Author Topic: Romans 7 and 8  (Read 242931 times)

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Richard Myers

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #240 on: September 17, 2012, 07:13:27 PM »
There are times when some who say they believe in being saved from sin will argue that Romans 7 is the Christian experience. They then try to make it fit. While I have believed some of these who profess this faith, I try to explain to them that while their understanding may be correct in regards to the gospel, most who believe Romans 7 is the Christian experience believe just what our sister Carla believes, that one is saved in sin. That one does not need to be rejustified after sinning. This is the common teaching in the fallen churches and is the predominate teaching within our church also.

The statement you quote, Carla, says character, not salvation. The two do not have the same definition, but it is one of the chief arguments used when attempting to defeat the gospel of grace. The power of grace is to transform the life. When one is abiding in Christ, He is filled with the Holy Spirit. He will not be tempted beyond what he can bear, unless he lets go of Jesus. Then, if we have not His Spirit we are none of His. When believing as you do, when do you cross the line? When do you not have eternal life? Can you tell? Is there something in the Bible that tells you when you have life and when you don't? How an you tell when you are not abiding in Christ?  How long can you go without Jesus and still retain your justification for salvation?
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Carla Hepker

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #241 on: September 17, 2012, 07:39:59 PM »
There are times when some who say they believe in being saved from sin will argue that Romans 7 is the Christian experience. They then try to make it fit. While I have believed some of these who profess this faith, I try to explain to them that while their understanding may be correct in regards to the gospel, most who believe Romans 7 is the Christian experience believe just what our sister Carla believes, that one is saved in sin. That one does not need to be rejustified after sinning. This is the common teaching in the fallen churches and is the predominate teaching within our church also.

The statement you quote, Carla, says character, not salvation. The two do not have the same definition, but it is one of the chief arguments used when attempting to defeat the gospel of grace. The power of grace is to transform the life. When one is abiding in Christ, He is filled with the Holy Spirit. He will not be tempted beyond what he can bear, unless he lets go of Jesus. Then, if we have not His Spirit we are none of His. When believing as you do, when do you cross the line? When do you not have eternal life? Can you tell? Is there something in the Bible that tells you when you have life and when you don't? How an you tell when you are not abiding in Christ?  How long can you go without Jesus and still retain your justification for salvation?

I do not believe that one is saved in sin.

Please don't put words in my mouth!



Richard Myers

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #242 on: September 17, 2012, 08:09:57 PM »
Do you believe one is saved while sinning?
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Carla Hepker

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #243 on: September 18, 2012, 04:15:49 AM »
Do you believe one is saved while sinning?

No.

Mimi

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #244 on: September 18, 2012, 06:25:09 AM »
Of course, she doesn't.

Let's look at this again:

Rom 7:1  Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2  For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3  So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4  Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5  For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6  But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Rom 7:7  What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8  But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9  For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10  And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11  For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12  Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13  Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14  For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15  For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16  If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17  Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18  For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19  For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20  Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21  I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


At the beginning of this chapter, Paul lays a little groundwork previously described in this thread. Then, he begins to explain how he discovered what sin is. He was sorely convicted! Up until that time he was a self-described "blameless" pharisee. But the law showed him he was carnal, sold under sin. He is battling sin because he is convicted. The carnal mind is at emnity against God. This is a man convicted by the Holy Spirit. Being a good Pharisee, he respects the law. And with new eyes he sees himself wretched as compared to the law he acknowledges is holy, just and good. It is at that moment he realizes he is spiritually dead. ("when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.") The chapter is about the battle prior to conversion.

Continuing, how would a good pharisee respond to this discovery? They would legalistically work their way back into compliance with the law - outwardly. Poor Paul. Then, he explains how he has no power to overcome, no power to perform acts of righteousness. He could not keep the law in his own power. Then we get to verse 24 with his infamous question. "Who will deliver me?" Verse 25 gives the answer - only through Christ Jesus.

It is not enough to perceive the loving-kindness of God, to see the benevolence, the fatherly tenderness, of His character. It is not enough to discern the wisdom and justice of His law, to see that it is founded upon the eternal principle of love. Paul the apostle saw all this when he exclaimed, "I consent unto the law that it is good." "The law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." But he added, in the bitterness of his soul-anguish and despair, "I am carnal, sold under sin." Romans 7:16, 12, 14. He longed for the purity, the righteousness, to which in himself he was powerless to attain, and cried out, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death?" Romans 7:24, margin. Such is the cry that has gone up from burdened hearts in all lands and in all ages. To all, there is but one answer, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29.  {SC 19.1} 

Here are a few more quotes from Inspiration:

Our God is a jealous God. He will not be trifled with. Those who make straight paths for their feet must confess their sins. Then God's wisdom will overrule their mistakes for their own good and for the good of his people. He will give them the heavenly anointing, and they will see that his hand is leading his people in the right way. They will see how dangerous was the path upon which they entered when they allowed Satan to control them.  {RH, June 3, 1902 par. 5}
     It was very humiliating for Saul to learn that all the time he had thought he was doing God service, he had been persecuting Christ, using his power against the truth. The Saviour revealed himself to Saul, and the Pharisee was filled with abhorrence of himself and his work. He was made physically blind by the glory of him whom in the past he had blasphemed, but it was that he might have spiritual sight. During the days and nights of his blindness, he had time for reflection, and he no longer saw himself righteous but sinful, his thoughts, words, and actions, condemned by the law. The thought of his zeal in persecuting God's people filled him with bitter remorse. Hopeless and helpless, he cast himself on Jesus as the only one who could pardon him, and clothe him with righteousness.  {RH, June 3, 1902 par. 6}
     My brethren, some of you have been doing as Saul did,--despising the messages God has sent for the salvation of his people. You have used your capabilities to make God's work of none effect. You need to repent and be forgiven. Unless you have this experience, you cannot be saved.  {RH, June 3, 1902 par. 7}
     It was a hard struggle for Paul--heretofore able to say of himself, as far as outward acts were concerned, as "touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless"--to see himself a transgressor, all his supposed goodness swept away. It was a hard struggle for him to give up his supposed righteousness, and cast himself for salvation on the One he had despised. But he yielded to the convictions of the Spirit. The far-reaching claims of the law of God took hold of his life, reaching to the thoughts and emotions of his sin-corrupted heart. With eyes anointed by the grace of God, he saw the mistakes of his life. From a proud Pharisee, who thought himself justified by his good works, he was changed to a humble suppliant for mercy. The tongue, once so ready to blaspheme the name of Christ, became eloquent in sounding the praises of him who had called him out of darkness into his marvelous light.  {RH, June 3, 1902 par. 8}


If the sinner or the backslider settles himself in sin, the light of heaven may flash about him to no purpose, as it did about Saul when the bewitching power of the world's deception was upon him. Unless the human agent inclines his will to do the will of God, as finally Saul did, the light will shine in vain, and a thousand-fold more light and evidence would do no good. God knows when the sinner has sufficient evidence, and says to such, "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them." "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."  {ST, February 12, 1894 par. 6}
     Paul had a terrible awakening when the light from heaven flashed upon him, and a voice said to him, "Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?" Paul answered, "Who art thou, Lord?" And Christ said, "I am Jesus whom thou persecutest; it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks." And the Lord said, "Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do." The Lord always gives the human agent his work to do. Paul was to work in compliance with the divine command. If Saul had said, "Lord, I am not in the least inclined to follow your directions in working out my salvation," then, should the Lord have showered upon him a light tenfold as bright, it would have been useless. It is man's part to cooperate with the divine. Here is where the conflict is to be sternest, hardest, and most fierce--in yielding the will and way to God's will and way, relying upon the gracious influences which God has exerted upon the human soul throughout all the life. The man must do the work of inclining. "For it is God that worketh in you both to will and to do." The character of the actions will testify what has been the nature of the resolve. The doing was not in accordance with feeling and natural inclination, but in harmony with the will of the Father in heaven. Follow and obey the leadings of the Holy Spirit; obey not the voice of the deceiver, which is in harmony with the unsanctified will, but obey the impulse God has given. This is what the heavenly intelligences are constantly working to have us do,--the will of our Father which is in heaven.  {ST, February 12, 1894 par. 7} 
  For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. Psalm 119:89 

Mimi

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #245 on: September 18, 2012, 06:29:36 AM »
Quote
"For it is God that worketh in you both to will and to do."

Paul describes his inability to "do" in Chapter 7. It is only through Christ Jesus that he can.
  For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. Psalm 119:89 

colporteur

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #246 on: September 18, 2012, 09:55:55 AM »
Is a person unconverted until he reaches a point of being ready for translation?

If a person is steadily growing in Christ and being chiseled and shaped by God but still not perfect and while driving home becomes angry at another driver who cuts him off and before having opportunity to repent is killed in a head on collision is the person in an unconverted state and lost?

Has every saved person who has died reached translation status in terms victory over all sin ? If not did they die unconverted ?
It's easier to slow a fast horse down than to get a dead one going.

Richard Myers

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #247 on: September 18, 2012, 01:07:51 PM »
Translation is not conversion. The thief on the cross was not translated. The perfection that one must attain to in order to be translated is reaching a state where he will never sin again.  There are many who are laid to rest to save their souls. This is to say that if they lived, not only would they sin again, but they would turn away and by lost.

This has nothing to do with who has the heart. What you and Carla have stated is that one may have life when separated from Jesus. That is impossible. We must have Christ to have life. If we do not have His Spirit, we do not have life. What we are presenting, you are arguing against. We are teaching that the sinner has no power without Christ. And if we have Christ, we have power to resist all known sin. The glory in this gospel message goes to God, not man.

In your human wisdom, cp, you present a tradition that has taken hold in many churches. You present an example that would contradict Scripture in that you give life to one who is separated from God. And, you present another option that is not Biblical either. You would end one's probation when God would keep it open. You neglect to believe that God is in control of all that happens in His universe. He does not make all things happen, but nothing happens that He does not allow to happen. I think you understand that the only reason you are alive today is because He has protected you when Satan would have killed you. God gives to man a period of probation in which we are to learn of Him. We are to make a choice to serve Him or to continue to serve self. In your example, you only gave two choices, but there are more. The two choices you gave both are antagonistic to Bible truth. God is a God of grace and justice. Neither are sacrificed in His government, instead He sacrificed His Son that both grace and justice would be revealed. 

God would not allow the faithful Christian to perish without opportunity to repent. Your example makes God appear as arbitrary which He is not. Or, the other choice is to save one without repentance which would be to immortalize sin. The wages of one sin is death. But, your teaching gives life to one who sins just one sin.  Here is what God has to say on this subject:
Again, When a righteous [man] doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous [man], that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul." Ezekiel 3:20, 21. 

One verse does not make up God's truth. Ezekiel understood as did John. John was the last of the apostles to live and he had to meet the lies that had come into the Christian Church. Here is what  he had to say about sin. "And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.  And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.  He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.  In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." 1 John 3:3-10.

The truth is beautiful. When taken in context, not only does John express the truth about sin, but he explain why it is that the converted Christian does not sin, it is because he is born of God's Spirit. Jesus put it this way "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." John 3:6,7. And, as I stated before, if we have not His Spirit, we are none of His.

Carla and cp, we know you love God and want to keep His commandments. We are not judging your experience. But, we must be faithful to present the truth of the power of God's grace to keep us from sinning. We must help all to see that sin is a hateful thing, for it hurts God and others as well as us. There is no excuse for sin. When we sin, we need to repent of it. We need to see that sin is a result of separation from God. When we see this, then we will see our need of Jesus at all times. We then realize why it is that we sin, we have taken our eyes off of Jesus. We are no longer abiding in Him and He in us. Then we will understand that because He loves us, He does not forsake us, but is standing at the door of the heart knocking, wanting to come back in.

Many believe they are rich and increased with goods, they believe thy have life when in fact they do not. Therefore, they do not listen for that still small voice which is pleading for entrance. Sin reveals a separation. When we realize this, then we will fall at the foot of the cross and ask for Jesus to take our hearts for we cannot give them. It is His love, His grace that transforms the life.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Carla Hepker

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #248 on: September 18, 2012, 03:06:53 PM »
Carla and cp, we know you love God and want to keep His commandments. We are not judging your experience. But, we must be faithful to present the truth of the power of God's grace to keep us from sinning. We must help all to see that sin is a hateful thing, for it hurts God and others as well as us. There is no excuse for sin. When we sin, we need to repent of it. We need to see that sin is a result of separation from God. When we see this, then we will see our need of Jesus at all times. We then realize why it is that we sin, we have taken our eyes off of Jesus. We are no longer abiding in Him and He in us. Then we will understand that because He loves us, He does not forsake us, but is standing at the door of the heart knocking, wanting to come back in.

Many believe they are rich and increased with goods, they believe thy have life when in fact they do not. Therefore, they do not listen for that still small voice which is pleading for entrance. Sin reveals a separation. When we realize this, then we will fall at the foot of the cross and ask for Jesus to take our hearts for we cannot give them. It is His love, His grace that transforms the life.

Yes, I, as a converted Christian, need to repent when I sin. I am not un-converted because I sin. I took my eyes off of Jesus and now I need to come repentant. I don't need to be converted again. I need my past (recent past) sins forgiven and I need to go forward in Christ knowing that He IS able to keep me from falling.

I would postulate that since your conversion some years ago you have sinned. At that point were you unconverted? Am I wrong in this postulation?

Oh, yes, we need to be faithful to present the truth of the power of God's grace to keep us from sinning. I encourage my class members to walk out the door knowing that in Him they can walk in the light and free from sin. But if we, like you are saying, indicate that we have no sin then we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8.  But, if we admit, and confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9.

John continues, My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. Yes. That is my goal, today and every day! AND if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 1 John 2:1 And I am saved by FAITH in God's grace to forgive me when I fail Him. That does NOT make me unconverted.

God will have a people who perfectly represent Him, here on this earth, when He comes. It is my heart's desire, by the power of God, to be in that group.

Richard Myers

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #249 on: September 18, 2012, 05:21:02 PM »

Yes, I, as a converted Christian, need to repent when I sin. I am not un-converted because I sin. I took my eyes off of Jesus and now I need to come repentant. I don't need to be converted again.

You appear to be saying you can serve two masters at the same time. When we sin, are we serving Christ? Are we filled with His Spirit? No. We are serving Satan. Do you disagree? If you do, then you are saying that with Jesus abiding in me, I sin. I say that is impossible. The Bible says it is impossible. "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

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I need my past (recent past) sins forgiven and I need to go forward in Christ knowing that He IS able to keep me from falling.
Does His promise fail, that he will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you can bear? No. His promises never fail. We need to understand why we sin.

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I would postulate that since your conversion some years ago you have sinned. At that point were you unconverted? Am I wrong in this postulation?
You are right, but what has that to do with the Bible truth? Nothing.

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Oh, yes, we need to be faithful to present the truth of the power of God's grace to keep us from sinning. I encourage my class members to walk out the door knowing that in Him they can walk in the light and free from sin. But if we, like you are saying, indicate that we have no sin then we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8.  But, if we admit, and confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9.

You have confused me with what you believe. To free from sin? What does that mean? Does it mean to not sin? If so, you then want me to believe that to be free from sin does not mean we have no sin. And that to be cleansed from all unrighteousness does not mean we have no sin. Please explain so we don't misunderstand you.

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John continues, My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. Yes. That is my goal, today and every day! AND if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 1 John 2:1

And what happens when you have no advocate? When Jesus leaves the sanctuary? What will you then do with your sins that you say you still have?

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And I am saved by FAITH in God's grace to forgive me when I fail Him. That does NOT make me unconverted.

To be honest with you, Carla, I must be converted daily. I am not sure why you find it so difficult to believe we must be reconverted daily, and also when we sin. How often have you been converted? It sounds like only once. This is a species of "once saved always saved".  Let me give you an example that may make you feel better. Jesus walked into the upper room and found His disciples full of self. They were unconverted. Each was vying for the highest place. None would wash each other's feet, nor would they wash the feet of Jesus. They had lost their connection with Christ. They were in need of being reconverted. Is this true? When they left that room, were they then converted?

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God will have a people who perfectly represent Him, here on this earth, when He comes. It is my heart's desire, by the power of God, to be in that group.

Amen! I believe you. But, more important than being in that group who have no sin, is what we do today. Today, while probation lingers, we must understand that most are unconverted. And, some who have been converted are wandering in and out of conversion.  This is why there are so many perplexities in the church. Most have been buried alive. And, because they have not understood what conversion is, they believe they are rich and increased with goods, but know not that we as a people are miserable, poor, wretched, and blind.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

colporteur

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #250 on: September 18, 2012, 07:13:34 PM »
Richard;

 It is interesting that I have meerly asked two questions  for clarification and another would  decide to know my whole theological position. My thinking has been misrepresented so many times in your one post that I will not take time correcting it all. 

Do you believe that while a personal is growing in Christ gaining the victory daily over sin that if he misteps/sins before he reaches the high standard preparatory to translation that he is unconverted and therefore lost ?

It sounds like you believe that there is a rollercoster saved/ lost/ saved /lost condition of those who are growing in Christ daily. Is this what you believe? 

You said " I would end someone's probation when God keeps it open?"  Where did you get such an idea ? You are worrying me.   

 I asked two questions and you came back with "you "you" "you" "you" "you."  You just did the same with the previous poster and another corrected you. Please consider what you are doing.

At least we agree that we must be converted and reconverted daily. Sanctification and conversion is a process. We are not unconverted because during the process we have not fully attained yet.



 

 

It's easier to slow a fast horse down than to get a dead one going.

colporteur

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #251 on: September 18, 2012, 07:38:15 PM »
Some may think that because we must be converted and reconverted daily that this necessarily means we are sinning daily. Not so. I stop at the stop sign down on the corner every day. That does not mean that because I need to stop there every day that I have refused to do so one day. The analogy is not perfect but they seldom are.

As we are growing in wisdom and knowledge we are changing daily through the working of the Holy Spirit. In order to do that we must continue along the path of sanctification. This is what it means to be converted daily.

I'm not sure why this is a point of contention. If we are growing in Christ daily and putting away sin, if we are being renewed daily, converted and reconverted daily, a blip here or there along that journey previous to perfection ought not cause us to be discouraged and lose hope. Our relationship with Christ is not destroyed because we stumble once along the path. It may be weakened but it is not gone.
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Richard Myers

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #252 on: September 18, 2012, 10:39:25 PM »

I'm not sure why this is a point of contention. If we are growing in Christ daily and putting away sin, if we are being renewed daily, converted and reconverted daily, a blip here or there along that journey previous to perfection ought not cause us to be discouraged and lose hope. Our relationship with Christ is not destroyed because we stumble once along the path. It may be weakened but it is not gone.

I have never come close to suggesting that one ought to be discouraged when they sin, especially if it is a little "blip".  The point of contention is a most important one. Both you and Carla have stated very clearly that when one sins he retains his justification, that means he has eternal life when he is sinning. Now, if I misunderstood you, then please correct my understanding.  When Moses, after a life of faithfulness struck the rock, he was not in a converted state. He was serving Satan, not Christ. He did not retain his justification. He did not have eternal life, he was separated from God. And because of his sin, being a great sin, he had to die. But, because he had repented, he was justified and raised from the grave and taken to heaven.

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Our relationship with Christ is not destroyed because we stumble once along the path. It may be weakened but it is not gone.
Yes, this is called character and is the intent of the statement quoted by Carla about one misdeed. But, character is not salvation. What you have said has much truth in it. When Moses sinned, it was out of character for him. That does not mean that he was serving God when he sinned, he was not. But, it was his character to turn to God. So, when he heard the still small voice speaking to him, that he has hurt Jesus, what did he do? He turned back to Jesus. He repented and was rejustified.  Now, cp, most are not like Moses with one little blip. Sadly, many who have been converted have a lot of not so little blips. So, unless they understand that they do not possess eternal life  when sinning, they will not develop the character that you are speaking of.  The "little sins" are seen as the Christian experience. "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I."  No, that is not the experience of a converted Christian. Read Romans eight. That is the experience of a converted Christian. 

  8:8   So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 
  8:9   But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 
  8:10   And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness. 
  8:11   But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 
  8:12   Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 
  8:13   For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 


This experience is not the experience described in Romans 7.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Richard Myers

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #253 on: September 18, 2012, 11:07:36 PM »

Do you believe that while a personal is growing in Christ gaining the victory daily over sin that if he misteps/sins before he reaches the high standard preparatory to translation that he is unconverted and therefore lost ?

Translation has nothing to do with this conversation. There have only been two people translated that we know of. We are discussing conversion and eternal life. You ask of when one sins, if he is unconverted. You know what I have said. One does not sin when he is connected to Christ, when he is converted. Sin is a revelation of separation from God and none have eternal life when they are separated from God. When one sins he is serving Satan and cannot therefore be serving Christ. It is a very simple Christian doctrine. We all know the Scripture.

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It sounds like you believe that there is a rollercoster saved/ lost/ saved /lost condition of those who are growing in Christ daily. Is this what you believe? 

That sounds like you are describing your experience. I have never said it is a roller coaster experience. Matter of fact, you just got through saying that ONE little blip does not mean one  is unconverted. Now you are saying we are talking about a continual process of sinning and repenting. You seem have said that when one is growing in Christ daily they are sinning, repenting, sinning, repenting, sinning, repenting. Is that what you believe?  And if one is on this roller coaster ride as you describe, what is there spiritual state all the time. It sounds like you would give them life even though it is not One little blip?  I do not want to say what you do not believe, but that appears to be what you are saying. What did you mean by roller coaster if not a life of sin and repentance?

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You said "I would end someone's probation when God keeps it open?"  Where did you get such an idea ? You are worrying me.

It  was your example to say that one is saved when he is sinning.

If a person is steadily growing in Christ and being chiseled and shaped by God but still not perfect and while driving home becomes angry at another driver who cuts him off and before having opportunity to repent is killed in a head on collision is the person in an unconverted state and lost?

This is a common teaching to support what you believe, that a person can sin and still be converted.  To make it appear that this is true the example you gave it used. You only give two results if one has been a faithful Christian and one day gets angry and sins. The two results are 1. he is eternally lost. 2. he is saved in his sin. Neither of which are true.  If you believe this is the only result when someone sins and has not fully rejected God, that he can die, then you are saying that God would not keep the man from dying. I believe He does all the time.  You made it appear that the man could die when he did one little sin after a life of faithfulness. We as a people believe in God granting to sinful man a period of probation in which temporal life is granted that one may choose to serve God instead of self and Satan. If we really believe this, then it is up to God as to when a man can die. God keeps our heart beating moment by moment, day by day. Satan would have killed me long ago, if God had not kept him from dong so. It is an easy matter for God to keep the man from dying who had become angry and sinned. Hope this helps you to see the principle involved.

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At least we agree that we must be converted and reconverted daily. Sanctification and conversion is a process. We are not unconverted because during the process we have not fully attained yet.
No, we are not unconverted because we have not fully attained. Sin reveals a lack of conversion. When one sins he is unconverted. You seem to be always wanting to reach a state of translation, but God did not bring the thief on the cross to that state. He brought the man to a full surrender where his heart was cleansed, his motives were pure and holy. That is not the same as having attained to a position where one would be translated. Jim shared the words of Jesus about sin. Do you think it possible to get bad fruit (sin) from a good tree? Jesus said it is not possible. There is no excuse for sin. Let us not make any and say that when we abide in Christ, we may sin.  "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."   The truth is simple when it comes to the foundation of our faith.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

colporteur

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #254 on: September 19, 2012, 09:56:55 AM »
Richard you proposed to think what my Experience with God is and it was a cheap shot. If I did that with you I would say that you sound like you are ready were ready for translation when you were converted and are waiting for the rest of us to get it right. I know that talking about transaltion troubles you. I bring up that topic because that is the condition God's people must be in before and when probation closes. Ypu have indicated that God will let no one die before probation closes until they reach a point where they have attained a state when sin even in a single thought is their experience 100%. Do you think Martin Luther reached that standard before he died ? Somehow I doubt it. God did not keep him alive.

I do not believe there is anyone who when converted instantaneously never sinned again even in a single thought. Is that your experience ? Therefore the progress through life has been several steps forward and occasionally a step back. We learn from failures as well as success. Otherwise you are declaring that Justification alone is all there is and that sinnless sanctification takes place at justification and we have eccentially arrived then.

 You have said that if a person ever sins he at that point is unconverted and lost and God would necessarily keep him alive until he could repent. Did God do that with Samson ? To say that God is going to keep you alive until you get it right is interesting.  Once you were converted was there ever a mistake/ sin in your life after that ? Did you repent ?  If so then you experienced a roller coaster experience of victory and falling. Sanctification is not a perfect growth without ever a stuble along the way. Ultimately God's people will reach what He has called them to be and will not sin even by a single thought.

You seem to indicate that I am not talking victory over sin. I am simply saying that a relationship with God does not crash and burn because as we are growing we may stubble along the way. One deed does not a realtionship make neither is it gone because someone faulters along the way.

I think if you would spend more time gaining the victory and maintaining the victory over sin than you do thinking you know everyone elses experience and hairsplitting in these areas there would not be people driven from the forum because you think they/we are promoting sin.
It's easier to slow a fast horse down than to get a dead one going.

Mimi

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #255 on: September 19, 2012, 10:13:20 AM »
Here are a few questions I have contemplated through the years regarding our subject at hand. I ask them not to be contentious, but to reasonably ask, based upon all we know the Bible says of whom we are in Christ Jesus:

>>Are we more than conquerors? Yes, we are – Romans 8:37.

>>Are we accepted in the Beloved? Yes, we are – Ephesians 1:16.

>>Have we been delivered from the law of sin and death that Satan is determined to make us slaves to? Yes, we have been – Romans 8:2.

>>Who can do all things through Christ who strengthens me? We can – Philippians 4:13.

All of this is ours through the powerful grace of Christ Jesus. Anything stating the opposite cannot be of Him. Consider the following: 

What are the characteristics of a converted Christian who dies daily, who is continually abiding and growing in Christ, and who is delivered, nay redeemed from the law of sin and death? Let’s do some comparisons of a few verses in Romans with those found elsewhere in the Bible to see who the converted Christian is, and is that what is described in Romans 7.



•   Romans 7:14 says:  Rom 7:14  For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Is that a characteristic of a Christian, everything we know a Christian to be? No. Carnal, sold under sin is outside of Christ.

Conversely, review these contrasting verses:

1Timothy 1:9 says: 1Ti 1:9  Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, etc.
1Corinthians 2:16  But we have the mind of Christ.
Philippians 2:5  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Rom 8:6 & 7  For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.



•   Romans 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Contrast the following verses:

Philippians 4:13  I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
John 15:4  Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15:5  I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Matthew 19:26  But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.



•   Romans 7:17  Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Contrast the following verses:

1Corinthians 3:16  Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Colossians 1:27  To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Romans 8:7-10  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.   But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


  • Romans 7:18  For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth...
Luke 24:49  And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
2Peter 1:3  According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Timothy 1:7  For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
Ephesians 3:17 - 21  That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end.   


  • Romans 7:21  I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Jas 4:7  Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8  Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

The comparison of just these few verses is stark. There are so many more verses that could be added. It is something to consider.
  For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. Psalm 119:89 

colporteur

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #256 on: September 19, 2012, 10:31:46 AM »
I believe we are talking about absolute victory over sin. Not just because we are covered by grace but because through the power of Christ we cease to sin. I think we agree on all points in that arena.

Where the disagreement seems to be is regarding one's condition while he is growing in Christ during the sanctification process.

To say that God keeps people alive until they have repented and then lays them to rest before they can sin again is legalism. It is not victory over sin. That is like saying a person has a problem with pornography, for instance. He repents and before he can turn on the computer again God takes his life away to save him. That is a legalistic technicality. God is interested in the heart and the trend of the life. Of course the trend of the life will not be good enough when there is no longer One to mediate on behalf of the people.

We are seen as promoting cheap grace. What is MY concern?  That a false theology breaks the back of those growing in Christ because they are in a saving relationship one day and lost the next because they have not yet attained what God will bring them to, that is, if they do not become discouraged and throw in the towel. We are not to toy with sin. Neither ought we break the back of someone who is struggling in their walk with God and quench their hope. It is also a concern to me when we think we read the hearts and Chrisitian experience of our brethren. Is that not sin ?


 


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Richard Myers

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #257 on: September 19, 2012, 10:39:39 AM »
Richard you proposed to think what my Experience with God is and it was a cheap shot. If I did that with you I would say that you sound like you are ready were ready for translation when you were converted and are waiting for the rest of us to get it right. I know that talking about transaltion troubles you. I bring up that topic because that is the condition God's people must be in before and when probation closes. Ypu have indicated that God will let no one die before probation closes until they reach a point where they have attained a state when sin even in a single thought is their experience 100%. Do you think Martin Luther reached that standard before he died ? Somehow I doubt it. God did not keep him alive.

cp, I am sorry that you took my comment in that manner. I do not know what you experience is. I said it sounded like, not that it was. I was only expressing what you were leading us to believe, that those who are growing daily in Christ are having a roller coaster experience. I did not say that. It was you who made the statement:  "It sounds like you believe that there is a rollercoster saved/ lost/ saved /lost condition of those who are growing in Christ daily." When you look at the life of Moses, he did not have a roller coaster experience. But, he did fall just before his death. When he was angry and proud, you would say it was just a "blip" and it was. But, a man converted and full of the Spirit of God does not manifest this selfishness seen in Moses when he struck the Rock. Moses is in heaven, but he was not ready for translation.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Richard Myers

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #258 on: September 19, 2012, 11:08:01 AM »
If I did that with you I would say that you sound like you are ready were ready for translation when you were converted and are waiting for the rest of us to get it right. I know that talking about transaltion troubles you. I bring up that topic because that is the condition God's people must be in before and when probation closes.

I am happy to talk about translation, but it has nothing to do with our discussion. Only two men have been translated that we know of. We are talking about conversion, not translation.

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Ypu have indicated that God will let no one die before probation closes until they reach a point where they have attained a state when sin even in a single thought is their experience 100%. Do you think Martin Luther reached that standard before he died ? Somehow I doubt it. God did not keep him alive.

I don't know what you mean when you say "even in a single thought is their experience 100%." I have not said that. I said that the thief on the cross will be in heaven. That he had repented of all his sins before he died. You have made the statements about him needing to be ready for translation to enter heaven. At least that seems what you want. I am not saying one must be ready for translation to be converted. I said that if one sins, he is not converted. You are making this to be something it is not. You want to give life to one who is outside of Christ. That cannot be. Because one must be abiding in Christ to be converted, does not mean they are ready for translation. You are making some faulty assumptions.

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I do not believe there is anyone who when converted instantaneously never sinned again even in a single thought.
I don't believe that either. You again are making assumptions that are not true. If you reread what I have said, you will not find that statement.

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Is that your experience ? Therefore the progress through life has been several steps forward and occasionally a step back. We learn from failures as well as success. Otherwise you are declaring that Justification alone is all there is and that sinnless sanctification takes place at justification and we have eccentially arrived then.
  No, that is not what I said, nor what I believe.

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You have said that if a person ever sins he at that point is unconverted and lost and God would necessarily keep him alive until he could repent.


Let's clarify this so that we will not be confused. I said that if a person sins, it reveals a separation from God. This indicates that the person needs to be reconverted. Just like we need to be converted every day. A person separated from God does not have life. He is therefore in a lost state at that moment. Just as a person who had never been converted is in a lost condition. That does not mean he cannot be saved. I said that God gives to man a period of probation, temporal life, time to accept the sacrifice of Christ. God wants more for us and the world than just my salvation. He therefore, unlike the thief on the cross, gives us more than conversion. He want to reveal Himself to the world through His people. Therefore, he will teach His people to be more like Him. This is called sanctification the work of a lifetime. It does not mean that one cannot go to heaven today if they are converted and die. It means that God wants more for us and leaves us here that others might be saved.

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Did God do that with Samson ? To say that God is going to keep you alive until you get it right is interesting.  Once you were converted was there ever a mistake/ sin in your life after that ? Did you repent ?  If so then you experienced a roller coaster experience of victory and falling.

It is not interesting, it is truth. Do you disagree? Unlike you, cp, I am not offended by the thought that after I was converted, I had to learn my dependence upon Christ, so like Peter, I fell into the water. The difference is not only that I had that experience, but I came to know that when I fell, I did so because I was not looking at Jesus. I was not converted, I was full of self. Yes, I was indeed converted when I became a Christian, but because the truth was not being widely taught, I had to learn what it meant to be converted. I did not make excuses for my sin. I wanted to know how to stop sinning and now I can tell you. It is only by the power of God that one can resist temptation. We must be found abiding in Christ and He in us. If we are not connected to Christ, we cannot resist the smallest sin. Do you agree? If so, then why do we sin? Because Christ is not in us. And if Christ is not in us, then we do not possess eternal life. This is not hard to follow cp. Stay with me. If we have Christ, we have life. If we do not have Christ, we do not have life. It is through the Holy Spirit that Christ lives in us. Do you agree? Then if we do not have His Spirit, we do not have life. Do you agree?

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Sanctification is not a perfect growth without ever a stuble along the way. Ultimately God's people will reach what He has called them to be and will not sin even by a single thought.

Are you speaking about the thief on the cross and the Christian that dies today? Is that to be their experience also?
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Richard Myers

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #259 on: September 19, 2012, 11:53:09 AM »
To say that God keeps people alive until they have repented and then lays them to rest before they can sin again is legalism. It is not victory over sin. That is like saying a person has a problem with pornography, for instance. He repents and before he can turn on the computer again God takes his life away to save him. That is a legalistic technicality.

You misunderstand what true repentance is, cp. When one is in a converted state, they have truly repented. God looks upon the heart. No one is going to be laid in the grave to save their soul if they have not true repentance. You seem to be unfamiliar with the reality that God does in fact lay some in the grave to save their souls. You are arguing with Scripture, not with me. But, again, God only does this for those who hearts are pure and holy, those who are in a converted state, not those who profess to be Christians, or those who have fallen and only profess repentance. I hope this helps to clarify what I have stated and that it is Biblical, not legalism.

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God is interested in the heart and the trend of the life. Of course the trend of the life will not be good enough when there is no longer One to mediate on behalf of the people.
God looks upon the heart. Amen. And when the heart is defiled by sin, you would give the person life. Let me ask another question that may help you, cp.  Because the trend of the life has been good, is that a guarantee that the person will repent if he sins? And if it is not, then why do you give the person eternal life when he sins? At what point will you agree that he does not have life?

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We are seen as promoting cheap grace.
  Cheap grace is saying that grace covers a known sin. That is precisely why I am spending time on this. Cheap grace says that when I do that which I know is wrong that grace covers my sin. That I am in a saved condition when I sin. I do not believe in grace covering a known sin. That is what you and Carla have said. That when one sins, they do not lose their justification. That is what I understand cheap grace to be.

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What is MY concern?  That a false theology breaks the back of those growing in Christ because they are in a saving relationship one day and lost the next because they have not yet attained what God will bring them to, that is, if they do not become discouraged and throw in the towel. We are not to toy with sin. Neither ought we break the back of someone who is struggling in their walk with God and quench their hope.

That is a good  motive for wanting to teach the truth. That does not make your understanding correct. Why would someone be discouraged by knowing that they need Jesus at all times to be saved? Jesus holds the power and Jesus stands at the door knocking. Why not let Him in? It is Christ that has the power. This is precisely why this discussion is so important. You want to discourage someone, let them believe they are saved when they are not. Leave them in a Romans seven experience. Let continue saying "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I, For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do." This is discouraging when one finds out that sin brings condemnation. One sin brings condemnation. Condemnation is death which is the opposite of life. Those who are under condemnation do not have eternal life. Listen to Paul "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."   When I sin, I am not walking after the Spirit, but after flesh. When the man who has been walking in the Spirit takes his eyes off of Christ and then views pornography, or fornicates, the trend of his life may be good, but when he walks in the flesh it is because the Holy Spirit no longer indwells his heart. He is now serving Satan and is under condemnation. He is no longer in a converted state.

By telling someone that they do not have life when they sin, does not quench their hope. It was a false hope they had to believe that they had life when walking in the flesh. Christ came to give life, we can have faith that Jesus will save us if we will study for ourselves. If we will give our hearts to Him fully. He has promised us this experience. He has promised us that He will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we can bear. But, if one does not see it necessary to cease from sin, then why worry about this promise that is broken. If is very sad to see people struggling with sin when Jesus says that He will keep us from sin. Hopelessness comes from not understanding that the power is in Christ, not in us. Until we see our need of Jesus continually, we shall continue to sin. That is what is hopeless. We do not want to leave those we love in that deception. Rather that what I say, here is what the Bible says "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:8,9. It is very narrow, but then we are told that the road to heaven is narrow and few will enter therein.

Just one quick comment that will encourage all as they seek to please God. When we understand that God sent His Son to rescue us, will better appreciate that it was an infinite price that was paid that we might have a period of probation to learn of the plan of salvation, and to be transformed by it. Jesus does not come today, that all who can be saved, will be saved. This not a message of discouragement, but one of great hope. God is on our side and working with us while we were yet sinners. Amen!!

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It is also a concern to me when we think we read the hearts and Chrisitian experience of our brethren. Is that not sin ?

Amen! That is sin and it reveals a separation from Christ. It is not the Spirit of Jesus that would cause one to believe he can know the heart of another. We may know that someone is outside of Christ when they manifest the works of the flesh, but that does not mean they will not repent tomorrow. We cannot know the motive nor where the heart is. It may be on the verge of true repentance.

cp, I have tried to address each point you have made. It would be a blessing for all if you would try to do the same. Look back over my posts and those of others and try to answer some of the questions asked of you. I am sure that we can come into unity, for I know that you love God and want to please Him.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.