Unconditional Love

[Cop]

 

quote:Some wish to bring this forward, the hate of God for the unrepentant, that they may show a condition for salvation, but again, this is not necessary.

You all know how slow I am, but I am not clear on what you are saying in this sentence. Are you saying there are conditions that God has for salvation or, that there are no conditions for salvation?

[Richard Myers]

Me too!    It is better to ask questions than to go through life not knowing anything!!  

Let me restate the sentance. It is not necessary to bring forth the hate of God for the eternally wicked in order to teach that none will enter heaven without a character that measures with the law of God. In other words, it is not the hate of God that will save a sinner, but the love that God has revealed in allowing His innocent Son to pay the price for my sins while I was yet a sinner.

It is indeed necessary to teach that obedience is the fruit of salvation. That is to say there are requirements for salvation. What are they? In the Words of our Lord and Saviour, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born from above, he can not see the kingdom of God. . . . That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh and whither it goeth. So is every one that is born of the Spirit." John 3:3-8, margin.  

    The apostle Paul, writing by the Holy Spirit, says, "God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love wherewith He loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God." Ephesians 2:4-8.  

    The leaven hidden in the flour works invisibly to bring the whole mass under its leavening process; so the leaven of truth works secretly, silently, steadily, to transform the soul. The natural inclinations are softened and subdued. New thoughts, new feelings, new motives, are implanted. A new standard of character is set up--the life of Christ. The mind is changed; the faculties are roused to action in new lines. Man is not endowed with new faculties, but the faculties he has are sanctified. The conscience is awakened. We are endowed with traits of character that enable us to do service for God.

Often the question arises, Why, then, are there so many, claiming to believe God's word, in whom there is not seen a reformation in words, in spirit, and in character? Why are there so many who cannot bear opposition to their purposes and plans, who manifest an unholy temper, and whose words are harsh, overbearing, and passionate? There is seen in their lives the same love of self, the same selfish indulgence, the same temper and hasty speech, that is seen in the life of the worldling. There is the same sensitive pride, the same yielding to natural inclination, the same perversity of character, as if the truth were wholly unknown to them. The reason is that they are not converted. They have not hidden the leaven of truth in the heart. It has not had opportunity to do its work. Their natural and cultivated tendencies to evil have not been submitted                                                  to its transforming power. Their lives reveal the absence of the grace of Christ, an unbelief in His power to transform the character.

"Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:17. The Scriptures are the great agency in the transformation of character. Christ prayed, "Sanctify them through Thy truth; Thy word is truth." John 17:17. If studied and obeyed, the word of God works in the heart, subduing every unholy attribute. The Holy Spirit comes to convict of sin, and the faith that springs up in the heart works by love to Christ, conforming us in body, soul, and spirit to His own image. Then God can use us to do His will.

Got a little long, but I hope this corrects any misunderstanding about the requirements for salvation. The Bible is abundantly clear without going into a discussion about the hate that God may have for the wicked. It is the love of God for the sinner that needs to be put forward. And, the law of God is the "school-master" that leads to Christ.

[asygo]

 

quote:Originally posted by Richard Myers:
Amen dear brother, it is indeed love that bars the unrepentant sinner from heaven.

What many don't understand is that it is the love of God for the sinner that keeps the sinner out of Heaven.

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By God's grace,
Arnold M. Sy Go
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[Richard Myers]

Yes, it is love to not allow someone to suffer on in their rebellion when it cannot be healed. The lost would suffer in heaven and it is a merciful act to put them to sleep. The manner of death of the wicked is not a merciful act however. The wicked will reap what they have sown and will suffer for each sin. Their death will be perfectly just. But, then this is the theme of another topic.

God's love for the sinner while his probation remains open is without conditions. When probation closes for the unrepentant sinner, he will not enter heaven and will suffer for each sin. What ever God's love is at that time makes little difference as to what will happen in the future.  Justice will be rendered without mercy. Mercy will have been rejected and her door forever closed.

Here is a thought to put this all in a proper perspective. When Jesus walked this earth as man, He spoke of God , not as an avenging judge, but as a tender father, and He revealed the image of God as mirrored in Himself. His words were like balm to the wounded spirit. both by His words and by His works of mercy He was breaking the oppressive power of the old traditions and man-made commandments, and presenting the love of God in its exhaustless fullness. This is to be our work also. Great care needs to be taken in how we speak of God and how we represent Him.

His love does not set aside justice, neither does his justice set aside His love. They both met at the cross.

[DHThiele]

I cannot believe that an unconditional love is capable of planning a conditional salvation. Love must have conditions or else there is no need for salvation at all.

"God and Christ knew from the beginning, of the apostasy of Satan and of the fall of Adam through the deceptive power of the apostate. The plan of salvation was designed to redeem the fallen race, to give them another trial. Christ was appointed to the office of Mediator from the creation of God, set up from everlasting to be our substitute and surety. Before the world was made, it was arranged that the divinity of Christ should be enshrouded in humanity. 'A body,' said Christ, 'hast thou prepared me.' But he did not come in human form until the fullness of time had expired. Then he came to our world, a babe in Bethlehem.
    
"No one born into the world, not even the most gifted of God's children, has ever been accorded such demonstration of joy as greeted the Babe born in Bethlehem. Angels of God sang his praises over the hills and plains of Bethlehem. 'Glory to God in the highest,' they sang, 'and on earth peace, good will toward men.' O that today the human family could recognize this song! The declaration then made, the note then struck, the tune then started, will swell and extend to the end of time, and resound to the ends of the earth. It is glory to God, it is peace on earth, good will to men. When the Sun of Righteousness shall arise with healing in his wings, the song then started in the hills of Bethlehem will be re-echoed by the voice of a great multitude, as the voice of many waters, saying, 'Alleluia, for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.'

"By his obedience to all the commandments of God, Christ wrought out a redemption for man. This was not done by going out of himself to another, but by taking humanity into himself. Thus Christ gave to humanity an existence out of himself. To bring humanity into Christ, to bring the fallen race into oneness with divinity, is the work of redemption. Christ took human nature that men might be one with him as he is one with the Father, that God may love man as he loves his only begotten Son, that men may be partakers of the divine nature, and be complete in him."     Review & Herald, April 5, 1906.

If Christ had failed, and we are told that there was a possibility that He could have made such as choice as to fail, then God could not have loved us as He loves His only begotten Son. If Christ had disobeyed in any particular, then what of His relationship to the Father? It would have been severed forever!

I believe that we are in serious danger when we start to discard or dismiss passages of Scripture or Spirit of Prophecy when they conflict with our opinions. Better to discard our opinions and discover the balance which allows for the inclusion of all that God has revealed to us through His messengers.

[Liane H]

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that                                                                             the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

Sister White says:

God intends that to the earnest seeker the truths of His word shall be ever unfolding. While "the secret things belong unto the Lord our God," "those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children." Deuteronomy 29:29. The idea that certain portions of the Bible cannot be understood has led to neglect of some of its most important truths. The fact needs to be emphasized, and often repeated, that the mysteries of the Bible are not such because God has sought to conceal truth, but because our own weakness or ignorance makes us incapable of comprehending or appropriating truth. The limitation is not in His purpose, but in our capacity. Of those very portions of Scripture often passed by as impossible to be understood, God desires us to understand as much as our minds are capable of receiving. "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God," that we may be "throughly furnished unto all good works," 2 Timothy 3:16, 17.  {Ed 170.4}

I believe that God wants us to know all that we can know. He desires us to search Him and to learn. If it was written by His Word then there is a reason it is there and it is important or else God would not have written it in the first place.

Whatever it is, no matter the doctrine, if it teaches us about Him and gives us power to grow and to learn at the feet of Jesus then we should with all earnestness seek it out and God will make it know to us.

Through her pen God tells us:

"The fact needs to be emphasized, and often repeated, that the mysteries of the Bible are not such because God has sought to conceal truth, but because our own weakness or ignorance makes us incapable of comprehending or appropriating truth."

There are portions of the Bible that was not revealed to His servant, Ellen G. White, but that does not mean that it is not to be revealed at some point.

As we draw closer to the coming of Jesus the requirement to us is to search the Scriptures as we have never done before. This is not a request, but a requirement, a command by God to study and learn of Him.  

   

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Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

[asygo]

 

quote:Originally posted by DHThiele:
I cannot believe that an unconditional love is capable of planning a conditional salvation. Love must have conditions or else there is no need for salvation at all.

That's only if you amalgamate love and salvation. But if you keep them distinct from each other, there is no problem.

For example, I love my kids all the time. That does not change. Sometimes, I take them to the park because I love them. But sometimes, I don't take them to the park because I love them. The situation dictates how my love manifests itself.

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By God's grace,
Arnold M. Sy Go
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[Liane H]

Brother Arnold:

You said:

"That's only if you amalgamate love and salvation. But if you keep them distinct from each other, there is no problem."

This is the part I do not understand. How does one separate love from salvation? As you said in your next paragraph does not love work to save? Would that not be the same principle?

Was it not love that commanded that Adam and Eve to obey? Do we separate love and obedience as if they are two separate situations?

It is because I (God) loves you that I desire to save you and for you to obey?

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Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

[DHThiele]

I am not "amalgating" anything.

God is Love. God planned Salvation. He gave life on condition of obedience, and provided a period of time by which to test the free moral agent to which He gave that life.

The act of separating love and salvation is the unnatural act.

But, I can see that after months of trying to share from the Scriptures and Spirit of Prophecy, or even history with the deleted thread revealing the philosophy of Erich Fromm who coined the term "unconditional thread" that the resistance to the truth about this concept is still strong.

I do not understand why it is being resurrected, unless someone has found unequivocal evidence in the Scriptures and Spirit of Prophecy as definitive proof that there is such a thing as "unconditional love". Or, folks are realizing the truth and are ready to admit the truth.

[This message has been edited by DHThiele (edited 10-03-2007).]

[asygo]

 

quote:Originally posted by Liane H:
How does one separate love from salvation?

Sis Liane,

First, let me clarify something. I did not say there must be a separation between love and salvation. I said there must be a distinction.

But let's see if love and salvation can be separated. Let's take the common, though incomplete, definition of salvation: going to Heaven. Now, let's take Satan, who has spent the last few thousand years hating and fighting God in his selfish desire to rule. Would it be loving for God to force Satan to spend the rest of eternity in His holy presence, where unselfishness reigns?

quote:The sinner could not be happy in God's presence; he would shrink from the companionship of holy beings. Could he be permitted to enter heaven, it would have no joy for him. The spirit of unselfish love that reigns there --every heart responding to the heart of Infinite Love --would touch no answering chord in his soul. His thoughts, his interests, his motives, would be alien to those that actuate the sinless dwellers there. He would be a discordant note in the melody of heaven. Heaven would be to him a place of torture; he would long to be hidden from Him who is its light, and the center of its joy. It is no arbitrary decree on the part of God that excludes the wicked from heaven; they are shut out by their own unfitness for its companionship. The glory of God would be to them a consuming fire. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. {SC 17.2}

Short answer: No.

The love that gives life to holy beings is the same love that will remove life from unholy beings. Why? Because love is unselfish; it wants what is best for others. And in the end, death is better than a life of disobedience.

quote:Death before dishonor or the transgression of God's law should be the motto of every Christian. {5T 147.1}

That's not an arbitrary sentiment. That's how God made the universe. Death is better than disobedience. And in God's love, He will always do what's best.

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By God's grace,
Arnold M. Sy Go
-end-

[asygo]

 

quote:Originally posted by DHThiele:
The act of separating love and salvation is the unnatural act.

Two short questions:

1. Does God always save?
2. Is God always love?

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By God's grace,
Arnold M. Sy Go
-end-

[Liane H]

Brother Arnold:

I will give you my answer.

For God so loved the WORLD. Christ died for all so that all could be saved. God would save every person if He could, but the saving is our choice, not His. He did His part in giving His only begotten Son.

In His love He died for ALL to be saved. So yes in His love He did save all through the death of Jesus.  

God is love, we both know that.  

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Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

[Richard Myers]

 

quote:Originally posted by Liane H:

In His love He died for ALL to be saved. So yes in His love He did save all through the death of Jesus.  

Communications is difficult at the best of times.....but, it is all we have to make known the truth.

How can it be said that "He did save all through the death of Jesus"? All have not been saved. He made provision for all to be saved would be the correct statement, would it not?

This seems to be the difficulty that we had for over a year in dealing with this subject in other topics. Communications is very hard and it takes a willingness to try and understand what one is saying if we are to have reconciliation. After a year and half, it became abundantly clear that the manner in which one speaks on this subject is very important. The words spoken need to be well thought out and there needs to be a very good understanding and concern for the gospel when commenting in this area.

There is no confusion in my mind and I don't think there is much controversy over this subject. While false gospels abound in the Christian church, I think that there is almost complete agreement that God's love is full and free to the sinner whose probation remains open. When the sinner's heart is beyond salvation, then there is much disagreement, but not so with the sinner who has not seared his heart beyond change.

When we understand the gospel and that salvation is by grace, and grace alone, we value the understanding that we are saved by beholding God's grace, His love, His glory, His character. And, knowing this, we refuse to allow any teaching to interpose between God's love and sinful man.

In this topic, there is little room for discussion on the basics. God does not require a man to love Him in order that He love the man. No matter how bad, as long as the man has not passed the bounds of being able to be brought to repentance then we all agree that God loves this man.

There is room to study what happens to the relationship between the sinner and God when the man can no longer be saved because his heart is beyond reach. Does God love him then? That is the subject of another topic and it cannot be confused with our present discussion as has been done in the past. I am going to open that topic in Worship forum for continued discussion. Let us call it Does God's Love Ever Stop?

[DHThiele]

 

quote:Originally posted by asygo:
Two short questions:

1. Does God always save?
2. Is God always love?

Your questions do not prove that God's love is unconditional. Instead, you should be asking yourself the question, "Who was the only one to have a knowledge of good and evil before Lucifer was found to have iniquity in him?" God has the power of choice, and He chooses to do only that which is the best for everyone, regardless of whether they are righteous or wicked. But conditions are involved. Time is itself a condition on God's love, or there would never be a need for probation of righteous angels. God created Adam and Eve, placed them on probation, and told them the wages of disobedience was death. Unconditional love is a fabrication, and the sad fact is that professed Christians are sincerely deceived and leading others into deception by teaching it as though it were truth.

The fact remains that the Scriptures state that God hates all workers of iniquity, and that there comes a point where God chooses to stop loving, as Liane and I have diligently pointed out.

Again, I see no minds being changed, but rather attempts to contradict what the Scriptures and Spirit of Prophecy state. Throwing out those verses that plainly indicate that God's love has conditions will not help you in your attempts to defend the vain philosophies of unconverted men.

This will be my last post on the subject, since I doubt that any further discussion will lead to a change of hearts and minds.

[Liane H]

Dear Brother Richard:

I am not sure about the word provision, but I do understand these statements:

And what is it to believe? It is to fully accept that Jesus Christ died as our sacrifice; that He became the curse for us, took our sins upon Himself, and imputed unto us His own righteousness. {3SM 172.3}

He was treated as we deserve to be treated. He came to our world and took our sins that we might take His righteousness. And faith in the ability of Christ to save us amply and fully and entirely is the faith of Jesus.  {3SM 172.3}

There is nothing in faith that makes it our saviour. Faith cannot remove our guilt. Christ is the power of God unto salvation to all them that believe. The justification comes through the merits of Jesus Christ. He has paid the price for the sinner's redemption. Yet it is only through faith in His blood that Jesus can justify the believer.  {RC 78.4}

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Cor. 5:21.  {HP 15.1}

The God of justice did not spare His Son.The whole debt for the transgression of God's law was demanded from our Mediator. A full atonement was required. How appropriate are the words of Isaiah, "It pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief." His soul was made "an offering for sin." "He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities" (Isa. 53:10, 5).  {HP 15.2}

What a price has been paid for us! Behold the cross, and the Victim uplifted upon it. Look at those hands, pierced with the cruel nails. Look at His feet, fastened with spikes to the tree. Christ bore our sins in His own body. That suffering, that agony, is the price of your redemption.  {AG 172.4}

Every man and woman has had the ransom money paid by Jesus Christ. "Ye are not your own. For ye are bought with a price"--even the precious blood of the Son of God.  {OHC 42.2}

O that we might comprehend more fully the infinite price that has been paid for our redemption! Paul declares, "Ye are bought with a price" (1 Cor. 6:20); and it is true; for the price paid is nothing less than the life of the only-begotten Son of God. Let us all consider this. We may refuse the invitations that Christ sends to us; we may neglect His offer of pardon and peace; but still it remains a fact that every one of us has been bought with a price, even with the precious blood of the Son of God. Therefore, "Consider him" (Heb. 12:3).  {1SM 100.2}

The price for our salvation was paid for by Jesus. It had been bought and paid for by Him. It was given to all, no one was left out.

The issue becomes will we accept it?

------------------
Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

[Richard Myers]

"The fact remains that the Scriptures state that God hates all workers of iniquity, and that there comes a point where God chooses to stop loving, as Liane and I have diligently pointed out."

If God hated all workers of iniquity (sinners) then how is it that there would come a time when He would stop loving them? This makes no logical sense unless God hates and loves at the same time. Does God hate the workers of iniquity and also love them until the time comes when He does not love them any more???

Again, communications is quite difficult. Maybe the interpretation of workers of iniquity is not those who sin??

This really is quite simple. God loves those who are sinners without any requirements as long as they have not reached the point of not being able to repent. When a sinner's heart is seared to the point, he cannot repent, then what God feels for the sinner is the topic of the  Does God's Love Ever Stop? topic.

Here it is important we all understand that God places no conditions upon His love for the sinner. He sent Christ to die for us all while we were yet sinners. And, when we are converted, He still places no requirements upon His love as long as our hearts are not past being moved. When the heart is no longer impressible, then we may discuss His attitude, but not before. God loves those who sin, in their sin. They are not saved in their sin, but only when their characters have been changed and Christ is enthroned within. God's love has to be revealed in the life of the Christian before there is salvation. This comes as a result of the revelation of God's love for the sinner being accepted into the heart. At that time, Christ imparts and imputes His righteousness to the repentant sinner.

The gospel is not hard, but spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

[Liane H]

This last Sabbath before I leave for Ohio on my vacation trip I went to a home church of Seventh-day Adventists that are no longer going to church for one reason or another.

The way Gregg help me to understand it is that yes universally Christ died for all and in that offering of His death for us a provision was made to accept that offering to each person that wanted it. He says the death has no merit to the person that does not accept it, but does to those that do.

We also I believe can agree that this offering is continuing even today as our High Priest until He comes.

If I am still off, please help me to see what I am missing.  

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Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

[Liane H]

Here is a statement from Sister White. I leave it at that and let us pray and consider what she is saying of this verse regarding hating iniquity:

" When the young adopt vile practices while the spirit is tender, they will never obtain force to fully and correctly develop physical, intellectual, and moral character. Here was a man debasing himself daily, and yet daring to venture into the presence of God and ask an increase of strength which he had vilely squandered, and which, if granted, he would consume upon his lust. What forbearance has God! If He should deal with man according to his corrupt ways, who could live in His sight? What if we had been less cautious and carried the case of this man before God while he was practicing iniquity, would the Lord have heard? would He have answered? "For Thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with Thee. The foolish shall not stand in Thy sight: Thou hatest all workers of iniquity." "If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me."  {2T 351.1}

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Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

[asygo]

 

quote:Originally posted by DHThiele:
Your questions do not prove that God's love is unconditional. ...
This will be my last post on the subject, since I doubt that any further discussion will lead to a change of hearts and minds.

That's the second longest way to say No I've ever seen. Just say what you mean directly: No, God is not always love. Simple.

But then, it will be obvious that you contradict John, who, BTW, had a really good understanding of the relationship between love and obedience.

BTW, that was not meant to prove unconditional love. That was meant to address your comment that, "The act of separating love and salvation is the unnatural act." That fact that you cannot separate the two and your rejection of unconditional salvation lead you to reject unconditional love.

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By God's grace,
Arnold M. Sy Go
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[This message has been edited by asygo (edited 10-09-2007).]

[Mimi]

Hi, Arnold. I have missed you. Glad to see you posting on this subject. Reason needs to abound.