Dinosaurs at 30,000 Feet?

[Richard Myers]

We have all been taught that oil and gas come from decaying organic matter (fossil fuels). But, developments in deep-drilling for natural gas present serious challenges to those who still maintain "Fossil-Fuel" theories as to the origin of complex hydrocarbon fuels. World Net Daily

What are your thoughts? Seems to give some basis for thinking our gas prices will be going higher or lower?

[Cop]

The idea that petroleum derives from organic material buried millions of years ago, or in the Flood, has long been met with unbelief...especially among Christians. I remember discussions in Texas public school concerning this subject as a child.

I first heard theories that it is a natural occuring substance arising from deep in the earth approx. 20 years ago. For many years, science has known that previously depleted fields are being refilled from deep in the earth as the oil rises!

For most with a Christian background, the "proof" that petroleum existed prior to the Flood was Noah's use of pitch (asphalt) to construct the Ark. If it did not exist until animals were buried in the Flood...how did he get any to seal the Ark??

[JimB]

My brothers, to be honest, I'm somewhat confused and what is being implied here. Are we trying to say that coal, oil, and natural gas are not a result of organic material under great pressure and occur from other means? Or are we saying that it does occur that way. I've read the article and it seems to suggest that that these natural resouces are from something else other than dead organic material. Which is interesting. If that is what is being said and supported it appears to be at odds with Mrs. White in PP.

quote:At this time immense forests were buried. These have since been changed to coal, forming the extensive coal beds that now exist, and also yielding large quantities of oil. The coal and oil frequently ignite and burn beneath the surface of the earth. Thus rocks are heated, limestone is burned, and iron ore melted. The action of the water upon the lime adds fury to the intense heat, and causes earthquakes, volcanoes, and fiery issues. As the fire and water come in contact with ledges of rock and ore, there are heavy explosions underground, which sound like muffled thunder. The air is hot and suffocating. Volcanic eruptions follow; and these often failing to give sufficient vent to

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the heated elements, the earth itself is convulsed, the ground heaves and swells like the waves of the sea, great fissures appear, and sometimes cities, villages, and burning mountains are swallowed up. These wonderful manifestations will be more and more frequent and terrible just before the second coming of Christ and the end of the world, as signs of its speedy destruction.

Maybe I've completely missed your point(s)?

[Richard Myers]

The thought that came to me as I read about the deep "gas" wells is that maybe natural gas is not a "fossil" fuel or that if it is that there are other sources also. I thought the idea was interesting that gas was being found at such a depth where there was bedrock and where apparently there are no dinosaurs. What do you think, Brother Jim?

[Cop]

Crude oil and natural gas are classified as petroleum. They are formed by a different process than coal and its oils. Coal, and its derivatives, have long been made in the laboratory through heat and pressure, but not petroleum. It is not known to science how petroleum is created. Petroleum is not a fossil fuel!

Brother Jim, coal, and its accompany oils, are created, as the SOP says in your quote, and science has shown, from organic material. Petroleum (crude and natural gases) is not. To repeat what I learned in school, "For most with a Christian background, the "proof" that petroleum existed prior to the Flood was Noah's use of pitch (asphalt) to construct the Ark. If it did not exist until animals were buried in the Flood...how did he get any to seal the Ark??"

I see no contradiction between the SOP and revealed science. She is speaking of the formatiom of coal, not petroleum. True science will always support God's revelation.

[This message has been edited by Cop (edited 05-31-2006).]

[Richard Myers]

There are so many "theories" that are not in harmony with science and the Bible that I am never surprised to find that we have believed a lie.

Brother Cop, how did you come to see that "pitch" is oil? I would think that it is pitch from trees.

While trying to pin down if there is a difference between natural gas and oil, what about this idea that they get natural gas at 30,000 feet, at bedrock? That seems to say that it is not coming from dinosaurs. If so, that seems to have some rather interesting implications. So, where does gas come from?

[JimB]

I would not be opposed to the idea of their being other sources of these natural resources.  Science is so very often wrong that it would not surprise me. However, at this point I see Mrs. White's statements agreeing with current theories.

For instance there is more than one way to get ammonia. There are a few ways in lab and if someone has ever waited to long to clean out their cat's litter box it is obvious that nature has at least one way of creating ammonia.

Multiple sources of coal, oil, and natural gas? A very good possibility.

I have no idea how far the Lord buried the dinosaurs and other organic material with the flood. All I know is that satan even feared for his life during this time.

Brother Cop, I how do we know that the "pitch" mentioned in the Bible was asphalt? Mrs. White tells us that the trees then were more like today's metal(s). I'm not sure how we can know what the pitch was like.

[Cop]

"Brother Cop, how did you come to see that "pitch" is oil? I would think that it is pitch from trees." "Brother Cop, I how do we know that the "pitch" mentioned in the Bible was asphalt?"

When I was young, there were many pits around from which pitch rose up from the earth. I have never heard tree sap called 'pitch'. Since a child, I have heard 'pitch' also called asphalt and tar. It is no where insinuated in Genesis that 'pitch' is any other than that which was known to bubble up from the earth. This has always been accepted as the meaning of 'pitch'. If you disagree, please give evidence that pitch is derived from trees.

I do not see any contradiction with the statements of the SOP. Organic material was buried during the Flood and, from heat and pressure, became coal and its accompanying oils. Petroleum is  a natural product of the earth. How it is formed is unknown due to the great depths of its origin.

Strong's defines pitch as: asphalt, pitch (as a covering).

The three Hebrew words so translated all represent the same object, viz., mineral pitch or asphalt in its different aspects. Asphalt is an opaque, inflammable substance which bubbles up from subterranean fountains in a liquid state, and hardens by exposure to the air, but readily melts under the influence of heat. In the latter state it is very tenacious, and was used as a cement in lieu of mortar in Babylonia (Genesis 11:3) as well as for coating the outside of vessels, (Genesis 6:14) and particularly for making the papyrus boats of the Egyptians water-tight. (Exodus 2:3) The jews and Arabians got their supply in large quantities from the Dead Sea, which hence received its classical name of Lacus Asphaltites.  Smith's Bible Dictionary and Easton's Bible Dictionary.

[Richard Myers]

Thanks for the education, Brother Cop. Here is a bit more from a different perspective.   There is another "pitch" that has been around for a long time also.

"Pitch, gum, rosin, amber, pine tar, oleoresin... different names for the same thing. The various forms are all derived from the sticky sap of pines and other trees."

"The Gallo-Roman ship Guernsey 1 was carrying a cargo of pitch. Recent research (Connan et al, 2001) has located the source of the pitch to the Les Landes region of France, suggesting that the ship was on its way from there to Guernsey and on to Britain." worldwideflood

[Richard Myers]

This argument regarding the definition of "pitch" and the source of oil is new to me. I find it very interesting and it does not create any difficulties no matter which way it goes. I did a little research and will share an interesting article that I found.

"This author does tend to accept the theory that petroleum and its related products resulted from the great flood, but I will not deal with that issue here. If Noah's pitch were to be proven to be an oil product, it would hardly discount the flood account or young earth theories, it would only force some young earth creationists to reevaluate their theories concerning the origin of petroleum or to look into other ways that it oil could be produced. Woodmorape presented a number of alternative methods of producing an oil-based pitch in his valuable book Noah's Ark: A Feasibility Study [under article heading PITCH]. While his plausible arguments are useful, and are sufficient to counter attacks by scoffers, they are not necessary. The supposition that Noah's pitch was a petroleum product is an erroneous one, since the pitch that was used was almost certainly tree-based."

drdino

[Richard Sherwin]

I've never heard of pitch being anything other that that which came from trees. As a child if you climbed a pine tree you knew you would get pitch on your hands. Maybe it's just a regional thing as to what is called what.

Brother Sherwin

[Cop]

Interesting article, Richard. But I guess Richard S. has it right, "Maybe it's just a regional thing as to what is called what." The stuff y'all call pitch, is what we call rosin or resin. The stuff that seeps out of the ground, we call pitch or tar.

[JimB]

Here is another article regarding the "pitch" that Noah used. This seems like a good explination. Since wood is burned to make pitch. Here are two paragraphs...

quote:For those who are not geologists, pitch is a black glue-like substance left behind when coal tar is heated or distilled. It belongs to the same family of substances as asphalt or bitumen. Today, it is largely produced by heating coal. Most modern geologists know of no other source for it. But coal tar and petroleum are not the only source for pitch. Anyone who takes the time to consult a reasonable dictionary of geology will find that pitch can be extracted by distilling or heating wood. In fact, prior to the rise of the petroleum and coal industries, this was exactly how pitch was made.

For at least one thousand years, the pitch-making industry in Europe flourished. It was the pitch from this industry which assisted in the construction of those great wooden sailing ships which figured so prominently in European history. Pitch making was a skilled trade, and many European surnames bear testimony to that fact today. In Polish, the word for pitch or tar is ‘smola’. Any Polish telephone directory displays names such as Smola, Smolander, Smolen, Smolenski and Smolarz. These surnames simply mean ‘the man who makes pitch’.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v7/i1/noah.asp

[Richard Myers]

This is all very interesting.

Now, 30,000 feet is a long ways down. But, it was not the depth that got me thinking, it was that they were at bedrock. This seems to imply that there would be no dinosaurs at bedrock. Is that correct? Or does it seem to be correct?

[JimB]

Geology is an area where my knowledge is greatly lacking. So I'm not sure what "bedrock" really means. If they believe that no dinosaurs should be there I would like to know why that is thought to be.

[Richard Myers]

I am like you, Brother Jim. I am not very educated in such things. But, my guess is that when dinosaurs are found they are found in a certain strata which does not go to the bedrock. Apparently when the flood came the animals settled in a stata higher than the bedrock. Just a guess, but it seems logical and to go along with what is being said in the article. Someone who is knowledgable in this area could tells us if this is valid.

I think that the rock and dirt that was displaced would have settled in most cases before the living matter settled. Thus, the layers containing organic matter would be higher than the bedrock or bottom of the new stata being laid down.

It seems that the geological record is consistent in this layering to a great degree? Man's interpretation of how long it took and how it came about seems to be where Satan has injected his lies. It would be good if we could gain a bit more knowledge in this important area.