1844

[M.A. Crawford]

A question was asked in a post dated 02-17-2001 at 06:11 PM concerning one of my posts which read: "Did I misread you somehow? And it was signed "ab." My response to this question is I don't know if you misread me or not. If you could supply me with the forum, topic, date, and time of the statement in question, as well as the statement or statements, I could perhaps clarify any misunderstanding that possibly occurred.

M.A.    

[adventbeliever]

Yes brother Crawford! In your posts dated 04-17-2000 and 07-21-2000 and 10-24-2000 in this thread you stated that it is not necessary for salvation to understand completely the sanctuary teaching though you admitted it to be the foundation pillar of the Advent Movement. But what puzzled me is that you added that 1844 is the type of teaching that can be doubted! The foundation and central pillar of the Advent Movement can be doubted!??? The movement that was most free from human imperfection! "Of all the great religious movements since the days of the apostles, none have been more free from human imperfection and the wiles of Satan than was that of the autumn of 1844. Even now, after the lapse of many years, all who shared in that movement and who have stood firm upon the platform of truth still feel the holy influence of that blessed work and bear witness that it was of God." G.C.401.

Please tell me how we can reconcile the fact that it was the foundation and central pillar of our faith, that it was of God, more free from human error since the days of the apostles, and your statement that it is the type of teaching that we can afford to doubt!!!???  

[This message has been edited by adventbeliever (edited 02-20-2001).]

[M.A. Crawford]

"Yes, brother Crawford! In your posts dated 04-17-2000 and 07-21-2000 and 10-24-2000 in this thread you stated that it is not necessary for salvation to understand completely the sanctuary teaching though you admitted it to be the foundation pillar of the Advent Movement. But what puzzled me is that you added that 1844 is the type of teaching that can be doubted...."

In rereading the above mentioned posts in question, I found that I never stated, as you put it, that "1844 is the type of teaching that can be doubted." What I did say in one post dated 04-17-200 was "There are many statements in the Bible and the writings of Ellen G. White that can leave room for one to doubt." I said that to emphasize the fact that because individuals have the power to choose, people generally believe what they want to believe, oftentimes in spite of the preponderance of the evidence to the contrary.

I believe there will be many people saved who do not "understand completely" the Sanctuary doctrine because I do not believe salvation hinges on this. What I do believe salvation hinges on is ADHERING COMPLETELY to the principles of salvation as presented in the Bible and ordering one's life after them and the example Christ left for us to follow.

It is a good thing to be able to understand the Sanctuary doctrine as taught by the church, but I do not believe one will be lost solely because of one's lack of understanding of it. WHAT I DO BELIEVE is that one will be lost if one does not order one's life after the Word of God and the Living Example of Jesus Christ. These are the ONLY TWO criteria I know for salvation.

M.A.  

[L.Picard]

Thanks for answering my questions brother Crawford and for clarifying. However I cannot imagine living up to the faith that is required of us in these last days without having an understanding of what it means to live in the antitypical day of Atonement. Jesus will not leave the Most Holy Place until He has a people whose sins have been sent beforehand to judgment and who are reflecting Him fully! For example, if we do not believe that our characters are to be perfected before He can return, we will neither expect it nor aim for it and continue to delay His coming. If we do not understand what Jesus is doing in the most holy place, what He is expecting from us, how can we co-operate with Him in order for His purpose to be accomplished in us? I say that it is critical for the people of God who are living in this great antitypical day of Atonement to understand how we can either hasten or delay His coming.

In The Great Controversy, p.458, we are told there that "It was not the will of God that the coming of Christ should be so long delayed and His people should remain so many years in this world of sin and sorrow. But unbelief separated them from God... If all who had labored unitedly in the work in 1844, had received the third angel's message and proclaimed it in the power of the Holy Spirit, the Lord would have wrought mightily with their efforts. A flood of light would have been shed upon the world. Years ago, the inhabitants of the earth would have been warned, the closing work completed, and Christ would have come for the redemption of His people."

If this could be said of 1844, what about now? Over 150 years have elapsed since then and we are still here in this world of sin and sorrow! Something has gone wrong. We have not been co-operating with our High Priest and the work has been long delayed. We are living on borrowed time. Many times the handles on the clock have been turned back.

"The subject of the SANCTURAY and the INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT should be CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD by the people of God. ALL NEED A KNOWLEDGE FOR THEMSELVES OF THE POSITION AND WORK OF THEIR GREAT HIGH PRIEST. OTHERWISE IT WILL BE IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM TO EXERCISE THE FAITH WHICH IS ESSENTIAL AT THIS TIME OR TO OCCUPY THE POSITION WHICH GOD DESIGNS THEM TO FILL." G.C.488.

In all due respect, brother Crawford, I believe that the view which you have expressed does contradict this last statement! Notice how it is said that All need a knowledge for themselves of the sanctuary and the investigative judgment or it will be IMPOSSIBLE for them to exercise the faith which is ESSENTIAL at this time or to OCCUPY the POSITION which God would have them fill!

Now if that is so, how could anything be more important than to understand these things? How can you and I live in harmony with God's will if we cannot exercise the faith that is essential for this time? How can we occupy the position that God would have us fill if we do not CLEARLY understand the subject of the sanctuary and the investigative jugment? These are questions that none of us can afford to ignore!    

Back to you brother Crawford! L. Picard  

[This message has been edited by L.Picard (edited 02-21-2001).]

[Richard Myers]

Brother Picard, I think I can help a little here, if I might. Brother Crawford is not taking exception with the importance of the subject, but as I understand was only making comment on salvation. Ellen White's statement appears to be saying not that we will lose salvation, but that we cannot occupy the place that Jesus intended for us.

There seems to be a slight error in one of your statements and it will make a difference in your understanding of the work to be done after probation closes for the world. You say "Jesus will not leave the Most Holy Place until He has a people whose sins have been sent beforehand to judgment and who are reflecting Him fully!"  As amazing as it may be, the Lord will leave the Most Holy Place in heaven and probation will close, yet there is a work to be done in the characters of the 144,000. They do not "fully reflect Jesus" yet. They must endure trial by fire before they will fully reflect our Saviour. The time of trouble such as never was will burn the dross away and then they will "fully reflect Jesus." Then Jesus will return to take them home. Then the character of God will have been fully vindicated. What a subject! What s day!!    Let us hasten that day!

In His love and grace,   Richard

[L.Picard]

My dear brother Richard, you are right. Speaking of the time of Jacob's trouble, I read: "Their earthliness must be consumed, that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected." G.C.621. Amazing! So when probation closes and Jesus pronounces the words, "He that is holy let him be holy; and he that is righteous let him be righteous," does not mean that these are reflecting Him fully! They are but not fully! It seems a bit confusing though when one considers that the latter rain brings the blade of Christian character to perfection!  "As the dew and the rain are given first to cause the seed to germinate, and then to ripen the harvest, so the Holy Spirit is given to carry forward from one stage to another the process of spiritual growth. The ripening of the grain represents the completion of the work of God's grace in the soul. By the power of the Holy Spirit the moral image is to be perfected in the character. We are to be wholly transformed into the likeness of Christ. The latter rain, ripening earth's harvest, represents the spiritual grace that prepares the church for the coming of the Son of man." T.M.506.

This work is accomplished before probation closes! Jacob's trouble is the "crucible" which will remove the dross of earthliness. Every earthly support will be removed from God's people. "As dangers surround them, and despair seizes upon them, they must depend solely upon the merits of the atonement... None will ever perish while they do this." P.P.203.

As to whether it is important or not to clearly understand the subject of the sanctuary and the investigative judgment, I will leave it to everyone to make up his own mind by reading the statement from The Great Controversy p.488. After all thats what it means to "fear" God!   God bless!

[This message has been edited by L.Picard (edited 02-21-2001).]

[L.Picard]

Does it affect our salvation if we do not clearly understand the subject of the sanctuary and the investigative judgment?

"It is those who by faith follow Jesus in the great work of the atonement who receive the benefits of His mediation in their behalf, while those who reject the light which brings to view this work of ministration are not benefited thereby... When Jesus at His ascension entered by His own blood into the heavenly sanctuary to shed upon His disciples the blessings of His mediation, the Jews were left in total darkness to continue their useless sacrifices and offerings... The condition of the unbelieving Jews illustrates the condition of the careless and unbelieving among professed Christians, who are willingly ignorant of the work of our merciful High Priest. In the typical service, when the high priest entered the most holy place, all Israel were required to gather about the sanctuary and in the most solemn manner humble their souls before God, that they might receive the pardon of their sins and not be cut off from the congregation. HOW MUCH MORE ESSENTIAL IN THIS ANTITYPICAL DAY OF ATONEMENT THAT WE UNDERSTAND THE WORK OF OUR HIGH PRIEST AND KNOW WHAT DUTIES ARE REQUIRED OF US." G.C.430,431.

"We are living in the great Day of Atonement, and it is now time (high time) that everyone should repent before God, confess his sins, and by living faith rest upon the merit of a crucified and risen Savior." T.M.224,225.

[Harry Elliott]

adventbeliever, as you understand it, what was the sanctuary teaching that they denied?  Remember, this was 1844.

[M.A. Crawford]

Bro. Picard, in your post dated 02-22-01, you quoted Ellen G.White as saying "...HOW MUCH MORE ESSENTIAL IN THIS ANTITYPICAL DAY OF ATONEMENT THAT WE UNDERSTAND THE WORK OF OUR HIGH PRIEST AND KNOW WHAT DUTIES ARE REQUIRED OF US." In  spite of your highlighted emphasis of this Ellen G. White statement, I still do not see where she stated that one would be lost if one did not understand the Sanctuary doctrine.

M.A.

[L.Picard]

Brother Dugald, did you not notice the sentence just before: "In the typical service, when the high priest entered the most holy place, all Israel were required to gather about the sanctuary and in the most solemn manner humble their souls before God, THAT THEY MIGHT NOT BE CUT OFF FROM THE CONGREGATION." G.C.430,431.

Then, right after saying this, she applies what she has just said to the Antitypical day of Atonement in which we live, and says: "HOW MUCH MORE ESSENTIAL in this antitypical Day of Atonement that we UNDERSTAND the work of our High Priest and know what duties are required of us." And why is that? THAT WE MAY NOT BE CUT OFF FROM THE CONGREGATION, in other words, BE LOST!

For more evidence, on page 488 she says: "The subject of the sanctuary and the investigative judgment should be clearly understood by the people of God. All need a knowledge for themselves of the position and work of their great High Priest."

Why? The next sentence tells us why: "Otherwise it will be IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM TO EXERCISE THE FAITH WHICH IS ESSENTIAL AT THIS TIME OR TO OCCUPY THE POSITION WHICH GOD DESIGNS THEM TO FILL...

And then the next sentence says, "EVERY INDIVIDUAL HAS A SOUL TO SAVE OR TO LOSE." G.C.488.

Brother Dugald, What do you think? I realize spiritual things are spiritually discerned but it would seem to me that these words are very straitforward.  Where is the difficulty? I can't possibly imagine how she could have stated it more plainly!  

Is she not saying in clear and unmistakable terms that if we do not have a clear understanding of these vital subjects, we cannot exercise the faith which is essential at this time? And does not the Bible also say that "Without faith--the faith which is essential to exercise at this time--it is impossible to please God"?    

 

[This message has been edited by L.Picard (edited 02-28-2001).]

[L.Picard]

Harry, they denied the light which was at the beginning of the path, the light of the first and second angel's messages. They began saying that it was not God that had led them. In other words they declared that their understanding of the 2300 day prophecy was a mistake and that the whole thing had been of the devil after they had been convinced that it was of God. They fell off the path one by one. There are many today who are doing the very same thing. It is a very solemn thing to reject light, or to call light darkness because one always ends up calling darkness light! Does that answer your question? I hope it does!    

[This message has been edited by L.Picard (edited 02-28-2001).]

[M.A. Crawford]

My point, Bro. Picard, is Mrs. White does not use the words "one would be lost" anywhere in the statements you quoted in reference to understanding the Sanctuary doctrine. These are your words and not hers.

M.A.

[Harry Elliott]

L.P.
Did they really say that, “ the whole thing had been of the devil”?  She doesn’t seem to say so:

“ Others rashly denied the light behind them and said that it was not God who had led them out so far.”

“It was not of God” could mean  a well-intentioned crank, rather than an agent of the devil .  He had failed the test, after all.  When people had questioned his predictions, he said something like, “If  He doesn’t come, then you will know that I was a “megalomaniac”.  That’s the term he used.

He taught that the earth was the sanctuary that would be cleansed at the end  of the 2300 days. That’s all the sanctuary doctrine that there was for his followers to believe.  (Wasn’t it?) They could easily concleude that THAT sanctuary doctrine was not from God, believing that God doesn’t lie.

Robert Olson of the EGW Estate has written that Mrs. White MISUNDERSTOOD the vision!  I wonder how much of it he was referring to.  

[M.A. Crawford]

I was moved by the following story that appeared on the opening page of this week's Sabbath School lesson and was impressed to comment on it.

"'From childhood,' she said, 'I was told that the judgment was going on in heaven right now and that I'd never know when my name would come up. And when it did, if I were not absolutely and utterly perfect, then my name would be blotted out of the book of life, and I would be eternally lost. But because I would never know the outcome, I'd continue struggling to be absolutely perfect, even if it were too late to be saved and my name had already been blotted out."

I told an individual in another forum that many people have been frightened away from this church because they listened to misguided men and women who portrayed God as some sadistic judge who can hardly wait to punish us in hellfire for our sins. Nothing could be further from the truth. GOD IS LOVE (1 John 4:. He is the SUPREME EXAMPLE of what love is. While we were yet ENEMIES OF THE THRONE Christ died for us. His great and grand purpose in His Plan of Salvation is TO SAVE US, not destroy us.

It is the devil who would have us to misunderstand the nature of the Investigative Judgment and its relationship to 1844. He knows that if he can get us to deny the tenets of our faith, very soon there would be NO FAITH LEFT TO DENY. The Bible very clearly tells us that judgment must begin at the house of God (1 Peter 4:17). If one does not use the word "investigative" here IT DOES NOT NEGATE THE FACT that judgment is going to begin first with the house of God. This is what began in 1844. Daniel 8:14 tells us that "Unto 2300 days, then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." We know that Christ did not return to the earth as had been  assumed by many, therefore some other very important work of God had to commence.

We learn in the Book of Hebrews there is a Heavenly Sanctuary, of which the earthly was but a type or copy of the heavenly one. When we study Hebrews very carefully we learn that Christ is performing a work there as our High Priest. If the earthly was a copy of the heavenly, when we carefully read Leviticus 16 we discover the work the earthly high priest performed there was a work of cleansing of the earthly sanctuary. This cleansing involved a JUDGING OF THE PEOPLE because they were to PREPARE THEMSELVES to come before the Lord just as WE NOW must prepare ourselves to come before the Lord because of what is written in 1 Peter 4:17. If the people in Leviticus 16 had not made the necessary spiritual preparation to come before the Lord, they would be "cut off" from God's people and Leviticus 20 makes it quite clear that THEY WOULD BE LOST! Just as we will be today if we have not made the necessary spiritual preparation to divest ourselves of all sin and unrighteousness while our High Priest Jesus Christ maketh intercession for us in he Heavenly Sanctuary.

M.A.

[M.A. Crawford]

"For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." Ecclesiastes 12:14.

"...Fear God and give glory to him: for the hour of his judgment is come...." Revelation 14:7.

Again I say, if one does not use the word "investigative" above with these texts of Scripture, it STILL does not negate the fact that the judgment is going to take place.

"Unto 2300 days, then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." Daniel 8:14.

"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times." Daniel 9:25.

What sanctuary is to be cleansed? As I mentioned in my previous post, we know from the Book of Hebrews that there is a Heavenly Sanctuary of which the earthly was a type or copy of It. In the Heavenly, Christ is performing a work there as our High Priest (Heb. 9:11, 24). Therefore the questions are asked: When do the 2300 days begin? When do they end? What is the work Christ is performing in the Heavenly Sanctuary?  In reference to this time prophecy, Bro. Sutton in an earlier post has provided us with the following information:

"7 weeks as prophetic time symbol equals 49 literal years on the Jewish sacred calendar.
7 x 7 = 49
62 weeks as a prophetic time symbol equals 434 literal years on the Jewish sacred calendar.
62 x 7 = 434
1 week as a prophetic time symbol equals 7 literal years on the Jewish sacred calendar.
1 x 7 = 7
(7 + 62 + 1) = 70 symbolic weeks of time prophecy.
(49 + 434 + 7) = 490 literal years."

The command to build the temple at Jerusalem (3rd decree) was given by Artaxerxes in 457 B.C. (Ezra 7:11-26). Subtracting 457 from 2300 would bring us to the year 1843, of which Bro. Sutton in the same post mentioned above has these remarks:

"1844 Fall - October 22 - 1844. This is the actual human date the 2300 literal years of time distinguished prophecy stops. October 22 that year is when the astronomical calculations occur that tell when the Yom Kippur Day of Atonement is that year. There is no zero year from BC 1 to AD 1 so usual mathematical time lines do not help when moving from BC to AD of a calendar. This is why the original math showed 1843 but was revised in William Miller's preaching to show 1844."

For a more detailed presentation of the Investigative Judgment and 1844 presented above, see Bro. Sutton's post dated 06-14-2000 at 10:36 PM.

The work Christ is performing in the Heavenly Sanctuary is addressed in my previous post.

M.A.

[M.A. Crawford]

With regard to the Investigative Judgment and 1844, an individual in another forum expressed his disbelief in both, and made a comment (quotation) which is followed by my response to him.

"I am not hoping to pass through some investigative judgment starting back in 1844...."

I never cease to be amazed as I observe how the devil can cause individuals who once embraced this truth to all of a sudden deny it. What I (and I hope others) learn from this is the enemy of souls needs ONLY ONE microscopic opening in our belief system and he will take it from there.

Doubt. This is the most powerful tool the old deluder and his agents have to work with today as he leads men and women away from salvation. All he needs to do is get us to doubt JUST ONE POINT of our faith and he will take it from there. If he can get one line of defense to fall, one can rest assured that others will follow. This is why it is ALL OR NONE with God. Ninety-nine and a half just won't do. We must DEMONSTRATE complete faith and trust in God. The Bible tells us, without faith it is impossible to please Him (Heb. 11:6) because God knows the utter futility of so-called faith in Him that has "cracks in the armour" known as doubt. Sooner or later, the devil is going to find them. This is why we are no match for the devil and his sophistry. When we begin dibbling and dabbling around with doubt, we can rest assured we are ON THE DEVIL'S GROUND where he is going to win and we shall be overcome. But when we hold fast to our faith in spite of the cry from others to abandon it, WE REMAIN ON THE LORD'S GROUND where we are going to win.

The shaking is heating up, and many more, unfortunately, are going to be shaken out of this church and realize too late that THEY HAD IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME. But they decided to listen to those with impressive words and pleasing address more so than to sound Biblical doctrine.

M.A.

[Richard Myers]

Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment is come....

How important is it that we understand when the judgment began?

[Wally]

I just noticed this post today.  Some days there is so much activity on the forum (or I am so busy myself) that I miss a lot of posts.

You posed a simple question and I will attempt an answer.  The fact that it is at the very beginning of the 3 angels' messages suggests that it is very important.  If we don't know what the first angel is referring to, whether in time or scope, we won't know when to preach these messages.  One of the reasons the angel gives for fearing God and giving Him glory is the fact that the time of the judgment has arrived.  If it hasn't arrived yet (as some contend), then why does the angel phrase it the way he does, and why preach the 3AM?  If it occurs at death, then there is no point in preaching the messages, because dead people can't fear God or give Him glory.  Giving Him glory means to reflect His character in all things.  Since the judgment has arrived, the reflection of His character is of paramount importance, because our names are going to come up before the Judge.  Also, if we don't understand when the judgment began, we are in danger of losing the sense of urgency inherent in the 3AM.