wisdom that the error in our minds will be rooted out. Many come into the church full of error from other churches. It takes time to root it out. Only as we abide in Christ can this happen. You are truly blessed to correctly understand the grace of God as it applies to our salvation.

If I may, I think I see what you are saying regarding forgiveness. You have made a few statements that appear to be good, but I think are misplaced. Let me see if I can explain. The all important doctrine we want to grasp is that the plan of salvation offers to all who will give their hearts to Christ, eternal life. All are given a "second chance" to move into a saving relationship with God.
This offer is conditioned upon a changed life. If we will not accept the character of Christ, we cannot be saved.

How do we accept the character of Christ which makes us unselfish? We come to Christ just as we are. We feed upon Christ, His Word, and by beholding Him we are changed into His image. It is the "goodness of God" that leadeth us to salvation through repentance.

You say "God forgives first. Then man sees the goodness of God and repents." I like this, but I don't agree. But, you have gotten the important part right. It is seeing the "goodness of God" that converts the heart. What is the goodness of God? It is not that God forgives the impenitent, but rather that God while we are yet impenitent would send His Son to die for us, for me.

Many will not accept this great gift and God will not forgive them their sins. The offer has been made, it is up to the sinner to accept it. It is very sad to realize that Christ suffered and died for many who will not accept the offered gift. But, it makes no difference, the price for their salvation has been paid at great expense.

Here we see the "goodness of God". It is that God the Father, loves the world so much that He allowed Jesus to suffer and die for the impenitent. He died for us with no assurance that we would even accept the suffering on our behalf so that God could forgive us.

The "goodness of God" is clearly seen even if none accepted the offer. The angels marveled at this great love. They were placed forever beyond Satan's reach when Christ died. Not because they were forgiven, but because of the great demonstraion of God's love for the sinner while yet in his sin. This is the "goodness of God", not the actual forgiveness when it is granted.

When forgivenss is granted to the sinner, it will truly be a forgiveness of sin that enables God to look at a man as though he never sinned. This is forgiveness. Such a thought!

Brother Randy, I appreciate your thoughts on this. As we discuss this topic, looking unto Christ, we shall grow in our understanding of our God. In doing this, we will become more like Him. This is His great desire. This brings honor and glory to our God.

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Richard Myers

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« Reply #30 on: November 18, 2003, 07:49:00 AM »
Brother Randy, one other thought. There are many reading what is posted here, even those not in the church, or maybe any church. This is an open forum that can be read by anyone in the world. We get over a million hits a year at this site. So, it is not just the "choir" that are reading your good thoughts.  :)  May the good seed being planted take root.  :)
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Randy S

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« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2003, 08:29:00 AM »
Thanks, Brother Jim and Brother Richard for the kind words.  You floks really know how to make someone feel welcome.  One million hits per year!  What a tremendous work God is doing through this Forum!

I have really appreciated this opportunity to discuss this here with you all.  I have few opportunities to speak with fellow Adventists at this level.  I cannot disagree with anything in Richard's last post.  I will leave this discussion with one final thought.

In my few years listening to sermons I often hear that repentence is the first step towards salvation, and that step must be made by the sinner.  In my studies I have come to believe that this is not the case.

quote:
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. Act 5:31.

Here it can be seen that repentance does not come from man, it is the gift of God.  EGW says this much better than I ever could:

quote:
Repentance is no less the gift of God than are pardon and justification, and it cannot be experienced except as it is given to the soul by Christ. If we are drawn to Christ, it is through His power and virtue. The grace of contrition comes through Him, and from Him comes justification.  {FLB 110.3}

It is true that repentance comes before forgiveness, if one defines forgiveness as EGW, and apparently those of us on this forum do, as inclusive of the change of heart of conversion and not merely judicial pardon.  When speaking to those with whom I come into contact, they do not have this understanding of forgiveness, and so I describe this true first step, the wooing of man unto repentance, as a forgiving and merciful act of God.

In terms of why Jesus had to die on the cross, I believe that it accomplished what Jesus told Nicodemnus that it would: drawing all unto him.  There they would see the goodness of God, which the Bible says leads men to repentance.  There they are forgiven.  There they can behold and, by beholding, they are changed.  That is salvation.  That's what God accomplished by the cross, and that's why Jesus had to suffer.


Richard Myers

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« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2003, 10:02:00 AM »
Yes, Brother Randy, Jesus makes the first move. Before the foundation of the earth was laid, Jesus had consented to become our Sacrifice. He would die and suffer in our place. Many times in the Garden of Gethsemane He must have been tormented by the thought that so few would appreciate His suffering AND that even His own disciples did not understand that He would have to die for them.

Even after the cross, Jesus does not stand by waiting. He actively draws the sinner to Him. He sends the Holy Spirit into the world to convince of sin, righteousness, and judgment. He pours out blessing after blessing upon the sinner. He keeps each beat of the heart beating. He waters the grapes to be made even into alcohol. He protects the innocent from mass murder.

Jesus came into the world and found me, a sinner. He woos over a protracted period of time. Conversion is the end process of this work. He sends the righteous to warn the wicked of impending judgment. Others He sends to be a channel of love ministering to the physical needs of the sinner.

It is the resistance to this love that keeps the sinner from Christ. When man is converted it is because he ceases to resist this great love. Even the "chief of sinners", the Apostle Paul prior to his conversion got to the point where he could not resist the pricks upon his conscience. His heart was ready to see that Christ was God.

You are right on, Brother Randy when it comes to this beautiful truth that we love God because He first loved us AND revealed it! "...knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?" Romans 2:4. And "For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of..." 2 Cor. 7:10. This sorrow is created when we see what our sins did to Christ, not what our sins have done to ourselves.

If there was one overriding reason why we need to see that Jesus suffered for each of our sins, it is because of that truth. Until we see that Jesus suffered for each of my sins, I shall not realize the degree to which He loves us. "He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with His stripes we are healed." Isaiah 53:5.

[This message has been edited by Richard Myers (edited 11-30-2003).]

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

M.A. Crawford

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Why Did Jesus Suffer?
« Reply #33 on: November 18, 2003, 12:22:00 PM »
"For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps. 2 Peter 2:21.

"21. Called. The clause reads literally, 'for unto this ye were called,' that is, the Christian has been 'called' to do good and to suffer in the doing of it, if need be. A slave--or any church member, for that matter--who cheerfully complied with the requirements made of him might, at times, be abused, but he was to suffer this abuse uncomplainingly.

"Christ also suffered. That is, particularily during His trial and crucifixion (see v. 23). He suffered unfairly because He had never committed an act deserving of punishment (see v. 22). The measure of His nobility of character was the intensity of harassment that beset Him from childhood (see on Heb. 2:10, 18; 4:15). In the face of mounting injustice Christ exhibited a perfect pattern of suffering for righteouness' sake (cf. on Matt. 5:10-12). He met evil taunts and insinuations without retaliation. He confrounted the meanness of men with a magnanimous love. He suffered patiently, confident that God would make all things work together for good (see on Rom. 8:28; 1 Peter 2:19).

"For us. Or, 'on our behalf.' God purposed that the noble suffering of the Saviour should be an example for every son and daughter of God to follow. Christ's perfect life, forged in the crucible of suffering and death, was God's solution to the whole problem of sin. Here, however, Peter is not primarily discussing the atonement but the noble example of patience and fortitude Christ provided in relation to His sufferings.

"Example. Gr. HUPOGRAMMOS, literally, 'under-writing,' that is, a perfect pattern of writing from which a perfect copy may be made. Christ has provided the master pattern for patient suffering, which the Christian must faithfully copy as a student traces words on a clean sheet of paper from the perfect pattern placed before him." (7BC 566).

M.A.

M.A.