Romans 7 and 8

[Richard Myers]

Much can be learned by understanding what Scripture is particularly offense to Satan. When we see how he attempts to twist the truth, it helps us to better understand how important certain verses are. Case in point. Having attended many churches prior to becoming a Seventh-day Adventist, I became familiar with a certain verse that is very popular throughout the fallen Protestant churches. It is Romans 8:1. Now, many in our church know this verse as it has  been modified because they have relied upon a Babylonian "bible", the NIV. It is not without purpose that the verse was maligned. Here is one of the favorite sayings in the evangelical churches today. "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

To the diligent Bible student, it is readily seen that this is being used as a tool to further support the evangelical gospel which is no gospel at all. There are two great errors in the churches. First, that obedience to the law of God can save a man and second, that man has been released from obedience to the law. Both teachings are leading men to perdition. The second lie, that God does not require obedience is the liberal mantra known as the evangelical gospel.  It teaches that a man is saved while sinning. There are many variations to this lie, but the essence is that grace covers sin that is unconfessed and unforsaken. Romans 8:1 in the NIV is heard often to justify the sinner while sinning. There is no condemnation because I have confessed not my sins, but Christ. He is my Saviour and therefore His blood covers my sins.

The truth of the matter is made known when reading Romans 8:1 in the King James Version. "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."[/b] This reveals who it is that is in Christ Jesus, those who are walking after His Spirit, not after the flesh.

Some may say that is the case in some churches, but not our denomination. If that was so I would not have spent the last ten years of my life in this ministry to our church. I would have been working only in the world to bring to them the knowledge of the love of God. But, until our church is grounded on the gospel truth, it is not ready to receive the multitudes waiting to come in.

This topic on Romans seven and eight was begun ten years ago. Shortly after we started it there was a brother who took exception with what had been presented. He had been deceived by the evangelical gospel in our church. This is seen in his first post almost ten years ago.

I want to comment on Romans 8:1. I think KJV translate it wrong, it should have been :” There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are “in Christ Jesus.” (see other translation)
By adding “who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit” a contradiction will arise, which is that our walking after the Spirit which saved us, our life style which saved us. IOW we are saved by our works.

Compare with this! Now we know that what things so ever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God (Why? Because all are under sin, no one is righteous…...there is none that doeth good, no, not one - Romans 3:9-12). There fore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight; for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested………even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe; for there is no difference; For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God; being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is “in Christ Jesus.” (Romans 3:19-24).

“In Christ” a believer have his freedom, freedom of sin and it condemnations. In Christ a believer have his justification and redemption, not in ‘walking after the Spirit.”

This is an example of what many in our church believe. It is the evangelical gospel that gives license to sin. It is preached from our pulpits and believed by both ministers and church members. When this is understood to be all that a man can hope for, he will never have peace, for he will always have guilt. It is only a new heart that can cleanse us of our sin.

[colporteur]

It is amazing that they will not see that they are giving license to walk after the flesh. If you ask them if that is what they are doing they would deny it.

It is interesting that some of the Baptists churches are ahead of our church when it comes to how they relate to Bible translations.

[Richard Myers]

If Christians understood that good fruit can only come from a good tree and bad fruit can only come from a bad tree, they would not be so deceived. Yet, these words from Jesus are not taken to heart. Bad fruit continues to come from good trees in the gospel being taught throughout Christendom. 

[Glen]

If Christians understood that good fruit can only come from a good tree and bad fruit can only come from a bad tree, they would not be so deceived. Yet, these words from Jesus are not taken to heart. Bad fruit continues to come from good trees in the gospel being taught throughout Christendom.

I'm sorry that I don't have time right now to read all eleven pages this morning. Hopefully I'm not repeating too much of what has already been covered on this thread.

Many, if not most, SDA's I've spoken with in Class on Sabbath mornings, declare outright or insinuate in every "subtle" way imaginable,  that Christ had a distinct advantage over every man, woman, and child; because, Jesus is the Son of God.

What must be understood and internalized through the Holy Spirit, is that as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name... John 1:12 All might well contemplate the context of the fact that ...His name shall be in their foreheads. Revelation 22:4; ; AND, ...His Father's name written in their foreheads. Revelation 14:1;AND, the seal of God in their foreheads. Revelation 9:4

We must finally comprehend that Christ came to this world "in the flesh"; ...what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 THAT the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:3, 4; Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren... Hebrews 2:17 

"in all things...made like unto his brethren", does not mean unlike his brethren. A good question to pose, here, is: "When was Christ...made him to be sin for us... 2 Corinthians 5:21? Was it not when he was born as a babe? Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Psalm 51:5

...many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. (see also Col. 1:27) This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds. 2 John 1:7, 9-11

Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, IN the Believer; and, with Jesus dwelling in the Christian through the...faith of Jesus (Rev. 14:12), Christ is not a ...minister of sin (Gal. 2:17)! It is thus that the Christian, as born again...cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9)

"The doctrine of Christ" is more than the fact that we have a Saviour by that name. The purpose of the Godhead is that Jesus is to be an indwelling Saviour. "Christ" also means, anointed... picked out; chosen; elected, by God. (see 1 Peter 2:9)...fulfil the word of God; 26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you,YOUR ONLY hope of glory: (Col. 1:26, 27)

[Richard Myers]

Amen, Brother Glen.    You might look at this week's Sabbath School lesson and add a thought there.

Jesus says    "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.  I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.  If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.  If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you."  John 15:4-7. God is not a liar. This is a conditional promise that we be fully surrendered to Him. And if we are not, we are none of His.  "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Romans 8:8,9. 

We have a topic on Abide in Me

[Richard Myers]

I continue to study the Book of Romans, especially in the light of chapters seven and eight.

Most who believe Romans seven is Paul's Christian experience make excuses for sin. And, a few others who think that we ought not sin, have an interesting view. They believe it is Paul talking about the battle he faces after conversion. I have given these individuals credit for being right about their gospel message because they say that God gives power to obey. I cannot speak for all who think this way, but some I have found appear to say one thing, yet do another.  They do not appear to have gotten the victory over sin. I am not taking about an occasional sin, but they appear to treat sin lightly.  Their emphasis is on a justification that treats sanctification matter of factly.  They abhor Phariseeism and therefore have no desire to discuss the perfection of Christian character.  This attitude leads me to believe that they do not understand the gospel message and that their interpretation of Romans seven is based upon their own experience. This is always a very sad situation.

In the past, I have tried to give the benefit of doubt to the possibility that they could be right, but more and more I am seeing that it cannot be.  In Romans 7:18,  when Paul says "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not," it is not true of his experience as a converted Christian. After his conversion, Paul understood how to perform that which is good. "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me."  Philippians 4:13. In verse 14, when Paul said "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin,"  he could not have been speaking of the converted Paul. No, he understood that to be carnally minded would reveal he was separated from God. "For to be carnally minded is death."  Romans 8:6. 

If we allowed these verses in Roman seven to be Paul speaking of his post conversion experience, we could say that some take their eyes off of Jesus and then they sin. How very true. I recall many times having sinned after being truly converted. We do not believe in once saved always saved, nor do we believe that once one is converted that the battle ceases. No, it continues. Let us look at a post conversion experience and see how it squares with Romans 7.

Like Moses when he struck the Rock, one sins after being converted.  Can you imagine Moses saying "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not." or how about this; "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"  Romans 7: 7:18, 24.  No, Moses instead fell on his face and repented in great sorrow. He knew who would deliver him and he knew how to keep from sinning.

Many accept Romans 7 as the Christian experience because it is their experience after baptism. They have never learned how to obey. Romans 8 is the text book along with the lessons Jesus gave while walking in our flesh upon this earth.  "And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness." Romans 8:10. Listen to Paul:  "if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you." Romans 8:9. Does the Spirit of God dwell in you? If so, you will not sin. Paul knew, he did not have to ask, he understood.

[Dorine]

I have never told you that I have appreciated your comments on Rom. 7 & 8 and have come to the conclusion some time ago that you are absolutely correct. I have always wondered about these chapters and have heard conflicting ideas. Most of the time they are avoided. It is so clear to me now. Thank you for your repetition on this subject.

[Richard Myers]

Thank you for your comments, Dorine.  It is important because Romans 7 has been a stumbling block of so many in the Evangelical churches and even in our own.  So many point to it as an excuse for sin.  And, Romans eight is just plain ignored as being a revelation of what the Christian life is to be. How many times do we hear that if we do not have His Spirit, we are none of His?  I don't ever recall hearing it. Yet so many who reject this truth love to preach "love, love, love."  Such a contradiction. If we have His Spirit, then we have His love. If we do not have His Spirit, we do not have His love.  We need so much to be reconciled to God every moment of every day, if there is to be any good thing in us.

[billy]

"Many, if not most, SDA's I've spoken with in Class on Sabbath mornings, declare outright or insinuate in every "subtle" way imaginable,  that Christ had a distinct advantage over every man, woman, and child; because, Jesus is the Son of God."

I am just so glad that Christ had an advantage over me. Without that advantage He would be like me and sin. The contest is not that I be just like Christ but to accept what was done for me. Adam had an advantage over me. Does anyone deny that? I doubt it. Christ came as the second Adam. It is also true that Christ did come with a distinct disadvantage to Adam in that the world that Adam was created in was perfect, 4000 years after that the world was far from perfect.

If we are in the surf and about to drown, do we ask the board rider to get of his surf board to save us because he has an advantage? We gladly get on board and are happy to be saved because of the advantage that the board rider has.

Much the same with Christ; All our illustrations are also less than perfect. The point I am trying to make is that it does not matter that Christ has an advantage over me; Adam did too.

[Mimi]

If that is the case, what do we do with this?

For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Hebrews 2:16

But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life.

[colporteur]

billy;

 Do you believe God's faithful, saved people will be sinning when He comes again ? Do we truly believe Phil. 4:13 ? I think this is really the bottom line here.

Once again you speak about  "many" and "most" people in Sabbath school. Most people who are now on the church books will be lost. I do not care to use them as criteria for what is right but you seem to think that some kind of evidence for truth.

Jesus had what some would call advantages. Why is it though that those who always  toss that out there never comment on the distinct disadvantages Jesus had ? Because they wish to make excuses for sin. Jesus was tempted far above and beyond what any other human has and can be tempted. He was not only tempted to use divine power(which was at His finger tips) to prove who He was but He could not make even the smallest mistake. However, we have had the latitude to make many grevious mistakes, repent, and be saved. I think it would be good to talk about all the disadvantages Jesus had. That never gets brought up by the left in the church.

[Richard Myers]

Billie, we have topics on the Nature of Christ and the Nature of Man, please let's stay with Romans 7 and 8 here.  If you have any questions on what has been presented on a particular verse, please ask. It is a good opportunity to show your understanding of the Bible.  You must believe Paul was describing your experience when he was writing Romans seven. You cannot help but sin. You do that which you do not want to do and you don't do that which you ought to do. Is that you translation of the chapter? If so, please share with us how you interpret the first half of Romans 8.

[Glen]

"Many, if not most, SDA's I've spoken with in Class on Sabbath mornings, declare outright or insinuate in every "subtle" way imaginable,  that Christ had a distinct advantage over every man, woman, and child; because, Jesus is the Son of God."

I am just so glad that Christ had an advantage over me. Without that advantage He would be like me and sin. The contest is not that I be just like Christ but to accept what was done for me. Adam had an advantage over me. Does anyone deny that? I doubt it. Christ came as the second Adam. It is also true that Christ did come with a distinct disadvantage to Adam in that the world that Adam was created in was perfect, 4000 years after that the world was far from perfect.

If we are in the surf and about to drown, do we ask the board rider to get of his surf board to save us because he has an advantage? We gladly get on board and are happy to be saved because of the advantage that the board rider has.

Much the same with Christ; All our illustrations are also less than perfect. The point I am trying to make is that it does not matter that Christ has an advantage over me; Adam did too.

As I said before, so I'll say again: Many, if not most, SDA's I've spoken with in Class on Sabbath mornings, declare outright or insinuate in every "subtle" way imaginable,  that Christ had a distinct advantage over every man, woman, and child; because, Jesus is the Son of God.

What must be understood and internalized through the Holy Spirit, is that as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name... John 1:12 All might well contemplate the context of the fact that ...His name shall be in their foreheads. Revelation 22:4[/color]; AND, ...His Father's name written in their foreheads. Revelation 14:1;AND, the seal of God in their foreheads. Revelation 9:4

We must finally comprehend that Christ came to this world "in the flesh";[/color] ...what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 THAT the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:3, 4; Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren... Hebrews 2:17 

The "advantage" in the likeness of sinful flesh that Christ manifested here on earth was distinctly and exclusively the presence of His Father's Spirit within Him, just as it will manifest in the true Believer. "Christ in you" as mentioned clearly and succinctly in Colossians 1:27 is truly a mystery, and will remain so to those who are not Spiritual, except they repent and accept God's WORD, Jesus Christ to indwell them.

...as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name John 1:12

Like it or not...

[Glen]

Like it our not...

Like it or not...but only IF YOU WANT, and receive, believing and living by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God; THEN, you will never lack any good thing from the hand of God. -You certainly will not continue in sin that leads only to death everlasting.

The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. Psalm 23:1

[Richard Myers]

Many point to the law of God in Romans seven as what converted Saul. The law does not convert, it convicts of sin. It is the schoolmaster that leads the sinner to Christ. Paul wrote of his experience in being convinced of sin by the commandment, but not of conversion by it.

It is grace that converts. To Paul the cross was the one object of supreme interest. Ever since he had been arrested in his career of persecution against the followers of the crucified Nazarene he had never ceased to glory in the cross. At that time there had been given him a revelation of the infinite love of God, as revealed in the death of Christ; and a marvelous transformation had been wrought in his life, bringing all his plans and purposes into harmony with heaven. From that hour he had been a new man in Christ. He knew by personal experience that when a sinner once beholds the love of the Father, as seen in the sacrifice of His Son, and yields to the divine influence, a change of heart takes place, and henceforth Christ is all and in all.

At the time of his conversion, Paul was inspired with a longing desire to help his fellow men to behold Jesus of Nazareth as the Son of the living God, mighty to transform and to save. Henceforth his life was wholly devoted to an effort to portray the love and power of the Crucified One.

When one sees that he is undone and dead in trespasses and sins, it is then that he seeks out a physician to heal his sin sick soul. In this sense the law points to Christ and His great love, grace, as the only source of help to the sinner.

[Glen]

....As received in Christ... ("the law of ten commandments") works in us the purity of character that will bring joy to us through eternal ages....
Selected Messages Book 1, Page 235.01

It is essential to live by every word of God, else our old nature will constantly reassert itself. It is the Holy Spirit, the redeeming grace of truth in the soul, that makes the followers of Christ one with one another, and one with God. Advent Review and Sabbath Herald 10-12-97.07

The Holy Spirit is the breath of spiritual life in the soul. The impartation of the Spirit is the impartation of the life of Christ. It imbues the receiver with the attributes of Christ. Only those who are thus taught of God, those who possess the inward working of the Spirit, and in whose life the Christ-life is manifested, are to stand as representative men, to minister in behalf of the church. The Desire of Ages 805.03
....God showed his love for us by adopting our nature, in the person of his Son. God himself inhabited humanity, making us partakers of the divine nature, that by the incarnation and death of his only begotten Son, our adoption as heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ might be fully accomplished....The Youth’s Instructor December 16, 1897 paragraph 3

....In His person humanity, inhabited by divinity, was represented to the world.... God's Amazing Grace 14.03 
CHRIST'S OVERCOMING AND OBEDIENCE IS THAT OF A TRUE HUMAN BEING. Our High Calling 48.2

Christ's life represents a perfect manhood. Just that which you may be, He was in human nature. (Letter 106, 1896) S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 5 1124..02

The only condition upon which the freedom of man is possible is that of becoming one with Christ. "The truth shall make you free;" and Christ is the truth. Sin can triumph only by enfeebling the mind, and destroying the liberty of the soul. Subjection to God is restoration to one's self,--to the true glory and dignity of man. The Desire of Ages 466.05

When the law of God is accepted by the penitent sinner as the WAY of life abundant, what was before, for the impenitent sinner "the law of sin and death" becomes, to that penitent sinner, through the Holy Spirit, "the law of life" IN Christ. The "grace" of Christ (Truth) in the soul of the penitent IS the life of Christ, the embodiment of the Law, which wrought out in the life, portrays the character of God, considered by God as the righteousness of God (see 2 Corinthians 5:21) The crucifixion  of Christ, and the baptism in likeness to the death of Christ, followed by faith into resurrection into the likeness of Christ's resurrection, is subsequently followed by newness of life. Thus obedience becomes "second nature", lived by the penitent in the human nature that has been redeemed by Christ, as partaker of the divine nature. Christ thus lives in the penitent; not the penitent (Christ lives, not I). (....the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God.... Galatians 2:20) The truly penitent is dependant upon the faith of Jesus, alone, and may speak and act as if his faith were invincible, for, " It is He, not me, that lives".

....By your words and your works show that your faith is invincible.... Mind, Character, and Personality Volume 2, Page 471.03

What speech is to thought, so is Christ to the invisible Father. He is the manifestation of the Father, and is called the Word of God. God sent His Son into the world, His divinity clothed with humanity, that man might bear the image of the invisible God. He made known in His words, His character, His power and majesty, the nature and attributes of God. Divinity flashed through humanity in softening, subduing light. He was the embodiment of the law of God, which is the transcript of His character (Manuscript 77, 1899).
As Christ represented the Father, so we are to represent Christ to the world. We cannot transfer our obligation to others. God desires to make known to you what is the richness of his glory, that you may preach the mystery of salvation to those around you,—Christ in you the hope of glory.

We know that Christ did not sin because no sin was in Him; so:

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 1 John 5:18

This is the privilege of the truly penitent who sees God by faith, and truly lives. We need no longer "see through a glass, darkly."

....that which is perfect is come....that which is in part shall be done away. 1 Corinthians 13:10

....take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 2 Peter 1:19

Has the Day Star risen in our hearts? Then we will speak and move in unison, clearly portraying to a dying world a risen, indwelling Savior.

We are to be consecrated channels, through which the heavenly life is to flow to others. The Holy Spirit is to animate and pervade the whole church....Those who have been buried with Christ in baptism are to rise to newness of life, giving a living representation of the life of Christ.....Heaven’s perfection is to be your power.
Testimony Treasures Volume 3, Page 289.02

....Man is to remember that God has the ownership of all, and that his pursuits are invested with a sacredness that they did not possess before he enlisted in the army of the Lord. Every action is to be a consecrated action, for it occupies God's entrusted talent of time. Holiness unto the Lord is inscribed on all the actions of such a one, because his whole being is brought under subjection to God. S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 6 1087.06

[Richard Myers]

Amen, Glen.  The law does not convert, but when a person is converted the law of God is written upon the heart. It is the fulfillment of the everlasting covenant.

[Glen]

....the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance Romans 2:4

....Obedience to the commandments of God is the price of eternal life.  Manuscript 45, July 26, 1900, “What Is the Chaff to Wheat?” The Upward Look 221.02

....This is the true interpretation of genuine conversion. The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.... Manuscript 45, July 26, 1900, “What Is the Chaff to Wheat?” The Upward Look 221.03

God's righteousness (His Law of Love; His goodness), embodied in Christ as manifested by His life on earth, then replicated (by God's grace, the life of Christ imparted as the presence of the Holy Spirit, manifested as God's Law of Love written upon the heart), in, by, and through the penitent sinner, meets other  impenitent sinners "where they are", convicting them of sin, and prompting them to recognize their need of a power outside of themselves to truly love. This "goodness of God" is ever present, first convicting, then wooing the Impenitent, and is the Way of Life of the Penitent. God's Love (Law) is needed at every step, as His word IS Law.

[colporteur]

Quick question. If Romans 7 is preconversion how could Paul delight in the law of God ? It seems like this is mid converson.

[Richard Myers]

I have never heard the term, mid-conversion. Can you explain what it means? Is the person converted or not?