Christ and Him Crucified

[Gary K]

Hi David,

Just a small sidelight here on the text from Hebrews about Christ learning obedience from the things he suffered.

The word translated as obedience came from a Greek word meaning attentive hearkening and the word suffered from one meaning to experience something, usually something painful.

Jesus came here not knowing what it was really like to live in our shoes. Now God is all knowing, but somethings can only be experienced to gain a knowledge of. He had to learn to listen attentively to the Holy Spirit when tired, cold, hungry, stressed out, all the things that we know as human life that can only be experienced by being human. He could not have known by experience what it is like to be any of the above things unless He actually became one of us.

To attentively hearken is to pay real close attention to what is said. It infers listening closely enough to obey.

This is the meaning that I get from what the Strong's Concordance has to say about the words used in that text. I hope this is of some help to you. It was a learning experience for me as I hadn't ever been curious enough to go and look it up before and I got a real blessing out of it.

I don't have a reason to not listen to the Holy Spirit closely enough to obey when I'm tired, cold, hungry, upset, depressed, etc... Jesus came to make sure that He could teach me how to do just that under all circumstances.

Your brother in Christ, Gary

[James Saptenno]

Brother Richard.

Amen! Thanks for the support.
To continue on this issue, when His humanity can’t stand any longer, did Jesus ever use His Power to resist temptation or trials? Or did He ask it from the Father?
Did He rely on the Father as we rely on Christ, or did He some times rely on Him self?

Were this statement below applicable to Christ or not, or applicable only for people at that time (Jews and Gentiles) and not applicable to us, or applicable to Christ (and us) as a nature of sinful flesh.

What then? Are we better then they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles , that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprovitable; THERE IS NONE THAT DOETH GOOD, NO, NOT ONE (Romans 3:9-12)
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? THERE IS NONE GOOD but one, that is, God (Mark 10:18).
   For I know that in me (that is in my flesh), dwelleth no good thing; for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not (Romans 7:18).

This is important for me as I believe there are still “good” in us (spiritual) as it were created in man. In the flesh there is nothing good.
Free choice is not a sin and not evil, God created that in us. If man mostly use his free choice to act against God,  that will not say that no one is good, because in Romans 2:13-16 we can learn that there are people can do good things even they never hear of God, never knew His law.

In His love

James S

[Richard Myers]

Brother Ivan, forgive me. I did not mean to imply you had any intention to promote Desmond Ford. It is the subject which leads into the teachings of Desmond Ford. If we come at it from another direction, Christ and Him crucified it makes it much more difficult to enter into controversy over the matter.

Again, please know that my concern was not with your intentions.    Let's see how it goes in the other topics.   It is being discussed now in two threads.

In His love and grace,    Richard

[Richard Myers]

We glory in our tribulation! Why do we glory in our tribulation? Was this not true with Christ also? Is this not why He learned obdience through His sufferings?

Somebody fill in the missing pieces and see if it is not so.  

In His love and grace,    Richard

[2davidincalgary]

Hello Gary

Ah!  That's just what I needed to hear!  Thankyou for your comments about "obedience" and "suffered".  Jesus did indeed learn obedience...What a character He must be, to leave what He had, to personally experience what we had!

Heb.12:2 sheds a little more light on this fascinating subject of Jeus' "obedience."  As the text says: "Who for the joy that was set before Him; endured the cross..."  

I have often wondered how to reconcile the fact that sometimes; we can't be "happy," as in an emotional sense...

Was Jesus "happy" when He was hanging on the cross?  I don't think so.  The Bible says "He endured."  

The thing that brought this to life for me was when I read Steps To Christ, pg.77; and it reads, in answer to the question: "What is the "joy of Jesus?"  It says: "The Savior's joy was in the uplifting and redemption of fallen men."  

His joy was a goal or purpose, not always an emotion.  His "obedience" had a special purpose to it!  That makes a lot more sense to me.

"Let brotherly love continue."  (Heb.13:1).

Your "brother" in Christ

David T. Battler

[This message has been edited by 2davidincalgary (edited 04-10-2000).]

[tami strand]

Richard, from the Desire of Ages, from the chapter AS A CHILD , I believe each sentence of this quote has a lesson for us.

#1."Jesus was placed where His character would be tested. #2.It was necessary for Him to be constantly on quard in order to preserve his purity. #3.He was subject to all conflicts which we have to meet, that He might be an example to us in childhood, youth and manhood. #4.Satan was unwearied in his efforts to overcome the Child of Nazareth. #5.From His earliest years Jesus was quarded by heavenly angels, yet His life was ONE LONG STRUGGLE against the powers of darkness. That there should be upon the earth one life free from the defilement of evil was an offense and a perplexity to the prince of darkness. #6 He left no means untried to ensnare Jesus. #7 No child of humanity will ever be called to live a holy life amid so fierce a conflict with temptation as was our saviour."

From that paragraph, we can learn in our limited capacity, His love for us in that He endured so much. We can learn of the extent to which He suffered and was tempted, far and above anything we will experience. That we, like He will be placed where our character will be tested. That Satan is unwearied in his efforts to overcome and that we should not get comfortable, knowing that he will only become more determined in his efforts, more subtle and insideous. And let us not be discouraged but persevere for our life will be "one long struggle" as was the Lord's. So many do become discouraged and fall away due to their perceived failures or lack of growth. When these times are actually a time for growth and testing.
 
God Bless,
Tami

[2davidincalgary]

Hello Brother James S.

You asked me about my opinion in regards to the nature of Jesus a short while back.  As the title of this thread implies; I strive to centre any points of belief around the theme of Christ; and Him crucified.  (Gal.6:14).

In order to meet that criteria, in a simple way, without being too theological; I thought I would enclose the following quote/s from the margin of my Bible.  They are not totally originated by me, but I wrote them beside various Bible texts to help me keep this matter straight and simple to relate to others.

The following quote is by AT Jones, and I have written it beside Luke 1:35:

"And the angel answered and said unto her: 'The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee; and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: Therefore also, that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.'"  (KJV)).

"Jesus was born again from the world of righteousness into the world of sin, that we might be born again from the world of sin, into the world of righteousness.  Jesus was born again, and made a partaker of the human nature, that we might be born again, and made partakers of the divine nature.  Jesus was born again unto earth, sin, and man; that we might be born again unto heaven, unto righteousness, and unto God."

Hebrews chapter 1 goes into detail about the divine aspects of Jesus' nature, and Hebrews chapter 2 gives details of His human nature.

Isaiah chapter 53 is also a good Old Testament reference to study the nature of Christ.  Speaking of this chapter; Ellen G. White wrote something very similar to AT Jones:

"Christ was treated as we deserve; that we might be treated as He deserves.  He was condemned for our sins in which He had no share, that we might be justified by His righteousness in which we had no share.  He suffered the death which was ours, that we may receive the life which was His.  'By His stripes we are healed.'"  (Desire Of Ages, pg.25).

The Scripture and Spirit Of Prophecy above are the main points that concern Christians today.  This subject has become confusing to me whenever I have forgotten this counsel:

"The Bible unfolds Truth with a simplicity and a perfect adaptation to the needs and longings of the human heart."  (Steps To Christ, pg.107).

I have also found the following passage to be a good guideline in this, and any similar, complex subject:

"It does not require much learning or ability to ask questions that are difficult to answer.  A child may ask questions over which the wisest men may be puzzled.  Let us not be engaged in a contest of this kind."
(Testimonies To Ministers And Gospel Workers, pg.109).

I hope you will find the above to be helpful; and that Jesus will be to you a divine Savior, who can relate to your specific needs.

A good example of how Jesus knows us and can relate to how we are feeling and what we need is the other day with me.  I was praying about a matter that was troubling me; and I opened my Bible to a passage that was just what I was experiencing:

Ps.69: 1-3: "I am weary of my crying; my throat is dried: mine eyes fail while I wait for my God."  (vs.3).

The reason Jesus knows this kind of thing about anybody, is because He too experienced it here on earth.

Praise God from whom all blessings flow.  He knows how to strengthen me; because He too was strengthened!

Your brother In Christ

David T. Battler

[2davidincalgary]

Getting Our "Heads" On Straight
by David T. Battler.  (Rev.17:11).

“And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth; and is of the seven; and goeth into perdition!”  (KJV).

A friend of mine said to me today: We should be able to back up whatever we say from the Bible, and the Bible alone.  I want to strengthen that thought with the following:

A sure-fire test to see if what we believe is our own personal opinion, or that of the Bible, and the Lord who wrote the Bible, is to move away from the one verse approach to Bible topics at times, and take a general survey of the entire Bible Book that a given verse is mentioned in.

If you were to do this with the book of Revelation for eg., you would immediately notice a large sea of terrifying beast symbols, that could really “shake you in your boots,” but for the fact that throughout this great sea, there are numerous little islands of praise!

“Holy!  Holy!  Holy!”

“Worthy is the Lamb!”

Over and over and over, throughout the stormy sea of symbols in the Revelation, these little islands of praise off-set the trauma and the mystery by THE CERTAINTY that God is praise-worthy!

No matter how bad, or how perplexing a particular verse might be, such as Rev.13:15, we can say with a heart full of assurance that Jesus is worthy to be praised!  He is to me a divine Saviour!  “Worthy [to me] is the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world!”  (Rev.5:12).  “That was slain,” depicts why He is worthy, and how He speaks peace to the stormy sea; and this is how we can meet the criteria of relating the sea of symbols, to the theme of Christ and Him crucified!  (Gal.6:14).

How many islands of praise do you see in the Bible, or, in your own personal experience?  This is the acid test of all our beliefs!

There are, within these kinds of contrasts, of the sybols versus the praise, a pilgrimmage motif, and a great controversy motif,  that touches the heart of everyone’s personal experience.

This is the general impression that I get from the Book of Revelation as a whole.  And, it is exciting to know that in the midst of it all...

Jesus knows...

even me!

Let us strive to remember to “teach and to preach,”  (Acts 5;42), the whole Gospel, (Rev.14:6), and how “Jesus is the Christ,”  (Acts 5:42), by including these little islands of praise in all our talk about Revelation.  The sea is getting very stormy.

Let All God’s people say Amen! and Amen! to

The Seven Beatitudes Of Revelation!

1) Rev. 1:3
2) Rev. 14:13
3) Rev.16:15
4) Rev.19:9
5) Rev.20:6
6) Rev.22:7
7) Rev.22:14

“Blessed is he that reads and hears and keeps” the words of Revelation!  (see Rev.1:3).

“Let brotherly love continue.”  (Heb.13:1).

Your brother In Christ

David T. Battler

[This message has been edited by 2davidincalgary (edited 04-12-2000).]

[Richard Myers]

Amen, Sister Tami and Brother David! So good to listen to the Words of Jesus! It brings peace to the soul.  

Richard

[James Saptenno]

Brother David.

Romans 8:3 says : For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son, in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.

Is this not a proof that Jesus was born in the same sinful flesh and sinful nature as all of us?

And if I may ask, what is sinful nature? How and when we get this nature?

In His love

James S

[M.A. Crawford]

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh" (Rom. 8:3).

Of the Bible text above, someone asked: "Is this not proof that Jesus was born in the same sinful flesh and sinful nature as all of us?"

Jesus, as the text indicates, was born into the human race with a body that was subject to death (sinful flesh), but He was not born with a sinful nature. Matthew 1:20 reads: "But while he thought on these  things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost."

In addition to Calvary, Jesus came to this world to prove that Adam did not have to sin. Lucifer had made accusations in Heaven that, because they were Holy beings, there was no need to keep God's Laws because Holy beings are perfect and do not make mistakes, therefore there is no need for laws which are confining, restrictive, and do not lend themselves to one being totally free as Holy beings should be.

One third of the Heavenly angelic host listened to and accepted Lucifer's argument and sided with him. After he and his angels were dismissed from Heaven, he took his argument to created beings on other worlds who had been forewarned by Holy angels of God that he was coming and not to let him in. All of the other worlds kept the evil one shut out save one---planet earth and the first family. Because he successfully tempted Adam and Eve to sin, the enemy of souls thought he had won and proven through the human family that God's Laws were indeed impossible to keep.

It was into this scenario that Jesus was born with a sinless nature just like the one Adam had prior to his sin. In order for Christ to prove that Adam did not have to sin, He had to be born with the same sinless nature Adam first possessed. From birth to the time He left this earth, Jesus lived a sinless life and proved in the flesh that Adam did not have to sin because He overcame all things---not through His own Divinity---but, the same way all humans are privileged to overcome: through the Word of God and the power of the Holy Spirit.

M.A.  

[M.A. Crawford]

The question was also asked: What is sinful nature and when do we get this nature?"

A sinful nature, or the propensity to sin, is what we inherited from Adam. We are born with it from the moment we enter the world as babies. "For as in Adam, all die..." (1 Cor. 15:22). All die because it is not possible for "a clean thing" to come from that which is not clean. But praise God for Jesus Christ who showed us how we all can live a sinless life. Now all we have to do is follow His Example.

Although as in Adam all die, "even so in Christ shall all be made alive" (1 Cor. 15:22, last part).

M.A.

[Felix Olive]

Dear Bro. Crawford and brothers in this forum,

The post-fall view presents a problem though. It was sinful man He came to redeem, therefore, "He had to be made like His brethren in all things, that He maight become a merciful and faithful high priests in thing pertaining to God, to make propiciation for the sins of the people"
When the WORD "was made" flesh, there was only one kind He could have been "made", the same fallen sinful flesh we have.
"In the body of His flesh, He reconciled our alienation and enmity (Col 1:21,22).
True righteousness by faith means that we identify with Christ and Him crucified.
An interesting quotation from Ellen G. White, Selected Messages  book 1 page 250.
By His obedience to all the commandments of God, Christ wrought out a  redemption for all men. This was not done by going out of Himself to another, but by taking humanity into Himself. Thus Christ gave to humanity an existance out of Himself. To bring humanity to Christ, to bring the fallen race into oneness with divinity, is the work of redemption".
I think that the beauty of the plan of salvation, is to see how Christ assuming our sinful nature, never got contaminated by it, and that we depending on the Father, as Jesus was dependant, can overcome sin in the flesh. This is the gift of God to mankind.
May the Lord help our understanding with this realization of God's love.

In Chris's love,

Felix

[M.A. Crawford]

Bro. Olive, I am highly aware that this is a forum where opinions will be offered that will differ from mine. I don't have a problem with that because, as I have stated before, I would be very naive to think that everyone is going to agree with me all the time. However, my hope is that we can disagree without becoming disagreeable.

Whether Jesus came into the world with or without a sinful nature is really irrelevant. What is important is HE CAME, and provided us with an example that will lead to eternal life if we would follow in His steps.

M.A.  

[Richard Myers]

If Jesus came in the nature of Adam before his fall then he would be an example for Adam before his fall, but not for Adam after his fall. We have the nature of Adam after the fall and Christ could not be our example if He was not made in the likeness of sinful flesh.  It is a mystery how Jesus could be fully man and fully God, but it is so. How could He overcome sin in the likeness of sinful flesh? Through the power given Him of His Father, the same power offered to us in our fallen nature. What a thought, that Jesus would take on the nature of man after 4,000 years of sin! This is love!

Jesus was not made in all ways like man. He is the only sinless One. There is no need to delve into this mystery beyond what the Bible says; He came in the likeness of sinful flesh. He did not take on the holy nature of Adam before the fall. Adam was not created in the "likeness of sinful flesh." He was created with holy flesh.

Jesus was without sin. There was not the least taint of sin upon Jesus. Before continuing the discussion on the nature of Christ which usually is a very divisive subject, but it need not be, please read pages 48 and 49 I believe, in The Desire of Ages. I believe that since we all accept the Spirit of Prophecy as inspired, it may help us to better understand the issue. This is one of the most beautiful passages that I have ever read on the love of God for fallen man. It reveals how much God loves us. This is why it is important to understand the degree to which Jesus stooped to save us. It is a revelation of how much He and our heavenly Father love us.

In His love and grace,     Richard

[James Douglas]

Brother M.A.

Christ I believe was born in the same flesh and same nature as other human beings for whom He comes to save them. But His mind, His way of thinking, His Spirit is divine. We were born in the same flesh and nature as He is but with a different spirit. We have the spirit of rebellion inherited from Adam. We were born in the image of Adam and after his likeness, Jesus not, because He was born from the Holy Ghost, He was born in the image of Adam but after God likeness. His heart is pure.

As the temptation of the flesh and of the world reached Him, He can overcome and won this temptations because He was motivated by LOVE, in fact He is love Himself. He loved us too much and willing to sacrifice Himself in our favor, He will die for us.  And His love to His Father is the strongest band that cling Him to heaven, not a bit will He deny His Father and ashamed Him in front of the universe.

And that is the example He gave us, IF we love Him we hate sin, and if we love Him we will not ashamed Him and deny Him in front of our friends and neighborhood.

Yes, Brother M.A, you are right when you say :” Whether Jesus came into the world with or without a sinful nature is really irrelevant”
But to have a better understanding about Him, His love, His works and His plans for us will help us a lot to focus on our destiny, final destination which is in heaven.

In His love

James s.

[M.A. Crawford]

One brother stated to me that he knows of individuals who have left the Church grappling over the nature of Christ. This is precisely what the enemy of souls wants us to do. He wants us to "MAJOR IN MINORS" and get caught up in issues that really have no bearing as to whether one is saved or not. This is one of the major snares of Satan: to cause us to occupy a large portion of our time and energy discussing issues that are devoid of salvation, thereby causing us to be ill-prepared to confront the real issues of life and death when we encounter them.

In this forum one can believe what one wishes to believe. I don't have a problem with an individual having views that are different from mine because we all have to  see Jesus for ourselves as individuals. We are not saved in groups. If we are saved at all it will be because of bringing our lives in line with the Word and Will of God as individuals.

As I have stated before, the nature in which Jesus came to this earth is not as important as the fact that HE CAME, provided us with a Perfect Example unto salvation, and sacrificed His Life that we might have a second chance at eternal life. And this sacrifice was accepted by God the Father.  

THESE are the REAL important facts about the coming of Jesus to this world, and I hope that those who left the church over this issue will come to understand this before it is too late.

M.A.  

[James Douglas]

Some one ask, am I justified on the cross of Christ or when I accept Him (on baptism)? This need a deep thinking, but without re-thinking I would say that I was justified when I accept Christ at my baptism.

Any comments?

In His love

James S.

[James Douglas]

God sending His own Son In the likeness of sinful flesh (Romans 8:3).
So, Jesus was 100 percent man. He was born in the likeness of sinful flesh after the images of Adam (Genesis 5:3).  That means  as the context say He was just the same as all other human beings, the same as me, a normal man with a tendency to sin from a sinful flesh.

But He never sinned! The questions are “WHY” or “HOW”?

Why? Is it because He is God? Or How, because His faith in His Father and His love to mankind? If it is “how”, then we can also do the same through our faith in Christ. Even I still failed up to now.

In His love.

James S.

[James Douglas]

If  because He is God, no wonder I often failed; I am just human anyway. But then no man can be perfect and overcome sins.

In His love

James S.