Present Truth in the Book of Job

[Richard Myers]

Hopefully this light will make its way into a formal teaching in churches.

[Richard Myers]

We digressed from Job's experience to look at Elihu's character. We now see correctly what many have failed to discern. God will indeed reprove the leaders of the church through godly consecrated young men. This is not "arrogant" but according to Scripture as hateful as some may find it.

Now let us continue on as we look at Sister Sybil's study.

 

quote:Originally posted by Sybil:

So he went to Job's wife who would seemingly have some influence on him - that didn't work either. And it is interesting that she was not among his children slain by the tornado – but Satan reserved her as a potential influential instrument. Job held fast against the mother of his children. But it did work with his friends.

He worked mightily through his friends. The more they leaned on him, the less confidence he placed on God - so he turned inward to rely on himself. He gave incredible speeches on what he had accomplished, who revered him and just who he was to the community, to the point that he became prideful, self-righteous and self-reliant.

       

Job weathered the storm when he lost his property. He held onto God when he lost his children. He was not moved when his wife told him to curse God. Even in his extreme physical pain he did not yield his heart to sin. But, there was something that did cause him to fall. What temptation did Job yield to? Why did Job fall?

Sister Sybil points us to the work of his three "friends" who were high in the church. They were the "teachers" of his day. They understood doctrine and they began to work upon Job. Satan used these church leaders to condemn Job's theology. They told Job that the reason why this all came upon him and his family was because of his sin. Job knew this was not so. He knew if he was sinning or walking in the light. He was walking in the light. He had not been sinning.

Yes, I know that many minds are parroting what they have been taught by the "teachers" in the church. "We all have sinned. We all sin daily. None are without sin. It is impossible to walk in the light." God says otherwise and He did in regards to His friend Job. God declared of Job "There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil."

But, Job's three friends thought otherwise and began to attack Job's experience. Their theology was wrong. Poor Job. He had lost all except his wife who was being used by Satan to attack him. He was tired. He was sick. Now, he has his three friends that attack him with false theology and when this does not work, they continue along the same line attacking Job's character. Satan used false theology and character assassination by church leaders to push Job over the edge.

But, there is no excuse for sin. Job let loose his hold on God. It is much harder when we are tired or sick. But, God will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we can bear. He will provide a way of escape if we will continue to look to Him. Job did not. As Sister Sybil has pointed out, he began to look inward and we see this when he says of his three friends "Miserable comforters are ye." Instead of helping his three friends, he  expresses his own pain. This is only the beginning of Job's turning away from God to follow the leading of Satan.

I believe this to be present truth for us today. As we see that the end is approaching and that the church is not ready, there is an urgent desire to "fix" things in the church. As the Jobs and Elihus of our day work to present the truth, they will be met with much resistance. It will come from all corners, but most difficult will be the church leaders who attack Biblical truth. When they are not successful with their doctrinal attack, they will then attack the character. Here we may find the most difficult battle we have to fight, next to the battle with self.

Knowing that one is doctrinally right and that the church leaders are wrong can cause one to stumble and fall. It is very important that the connection with Christ be maintained in this battle for truth. God will take care of the "accusers of the brethren". We are to learn from Job's experience and prepare for the temptations that are to come to us.

[Mimi]

Bravo, Richard! You summed it up very well. Present truth is woven all through the book of Job. Again, God bless Elihu!

[Mimi]

More validation of present truth in the book of Job. We are in good company, not that it is all that important to be in the eyes of men, BUT, I did find Andreason agreeing in his Letters to the Churches, using Job's error, applying it to those who speak without knowledge:

"God's reproof of Job when he was talking too much ... "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?" Job 38:1. It is not often that God is sarcastic. But here He is. Read verse 21. Job deserved it."

[Richard Myers]

Yes, He was quite strong with Job.  God does not appreciate His people saying things that are not true.

[Greg Goodchild]

"Thus we see that Job did in fact sin. He was not as faithful as many teach. When we open our hearts and our minds to the still small voice that is in perfect harmony with Scripture we learn the lessons God wants us to learn. If we love God, we will like Job  fall on our faces and acknowledge our false statements and confess our self-righteousness that God will be honored and the errors of our speech will be corrected as much as is possible"

I think I understand how you have arrived at this thought but I do not take the same position as you do. I do not think that Job sinned and I think that Job was as faithful as many teach and more. I see Job's experience as wrestling with Jesus all through the book of Job, just as Jacob was trying to hurt Jesus all through the night, but he did not sin against Jesus. When he recognized who he was wrestling with he submitted to Jesus and would not let Jesus go even when Jesus told him to do so. Jesus, the True Judge of the Investigative Judgment, judged Jacob to be righteous. Jesus, the True Judge of the Investigative Judgment, also states the same about Job -"...for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath." Job 42:7

I think that Job was reprooved by Elihu and by Jesus, but I don't think reproof is always a sign of sin, but it can be a sign of discipline. Job certainly had to grow in his experience with God and I think that Job grew in harmony with the principles outlined by God. He grew in grace and truth. Job did not sin in his loss of his family, his possessions, his health, under false accusation, or even under correction and reproof. He stayed focused upon God, and when greater light came to him he was able to be humble, abhor himself, and repented of all his sins, just like Jacob and Daniel. DAniel 9:3

I believe that Job grew into a much deeper experience with Jesus as a result of his suffering and this will be the experience of all of God's people.

[Richard Myers]

I believe that Job grew into a much deeper experience with Jesus as a result of his suffering and this will be the experience of all of God's people.

Amen!  Well, all of God's people who repent of their sins as did Job. The three friends of Job did not repent from our reading. They may have, but we are not told. There are indeed Christians and  were Jews that fall and fell away. Job also learned from his sin.

I think I understand how you have arrived at this thought but I do not take the same position as you do. I do not think that Job sinned and I think that Job was as faithful as many teach and more. I see Job's experience as wrestling with Jesus all through the book of Job, just as Jacob was trying to hurt Jesus all through the night, but he did not sin against Jesus.

I find no words of reproof for current sin regarding Jacob's wrestling with God. It was a reminder of past sins that had been confessed. It was a test for Jacob which he passed. Yes, there was a test for Job also. But, Job did not do as well. Let us look at Job's fall and see if it was sin or not. Sin is the transgression of the law. Did Job transgress the law of God. This is a basic study in the foundation of gospel truth. Did Job remain in Christ, or did self rise up and take control of his life? And as we examine Job's life during his test, let us remember the sin that rose up in Lucifer's heart in heaven that cost not only his life, but the lives of 1/3 of the angels and billions of humans.

When he recognized who he was wrestling with he submitted to Jesus and would not let Jesus go even when Jesus told him to do so. Jesus, the True Judge of the Investigative Judgment, judged Jacob to be righteous.

It was not sin to not Jesus go. God wanted Jacob to hold on to Him, just as He wants us to hold on to Christ. This is where Job fell, he did not hold on to Christ, but instead let self come to life. Quite a difference in their experience.

Jesus, the True Judge of the Investigative Judgment, also states the same about Job -"...for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath." Job 42:7

We must take the Word of God in context. We must look at the time in which the Word is spoken. You will not find this statement from God about Job prior to his repentance. Why did God command Job's three friends to make a sacrifice? Because they had not yet done so. But, Job had done so. He had spoken worlds of repentance. There is no need to repent unless one has sinned. Job knew of his sin.

I think that Job was reprooved by Elihu and by Jesus, but I don't think reproof is always a sign of sin, but it can be a sign of discipline. Job certainly had to grow in his experience with God and I think that Job grew in harmony with the principles outlined by God. He grew in grace and truth. Job did not sin in his loss of his family, his possessions, his health, under false accusation, or even under correction and reproof. He stayed focused upon God, and when greater light came to him he was able to be humble, abhor himself, and repented of all his sins, just like Jacob and Daniel. DAniel 9:3

I assume you are referencing Daniel's confession of sin. "We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments:  Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land."  9:5-6. 

That is a good try.   Daniel used the word "We" when he said "we have sinned". He was including himself in the prayer for he knew himself sinful and did not want anyone or God to think he was not in need of help. He graciously included himself in the prayer. He was speaking of the church which was Laodicean. I pray this way all the time, even when I have not sinned. We as a people have caused Christ to delay His coming because WE have not done that which we ought to have done. We have sinned in the light of God's grace. This particular prayer is not a prayer of unconfessed sins, but a recognition of our condition as a people.

When we examine Job's repentance, there is no similarity. No "we". Job is not considering the church, but only himself. And God is not talking in general terms when he strongly rebukes Job for his sin. He describes Job's multiple sins. We are not left ignorant of what Job had done. And, it is not a matter of new light about sin. That is not the situation. So, our difference here is as to what Job's problem was and if it was sin. The kind of sin that would reveal a separation from God, not just unknown sin that need not be repented of. If Job had not repented, would Job have been forever lost? That is the question we need to resolve. It is an important issue, because many today have been taught that God winks at their sin. That one remains in a saved condition when they sin. That one need not be re-justified after every sin. Known sin.

As we listen to the words of Job, Elihu, and finally Christ we find that Job's sin was just as Lucifer's sin in heaven. Job had pride in his heart. Job was self-righteous. Job spoke and thought highly of himself. Self-righteous? Is that a sin? Does this sin reveal a separation from God? Self-righteous? This condition is used to describe Pharisees and is spoken of in the Bible with disdain. Could it be that  when one is self-righteous that they have Christ in their hearts? Or is self alive and the Saviour absent? It is interesting that the condition that is described by liberals in the church today when referring to conservatives who beat people over the head with the law is "self-righteous".  The term and sin carries with it a very nasty connotation. 

What are we to conclude? Was Job really self-righteous? And is this a sin that reveals separation from God? Did Job fall? Or did Job pass his test without sin? This is a question that we ought to answer correctly if we are to do right in our own lives and be the example that God is calling us to be. If I manifest self-righteousness today, have I fallen from grace? Do I sin? Or have I been faithful to "hold on to God?"

[Greg Goodchild]

Did Jesus ever accuse Job of sinning? If Job had sinned, at all during the trial initiated by satan, would satan have won his point of contention?

[Richard Myers]

Jesus did tell Job he had sinned. It was a very strong rebuke from both Elihu and Jesus. Both told him he was self-righteous.

Did Satan prove his point? No, not at all. He had told Christ that the reason why Job was perfect was because he had not been tempted to sin.  Job had been tempted. But, the temptations that followed were stronger than ever before. Did he fall when he lost his family and animals? No. Did he sin when his wife told him to curse God? No. Did he sin when he first got sick? No. When did he sin?

Well....when his three friends, I use the word lightly, came to him and told him he had sinned, the real temptations began. Then they told him his character was very bad. Poor Job, lost all, a tempting wife, sick and in pain, tired, and then three church leaders come to him with false doctrine telling him he is sinning! Imagine!  God does not allow us to be tempted beyond what we can bear, but Job did not bear up. Why? Because he took his eyes off of Christ and began to feel sorry for himself. The first indication I see is that instead of trying to help his three friends, he tells them they are miserable comforters. It was true, but this is the beginning of Job looking inward instead of upward. He continues on a downward slide until God sends Elihu to rebuke his selfishness, his self-righteousness.

We have covered this in this thread. But, I will repeat the words of inspiration from Elihu and I will post the Word of God to Job that all may understand that Job sinned.

[Mimi]

In Chapter 32, there is the account of Elihu. The first verse tells us the three men ceased to answer Job because he was righteous in his own eyes. Then in verse 2, we see that Elihu was kindled to wrath with Job because Job justified himself rather than God. Elihu then goes on to state why he is speaking to his elder the way he did. And in Chapter 35 Elihu gets even more pointed. Verse 36 says he is speaking on God's behalf.

THEN, we see God's questions in Chapter 38. What is God saying in Chapter 38? Do we see this string of questions as a rebuke to Job?

[Richard Myers]

Yes, this is the truth, dear sister. We must read the Bible with a clear discernment of what is being said. Superficial reading will not do. It is needful to read in context, so I post this message from Elihu in context. Read it all, Brother Greg. But, I have highlighted the truth regarding Job's sin.

Chapter 32

  32:1   So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he [was] righteous in his own eyes.
  32:2   Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.
  32:3   Also against his three friends was his wrath kindled, because they had found no answer, and [yet] had condemned Job. 
  32:4   Now Elihu had waited till Job had spoken, because they [were] elder than he. 
  32:5   When Elihu saw that [there was] no answer in the mouth of [these] three men, then his wrath was kindled. 
  32:6   And Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite answered and said, I [am] young, and ye [are] very old; wherefore I was afraid, and durst not show you mine opinion. 
  32:7   I said, Days should speak, and multitude of years should teach wisdom. 
  32:8   But [there is] a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding. 
  32:9   Great men are not [always] wise: neither do the aged understand judgment. 
  32:10   Therefore I said, Hearken to me; I also will show mine opinion. 
  32:11   Behold, I waited for your words; I gave ear to your reasons, whilst ye searched out what to say. 
  32:12   Yea, I attended unto you, and, behold, [there was] none of you that convinced Job, [or] that answered his words: 
  32:13   Lest ye should say, We have found out wisdom: God thrusteth him down, not man. 
  32:14   Now he hath not directed [his] words against me: neither will I answer him with your speeches. 
  32:15   They were amazed, they answered no more: they left off speaking. 
  32:16   When I had waited, (for they spake not, but stood still, [and] answered no more;) 
  32:17   [I said], I will answer also my part, I also will show mine opinion. 
  32:18   For I am full of matter, the spirit within me constraineth me. 
  32:19   Behold, my belly [is] as wine [which] hath no vent; it is ready to burst like new bottles. 
  32:20   I will speak, that I may be refreshed: I will open my lips and answer. 
  32:21   Let me not, I pray you, accept any man's person, neither let me give flattering titles unto man. 
  32:22   For I know not to give flattering titles; [in so doing] my maker would soon take me away. 
 
Chapter 33

  33:1   Wherefore, Job, I pray thee, hear my speeches, and hearken to all my words. 
  33:2   Behold, now I have opened my mouth, my tongue hath spoken in my mouth. 
  33:3   My words [shall be of] the uprightness of my heart: and my lips shall utter knowledge clearly. 
  33:4   The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. 
  33:5   If thou canst answer me, set [thy words] in order before me, stand up. 
  33:6   Behold, I [am] according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay. 
  33:7   Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee. 
  33:8   Surely thou hast spoken in mine hearing, and I have heard the voice of [thy] words, [saying], 
  33:9   I am clean without transgression, I [am] innocent; neither [is there] iniquity in me. 
  33:10   Behold, he findeth occasions against me, he counteth me for his enemy, 
  33:11   He putteth my feet in the stocks, he marketh all my paths. 
  33:12   Behold, [in] this thou art not just: I will answer thee, that God is greater than man. 
  33:13   Why dost thou strive against him? for he giveth not account of any of his matters. 
  33:14   For God speaketh once, yea twice, [yet man] perceiveth it not. 
  33:15   In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed; 
  33:16   Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction, 
  33:17   That he may withdraw man [from his] purpose, and hide pride from man. 
  33:18   He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword. 
  33:19   He is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong [pain]: 
  33:20   So that his life abhorreth bread, and his soul dainty meat. 
  33:21   His flesh is consumed away, that it cannot be seen; and his bones [that] were not seen stick out. 
  33:22   Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers. 
  33:23   If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to show unto man his uprightness: 
  33:24   Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom. 
  33:25   His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth: 
  33:26   He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness. 
  33:27   He looketh upon men, and [if any] say, I have sinned, and perverted [that which was] right, and it profited me not; 
  33:28   He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light. 
  33:29   Lo, all these [things] worketh God oftentimes with man, 
  33:30   To bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living. 
  33:31   Mark well, O Job, hearken unto me: hold thy peace, and I will speak. 
  33:32   If thou hast any thing to say, answer me: speak, for I desire to justify thee. 
  33:33   If not, hearken unto me: hold thy peace, and I shall teach thee wisdom. 
 
Chapter 34

  34:1   Furthermore Elihu answered and said, 
  34:2   Hear my words, O ye wise [men]; and give ear unto me, ye that have knowledge. 
  34:3   For the ear trieth words, as the mouth tasteth meat. 
  34:4   Let us choose to us judgment: let us know among ourselves what [is] good. 
  34:5   For Job hath said, I am righteous: and God hath taken away my judgment. 
  34:6   Should I lie against my right? my wound [is] incurable without transgression. 
  34:7   What man [is] like Job, [who] drinketh up scorning like water? 
  34:8   Which goeth in company with the workers of iniquity, and walketh with wicked men. 
  34:9   For he hath said, It profiteth a man nothing that he should delight himself with God. 
  34:10   Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, [that he should do] wickedness; and [from] the Almighty, [that he should commit] iniquity. 
  34:11   For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to [his] ways. 
  34:12   Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment. 
  34:13   Who hath given him a charge over the earth? or who hath disposed the whole world? 
  34:14   If he set his heart upon man, [if] he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; 
  34:15   All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. 
  34:16   If now [thou hast] understanding, hear this: hearken to the voice of my words. 
  34:17   Shall even he that hateth right govern? and wilt thou condemn him that is most just? 
  34:18   [Is it fit] to say to a king, [Thou art] wicked? [and] to princes, [Ye are] ungodly? 
  34:19   [How much less to him] that accepteth not the persons of princes, nor regardeth the rich more than the poor? for they all [are] the work of his hands. 
  34:20   In a moment shall they die, and the people shall be troubled at midnight, and pass away: and the mighty shall be taken away without hand. 
  34:21   For his eyes [are] upon the ways of man, and he seeth all his goings. 
  34:22   [There is] no darkness, nor shadow of death, where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves. 
  34:23   For he will not lay upon man more [than right]; that he should enter into judgment with God. 
  34:24   He shall break in pieces mighty men without number, and set others in their stead. 
  34:25   Therefore he knoweth their works, and he overturneth [them] in the night, so that they are destroyed. 
  34:26   He striketh them as wicked men in the open sight of others; 
  34:27   Because they turned back from him, and would not consider any of his ways: 
  34:28   So that they cause the cry of the poor to come unto him, and he heareth the cry of the afflicted. 
  34:29   When he giveth quietness, who then can make trouble? and when he hideth [his] face, who then can behold him? whether [it be done] against a nation, or against a man only: 
  34:30   That the hypocrite reign not, lest the people be ensnared. 
  34:31   Surely it is meet to be said unto God, I have borne [chastisement], I will not offend [any more]: 
  34:32   [That which] I see not teach thou me: if I have done iniquity, I will do no more. 
  34:33   [Should it be] according to thy mind? he will recompense it, whether thou refuse, or whether thou choose; and not I: therefore speak what thou knowest. 
  34:34   Let men of understanding tell me, and let a wise man hearken unto me. 
  34:35   Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words [were] without wisdom. 
  34:36   My desire [is that] Job may be tried unto the end because of [his] answers for wicked men. 
  34:37   For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth [his hands] among us, and multiplieth his words against God. 
 
Chapter 35

  35:1   Elihu spake moreover, and said, 
  35:2   Thinkest thou this to be right, [that] thou saidst, My righteousness [is] more than God's? 
  35:3   For thou saidst, What advantage will it be unto thee? [and], What profit shall I have, [if I be cleansed] from my sin? 
  35:4   I will answer thee, and thy companions with thee. 
  35:5   Look unto the heavens, and see; and behold the clouds [which] are higher than thou. 
  35:6   If thou sinnest, what doest thou against him? or [if] thy transgressions be multiplied, what doest thou unto him? 
  35:7   If thou be righteous, what givest thou him? or what receiveth he of thine hand? 
  35:8   Thy wickedness [may hurt] a man as thou [art]; and thy righteousness [may profit] the son of man. 
  35:9   By reason of the multitude of oppressions they make [the oppressed] to cry: they cry out by reason of the arm of the mighty. 
  35:10   But none saith, Where [is] God my maker, who giveth songs in the night; 
  35:11   Who teacheth us more than the beasts of the earth, and maketh us wiser than the fowls of heaven? 
  35:12   There they cry, but none giveth answer, because of the pride of evil men. 
  35:13   Surely God will not hear vanity, neither will the Almighty regard it. 
  35:14   Although thou sayest thou shalt not see him, [yet] judgment [is] before him; therefore trust thou in him. 
  35:15   But now, because [it is] not [so], he hath visited in his anger; yet he knoweth [it] not in great extremity: 
  35:16   Therefore doth Job open his mouth in vain; he multiplieth words without knowledge. 
 
Chapter 36

  36:1   Elihu also proceeded, and said, 
  36:2   Suffer me a little, and I will show thee that [I have] yet to speak on God's behalf. 
  36:3   I will fetch my knowledge from afar, and will ascribe righteousness to my Maker. 
  36:4   For truly my words [shall] not [be] false: he that is perfect in knowledge [is] with thee. 
  36:5   Behold, God [is] mighty, and despiseth not [any: he is] mighty in strength [and] wisdom. 
  36:6   He preserveth not the life of the wicked: but giveth right to the poor. 
  36:7   He withdraweth not his eyes from the righteous: but with kings [are they] on the throne; yea, he doth establish them for ever, and they are exalted. 

[Greg Goodchild]

Jesus did tell Job he had sinned. It was a very strong rebuke from both Elihu and Jesus. Both told him he was self-righteous.

Did Satan prove his point? No, not at all. He had told Christ that the reason why Job was perfect was because he had not been tempted to sin.  Job had been tempted. But, the temptations that followed were stronger than ever before. Did he fall when he lost his family and animals? No. Did he sin when his wife told him to curse God? No. Did he sin when he first got sick? No. When did he sin?

Well....when his three friends, I use the word lightly, came to him and told him he had sinned, the real temptations began. Then they told him his character was very bad. Poor Job, lost all, a tempting wife, sick and in pain, tired, and then three church leaders come to him with false doctrine telling him he is sinning! Imagine!  God does not allow us to be tempted beyond what we can bear, but Job did not bear up. Why? Because he took his eyes off of Christ and began to feel sorry for himself. The first indication I see is that instead of trying to help his three friends, he tells them they are miserable comforters. It was true, but this is the beginning of Job looking inward instead of upward. He continues on a downward slide until God sends Elihu to rebuke his selfishness, his self-righteousness.

We have covered this in this thread. But, I will repeat the words of inspiration from Elihu and I will post the Word of God to Job that all may understand that Job sinned.

Wasn't it satan's objective to get Job to sin - to seperate himself from God? If Job sinned did that not prove satan's point - that if you put enough pressure on someone they will sin? If your perspective is correct then satan won - because Job could have depended upon Jesus for strength to not sin and yet he sinned. Is that correct?

[Greg Goodchild]

This discussion stimulated me to investigate to see what Jesus has said about Job through His messenger. Here are a few quotes for us to ponder.

 9. Job's Friends Misrepresented God.--There is wickedness in our world, but all the suffering is not the result of a perverted course of life. Job is brought distinctly before us as a man whom the Lord allowed Satan to afflict. The enemy stripped him of all he possessed; his family ties were broken; his children were taken from him. For a time his body was covered with loathsome sores, and he suffered greatly. His friends came to comfort him, but they tried to make him see that he was responsible, by his sinful course, for his afflictions. But he defended himself, and denied the charge, declaring, Miserable comforters are ye all. By seeking to make him guilty before God, and deserving of His punishment, they brought a grievous test upon him, and represented God in a false light; but Job did not swerve from his loyalty, and God rewarded His faithful servant (MS 22, 1898).

  "Job endured the test; he proved true to God. And after his trial, his blessings were manifold. The prosperity that attended the closing years of his life gave the enemy no opportunity to exult over the former misfortunes of God's faithful servant. {RH, August 16, 1906 par. 10}

"When he hath tried me," he said, "I shall come forth as gold." So it came to pass. By his patient endurance he vindicated his own character, and thus the character of Him whose representative he was. . . . The Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before. . . . So the Lord blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning. {SD 95.8}

  I was shown that my husband's course has not been perfect. He has erred sometimes in murmuring and in giving too severe reproof. But from what I have seen, he has not been so greatly at fault in this respect as many have supposed and as I have sometimes feared. Job was not understood by his friends. He flings back upon them their reproaches. He shows them that if they are defending God by avowing their faith in Him and their consciousness of sin, he has a more deep and thorough knowledge of it than they ever had. "Miserable comforters are ye all," is the answer he makes to their criticisms and censures. "I also," says Job, "could speak as ye do: if your soul were in my soul's stead, I could heap up words against you, and shake mine head at you." But he declares that he would not do this. "I," he says, "would strengthen you with my mouth, and the moving of my lips should assuage your grief."
{3T 508.1}

It appears that the Lord of the IJ does not see Job as having rebelled against Him, so should we?

[Richard Myers]

Wasn't it satan's objective to get Job to sin - to seperate himself from God? If Job sinned did that not prove satan's point - that if you put enough pressure on someone they will sin? If your perspective is correct then satan won - because Job could have depended upon Jesus for strength to not sin and yet he sinned. Is that correct?

Well, I see your point, but I look at it from a different point of view. While I agree that Satan was successful in getting Job to sin, and won the battle, there is a larger issue. Satan lost the war. In the IJ, it will be seen that Job did in fact sin, but he repented and will be in heaven.

If we stand back and look at the overall picture, we are encouraged. Look at what Satan was allowed to do to Job!!  When we say Job sinned, we say it with great awe. Would you like to take Job's place today? Job is there for us to see how much a man can take. There is no excuse for sin, but we all would like to excuse Job because of the great trial he went through. But, the reality is that Job fell. Would I fall, would you fall under similar circumstances? How strong is our faith?

So, I look at the lesson in Job and say, Job did a good job in trusting in God, but when he took his eyes off of Jesus, he fell. But, like Moses sin in striking the Rock, he repented. Like David's sin and repentance, we see Job doing the same. Do we excuse Moses sin? No. We face the reality that Moses lost out on being translated because of his sin. He brought reproach upon God. But, Moses is in heaven today. He was forgiven because he repented. Job repented. We are happy for Job. It is an important lesson to learn that we must repent if we are to walk with our Lord. We must not make excuses for sin. We must hear that still small voice just as Eliju and Job did.  Moses was faithful and Job was faithful. But, both sinned because they allowed their minds to drift away from Christ. There is no power to resist sin when we cease to hold on to the only power that can keep us. God's grace when allowed into the heart, when kept in the heart will be our protection against both small and large sins. We must depend upon Christ wholly moment by moment, day by day.

[Richard Myers]

This discussion stimulated me to investigate to see what Jesus has said about Job through His messenger. Here are a few quotes for us to ponder.

 9. Job's Friends Misrepresented God.--There is wickedness in our world, but all the suffering is not the result of a perverted course of life. Job is brought distinctly before us as a man whom the Lord allowed Satan to afflict. The enemy stripped him of all he possessed; his family ties were broken; his children were taken from him. For a time his body was covered with loathsome sores, and he suffered greatly. His friends came to comfort him, but they tried to make him see that he was responsible, by his sinful course, for his afflictions. But he defended himself, and denied the charge, declaring, Miserable comforters are ye all. By seeking to make him guilty before God, and deserving of His punishment, they brought a grievous test upon him, and represented God in a false light; but Job did not swerve from his loyalty, and God rewarded His faithful servant (MS 22, 1898).

  "Job endured the test; he proved true to God. And after his trial, his blessings were manifold. The prosperity that attended the closing years of his life gave the enemy no opportunity to exult over the former misfortunes of God's faithful servant. {RH, August 16, 1906 par. 10}

"When he hath tried me," he said, "I shall come forth as gold." So it came to pass. By his patient endurance he vindicated his own character, and thus the character of Him whose representative he was. . . . The Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before. . . . So the Lord blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning. {SD 95.8}

  I was shown that my husband's course has not been perfect. He has erred sometimes in murmuring and in giving too severe reproof. But from what I have seen, he has not been so greatly at fault in this respect as many have supposed and as I have sometimes feared. Job was not understood by his friends. He flings back upon them their reproaches. He shows them that if they are defending God by avowing their faith in Him and their consciousness of sin, he has a more deep and thorough knowledge of it than they ever had. "Miserable comforters are ye all," is the answer he makes to their criticisms and censures. "I also," says Job, "could speak as ye do: if your soul were in my soul's stead, I could heap up words against you, and shake mine head at you." But he declares that he would not do this. "I," he says, "would strengthen you with my mouth, and the moving of my lips should assuage your grief."
{3T 508.1}
It appears that the Lord of the IJ does not see Job as having rebelled against Him, so should we?

Brother Greg, you will have to reconcile these passages with the Word of God which clearly shows Job sinned.  I will now post what God said about Job and we can discuss how you have misunderstood such rebuke as not being directed at sin.

[Richard Myers]

  38:1   Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 
  38:2   Who [is] this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

It has always bothered me that so many neglect to see themselves as does God when they speak things, attributing them to God when they are not His Words. Why would we not feel ashamed of darkening God's counsel with our words? Why are we not more careful before we say things that we are not sure of? Do we not realize how offended God is? How much He cares about what we say about Him and His Word? How we damage His character in the eyes of others when we say things that are not true, no matter how ignorant we are, or how sincere we are. This passage from the Bible illustrates how God feels about being misrepresented by mere mortal man. It is not a little thing to speak things that are not true, especially if one is doing it to lift oneself up as Job was doing. Yes?

[Richard Myers]

Why did God take two whole chapters to ask Job questions about the world and God's power and knowledge? He took the time to make sure Job understood his foolishness. How bad was Job's sin? What exactly was his sin from God's point of view? Besides darkening God's Word, we begin with the next rebuke coming directly from God.

40:1   Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said, 
40:2   Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct [him]? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

God said that Job was contending with God, instructing God, and reproving God. This is just what Elihu had been inspired to say to Job also. Who would dare do such things? Only one who is separated from God would dare to approach God in that manner. Shall I do this and be thought to not be sinning?  I don't think so. Brother Greg, do you dare instruct God? Do you contend with God? Do you dare reprove God? And if you did, would you say it was not sin? These are not my words, but they are directly from God. I do not understand why anyone would want to excuse Job for having done these things to God. Why resist calling this sin?

[Greg Goodchild]

This discussion stimulated me to investigate to see what Jesus has said about Job through His messenger. Here are a few quotes for us to ponder.

 9. Job's Friends Misrepresented God.--There is wickedness in our world, but all the suffering is not the result of a perverted course of life. Job is brought distinctly before us as a man whom the Lord allowed Satan to afflict. The enemy stripped him of all he possessed; his family ties were broken; his children were taken from him. For a time his body was covered with loathsome sores, and he suffered greatly. His friends came to comfort him, but they tried to make him see that he was responsible, by his sinful course, for his afflictions. But he defended himself, and denied the charge, declaring, Miserable comforters are ye all. By seeking to make him guilty before God, and deserving of His punishment, they brought a grievous test upon him, and represented God in a false light; but Job did not swerve from his loyalty, and God rewarded His faithful servant (MS 22, 1898).

  "Job endured the test; he proved true to God. And after his trial, his blessings were manifold. The prosperity that attended the closing years of his life gave the enemy no opportunity to exult over the former misfortunes of God's faithful servant. {RH, August 16, 1906 par. 10}

"When he hath tried me," he said, "I shall come forth as gold." So it came to pass. By his patient endurance he vindicated his own character, and thus the character of Him whose representative he was. . . . The Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before. . . . So the Lord blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning. {SD 95.8}

  I was shown that my husband's course has not been perfect. He has erred sometimes in murmuring and in giving too severe reproof. But from what I have seen, he has not been so greatly at fault in this respect as many have supposed and as I have sometimes feared. Job was not understood by his friends. He flings back upon them their reproaches. He shows them that if they are defending God by avowing their faith in Him and their consciousness of sin, he has a more deep and thorough knowledge of it than they ever had. "Miserable comforters are ye all," is the answer he makes to their criticisms and censures. "I also," says Job, "could speak as ye do: if your soul were in my soul's stead, I could heap up words against you, and shake mine head at you." But he declares that he would not do this. "I," he says, "would strengthen you with my mouth, and the moving of my lips should assuage your grief."
{3T 508.1}
It appears that the Lord of the IJ does not see Job as having rebelled against Him, so should we?

Brother Greg, you will have to reconcile these passages with the Word of God which clearly shows Job sinned.  I will now post what God said about Job and we can discuss how you have misunderstood such rebuke as not being directed at sin.

Brother Richard:
I have reconciled these passages with the Word of God. You believe Job sinned, I don't. I am content.

[Greg Goodchild]

Why did God take two whole chapters to ask Job questions about the world and God's power and knowledge?
BG: I think He did it to instruct and correct Job because Job did not understand the ways of God completely.

 He took the time to make sure Job understood his foolishness.
BG: I agree.

How bad was Job's sin?
BG: You seem to lable correction as a reaction to sin. I don't see it that way.

 What exactly was his sin from God's point of view? Besides darkening God's Word, we begin with the next rebuke coming directly from God.

40:1   Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said, 
40:2   Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct [him]? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

God said that Job was contending with God, instructing God, and reproving God. This is just what Elihu had been inspired to say to Job also. Who would dare do such things?
BG: One who trusted God and who was confident enough in His relationship to say what was on his mind. This is not sin in a relationship with God.

 Only one who is separated from God would dare to approach God in that manner.
BG: One who was in close relationship with God and was not sinning.

 Shall I do this and be thought to not be sinning?  I don't think so.
BG: That would depend upon your relationship with God.

 Brother Greg, do you dare instruct God?
BG: It is clear to me that I can not instruct God. I want to be instructed. I am instructed when He reproves me and chastens me. But reproof and chastening do not mean sin.

 Do you contend with God?
BG: I tell Him what I think about a situation.

 Do you dare reprove God?
BG: I hope not.

 And if you did, would you say it was not sin?
BG: If I reproved God and was still open to instruction I would say it is not sin. My case in point here would be Moses in Numbers 11. Moses complained that God was trying to killing him and that he wanted to commit suicide over all of the burdens that God had put on him, yet God did not account this as sin on Moses part.


These are not my words, but they are directly from God. I do not understand why anyone would want to excuse Job for having done these things to God. Why resist calling this sin?
BG: Because God does not call it sin, and neither does God's messenger. Therefore, neither do I.

[Richard Myers]

Well, I must say our definition of sin is quite different. I never have instructed God, reproved God, or contended with God. To me, this is a sure sign of one who is not abiding in Christ. But, we have more that will help us see that Job is not dead to self. That Job is working against God, not giving honor and glory to God, but taking it to himself just as Elihu said.

  40:6   Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 
  40:7   Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. 
  40:8   Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous? 

Brother Greg, is this a definite statement from God as to the condition of Job's heart?