Author Topic: Bible Translations (Read 210563 times)

Richard Myers · « **Reply #240 on:** March 16, 2008, 10:42:27 AM »

Yes, and I think that, while it is another subject, may be of interest in this verse also. I am not sure, but will take a closer look.

I am willing to be open and say that I am only interested in the gospel being clearly translated, but it may be that God would not allow me to be so accommodating.

In my desire to come into unity with you and others who appreciate many of the new translations, it may be that I overstep my freedom.

aerasmus · « **Reply #241 on:** March 16, 2008, 11:01:05 AM »

Quote from: Richard Myers on March 16, 2008, 10:42:27 AM

Yes, and I think that, while it is another subject, may be of interest in this verse also. I am not sure, but will take a closer look. I am willing to be open and say that I am only interested in the gospel being clearly translated, but it may be that God would not allow me to be so accommodating. In my desire to come into unity with you and others who appreciate many of the new translations, it may be that I overstep my freedom.

The only thing I am interested in, is to Follow the Word of God, and to understand it. I have learned in my short life that Tradition is not to be put above the Word of God, as I am sure all would agree

Richard Myers · « **Reply #242 on:** March 16, 2008, 11:14:55 AM »

Amen!!

When you said "He is God", were you indicating Jesus? While I was walking in the warm sunshine and breathing in the fresh clean air, I stopped to wonder if this was who you meant?

aerasmus · « **Reply #243 on:** March 16, 2008, 11:35:37 AM »

Quote from: Richard Myers on March 16, 2008, 11:14:55 AM

Amen!!

When you said "He is God", were you indicating Jesus? While I was walking in the warm sunshine and breathing in the fresh clean air, I stopped to wonder if this was who you meant?

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD

Mimi · « **Reply #244 on:** March 16, 2008, 04:44:02 PM »

1 Thessalonians 5:23

Look at this text showing how the change of one simple word can quite possibly change theology, IMO. Notice "unto" the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in the KJV. In the Greek this is: unto 1722 - a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537)

The NKJV gives us "at" the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and you will see what the other versions render. Give me your thoughts.

KJV 1Thess. 5:23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

NKJV 1Thess. 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

MSG (The Message) 1Thess 5:23-24 May God himself, the God who makes everything holy and whole, make you holy and whole, put you together—spirit, soul, and body—and keep you fit for the coming of our Master, Jesus Christ. The One who called you is completely dependable. If he said it, he'll do it!

WYC (Wycliffe) 1Thess. 5:23 And God himself of peace make you holy by all things, that your spirit be kept whole, and soul, and body, without plaint, in the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

TNIV 1Thess. 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Richard Myers · « **Reply #245 on:** March 16, 2008, 08:54:40 PM »

Quote from: Mimi on March 16, 2008, 04:44:02 PM

1 Thessalonians 5:23

KJV 1Thess. 5:23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

NKJV 1Thess. 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Looks pretty serious. Why change it? What was the matter with the KJV? And, if you really just wanted to use a more modern world, how about "until"?

It is this subject that concerns me most. This appears to hit right at the gospel of grace.

Richard Myers · « **Reply #246 on:** March 16, 2008, 08:56:02 PM »

Quote from: aerasmus on March 16, 2008, 11:35:37 AM

Quote from: Richard Myers on March 16, 2008, 11:14:55 AM
Amen!!

When you said "He is God", were you indicating Jesus? While I was walking in the warm sunshine and breathing in the fresh clean air, I stopped to wonder if this was who you meant?

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD

Sorry, Brother Andre, you will have to answer me more directly. Is it Jesus that is God? Or do you reject that idea?

aerasmus · « **Reply #247 on:** March 16, 2008, 11:58:25 PM »

Quote from: Richard Myers on March 16, 2008, 08:56:02 PM

Quote from: aerasmus on March 16, 2008, 11:35:37 AM
Quote from: Richard Myers on March 16, 2008, 11:14:55 AM
Amen!!

When you said "He is God", were you indicating Jesus? While I was walking in the warm sunshine and breathing in the fresh clean air, I stopped to wonder if this was who you meant?

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD

Sorry, Brother Andre, you will have to answer me more directly. Is it Jesus that is God? Or do you reject that idea?

Richard you said "They are God" I was referring to the fact that God is one... Jesus, Holy Ghost and Father = One( I am a monotheist)

Jesus was God made flesh, He is the "I am" He is my saviour and He is my Creator, and He is my Lord.

He is God!

I have not given the slightest indication that I do not accept Christ as God, and as God incarnate. If He was/is not God, then I am in trouble, because then my sins could not have been washed away...
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these
Heb 9:26 ... but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

And if He was/is not God, then there is no reason for my existence. Christ is everything to me, I shall serve Him with all my breath, and if I am not allowed to serve Him, then I would rather not be living!

I do not think I can be accused of rejecting Christ, as if I were to do so, then I would have had to reject His Word... I would have thought that you would've realised that I spend my time debating translations, because of my love for His Word... For God.

Lets not forget "...His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. "

aerasmus · « **Reply #248 on:** March 17, 2008, 12:26:48 AM »

Quote from: Richard Myers on March 16, 2008, 08:54:40 PM

Quote from: Mimi on March 16, 2008, 04:44:02 PM
1 Thessalonians 5:23

KJV 1Thess. 5:23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

NKJV 1Thess. 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Looks pretty serious. Why change it? What was the matter with the KJV? And, if you really just wanted to use a more modern world, how about "until"?

It is this subject that concerns me most. This appears to hit right at the gospel of grace.

en
A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537); “in”, at, (up-) on, by, etc.: - about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-) by (+ all means), for (. . . sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-) in (-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-) on, [open-] ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedi-] ly, X that, X there (-in, -on), through (-out), (un-) to(-ward), under, when, where (-with), while, with (-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) prep.

Okay, now that we see what it can mean in Greek, and understanding that Translating is not as easy as thought

if we consider a small preposition such as en...

Lets see what the SDA Bible Commentary says on this one.

Unto. Or, “at,” that is, at the time of the coming.

Nichol, Francis D.: The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary : The Holy Bible With Exegetical and Expository Comment. Washington, D.C. : Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1978 (Commentary Reference Series), S. 1 Th 5:24

Mimi · « **Reply #249 on:** March 17, 2008, 04:56:01 AM »

This is an interesting one, huh? I have trouble with it. 1 Thessalonians 5:23

"Unto" appears to denote a "holding power" through a span of time culminating at His coming.

"At" appears to denote something which will happen only when Jesus comes.

If I had a good handle on Spanish, my concerns could be explained with more specificity. English is really quite limiting.

Mimi · « **Reply #250 on:** March 17, 2008, 05:23:53 AM »

1 Timothy 6:5

KJV Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

NKJV useless wranglings(a) of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.(b)

a. 1 Timothy 6:5 NU-Text and M-Text read constant friction.
b. 1 Timothy 6:5 NU-Text omits this sentence.

ESV and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.

"from such withdraw yourself" is omitted

ASV wranglings of men corrupted in mind and bereft of the truth, supposing that godliness is a way of gain.

"from such withdraw yourself" is omitted

NIV and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

"from such withdraw yourself" is omitted

7SDABC, 317, on the last phrase of this text (KJV) says "textual evidence favors the omission of this clause." There is a further reference to page 10 of the same volume explaining textual evidence for variant readings.

What do we want to do with this? Did a copyist add this clause in the KJV? Was it inferred, yet not strongly enough to include it in the newer translations?

aerasmus · « **Reply #251 on:** March 17, 2008, 05:28:40 AM »

Quote from: Mimi on March 17, 2008, 04:56:01 AM

This is an interesting one, huh? I have trouble with it. 1 Thessalonians 5:23

"Unto" appears to denote a "holding power" through a span of time culminating at His coming.

"At" appears to denote something which will happen only when Jesus comes.

If I had a good handle on Spanish, my concerns could be explained with more specificity. English is really quite limiting.

I have a good handle of Afrikaans, which also Translate it "at"

But this is not a problem, if one consider the words, it could be in referrence that the people are to remain alive and well, thus not consumed by the coming of Christ, due to the fact that the unrepentant will be consumed by His glory.

aerasmus · « **Reply #252 on:** March 17, 2008, 05:39:18 AM »

Quote from: Mimi on March 17, 2008, 05:23:53 AM

1 Timothy 6:5

KJV Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

NKJV useless wranglings(a) of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.(b)

a. 1 Timothy 6:5 NU-Text and M-Text read constant friction.
b. 1 Timothy 6:5 NU-Text omits this sentence.

ESV and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.

"from such withdraw yourself" is omitted

ASV wranglings of men corrupted in mind and bereft of the truth, supposing that godliness is a way of gain.

"from such withdraw yourself" is omitted

NIV and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

"from such withdraw yourself" is omitted

7SDABC, 317, on the last phrase of this text (KJV) says "textual evidence favors the omission of this clause." There is a further reference to page 10 of the same volume explaining textual evidence for variant readings.

What do we want to do with this? Did a copyist add this clause in the KJV? Was it inferred, yet not strongly enough to include it in the newer translations?

Even if this is added by a copyist(These were not mere "copyist" but men that truly served God and I believe lived by His Word) It does not cause any problem for me, I think it is an inferrence made, if we read the context and if we consider the Bible as a whole, we can justify the statement, even if it was originally added as a commentary...

Now if it is not added, in modern translations, due to the fact that these translations are trying to keep to what the original writers wrote, I don't see a problem with that either, I do think that they can be commended for keeping as close as possible to the original and should not be persecuted for doing so, which unfortunately alot of KJV-only loyalists have been doing.

Richard Myers · « **Reply #253 on:** March 17, 2008, 10:25:40 AM »

Quote from: aerasmus on March 16, 2008, 11:58:25 PM

Richard you said "They are God" I was referring to the fact that God is one... Jesus, Holy Ghost and Father = One( I am a monotheist)

Jesus was God made flesh, He is the "I am" He is my saviour and He is my Creator, and He is my Lord.

He is God!

I have not given the slightest indication that I do not accept Christ as God, and as God incarnate. If He was/is not God, then I am in trouble, because then my sins could not have been washed away...
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these
Heb 9:26 ... but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

And if He was/is not God, then there is no reason for my existence. Christ is everything to me, I shall serve Him with all my breath, and if I am not allowed to serve Him, then I would rather not be living!

I do not think I can be accused of rejecting Christ, as if I were to do so, then I would have had to reject His Word... I would have thought that you would've realised that I spend my time debating translations, because of my love for His Word... For God.

Lets not forget "...His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. "

Thank you, dear brother, I did not think you rejected Christ as God. In the context of the verse and the world we live in, it seems that this is an issue. Some seem to be upset with Jesus being God.

And therefore, it seems that the translations can help or hurt the truth.

Richard Myers · « **Reply #254 on:** March 17, 2008, 10:36:56 AM »

Quote from: Mimi on March 17, 2008, 04:56:01 AM

Thessalonians 5:23

"Unto" appears to denote a "holding power" through a span of time culminating at His coming.

"At" appears to denote something which will happen only when Jesus comes.

The NKJV leads us to believe that "at" the coming of Jesus something will happen.
The KJV leads us to believe that something will happen up until the coming of Christ.

What is the truth? Will this take place "at" the second coming or is it something that is carried up to the second coming? I believe the truth is that it is something that precedes the second coming and goes right up to the second coming. It is not something that happens "at" the second coming. Is this correct?

Mimi · « **Reply #255 on:** March 17, 2008, 10:59:24 AM »

That is how I read it, Richard. As an ongoing "thing" "unto" the coming of Jesus.

Let's look at something else in these two versions:

Quote

1 Thessalonians 5:23

KJV 1Thess. 5:23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

NKJV 1Thess. 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The KJV's opening words appear to be a statement, saying the very God of peace sanctify you wholly ..."

The NKJV's opening words are more like a prayer, "May the God" of peace Himself sanctify you ..."

Just more notices in the differences here. Do the opening words make a difference? One appears to be a solid statement whereas the other does not. WDYT?

aerasmus · « **Reply #256 on:** March 17, 2008, 11:43:52 AM »

sorry I don't see it the way you do, please look at what I have said previously...

Mimi · « **Reply #257 on:** March 17, 2008, 12:01:52 PM »

That's okay, brother - we are studying this out. I would assume we are older than you and it takes a bit more time to let these things percolate. What one sees, the other does not sometimes. We are just in the beginning stages of this, so be patient with your elders!

Brother Aerasums, what do you make of the subtle differences I just noted? Do you think they are significant?

Richard Myers · « **Reply #258 on:** March 17, 2008, 01:13:52 PM »

Quote from: Mimi on March 17, 2008, 10:59:24 AM

That is how I read it, Richard. As an ongoing "thing" "unto" the coming of Jesus.

Let's look at something else in these two versions:

Quote
1 Thessalonians 5:23

KJV 1Thess. 5:23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

NKJV 1Thess. 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The KJV's opening words appear to be a statement, saying the very God of peace sanctify you wholly ..."

The NKJV's opening words are more like a prayer, "May the God" of peace Himself sanctify you ..."

Just more notices in the differences here. Do the opening words make a difference? One appears to be a solid statement whereas the other does not. WDYT?

The opening does not bother me at all. It is a prayer. It is what that is being prayed for that bothers me.

It is for present sanctification and purity up until the time of Jesus' coming, not for "sanctification", AND "may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless AT the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." No, we want the whole spirit, soul, and body to be preserved blameless now, not AT the second coming.

Let us do a little analogy and see what Brother Andre thinks.

Brother Andre, let's say George has decided to quit using illegal drugs. He wants to get married soon and he wants his marriage to be good. He needs to tell his future wife that he has made this decision. He says to her "Dear Betsy, may God sanctify me completely; and I want Him to take my whole spirit, soul, and body and keep me from using drugs at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

What will Betsy say about this request of her soon to be husband? Will she go ahead and marry this drug addict based upon what he says he wants? What has he asked for?

asygo · « **Reply #259 on:** March 17, 2008, 07:15:13 PM »

Quote from: Richard Myers on March 16, 2008, 08:54:40 PM

Looks pretty serious. Why change it? What was the matter with the KJV? And, if you really just wanted to use a more modern world, how about "until"?

It is this subject that concerns me most. This appears to hit right at the gospel of grace.

Bro Richard,

I agree that this does look significant, so let's take a close and careful look.

1) Does the verse actually say what you want it to say? IOW, does "en" ever mean "until"? Does the KJV ever translate it as "until"? It looks to me that the word properly translated "until" is "heōs" (G2193). And the KJV translates it as "until" a significant portion of the time. So if the KJV translators thought "en" meant "until" they could very easily have translated it as "until." But they didn't.

2) If one is blameless, can such a person say that he has no sin? Or can a blameless person have sin?

3) Can our "whole spirit and soul and body" be blameless now? Keep in mind that sin includes missing the mark (hamartia), regardless of intent. It also includes any kind of crossing over the boundary of God's law (anomia). IOW, is blamelessness something we are to have now and keep until Jesus comes, or is it something that we will get then?

The first point there addresses the translation issue. The last two address the gospel of grace, and what it actually teaches.