The Hebrew Sanctuary

[Richard Myers]

The death of Christ upon the cross made sure the destruction of him who has the power of death, who was the originator of sin. When Satan is destroyed, there will be none to tempt to evil; the atonement will never need to be repeated; and there will be no danger of another rebellion in the universe of God. That which alone can effectually restrain from sin in this world of darkness, will prevent sin in heaven. The significance of the death of Christ will be seen by saints and angels. Fallen men could not have a home in the paradise of God without the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Shall we not then exalt the cross of Christ? The angels ascribe honor and glory to Christ, for even they are not secure except by looking to the sufferings of the Son of God. It is through the efficacy of the cross that the angels of heaven are guarded from apostasy. Without the cross they would be no more secure against evil than were the angels before the fall of Satan. Angelic perfection failed in heaven. Human perfection failed in Eden, the paradise of bliss. All who wish for security in earth or heaven must look to the Lamb of God. The plan of salvation, making manifest the justice and love of God, provides an eternal safeguard against defection in unfallen worlds, as well as among those who shall be redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. Our only hope is perfect trust in the blood of Him who can save to the uttermost all that come unto God by Him. The death of Christ on the cross of Calvary is our only hope in this world, and it will be our theme in the world to come. We do not comprehend the value of the atonement! If we did, we would talk more about it. The gift of God in his beloved Son was the expression of an incomprehensible love. It was the utmost that God could do to preserve the honor of his law, and still save the transgressor. Why should man not study the theme of redemption? It is the greatest subject that can engage the human mind. If men would contemplate the love of Christ, displayed in the cross, their faith would be strengthened to appropriate the merits of his shed blood, and they would be cleansed and saved from sin. There are many who will be lost, because they depend on legal religion, or mere repentance for sin. But repentance for sin alone cannot work the salvation of any soul. Man cannot be saved by his own works. Without Christ it is impossible for him to render perfect obedience to the law of God; and heaven can never be gained by an imperfect obedience; for this would place all heaven in jeopardy, and make possible a second rebellion.

[jherbertthompson]

Brother's and Sister's.  Brother Myers comment has sparked my thought patterns again tonight and I wonder if the following may not be true?

It appears that Abel not only understood what was required in the sacrificial alter service.  He also thoroughly understood the plan of salvation.  Restoration and ultimate Atonement were, I believe also understood by those who faithfully served God...

How Adam and Eve must have suffered watching their children, grand children; generation after generation following self-will and arrogance against God's plan for redemption.

This leads to a question I have refered to in some of the other posts I've made in this forum.  What was the problem with sin that the plan of salvation was devised to fix?

Sincerely your brother in Christ

[Richard Myers]

Yes, Brother Herbert, Adam and Eve and their children were told of the plan of salvation, they knew that the lamb represented Jesus....and they knew that Jesus could give them victory over sin. The plan of salvation promised a new nature in sinful flesh. It provided for a race of beings that would have a character more perfect than Adam and Eve had before they fell, a race that had chosen to sin. Such a plan! The plan of salavation provides for an end to sin, that sin and sinners will all one day be reduced to ashes.

Richard

[jherbertthompson]

Brother Richard.  You said in your last post:
>>Adam and Eve and their children were told of the plan of salvation, they knew that the lamb represented Jesus...."and they knew [?] that Jesus could give them victory over sin."

<Stop> What Biblical proof can you give regarding the issue that they "knew" that Jesus could give them victory over sin?  This is unfamiliar theology to me...My understanding of this issue is that they "knew" that He [Jesus] would ultimately "win" the conflict begun in the garden by satan and his deception...And, they "knew" that, as you said, the lamb represented Jesus...However, how would a "sinless live" be possible to them?  Even living a "perfect" life following the fall, was not their "flesh" by way of "sin" mared, and therefore "not perfect"?

>>The plan of salvation promised a new nature in sinful flesh. It provided for a race of beings that would have a character more perfect [?] than Adam and Eve had before they fell.[?]

<Stop>  How can this be?  "More perfect" than what?  Before they fell, on the creation eve of their creation, God had looked over His newly completed garden and pronounced it "Very, Very Good"!

Now, perhaps, is a good place to insert what has become a deeper and deeper question than I had first imagined when first hearing it myself...What was the problem with sin that the plan of salvation was designed to fix?
Additionally, which was more important to God: His Law? Or, His creation?

One more thought [in four parts] before closing in regard to the Hebrew Sanctuary, it's antitypical symbology, in particular which may discussed at more length: a) The Creator-God sat enthroned between the cherubim, symbolic of His actual reign and sovereignty over all the creation [Ex. 20:8-11]; b) The law spoke not only of moral intergrity and righteousness; it also gave the throne of God the attribute of justice; c) The Ark also reflected the divine attitude of grace; d) Finally, the attention of Israel was to be drawn to contemplate the mediatorial ministry of the priesthood.  Throughout the year the priests had approached God on their behalf, mediating the shed blood of the sacrifices, and offering up fragrant incense on the golden alter.  On the Day of Atonement the high priest stood within the very throne room of God, in the immediate presence of Diety, administering both incense and blood, thereby removing sin from the sanctuary and securing the approval of God for His people.  IN this last instance, then, the ark became to them a throne of mediation, intercession, and salvation through a representative priest who could reconcile man to God...

The problem, however, was that Isreal [and perhaps Spiritual Israel?] never really "got it"...

Blessings from Him who is ABLE!

Your brother in Christ

[Richard Myers]

Brother Herbert,  isn't this great!!   God does care! You ask "What Biblical proof can you give regarding the issue that they "knew" that Jesus could give them victory over sin?"

Here is your Bible support. Genesis 3:15, "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman..."  But, my dear brother, throughout the Bible we find the same promise to us who are much worse than Eve.  

My favorite is Ezekiel 36:26, 27. What do you think?  

Richard

[jherbertthompson]

Brother Richard.  Although God did "promise to put enmity" in the heart of man...I need further convencing that that "enmity" means the "promise" of a "perfect life" while they were on this planet...

This "life" which they had was, at least as I have been thus far taught, a "probationary period" in which they, as are we all, given the chance to come to a decision on our own based upon fact and evidence...Reasoning by which they may "receive or reject" God's way of doing things...Freedom means giving the other person the right to say "yes or no"!

Here too brings up another thought.  Is it enough to "know the truth"?  Or, do we, or must we do "something" with the truth which has been given us?  And, by reasoning, do we think it possible to come close to the "thoughts of God"?

And finally, I'll re-ask the question...Is hatred for sin enough?  Do we not also need to act upon that hatered?  Do we not need to reach beyond ourselves to something unknown, unseen, virtually unheard...grasping by "faith" what we cannot and will not grasp literally?  I honestly see no "promise" of a "victorious life" in the scripture you have given...Maybe you would explain further?

Your brother in Christ.

[Liane H]

Hi Herbert:

It is hard sometimes for me to take one set of words such as "victorious life," and apply it to other words that mean the same thing.

What I have found are two scriptures that appear to me to say the same as above.

Revelation 3:21

"To him that OVERCOMETH will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also OVERCAME, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

My view of this would be is that for one to overcometh, one would have the victorious life.

In Revelation 14:1-5

"And I looked and lo, a Lamb stood on mount Zion, and with him a hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Then in verse 4 and 5:

These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whither soever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb.

And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

It appears from here that 144,000 will have had the victorous life, for they are found without fault.

I will keep looking and I am sure Richard would do far better than me.

Liane  

[This message has been edited by liane (edited 06-20-2001).]

[Richard Myers]

Brother Herbert, Sister Liane has shared some good thoughts. Letus look at Ezekiel 3:21  "Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul."

We can look at 1 John 2:1 "My little chidren, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not."

Best of all we can listen to the Lord, Jesus Christ tell us what the requirements for salvation are: "And a certain ruler asked Him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit etenral life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother."

In the sermon on the mount Jesus said the same: "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Hope this helps a little.  

Richard

[Richard Myers]

Brother Herbert I re-read your post and you said "perfect life". I did not use that term.  Maybe this is where we are having a difficulty.  Perfection is an interesting word.  Jesus only asks us to do that which we know to do. To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin. Is this perfection? Keeping the wrong day holy? Yes, it is the perfection that Jesus desires. He wants us to have "moral" perfection. He wants to live in us and make our motives correct. He wants to give us a  new heart that is full of love. The correct eating habits, the correct dress, the correct day of worship will all be learned, but it is the fruits of the Spirit that Jesus imparts when we allow Him into our hearts.  Love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance. Each of these is in the life of the converted Christian as long as Jesus is in the heart.

Now the idea of perfection in relationship to Adam and Eve takes on a new meaning. Can the fruits of the Spirit grow? Can they be more abudant? Yes. This ought to give some food for thought.  

Richard

[Ron Lambert]

There is a bit of a puzzle involving the placement of the golden altar of incense. This is of concern to me, because I conclude from my study of the prophecy of the seven trumpets that the vignette of the angel with the censer before the golden altar of incense in Revelation 8:3-5 is designed to establish when the seven trumpets sound.

Some people claim that this vignette took place in the first apartment. They point out that Exodus 30:6 locates the altar of incense "before the veil that is before the ark of the Testimony" (NKJV), which would indicate that whatever in the Heavenly sanctuary corresponds to the altar of incense must likewise be in the Holy Place, and therefore is involved with Christ's ministry in the first compartment, and not His Final Atonement ministry in the second compartment.

But we must also consider the following Bible passage:

"A tabernacle was set up.  In its first room were the lampstand, the table and the consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place.  Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant."—Heb. 9:2-4 (NIV)

This text says plainly that the golden altar of incense was in the second apartment with the Ark of the Covenant. How can both Exodus 30:6 and Hebrews 9:4 be true?

Paul, whom we assume wrote Hebrews, knew full well exactly how the furniture of the sanctuary was arranged. It is likely He was taking due note of the way the Ark of the Covenant and the golden altar of incense were originally set up together, as we read in Exodus 40:5: "You shall also set the altar of gold for the incense before the ark of the Testimony" (NKJV). This indicates that the two were associated together at the beginning. The last part of the verse indicates that a screen was set up between them AFTERWARD.

In verse 26, we are told that after the permanent veil was set up to hide the Ark from view, Moses located the golden altar of incense outside of the veil.  As long as the veil existed, it served as a boundary that located the altar in the first compartment.  The veil was necessary because no sinner, including the earthly high priest who was still sinful, could approach the visible presence of God and live. The prayers of sinners cannot be presented to God without the intercession of the True High Priest, and without the incense which represented Christ's imputed righteousness.

But even then, despite the veil, the golden altar was still "before the Ark," because it was the closest item of furniture to it.  In Leviticus 16:18 the altar is said to be "before the Lord".

The golden altar of incense was involved in the yearly Day of Atonement ministry of the high priest, for on that day the priest applied blood to the horns of this altar, as well as to the horns of the Ark (see Lev. 16:18).  And without the cloud of incense from the altar passing over the top of the veil and filling the Most Holy Place, the high priest could not enter the Most Holy Place and live, if the Shekinah glory of God should be manifested upon the Mercy Seat.

When Jesus died on the Cross, "the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom." (Mark 15:38)  We must recall that the earthly was designed by God to be a shadow of the Heavenly. So this tearing in two of the veil on earth must signify something similar happening in the sanctuary in Heaven. Indeed, at the same time the veil was rent in two on earth, the veil separating the Holy from the Most Holy Place (or whatever in the Heavenly sanctuary corresponds to the veil) was removed, as the following passage indicates:

"But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance.  The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been DISCLOSED as long as the first tabernacle was still standing." —Heb. 9:7 (NIV; emphasis supplied)

Although the earthly sanctuary was not destroyed until 70 A.D., in the sight of God, when the veil was rent in twain at Christ's death, the earthly sanctuary ceased to stand. After that, the golden altar of incense in the Heavenly sanctuary appeared directly before the Ark of the Covenant where God's throne is, without a screen or veil in between. Now humanity has a High Priest who is sinless, and can enter into the visible presence of God and live.

The golden altar of incense is involved in Jesus' Final Atonement ministry.  Jesus must present the prayers of His people who are seeking to receive the blotting out of sins, mingled with the merit of His own righteousness.  This is the purpose of His Final Atonement ministry, and it cannot be accomplished without the altar of incense and what it represents.

Ron Lambert

[This message has been edited by Ron Lambert (edited 06-21-2001).]

[Richard Myers]

Brother Ron, welcome!  

I have some questions similar to yours, but I am not sure that I see some of the verses you have presented in the same light. We shall get to them, but first I would like to better understand where you want to go with this. You say "This is the purpose of His Final    Atonement ministry, and it cannot be accomplished without the altar of incense and what it represents."

Could you explain in some detail what you mean?  

Thanks,      Richard

[jherbertthompson]

Brother's and Sister.  Brother's Lambert & Myers...I do not agree that the there is a fracture in the accounts portrayed in
Exodus and Hebrews...On closer look, you will find that in the Exodus 30 account; the Alter of Incense was to be placed "in front of the veil, behind the Mercy Seat"...this would place the Alter exactly where Paul places it in Hebrews 9.

The New Interpreter's Bible Comentary [1998];
regarding Hebrews 9:4, interprets: "the Golden Alter of Incense [v.4]" traditionally "placed to the rear of the Holy Place near the curtain..."

Patriarchs and Prophets, page 353 says this: "In the offering of incense the priest was brought more directly into the presence of God than in any other act of the daily ministration.  As the inner veil of the sanctuary did not extend to the top of the building, the Glory of God, which was manifested above the Mercy Seat, was partially visible from the first apartment."
There is still more at the end of the above paragraph, and the beginning of the next...I think they may even more fully expound on the
matter even more.

It is also interesting to note that there is also a similarity in Christ as the High Priest first going from the Holy Place into the Most Holy Place carring the Censure of incense...Then as the Book of Life is closed, and He [Jesus] leaves the Mercy Seat forever, He throws down the Censure and declares those final words; "he that is holy, let him be holy still..."

Maybe someone else could pick this up, I find it an interesting question.

Ya'll have a great weekend...I probably won't be back until Sunday at the earliest, so a Happy Sabbath to all!

Your brother in Christ.

 

[Richard Myers]

Brother Herbert, while we are awaiting Brother Ron's reply, let me ask you why it is that the high preist took the censor into the most holy place?

Richard

[Ron Lambert]

Richard, you asked me to expand on what I meant by saying that the golden altar of incense and what it represents are essential to the final atonement ministry of Christ. This is a large subject, right at the heart of Adventism, that eventually expands to encompass everything we teach. I will confine my explanation to what is represented by the incense, and how this impacts the role of the people on the Day of Atonement, and the final atonement ministry of Christ for His people.

Following are a few statements from Ellen G. White that show how she discussed these things, so at least you will be able to see that I am not making up something new. After that, I will establish these same essential points and develop them a little further from Scripture alone.

"The incense, ascending with the prayers of Israel, represents the merits and intercession of Christ, His perfect righteousness, which through faith is imputed to His people, and which can alone make the worship of sinful beings acceptable to God. Before the veil of the most holy place was an altar of perpetual intercession, before the holy, an altar of continual atonement. By blood and by incense God was to be approached--symbols pointing to the great Mediator, through whom sinners may approach Jehovah, and through whom alone mercy and salvation can be granted to the repentant, believing soul." (Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 353)

"We are now living in the great day of atonement. In the typical service, while the high priest was making the atonement for Israel, all were required to afflict their souls by repentance of sin and humiliation before the Lord, lest they be cut off from among the people. In like manner, all who would have their names retained in the book of life should now, in the few remaining days of their probation, afflict their souls before God by sorrow for sin and true repentance. There must be deep, faithful searching of heart." (The Great Controversy, p. 489)

"The work of the investigative judgment and the blotting out of sins is to be accomplished before the second advent of the Lord. Since the dead are to be judged out of the things written in the books, it is impossible that the sins of men should be blotted out until after the judgment at which their cases are to be investigated. But the apostle Peter distinctly states that the sins of believers will be blotted out 'when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; and He shall send Jesus Christ.' Acts 3:19, 20." (The Great Controversy, p. 485)
___________________________________

The above makes it clear that the incense represents the righteousness of Christ that must be mingled with all our prayers, for them to be acceptable to God. Additionally, there is a special work of prayer on the part of God's people, called for on the Day of Atonement. We must make sure that all our sins are confessed and go beforehand to judgment, so we can be beneficiaries of the "blotting out of sins." I will also touch on what that signifies.

We begin in Scripture with the type:

"For on that day the priest shall make atonement for you, to cleanse you, that you may be clean from all your sins before the Lord….then he shall make atonement for the Holy Sanctuary, and he shall make atonement for the tabernacle of meeting and for the altar, and he shall make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly." Leviticus 16:30, 33 (NKJV)

Notice that this Day of Atonement was to be for the purpose not only of cleansing the sanctuary, but for the purpose of cleansing the people. The object of this cleansing was to make the people clean from all their sins before the Lord. In other words, their sins were to be blotted out. (See Isaiah 44:22)

The following text tells us that the people had a role to play in the Day of Atonement Service. They were to participate by resting from their works, and by afflicting their souls—meaning they were to search their hearts and make sure that every sin was confessed:

"And you shall do no work on that same day, for it is the Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the Lord your God. For any person who is not afflicted in soul on that same day shall be cut off from his people." Leviticus 23:28, 29 (NKJV)

The prayers of the people to rid themselves of anything sinful separating them from God, must be mingled with the incense of Christ's righteousness in order for them to be presentable before God. So closely is the righteousness of Christ identified with the prayers of His people, that in Revelation 5:8 we read of "…golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." (NKJV)

Daniel 8:14 gives us the time prophecy which tells us when the time for the beginning of the Antitypical Day of Atonement came, and it also tells us that there is a sanctuary cleansing that will be involved.

"And he said to me, 'For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed.'" Daniel 8:14 (NKJV)

In the New Testament, on the Day of Pentecost, Peter looked forward to a future blotting out of sins:

"Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before" Acts 3:19, 20 (NKJV)

Note that this blotting out of sins is associated with "times of refreshing…from the presence of the Lord." Scripture tells us that just as the baptism of the Spirit that came upon the disciples at the time of Pentecost was the "former rain," so also there will be a "latter rain" outpouring of the Holy Spirit (see Joel 2:23).

What consequence might there be for the people of God as they receive the final atonement with its blotting out of sins? What special benefit might the latter rain outpouring of the Holy Spirit confer? In ancient Israel, the effect of the "latter rain" was to ripen the crops for the harvest. So also spiritually, the purpose of the latter rain outpouring of the Holy Spirit must be to bring His people to the point where they are ready for the Lord to come.

Now, what might be the nature of the work that the Holy Spirit will do for God's people when they receive the Latter Rain?

When Christians first come to Christ and begin their Christian walk, they receive a kind of "seal" that is administered by the Holy Spirit:

"…do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." Ephesians 4:30 (NKJB)

But Scripture also tells us about a special end-time seal of God that the people of God will receive, as they prove faithful in the test over the mark of the beast (see Revelation 7:2-4). It seems reasonable to conclude that the seal of Ephesians 4:30 is the seal of the former rain ministration of the Holy Spirit, and the seal of Revelation 7:2-4 is the seal of the latter rain ministration of the Holy Spirit.

What are the effects that this might have on the people of God? What changes might it produce in them? A hint is given in Hebrews:

"For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. " Hebrews 10:1, 2 (NKJV)

This suggests that when the believers receive the cleansing and blotting out of sins typified by the yearly Day of Atonement service, there is a change in their consciousness of sins. Let us consider the new covenant promise in its fullness:

"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more. " Hebrews 8:10-12 (NKJV)

What will it mean for this gospel promise of the covenant to be received in its final fullness? Notice the last clause. If God forgets our sins, then can we still remember them?

We also have the promise that Jesus will purge and purify His people:

"But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire And like launderer's soap. He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver;  He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver,  That they may offer to the Lord An offering in righteousness." Malachi 3:2, 3 (NKJV)

Now, this does not mean that God's people will be given sinless natures at this time. Scripture plainly tells us that our bodies are not changed until the Second Coming (see 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Nor does it necessarily mean that God's people will have amnesia, when they receive the blotting out of sins, they have no more consciousness of sins, and God remembers their sins no more.

Rather, it is the essence of sin itself, the attitude of unbelief toward God, that will be removed, as the people of God become fully and completely converted. While sin leads to transgression of the law, by which sin can be outwardly identified, the inward nature of sin is lack of faith. Thus we have Paul's definition of sin:

"…whatever is not from faith is sin." Romans 14:23 (last part; NKJV)

Paul also said that unbelief was the reason why ancient Israel failed to enter into the covenant promises:

"Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief….Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." Hebrews 4: 6, 11 (KJV)

In the above, the Greek word apeitheia, translated "unbelief" in the KJV and as "disobedience" in other versions, refers to an attitude of the heart, as is apparent when we consult Thayer's Bible Dictionary:
543 apeitheia {ap-i'-thi-ah}
from 545; TDNT - 6:11,818; n f
AV - unbelief 4, disobedient 3; 7
1) obstinacy, obstinate opposition to the divine will

It is unbelief, or lack of faith, that leads to disobedience.

Jesus expressed what His real concern would be when He returns to receive His people. He did not say He would be concerned whether He would find people who were perfect in every respect. Rather, He asked:

"… when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:8 (NKJV)

Our problem presently is that we are not fully converted. Our faith is not perfect. Our hearts are still divided between belief and unbelief. Thus the Psalmist prayed:

"Teach me Your way, O Lord;  I will walk in Your truth;  Unite my heart to fear Your name." Psalms 86:11 (NKJV)

This is what we need. For our hearts to be united, so that we are whole-hearted, and our faith is untainted by distrust of God. If we have such faith, then we will truly be satisfying the righteous requirement of God. The Law of God is summarized thusly:

"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength." Deuteronomy 6:5 (NKJV)

When the angels and intelligent beings on other worlds see that we former rebels on earth have become true patriots, then they will welcome us into the kingdom of Heaven, confident of our fitness.

The conclusion of these things is simply this: the purpose of Jesus' second apartment, Day of Atonement ministry in the sanctuary in Heaven, is to perfect the faith of His people. In this work, we must cooperate, actively seeking to rid our hearts and lives of every taint of sinful unbelief toward God, cherishing no sinful practice, and refusing no reform He asks of us as His Spirit leads us to discover all the things that may be in the way, hindering our relationship with Him. Like ancient Israel on the Day of Atonement, we must afflict our souls as our High Priest ministers for us. Our earnest prayers must ascend, mingled with the incense of the righteousness of Christ, as He goes about finishing the work in us.

Ron Lambert

[Richard Myers]

Happy Sabbath, all that are reading! 

Brother Ron,  I am going to start with your last post first and then we can go back to the one before.  Thank you for taking the time to give us the overview.  I began to make note of the difference in translations, but it is not important at this point.  I appreciate much of what you have shared and agree with most of it. It is very profound as we see what God will do for His people.

There is a teaching within the church today that puts into the future the need to obey the law of God. The teaching states that prior to this "last generation" the 144,000, Christians do not need to have a pure heart. This is to say they still have "unbelief" buried in the soul.  Ty Gibson put it this way. The Christian prior to the "last generation" still has pride in his heart he does not know about. It is the final generation that will be clean.

It appears that this is what you are saying. If I am wrong, please correct me.

[Ron Lambert]

Brother Richard, I am not acquainted with what Ty Gibson has said, so I cannot comment on that. As for the idea that God's people will have sinful unbelief buried in their hearts until the final generation who receive the seal of God, I would have to say that is not exactly what I believe. In general, there may seem to be some truth to it; but the problem is in the details.

There is absolutely nothing preventing any of us now from walking with God as did Enoch, or from being whole-heartedly faithful as was Elijah. But most of us, as a community of believers, do have the problem of incomplete conversion, and lack of whole-hearted faith. We still need to have God "unite" our "heart," as the Psalmist prayed in Psalms 86:11, 12.

Were Paul, or Peter, or James, or the other apostles alive today, I believe they would probably be fully ready to receive the special end-time seal of God.

In other words, the experience of having perfect faith is not something that cannot be obtained prior to the Latter Rain outpouring of the Holy Spirit, which brings to us the benefits of the blotting out of sins.

However, Jesus is now working to perfect the faith of a whole community of believers. The time of the firstfruits is passed. He is looking toward the final harvest. When Jesus has a whole community of believers who are fully converted, whose hearts are united in faith in Him, then the sealing angel can come and do his work, putting the seal of God on the final generation who will be God's faithful witnesses during the final conflict. The blotting out of sins and the Latter Rain outpouring of the Holy Spirit cannot come before this, even though individuals may be ready.

Having sinful bodies is not the problem. Otherwise sin would be God's fault, for not transforming our bodies now.

Nor is it right to say that God's people cannot gain the victory over unbelief until the blotting out of sins has taken place, for that would again imply that unbelief (which is the real essence of sin), is God's fault, because we cannot help but doubt until He gives us something He is withholding now.

We can become fully converted now. The work of sanctification, which is really the work of growing in faith until we are whole-hearted and single-minded in our faith in God, can be completed now.

Bible prophecy indicates that a whole community will not reach the point where their faith is perfected, until the time of the blotting out of sins, and they receive the Latter Rain outpouring of the Spirit (which is given to ripen the grain for the harvest). Prophecy indicates this, because this is the way it will happen, and God knows in advance that it will be so. He knows it will take the special benefit of the Latter Rain to bring this experience to an entire community.

What we need to do is prepare for the sealing, by asking the Lord to continue our conversion. This will require our intelligent and deliberate consent, as we make choices to let go of things that come between the Lord and us. But the transforming power that kindles faith in our hearts is God's.

Ron Lambert

[Richard Myers]

Brother Ron, what you say is interesting. If I do understand what you are saying, I would disagree with two important points. You say "When Jesus has a whole community of believers who are fully converted, whose hearts are united in faith in Him, then the sealing angel can come and do his work, putting the seal of God on the final generation who will be God's faithful witnesses during the final conflict. The blotting out of sins and the Latter Rain
outpouring of the Holy Spirit cannot come before this, even though individuals may be ready."

I have never understood that the Latter Rain had to wait until all of God's people were converted. I understand the Latter Rain to be the agent through which many conversions will take place. Also, I understand the Latter Rain began to fall in the past, so would this not would prove that your statement is incorrect?

More importantly I disagree with what I think you are saying about conversion. Let me ask a question to get a better picture. You say "we cannot help but doubt until He gives us something He is withholding now."  My brother where do read in the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy that God withholds something we need to keep from doubting Him? Also, it appears that you will give salvation to those that are not "fully converted." You say there is a  "problem of incomplete conversion" and "We can become fully converted now. The work of sanctification, which is really the work of growing in faith until we are whole-hearted
and single-minded in our faith in God, can be completed now."  It seems as if you allow for a class that are somewhat "converted" that are not whole-hearted Christians. Will you give this class who have not fully surrendered to Jesus, who still have "unbelief" and pride in their heart, eternal life?

I may be misunderstanding what you are saying, but if you could clarify my concerns if I am wrong it will be much appeciated.  

Richard

[Ron Lambert]

Brother Richard, when I said "we cannot help but doubt until He gives us something He is withholding now" I was stating what we might be able to claim IF it were true that we cannot be rid of our unbelief before we receive the Latter Rain, and are sealed, etc. The point I was trying to make is the exact opposite, that such a position could not be true, because it would lead to concluding that God is at fault for our lack of whole-hearted belief.

I know, various people at various times have made claims that the Latter Rain was falling. No, that was still part of the Former Rain. The Latter Rain is a special benefit that comes from the Blotting Out of Sins during the Judgment of the Living. When the Latter Rain comes, it will be whole orders of magnitude beyond anything we have experienced thus far.

Let me share one of my favorite texts about how God's people will be when they receive the Latter Rain. It is found in Zechariah 12:8: "In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them." (NKJV) This says to me that when the Latter Rain comes, those among us who are shy and timid will become as bold as David, and those who are already bold by nature will become like the Angel of the Lord. That is an encouragement to anyone, I think, who feels they would never have the nerve to stand boldly for truth against great opposition during the final conflict.

I would say that virtually all of us right now are only partially converted. The process of conversion does not take place in a moment, when we first come to the Cross. The process of continuing, ever-deepening conversion is in fact the whole experience of sanctification. This is what sanctification is, becoming more thoroughly converted. God is willing to make every change needed in us, but He requires our informed consent at every step along the way, because love cannot be forced, and for this reason He will not violate our freedom of choice.

The whole problem of the people of Laodicea is not perceiving that they are still not fully converted. That is our problem. We think we are spiritually rich and increased with goods, we think we are very sanctified. But we fail to realize how we have been keeping the gospel principles in the "outer court" of our hearts, and we have not yet acquired the genuine, whole-hearted faith and love (represented by the gold) that we need to have.

Ron Lambert

[Allan F]

Hello brother Lambert

I appreciate your postings. Much of what you are saying I agree with, but sometimes I don't understand what you mean. One example is about 'conversion'.

When you mentioned that you beleive that christians are only partially converted, and that sanctification is a process where we are to become more and more converted, what do you mean?
By your use of the term 'conversion' do you mean that a lack of full conversion is manifested by a lack of obedience to the commandments of God? If this is your view, how will you explain these statements from SOP:

What is sanctification? It is to give one's self wholly and without reserve - soul, body, and spirit - to God; to deal justly; to love mercy, and walk humbly with God; to know and to do the will of God without regard to self or self-interest; to be heavenly-minded, pure, unselfish, holy, and without spot or stain (OHC 212).

True sanctification is nothing more or less than to love God with all the heart, to walk in His commandments and ordinances blameless (FW 87).

Looking forward to your answer.

Allan F

[Ron Lambert]

Hello, Brother Allan, you asked me to explain what I mean in terms of the Spirit of Prophecy. So here are some relevant quotes:

"True conversion, true sanctification, will be the cause of the change in our views and our feelings toward one another and toward God....We must increase in faith." — Manuscript Releases Volume Four, page 348, paragraph 2.

Notice how in the above, Ellen G. White equates sanctification with conversion, and ties it in with the idea that our faith must increase. Now, if she says our faith must increase, then that must mean we still have some unbelief. And since "whatsover is not of faith is sin," (Romans 14:23) then she is implying that we still have sin in our hearts, since she says our faith must increase.

Now consider these next three SOP statements, remembering that Ellen G. White equated sanctification with conversion:

"Let us be growing Christians. We are not to stand still. We are to be in advance today of what we were yesterday; every day learning to be more trustful, more fully relying upon Jesus. Thus we are to grow up. You do not at one bound reach perfection; sanctification is the work of a lifetime." — Selected Messages Book 3, page 193, paragraph 1.

"Our sanctification is God's object in all His dealing with us." — Selected Messages Book 3, page 202, paragraph 2.

"Sanctification is not a work of a day or a year, but of a lifetime. Without continual efforts and constant activity, there can be no advancement in the divine life, no attainment of the victor's crown. We are doing up work for the judgment, and it is unsafe to work in our own wisdom and trust to our own judgment." — Testimonies for the Church Volume Three, page 325, paragraph 2.

Now here are some SOP statements where Ellen G. White explicitly is talking about our continuing need for conversion:

"As a people we are to be reconverted, our lives sanctified to declare the truth as it is in Jesus." — Testimonies for the Church Volume Nine, page 63, paragraph 1.

"We need now to be reconverted, that angels of God may cooperate with us, making a sacred impression upon the minds of those for whom we labor." — Selected Messages Book 1, page 167, paragraph 4.

"There is no such thing as an instantaneous sanctification. It is an every-day work. Says Paul, 'I die daily' (1 Cor. 15:31). He received a CONVERSION DAILY to God. As the truth and Spirit of God revealed to him the defects in his character, he put away his wrong, died to self, and cleansed himself 'from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God' (2 Cor. 7:1)." — The Upward Look, page 231, paragraph 3 (caps supplied for emphasis).

The following statement refers to what Jesus can do when He has a community of people who are fully consecrated:

"Why, the Lord can do more in one hour than we can do in a whole lifetime, and when He sees that His people are fully consecrated, let me tell you, a great work will be done in a short time, and the message of truth is to be carried into the dark places of the earth, where it has never been proclaimed." — Manuscript Releases Volume Five, pages 347-8.

Ron Lambert