Present Truth in the Book of Job

[Richard Myers]

There are many good lessons in the Book of Job, but one is very important in this our day. Job is the book  for those who are going through the testing time, who are being perfected or "polished" to shine with the similtude of a divine palace.

It is comforting to know that God allows our suffering as a means of bringing us closer to Himself. Much honor and glory comes to Jesus as we submit to this refining process.

There are some situations that are especially painful and are very difficult to deal with. These we see in the Book of Job. We can consider Job a representation of those who live at the end of time and who will perfectly reflect the character of God. They like Job will be sorely tried, but will come forth as "gold tried in the fire."

We must take care as we study the Book of Job. We must, as always, be open to the leading of the Spirit that we not rest in what we have been told the book says. We must study for ourselves that we will not be deceived. Sometimes we miss what God would have us see because we do not move beyond what we already know. This can leave us with assumptions that can be quite wrong. Let us take all of the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy into consideration and not just portions of it as we seek to make a correct interpretation of the verses in this most important Book.

Heavenly Father, bless us as we seek your face and your wisdom in this study. Give us your Holy Spirit that we might hear your voice speaking to us through our Bibles, we pray in the precious name of Jesus, amen.

[Richard Myers]

God has a church, a people that He is preparing to receive Jesus at His second coming. This church is to reflect His character, they are to be a witness for and of Him. His people will speak of Him and for Him and will learn to take great care in what they say, for they speak for God. Such a responsibility! Are we prepared to speak for God? Do we choose our words wisely and are we  seeking the leading of the Holy Spirit?

Let me begin this topic by saying that I have made mistakes and have said things that God did not say. We are all erring humans and we ought to remember this. Does this lessen our responsibilty to God? No. We are accountable for what we say. Souls will be lost if we are not careful. We will mislead others and some will not be able to recover.

God has chosen only a portion of the life of Job to reveal to us. Why? What is the purpose of revealing what has been written? The first two chapters may be divided from the next forty chapters. There is a marked change in the book starting with chatpter three. In the first two chapters are many important lessons that we shall examine, but the great lesson in this book begins with chapter three and continues through chapter 42.

Before I begin sharing, is there anyone who would care to state what they believe the all important lesson is in these forty chapters?

In His love and grace,    Richard

[M.A. Crawford]

"...We are accountable for what we say. Souls will be lost if we are not careful. We will mislead others and some will not be able to recover...."

This is why it so very, very important, ESPECIALLY IN THESE LAST DAYS, for those desirous of being saved to place their complete confidence and trust in the Word of God, and His Word ONLY. There are so many "voices in the wind" and so many false shepherds all professing to be "of Christ" until the Scriptures are our ONLY SAFEGUARD against the error and deceit that have entered into the Seventh-day Adventist Church.  

There is nothing wrong with reading the religious material of others as long as the ideas and statements presented STRICTLY ADHERE TO the principles of salvation as presented in Scripture. All too often many waste so much time engaging in words, theological discussions, discourses, and a "Pollyanna" kind of attitude which attempt to depict everything as being all right, when everything is not all right.  

We need to pray, and pray hard, to have like Job UNWAVERING FAITH in God that will withstand any assault thrown at it by the enemy of souls. Our salvation must be based upon the SOLID ROCK, Jesus Christ, and not upon the opinions of men (and women), because as someone has said, God is more interested "IN OUR WALK than He is in our talk!"

M.A.    

[Bev]

Richard
In answer to your question. i believe Job's testimony  was given for us in the last days to know some very important things.

One is that God calls Satan attention to his servant Job because He knew that Job could stand the test of all time. He knew that Jobe would vindicate His character and name,a nd he was not only professing a name or truth but lived it. This is like the 144 000, whom God can afford to leave without a medisator because he knows they could stand the test of all time and vindicate his name and character, just like His servant Job.

I think the other significant thing about Job's testimony is the reposnse of those close to him. It is going to be just like that for those who stand for God in the end. They will not find comfort or support from close relationships but will have to rely totally on what they believe, the faith of Jesus in them to trust God though being slain. Of course there is the added lesson or waning that we will lose all earhtly possessions, but like Job there is a better tomorrow a light at the end of the tunnel.

So the other thing I see, is that we are being encouraged through Job's testimony to believe in that good outcome for those who endure to the end. There are many precious lessons in Job for us and we would do well to heed them if we intend on being among the 144,000, that people who will be used to vindicate God.
bev

[WendyForsyth]

Bev,

That was a very wonderful post. A very pertinent application. Thank you.

Wendy
-----------------
Through His Merits Alone!!!

[Richard Myers]

Amen, brother and sisters! Our trust must be in Jesus and His Word. We must study for ourselves. So....while I am presenting that which I have been shown, it is for each that reads to pray and study the message and see if it is so. Do not accept it without study and do not reject it without study and prayer.

The first lesson that I received from the book was in the first verse of of the first chapter. "There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil."  

There are many today who call themselves Seventh-day Adventists that do not agree with this verse. They have listened to the "evangelical" teachings so long that they cannot see that God's grace can empower sinful man to keep the commandments of God. They do not believe that sinful man can become a partaker of the "divine nature." They do not believe that Jesus came in the "likeness of sinful flesh" and overcame as we must overcome. They do not believe that our character must be perfected here on this earth at this time in order to live with Jesus for eternity.

The first chapter of the book Ministry of Healing begins with this--"Our Lord Jesus Christ came to this world as the unwearied servant of man's necessity. He 'took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses,' that He might minister to every need fo humanity. Matt 8:17. The burden of disease and wretchedness and sin He came to remove. It was His mission to bring to men complete restoration; He came to give them health and peace and perfection of character."

[James Saptenno]

Brother Richard.

A very good topic which will give us a great blessing in studying it.

I want to comment on your statement for all of us to study.

Quote.
The first lesson that I received from the book was in the first verse of of the first chapter. "There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil."
There are many today who call themselves Seventh-day Adventists that do not agree with this verse. They have listened to the "evangelical" teachings so long that they cannot see that God's grace can empower sinful man to keep the commandments of God. They do not believe that sinful man can become a partaker of the "divine nature." They do not believe that Jesus came in the "likeness of sinful flesh" and overcame as we must overcome. They do not believe that our character must be perfected here on this earth at this time in order to live with Jesus for eternity.
Unquote.

Romans 3:10,12 “ As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one. There is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.”

Did Paul include Job or not when he wrote this? I am sure he did! As he was born later and read also the book of Job.

Job was an upright and perfect man as far as the claims of the letter of the law. But to the claims of the spirit of the law (agape love), Job falls short and remain a sinner.

Did Christ follow His own will or His Father’s will? John 5:30: “ I can of mine own self do nothing; as I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just; because I seek not My own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent Me.”

Christ has taken our sinful flesh, that means the law of sin is in his flesh (Hebrew 2:14). But did He ever sin? No! How come? Because He did not follow His own will, but His Father’s will. This is the example He gave to us, that we might not follow our own will, but His will. That is, if we abide “in Him” by faith, the Spirit will led our mind and we will produced fruits of the Spirit, but if we follow our own will, we will only produce works of the flesh.

If Christ used His deity to overcome the law of sin in His members, then He will not be our Savior, because we of our own can not do that. But Christ depended fully on His Father through faith and abode in His Father as His Father in Him. John 14:10,11: “ Believest thou not that I am in the father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak unto you I speak not of My self: but the Father that dwelleth in Me, He doeth THE WORKS. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me.”

The Father in Christ that do the will and the works, not he himself. That what made Christ overcome. And that what He want from us in following Him. Believe in Him and let Him do the will and the works through His Spirit that dwell in us because we abide “in Him” by faith, and that what made us overcome.

It is not “I” with the Spirit that overcome, but the Spirit in me that overcome. Not God grace that empowers sinful man to keep the law, but the Spirit in us that keep the law through us, we produced fruits of the Spirit. “I’ must disappear completely so that the Spirit can work in us.

In His love

James S.

[James Saptenno]

Happy Sabbath.

Are we aware that Romans 8:4  “the righteousness of the law” could really be fulfilled in us who walk after the Spirit? As the fruit of the Spirit is in harmony with the law (Galatians 5:22,23), that means the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in a believer’s life who abide in Christ by faith. This is a life led by faith, led by the Spirit, not by “me”, because “I” was crucified with Christ; nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me” (Galatians 2:20).

“But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your FRUIT unto holiness, and the end everlasting life” (Romans 6:22).

Is there anything of works? Anything of “I”? Nothing! It is all by faith and fruit of faith.

“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing; for to will is present with me; but HOW to perform that which is good I FIND NOT”
“I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me”
“This law is in my members, warring against THE LAW OF MY MIND, and bringing me into captivity to THE LAW OF SIN which is in my members” (Romans 7:18,21,23).

How then “I” can produce good deeds? How can “I” keep the law? How can “I” live in harmony with God’s law? I can do nothing! I can only produce works of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21).

“O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! For THE LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS hath made me free from THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH (in my members). And by walking after the Spirit, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in me (Romans 7:24,24; 8:2,4). I bear fruit of the Spirit, as the Spirit of Jesus who led my life, who controls my mind, who did the will and the doing (Philippians 2:13), overriding the law of sin in my members.

Perfection we got is the result of faith, the fruit of faith, the fruit of salvation. It is not a single iota from our works or “I” did it. The formulae is: we abide “in Christ” by faith, and we bear fruit of the Spirit as the result of the work of the Spirit in us who did the will and the doing through us. If “I” surfaced, I hinder the work of the Spirit, as again I take over the control of my mind which soon overriden by the law of sin in my members and evil what I produced.

Christ imputed righteousness is the root of our salvation, Christ imparted righteousness is the fruit of our salvation. It is all of faith, nothing of “I” nothing of works! That is why, justification is only by faith. And as faith is also a gift, then we have really nothing to contribute. What we have is only a will to choose and to decide. Remember that “to will is present with me (which delight in the law of God after the inward man) but how to perform it which I find not! But now “in Christ” I found the “how” to perform what I will which is to do good. This “how” is by the power of the Spirit of Jesus Christ who dwells in me as I abide “in Him” by faith. He takes over my will (I surrendered it to Him), the willing and the doing is now from God.

May God bless us.

In His love

James S.

[Richard Myers]

Brother James, I think we are in harmony in our thoughts, but our words are a little different.  I think I understand what you are saying.  My difficulty is that we are to use the words as they are given in the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy. "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me."  Phillipians 4:13. This I have been doing. I have been careful all along to say that it is Jesus in us that gives the power to our effort. Without Jesus in the heart we cannot resist the smallest temptation.

Also, your interpretation of a few verses in Romans I believe to be incorrect.  But,  I do not disagree with what I think you are saying in regards to the good in us is Christ. There is more to this and we shall get into this later.  Right now we are on the particular point that the devil has been successful at bringing into the church, that man cannot keep the commandments. That is to say, man can be saved while sinning. I don't think this is what you are saying.

So,  Job 1:1 is saying that Job has Jesus in his heart and is keeping the commandments of God. As you and I agree, it is Christ in Job that is giving power to the effort. If Jesus is not in the heart, we would have the Romans seven experience. We understand the need to obey, but cannot in and of ourselves. We need the Spirit of God to control our mind. Then we will be able to do that which we want to do. Not I, but Christ in me.  

Richard

[James Saptenno]

Brother Richard.

I think I understand you too. But I believe that we can not keep the law of God. And that will be the real accusation from Satan based on the real fact. But as justification is of God based on grace that I received by faith (Philippians 3:9), I have not to worry for my works of law, as I can never keep it because the weakness of my flesh (Romans 8:3), but since “ now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe; for there is no difference” (Romans 3:21,22), then I see no reason to keep the law to gain righteousness or qualify me for heaven, that will bring me only back again under the law and stand guilty again before God (Romans 3:19).

What I need is to be “in Christ” by faith, just then can He works in me through The Holy Spirit “both to will and to do of His good pleasure” (Philippians 2:13), and I will bear fruit of the Spirit which no law is against it (Galatians 5:22,23).

For the law, I can put it on it real function, which is “to know sin” (Romans 3:20; 7:7).

“I do not frustrate the grace of God; for if righteousness come by the law (not by grace through faith), then Christ is dead in vain” (Galatians 2:21). I will not that “ Christ become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law (keeping the law to please God, to gain righteousness or qualification for heaven); ye are fallen from grace” (Galatians 5:4).

Faith is to received what Christ has done for me through His redemption works, and by that I will be put “in Him” and His Spirit will works in me “to do His will and His works”.

If I try to keep the law, I will work against the Spirit, because keeping the law is the works of the Spirit in me as I were rooted in Christ by faith. It is not my responsibility any longer. By believing that keeping the law is our responsibility and giving us a kind of credit before God, we make our self an “ unbeliever ”, because we do not believe in the complete finished works of salvation done by Christ for us. “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth NOT the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth in him” (John 3:36).

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1). At judgment day, Christ will stand the trial in our behalf, we were hidden “in Him”, and all His righteousness will be us. His imputed righteousness made us “sinners” just and holy, qualify us for heaven and eternal life. It is all because of “faith”, not of works, so there will be nothing to boast (Romans 3:27) except on faith. But they that not believe this, and try to keep the law, will stand the trial alone, “you are severed from Christ, you who seek righteousness by the law”.

Christ imparted righteousness is what the Spirit works in us His will and His doing, we have this because we are rooted in Christ by faith (John 15:1-5). But this did not save us, this is the fruit of our salvation. The Holy Spirit is not a co-redeemer, He does not compete Christ, He just work when some one believe in the complete and finished work of salvation done by Christ and rooted in Him by faith.

In His love

James S.

[Richard Myers]

Brother James, we are very close, but the but makes me think there is still a difference.

You say "But I believe that we can not keep the law of God."  Every quote you have stated in the last post I agree with and have said nothing to undo them. We are not saved by our works. You do not have to quote these passages. I have never suggested this. I have said over and over that the keeping of the law is the result of our saved condition. "there is therefor now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Walking after the Spirit is the keeping of the law.

The character of all who profess to love Jesus will be compared to the Ten Commandments in the judgment that is now under way. Those who truly love Jesus will manifest their faith in Him by their works (keeping the law).  "Faith without works is dead." Profession means nothing to God. He wants the whole heart, then we become partakers of the divine nature. He causes us to keep the law.  

In His love and grace,   Richard

[Allan F]

I hope this will give light to our topic  

"Good works do not purchase the love of God, but they reveal that we possess that love. If we surrender the will to God, we shall not work in order to earn God's love. His love as a free gift will be received into the soul, and from love to Him we shall delight to obey His commandments.

There are only two classes in the world today, and only two classes will be recognized in the judgement - those who violate God's law and those who obey it. Christ gives the test by which to prove our loyalty or disloyalty. "If ye love Me", He says, "keep My commandments... He that hath My commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me. And he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him... He that loveth Me not keepeth not My sayings; and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent Me." "If ye keep My commandments, ye shall abide in My love; even as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love" -John 14:15-24; 15:10.
(COL 282-283)

Allan F

[Richard Myers]

We see the need to begin with the first verse in the Book of Job. It is supported with verse 8; God again says of Job, "there is none like him in the earth, a perfect an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil..."  For those that believe Romans 7 is the Christian experience, they have to ignore much of the Bible and this verse.

The second important lesson is seen in the intercessory prayer of a father for his children. Job "rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all...It may be that my sons have sinned..." Job did not know if his children had sinned, but he saw it as his privilege to pray for their salvation. Do you think his children will be in heaven?

The third lesson is very important and reveals that God is in control of all that happens in this world and the next. He does not cause all to happen, but there is nothing that happens that He does  not allow to happen. The charge against God that He does evil is absurd. Here in the first two chapters of Job we see the truth. Job did not understand that Satan was the one who had caused his problems, but it was indeed the case.

It is seen that Satan cannot do as he pleases, but is limited to what God allows. "And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand." Job 1:12

Richard

[Richard Myers]

God makes a profound statement at the end of chapter one: "In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly."  Let me ask all a question now. Does this mean that Job would never sin in the future, or does this statement refer to that which happened in chapter one only?

Richard

[M.A. Crawford]

My understanding of the expression "In all this Job sinned not...." is that the Bible is referring to all of the terribly tragic occurrences that took place in verses 14 through 19 of Chapter one, and not necessarily that Job would never sin in the future.

M.A.

[Richard Myers]

Amen, Brother Crawford. Yet, it is sad that many will refer to this passage when discussing Job's experience in the rest of the book.

Richard

[James Saptenno]

Quote:
I have said over and over that the keeping of the law is the result of our saved condition. "there is therefor now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Walking after the Spirit is the keeping of the law.
The character of all who profess to love Jesus will be compared to the Ten Commandments in the judgment that is now under way. Those who truly love Jesus will manifest their faith in Him by their works (keeping the law). "Faith without works is dead." Profession means nothing to God. He wants the whole heart, then we become partakers of the divine nature. He causes us to keep the law.

In His love and grace, Richard

= = = = = = = = = = = = = =

I just want to emphasize that we can not keep the law (spiritual demands), and that make us sinner and forever fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). The law not only demands obedience as to the letter but most important is it spiritual demands; agape love! No one will have a love, as Christ loves us! A love that is not self-seeking! And if God did not do something, all will be lost. That what Paul means in Romans 8:3,4 that the (spiritual) demands of the law could not be fulfilled in us by performance due to the weakness of the flesh, but God has done it for us (as a gift or grace) through Jesus Christ for all that believe and walk after the Spirit. Thus, righteousness is not based on performance, but on grace received by faith ((Philippians 3:9; Romans 3:21-24; Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8,9).

Our own righteousness is as filthy rags, and that only could not qualify us for heaven. But we are righteous, holy, just, and perfect only because we are “in Christ” by faith, even though we are “filthy”, sinner and imperfect.

If "there is therefor now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Walking after the Spirit is the keeping of the law.
Then salvation must be based on performance, and if so is the case, NO ONE WILL BE SAVED!

But I agree with Paul, who says: “ And be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is of God by faith.” – Philippians 3:9.

At the judgment day, for all who are “in Christ” by faith will face no condemnation, as it is Christ who stand the trial on their behalves, they are hidden in Him. But the 10 Commandments will judge all other Christians who keep the law to qualify them for heaven and eternity. “Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God” – Romans 3:19.

Love and faith is fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5;22,23), manifested in a believer because he is in Christ by his faith (John 15:1-5), so is a law obedience life, it is all fruit of the Spirit, “the willing and the doing” of the Spirit in us.

Faith without work is dead! It is the works of a believer who is not attached to the Vine, so the fruit of the Spirit is lacking!

In His love
James S

[Richard Myers]

Brother James, I do detect a difference in our understanding. I appreciate your patience in bringing it to light.  Now, I have given you all that I can. Let me ask you very plainly, will our characters be perfected now, or when Jesus comes?

In His love and grace,   Richard

[James Saptenno]

Brother Richard.

So far what I know about the word of God is that we will never be perfect till Jesus come, as we are still in this mortal flesh where the law of sin is in our members. That makes us always falling short of the glory of God, and can never be righteous, just and holy by performance. That is why we must be transformed into immortality, so that we are no longer falling short.

So, if we could never be just, righteous and holy by performance, i.e. keeping the law (Romans 8:3), then our salvation is wholly of grace received by faith. We are justified by our faith not by keeping the law, not by performance.

Believer in Christ after the closing of probation remain in their just, righteous and holy condition (even they are not perfect and still fall short) based on God acceptance of their faith in Christ, not on their performance.

But if you think otherwise, please share your thoughts. I might be wrong!

In His love

James S.

[Richard Myers]

Brother James, yes we do disagree. Our difference is on a very basic point that deals with the very foundation of the gospel. While I did bring this up in this thread, my main purpose was to look at an advanced "present truth" in the Book of Job that most of the book deals with. So, with your permission I would like to continue our discussion in a thread that was started to discuss just where you and I disagree. Brother Laval started the thread and it is called "Satan's Great Lie." It is in this forum (BOL) and we (you and I) have already been discussing this subject there. Please join me there and we will continue. Thank you.

Richard