Author Topic: Romans 7 and 8 (Read 242932 times)

Allan F · « **Reply #180 on:** March 08, 2007, 03:36:00 AM »

Hi, I pretty much agree with what you are saying. I am no theologian either, but just read my Bible. When i discuss with other christians i feel that many are not aware of the major differences between phariseism and OT theology. When we are not aware of this difference it is very easy to misinterpret Paul when he deals with issues such as law and grace. Thank your sharing!

Richard Myers · « **Reply #181 on:** March 08, 2007, 07:58:00 AM »

Brother Thomas, I think Brother Allan brings up a most important aspect of this battle for truth. The "law" is the "schoolmaster" that leads us to Christ. The law is also a transcript of God's character. The law also is "holy, just, and good."

I think that when we consider the situation at the time Christ was born into this world, we must consider the fact that "the law" was not the problem, but the problem was what man had done to it. Satan had been masterful at his deception to bring reproach upon the law just as he has done today.

While there is no power in the law to save, it is still holy, just, and good. Today we see many who have swallowed Satan's lie that the law cannot be kept by sinful man. So, the law is looked upon with contempt. But, if we understood that it is Christ's desire to write it upon the table of the heart, to give us His character that we would reflect Him, we would love the law as the psalmist did.

The law has been covered over with human requirements and with Pharisaical pride. Many who profess to keep the law of God today and in the days of Israel of Old do not keep the law. They do not keep the law from the heart as is required by the law. An outward manifestation that meets with man's mind, does not meet with the requirements of the law. In order to keep the law we most do it from love for God and love for man. A selfish heart cannot keep the law of God.

When we come to a correct understanding of "the law" and its requirements, then we can appreciate the need for grace. Without a new heart, we cannot love God nor our neighbor as ourselves. The whole law hangs on these two great precepts.

Brother Thomas, your mind is striving to get this right. I can see that the lights are coming on by the concerns you have. Satan has done much to confuse the Word, but Christ has provided us with abundant light and it is shining brightly. As the garbage is swept away from the law, can you see the manner in which the law and grace are working today to prepare a people to receive Jesus at His soon coming?

Thomas M · « **Reply #182 on:** March 08, 2007, 09:14:00 PM »

Yes, Brother Richard, your's and Allan F's find posts were most enlightening to my mind. Where I am situated the Pauline idea of the law as a schoolmaster is very much seen from the perspective of Lutheran theology, which is most succinctly condensed in the lie that the law cannot be kept, at the point of the law is to bring us to Christ for salvation.
If I understand you correctly, the law and the gospel cannot be separated, but are two inseparable strands. This is similar to what I was getting at with the idea of two golden threads in the Hebrew Scriptures: the law and the Messiah.
I brought up the situation at the time of Christ in reference to Rome, and you commented upon that. It comes to mind that the pen of inspiration makes the same point by drawing a detailed analysis of Roman and Jewish politics, to sue the word broadly, at the beginning of the book Desire of Ages.
I am very grateful for these enlightening letters.

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Myers:
Brother Thomas, I think Brother Allan brings up a most important aspect of this battle for truth. The "law" is the "schoolmaster" that leads us to Christ. The law is also a transcript of God's character. The law also is "holy, just, and good."
I think that when we consider the situation at the time Christ was born into this world, we must consider the fact that "the law" was not the problem, but the problem was what man had done to it. Satan had been masterful at his deception to bring reproach upon the law just as he has done today.
While there is no power in the law to save, it is still holy, just, and good. Today we see many who have swallowed Satan's lie that the law cannot be kept by sinful man. So, the law is looked upon with contempt. But, if we understood that it is Christ's desire to write it upon the table of the heart, to give us His character that we would reflect Him, we would love the law as the psalmist did.
The law has been covered over with human requirements and with Pharisaical pride. Many who profess to keep the law of God today and in the days of Israel of Old do not keep the law. They do not keep the law from the heart as is required by the law. An outward manifestation that meets with man's mind, does not meet with the requirements of the law. In order to keep the law we most do it from love for God and love for man. A selfish heart cannot keep the law of God.
When we come to a correct understanding of "the law" and its requirements, then we can appreciate the need for grace. Without a new heart, we cannot love God nor our neighbor as ourselves. The whole law hangs on these two great precepts.
Brother Thomas, your mind is striving to get this right. I can see that the lights are coming on by the concerns you have. Satan has done much to confuse the Word, but Christ has provided us with abundant light and it is shining brightly. As the garbage is swept away from the law, can you see the manner in which the law and grace are working today to prepare a people to receive Jesus at His soon coming?

asygo · « **Reply #183 on:** March 08, 2007, 09:56:00 PM »

I'm kind of skipping to the end of the book here, so I don't know if this has been answered already.

Is Romans 7 Paul's description of his actual experience, or just a hypothetical situation?

If it was his experience, was it current at the time of his writing, or merely a recounting of his past?

If it was past, was it before he was a "blameless" Pharisee or after?

------------------
By God's grace,
Arnold M. Sy Go
-end-

[This message has been edited by asygo (edited 03-08-2007).]

Richard Myers · « **Reply #184 on:** March 10, 2007, 03:44:00 PM »

quote:
Originally posted by Thomas M:

If I understand you correctly, the law and the gospel cannot be separated, but are two inseparable strands.

That is a very good way to put it, two inseparable strands. When we see that the law is a transcript of God's character, then we understand that the gospel and the law are indeed perfectly united in Christ.

Richard Myers · « **Reply #185 on:** March 10, 2007, 04:44:00 PM »

quote:
Originally posted by asygo:
Is Romans 7 Paul's description of his actual experience, or just a hypothetical situation?

Paul is speaking of his experience that we may know what is involved in conversion.

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death."

quote:
Originally posted by asygo:
If it was his experience, was it current at the time of his writing, or merely a recounting of his past?

He was speaking of his past experience when he could not keep the law and when he did not know who it was that would help him keep the law. And as was pointed out in the last answer, he even takes us back to when he thought he was "alive" before the depth of the law came to him.

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death."

The law which is holy, just, and good brought to Paul (Saul) death. Did it kill him physically? No, it only revealed that he was condemned. He saw that he did not possess eternal life. A shock to a Pharisee of that day.

Not only did Paul not know how to keep the law, but he did not know Jesus Christ.

"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

quote:
Originally posted by asygo:
If it was past, was it before he was a "blameless" Pharisee or after?

Paul was a "blameless" Pharisee before he saw himself condemned by the broken law of God. In chapter seven, he is telling us about the period in his life when he had come to understand he was no longer "blameless". He was indeed condemned as he saw the the depth of the law and knew not how to keep it. What a spot to be in.

Many in the Laodicean church are in a similar situation. They have come to see that the law is indeed binding and the wages of sin is death. But, they do not know how to keep the law. They then seek an answer to this terrible dilemma. How can one keep the law of God? Many others in the church today do not have this urgent problem. They do not see themselves condemned by the broken law. They are "alive" without the law. They have been lied to as was Saul the Pharisee. Sadly, even though they don't see themselves condemned, they do not have eternal life.

BobRyan · « **Reply #186 on:** November 14, 2008, 06:54:57 AM »

Quote from: Richard Myers on May 10, 2000, 08:40:00 PM

Romans Chapter Seven (part 1 of 2)

7:5 "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were
 by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit
 unto death."

 When we were unconverted, sin, which is known by the law, was
 done by our flesh which brings us under the condemnation of the
 broken law.

7:6 "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein
 we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in
 the oldness of the letter."

Now we delivered from the bondage of the law (the law cannot
 save, only condemn),being spiritually dead in that bondage (wages
 of sin is death); that NOW being converted we should serve in the
 (HOLY) Spirit, and not in outward appearance only (whited sepulchar).

7:7 "What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid.Nay, I had
 not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the
 law had said, Thou shalt not covet."
Shall we say the law is wrong? God forbid!!
 I would not have known I was sinning and lost and condemned if it
 was not for the law: I would not have known I was lusting if I did
 not know the law that says, thou shalt not covet.

7:8 "But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all
 manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was
 dead." Sin (transgression of the law), now that the law is known, revealed
 all manner of evil in me. Before I knew the law, I did not know sin. 

7:9 "For I was alive without the law once: but when the
 commandment came, sin revived, and I died."

I did not know I was under condemnation (death sentence) without
 a knowledge of the depth of the law: but when I found out about the
 depth of the law, that it reaches to the intents of the heart, then I
 became guilty and saw myself spiritually dead (the law slayed me).

7:10 "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to
 be unto death." And the commandments which are Holy and just, and given for our
 good, I found to cause my spiritual death (under the condemnation
 of the bronken law).

Poor Saul, he is really confused. He was brought under condemnation
 by the law of God and knows not how to get out from under the
 death sentence. He, like most other Pharisees, prided themselves in
 keeping the law, so it was quite a shock to him to find himself a law
 breaker. The Holy Spirit began to convince him of his sins after he
 participated in the stoning of Stephen.

7:11 "For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me,
 and by it slew me." For breaking the commandments that I then had knowledge of, I
 came under condemnation. I knew I was walking after the flesh.

7:12 "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and
 just, and good." I see the law is good.

7:13 "Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid.
 But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which
 is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding
 sinful."

Was the good law causing me to die? God forbid!!! The
 commandments showed me I was under condemnation and then I
 could see the great evil of breaking the commandments.

7:14 "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold
 under sin."

We know the Ten Commandments are of God, but I am unholy, and
 cannot help but sin. I am a slave to sin and cannot help myself. I
 cannot stop sinning. I have no good fruit in my life. I manifest the
 works of the flesh for I am carnal, of the flesh.

7:15 "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not;
 but what I hate, that do I."

Really, I cannot do good even though I really want to. I want to quit
 stealing, but I cannot. I want to love my neighbor, but I cannot. I
 hate taking the Lord's name in vain, but I do it.

It is clear from this sequence so far that Paul is taking us from the point before conversion to the point just after conversion. In vs 5 we clearly see the converted state. But in vs 6 we are given the moment of conviction - whereby the lost faces a choice to either reject Christ and cling to sin -- or to accept Christ and embrace the new nature that as you say "wants to love my neighbor".

However you appear to say in the case above that the lost earnestly desire obedience to God and that in their mind they are in harmony with Law of God. I don't see Rom 3:9-13 describing the lost in that way.

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · « **Reply #187 on:** November 14, 2008, 07:10:28 AM »

Let's try this in the form of a state chart --

Lost state

Quote

Romans 7
1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.

Saved State

Quote

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

Lost State

Quote

5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.

Saved State

Quote

6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Lost State – Convicted

Quote

7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "" YOU SHALL NOT COVET.''
8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

Quote
Rom 7

The Believer’s Sinful Nature

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.

Saved State – New Nature agreed fully with God’s Law;
But Overcome by Sinful nature – in need of supernatural help to WALK in perseverance
“So no LONGER am I the one doing it”

Quote

15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.

22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,

That v22 point is key-- the new Creation "in the inner man" has taken place and there is a nature within that is in full agreement with the Law of God. It is because of that change that Paul can make the argument for change "NO LONGER I am the one doing it"!

Quote

23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

asygo · « **Reply #188 on:** November 14, 2008, 05:07:16 PM »

Quote from: BobRyan on November 14, 2008, 07:10:28 AM

Saved State – New Nature agreed fully with God’s Law;
But Overcome by Sinful nature – in need of supernatural help to WALK in perseverance
“So no LONGER am I the one doing it”

The new nature is overcome by the sinful nature. That doesn't sound like the experience of the born again Christian. Let's look at 1Jn 5:18, next time...

JimB · « **Reply #189 on:** November 14, 2008, 07:59:52 PM »

The new creature has new desires. He is a new creature because God has give him a new heart. Not only does the new creature desire to do good but also has the power to do good. For this we can praise the Lord!

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

The divine nature does not sin just like a good tree doesn't produce bad fruit. It is free from sin. The truth has set the new creature free!!

Richard Myers · « **Reply #190 on:** November 14, 2008, 10:11:15 PM »

Quote from: BobRyan on November 14, 2008, 06:54:57 AM

However you appear to say in the case above that the lost earnestly desire obedience to God and that in their mind they are in harmony with Law of God. I don't see Rom 3:9-13 describing the lost in that way.

Way back at the beginning of this topic I explained.

7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present
with me."

I see a principle that even though I profess to be an Israelite, I am
not, I am evil. I do want to be a son of Abraham, but I am not
faithful as he was. I live as did Solomon when he fell.

7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:"

I love the law of God!!!

7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law
of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of
sin which is in my members."

But, I see another principle in my flesh warring against the law of
my mind, and bringing me into captivity to sin. I cannot resist sin. I cannot gain the victory over even "little" sins.

7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the
body of this death?

O wretched sinner that I am! Israel's One Great God cannot keep
me from sinning! I cannot keep myself from sinning! WHO, WHO,
WHO..... can deliver me from myself?Huh Is there not anyone that
can save me? I am condemned and lost.......

***************

What you seem to be teaching is that Saul knew how to keep the law of God, but did not. But, verse 24 clearly points out that at this time in Saul's life, he did not know Jesus as Lord and Saviour. And, Paul also very clearly points out that at this time in His life, he was was "captive" to sin (vs 23). A converted Christian is not captive to sin and Paul clearly taught that when converted he was free from this bondage.

Brother Bob, your teaching places our brethren in a place of great difficulty. According to your "gospel" one cannot tell if they are converted. It comes down to a "profession of faith", not a death to self. You are on a faulty foundation and therefore your interpretation of Scripture cannot be straight as you move forward. When one sins, you allow them to be guiltless because it is not them that sins.

And, we have no measure as to how long one may remain unrepentant before they lose their status in regards to eternal life.

But the Words of Jesus are simple and straight forward. One must be born again of the Spirit. They must have the Spirit of they are none of His. And, Jesus says that in order to possess eternal life (to the rich young ruler) he must keep the commandments. Keeping the commandments does not save, but it reveals the condition of the heart. One must abide in Christ and therefore be dead to self. The flesh is then kept under by the mind that is under the control of Christ. Praise God!

BobRyan · « **Reply #191 on:** November 17, 2008, 08:08:19 PM »

Quote from: asygo on November 14, 2008, 05:07:16 PM

Quote from: BobRyan on November 14, 2008, 07:10:28 AM
Saved State – New Nature agreed fully with God’s Law;
But Overcome by Sinful nature – in need of supernatural help to WALK in perseverance
“So no LONGER am I the one doing it”

The new nature is overcome by the sinful nature. That doesn't sound like the experience of the born again Christian. Let's look at 1Jn 5:18, next time...

If the lost sinner could ever claim as did Paul in Romans 7 "No longer am I the one doing it" they would have an out.

If the lost sinner could ever claim as did Paul in Romans 7 "with my Mind I AM serving the Law of God" then they could never be described by the Romans 3:8-12 text -- they would need "another".

in Christ,

Bob

asygo · « **Reply #192 on:** November 17, 2008, 08:19:14 PM »

Quote from: BobRyan on November 17, 2008, 08:08:19 PM

If the lost sinner could ever claim as did Paul in Romans 7 "No longer am I the one doing it" they would have an out.

How does that reconcile with 1Jn 3:6, 3:9, 5:18?

BTW, I don't think the unregenerate man can experience the war going on in Rom 7.

Richard Myers · « **Reply #193 on:** May 01, 2009, 11:54:33 AM »

The "new man" cannot experience Romans 7. Romans seven ends with conversion. Romans seven describes the conversion process that ends in conversion. It is Saul's experience at seeing himself spiritually dead in his sin. prior to the commandment coming home to his understanding, he thought he was right with God. But, the law, having no ability to save, condemned him just as he says elsewhere. The law is the schoolmaster that leads us to Christ.

Today, too many professing Christians believe they have eternal life when they do not. One of the chief teachings that deceives in this area, is the false teaching that Romans 7 is the Christian experience. It is not. It is the story of a man who thought he was alive, but found out that he was dead in his trespasses and sins. He did not know Jesus Christ. "O wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from the body of this death?" He did not know he needed a Saviour, but he came to understand that there was only evil in him, in his flesh. He was in quite a predicament. He could not save himself. He knew that he was condemned by the broken law, but he could not help himself, and no one else could help him, he thought. But, on the road to Damascus, he learned who it was that could help him. He learned that God had provided a remedy to his fatal condition.

asygo · « **Reply #194 on:** June 26, 2009, 02:40:34 PM »

Quote from: Richard Myers on March 10, 2007, 04:44:00 PM

Quote
Originally posted by asygo:
If it was past, was it before he was a "blameless" Pharisee or after?

Paul was a "blameless" Pharisee before he saw himself condemned by the broken law of God. In chapter seven, he is telling us about the period in his life when he had come to understand he was no longer "blameless".

We are told that Paul was "blameless" in terms of outward compliance with the law.

Did Paul continue that level of outward compliance during the experience described in Rom 7? Or did the experience of learning about God's requirements make him less compliant than he was before?

Richard Myers · « **Reply #195 on:** June 29, 2009, 11:25:36 PM »

He was "alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived" and he died. He then saw himself condemned by the broken law. Was he still "blameless"? In the eyes of God he was not blameless. In the eyes of other Pharisees he might appear blameless. In the eyes of the disciples he was a murderer. In his own eyes he was no longer blameless. He saw his guilt. The "school-master" had done its work. He was now ready to see Jesus. The cry of his heart was for help! "Who will deliver me from the body of this death?"

Cop · « **Reply #196 on:** August 02, 2009, 08:00:54 AM »

Romans 7:14-25: For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

That is a description of someone in conflict with himself, someone who loves God's moral law, someone who deep down in his inner most self wants to obey God's moral law, but is pulled and pushed away from its fulfillment by sin, sin that is in him. It is the experience of a soul in conflict. It is a battle. It is a warfare in the heart. The conflict is very real, it is very intense, it is very strong. It finds its summation in verse 25...or verse 24, "O wretched man that I am." There is a wretchedness about this battle. And then the cry, "Who shall deliver me?" And then the affirmation, "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord." But even knowing that, it concludes, "So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin."

Some people say this is a Christian being described. And some people say this is a non-Christian. One side says there is too much bondage to sin for a Christian. The other says there's too much desire for good for a non-Christian. You can't be a Christian and be bound to sin and you can't be a non-Christian and desire to keep the law of God. And therein is the conflict of interpreting the passage.

"For I delight in the law of God after the inward man." Does an unbeliever delight in the law of God after the inward man? You don't find such indication in the Scripture. In Romans 8:7, it says that the unregenerate person is not subject to the law of God.

In verse 25: "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord so then with the mind I myself serve the law of God." That sounds like a Christian to me for two reasons: thanking God through Jesus Christ our Lord and serving the law of God with his mind. It's a service of the heart. It's the service of the deepest part of man. The unregenerate sinner is at war with God and His Law. He hates anything that has any connection to God and refuses to be, "subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

Look at verse 15: "For that which I do, I know not; for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I." That says that there is a battle here because the deepest truest part of this individual wants to do what is right, but something keeps him from doing it. Is that true of an unregenerate sinner, that they really long to do what is right but are prevented from doing it? Not according to Jeremiah who said the heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Look at verse 18, "For I know that in me, that is in my flesh, dwells no good thing, for to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I find not." And again it's the same idea, something deep inside me wants to do what is right.

There is no battle within the heart of the unregenerate person to do what is good. The unregenerate sinner has no desire to do that which is right and good. He does not lament that, "what I hate, that do I." But in the soul of the born again man, there is war and a continuing battle against his sinful inclinations, a desire to overcome and gain the victory over the power of sin in his life.

Verse 19: "For the good that I would, I do not; the evil which I would not, that do I." You have it in verse 21, "I find then a law that when I would do good, evil is present with me." So the heart and the soul and the mind and deep within the individual longs to do what is good. The bent is toward good. But there is an evil principle there that wars against the desire to cease sinning.

Whoever this is, he longs to do good things and finds himself doing what? Bad things. As far as I can read Romans, chapter 3, the evil person has no longing to do the will of God. "There is none good, no not one." In Romans 3 he says everything about them is bad, everything. "There is none that understands. There is none that seeketh after God." Verse 11, "Nobody seeks God's purposes, God's holy will, God's holy moral law. There is no fear of God before their eyes." They have no regard for Him or His law.

The conflict here, the tension, the battle between what Paul says I delight in, I love, I approve, I want, I long to do, and that that he actually does, I believe, can only be true in a redeemed person. I don't really think in an unregenerate person, an unredeemed person, an unsaved person that there really is much of a battle at all. We don't believe for a moment that people without God are basically really good people, who just can't seem to pull it off. We believe they're really evil people who act out the evil that's inside them.

Richard Myers · « **Reply #197 on:** August 02, 2009, 08:47:40 AM »

Good to have you back, dear brother!!

The fallen nature does not preclude one from knowing what is right and wrong. When one finds that they are under condemnation because they have broken the law, there is a desire to do what is right to escape the judgment sure to come. I man can want to do good all day long, but this does not make one a Christian. When we are separated from God, we are none of His. It is only Christ in us that makes us His. Yes, when Moses struck the Rock, he was still one of God's chosen people, and yes, Jesus still loved him, and yes, he had been converted, and yes, it was his only sin for many many years, but when he struck Christ Jesus, he was not abiding in Christ, he was aligned with Satan and doing his bidding.

Before conversion, it is even more so. Man has a conscience, but he has no power to keep the law as the poor wretched Saul in Romans 7. A false interpretation of this passage is used to excuse sin in those who say that grace cannot keep them from sinning. They say that this is the Christian experience, doing what they know is wrong and not doing what they ought to do.

The last verse of Romans 7 would be better put in the beginning of Romans 8 since it reveals how it is that a Christian can overcome sin. The whole argument today involves the truth as it is in Jesus. He is the One who keeps us from sinning. The false teachers will say that the sinner has eternal life while sinning. This keeps multitudes from Jesus. They do not see their need of a doctor because they have been told they are not sick. Sin always reveals a separation from God.

Tim2 · « **Reply #198 on:** October 25, 2009, 01:36:09 PM »

The husband is either flesh or the spirit. Our will (the woman) can not serve the spirit until the old man is dead. Otherwise it's adultry. Once the old husband is dead, then "will" can marry the new man. How often do we have to kill the old man? Paul said "I die daily." It's really more often than that that our old man tries to revive. Paul is speaking to those who know the law; not those who don't know it. Many in the church have tried to marry another while legally united to their old man, but the flesh (that evil that is present with me vs 21) is with us until Glorification. We became sinners in Adam the moment he sinned. By the one we were made (ordained) sinners. Sinners are what we are, not just what we do. We have sinfull natures. That's why the flesh war's against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh. The body of this death is flesh vs 24. EGW says gird yourselves for a lifelong battle with self. Many get discouraged because they think they should not be having this battle with the flesh after conversion. It's this misteaching of Rom 7 that is partially to blame. Mrs. White understood what Paul was saying and I'll get some quotes for us when I have time. Read Rom 7 again with this way of looking at it and see what you think.

Romans 7
1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law ofher husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Richard Myers · « **Reply #199 on:** October 25, 2009, 10:13:37 PM »

I purposefully left out the first four verses of Romans 7. I think it can be a topic unto itself. It is important to a discussion of the old and new covenants. So, for now, let us begin with verse 5. Brother Tim, have you read the whole thread? If so, in which verse do you first find a problem with what I have shared?

And a question for you while you are considering that....do you believe that when Jesus is in the heart, we sin? When a man is abiding in Christ, will he sin a known sin?