Author Topic: 1844  (Read 17666 times)

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Richard Myers

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1844
« on: March 09, 2000, 07:03:00 AM »
Something very important happened in 1844 and there is a major division on this subject within the church.  There need not be, for the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy are clear. This truth is a pillar of our faith and is not to be moved an inch.

Let us share these beautful truths that our faith may be anchored even more securely.

What happened in 1844 and why is it important to us as a people?

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In His love and grace,    Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Clive Nevell

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« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2000, 10:53:00 AM »
It does not matter what I think, but what does the Bible say.
Let me recomend a book on this subject.
"1844 Made Simple" by Clifford Goldstein. It is only a small book of about 100 pages. I am not a theologion or even the son of one but I can ubderstand his book. I am a strong supporter of SOP as you have seen from my other posts but in this controversy we should be able to show from the Bible what our belief is. I know that some in the past has used SOP to prove 1844, that is back to front. Show from the Bible and then back it up with SOP and we wil be able to stand as firm as a rock on the subject.
If 1844 is not Biblical then our message is false. Either 1844 is true and we have the truth, or it is false and we have inherited and peddled lies. We have been warned that "everything that can be shaken will be shaken"
We have to understand one basic point. The judgement did not begin in AD 31. Acts 24:25 "He reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgement to come." Rom.2:16 "God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." Heb. 10:30 "The Lord shall judge his people." These are just a few texts that put the judgement in the future. These were written many years after the AD 31. The point may be simple but the judgement did not begin when Christ returned to heaven. So when did it begin? I believe in 1844 at the end of the 2300 days (years). It is probably to great a subject to have an in depth study on this point by point but we can try. It is a fasinating subject, really it is a study of the gospel.

Regards
Clive


Clive Nevell

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« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2000, 03:31:00 AM »
I received a copy of a serman today by mail on the Sanctuary, it is fantastic, everyone should have it. The writer goes on to say how important the Sanctuary Doctrine is and how it is connected to the Great Controversy, as a pattern of Salvation and how it vindicates God's law.
I can agree with him as he states that the most diruptive attacks have always come from within the denomination or from former SDAs.
Usually outside ones are clumsy and unsophiscated. He goes onto say that the most recent attacks on the sanctuary Doctrine are practically indistinguishable from sentiments that are freely expressed by many SDAs today.
1844 is the centre of it all, it falls everything falls.
Regards
Clive

Laurie Mosher

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« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2000, 02:08:00 PM »
   Now I am not a great theologian,so require things in simplicity. The very idea that the Sanctuary doctrine is NOT in the Bible boggles my mind.
  Dan.8:14 tells us about the 2300 days, and verse 17 , I believe, is the key. The vision is to be understood WHEN?
"at the TIME OF THE END.
 Now there are some folk in "our" church who say that this was in the time of Antiochus Ephphanes. (III,IV and V) were all reigning BEFORE A.D....OBVIOUSLY could NOT be in the time of the END. Because AD had not happened yet!!
 AND THEN if we apply the principle of ONE  day in prophecy=1 year,(Numbers 14:34;Ezek 4:6) and utilizing HIS -story (history), we can determine the starting point. We know that Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem in 586BC. We also know that the rebuilding of Jerusalem began in 457 BC.(Dan.9:25 tells us the starting time)
According to my arithmetic,
.............2300 years
.....subtract-457 BC
   EQUALS...1843 AD;
......... add...1 (no year zero)
.............1844

  Would someone please enlighten ME , as to how other explanations can be used here?

 This is for starters!
  Keep "the" faith.
   Br. Laurie
         

[This message has been edited by Laurie Mosher (edited 03-10-2000).]

Keep "the" Faith,  Brother Laurie

Daryl Fawcett

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1844
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2000, 03:00:00 PM »
Since we are using the Scriptures to back up 1844 please read the two references below and my question in between:

Daniel 9:24 "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

The above reference very clearly gives us the starting date of that particular time period, however, how do we justify using the above reference to set the starting date of the reference below?    Note: I am asking this as this was asked to me.

Daniel 8:13 "Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
Daniel 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

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In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl.


Clive Nevell

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« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2000, 02:58:00 AM »
Laurie
Your maths is correct and your theology is also correct.
Will get back to Daryl in the morning, nearly 10.00pm here.
Regards
Clive

Clive Nevell

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« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2000, 10:56:00 PM »
Correct me if I am wrong, For I am not a theologion or the son of one.
Fisrtly Daryl, you are to be congradulated for asking the question as I believe every SDA will be asked the same question before the end and if we can not get it from the Bible, what will stop us from falling? I say we will fall in those circumstances. I pray and hope that every SDA will have an answer.
Here is mine briefly.
We need to understand that the 2.300 "evenings and mornings" in Dan. 8 was not explained and then looking at Dan 9 we see links between that chapter (9) and ch.8.
The same angel is talking to Daniel and refers back to the 2,300 days, and promise to give him understanding. Then gives him a smaller one and says it is "cut off" Cut off from what? obviously the 2300 days (years). To read any thing else into it is only speculation.
2300 "evening and morning" is not 1150 days as translated in the GNB. It is not talking about Antiochus epiphanes as he did not persecute the Jews for 1150 days, he was 70 days short. That shoots a hole in that idea.
The Jews always talked about burnt offerings as morning and evening never evening and morning, another proof that 2300 had nothing to do with sacrifices. But judgement.
Dan 8 repeats Dan 7, although some aspects are added and some missing. After studying these two chapters it will be seen that Judgement in heaven and the cleansing of the Sanctuary are the same event. Therefore the prophecies had the same starting point.
If we deny that the seventy weeks was not cut off from 2300 days, then what was it cut off from?
No other solution, but to have it cut off from the longer time prophecy of 2300 days.
I trust I have not confused anyone. Other studies go into it much deaper but I don't think at this stage it would be what you were after, Over to you Daryl
Regards
Clive


Laurie Mosher

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« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2000, 06:45:00 AM »
   Hello again,
 There is another aspect about the 2300 days/years, that I don't believe alot of people have taken into account . I have heard that this prophecy applies to the time of Antiochus Epiphanes , but there were 5 of them (II,IV, V alive in 223BC & downward). allowing for  even 150 years for the 3 rulers (actually #V reigned only a short time).

Dan 8:17LP "Understand , O son of man: FOR AT THE TIME OF THE END shall be the vision."

Pray tell, how could this be the "time of the end" (BC, I mean) when AD has not yet arrived? Here we are 2100 years later, and 'so-called' theologians identified Antiochus Epiphanes as living in the time of the end?

Someone's history  and theology is OFF.
 Keep "the" faith!
   Br. Laurie

Keep "the" Faith,  Brother Laurie

Richard Myers

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« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2000, 05:03:00 PM »
"Fear God and give glory to Him for the hour of His judgment is come."

In 1844 the judgment began. Do we not find this in the Book of Daniel? Were not the thrones cast down in 1844? Did not Jesus enter into the Most Holy Place? Yes, yes, yes!

Why is there objection to the judgment beginning in 1844? Why has the devil made such a strong attack on this Bible truth?

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In His love and grace,    Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Clive Nevell

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« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2000, 02:35:00 PM »
Once you take away 1844 (the Sanctuary Doctrine) Seventh-day Adventism is destroyed, the devil knows, we know it.
The cross is the centre under pinned by the Sanctuary Truth.
Without 1844 you can then be a Seventh-day anything else but not a Seventh-day Adventist
Regards
Clive

Clive Nevell

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« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2000, 10:25:00 AM »
There is an aspect of the judgement that many Adventists fail to understand that sin is not just an earthly issue. "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!" (Is. 14:12) "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and the sea! for the devil is come down to you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." (Rev. 12:12) Jesus won the victory at the cross and those who claim the blood of Christ in their behalf have been redemmed. But we have the on looking  universe, what about them? Were all the questions about sin, the great controversy, the law of God answered at the cross? Paul did not think so.
"intent was now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in heavenly realms, according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Eph.3:10,11) This text teaches us that God's plan to reveal His wisdom to the universe through His church is also part of God's "eternal purpose."
There is other evidence that shows to the heavenly host that not everthing that they needed to know about the plan of salvation was revealed at the cross. It was the sanctuary in the wilderness.
The altar of burnt offerings-the cross.
The laver-cleansing.
The first apartment-reconciliation & forgivness.
The lamp stand-Holy Spirit.
The table of shewbread-Jesus.
The altar of incense-Christs righteousness ascending with our prayers.
The second apartment was where the judgement occured.
the ark contained the law, and gold cover on the ark-the mercy seat-God's mercy in dealing with law breakers.
In this the Jews had a perfect presentation of the plan of salvation:atonement, forgivness, justification, confession, sanctification, judgement-it was all there.
Tell me where were the two Cherubim placed-who symbolized the host's interest in salvation? Over the burnt offerings-the cross. No! In the second apartment looking down on the judgement.
God chose to show his symbolic interest in the investigative judgemnet and not at the cross!
Why? Because not everything was answered at the cross. It shows us that the whole universe was involved. Everything was not answered at the cross, but the judgement, and that is why the angels are placed in the second apartment overlooking the judgement and not the burnt oferings.
Is. 5:16 "The Lord of hosts shall be exalted in judgement."
Daniel 7:22 "...judgement was given to the saints of the most high..." Vs.10 "...Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgement was set and the books were opened." Literally millions of heavenly beings-symbolized by the two cherubims in the second apartment-witness the judgement of God's people. God does not arrest and try people in secret but deals with the question of sin and rebellion in a wide and open manner.
Clearly, the Bible teaches that not everything the universe needed to know about the "manifold wisdom of God" was at Calvary. God was going to give them more. And two things He will use to answer these questions will be the character development of His peo-ple and the judgement in heaven. When we understand these two points then we will have a better understanding of the judgement.
Regards
Clive

Richard Myers

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« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2000, 05:56:00 PM »
Brother Clive, you have done your homework, and important homework it is. We as a people have been entrusted with these truths and it seems that many have lost sight of them. Solid Biblical support for things of eternal interest that are broader than the plan of salvation for fallen man.

The more we look at the simple verses in the Bible the more the truth shines out in brilliant rays of light. The restoration of the peace of the entire universe is involved in the great controversy between Christ and Satan.

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In His love and grace,    Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Clive Nevell

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« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2000, 01:47:00 AM »
I know this is not the Sabbath School thread but from last weeks lesson we learnt that Rev.22:18,19 says "...If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life..."
One can not get much simpler than what is written in God's Word. Reject the "INVESTIGATIVE JUDGEMENT", "SANCTUARY", and where does it put people that adds and subtracts. I pass judgement on no one, but God's Word is very plain.
It is very clear that when we read daniel 7, 8, 9. that there is a judgment, and that judgement is at the end of time. Dan.8:17 "...Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision."
Dan. 12:4 "...shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end..."
The reformers in the middle ages could not understand Daniel as they were not living in the "time of the end"
We are and have been since 1798, that is when Daniel began to be opened up and understood.
I have borrowed a book from our local library "The Popes" by Michael Walsh. On page 191 it tells us how Gen. Berthier came down and took the pope captive and led him off to die in exile. In many ways I like the honesty of the Catholics admitting this very important date and event in history.
If only our people would also admit the importance of 1844.
Regards
Clive

Elder John Thurber

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« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2000, 07:08:00 AM »
Thanks for all the good post on 1844. I grew up in New England, and my parents took me to all the historic sites of the pioneers.  It still thrills me to see these places, and read the history of the entrance of the remnant church. Spending 40+ yrs in the ministry I have wondered how many of our believers really understand the 2300 days in its fullness.
   Thus these questions:

1.  Is it necessary for one to understand 1844 totally for salvation?
2.  Can some believe by faith, and yet not be able to give answers to all the questions.
3.  Is the subject directly involved in salvation to the point that poor students, the uneducated will be left out.
4.  Will those who cannot explain it be shaken out in the end.

These questions have been ask from time to time in my ministry. How would you answer them. This is not to bring argument into the subject. but to have an answer to give when asked.

John  


M.A. Crawford

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« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2000, 03:48:00 PM »
Elder Thurber, although you asked the following questions below quite some time ago, I feel impressed to briefly respond to them even at this late date.

1. "Is it necessary for one to understand 1844 totally for salvation?"

No. I do not think so. There are many statements in the Bible and the writings of Ellen G. White that leave room for one to doubt. The year 1844 as it relates to the Sanctuary Doctrine is one of them. I believe there will never be total agreement on this topic because there will always be those who neither accept Mrs. White's writings nor her recognized position as church prophet. Much of what we have come to understand about Bible texts quoted in this thread and how they relate to 1844 come from those  writings. To believe them is a matter of one having faith in God's servant and what she wrote.

2. "Can some believe by faith, and yet not be able to give answers to all the questions."

I do not believe any of us, even those who disagree with what she wrote, can give irrefutable answers to all the questions on 1844. Some believe by faith, and some do not, that on October 30, 1844 the process of cleansing the Heavenly Sanctuary began when Jesus moved from the Holy to the Most Holy Place to begin a work of Investigative Judgment of all the "righteous" that shall continue until the close of probation. I BELIEVE THAT! For those who do not, it is certainly their perogative to do so.

3. "Is the subject directly involved in salvation to the point that poor students, the uneducated will be left out."

No. As a matter of fact, I believe just the opposite is true. I say that because, more often than not, the ones who usually have a "teachable spirit" are those who do not have several academic degrees in front of their name. THAT, I firmly believe, is the key to salvation more than anything else: having a teachable spirit.

There is nothing wrong with earned academic degrees. I hold a few myself (I say that only so no one will think I am jealous beause I do not possess any). What I am convinced of is spiritual problems will occur when we permit our so-called brillance to outshine our actual brightness. In other words, sometimes some are TOO SMART for their own good!

4. "Will those who cannot explain it be shaken out in the end."

I do not believe they will. Even if Ellen G. White is wrong about 1844, my salvation is not based on that. Instead, it is based upon my faith in Jesus Christ and the ordering of my life after His Divine Similitude.

I believe those who will be shaken out will be the doubters and the half-committed who never made it a practice to "surrender all" to Jesus.

M.A.  

M.A.

Elder John Thurber

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« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2000, 05:18:00 AM »
Dear Bro. Crawford, what a beautiful response to my questions about 1844. You answered them in the Spirit of the fruits of the Spirit. Thank you for doing that.

I love to study 1844 and believe totally in the SOP. But through the years have been asked these questions and wondered how someone else would answer them.

Your response is the best I've heard. Thanks for your post. Friend John


M.A. Crawford

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« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2000, 08:42:00 AM »
Thank you, elder, for your kind response. God, whose "eye is on the sparrow," also watches over us here in this forum and shall continue to bless us, through His Holy Spirit, by giving us what we stand in need of as we speak words that bind us together and bring us closer to the Lord.

M.A.

M.A.

Edward F. Sutton

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« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2000, 12:26:00 AM »
I have read the posted replies. I e-mailed Daryl a rather complete answer if you want a copy e-mail him or me. I am trying to keep long posts to a minimum. However watch some Joe Crews evangalistic series videos and see how he uses Scripture & history to unlock prophecy. His teaching style is quite effective. I did my Bible responce from memory & rereading Daniel & Ezra & Chronicles etc. If Richard asks me to post the reply I will do so.

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Ed Sutton

Ed Sutton

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« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2000, 10:36:00 PM »
This is a tutorial study it is recomended to copy it & print it out to read piece by piece.

10-22-1844- What?.......When......?.....Why?

There is a time prophecied, that said that  God promised to vindicate the righteous trusting ones Who abode in Him even though they were dead .

John 11:25  Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he  were dead, yet shall he live:
(Jesus is authorized to raise the righteous dead, who died trusting in Him.)

Romans 4:17  (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the  dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
(All the dead are no more, but God is able to treat them as though they were.)

Revelation 6:9-11
9 ¶ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, HOW LONG, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11  And WHITE ROBES were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
(God has a means of officially deciding according to unimpeachable standards and methods, who to cloth in white robes {eternal righteousness} and who not to.

Revelation 14:13  And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, THAT THEY MAY REST FROM THEIR LABOURS; AND THEIR WORKS DO FOLLOW THEM.
(God never forgets His kids and has a way to never let anyone “fall through the cracks”.)

Ecclesiastes 12:13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14  For God shall bring EVERY WORK INTO JUDGMENT, with every secret thing, WHETHER IT BE GOOD, OR WHETHER IT BE EVIL.
(All peoples works get judged but how would a dead person go to trial?)

Revelation 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the BOOKS WERE OPENED: and another book was opened, which is the book  of life: AND THE DEAD WERE JUDGED OUT OF THOSE THINGS WHICH WERE WRITTEN IN THE BOOKS, ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS.
(Here is how God does it. He is able to take the total records covering the people being put on trial, to that trial.)

Revelation 11:15 -19 (NOTICE THE TIMING)
19 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world ARE BECOME the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16  And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17  Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18  And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, AND THE TIME OF THE DEAD, THAT THEY SHOULD BE JUDGED, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19  And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ARK OF HIS TESTAMENT: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
A. This world becomes Christ’s legal property before the on looking universe.
B. The time of the dead that their judgement begins. {This is how God is legally able to give them the afore mentioned “white raiment”; as far as the dead are concerned this is their “make it or break it” salvation or eternal loss.
C. The ARK OF THE LAW & MERCY SEAT PORTION OF THE ATONEMENT {the Most Holy Place is opened}; this is where the then living and those who die from then on have their cases decided for salvation or not. THIS IS THE OPEN DOOR & THE SHUT DOOR JESUS TALKED ABOUT.  HE OPENS AND IT CAN NOT BE SHUT.  HE CLOSES AND IT CAN NOT BE OPENED.

The prophet Daniel got to see these things centuries before the Apostle John did, but they both add things to the total prophecy so we who come after them can understand better.

(The phrase cast down means placed or put there in this context. The setting is a trial as the Hebrews were familiar with, because God through earlier prophets had given directions for setting up their court system. )

Daniel 7:9-22
9 ¶ I beheld TILL THE THRONES WERE CAST DOWN, AND THE ANCIENT OF DAYS DID SIT, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10  A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: THE JUDGMENT WAS SET, AND THE BOOKS WERE OPENED.
11  I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12  As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
13  I saw in the night visions, and, behold, ONE LIKE THE SON OF MAN CAME WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN, AND CAME TO THE ANCIENT OF DAYS, AND THEY BROUGHT HIM NEAR BEFORE HIM.
14  And there was GIVEN HIM dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
15 ¶ I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
16  I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
17  THESE GREAT BEASTS, WHICH ARE FOUR, ARE FOUR KINGS, WHICH SHALL ARISE OUT OF THE EARTH.
18  But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
19  Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of  brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20  And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21  I beheld, and the same horn MADE WAR WITH THE SAINTS, AND PREVAILED AGAINST THEM;
22  UNTIL the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

This is the Heavenly Sanctuary. Where does the Bible say anything about a time table that was prophecied about the Heavenly Sanctuary where God is?

Daniel 8:1-14 (Daniel begins to receive the prophecies that uncover the time-table.)
1 ¶ In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.
2  And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.
3  Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.
4  I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.
5  And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.
6  And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.
7  And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.
8  Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9  And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10  And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11  Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12  And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13  Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14  And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

(2300 literal days does not fit the contexts of these prophecies, their framework is symbolic figures familiar to Jews & Bible students; of our day. There for these symbols representing prophetic time, define literal time once the Bible’s established definitions are applied. A Prophetic day symbolizes a literal 360 day year. The Jews had a sacred & a secular calender. The sacred one was full of the starting & ending of ceremonial services & prophecies etc. The 2300 days or literal “evening morning” is the prophetic symbol for 2300 literal 360 day years. God set the Bible up so earnest students comparing Scripture with Scripture would learn only as much as they were willing to obey.  )

Daniel 8:6  AND I HEARD A MAN'S VOICE BETWEEN THE BANKS OF ULAI, WHICH CALLED, AND SAID, GABRIEL, MAKE THIS MAN TO UNDERSTAND THE VISION.
17  So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
18  Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.
19  AND HE SAID, BEHOLD, I WILL MAKE THEE KNOW WHAT SHALL BE IN THE LAST END OF THE INDIGNATION: FOR AT THE TIME APPOINTED THE END SHALL BE.
20  THE RAM WHICH THOU SAWEST HAVING TWO HORNS ARE THE KINGS OF MEDIA AND PERSIA.
21  AND THE ROUGH GOAT IS THE KING OF GRECIA: AND THE GREAT HORN THAT IS BETWEEN HIS EYES IS THE FIRST KING.
22  NOW THAT BEING BROKEN, WHEREAS FOUR STOOD UP FOR IT, FOUR KINGDOMS SHALL STAND UP OUT OF THE NATION, BUT NOT IN HIS POWER.
23  And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24  And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25  And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, AND BY PEACE SHALL DESTROY MANY: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
26  AND THE VISION OF THE EVENING AND THE MORNING WHICH WAS TOLD IS TRUE: WHEREFORE SHUT THOU UP THE VISION; FOR IT SHALL BE FOR MANY DAYS.
27  AND I DANIEL FAINTED, AND WAS SICK CERTAIN DAYS; AFTERWARD I ROSE UP, AND DID THE KING'S BUSINESS; AND I WAS ASTONISHED AT THE VISION, BUT NONE UNDERSTOOD IT.

(Daniel tells that according to the angel Gabriel, God wants Daniel to begin to see the time table.  In the rich and descriptive language of the Hebrews, the cut off time of two thousand three hundred days is given. The rest of Daniels prophecies have been symbols with literal definitions to those symbols that are revealed some where in the Bible, not just the book of Daniel. History is being explained before it happens.  Daniel can not endure the whole explanation at once. Gabriel has to leave and allow Daniel to recover till he can endure “ the rest of the story.”)

(Gabriel had began to explain to Daniel. Notice Daniel 7:1-3;
1 ¶ In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters.
2  Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
3  And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.


Daniel 9:21-27
(Verses 21-23 Gabriel comes to Daniel to finish explaining what He started, Verse 24 tells that a smaller “chunk” of time is cut off from or in the old word usage and context, “determined”.  This chunk of time is isolated from a larger time prophecy; that it is the beginning part of .  They both speak of the Sanctuary (or salvation history - past, present, future; and what God has done, is doing at that time and is going to do.  These actions by God determine all peoples eternal salvation or eternal punishment through the actions of the Lake of Fire.)
Daniel 9:21-27
21  Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
22  And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.
23  At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.
24  SEVENTY WEEKS ARE DETERMINED UPON THY PEOPLE AND UPON THY HOLY CITY, TO FINISH THE TRANSGRESSION, AND TO MAKE AN END OF SINS, AND TO MAKE RECONCILIATION FOR INIQUITY, AND TO BRING IN EVERLASTING RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND TO SEAL UP THE VISION AND PROPHECY, AND TO ANOINT THE MOST HOLY.
25  KNOW THEREFORE AND UNDERSTAND, THAT FROM THE GOING FORTH OF THE COMMANDMENT TO RESTORE AND TO BUILD JERUSALEM UNTO THE MESSIAH THE PRINCE SHALL BE SEVEN WEEKS, AND THREESCORE AND TWO WEEKS: THE STREET SHALL BE BUILT AGAIN, AND THE WALL, EVEN IN TROUBLOUS TIMES.
26  AND AFTER THREESCORE AND TWO WEEKS SHALL MESSIAH BE CUT OFF, BUT NOT FOR HIMSELF: AND THE PEOPLE OF THE PRINCE THAT SHALL COME SHALL DESTROY THE CITY AND THE SANCTUARY; AND THE END THEREOF SHALL BE WITH A FLOOD, AND UNTO THE END OF THE WAR DESOLATIONS ARE DETERMINED.
27  AND HE SHALL CONFIRM THE COVENANT WITH MANY FOR ONE WEEK: AND IN THE MIDST OF THE WEEK HE SHALL CAUSE THE SACRIFICE AND THE OBLATION TO CEASE, AND FOR THE OVERSPREADING OF ABOMINATIONS HE SHALL MAKE IT DESOLATE, EVEN UNTIL THE CONSUMMATION, AND THAT DETERMINED SHALL BE POURED UPON THE DESOLATE.


(Here is the key to unlock the timetable covering cosmic scale events that are so personal that they decide individual salvation or rejection. )

Now the challenge is to find the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem and pinpoint it in history accurately and begin the countdown. The 490 year prophecy is part of the 2300 year prophecy and starts at the same time in history. Lets go to the books of 2nd Chronicles & Ezra.  It is a complex story of Divine intervention, Satanic opposition, true hearted loyalty and evil hearted greed and politics.


2 Chronicles 36:15-23 (Decree # 1 viewed from Chronicles)
15 And the LORD God of their fathers sent to them by his messengers, rising up betimes, and sending; because he had compassion on his people, and on his dwelling place:
16  But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against his people, till there was no remedy.
17  Therefore he brought upon them the king of the Chaldees, who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion upon young man or maiden, old man, or him that stooped for age: he gave them all into his hand.
18  And all the vessels of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king, and of his princes; all these he brought to Babylon.
19  And they burnt the house of God, and brake down the wall of Jerusalem, and burnt all the palaces thereof with fire, and destroyed all the goodly vessels thereof.
20  And them that had escaped from the sword carried he away to Babylon; where they were servants to him and his sons until the reign of the kingdom of Persia:
21  To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years.
22 ¶ Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,
23  Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms of the earth hath the LORD God of heaven given me; and he hath charged me to build him an house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all his people? The LORD his God be with him, and let him go up.

Ezra 1:1-4 (Decree # 1 viewed from Ezra)
1 ¶ Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,
2  Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.
3  Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the LORD God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem.
4  And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that is in Jerusalem.

(Now Cyrus is king over Babylon and it’s territories, Media and it’s territories, Persia and it’s territories. The Prophet Daniel had shown King Cyrus Isaiah’s prophecy concerning him & how he would defeat Babylon. This was shown him after he was king of Babylon, but it was written by Isaiah before that time had yet occurred . Prophecy had such an effect in Cyrus’s heart that he said “He is THE GOD which is in Jerusalem”. Sounds like a declaration of conversion, with actions to match.)

Here is a decree to rebuild Jerusalem, but did they do it?  No and here is why.
Ezra 4:1-5 & verses 16 - 24
1 ¶ Now when the adversaries of Judah and Benjamin heard that the children of the captivity builded the temple unto the LORD God of Israel;
2  Then they came to Zerubbabel, and to the chief of the fathers, and said unto them, Let us build with you: for we seek your God, as ye do; and we do sacrifice unto him since the days of Esarhaddon king of Assur, which brought us up hither.
3  But Zerubbabel, and Jeshua, and the rest of the chief of the fathers of Israel, said unto them, Ye have nothing to do with us to build an house unto our God; but we ourselves together will build unto the LORD God of Israel, as king Cyrus the king of Persia hath commanded us.
4  Then the people of the land weakened the hands of the people of Judah, and troubled them in building,
5  AND HIRED COUNSELLORS AGAINST THEM, TO FRUSTRATE THEIR PURPOSE, ALL THE DAYS OF CYRUS KING OF PERSIA, EVEN UNTIL THE REIGN OF DARIUS KING OF PERSIA.

(Things got so bad all work was forced to stop)
16  We certify the king that, if this city be builded again, and the walls thereof set up, by this means thou shalt have no portion on this side the river.
17 ¶ Then sent the king an answer unto Rehum the chancellor, and to Shimshai the scribe, and to the rest of their companions that dwell in Samaria, and unto the rest beyond the river, Peace, and at such a time.
18  The letter which ye sent unto us hath been plainly read before me.
19  And I commanded, and search hath been made, and it is found that this city of old time hath made insurrection against kings, and that rebellion and sedition have been made therein.
20  There have been mighty kings also over Jerusalem, which have ruled over all countries beyond the river; and toll, tribute, and custom, was paid unto them.
21  Give ye now commandment to cause these men to cease, and that this city be not builded, until another commandment shall be given from me.
22  Take heed now that ye fail not to do this: why should damage grow to the hurt of the kings?
23  Now when the copy of king Artaxerxes' letter was read before Rehum, and Shimshai the scribe, and their companions, they went up in haste to Jerusalem unto the Jews, AND MADE THEM TO CEASE BY FORCE AND POWER.
24  Then ceased the work of the house of God which is at Jerusalem. So it ceased unto the second year of the reign of Darius king of Persia.

(Decree # 2 The ruling governors needed to settle this matter and wrote to King Darius. The Lord had moved on prophets to inspire the people and restart them to work, this inflamed the situation and the current ruling king would have to settle the matter. These governors could not stop the work and had been told that this work was authorized by King Cyrus. A historical search had to be authorized.)

(Decree # 3 the last decree, that got things set in motion to rebuild not just the temple but also the city and it’s walls. 457 BC in the fall of the year.  King Artaxerxes had stopped King Cyrus’s decree and King Darius’s decree without understanding the whole story. He had to fix the situation from a human standpoint; but remember God also put King Artaxerxes under conviction such that he would not issue a weak incomplete decree.)
Ezra 7:6-26  
6  This Ezra went up from Babylon; and he was a ready scribe in the law of Moses, which the LORD God of Israel had given: and the king granted him all his request, according to the hand of the LORD his God upon him.
7  And there went up some of the children of Israel, and of the priests, and the Levites, and the singers, and the porters, and the Nethinims, unto Jerusalem, in the seventh year of Artaxerxes the king.
8  And he came to Jerusalem in the fifth month, which was in the seventh year of the king.
9  For upon the first day of the first month began he to go up from Babylon, and on the first day of the fifth month came he to Jerusalem, according to the good hand of his God upon him.
10  For Ezra had prepared his heart to seek the law of the LORD, and to do it, and to teach in Israel statutes and judgments.
11 ¶ Now this is the copy of the letter that the king Artaxerxes gave unto Ezra the priest, the scribe, even a scribe of the words of the commandments of the LORD, and of his statutes to Israel.
12  Artaxerxes, king of kings, unto Ezra the priest, a scribe of the law of the God of heaven, perfect peace, and at such a time.
13  I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.
14  Forasmuch as thou art sent of the king, and of his seven counsellors, to enquire concerning Judah and Jerusalem, according to the law of thy God which is in thine hand;
15  And to carry the silver and gold, which the king and his counsellors have freely offered unto the God of Israel, whose habitation is in Jerusalem,
16  And all the silver and gold that thou canst find in all the province of Babylon, with the freewill offering of the people, and of the priests, offering willingly for the house of their God which is in Jerusalem:
17  That thou mayest buy speedily with this money bullocks, rams, lambs, with their meat offerings and their drink offerings, and offer them upon the altar of the house of your God which is in Jerusalem.
18  And whatsoever shall seem good to thee, and to thy brethren, to do with the rest of the silver and the gold, that do after the will of your God.
19  The vessels also that are given thee for the service of the house of thy God, those deliver thou before the God of Jerusalem.
20  And whatsoever more shall be needful for the house of thy God, which thou shalt have occasion to bestow, bestow it out of the king's treasure house.
21  And I, even I Artaxerxes the king, do make a decree to all the treasurers which are beyond the river, that whatsoever Ezra the priest, the scribe of the law of the God of heaven, shall require of you, it be done speedily,
22  Unto an hundred talents of silver, and to an hundred measures of wheat, and to an hundred baths of wine, and to an hundred baths of oil, and salt without prescribing how much.
23  Whatsoever is commanded by the God of heaven, let it be diligently done for the house of the God of heaven: for why should there be wrath against the realm of the king and his sons?
24  Also we certify you, that touching any of the priests and Levites, singers, porters, Nethinims, or ministers of this house of God, it shall not be lawful to impose toll, tribute, or custom, upon them.
25  And thou, Ezra, after the wisdom of thy God, that is in thine hand, set magistrates and judges, which may judge all the people that are beyond the river, all such as know the laws of thy God; and teach ye them that know them not.
26  And whosoever will not do the law of thy God, and the law of the king, let judgment be executed speedily upon him, whether it be unto death, or to banishment, or to confiscation of goods, or to imprisonment.

Now the historic time is set.  457 BC
The prophecy in Daniel 9:24 - 27 does not join all the times together in an un recognizable lump. The time frame for rebuilding Jerusalem & the Temple are given first. 7-weeks.
Then the span of time till Messiah comes .  62 - weeks
Then confirmation of the covenant. 1 - week

The years on the Jewish sacred calender were 360 days long.  Every so often in history a 13 month was added to keep things proper in their records. New moons, full moons, eclipses were a starting stopping point for events in their sacred calender; so mathematically these dates have been verified by believers & unbelievers alike. Math is not an issue, but rather an ally in this case.

7-weeks as a prophetic time symbol equals 49 literal years on the Jewish sacred calendar.
7 x 7 = 49
62 weeks as a prophetic time symbol equals 434 literal years on the Jewish sacred calendar.
62 x 7 = 434
1 week as a prophetic time symbol equals 7 literal years on the Jewish sacred calendar.
1 x 7 = 7
(7 + 62 + 1) = 70 symbolic weeks of time prophecy
(49 + 434 + 7 ) = 490 literal years

The book of Daniel twice says the vision was for the future as far as Daniel was concerned .
Daniel 8:26  And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the  vision; for it shall be for many days.
Daniel 10:14  Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision  is for many days.
Daniel 12:11-13
11  And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12  Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13  But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

The 2300 day prophecy would start in the fall of 457 BC and go forward through history to its’ accomplishment .

Mark 1: 9 - 15 (fall AD 27)
9¶ And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
10  And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
11  And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
12  And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness.
13  And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.
14 ¶ Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15  And saying, THE TIME IS FULFILLED, AND THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND: repent ye, and believe the gospel.


(The fateful events  - spring @ passover AD 31)
Matthew 27:33 -38
33¶ And when they were come unto a place called Golgotha, that is to say, a place of a skull,
34  They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink.
35  And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
36  And sitting down they watched him there;
37  And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
38  Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.
39  And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,
40  And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.
41  Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,
42  He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
43  He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.
44  The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.
45  Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
46  And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
47  Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.
48  And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.
49  The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
50 ¶ Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51  And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mark 15:22 ¶ And they bring him unto the place Golgotha, which is, being interpreted, The place of a skull.
23  And they gave him to drink wine mingled with myrrh: but he received it not.
24  And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take.
25  And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.
26  And the superscription of his accusation was written over, THE KING OF THE JEWS.
27  And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.
28  And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.
29  And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying, Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days,
30  Save thyself, and come down from the cross.
31  Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.
32  Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.
33 ¶ And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.
34  And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
35  And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Elias.
36  And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down.
37  And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
38  And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.

(The final events that closed the 490 years of Jewish national probation, to be used of God as a nation or not. The gospel commission is removed from Judaism and the gospel is carried to the Gentiles .  AD - 34 )
Acts 7:51 - 8:4
51¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52  Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53  Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
54 ¶ When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
55  But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56  And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57  Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58  And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59  And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60  And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
1 ¶ And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
2  And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him.
3  As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
4 ¶ Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.
5  Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
6  And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
7  For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
8  And there was great joy in that city.

(Daniel had spoken another prophecy that was part of this 2300 year prophecy.)
Daniel 12:11-13
11  And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12  Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13  But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

In 508 AD that abomination that maketh desolate was set up .  508 + 1290 = 1798
In 508 AD that abomination that maketh desolate was set up . 508 + 1335 = 1843
1843 is the time the “midnight cry” was first sounded by the Millerites . This was the preparation for 1844.  This was the cut off for the other professed Christian Churches. Like the Jewish nation this was a time of judgement & inclusion into the Remnant or separation and return to the status as Babylon. The parallels with Bible time history are striking.

The math of the 2300 days

457 BC fall - time prophecy begins 490 yrs later in 34 AD fall Gospel to Gentiles.
34 AD fall - 508 AD Abomination that removes Jesus true Sanctuary mediation setup.
538 AD  - Pontiff set self up as supreme head of all Earths’ churches & Dark Ages begins.
1798 AD - The deadly wound is given & the Dark Ages is officially over. The Book Of Daniel now is officially opened & its’ prophecies begin to be understood. The 42 months or 1260 (days) literal years of the Dark Ages & persecution are over.
1843 AD the Millerite movement is sounding the “Midnight cry.”
1844 Fall - October 22 - 1844 .  This is the actual human date the 2300 literal years of time distinguished prophecy stops.  October 22 that year is when the astronomical calculations occur that tell when the Yom Kippur Day of Atonement is that year. There is no zero year from BC 1 to AD 1 so usual mathematical time lines do not help when moving from BC to AD of a calender. This is why the original math showed 1843 but was revised in William Millers preaching to show 1844.

The date was right but the perceived event was wrong just like the foal ride in Jerusalem by Jesus centuries ago. His throne was a cross, but He did not stop loving disciples from Heralding Him then nor in 1843 & 44 nor now.

Ed Sutton

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Ed Sutton

Ed Sutton

Kevin Hellerud

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1844
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2000, 02:15:00 PM »
May I also join Bro. John in thanking Bro. Crawford, and may I thank others of you for your excellent posts too!

Over a period of about 3 or more years I've placed posts of eveidence for 1844 on the official and the AToday forum offering evidence for the critics to show fault with, but over the years I got no takers.  I've collected and edited these posts and have made it into one paper. Since I can not cut and past on to this forum, I'd have to copy it word for word, which takes time, and being back in school I have textbooks calling for my attention.

Some of the things I've mentioned is how the year-day interchangeablilty was a part of the ancient world.  (See "Before Philosophy" by Henri Frankfort and others, copyright in the 1940's by the University of Chicago Press.  Why Adventist have not latched onto this book I'll never know)

457 BC has strong support as documented in both the book by Thiele and Wood, and also in more recent years by F. M. Cross.

The Book Sancturary and the Atonement (The yellow cover original, not the blue cover abriged "ATS" approved reprints) has fantastic articles, may I especially recommend the 3 chapters by John W. Wood
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Read these above sources and your understanding will be greatly enriched.

As for the time the book of Daniel being written, there are 3 theories.  One, is by Daniel himself during the Babylonian captvity.  Of course how he got his obituary into Chapter 1 has not been answered. Also there were many facts about Babylon that is simply wrong, and too glearing mistakes for Daniel to have gotten wrong. Also there are a lot of Persian ideas, that you would expect in the next generation, but not in Daniel's generation.

A second theory is that it was dealing with the issue of Antiochus.  While the book was a big help there, it has been noticed that while it kind of fits, it does not fit as nice as they wish, and it was more accurate about it's ancient Babylonian and Persion history, which should have been forgotten by that time, but so many mistakes about his own time has been a mystery to the supporters of this setting for the book. They also have the Persian problem that the supporters of view 1 have trouble with.

The third view is new, and there has yet to be a commentary written on this, and those who support it recommend reading "Cambridge Ancient History" but which sees the book of Daniel itself beeing composed and compiled by one or more of Daniel's deciples upon the return of the exile, applying the teachings of their teacher to the return, setting up the kingdom and part of the work and world of Haggi, Zachariah, Zerubbabel and Joshua. Dated someplace between the death of Daniel (538 BC) and when the returned Hebrews gave up trying to re-establish a full kingdom with a Davidic King (450 BC).  This time period would explain how Daniel can know more about Babylon than someone living during second century BC would know, why it was a close, but still bad fit of events in the second century BC, and also explains why dispite having knowlege about Babylon, would still make the mistakes about Babylon that Daniel himself would have never had made.  I hope to see more study of Daniel in this time frame.

The supporters of the second century Daniel like the 2300 evenings- morning to have meant 2300 evenings and mornings, with the author being dyslectic and meaning to write 2300 mornings and evenings, so that it can be applied to the two daily sacrifices, and thus 1150 days, which still does not fit, but is closer than 2300 days.  Yet an additional problem they have with this besides the missing "and" and the evenings/mornings being swiched, is that Daniel 8 is placed in the 6th year of Belshazzar.  1150 days from business as usual, but 2300 days from the twilight, if not the end of Babylon.  Remember, Daniel 8 does not give us a start date.  for Daniel it was probably expected to start when he got the vision.  Daniel 9 re-applies it to the decree that Ezra brought and anounced on the day of Atonement 457 BC.

A foot note here: John has Jesus starting his ministry when John the Baptist anounces "Behold the Lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the world" which could also be interpited "Behold the Lamb of God who Scapegoats the sins of the world." Why this reference to the two animals of the Day of Atonement?  Does John have Jesus starting his ministry on the Day of Atonement?  Also, John starts Jesus' ministry on the Day of Atonement, and has him crucified 3 1/2 years latter, did John have the 2300 day prophecy in mind as the framework for Jesus' ministry?

In the ancient world, including the Old Testament, trials would have an investagative aspect.  People would appeal to judges, or to their god to investagate their case, because they would judge for them.  The ancient world's view of the investagative judgement was "Search me and try me O God." but our modern Adventist view is "Don't you dare! I'm afraid I will loose my salvation if you do." When it comes to the investagative judgement, sadly, the worshipers of Baal, including Sodom and Gomorrah had a better view of God and will face the Judgement better than some of us will. They saw the Investagative Judgement as a joyful exciting time (if only they did not want purely selfish blessings).  We approach it with fear and gloom.

The ancient world also believed what was happening in the heavenly temple was also happening in the earthly temple, and what was happening in the earthly temple was happening in the heavenly temple. The New Testament re-applies the earthly temple to the church, both individually and collectively.  If there was anything going on in heaven, we would expect to see something happening among us on earth. Do we see anything? Also, what shall we look for?  A kippur (a Hebrew word translated either Judgement or Atonement) tends to be an act that either brings people closer to God and gives them joy, or drives them farther away depending on how we respond to it... Is there any evidence of a Kippur over this time period?

Prior to the mid 1800's we did not have modernism nor fundamentalism.  Yes, some churches were more liberal, and others more conservative, but they tended to believe in an actual God and that the Bible was inspired, what ever that meant, and problems found were no big deal. Much of the Bible was unknown, and people would try to do their best to guess at what it meant, and theology was little more than guesses.

But in the mid 1800's we find the church splitting into Fundamentalists and Modernists, with a wide chasm between them. Yet, we also find over the past century and a half there has been an explosion of Biblical knowlege, the re-discovery of the ancient world, better understanding of the historical context, better understanding of the language, better understanding of issues the writers were dealing with.

Oh if only Luther could have read "Paul and Rabbinic Judiasm" How Wesley and Usher would have loved to have discussed with William Foxwell Albright and Nelson Glick or even if Miller could have discussed 457 BC with Cross, or the day-year principle from Frankfort.  If only Canright could have known about the copying etc. in the Bible, if he were not an extream fundamentalist, he would have never left us.

We are living in an exciting time!  As we learn more about the Bible, we learn more about the God of the Bible. As we learn more about God, we become more like the one we admire.  Church history shows that we are living in a time of Kipper.  Whether it started on Oct 22, 1844 or not, or if it has anything to do with Daniel or not, we can not get around the fact that we have been living in a time of kippur since the mid-1800's. So just enjoy the Kippur, read the Bible, or put it in your cassett or cd player, or put the Matthew - Acts vidio in your recorder. Subscribe to Bible Archaeology Review, and Bible Review, read John Bright's "A History of Israel" Ahroni's "The Land of the Bible" and the "MacMillian Bible Atlas" and listen to Jim Fleming lectures, and all the other benifits of the Investagative Judgement to let the Bible come alive and thus allow the cleansing of the sanctuary of your heart!    :)  :)  :)

[This message has been edited by Kevin Hellerud (edited 06-19-2000).]