Author Topic: The Desire of Ages--42--Tradition  (Read 13734 times)

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R Myers

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The Desire of Ages--42--Tradition
« on: October 18, 2000, 06:52:00 AM »
Tradition


     The scribes and Pharisees, expecting to see Jesus at the Passover, had laid a trap for Him. But Jesus, knowing their purpose, had absented Himself from this gathering. "Then came together unto Him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes." As He did not go to them, they came to Him. For a time it had seemed that the people of Galilee would receive Jesus as the Messiah, and that the power of the hierarchy in that region would be broken. The mission of the twelve, indicating the extension of Christ's work, and bringing the disciples more directly into conflict with the rabbis, had excited anew the jealousy of the leaders at Jerusalem. The spies they sent to Capernaum in the early part of His ministry, who had tried to fix on Him the charge of Sabbathbreaking, had been put to confusion; but the rabbis were bent on carrying out their purpose. Now another deputation was sent to watch His movements, and find some accusation against Him. 
     As before, the ground of complaint was His disregard of the traditional precepts that encumbered the law of God. These were professedly designed to guard the observance of the law, but they were regarded as more sacred than the law itself. When they came in collision with the commandments given from Sinai, preference was given to the rabbinical precepts.
     Among the observances most strenuously enforced was that of ceremonial purification. A neglect of the forms to be observed before eating was accounted a heinous sin, to be punished both in this world and in the next; and it was regarded as a virtue to destroy the transgressor. 
     The rules in regard to purification were numberless. The period of a lifetime was scarcely sufficient for one to learn them all. The life of those who tried to observe the rabbinical requirements was one long struggle against ceremonial defilement, an endless round of washings and purifications. While the people were occupied with trifling distinctions, and observances which God had not required, their attention was turned away from the great principles of His law.
     Christ and His disciples did not observe these ceremonial washings, and the spies made this neglect the ground of their accusation. They did not, however, make a direct attack on Christ, but came to Him with criticism of His disciples. In the presence of the multitude they said, "Why do Thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread." 
     Whenever the message of truth comes home to souls with special power, Satan stirs up his agents to start a dispute over some minor question. Thus he seeks to attract attention from the real issue. Whenever a good work is begun, there are cavilers ready to enter into dispute over forms or technicalities, to draw minds away from the living realities. When it appears that God is about to work in a special manner for His people, let them not be enticed into a controversy that will work only ruin of souls. The questions that most concern us are, Do I believe with saving faith on the Son of God? Is my life in harmony with the divine law? "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life." "And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments." John 3:36; 1 John 2:3. 
     Jesus made no attempt to defend Himself or His disciples. He made no reference to the charges against Him, but proceeded to show the spirit that actuated these sticklers for human rites. He gave them an example of what they were repeatedly doing, and had done just before coming in search of Him. "Full well ye reject the commandment of God," He said, "that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honor thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: but ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. And ye suffer him no more to do aught for his father or his mother." They set aside the fifth commandment as of no consequence, but were very exact in carrying out the traditions of the elders. They taught the people that the devotion of their property to the temple was a duty more sacred than even the support of their parents; and that, however great the necessity, it was sacrilege to impart to father or mother any part of what had been thus consecrated. An undutiful child had only to pronounce the word "Corban" over his property, thus devoting it to God, and he could retain it for his own use during his lifetime, and after his death it was to be appropriated to the temple service. Thus he was at liberty, both in life and in death, to dishonor and defraud his parents, under cover of a pretended devotion to God. 
     Never, by word or deed, did Jesus lessen man's obligation to present gifts and offerings to God. It was Christ who gave all the directions of the law in regard to tithes and offerings. When on earth He commended the poor woman who gave her all to the temple treasury. But the apparent zeal for God on the part of the priests and rabbis was a pretense to cover their desire for self-aggrandizement. The people were deceived by them. They were bearing heavy burdens which God had not imposed. Even the disciples of Christ were not wholly free from the yoke that had been bound upon them by inherited prejudice and rabbinical authority. Now, by revealing the true spirit of the rabbis, Jesus sought to free from the bondage of tradition all who were really desirous of serving God. 
     "Ye hypocrites," He said, addressing the wily spies, "well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto Me with their mouth, and honoreth Me with their lips; but their heart is far from Me. But in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." The words of Christ were an arraignment of the whole system of Pharisaism. He declared that by placing their requirements above the divine precepts the rabbis were setting themselves above God. 
     The deputies from Jerusalem were filled with rage. They could not accuse Christ as a violator of the law given from Sinai, for He spoke as its defender against their traditions. The great precepts of the law, which He had presented, appeared in striking contrast to the petty rules that men had devised. 
     To the multitude, and afterward more fully to His disciples, Jesus explained that defilement comes not from without, but from within. Purity and impurity pertain to the soul. It is the evil deed, the evil word, the evil thought, the transgression of the law of God, not the neglect of external, man-made ceremonies, that defiles a man.
     The disciples noted the rage of the spies as their false teaching was exposed. They saw the angry looks, and heard the half-muttered words of dissatisfaction and revenge. Forgetting how often Christ had given evidence that He read the heart as an open book, they told Him of the effect of His words. Hoping that He might conciliate the enraged officials, they said to Jesus, "Knowest Thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?" 
     He answered, "Every plant, which My heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." The customs and traditions so highly valued by the rabbis were of this world, not from heaven. However great their authority with the people, they could not endure the testing of God. Every human invention that has been substituted for the commandments of God will be found worthless in that day when "God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." Ecclesiastes 12:14.
     The substitution of the precepts of men for the commandments of God has not ceased. Even among Christians are found institutions and usages that have no better foundation than the traditions of the fathers. Such institutions, resting upon mere human authority, have supplanted those of divine appointment. Men cling to their traditions, and revere their customs, and cherish hatred against those who seek to show them their error. In this day, when we are bidden to call attention to the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, we see the same enmity as was manifested in the days of Christ. Of the remnant people of God it is written, "The dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Revelation 12:17. 
     But "every plant, which My heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." In place of the authority of the so-called fathers of the church, God bids us accept the word of the eternal Father, the Lord of heaven and earth. Here alone is truth unmixed with error. David said, "I have more understanding than all my teachers: for Thy testimonies are my meditation. I understand more than the ancients, because I keep Thy precepts." Psalm 119:99, 100. Let all who accept human authority, the customs of the church, or the traditions of the fathers, take heed to the warning conveyed in the words of Christ, "In vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." 


_________________________________________________ ___________________________

"But 'every plant, which My heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.' In place of the authority of the so-called fathers of the church, God bids us accept the word of the eternal Father, the Lord of heaven and earth. Here alone is truth unmixed with error. David said, 'I have more understanding than all my teachers: for Thy testimonies are my meditation. I understand more than the ancients, because I keep Thy precepts.' Ps. 119:99, 100. Let all who accept human authority, the customs of the church, or the traditions of the fathers, take heed to the warning conveyed in the words of Christ, 'In vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.'"

Kellee

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« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2000, 02:19:00 AM »

(1) "And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments."

This struck me anew: the commandments aren't ultimately designed as laws for us to obey. But before you begin to stone me for heresy, let me explain what I mean. Of course we obey the commandments! We will naturally obey them as God changes us. Because the commandments are simply a reflection of God's character, and as He restores us to the image of Himself, we will naturally keep the commandments because they will become our own nature.

More than just a set of laws for the sake of making laws, though, I think the commandments are more like a mirror. In the above statement, we see that it is by keeping His commandments that we know that we know Jesus. Keeping His commandments doesn't come in place of knowing Jesus, it comes as a result of knowing Jesus. The law was given so we could see what God is like and then see how horribly we were falling short of the ideal! But God has never asked us to come to the commandments to find salvation or perfection. He asks us to come to Him to find salvation and perfection. He will do His good work in His own time.

When we come and surrender to Him, He is the one who changes us. Like I've said before, I don't care what He's doing or how fast He's doing it, I know that it will be fine craftsmanship when He's through!  ;D And however long it takes, it's certainly worth waiting for. In the meantime, as I spend time with God and get to know Him, I can't help but love Him - He's so irresistible! And when I love Him, I can't help but completely trust Him. In completely trusting Him, He's free to do whatever He will with my life, and hopefully for me that means changing me to the point where I keep all the commandments. That's how good I want to be!

If I focus on the commandments, I've gone all wrong. But I know that I know God when I want to keep the commandments. I recognize His picture in them, and that's exactly what I want to be like! And He promises that's exactly what I'm gonna get to be like! But He's the one who changes me. It's just my privilege to know Him.


Richard Myers

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« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2000, 06:28:00 AM »
Sister Kellee, we surely do agree on an important point. When we love God, when we really know Him and give ourselves to Him, we will keep the commandments.  Now we need to reason a little further, for the inverse is true. If we do not keep the commandments it is because we do not love God enough. Also, your attitude towards not being discouraged because you do not keep the commandments is good. If you can understand that you do not love God with all the heart then you will continue to strive to know God and to love Him. He will keep His promise to give you a new heart that will love Him fully.

We just need to keep this in balance. There are many who go off in either direction. They believe they are "saved" prior to a whole surrender, or they get discouraged when they find out they fall short. God will give us grace to overcome sin, to keep His commandments!
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Kellee

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« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2000, 03:43:00 AM »
Richard,

If you mean to ask am I saved before I am fully keeping all the commandments? Absolutely. This may be a point we agree on.

Trust in God is what saves me in my relationship with Him. If I am fully open to Him, He can teach me anything and therefore, I am savable.

However, the process of coming to the point where the commandments are all written on my heart may be a long process. But that is God's work - not mine. If I truly trust in Him, I am saved from that moment on. That trust will then lead to God being able to work in my life and change me completely.


Richard Myers

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« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2000, 07:14:00 AM »
Sister Kellee, the "new birth" is a  transformation of nature.  The butterfly that came from a caterpillar is not the same. Self is dead when we surrender to Jesus. You and I cannot change ourselves. The struggle you are talking about, the change that needs to be done, cannot be done by us.  When we come to Jesus just as we are and make a WHOLE surrender to Him it is Jesus that lives, not I.

The discussion you and I are having is at the heart of the division in the church. There are many as yourself who do not believe that Jesus gives power to overcome all known sin at conversion. There are others who actually change the definition of sin, so as to be able to "keep" the commandments of God (Pharisees).

We have much in common and as we go forward we shall see this power and need of it spoken of over and over. It is a blessing in that you acknowledge Ellen White as a prophet and value her writings. It will help to bring us into unity on this most important doctrine upon which rests the entire plan of salvation. A misunderstanding here helps to perpetuate the Laodicean condition in the church.  Many believe as you do and therefore it is easy for them to believe they are rich and increased with goods, but to not realize they are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked. They believe they are in a "saved" condition prior to giving their whole heart to Christ. Jesus stands at the door of the heart in this situation asking to come in.

We are not justified in our sins. We must confess and forsake them. This we shall do when Jesus has the heart. It is the power of Christ revealed in the life. It is Christ that gives repentance and power to overcome sin. If we are sinning, then He is not in the heart. No need to be discouraged for the solution is available. We must come to Jesus just as we are and believe in His power and in His love.

When we keep the commandments we are really loving God and our neighbor and this is the requirement for eternal life. "If you love me keep my commandments."   "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." 1 John 5:3. "Ye shall diligently keep the commandments of the LORD your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes, which he hath commanded thee." Deuteronomy 6:17.

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." Ecclesiastes 12:13. If you find fault with the old testament as do many in the "evangelical" churches, then listen to the Words of Jesus. "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."  Matthew 9:17.

And the inspired New Testament Words of John "And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight." 1 John 3:22. Lest any would dare suggest that these verses are teaching salvation by works, they are not. They merely demonstrate a real belief in Christ. Those that really love Jesus with the whole heart will THEN have power to obey the commandments. This is what it means to love our neighbor as ourselves. Those that make excuses for not loving others have no excuse. Jesus is willing and able to give them new hearts filled with His love. There is no excuse for sinning, for breaking the commandments of God.<P>Let us come to Jesus today and by feeding upon Him and by beholding Him we shall be changed into His character. 
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Kellee

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« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2000, 01:10:00 AM »
Richard,

I guess this is one of those times when we'll just have to disagree. You believe what you believe and I believe what I believe.

The only requirement for salvation is an open heart to Jesus, a willingness to listen. In other words, "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever BELIEVES in Him will not perish but have everlasting life."

I think it really is as simple as that. Sometimes it's discouraging to post here. It seems that I want to focus solely on God and you want to keep turning that focus around to the works I'm doing in my life. I'm sorry, but I think that kind of focus gets us into trouble.

You'll have to forgive me in the future if I don't post responses to what you've written - I simply don't have the time or energy to answer everything. And since I don't think it's my job to convince you anyway, I'll leave that up to the Holy Spirit!  ;D

Kellee


Richard Myers

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« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2000, 08:14:00 PM »
Sister Kellee, I appreciate the times you focus on the life of Jesus. It is when you begin to change what is written that I feel compelled to correct what you say. The commentary you make in some cases undoes the plain simple truth. You have a message you are intent on expressing. It goes beyond what is written in The Desire of Ages, or the Bible, or the Spirit of Prophecy. It is not peculiar to you only. There are others that believe as you do. It is not a teaching that you will find here at The Remnant Online.

Other ministries may be allowing you to post these messages without question, but you may not continue to do so here. If you are not prepared to enter into conversation on what you are teaching, then there is no point in continuing to post. We do not offer you a platform to continue teaching error. There is much truth and much beauty in what you say, but it only makes the error harder to discern.

You are welcome to continue posting, but you may not continue to "teach" the doctrines that are contrary to what we believe. A church functions much the same way as we do. All are not allowed to  preach from the pulpit whatever doctrines they believe that are contrary to what the church holds to be truth.

In summary, Seventh-day Adventists believe that in 1844 the investigative judgment began. The record of each person's deeds is compared to the law of God, including their thoughts. In order to be admitted to heaven, there must be a life in harmony with the law of God. The character will not be changed when Jesus comes, it is to be changed now, by the power of God's grace. You have been teaching contrary to this.

When the wicked who have rejected God's grace  pass the close of probation they will meet with the wrath of God unmingled with mercy. This is not redemptive for probation has closed. When the wicked are raised after the thousand years they will each suffer for each sin. God will not cut their punishment short, but each will live and feel pain until they have suffered for each sin. Jesus took this upon Himself prior to His death. We do not want to undo the power of the knowledge of His suffering in our behalf. It is called grace.<P>Please do not provide commentary contrary to these truths. Please do continue to encourage all to behold Jesus and by beholding Him become changed. This is the key to obtaining the  power to love as Jesus loves, for this is what it means to keep the commandments, to be a Christian. We may know we have passed from death to life by the love we have for the brethren. If we have not this love, then we can be certain we need to have Jesus living in our hearts. This He is willing to do if we will just come to Him just as we are.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Kellee

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« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2000, 06:51:00 AM »
Dear Richard,

This will be my last post anywhere on this forum. You have made it clear to me that you don't wish for my company if I do not conform to your beliefs. And since I can't do that, I will have to go.

The ways in which you have responded to some of my posts have always been gracious, indeed. Yet, you twist my words and attribute beliefs to me that I have never said. This makes me sad, and something in my carnal nature wants to rise up and defend myself, but I have no ultimate desire to do that. In truth, it matters little what you think of me. I am not jealous for my reputation. I am jealous for God's reputation. Which brings me to this:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
When the wicked who have rejected God's grace pass the close of probation they will meet with the wrath of God unmingled with mercy. This is not redemptive for probation has closed. When the wicked are raised after the thousand years they will each suffer for each sin. God will not cut their punishment short, but each will live and feel pain until they have suffered for each sin.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am more sorry than I can tell you that this is your picture of God. I sincerely hope it is not shared by everyone on this forum and certainly not by the majority of today's Adventists. If it is, we still have a very long way to go.

I think what you have described above is a Satanic picture of God. If you are correct and this is truly what God is like, then I will be one of those He tortures and executes in the flames because I would rather die than live with a God like that for all eternity.

You're asking people to believe that God will inflict more pain and torture than someone like Hitler ever did. Hitler, who made the Jews to suffer the worst kinds of human torture, whom we despise and discuss the kind of punishment that he certainly deserves. But you ask people to believe that God will visit pain a million times more horrible on Hitler for no redemptive purpose, and then I'm supposed to love God? That is so sad.

It breaks my heart to see what kind of a person you believe God to be. I am sorry for you, but at the same time I'm glad that He's not that kind of person at all. He really isn't the kind of person Satan wants us to believe He is.

It strikes me as ironic that 2000 years ago, the religious people of the day, GOD'S OWN PEOPLE wanted so much for Him to be everything He wasn't.

They wanted Him to take vengeance, they wanted Him to restore order through force, they wanted Him to come as a crushing King and use His terrible power to destroy the opposition.

And you know what? THEY were the opposition. They didn't like the truth about who God was, so they killed Him. God's loving character was OFFENSIVE to them. How sad!

This is even more sad: The truth about who God is is apparently just as offensive today among His own people as it was 2000 years ago.


Richard Myers

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« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2000, 10:50:00 AM »
Dear Sister Kellee, I am sorry that we cannot come into unity on the gospel.  We have allowed much time to try and do so. It has been apparent from the beginning that you believe as you do, but we allowed for an opportunity to come together. The Desire of Ages is in no need of commentary, but is simple to understand if taken in context. You have been reading things into what is being said.

We have not asked you to stop posting what is written, only to stop posting what is not written, what cannot be supported from the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy. I am happy that we have been able to discuss our differences in a Christian manner and that you respect our responsibilities as to what we allow to be "taught" here online. I will keep you in my prayers and I know many others will also. I believe your assessment of this one truth is just right and if you are true to it, we shall meet one another on that sea of glass.  When we come and surrender to Him, He is the one who changes us.

Like I've said before, I don't care what He's doing or how fast He's doing it, I know that it will be fine craftsmanship when He's through!     And however long it takes, it's certainly worth waiting for. In the   meantime, as I spend time with God and get to know Him, I can't help but love Him - He's so irresistible! And when I love Him, I can't help but completely trust Him. In completely trusting Him, He's free to do whatever He will with my life, and hopefully for me that means  changing me to the point where I keep all the commandments.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Richard Myers

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« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2000, 11:31:00 AM »
Brothers and Sisters in the Lord, it is with a heavy heart that I have had to speak such as I have with Sister Kellee. Her teaching is not isolated to herself, but is rampant within the church. It has been gaining popularity for a number of years. The "God does not punish" theme has many variances, but all are rooted in error.

For some who may not understand the issue clearly, I will share a few quotes. It can then be seen that the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy clearly teach of God's retributive justice.

"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb." Rev. 14:9,10.

"Very few realize the sinfulness of sin; they flatter themselves that God is too good to punish the offender. But the cases of Miriam, Aaron, David, and many others show that it is not a safe thing to sin against God in deed, in word, or even in thought. God is a being of infinite love and compassion, but He also declares Himself to be a 'consuming fire, even a jealous God'" RH Aug. 14, 1900.

"The death of Christ was to be the convincing, everlasting argument that the law of God is as unchangeable as His throne. The agonies of the Garden of Gethsemane, the insult, the mockery, and abuse heaped upon God's dear Son, the horrors and ignominy of the crucifixion, furnish sufficient and thrilling demonstration that God's justice, when it punishes, does the work thoroughly. The fact that His own Son, the Surety for man, was not spared, is an argument that will stand to all eternity before saint and sinner, before the universe of God, to testify that He will not excuse the transgressor of His law. Every offense against God's law, however minute, is set down in the reckoning, and when the sword of justice is taken in hand, it will do the work for impenitent transgressors that was done to the divine Sufferer. Justice will strike; for God's hatred of sin is intense and overwhelming." MS 58, 1897.

"His [Christ's] object was to reconcile the prerogatives of Justice and Mercy, and let each stand separate in its dignity, yet united. His mercy was not weakness, but a terrible power to punish sin because it is sin; yet a power to draw to it the love of humanity. Through Christ, Justice is enabled to forgive without sacrificing one jot of its exalted holiness.

Justice and Mercy stood apart, in opposition to each other, separated by a wide gulf. The Lord our Redeemer clothed His divinity with humanity, and wrought out in behalf of man a character that was without spot or blemish. He planted His cross midway between heaven and earth, and made it the object of attraction which reached both ways, drawing both Justice and Mercy across the gulf. Justice moved from its exalted throne, and with all the armies of heaven approached the cross. There it saw One equal with God bearing the penalty for all injustice and sin. With perfect satisfaction Justice bowed in reverence at the cross, saying, It is enough". MS 94, 1899

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Liane H

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« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2000, 04:42:00 PM »
In closing for myself -- is it not a wonder that 2000 years ago they were looking for a king and missed the Carpenter, but today they see the carpenter but are missing the King.

Liane

 

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Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Richard Myers

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« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2000, 05:02:00 PM »
Amen, Sister Liane, amen.  He is indeed the King of Kings and we shall honor and praise Him as unworthy as we are!
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Dugald T Lewis MD

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« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2000, 09:25:00 PM »
Dear Brother Richard,

Like many others, I have watched the dialogue and your patience in dealing with the young lady must be commended. I am shocked to see how readily strange fire is espoused by many so called SDA's today.

If people truly accepted the SOP, we wouldn't have all this confusion. But, we know what will happen and we will not be surprised at the spurious doctrines that will emerge all over the world.  

A hatred for sin is what must be developed in God's people today. This is what sanctification is all about. It makes you wonder what is being preached in the puplits of our churches today.

I have to say that my experience with many British Adventists has been revealing for major theological flaws. Britian is a very secular country and the purity of the gospel appears to have a tough time taking root there. Let us pray that the sister will one day come to the truth as it is in Jesus.

Sincerely
Dugald  



Joan Rügemer

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« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2000, 02:09:00 AM »

.....All which was written in this thread by our Brother R.Meyers has been in sound judgement, and according to the WHOLE bible counsel of revelation about the will and character of God.

R.M. has written in the spirit of loving concern. He has been true to the doctrinal standard as given clearly within the many parables and allergories of Jesus'Christ, teaching on the punishment of the rebellious to the will and character of the Law of God.

The purposes of learning lessons out of the O.T. stories is expedient for shaping a clearer understanding of the Character of God which knows no shadow of turning in change.

The same Spirit, Lord and God of the O.T. is in the fullness of Christ Himself.

The judgements in the books of the Daniel, Ezekial, Isaiah, Revelation, speak firmly about actual punishment for wickedness and unbelief in the sovereign rule of God over one's life.

I have lived three and half years in Britian. I love the people dearly. The children get the usual sweet-gentle-Jesus and God-is-there-as-a-nice-grandpa-giving-presents exposure in 'sundayschool'. But nothing further in direction of brimstone and fire is mentioned. The God of many I met there was extreme generous in overlooking the weaknesses of most all people. This came through in gentle conversations about spiritual things. Because I was not with the SDA's there I can not report how our young people are growing up in knowledge of bible truths or SOP teaching.

All over the land, many many churches have been bought up by commercial intersts. Bingo halls, pub's, resturants or storage houses have been made out of them. The churches in most small towns have on the average 10-12 members showing up for worship services these last few years. This I have seen with my own eyes on a three week trip there last April.

The Charismatic movement has made headway amongst the younger ones who do still seek for spiritual experience in direction of God and worshipping him. Only by preaching and teaching along the same lines as Kellee's emphasis in a part-wise true but onesided way, do the Charismatics groups remain functioning as a body. If they were to put the elements in their teaching of judgement and rejection of those who do not hold to the teaching of Jesus concerning keeping the commandments, they too would loose a lot of followers.

Joan


Richard Myers

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« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2000, 05:00:00 AM »
Thank you, Dr. Dugald and Sister Joan. Ordinarily I would not want the encouragement myself, but in this case there are many reading and some are still deceived as to what is truth. You both have not supported "Richard", but are standing for truth. It is important that all be counted on the Lord's side because we have such a wide division on these subjects. As I have shared, this is not an isolated teaching, but one that has gained wide acceptance.

What is happening in England is happening in Australia and the United States also. From my understanding, Sister Kellee did not learn this (God does not punish) in England, but in the United States. As for the teaching that one may be saved while transgressing the law of God, this is being actively promoted all over the world.

Thank you, heavenly Father for the light given. May we be filled with your Spirit that we might rightly represent your character before a world that is soon to perish. The world will know we are your disciples by the love we have one for another. Give us this love today we pray in the precious name of Jesus, amen.

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Joan Rügemer

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« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2000, 08:04:00 AM »
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. (1 Timothy 4:1 NIV)

For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. (2 Timothy 4:3 NIV)

For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. (2 Corinthians 11:4 NIV)

And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.  It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. (2 Corinthians 11 NIV)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The true Church that perseveres in the faith cannot fall. But 2Thessalonians 2 clearly points to a rebellion\falling away in which much of the visible entity 'called' the church becomes a counterfeit of the truth, by throwing truth to the ground to follow miracles and wonders as a guide to truth.

The fallacy of thinking show itself in such statements like ..."A God of Love won't allow terrible things happen"  The pity of it is those called by His name saying such are deeply deluded. Let's look at the original 'House of God'...the Jewish folk. He has judged those "in his house" 3 times past; by Nebuchadnezzar, the Romans and the Nazis. When the house of God gets into deep trouble it runs the risk of being judged as the Jews were. There is a warning to the church in all of those events.

For if God did not spare the natural branches (the Jews), he will not spare you either (an apostate church). (Romans 11:21 NIV)

One could consider that the transitions of happenings with most of the people 'called out by God' landed often in deep apostasy.
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation. I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm-- neither hot nor cold-- I am about to spit you out of my mouth."

God can and does judge His own people radically. He has done it before, and if our church continues to sin openly, there is every reason to believe He will do it again.

Joan Rügemer


Dugald T Lewis MD

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« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2000, 09:18:00 AM »
AMEN!! Sister Joan.
Sometimes we think that people are not reading the SOP. It appears that many are not even reading the Bible.
Dugald

Laurie Mosher

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« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2000, 03:47:00 PM »
  Unfortunately, the picture that is often presented is that "Anyone who keeps the commandments is a LEGALIST". And when we SDA's present the Sabbath truth, then we are accused of being "Saved by our works."

  It is noteworthy that Ephesians 2:8-9 says " For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
NOT of works lest any man should boast."

 Hurrah! BUT the thought does NOT stop there, does it?

  Let's look at verse 10 "For WE are His WORKmanship, created unto Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

  In other words, our good works are the FRUIT of the Holy Spirit.

 I would ask that NO one think that I am ganging up against Kellee, or those who do NOT agree with my theology. I would humbly ask, however, that "we" read ALL of Holy Writ.

In 1 Peter 1:16 , we read "Because it is written, 'BE YE HOLY, for I am holy.'"

 To me  the implication is clear. Our God is calling for a HOLY people. And when we further compare Scripture we discover that  "God's followers will see His face Rev.22:4). How can practicing sinners be in the very presence of a Holy God?. It is NOT possible!

 Remember Rev 14:1-5 which describes the 144,00 who SDA's believe will be/are the reighteous living when Jesus returns again.  Notice verse 5 "And in their mouth is NO guile: for they are WITHOUT FAULT before the throne of God."  
 My friends this group of people are righteous (meaning they do NOT sin).

 Conversely in 2 Thess.2:8, the Bible tells us that "the WICKED are destroyed by the brightness of His (Jesus) coming. WHy because they are Commandment-Breakers, practicing sinners.

 And ultimately, we are admonished in 1 John 2:1 , John the Revelator says "My little children, these things write I unto you, THAT YE (you) SIN NOT."

1 John3"4 tells us "Whosoever committeth sin transgresses also the law: FOR SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW."

  Who has trouble keeping God's 10 Commandment Law? do you have difficulty with Bowing down before idols, or making graven images? How about swearing, or stealing, or murder, adultery, bearing false witness or coveting? oh yes, the Sabbath--the old Jewish law..surely God doesn't expect  us to refrain from doing our pleasure, after all we can keep any day , right?
 Of course Jesus took us a little further on this, in regards to looking with lust, or hating our brethern.

  My friends, I BELIEVE that God SAYS what He means, and Means WHAT HE SAYS.

 And if we would all follow the counsel God has given us, we would not be in the confusion that is threatening to divide us. SOP "WE HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR FOR THE FUTURE EXCEPT WE FORGET HOW GOD HAS LED US IN THE PAST" still holds true today.

 My God is not going to ask me to do something that He knows is impossible for me to do! When we are born again, we allow God to lead us, and show us where we need to make corrections.

1 John1:9 "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

  If we just follow this verse, we will be sinning and confessing, sinning and confessing, etc. THERE is MORE  to do.

In Proverbs 28:13, we read these words "He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: BUT whoso confesseth AND FORSAKETH them shall have mercy."

 FORSAKE means "GIVE THEM TO JESUS"! Bid your sins "Goodbye".Philippians 4:13 tells us "I can do ALL THINGS through Christ which (WHO) strenthens ME." Ask Jesus for help in overcoming a particular sin. Let your prayer be :
 Father I lay all my plans at your feet. Use me today in YOUR sevice, and make me wholly thine."
 Will Jesus come into Your life and make you new again?

 YES we are saved by grace through FAITH, but look at 1 John5:4 "FOR whosoever is BORN OF GODovercometh the world: AND THIS IS THE VICTORY THAT OVERCOMETH THE WORLD, EVEN OUR FAITH!"

 Belief in Jesus is NOT ENOUGH!. All we have to do is read what James 2:19 says "Thou believest there is one God; thou doest well: THE DEVILS ALSO BELIEVE AND TREMBLE."

Now it would seem to me IF all is needed is BELIEF, why tremble? Obviously belief is NOT enough!

Brothers and Sisters, if we are going to quote and utilize scripture, WE NEED TO "rightly divide the Word of God" 2 Tim.2:12.

 Don't forget, the devil knows Scripture also, and IF we are not diligent seekers for truth, we are going to be led "down the primrose path to destruction."

  It is imperative that we study as we have never studied before, "Lest Satan should get an advantage over us:for WE ARE NOT IGNORANT of his devices." 2 Cor.2:11.

 GC516 "There is NOTHING that the great deceiver fears so much as that WE shall become acquainted with his devices."

 GC587 "It is ONE of Satan's DEVICES to combine with falsehood just enough truth to give it plausibility."

 And unfortunately this is what is happening among God's people today...the mixing of error with truth.

 And until we learn to teach what the Holy Spirit teaches us, "comparing spiritual things with spiritual (things), (1 Cor.2:13) we will be as fools and reliant upon the arm of flesh rather than trusting in God." (Jer.17:5)


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Keep "the" faith,BUT pass it around!

 Bro. Laurie

[This message has been edited by Laurie Mosher (edited 11-06-2000).]

Keep "the" Faith,  Brother Laurie

Dugald T Lewis MD

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« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2000, 08:28:00 PM »
Another hearty AMEN!! to your post Brother Laurie. I am happy to see the edification that exists on this forum. This is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
In the Blessed Hope
Dugald

Joan Rügemer

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« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2000, 01:09:00 AM »

 Wow, Laurie...that was such a fine uplifting posting from you. I was deeply blessed. Thank you also for getting emphasis on Ephes 2:10. It is very much needed for balancing out the oneside 'cheap Grace' messages of today.

 :) Joan