Author Topic: Investigative Judgment  (Read 131208 times)

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Richard Myers

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #160 on: February 16, 2010, 10:11:50 AM »
Brother Steve, it is not what I think, it is what God says. He is the judge, not me. But, I think it good that we understand the plan of salvation. It appears that you do, but many do not.  I am just asking you to share with us what this statement means.  I do not know what it means. Maybe if you give me something from Scripture that will help me and others understand. It must not be sin. Is that right? Or is it sin? What are we saying when we say "to their best ability." It seems to imply that something is amiss. Is it known sin or just unknown sin? I am asking for clarification so none will come up to the day of reckoning and be surprised when Jesus says, depart from me. Can you tell me where I can find this truth in Scripture. Thank you.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Steve Billiter

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #161 on: February 16, 2010, 10:42:57 AM »
Richard, I think it is already very clear. I gave scripture and my analysis. Lets not split hairs.

Thank you Steve
Steve Billiter

Donna H

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #162 on: February 16, 2010, 11:29:53 AM »
Regarding receiving the gifts of the Spirit, perfection, giving our whole heart to God, and "making no provision for the flesh"...

... with some reluctance, and a humble preface of newbie-ness. I'm not claiming to know anything, but trying to excersise the possiblity of knowing something. This is just how it seems at this point in time:


God does not force Himself upon us. This we know. He works in us to unravel our minds and our hearts - our beliefs and our protective defenses - in tender, compassionate, pleading ways so we can choose to give, and allow ourselves to receive. He's definately working for us tirelessly. But we can only choose to give our hearts and minds to Him as much as we trust Him. So, also, we can only receive as much as we trust Him.

I don't know about you guys, but I have some pretty rock hard mental defenses which I have built up in order to save my life. We all do, and we all are unaware of how deep they go. As soon as trust is broken in our lives (and it starts very early for many) we erect some sort of defense, and build up those walls and our hearts become hardened. God has to unravel all that so we truly do trust Him (Faith is a gift from God). We can only give our hearts and minds to God as much as we trust Him. To trust is not a decision we make. We take the chance, but trust is always built and earned. God definately has taken the responsibility in my life and in our relationship to build that trust in me. He proves Himself to me continually.  And with the deepening of trust, I love more deeply, and I am able to give more of my heart and mind, which leads to an increased ability to obey, naturally. Our characters do change, and obedience becomes our character. But still, every growth God grows in me I realize more that is in the way. And He proves Himself again, and the circle deepens.

Because He does not force us, but allows us to choose, He is limited in the time it takes for His love to be perfected in us. We can only ever give to the best of our ability, both with God and without God, because we are both with God and without God, not according to His desire or in contradiction to the reality of His constant and eternal presence, but according to our choice, which is limited by our trust, which was limited by all the hurts and wounds we have nursed with lies from the enemy and our own futile mental constructs.

"I'll never be perfect soon enough!" is my desperate fear, but there has to be room for growth. And we can only ever do our best with God and without God because He will not force us. I want the magic wand to make me perfect. I want the full measure of His gifts. I want to be complete. But I'm riddled with secret faults, as we all are, and I can't handle them all at once because trust is a life and death issue, and I cannot just simply choose to trust completely.

Jesus knows me because I know Him. I know Jesus because I seek Him and He shows Himself to me. Jesus knows me because I opened the door when He knocked and I let Him in. I know this is true because I am a changed woman.  My life is a miracle and a testimony of His power to save. I can tell the world from my personal experience that God is love, and Jesus is the light of the world and there is no darkness in Him.  I know God. I know the God of the Bible is true and real.

But I'm not perfect, nor even close to being perfect.
I have the gifts of the Spirit, but I also have sin, and they didn't all come at once, and I'm still working on a couple.
I please God with the Holy Spirit, but I'm a dichotomy,
and I can only ever do my best according to my ability, both with God and without God.

"If we say we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." I John 1:8 

How is it that anyone is going to be able say that they are perfect? At any point in our lives? Even if we are able to walk entirely according to the Spirit, we will have our corrupted and corruptable bodies and sin will be in us. And we will know we have sin.



Faith is the living power that presses through every barrier, overrides all obstacles, and plants its banner in the heart of the enemy’s camp. 4T 163.3

ian rankin

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #163 on: February 16, 2010, 12:57:11 PM »
\Hi,
I have been reading with great interest the exchganges on this topic. One thing I notice is that the discussion focusses on the end of the Investigative Judgement and I feel it is important to start with the beginning'
By that I mean that the subject starts with the sanctuary, the annual Day of Atonement.
On that day only two things mattered:-
1. Was the individual's covenant relationship clear? The NT application is Jn 5:24
     Remember that the offerings were for ceremonial defilement. There were no offering for deliberate breaking of the commandments Num 15:27-36. Lev 4. Heb 9:7. Heb 6:4-6

2. Would the High Priest be accepted? For the NT believer, our High Priest has already been accepted

God bless,
Ian
Ian Rankin

Steve Billiter

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #164 on: February 16, 2010, 02:49:51 PM »
"and I can only ever do my best according to my ability, both with God and without God."

Amen Donna, well said.

God Bless! Steve
Steve Billiter

Tim2

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #165 on: February 16, 2010, 04:27:53 PM »
Richard, I always admire your raising the standard.  You are right when you say there is no excuse for sin.  I agree.  I cannot trust myself when it comes to making excuses.  Remember Adam and Eves initial response to "being caught?"  It comes so natural to us and I don't want to be like that.  Here are a couple quotes from which I drew my earlier thoughts.

Jesus loves His children, even if they err. They belong to Jesus and we are to treat them as the purchase of the blood of Jesus Christ. Any unreasonable course pursued toward them is written in the books as against Jesus Christ. He keeps His eye upon them, and when they do their best, calling upon God for His help, be assured the service will be accepted, although imperfect. Jesus is perfect. Christ's righteousness is imputed unto them, and He will say, Take away the filthy garments from him, and clothe him with change of raiment. Jesus makes up for our unavoidable deficiencies. Where Christians are faithful to each other, true and loyal to the Captain of the Lord's host, never betraying trusts into the enemy's hands, they will be transformed into Christ's character. Jesus will abide in their hearts by faith.--Letter 17a, 1891, p. 8. (To Brother and Sister Ings, and Elder Fulton, Nov. 18, 1891.)  Released Sept. 19, 1961. {2MR 184.2}

The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin, ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary: but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God. . . . All incense from earthly tabernacles must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ. He holds before the Father the censer of His own merits, in which there is no taint of earthly corruption. He gathers into this censer the prayers, the praise, and the confessions of His people, and with these He puts His own spotless righteousness. Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ's propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable. . . .  {AG 154.4}

     O, that all may see that everything in obedience, in penitence, in praise and thanksgiving must be placed upon the glowing fire of the righteousness of Christ. {AG 154.5}


I was also trying to look up a quote that I ran across sometime back.  Perhaps someone can help me out.  It is something about how God takes into consideration where a man comes from (background).




Steve Billiter

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #166 on: February 16, 2010, 05:46:34 PM »
Ian,

I'm not sure what your main point is here, but yes the sanctuary service really starts in Leviticus  and other OT sections. There were sin offerings, burnt offerings, trespass offerings, thank offerings and much more. Before that it really starts with Adam, Cain and Abel.
Hebrews 9 is critical for transition to Christ in the holy place, and then the Most Holy. The yearly anti-typical Day of Atonement represents the work of Christ in the Most Holy, and carries all the way to the scapegoat, represented by Satan as he bears the final penalty for his sin and the sin of the saints, when the cleansing flames do their work at the end of the 1000 years.

Then we study the 2300 years on to 1844 and the 3 angels messages, with the temple in heaven open and the ark of the covenant in view and the light shining upon the 4th commandment, the Sabbath. Connected also is the Open and Shut door in the Bible and EGW.

The investigative judgment really forms the heart of Adventist doctrine, as all truth is connected to this vital pillar of our faith.

Steve
Steve Billiter

Tim2

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #167 on: February 16, 2010, 08:08:37 PM »
I was thinking about the SOP quote were she pens the phrase "when they do their best."  This is obviously only something God can know.  Our best is constantly falling short of God's glory and yet we are to change from glory to glory as we behold Him.  As we press on toward the mark of our high calling, our best then, becomes better and better according to the heavenly standard.  Our own judgment of what our best is, would only hold us back from Gods lofty requirements.   Thank you, Richard for helping me see that.

Mimi

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #168 on: February 16, 2010, 08:53:22 PM »
Is this it, Brother Tim?

There is no excuse for sin or for indolence. Jesus has led the way, and He wishes us to follow in His steps. He has suffered, He has sacrificed as none of us can, that He might bring salvation within our reach. We need not be discouraged. Jesus came to our world to bring divine power to man, that through His grace, we might be transformed into His likeness.  {FW 49.4}
 
    When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit. But He will not accept those who claim to have faith in Him and yet are disloyal to His Father's commandment. We hear a great deal about faith, but we need to hear a great deal more about works. Many are deceiving their own souls by living an easy-going, accommodating, crossless religion.  {FW 50.1} 

     But Jesus says, "If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me" (Matthew 16:24).  {FW 50.2} 
  For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. Psalm 119:89 

Richard Myers

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #169 on: February 16, 2010, 09:30:10 PM »
I was thinking about the SOP quote were she pens the phrase "when they do their best."  This is obviously only something God can know.  Our best is constantly falling short of God's glory and yet we are to change from glory to glory as we behold Him.  As we press on toward the mark of our high calling, our best then, becomes better and better according to the heavenly standard.  Our own judgment of what our best is, would only hold us back from Gods lofty requirements.   Thank you, Richard for helping me see that.

Yes, the closer we get to Jesus, the better our understanding of His ways. Then, we more clearly see our imperfections. The statement Sister Sybil has provided helps us to better understand what these "deficiencies" are.  Often we find teachers who make excuses for sin using these thoughts in an attempt to make void God's Word. Only half of the truth is presented and by excluding the other half, the truth is misrepresented. It therefore becomes very important to define what "deficiencies" are. One thing that they are not, is a lack of faith or a broken relationship. Salvation is a complete surrender where self is dead. The heart is pure and holy. The flesh is corrupt, but not the new heart. The only good in man is when the Spirit lives in the heart of man. It is not I, but Christ. Each of the fruits of the Spirit are present when one is a partaker of the divine nature.

In the investigative judgment, the evidence is not God's Word that a person's heart was pure, but it is the deeds, the words, the thoughts, and the motives. All will understand that the life was given fully to Christ or it was not. None will question the sentence rendered. The final decision rests upon evidence. A life that measures with the law of God.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Steve Billiter

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #170 on: February 16, 2010, 10:02:25 PM »
Richard, somehow the focus from Tims original quote was not treated on its own merits, that was my focus, apparently it was not yours.

"Each must trust and obey in every particular to their best ability, walking according to the spirit --making no provision for the flesh." 

Tims original quote speaks of our very best we can give to God in obedience to His requirements, "making no provision for the flesh" is the loftiest goal imaginable. I spoke from the platform of today, one day at a time, so my purpose was to not carry forward that line of thinking to the next level, though I could have.

Then you said:

 If  I say this, is it the same thing?   "Each must trust and obey in every particular walking according to the spirit --making no provision for the flesh."   

Here you speak of the perfection of Jesus Christ. Can we attain to that goal? This means not even sinning by our thoughts.

We can only attain to His perfection by His Robe of Righteousness He covers us with, as ours is filthy rags.

 None need fail of attaining, in his sphere, to perfection of Christian character. By the sacrifice of Christ, provision has been made for the believer to receive all things that pertain to life and godliness. God calls upon us to reach the standard of perfection and places before us the example of Christ's character. In His humanity, perfected by a life of constant resistance of evil, the Saviour showed that through co-operation with Divinity, human beings may in this life attain to perfection of character. This is God's assurance to us that we, too, may obtain complete victory{AA 531.2} 

The quote that you changed to, to me sets an unattainable goal as it stands alone. Though later in the thread you do expound well on Christs righteousness, it seems that it should have been connected to your quote change, since you desired to take things to another level.

It is implied, since no other distinction was originally made , that one is doing his best, that day we speak of. Who can ask for more?

So my objection is that is instead of you saying, "In addition to that" and giving exposition on sanctification, you instead chose to take that quote away from it's origin and stand-alone position, which was the original intent, and say you see opening for sin!

I disagree. the "opening for sin" that you implied was the person was not perfect "like Christ" but only doing his best.

It would have been in my view more correct to say,"In addition, one may fall into sin if his walk with Christ is not progressive."
.

But then what about afterward? What about the days following "our best?"

Pro 4:18  But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shines more and more to the perfect day.

As we die to self daily and put on Christ, our path of light that shines with increased knowledge and the ever-increasing discerning of the will of God, will shine brighter and we will receive fresh revelations of God's glory as time moves forward to the perfect day when He comes. Bible sanctification is that process where we behold Christ, and from day to day we are formed in the image of His lovely character to better reflect His perfect example.

I maintain that Tim's quote in its original limited meaning was perfectly fine, I see no error, nor any lack thereof "in its sphere." Saying the quote itself leaves opening for sin without further qualification is in my view, unjustified.



Steve Billiter

Tim2

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #171 on: February 17, 2010, 05:32:52 AM »
Thank you, brother Steve for your words of encouragement.  Although I've been a Christian SDA for a long time, there is never a time when I can't learn more.  I have the luxury of throwing my own thoughts out there into cyberspace and feeling that I have expressed myself correctly.  The moderators of this forum have a much more difficult task to consider; how a reply might be received from a wide variety of backgrounds, education, personalities and religious persuasions -- I understand the need for constantly tempering each statement with a balancing truth.  I don't take it personally.  In fact, I appreciate it! :)  We all try to share in the most courteous, Christ-like manner in hope that it will ultimately assist in each members spiritual growth -- no matter what level -- the goal is to be "in Christ", exhibiting the fruits of the spirit --

This kind of communication is difficult sometimes because emotion is read (rightly or wrongly) into what is being said.  It's just the nature of this kind of communication.  So we all try extra, extra, extra hard as far as "how" we say something and how we respond to what is said.  When I first became a member, I just shared in my usual blunt, to the point way.  I didn't realize that I offended often -- I had to apologize. :-[

In all fairness, though, some of the caution that is being sent my way is because of my stance on Romans 7.  You may find much more to disagree with there, my friend. :)  But.... as far as the Investigative Judgment and after probation closes, we must not be sinning even in a thought.  (Oh, I've got work to do in that area -- please, pray for me!)  When the test comes, it will reveal the character that we have already developed -- just as it was in school.  The final exam did not prepare us -- but revealed the time we had already spent in preparation.  Again, brother Steve, thank you for your kind thoughts.

Steve Billiter

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #172 on: February 17, 2010, 06:33:25 AM »
Amen, Tim, I'm still learning every day and I praise the Lord for bearing long with me. Richard desired to direct our thoughts higher, and there's certainly nothing wrong with that, and I believe he did do that. Sometimes learned brethren will kindly disagree upon methodology and theological concepts, but the Lord has provided also for our edification.

May Jesus continue to reveal Himself to you as you seek Him!
Steve Billiter

Richard Myers

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #173 on: February 17, 2010, 11:06:43 AM »
So we all try extra, extra, extra hard as far as "how" we say something and how we respond to what is said.  When I first became a member, I just shared in my usual blunt, to the point way.  I didn't realize that I offended often -- I had to apologize. :-[

It is true that I have a short memory when it comes to such things, but I don't recall you offending anyone, dear brother. While we disagree on Romans 7, you have never offended anyone that I know of by your words.  You have been gracious in presenting your thoughts. It is so much appreciated.

Quote
In all fairness, though, some of the caution that is being sent my way is because of my stance on Romans 7.

It is not in my mind. :)  I know what is being taught in the church and I know what statements are used to undo the power and need of grace, moment by moment. It is the twisting of Scripture that goes on day after day. Satan does not present just error, he presents truth mingled with error. After years of contending with both liberals and conservatives, I have learned to put statements in their proper context so that others will not be led further away from the truth as it is in Jesus. It is not a reflection on your presentation, Brother Tim, but just knowing that many will take the statement to mean something it does not. If the church were not in a Laodicean condition, then it would not be so important. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned, but the church is Laodicean. Therefore, the blind cannot see. Our effort is to present Christ as the power to overcome. Most presentations in Christian churches are not directed at the true gospel of grace where it is revealed we need Jesus all the time. Most "gospels" excuse sin and allow for the sinner to have eternal life when Jesus is not in possession of the heart. This removes the ability of the schoolmaster to lead the sinner to see his need of Christ. If one believes he is well when he is sick, then he continues to remain apart from Christ, not seeing his need.

When I say that when doing my best, I have eternal life, then it is a subjective matter. Most who are in the churches today will say "I am doing my best".  This serves only to keep the sinner locked in his lost condition. Brother Tim, I know that this is not what you are saying, but there are many who are. The relatively few who are converted, understand that their best is not good enough. It is Christ they need. But, so many are living a life of deception. They are trying, but when their names come up before God and the books are opened, they will meet with disappointment, their best was not good enough. The criteria for salvation is having Christ, loving Christ with all the heart. He will finish the work in us, but only if we understand that we have not arrived. If we think that doing our best is good enough, most will fail of attaining salvation.  We are not preaching to the choir. The choir is very very small. The churches are deceived in this matter. Most need a clear understanding of the simplicity of the gospel. This is the burden God has placed on my heart. The loveliness of Jesus is what we need to see. If we will behold Him, if we will feed upon Him, He will lead us to the fountain of waters that result in eternal life.


Quote
You may find much more to disagree with there, my friend. :)  But.... as far as the Investigative Judgment and after probation closes, we must not be sinning even in a thought.  (Oh, I've got work to do in that area -- please, pray for me!)  When the test comes, it will reveal the character that we have already developed -- just as it was in school.  The final exam did not prepare us -- but revealed the time we had already spent in preparation.

Amen!!  And probation is closing for many today and for many others tomorrow. Today is the day of salvation.   Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?  He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully. He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.   Psalms 24:3-5.  God's grace is sufficient. Let us feed upon Him who gave all for us.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

ian rankin

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #174 on: February 18, 2010, 12:52:30 PM »
Steve,
I am replying to your posting No 166.
You write, ‘I am not sure what your main point is here’.  I shall try to clarify my point.

You write, ‘The Investigative Judgement doctrine really forms the heart of Adventist doctrine’. I would add, ‘of end-time events.’
The test of the truth of this as Bible doctrine is being able to show it as the anti-typical fulfilment of the Old Testament annual feast of the Day of Atonement.

There is a general belief that the sanctuary services allowed the Israelite the opportunity to make the appropriate offering for forgiveness of his sins, that is, transgression of the Law.
However the offerings an individual Israelite made were for ceremonial defilement, or on becoming aware of having unintentionally broken the Law. See Leviticus 4 and Numbers 15:27-31. This is referred to in Hebrews 9:7.
Ps 51, the experience of David when confronted with his adultery and murder illustrates that there was no prescribed offering for forgiveness of wilful breaking of the commandments. All he could do was to seek God’s forgiveness and God always accepts a broken spirit and contrite heart.

Our understanding of the anti-typical Investigative Judgement must grow from our understanding of Day of Atonement.

On that day an Israelite’s security was not his sinlessness, but his being in covenant relationship and the ministry of his high priest being accepted. Note John 5:24, those who have accepted Jesus, ‘do not come into judgement’.
God bless,
Ian



Ian Rankin

Steve Billiter

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #175 on: February 18, 2010, 07:04:45 PM »
Ian, I cannot agree with you. The Bible is clear that sacrifices were ordained by God to prefigure Christ on the Day of Atonement. It is true OT men repented and confessed sin just as we do, but they also offered the sacrifices as proscribed by God. No merit was in the animal sacrifices, the merit then was in Christ, but the Israelites still were required to obey God in every particular of the sanctuary service.

The record of Cain and Abel proves that to be true. Lev. 16, speaks of the day of atonement.

Lev 16:15  Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the veil, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:

Lev 16:16  And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remains among them in the middle of their uncleanness.

Lev 16:29  And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you:

"Afflict your souls" meaning confession of sin and repentance.

The IJ is also connected to the OT sanctuary service. We did not have light on the IJ until 1844, when Jesus entered the Most holy.

Yes, we have a record of Davids repentance in Psalm 51, but David also participated in all the Lord commanded concerning the sacrificial and feast system. without that, Davids sins would not have been forgiven.

Where do you get the idea that the day of Atonement was a feast day?

Good books on the sanctuary are, "The Sanctuary Service"  by M L. Andreasen, which I am reading now, And the
"Cross and its Shadow" by Stephen N. Haskel;

The entire body of the whole burnt-offering and portions of various offerings were burned upon this brazen altar. It consumed that which typified sin; and as the fires were continually burning, it has been called "the altar of continual atonement." Sin separates man from God, 10 and all sin must be put away before the sinner can be at-one-ment with God. Therefore the work done upon this altar was a symbol of the final destruction of sin, which will be necessary before the redeemed can enjoy their eternal inheritance. {1914 SNH, CIS 175.1}
Paul referred to this altar as a type of Christ. 11 All the work connected with the altar of burnt-offering typified the work connected with the destruction of sin, a work which Christ alone can do. The Father has delivered into the hands of His Son the final destruction of sin and sinners. 12 {1914 SNH, CIS 175.2} S.N. Haskell


No sacrifice was ever slain within the sanctuary; but the offerings were slain in the court, and the blood and flesh were carried within the sanctuary by the priest. Christ, the great antitypical Sacrifice, was slain in the antitypical court, this earth, and then entered the antitypical sanctuary in the heavens with His own blood and the same body in which He bore our sins on Calvary. Sins are forgiven, and are blotted out from the books in the heavenly sanctuary; but they are not destroyed there. Just as in the type the fires of the brazen altar in the court consumed that which in type represented sin; so in the antitype, the wicked will be "on the breadth of the earth" when fire comes down from God out of heaven and devours them. 13 This earth is the great antitypical court, where all the work typified in the court of the earthly sanctuary will meet its fulfilment. {1914 SNH, CIS 176.3}
The constant burning upon the altar of that which typified sin, caused an accumulation of ashes. The priests in the earthly sanctuary served "unto the example and shadow of
177
heavenly things," 14 and even the removal of the ashes was directed of the Lord to be done in a manner to typify a portion of the final work of Christ. The priest was to be clothed in the pure white linen garments, when he removed the ashes from the altar. The ashes were first taken up by the priest and placed "beside the altar" on the east side. 15 When the time came to remove them from beside the altar, the priest laid aside his priestly robes, and "put on other garments;" then he carried the ashes forth without the camp, and poured them out in "a clean place." 17 Ashes are all that will remain of sin, the devil and sinners after the fires of the 1ast day have finished their work.  When the purifying fires of the Lord have removed the last trace of sin, there will appear a new earth, a clean place, without one taint of sin upon it; and as the righteous walk over the face of the clean, pure earth, the ashes of sin and all that clung to sin in this earth will be under their feet. Truly the type will then have met its antitype, and the ashes of all sin will be in "a clean place." {1914 SNH, CIS 176.4
Steve Billiter

Richard Myers

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #176 on: February 19, 2010, 09:31:53 AM »
 Remember that the offerings were for ceremonial defilement. There were no offering for deliberate breaking of the commandments Num 15:27-36. Lev 4. Heb 9:7. Heb 6:4-6

This thought has come up before. I have never heard a good explanation of how these deliberate sins could be forgiven if there were no sacrifice made for them. Can you explain your thinking on this, Brother Ian? Thank you.

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Donna H

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #177 on: February 19, 2010, 04:08:46 PM »
Can you help me out?

How can it be that Christ will at some point stop being our mediator?

Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil.
– The Great Controversy, chapter 24

This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one that enters within the veil, where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.
-Hebrews 6:19, 20


Can someone point me to scripture that explains this part of the IJ? I am reading about the IJ, but there is a lot to read. If someone could point me straight there, I would appreciate it.

Thank you
dchena

Faith is the living power that presses through every barrier, overrides all obstacles, and plants its banner in the heart of the enemy’s camp. 4T 163.3

Steve Billiter

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #178 on: February 19, 2010, 05:24:39 PM »
Yes Donna, I'll try. Just before the Lords return Jesus will leave the Most Holy and make this pronouncement:

Rev 22:11  He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Rev 22:12  And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

At this point the High Priest duties of Jesus is over.The living saints have over come every sin and will stand in the sight of a Holy God without a mediator. This is also the time of Jacob's trouble, and the saints will agonize with God, afflicting their souls because of their unworthiness.

Rev 3:21  To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

And your question about Hebrews:

Heb 6:20  Where the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

The Greek word "ever" in this context mean a certain age, or period on time, or until it's done. It does not carry the meaning of "unending." Why would anyone need a mediator in heaven?

Rev 14:11  And the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

The same Greek word and its meaning in this context is used here. The wicked only burn until its done.

So we can overcome sin in the strength and power of Jesus Christ:

Php 4:13  I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me.

1Co 15:57  But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 I suggest reading th last few chapters of the Great Controversy.

God Bless! Steve














Steve Billiter

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #179 on: February 19, 2010, 06:19:30 PM »
Donna;

I believe this is a matter of understanding what "mediating" means when we are told that God's people will be without a mediator when Christ stands up.

When Christ stands the judgment and atonement are complete. There is no more sin to mediate for. Anyone that continues in sin at that point has already been found wanting, there character will not be changed and any more mediating for sin would accomplish nothing. That does not mean that God is not protecting, leading, and sustaning His people. He is still our High Priest.
It's easier to slow a fast horse down than to get a dead one going.