Author Topic: Investigative Judgment (Read 133641 times)

RickH · « **Reply #200 on:** February 19, 2012, 10:52:59 AM »

Yes, that is exactly my thoughts on Enoch, Moses and Elijah, are they confirmed already. Can Christ bring to the IJ a special case, I would like to hear everyones input as it does raise some interesting questions....

Mimi · « **Reply #201 on:** February 19, 2012, 10:59:43 AM »

Apparently He did. They are in heaven. Consider the multitude also raised at the resurrection who now reside in heaven. If they were not fit for heaven, they would not be there. I believe these are called the first fruits.

But those who came forth from the grave at Christ's resurrection were raised to everlasting life. They ascended with Him as trophies of His victory over death and the grave. These, said Christ, are no longer the captives of Satan; I have redeemed them. I have brought them from the grave as the first fruits of My power, to be with Me where I am, nevermore to see death or experience sorrow. {DA 786.2}

Do you expect He would undo what He already decided?

Guess I am not getting your point on this question unless you wish to argue the validity of the IJ.

RickH · « **Reply #202 on:** February 19, 2012, 12:32:21 PM »

Quote from: Sybil on February 19, 2012, 10:59:43 AM

Apparently He did. They are in heaven. Consider the multitude also raised at the resurrection who now reside in heaven. If they were not fit for heaven, they would not be there. I believe these are called the first fruits.

But those who came forth from the grave at Christ's resurrection were raised to everlasting life. They ascended with Him as trophies of His victory over death and the grave. These, said Christ, are no longer the captives of Satan; I have redeemed them. I have brought them from the grave as the first fruits of My power, to be with Me where I am, nevermore to see death or experience sorrow. {DA 786.2}

Do you expect He would undo what He already decided?

Guess I am not getting your point on this question unless you wish to argue the validity of the IJ.

Well the thief has been given, ahead of the IJ, assurance of salvation. My question was did he somehow bypass the IJ or do we have someone who has a explanation, I have one but I want others input so we can compare and all be blessed........

Won Bae · « **Reply #203 on:** February 19, 2012, 01:01:06 PM »

Rick H,

Do you know the purpose of the Investigative Judgement? It realy means "investigation", the purpose is not to decide if a person is fit to be saved. There is a good book about this. The is called "The Case for the Investigative Judgment" by Marvin Moore who is the editor of the Signs of the Times. I highly recommend this book to any one who is interested clarifying the purpose of the Investigative Judgment.

Won

Mimi · « **Reply #204 on:** February 19, 2012, 01:08:29 PM »

What is your explanation, Rick? I'd like to hear it.

Vicki · « **Reply #205 on:** February 19, 2012, 01:17:38 PM »

The perishing sinner may say: “I am a lost sinner; but Christ came to seek and to save that which was lost. He says, ‘I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance’ (Mark 2:17). I am a sinner, and he died upon Calvary’s cross to save me. I need not remain a moment longer unsaved. He died and rose again for my justification, and he will save me now. I accept the forgiveness he has promised.”—“Justified by Faith” (a pamphlet published in 1893), p. 7. Reprinted in Selected Messages 1:392.

The thief on the cross was a repentant sinner who was blessed to be able to hear Jesus tell him he would be in Christ's kingdom. We are all saved the same way; we "need not remain a moment longer unsaved."

If we are saved then we have no need to fear the outcome of the IJ. I see no reason to think the thief won't go through the actual IJ just like the rest of us. The thief is awaiting resurrection morning. He had his faith secure in Christ's righteousness. When his name comes up in the IJ who can refute Jesus that the man is worthy of eternal life? Jesus is able to bare the man's heart to all who are concerned about him in the IJ.

I've been a little confused about what your actual questions have been. I hope my answer is to the point.

Vicki · « **Reply #206 on:** February 19, 2012, 01:18:08 PM »

I second Sybil's last post.

Richard Myers · « **Reply #207 on:** February 21, 2012, 10:40:57 PM »

Every person who has professed to serve God will be judged in the IJ. As cp said, God already knows the end of each case. The dead will not know the results until they come forth from the grave. The living who are translated have the assurance of salvation, but they know not that probation has closed. It is not a matter of the thief knowing he would be in heaven. That has nothing to do with the IJ. The IJ proves that God's judgment is just. The books are opened and the deeds of all who have professed faith will be compared to the law of God. Thus, all who will be in heaven will be seen to be worthy to be there. This flies in the face of what most believe. It is very sad that such an important doctrine has been so successfully perverted in the minds of so many.

Rick, we have a number of threads that already deal with the IJ. Unless there is something important that you are trying to bring out, these messages will be merged with an existing thread where the IJ is discussed.

Glen · « **Reply #208 on:** February 22, 2012, 04:25:49 AM »

Quote from: Richard Myers on February 21, 2012, 10:40:57 PM

...these messages will be merged with an existing thread where the IJ is discussed.

I did a search but couldn't find the "existing thread where the IJ is discussed, other than this one." -Could you send me a link, or direction where I may find it? Thanks

Mimi · « **Reply #209 on:** February 22, 2012, 05:45:12 AM »

Hi, Glen. That topic is in the Bread of Life board. I am merging them.

RickH · « **Reply #210 on:** February 22, 2012, 06:27:59 AM »

Quote from: Richard Myers on February 21, 2012, 10:40:57 PM

Every person who has professed to serve God will be judged in the IJ. As cp said, God already knows the end of each case. The dead will not know the results until they come forth from the grave. The living who are translated have the assurance of salvation, but they know not that probation has closed. It is not a matter of the thief knowing he would be in heaven. That has nothing to do with the IJ. The IJ proves that God's judgment is just. The books are opened and the deeds of all who have professed faith will be compared to the law of God. Thus, all who will be in heaven will be seen to be worthy to be there. This flies in the face of what most believe. It is very sad that such an important doctrine has been so successfully perverted in the minds of so many.

Rick, we have a number of threads that already deal with the IJ. Unless there is something important that you are trying to bring out, these messages will be merged with an existing thread where the IJ is discussed.

That is fine, and the explanation you gave is right on point. Jesus is the great I AM, the almighty Jehovah, the First and Last, and so He knew the end from the begining when He gave the assurance to the thief. But also it was given to us by Christ I feel, as a example of what happens when we in faith accept Christ's righteousness, we too can have everlasting life as promised to the thief. Here is a great explanation that I liked...

"Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 10:32

The thief on the cross did this.

"And straightway he preached Christ...that he is the Son of God." Acts 9:20 (speaking of Paul, right after he had his sight restored)

The thief on the cross did this.

"But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved" Acts 15:11

The thief on the cross did this (believed in Jesus).

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" Ephesians 2:8

The thief did this (he acted on his faith & accepted the gift).

The IJ will show that the thief on the cross had fruit. '

Richard Myers · « **Reply #211 on:** February 22, 2012, 06:47:23 AM »

Amen! But, now we must go a bit further as we have done in this topic in previous posts. How is it that the IJ will show the thief had fruit? It seems that you understand, but so many have been deceived in regards to the truth that we need to spell it out. What happens in the IJ that proves to the universe that the thief was in fact a true believer?

Glen · « **Reply #212 on:** February 22, 2012, 06:53:39 AM »

I'm trying to put into words something I've wondered about for some time; please excuse my feeble attempt, here. I'm still working on this. I haven't heard this from anyone else. I want to know your opinion whether I'm “clear off base” in my thinking.

I appreciate the insights EGW gives in describing the Investigative Judgement, and in no way desire to belittle what she has shared. I understand that she describes seeing the Temple in Heaven as a physical building. I am appalled whenever I hear someone claiming that there is no Heavenly Sanctuary.

I think of the Tabernacle in the wilderness wanderings of the Israelites, as well as Solomon's Temple, as “sandbox” examples of the Heavenly; simple physical illustrations of Spiritual Truth as it is in God, manifested to humanity through Jesus in His ministry upon the earth, as the Lamb, and in Heaven.

Any "work" that man does, with our without divine power, is "weighed in the balances" Daniel 5:27, measured by God's Standard of Love, Truth as it is in His sight; His own character.

I've wondered for some time about the following Bible Text, and think that perhaps in the “Big Picture”, God is in Christ, and Christ is in God, reconciling penitent humanity. I see the Heavenly Pattern of the earthly Sanctuary fulfilled in Them, and through the doctrine of Christ, in Believers as they “work out (their) own salvation with fear and trembling. Phillipians 2:12

I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. Revelation 21:22

While I understand that the above Bible verse is in the context of the New Jerusalem as it stands on the New Earth, AFTER sin has been eradicated forever, I'm wondering whether, perhaps, God the Son and God the Father are even now the Temple in Heaven; Holy Place and Most Holy Place, respectively. Christ's “entering” the Most Holy Place in His ministry for the penitent, perhaps described in the following: that we walk in Christ, in God the Father by faith, as the Substance, before we are physically resurrected from the dead, or are translated at His Second Coming:

Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: Colossians 1:13

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: Ephesians 2:6

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Revelation 3:21

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. John 15:10

...He that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please Him. John 8:29

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matthew 5:48

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. John 17:20-23

For it became Him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of One: for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brethren, Hebrews 2:10, 11

...He will raise them up as a part of Himself. Manuscript Releases Volume Twenty-one 347.04

Richard Myers · « **Reply #213 on:** February 22, 2012, 10:43:37 AM »

The Bible doctrine that states we may become partakers of His divine nature is important. How does this happen? It happens when we die to self and allow Christ to come in. What does this mean? Jesus said, "abide in me and I in you." We are to be reconciled to God. If we have Christ, we have life. If we do not have Christ, we do not have life. Those who go into the grave with Christ in them, the hope of glory, "He will raise them up as a part of Himself." When we give up resisting His love, His drawing, He comes to abide in us. How? Through the agency of the Holy Spirit, the third person of the godhead. If we have His Spirit abiding in us, we have life because we have Him, His Spirit. "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Romans 8:9.

When we are reconciled to God it is through the Holy Spirit. This is how Christ is in us. Jesus and our heavenly Father are one in Spirit and one in purpose. They are united. But, they are distinct personalities. They both moved into the Most Holy Place in 1844, a physical temple in heaven that the earthly temples were pattered after. Today, in heaven is a physical temple in which the investigative judgment is taking place. Glen, I cannot explain the verse that states "I saw no temple therein:" I have wondered about it.

"Mount Zion was just before us, and on the mount was a glorious temple, and about it were seven other mountains, on which grew roses and lilies. And I saw the little ones climb, or, if they chose, use their little wings and fly to the top of the mountains, and pluck the never-fading flowers. There were all kinds of trees around the temple to beautify the place; the box, the pine, the fir, the oil, the myrtle, the pomegranate, and the fig-tree bowed down with the weight of its timely figs,--these made the place all over glorious. And as we were about to enter the holy temple, Jesus raised His lovely voice and said, "Only the 144,000 enter this place," and we shouted, "Alleluia." CET 63.

Mimi · « **Reply #214 on:** February 22, 2012, 11:24:05 AM »

I have contemplated "no temple" as well; however, Inspiration says this:

NO TEMPLE, BUT FACE-TO-FACE COMMUNION.—“I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.” Revelation 21:22. The people of God are privileged to hold open communion with the Father and the Son. “Now we see through a glass, darkly.” 1 Corinthians 13:12. We behold the image of God reflected, as in a mirror, in the works of nature and in His dealings with men; but then we shall see Him face to face, without a dimming veil between. We shall stand in His presence and behold the glory of His countenance.—GC 676, 677.

As for the heavenly sanctuary and it not being in sight, (that is if the temple and the sanctuary are considered the same), in heaven--after sin and death are no more--what is the need of the physical sanctuary, the two apartments, the furniture, laver and altar? the Investigative Judgment is ended, the redeemed are with the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit. Was it not seen because it is no longer housing the symbols of the pathway to righteousness represented by Christ Jesus? I need to study this much further. These are questions I have not before thoroughly probed.

And could "the holy temple" at the end of Richard's post, represent the throne of God?

billy · « **Reply #215 on:** March 31, 2012, 06:35:19 AM »

Hi, when was the last time you heard a Sabbath sermon on the IJ? I don't think I have ever heard one. Maybe it does get preached and I have been away that Sabbath when it happened. But I doubt it. Do not think for one moment I have come here to dismantle anyones belief in the IJ, far from it. We do live in a so called free world and if a person wants to believe in the IJ then well and good.

Richard Myers · « **Reply #216 on:** March 31, 2012, 09:33:56 AM »

Good morning, Billy. You are so very correct. Few have ever heard a sermon on the "investigative judgment". Why do you think this to be the case?

Wally · « **Reply #217 on:** March 31, 2012, 03:12:21 PM »

Quote from: billy on March 31, 2012, 06:35:19 AM

Hi, when was the last time you heard a Sabbath sermon on the IJ? I don't think I have ever heard one. Maybe it does get preached and I have been away that Sabbath when it happened. But I doubt it. Do not think for one moment I have come here to dismantle anyones belief in the IJ, far from it. We do live in a so called free world and if a person wants to believe in the IJ then well and good.

You make some good points, Billy. It just so happens that our pastor preached about it the last two times he was here. And last year, I included it in my "Pillars of the Faith" series. But, in general one doesn't hear many sermons about it. I'm afraid too many Adventists aren't too clear on it and others are embarrassed by it. But, as Cliff Goldstein thinks it's easier to prove the IJ from Scripture than it is the Sabbath. That's a pretty strong statement and shows how solid the doctrine is.

colporteur · « **Reply #218 on:** March 31, 2012, 06:47:19 PM »

I think another reason why we do not hear as many sermons on this as we might is because human nature would prefer to believe that the road to heaven is wide and many there be that go in. Throw out the biblical truth about the investigative judgment and one can pretend for a time to have salvation through profession without any necessary change in one's character. Without the IJ all doctrine is rendered as of little importance. This is the direction that all of Babylon has done. This is also the direction that Laodicea has gone within much of the SDA church. There is so much freedom in Laodicea that one can even reject the core doctrines of the church and still remain a member of a church one does not believe in. A faithful few will never give up this teaching of Christ ( the IJ) because it is true and it is reality.

Mimi · « **Reply #219 on:** March 31, 2012, 07:51:39 PM »

Quote from: billy on March 31, 2012, 06:35:19 AM

Hi, when was the last time you heard a Sabbath sermon on the IJ? I don't think I have ever heard one. Maybe it does get preached and I have been away that Sabbath when it happened. But I doubt it. Do not think for one moment I have come here to dismantle anyones belief in the IJ, far from it. We do live in a so called free world and if a person wants to believe in the IJ then well and good.

I guess one could ask, "Would God have us believe in it?" He set up the system.