Author Topic: 2015 General Conference vote on Women's Ordination  (Read 51768 times)

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Richard Myers

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Re: 2015 General Conference vote on Women's Ordination
« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2015, 04:07:17 PM »
Ballots are being counted while we sing.  No one seems to be in a hurry to leave.  It was just announced that the evening program will start 30 mins late due to the ballot counting. Well......he did not say due to the ballot counting, but he knows that all are sitting through dinner waiting to see the results of the vote. As I sit here contemplating what transpired today, it seems that we were given a picture of the intense battle between Christ and Satan. Yes, that is a little hard, and I don't mean to apply this to all who want to ordain women. But, there is a battle over truth. The campaign by Jan Paulson to push the vote for women's ordination was a turning point for me and I think a lot of others. It signified who it was that thought it a matter of life and death and the whole world would fall apart if women were not made rulers over men. And there was little Natasha Neblett that was leading a youth movement saying that there is no greater work than that of mother. And, Elder Wilson humbly saying all knew his position on women's ordination. We have seen a contrast between the Lord's ways and those that are not.

BTW....we are singing hymns!!    :)
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Richard Myers

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Re: 2015 General Conference vote on Women's Ordination
« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2015, 04:15:54 PM »
Vote Result


2363  ballots cast

977    for women's ordination

1381  against women's ordination
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Richard Myers

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Re: 2015 General Conference vote on Women's Ordination
« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2015, 04:31:34 PM »
Elder Wilson is sharing as to where we go from here.  He is pleading for unity in the church, to "manifest the character of Christ....Put away any animosity....and unite.....May our hearts by softened by the Holy Spirit.....seek the unity that Christ prayed for."

He closed with Eph. 4:1-6  again pleading for "unity in the church through Christ......press together, press together, press together and thus unite.....Arise, shine, Jesus is coming, and I believe soon."


Closed with singing We Have This Hope
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Wally

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Re: 2015 General Conference vote on Women's Ordination
« Reply #43 on: July 08, 2015, 04:49:17 PM »
Vote Result


2363  ballots cast

977    for women's ordination

1381  against women's ordination

Well, the vote went as expected, but it's sad to see that more than 40% of the delegates voted "yes."  How many will get mad and leave?  I've heard rumblings to that effect, mostly from those who reject the IJ and the SOP, so one must question how "Adventist" they really are.  Will this cause an increase in the intensity of The Shaking?
So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants:  we have done that which was our duty to do.  Luke 17:10

Mark W

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Re: 2015 General Conference vote on Women's Ordination
« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2015, 06:00:14 PM »
Would be nice to think this settles the issue, but We all know better. Myself, I only see the division widening for the church will indeed look like it will fall but indeed it will go through to the end. So I can only see things getting a lot worse instead of better. But thanks be to God for still interceding in the affairs of His bride.
As well thanks to the ones that are blessed to be present at the GC session and are relaying the things that are happening. God bless you all. 

LindaRS

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Re: 2015 General Conference vote on Women's Ordination
« Reply #45 on: July 08, 2015, 07:20:45 PM »
Released on Nad News Points just a short time ago:

North American Division of Seventh-day Adventists Response to 60th General Conference Session Vote on Women's Ordination

The North American Division (NAD) of Seventh-day Adventists acknowledges the vote that took place earlier today at the 60th General Conference Session, not allowing for regional accommodation of those world regions asking to allow for the ordination of women. After much prayerful study and discussion, the delegates voted 1381-977 to not pass the motion on the session floor.
 
The leadership of the NAD is saddened by this vote, but respects the decision of the world body in session and we are committed to continual cooperation and fellowship with the world church. While todays vote does not allow for each division of the church to ordain women to gospel ministry, we will continue to follow General Conference policy by commissioning women pastors, and ordaining women elders and deaconesses.
 
Many individuals in the NAD have weighed in on the conversation preceding this vote, and some of these conversations have become emotionally charged. NAD President Daniel Jackson shared his desire for the division after the vote. “We ask our members to focus their energies on the one thing we can agree with, the mission of the church. God has called all of us to serve Him in ministry, whether we are recognized by the church or not. The NAD recognizes that every person no matter his or her race, age or gender has a vital role to play in sharing the gospel message with the world. Let us be united as a family that is bound by the love and grace of Jesus Christ. While we may disagree on various approaches to ministry, let us all agree on the need to reach all people with the message of hope and wholeness, and a new life in Jesus. We will continue with our intention of placing as many women into pastoral ministry as possible. We affirm the important role they play in reaching all of God’s children. We ask that all members of the Adventist Church keep praying for God’s guidance as we move forward in mission.”
 
-The Communication Department of the North American Division of Seventh-day Adventists
O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps. O Lord, correct me, but with judgment; not in thine anger, lest thou bring me to nothing. Jeremiah  10:23-24

John Erickson

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Re: 2015 General Conference vote on Women's Ordination
« Reply #46 on: July 08, 2015, 09:05:18 PM »
First of all, praise the Lord for the "No" result. I was hawking the twitter feed all day and then was able to see the counting of the ballots and the resulting announcement. So much time, effort, prayer, and study has gone into all of this. We must pray for the 41.5% who voted "yes." They are not all in rebellion, but the leadership is and/or was. We must pray that those honest in heart who voted for the question will not allow themselves to be shaken out, but that they will unify with the rest of the body.

As to Dan Jackson's statement, I took it to mean that they are going to take advantage of every possible opportunity to put women into positions of leadership without actually "ordaining" a woman as a minister (they will simply "commission" them). Am I wrong to think that this is all just an end-run around what was voted today? It reminds me of when I was riding in the car with my parents when I was a young boy. I would be singing quite loudly and obnoxiously and my parents would tell me to stop singing so loudly. So being the fine young man that I was (ha!) I began to whistle. They told me to stop whistling, so I started to click my tongue, then stop my foot, or rap on the window, etc. I get the feeling that the NAD is planning to do the same thing. "You said we couldn't ORDAIN a woman as a minister, so we won't do that. We'll simply COMMISSION a woman and we'll say she can baptize, perform weddings, and run the church, but not to worry, she is not ORDAINED."

Am I reading to much into this? Am I off in my conclusions?
"Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen" Matthew 28:20

John Erickson

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Re: 2015 General Conference vote on Women's Ordination
« Reply #47 on: July 08, 2015, 09:23:54 PM »
A few more questions/observations if I may:

1. It appears that those women elders who were already ordained by the MAUC, PUC, etc, will be able to continue to hold office? What do you think will happen here? It would be kind of ironic to have women pastors continue even after the church has voted, but here's the thing, these unions jumped the gun and rebelliously put these women into office before the church voted. Yet I can understand the possible reluctance to strip them of their pastoral duties as this would poison the water and could appear as vindictive.
2. It also appears like female elders will continue to be appointed?
3. It is my guess that any further ordaining of women pastors will be quickly squelched by the GC.
4. I'm pretty sure that some or all of these rebellious unions will continue to ordain women. I don't buy it that they are going to stop. At the very least they will be trying every semantical trick in the book to circumvent the voted will of the church imo.
"Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen" Matthew 28:20

Richard Myers

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Re: 2015 General Conference vote on Women's Ordination
« Reply #48 on: July 09, 2015, 04:35:58 AM »
Rebellion is often incurable.  Thank you for your thoughts, John. You have gotten to the difficulties we will face today. Let's consider them.

First, let's think on the blessings. Elder Wilson was re-elected by a very large majority. If those in rebellion had  been successful in replacing him, we would  be in great sorrow today.  But, there are inconsistencies in the election of GC officers. How could the Session place two men who led the rebellion as vice presidents?  God is in control and has allowed this. It is a second chance for both men, but it appears from the statement made by Jackson that he is unrepentant for his rebellion against his employer, the General Conference.  There have been discussions in the NAD as to what course to follow in the event the Session continued to say no to women's ordination. We see the extent of the rebellion against Scripture and church order in the comments made by Oberg and Roberts. They are intentional in their rebellion. They are not going to submit to the world church, nor the still small voice of God. Jackson has not publicly reproved those in rebellion. Has he done so privately? He was their leader as evidenced by his attitude, actions, and their great glee at his re-election.

I am interested, John, in why you think those not recognized by the world church as ordained, will be able to retain ordination credentials issued by the rebellious unions?  There is no doubt in my mind that Sandra Roberts will not be recognized as a Conference president by the World Church. And, if she continues to be recognized by the NAD, it is my hope that the General Conference will find a replacement for a rebellious division head. If the church is to move forward, it must do so with church order, not rebellion in high places. As for the SECC, I see little hope they will remain in the sisterhood of churches if they continue their present course. We pray for a better outcome, but there is a shaking and the church will be united in Spirit. Many were buried alive when they came into the church, and what we see now is the perplexities Ellen White spoke of as the result of so many not being dead to self.

John, you  brought up the ordination of women elders in the local church. That is inconsistent with the vote to not ordain women as ministers in the church. The underlying principle is that women are not to usurp the authority given to man in the home and the church. The executive committee of the GC usurped the authority of the GC in Session when they made that ruling many years ago. It is my hope that today or tomorrow there will be a motion made from the floor at this Session  to undo that illegal action taken by the executive committee of the General Conference.

The ordination of women so they can rule over men is only a symptom of a much deeper problem in the church. It has always been my desire to move past this issue to the real difficulty that Jesus wants to correct, the transformation of character of those who call themselves Seventh-day Adventists. In the Laodicean message to our church, Jesus speaks of needs that ought to be addressed as pointedly has the subject of women's ordination.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

LindaRS

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Re: 2015 General Conference vote on Women's Ordination
« Reply #49 on: July 09, 2015, 05:40:15 AM »
Elder Ng and a few others yesterday kept saying there are no winners and no losers. I consider that statement to be wrong. There is a disconnect in that many in leadership refuse to call sin by it's right name. Rebellion is rebellion.

Since I am at the session, I was able to get a good look around the dome yesterday, as well as the parking lots. There were vehicles from all over the USA and from Mexico and Canada. The lots were full. There were thousands of people in the dome, many more than would normally be present for a business session. Unlike those who have tried to downplay the importance of the decision on WO, it was obvious that thousands considered it important enough to be present yesterday during the discussion.
O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps. O Lord, correct me, but with judgment; not in thine anger, lest thou bring me to nothing. Jeremiah  10:23-24

Richard Myers

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Re: 2015 General Conference vote on Women's Ordination
« Reply #50 on: July 09, 2015, 06:27:54 AM »
Amen, Linda.  And, it was nice to meet you face to face.  Yes, we all know how important it was to resolve this issue since there is rebellion in the church. There appeared to be as many in the Dome yesterday as there were last Sabbath. That does not happen at GC Session business sessions.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

John Erickson

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Re: 2015 General Conference vote on Women's Ordination
« Reply #51 on: July 09, 2015, 07:52:05 AM »
Richard, I got this information from an article posted below. The spokesman of the denomination, Garrett Caldwell. it was in an article by religion news.com my phone wont let me copy the link or post a picture, so interested parties will have to look it up for themselves.

brother Richard, I hope that all that you have stated will happen will come to pass. I agree that the ideal scenario would be for all current women elders, pastorsl, and presidents to be stripped of their ordination credentials. perhaps the public relations spokesman spoke out of turn. we will just have to pray and see what happens.

"Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen" Matthew 28:20

HOOVER4

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Re: 2015 General Conference vote on Women's Ordination
« Reply #52 on: July 09, 2015, 01:10:32 PM »
Let me say first please excuse the fundamental questions. Could someone please explain the difference if any between a pastor and an ordained pastor? Also what does ordained entail? Thank you in advance for answering. Brian

ejclark

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Re: 2015 General Conference vote on Women's Ordination
« Reply #53 on: July 09, 2015, 05:47:29 PM »
Released on Nad News Points just a short time ago:

North American Division of Seventh-day Adventists Response to 60th General Conference Session Vote on Women's Ordination

The North American Division (NAD) of Seventh-day Adventists acknowledges the vote that took place earlier today at the 60th General Conference Session, not allowing for regional accommodation of those world regions asking to allow for the ordination of women. After much prayerful study and discussion, the delegates voted 1381-977 to not pass the motion on the session floor.
 
The leadership of the NAD is saddened by this vote, but respects the decision of the world body in session and we are committed to continual cooperation and fellowship with the world church. While todays vote does not allow for each division of the church to ordain women to gospel ministry, we will continue to follow General Conference policy by commissioning women pastors, and ordaining women elders and deaconesses.
 

-The Communication Department of the North American Division of Seventh-day Adventists
I was concerned that the vote on WO wouldn't completely fix this. Over the years there has been too many loop holes created that will take another GC session to fix. I don't trust for it to be fixed at Annual Council.

Richard Myers

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Re: 2015 General Conference vote on Women's Ordination
« Reply #54 on: July 10, 2015, 04:05:00 AM »
ej, there is still a chance someone will rise from the floor and move to correct the illegal act allowing women elders to be ordained. There is one more day of the Session.   Jackson is on thin ice. He now has to undo what he did in the last five years. He cannot undo SECC. He is in the valley of decision.  He cannot retain his position and allow the SECC to continue in rebellion. He made his bed, and now he must sleep in it. We pray he chooses right and we pray Sandra Roberts will step down and tear up her ordination credentials.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Plain Adventist

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Re: 2015 General Conference vote on Women's Ordination
« Reply #55 on: July 10, 2015, 04:07:17 AM »
Spectrum published this statement from the Netherlands Union, that they will continue ordaining women. The GC vote is meaningless to them.

"The delegates of the Dutch churches voted at their Session in the autumn of 2012 to ordain women in an equal way to their male colleagues. The vote took effect in June 2013 and will remain in effect. The decision of the General Conference Session in San Antonio does not change this.

Female pastors will continue to be ordained in the Netherlands Union Conference. We thank God that he calls men and women to serve him. We want to enthusiastically confirm that call by the laying on of hands." http://spectrummagazine.org/article/2015/07/09/adventist-church-netherlands-unchanged-ordination-vote

Now we will prayerfully await to see what the response will be.
Amy Pavlovik ~~ “The strength and spirituality of the people of God are manifest by the distinctness of the line of demarcation which separates them from the world.” SW 17

Richard Myers

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Re: 2015 General Conference vote on Women's Ordination
« Reply #56 on: July 10, 2015, 04:26:55 AM »
Let me say first please excuse the fundamental questions. Could someone please explain the difference if any between a pastor and an ordained pastor? Also what does ordained entail? Thank you in advance for answering. Brian

Welcome to the discussion, Hoover.   Pastor Immanuel is an ordained minister. He can add to my words if need be.  We were counseled to get ministers into the field quickly without a long time of education. We do that to a degree by placing "pastors" in church without advanced education.
But, education ought to be good, so seminary further educates the pastors that are working in churches. There is both good and bad in the existing system, sadly. But, to answer your question, generally, not all the time, after a masters degree is earned at seminary, the pastor is ordained. The difference is the recognition by the world church. The "pastor" is recognized by the conference, the ordained minister is recognized anywhere in the world. Ordination is the giving of authority by the body that ordains. In Seventh-day Adventist Churches, the authority to ordain ministers is given by the World Church (General Conference) to the unions to ordain minsters into the World Church.

In addition to the area being increased outside of the conference, the duties performed by the ordained minister is greater than the unordained pastor. Pastor Immanuel can add to or correct this if I left something out. I understand that an ordained minister can ordain local elders and deacons, conduct the Lord's Supper, perform the marriage ceremony, baptize, and establish new churches. In order to preside over a conference it is required that the individual be an ordained minister.  Thus Sandra Roberts, after her ordination was elected SECC president.

Hope this helps you and many others better understand the issue at hand. It is a matter of authority. Authority God has not given to women since it involves authority in the church no matter how much those in rebellion want to say we are all equal. We are not all given equal authority. We see the principle of authority in place when Moses appointed leaders over different groups. They were leaders with authority. That does not mean we are not all of great value. When the session was discussing the ordination motion on Wednesday, Natasha Neblett stated it very well when she said she did not need to be ordained, she was a leader of young people. She said she was looking forward to marriage and the work of which there is no greater, that of the mother.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Immanuel

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Re: 2015 General Conference vote on Women's Ordination
« Reply #57 on: July 10, 2015, 05:50:48 AM »
Let me say first please excuse the fundamental questions. Could someone please explain the difference if any between a pastor and an ordained pastor? Also what does ordained entail? Thank you in advance for answering. Brian

Richard gave a good summary of the differences. The idea behind a "licensed pastor" and an "ordained pastor" is so that a young man can have time to prove his calling. A licensed pastor has no more ability than a local elder, except that they have made provision for a licensed pastor to perform a weddings in his own local congregation and if they are assigned to more than one church they can perform ordinances in each church they are assigned, not just the church in which they are an ordained local elder.

The ordained minister can do all the things that Richard listed, with the addition of only an ordained pastor can preside over a church business meeting that is dealing with a church discipline issue, and can do them anywhere in the world because they have been ordained to the worldwide church. This is one of the issues that I had with the question that was voted on at the GC session. If that vote were to have passed would that have meant that now pastors are only ordained within their division? Fortunately we do not have to answer that question.

So to summarize, "licensed pastors" can only perform ordinances in their own congregations. They cannot preside over church discipline issues or establish churches or disband churches. The "ordained pastor" can perform ordinances anywhere in the world and can preside over church discipline issues and establish or disband churches, as well as ordain local elders and deacons.

Sister Dee

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Re: 2015 General Conference vote on Women's Ordination
« Reply #58 on: July 10, 2015, 08:12:41 AM »
Can someone please explain to me how enforcing what was voted on would work? 

I am hearing things like this still makes no difference at the local conference and union level and they can go ahead and do what they want.  Why a particular division cannot decide this for themselves, but those farther down would be allowed to is beyond logical reasoning in my opinion.   

John Erickson

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Re: 2015 General Conference vote on Women's Ordination
« Reply #59 on: July 10, 2015, 10:06:52 AM »
I think that is what we all want to know, sister Dee. There will have to be enforcement or else the vote didn't mean anything. What we have here are a bunch of unhappy people on the yes side of the question trying to find every loophole they can, or, in the case of the Netherlands, just flat out say "We are going to keep doing our own thing" in essence. Something must be done.
"Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen" Matthew 28:20