Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists

[Marelis]

I think that's it, Br Myers. At this point in Earth's history our first work is to ensure we are right with God and are being made fit for heaven. And having a sense of urgency for souls, male or female, we will do God's work wherever and at whatever level He calls us.

I do want to understand, though, what work/duties you don't think a woman ought to be ideally doing in the church.

[colporteur]

I think that's it, Br Myers. At this point in Earth's history our first work is to ensure we are right with God and are being made fit for heaven. And having a sense of urgency for souls, male or female, we will do God's work wherever and at whatever level He calls us.

I do want to understand, though, what work/duties you don't think a woman ought to be ideally doing in the church.

Mrs. White answers that question. Marelis

[Marelis]

Shouldn't...Preach? Teach? Sit on board meetings and nominating committees?

Should...Visit and help the poor, sick and the widows? Clean the church? Provide for potlucks?

[Richard Myers]

Sister Marelis, all of the above, but with explanation. Women ought not be teaching men according to the man who wrote most of the New Testament.

The Bible says that women ought not "usurp the authority over the man..."   This leaves much unanswered, but it does establish that Genesis 3:16 does apply to church as well as home.  Let us look at the statement in context so as to not read something into the verse that is not there. From 1 Timothy:

 2:10   But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 
 2:11   Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 
 2:12   But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

The rebels do not acknowledge this truth. They may object to part of it, but not on the basis of culture as some have done. Also, I have not read of any who address the rest of the verses which explain why it is that Paul has stated a woman is not to usurp the authority over man such as ruling as a conference president or elder in a local church.

It appears to me in verse 12 that a woman ought not be teaching men in church. When we study the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy, it does not appear to me that this means a woman may not speak in church, may not preach in church, may not prophesy in church.

Women have been given one of the most important works that there could ever be, the rearing of children. Why was it that Moses, Daniel, Enoch, David, or John the Baptist were of such godly character? Moral character is developed to a great extent by age six. Who is it that has the greater responsibility to form this character? In today's world, many women have to a great degree neglected this opportunity and responsibility. They have their eyes on the things of this world, not on the rearing of their children in a manner that will give honor and glory to God.

The mother of Moses did what was right, and her children and her were blessed as was Israel and the world.

     She kept the boy as long as she could, but was obliged to give him up when he was about twelve years old. From his humble cabin home he was taken to the royal palace, to the daughter of Pharaoh, “and he became her son.” Yet even here he did not lose the impressions received in childhood. The lessons learned at his mother’s side could not be forgotten. They were a shield from the pride, the infidelity, and the vice that flourished amid the splendor of the court.
 
     How far-reaching in its results was the influence of that one Hebrew woman, and she an exile and a slave! The whole future life of Moses, the great mission which he fulfilled as the leader of Israel, testifies to the importance of the work of the Christian mother. There is no other work that can equal this. To a very great extent the mother holds in her own hands the destiny of her children. She is dealing with developing minds and characters, working not alone for time, but for eternity. She is sowing seed that will spring up and bear fruit, either for good or for evil. She has not to paint a form of beauty upon canvas or to chisel it from marble, but to impress upon a human soul the image of the divine. Especially during their early years the responsibility rests upon her of forming the character of her children. The impressions now made upon their developing minds will remain with them all through life. Parents should direct the instruction and training of their children while very young, to the end that they may be Christians. They are placed in our care to be trained, not as heirs to the throne of an earthly empire, but as kings unto God, to reign through unending ages.  Patriarchs and Prophets, pg 244.

Notice again what was said. "There is no other work that can equal this." Sadly many mothers do not appreciate the opportunity they have been given by God. Blessed are those who do.

[Richard Myers]

If we expand our study to see more of the context we will confirm that Genesis 3:16 is the foundation upon which Paul builds his teaching on the authority of man. It is not human wisdom, but the Word of God that establishes the truth that there is headship in the home and in the church. In verse 13 we find the word "for." What does that mean in the context of our study? The word "for" refers back to the statement Paul just made in verses ten through twelve. It tells us that these verses are true "because" of what follows in verses thirteen through fifteen. Verses thirteen through fifteen send us back to Genesis 3:16 and what happened in the Garden 6,000 years ago. What happened 6,000 years ago. Adam was created, then Eve. Paul states this is important for us to know in regards to authority. Then something else happened according to Paul and the account given in Genesis, Eve was deceived.

 2:13   For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 
 2:14   And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 
 2:15   Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

 3:16   Unto the woman He said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.   

Rebellion disregards Paul's statement here and what was written in Genesis 3:16. It clearly states that a woman shall not rule over the man in church and in the home. In church, the elders, not women, are to teach the men. If there is no capable man, then we see in Scripture, as shameful as it may be, a woman who is capable ought to step up until a converted and grounded man can take the responsibility to do so. The same in the home. Often there is no godly man to lead out in morning and evening worship, then the woman ought to.

Is it shameful for women to rule over men? When rebuking Israel for the rebellion, God speaks: "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12. Read the chapter in context to make sure this is not God's way, but what happens when a people rebel against God and His prophets.

Thus, we may better understand the authority given to man by Scripture and the General Conference when in session three times in the last 30 years. And, as we study the Bible and church history, we find that it has always been so, until today in our modern society where our women and daughters now are told they must fight on the front line of battle because they are the very same as a man. The world has come into God's church.

The president of the North American Division is a leader in the rebellion is dead set on undoing what we just learned from Scripture regarding the headship of man. At the year end meeting of the NAD, he said
"There is hooey in the male headship theology. It was never Seventh-day Adventist, it is not Seventh-day Adventist, and it is not going to become Seventh-day Adventist."  "Our  women in the North American Division who serve as pastors and leaders will be protected by the North American Division,,,,,,and every conference and union president in this place." Remnant Online

There is a separation taking place in the world and in the church. The weeds will be separated from the wheat by the truth. Let us pray for the church, that it may be prepared to receive Jesus at His soon coming.

[ClaudiaThompson]

Being that I apparently am now still regarded as being in "rebellion" to the Church, because of the fact that years ago I dared to expose the Church's most popular Minister who taught liberal error for what he really was, and now they won't even acknowledge my Church Membership because of it. I have the ability to view all of this from another perspective, I believe.

It kind of astonishes me how now everything is all turned around backwards, in that it used to be that the "Conservatives" understood all about being Independent Ministries, and they also understood that the Conference Leaders were actualy in opposition to them. Now however, they are able to take advantage of the fact that there is a new Generation of SDA who know next to nothing about the past. Somehow they have been convinced that those at the very top are their 'Friends'.

It used to be that we knew and understood that the man at the very top who was involved in the Merikay Silver Case about Women getting the same wages as Men who were performing the same job was actually comparing our Women to 'Catholic Nuns' and others in our Church to 'Catholic Cardinals'. You know, the thing where our top Church Official said that the Great Controversy's ideas about the Catholic Church being 'bad' should be thrown into thr trash.

It used to be that we could see and realise that this idea against Women having important positions in the Church was actually motivated by something else than they think it is now. Always remember that the Catholic Church has Her own reasons for doing things like making Preists be celibate and so on. They do not think like we do. Always keep in mind too just how tricky Jesuits are. They use something called "Acculturation" and Inculturation. One of these has to do with doing all that they can to act like they are adopting another Church's beliefs and pracitces, so that they will be trusted, so that then they can get in their and change things.

And boy do I think that this has taken place in our Church! The line of Relatives that are kind of like 'the Bush Family' in our Church have managed to persuade our Conservatives that they are suddenly on 'their' side, and are now their best buddies. They have used this Women's Ordination issue to their advantage in this and hardly any of the Conservatives can even see what is going on. You have to be kind of like 'removed' from it all, like from the outside looking in, to realise it, as I am. These same Leaders, back in the day, were the ones who were covering up for that same Minister that I exposed way back then, and trying to spread rumors all over the World about me, to make it appear that I was 'insane', and all because they were using this same Minister in reality- to ecumenise with the other Churches. Now all of a sudden the same top Leader's Son comes along and convinces the Conservatives that he is their best Friend, and using the Women's Ordination issue to do it, and convincing them all that those on the other side are 'in Rebellion' to the Church Leadership.

The entire thing is a thing used to divert people from the real issues anyway, from the start, in that -- who in their right mind in this Omega of Apostasy would actually want to put themselves under the thumb or under the control of the Conference anyway, and become a Minister, whe they re not even really allowed to preach the real Three Angel's Gospel Message in the first place? They are forced to do things like the Jesuit Ignatius Loyola's Spiritual Exercises, the Jesuit's Spiritual Formation of the Church, --the said top Confernece leader beng one who sat as Chairman in making the decision to implement it it all when in reality we should not have even considered doing such a thing, let alone actually following through with it.

And then the Devil has us all wrapped up in whether or not WOMEN ought to be involed in these Jesuit practices and ideas and become Ministers too? I mean seriously, talk about being led to focusing upon the wrong thing!

I believe that the majority of our Conservatives in the SDA Church have almost lost the Plot completely, in that they have failed to read and understand that Ellen White, our Church Prophet told the Woman in our Church that they ought to be going out door to door and explaining the Scriptures to the people. She said that this is TRUE MINISTRY. That is what we, as Women, are supposed to be doing and focusing upon, not trying to place ourselves under the control of the Conference who will only hamper us in our Work of spreading the Three Angel's Messages.And that is what our Conservatives are supposed to be focusing upon. Cannot we see that this entire thing of Spiritual Formation is set up to try to rearrange things to turn our Denomination into essentially a Catholic one? Like the Catholic Hierarchy. You knlw, it's funny meant in a 'strange sense) that Samuelle Bacchiochi used to be known as probably being a Catholic Jesuit who infiltrated the Church with his book about Sunday and so on. We used to know that, the Independent Ministries. But then the same man goes and writes all against Women's ordination, and the Conservatives suddenly think that he is the greatest thing since sliced bread. You know what? He was exactly the same man in both cases, but they well know how to use issues to turn people around. It's the old NLP trick of 'reframing' things, first you agree with someone to make it appear you are on their side and view things the same way, then you slowly turn them to your own views.

[Richard Myers]

Sister Claudia, I have read what you have posted and I am going to go spend some time in the garden and pray about how to respond. No one here is following a man. We have addressed the subject of women's ordination from Scripture, as I just pointed out. Read what I posted and respond to that. I will respond to your thoughts about the church when I know what to say and how to say it.

[Marelis]

Hi Claudia. Your post has given me much to ponder. Agreeing with you re who [of us women] would in our right minds want to be ordained to work with the conference today? There's a great work to be done off the radar. I'll try to respond further to your post as time permits..

[Richard Myers]

Sister Claudia, you see many wrongs in the church. This ought not surprise you or anyone who has studied the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy. Both tell us that this would be the situation in the seventh church, the last church, God's church. We also will be encouraged because the same Books tell us the church will see revival and reformation. So, we can rejoice knowing that prophecy has come true, and we have wisdom to have seen it.

I am so sorry for the difficulties you have had in the church. We can rejoice knowing that as we abide in Christ these trials work for our good and God's glory since we learn to be more patient and gain an experience that makes us more perfectly reflect the character of our Savior and Lord. Many places in Scripture tell us this, but none so clearly as Romans 5:3-5. "And not only [so], but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us."  And we also notice that as we abide in Christ and experience great trials, we are His witness to the world that there is a God in heaven who has power to transform sinners into saints.

I believe that the majority of our Conservatives in the SDA Church have almost lost the Plot completely, in that they have failed to read and understand that Ellen White, our Church Prophet told the Woman in our Church that they ought to be going out door to door and explaining the Scriptures to the people. She said that this is TRUE MINISTRY. That is what we, as Women, are supposed to be doing and focusing upon, not trying to place ourselves under the control of the Conference who will only hamper us in our Work of spreading the Three Angel's Messages.And that is what our Conservatives are supposed to be focusing upon. Cannot we see that this entire thing of Spiritual Formation is set up to try to rearrange things to turn our Denomination into essentially a Catholic one? Like the Catholic Hierarchy. You knlw, it's funny meant in a 'strange sense) that Samuelle Bacchiochi used to be known as probably being a Catholic Jesuit who infiltrated the Church with his book about Sunday and so on. We used to know that, the Independent Ministries. But then the same man goes and writes all against Women's ordination, and the Conservatives suddenly think that he is the greatest thing since sliced bread. You know what? He was exactly the same man in both cases, but they well know how to use issues to turn people around. It's the old NLP trick of 'reframing' things, first you agree with someone to make it appear you are on their side and view things the same way, then you slowly turn them to your own views.

You are so very right that we do not need to be ordained, neither man nor woman. Would we rather be ordained by God or the conference? And, God ordains women as well as  men, but not to rule over men. The church does not have all things right. Ordination does not have to be required to be a conference president. How about requiring that a conference president must be a man?  That was easy.

And, dear sister, who ever said that a conservative was always right? To think this would lead one to be easily deceived. For wolves have come into God's church dressed in conservative sheep's clothing. Just because they say they follow the Bible and say they believe in the Spirit of Prophecy, and they say they believe in  victory over sin, does not mean they really believe these things or do them. And, "spiritual formation" is not the omega of apostasy. The "omega" will be more difficult to see, and conservatives will be involved.  The more truth, the more subtle to deception. If possible the very elect shall be deceived, but they will not because they have spiritual discernment being filled with the Spirit.

By the way, one the verses you like, I pray frequently, Matthew 9:38. The workers are so very few, but not for long. Jesus is coming soon. Let us keep our eyes upon Jesus, for the third angels message begins with the story of the Jesus, the gospel of grace. As we spend time contemplating His grace, we shall have our focus in the right direction. Join with us in reading Desire of Ages daily. It lifts us up above the darkness of this world.

Its good to see you back with us. I pray a blessing for you and us as we share with each other what God is doing in our lives daily.

[Richard Myers]

The Whole Life Church is a Seventh-day Adventist Church. It was the Florida Hospital SDA Church. They think they are funny in attacking Scripture and the church. One day it will be clear what they have done.

[Richard Myers]

We have not been discussing the expansion of the rebellion. It is obvious there are two groups forming in the world and in the church. What we are seeing in the church did not come about without a cause. It is the result of the Laodicean condition within the church. Many in the church including ministers remain in a Laodicean state. They believe they are rich and increased with goods, but know not they are miserable, wretched, poor, and blind, and naked. Thus the reason for the perplexities in the church.

The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ (Manuscript 148, 1897). { 6BC 1075.7 }

The solution given in the message  found in Rev. chapter three is the same message Jesus gave to Nicodemus. We must buy of Him gold tried in the fire which is faith that works by love, His love. Until the church sees revival and reformation the rebellion will continue to bring reproach upon God, His Word, and His church. Let us be faithful witnesses of the power of that love to transform sinners into saints.

No truth does the Bible more clearly teach than that what we do is the result of what we are. To a great degree the experiences of life are the fruition of our own thoughts and deeds.

“The curse causeless shall not come” ( Proverbs 26:2). “Say ye to the righteous, that it shall be well with him.... Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him” ( Isaiah 3:10, 11). “Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts” ( Jeremiah 6:19). Terrible is this truth, and deeply should it be impressed. Every deed reacts upon the doer. Never a human being but may recognize, in the evils that curse his life, fruitage of his own sowing. Yet even thus we are not without hope....

Jacob resorted to fraud, and he reaped the harvest in his brother’s hatred. Through twenty years of exile he was himself wronged and defrauded.... But God says: “... I have seen his ways, and will heal him....” ( Isaiah 57:18). Jacob in his distress was not overwhelmed. He had repented, he had endeavored to atone for the wrong to his brother. And when threatened with death through the wrath of Esau, he sought help from God.... “He wept, and made supplication” ( Hosea 12:4). “And he blessed him there” ( Genesis 32:29).... The power of evil in his own nature was broken; his character was transformed....
 
God does not annul His laws. He does not work contrary to them. The work of sin He does not undo. But He transforms. Through His grace the curse works out blessing.  Conflict and Courage pg10.