Author Topic: Justification by Faith  (Read 50452 times)

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Justin

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #80 on: May 19, 2001, 08:48:00 PM »
Brother Harry,

In my opinion, you seem to take the plain things in a overly complicated manner. I am not going to respond to your every point, but I would like to quote Mrs. White from her "Steps to Christ" to show how contrast her understanding is to yours.


YOU SAID:

In Chapter 7, he says the coming of the law didn't solve anything, it only caused people to behave worse! Then he says that it isn't the law's fault, it's the sin in our physical nature that reacts badly to law, even to law that is holy, just and good.

MRS. WHITE SAID:

Paul says that as "touching the righteousness which is in the law" - as far as outward acts were concerned - he was "blameless" (Philippians 3:6); but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner. Judged by the letter of the law as men apply it to the outward life, he had abstained from sin; but when he looked into the depths of its holy precepts, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation and confessed his guilt. He says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Romans 7:9. When he saw the spiritual nature of the law, sin appeared in its true hideousness, and his self-esteem was gone. (Steps to Christ 29-30)

Brother Harry,

With all due respect, your assertion that God's law only caused people to behave worse is such an outrageous "spin-doctoring" position that even my former hardcore Calvinistic brethren would have rejected it.

Justin


Allan F

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #81 on: May 20, 2001, 03:36:00 AM »
In our discussion about justification by faith, it may be clarifying to be aware of the reformationist view, or the most common view in SDA today about justification, which I do not find biblical and not in harmony with the SOP. In this way we may better understand what is the problem:


JUSTIFICATION (GOSPEL)

Strictly forensic
Declared   NOT   Made righteous
Imputed      NOT   Imparted
Free gift   NOT   Cooperation
Root      NOT   Fruit
Good news   NOT   Good advice
Reformation   NOT   Roman Cath. theology

Never the work of the Spirit
Christ      NOT   Holy Spirit
Objective   NOT   Subjective
Outside      NOT   In the heart
In heaven   NOT   On earth
For us      NOT    In us
In Christ   NOT    Christ in us
2000 years ago   NOT   Present experience

Failure to remove all elements in the right-hand columns from the Gospel (left columns) is beleived to represent the false Gospel
(From the book 'The Theology Crisis', by A. L. Moore, 1979).

According to this view, the sacrifice of Christ is alone determinative of salvation; the work of the Holy Spirit is beleived to be the fruit, and is necessary as evidence for justification, but it is automatic and not determinative. White, on the other hand, I find to beleive that the great sacrifice provides for a second probation to all who enter the covenant with God. And the maintenance of this cooperation with Christ and The Holy Spirit determines the result of the probation.

This was a very brief overview over these different views. But as far as I have studied, this seems to be the sum of this two views.

Allan F


Dugald T Lewis MD

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #82 on: May 21, 2001, 03:30:00 PM »
One of the most comprehensive and authoritative sources on justification by faith is a book written by Elder A.G Daniels entitled "Christ our Righteousness". This book was the result of an action taken by the Ministerial Association Advisory Council held in De Moines Iowa, October 22, 1924.  In this action, it was voted that Elder Daniells be asked to arrange for a compilation of the writings of Mrs E.G White on the subject of Justification by Faith.
That book was the result.

It is important to understand that Justification can only be retained through continual obedience.

DTL


DavidTBattler

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #83 on: May 28, 2001, 10:32:00 PM »
Hello Everyone

I have one of my "interesting questions" again!   :)

I think this is the most appropriate thread to ask it, but if it isn't; let me know...

I would like to explore with willing soldiers of the cross this question:

"Is there a difference, between being 'justified,' and being 'forgiven?'  If so; what is this difference, and why?"

------------------
"Know the grace of God in Truth."  (Col.1:6).

Your brother in Christ

David T. Battler


Richard Myers

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #84 on: May 28, 2001, 10:51:00 PM »
That is an interesting question, Brother David. Does forgiveness extend indefinitely? If you murder a mother's son and are sorry and are forgiven, does that forgivness continue if you murder the second and last child?

Let me put it another way. If I forgive you because you lied to me, and then you steal from George, do I still forgive you for lying to me? I don't think the question is probably a very good one. What are you trying to get at?

Justification accompanies forgiveness. When one is truly repentant, he is justified and forgiven. When one sins, he loses his justification and is in need of forgiveness.

The lost may have been justified in the past and had their sins forgiven at a point in time, but they will suffer for each sin they ever did. This is to say that the forgiven sins will not be forgiven in the end.

I hope this answers your question in a manner that is appropriate to this topic.  :)

Richard

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jherbertthompson

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #85 on: June 07, 2001, 03:19:00 PM »
Dear Brother's and Sister's:

I have, along with a number of other "authoritive" books and manuscripts; Elder A.G Daniels entitled "Christ our Righteousness".  I might add that there is some very interesting 'stuff' written around 1888 by Jones and Waggoner regarding this subject which Mrs. White said had our church understood and adopted this message, we would have been home [1890].

All to often in forums such as this one, there are many 'interpretations' to the theme of 'Righteousness by Faith'.  It is, however, (IMO) a rather simple, not complex issue.  Righteousness by faith begins the moment the sinner comes to the cross with his/her burden of a life damaged by sin...And, it is here I might add, that each and every one of us become equals in the daily and step by step march toward heaven...Justification 'is' at that point we 'lay our burden down' and confess that we are 'unable' to do, and ask Him to 'do' for us that which is impossible...God just loves to do the impossible... :)

(IMO) When we get any deeper in the 'theology' of this matter, there becomes far to much "I" in the solution...How can this be?  :o  Justification is a 'moments work'. It is, the easy part [for us]...And it is also here that I think many of us get 'hung-up' or, the 'yo-yo' effect?

The only doctrine [truth] which I believe we as Seventh-Day-Adventist's have which is different than all other protestant churches is this:  "The doctrine of Prefection before Glorification"...Ouch!

We cannot (IMO) live in a state of 'justification', and at the same time live as maturing christians...We are to grow, be 'sanctified', become so deeply rooted in the 'truth' that we cannot be moved...Justification, as a part of the Sanctuary service [either in heaven or on earth] has already ended.  We now live in the 'Day of Atonement'...And, as a result of this, we must be in constant anguish of soul over or sins, past and present.  Asking for forgiveness, and I think a deeper knowledge of what sin truely is...there are layers to the law...Christ showed us that while He was here on this earth..."If you hate your brother, you have already murdered him"; and, "If you lust after a woman in your heart, you have already commited adultry with her"...It can only be a clear sign to us that sin goes much deeper than our actions.  It is motive, thought, and much much more...

I hope someone will offer their idea(s) to this conversation, as I would hate to see these threads die while some of us are truely searching out 'truth' for our selves...

Sincerely your brother in Christ.  


Dugald T Lewis MD

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #86 on: June 07, 2001, 04:40:00 PM »
Dear Brother Thompson,

I am glad to see that I am not the only one reading the book by Elder Daniels. It is simple and straigthforward.

I agree that living the sanctified life should be the goal of every mature christian. Embodied in this is the concept of loving obedience.

Let us pray that the sanctified life that we speak about will be synonymous will primitive godliness.

Sincerely
Dugald


Richard Myers

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #87 on: June 07, 2001, 08:18:00 PM »
Brother Herbert, let us then use the language of the Bible. There is far too much "I". The Bible is clear and the Words of Jesus are very clear!  :)

We are having difficulty with Justification by Faith because we have trouble with the foundation principles of the gospel. Rather than begin in this thread, it would be good to take a look at the others that are easier to understand and which when understood make Justification by Faith easy to understand. Suggestions include Gospel and Salvation, Satan's Great Lie, Romans 7, Abide in Me and I in You. These all deal with the foundation principles.

We will continue here, but it is very difficult if we believe that we have life when we do not. In order to understand Justification by Faith, we must understand that we are not "justified" when we sin.

The Seventh-day Adventist Church is not the only church that believes one can be "perfect" this side of heaven.  This is not a "new" theology, but rather the old gospel known from the time of Adam. The distincive doctrines that we hold today are the Sabbath, the State of the Dead, and the Sanctuary message found in the previously sealed book of Daniel. Even the Sabbath and the state of the dead are believed by some other churches. That leaves the "day of atonement" or the judgment message that we have been entrusted with. No other church that I know of teaches this correctly.

Richard

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D.B. Thomas

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #88 on: June 08, 2001, 12:33:00 AM »
Hello Richard

I just got around to reading your reply to me above.

I am sorry  have not really explained myself to well yet.   :)

What I am actually asking is this:

Let's say I ask God to forgive me, and I base my request on 1 Jo.1:9.

By God's Word, I am forgiven.

Does forgiven, in this context, = justification?

Is being forgiven for any sin, the same as being justified?  Are the Words "forgiven" and "justified" synonomously used in the Bible?

I will try to explain more when I get more time to write it out.  Thanks for bearing with me here!   :)

------------------
"For surely, I shall command, and will sift the house of Israel; YET NOT THE SMALLEST GRAIN SHALL FALL TO THE GROUND!"  (Amos 9:9).

D.B. Thomas

"I will mention the loving-kindness of the Lord, and the praises of the Lord; according to all that the Lord has bestowed upon us."  (Isa.63:7).
"Let the preciousness, mercy, and glory of Jesus Christ be dwelt upon; for Christ formed within, IS THE HOPE OF GLORY."  (1S.M. pg. 158).

D.B. Thomas


Richard Myers

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #89 on: June 08, 2001, 05:49:00 AM »
Brother DB, can a man be forgiven his sins unless he be justified? No. There is only One way which a man can be forgiven, by the blood of the Lamb.

Richard

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jherbertthompson

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #90 on: June 10, 2001, 03:11:00 PM »
Brother's and Sister's:

Brother Myers and Thomas...Both of your statements have been questions which I have been pondering much these past few months...

On-the-one-hand, we are 'raised' to believe that Jesus "saved us from sin" and not "in our sin"...but I wonder?  What about
Romans 5:8?  Can there be more than one 'principle' at work here?  :confussed:

Justification litterally means 'set right' or 'save'...Salvation actually comes from a root which means 'suave' or 'ointment' [to save]...forgiveness I have yet to thouroughly cheek-out as the original languages are complicated and I have only a limited ability to search them out for my self...However, I would venture a educated guess that it's meaning is similar to that of justification [to rectify; set right; make at one].  Yet, and as Brother Thomas points out, the 'free gift' of salvation does not make us 'trust worthy' or, 'safe to take home to heaven'...It seems [to me] very clear that we are all 'forgiven, even justified' by the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ at the Cross.  However, we are not 'saved' until we 'accept' the 'gift'...We are not 'trustworthy' as it were...

The application of the 'concept' of 'righteousness by faith'  and 'perfection' as such were [as brother Myers has stated] understood by Adam, and Enoch.  And, Enoch was 'translated', his heart [mind or character] 'at one' with the harmonies of heaven...[:) And this, we are told, must be 'our state' just prior to the return of Jesus!]  This was, again passed down from generation to generation as biblically clear, and evidenced by the fact that Abel died, I believe, defending the faith for this very 'principle'...

Academically however, I remain with what the Seventh-Day-Adventist church calls [or used to call] the 'Four S's'.  Second Advent; Sabbath; State of the Dead; and, Sanctuary...All of which were taught in the pre-baptismal class as the 27 Fundamental Doctrine's [melted down, so-to-speak] and the principle's of Advent belief...

The 'principle' of 'perfection' is not touched on in any one of these four...In fact, when I mentioned the concept for the first time I was cautioned to hesitate consideration on that subject for a while longer, as there is false doctrine also associated which I later found is the doctrine of 'holy flesh'.  Perhaps someone here would wish to comment on the difference of these two in conjunction with Righteousness by Faith?

It is interesting to note that our pioneer's, all coming from a very diverse group of christian persuasions.  Mrs. White in particular, coming from a strong Methodist back-ground, had entirely different view on the doctrin's of justification and sanctification which during thef course of following were greatly modified, as were the views of the church proper...

Regarding the Day of Atonement - Sancturary or 'Investigative Judgement' theology.  Our founder's came by this 'theology' in a most remarkable way, many times spending whole nights in debate and prayer.  Finally, and often an 'impasse', Mrs. White would be taken in vision and the subject would be revealed to her, and she would then convey the message to those present...Mrs. White clearly states that the revelation of 'Truth' will continue right on down through the end of time, and we may 'never fully understand these truths until we do reach heaven'...

So, in terms of other churches 'teaching this as we do', it has been a long time in coming to it present understanding(s). And, it may be a little while longer coming to a point where, God's people are, in fact, close enough to the truth of the message that we will be 'true and faithful witnesses'; finally able to tell the 'truth about God'...Or as God said about Job: "He has said what is 'right' about me..."  I therefore,  differ here that 'we' are the only one's...we have still 'not arrived' by any means. :eek:

Hope all have a 'good week', a 'godly week', and I will enjoy continuing this perhaps a little more often now as I have found a new driver, and will be able to be here at the University more often... :)

Sincerely your brother in Christ.


D.B. Thomas

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #91 on: June 10, 2001, 11:55:00 PM »
Hello jherbertthompson

You were reading my mind a little bit during your above comments about Romans 5:8.    :).

Thankyou for your contributions here @ TRO.  I enjoy them very much.

But now for a question to further explain where I am coming from:

Is "justification" the work of a lifetime, or is it an event?  A one time thing?

I think all would agree that "sanctification" is the work of a lifetime; but how does "justification" fit into this?

Are we "justified" at the moment of Christ's death, as Rom.5:8 seems to say?  Or is there more to it?  Is forgiveness of sins justification; or, is the death of Christ our justification?

Sometimes; in the weakness of our understandings, we can make things like repentance an obstacle between us and the Savior:

SC.026.001
"Just here is a point on which many may err, and hence they fail of receiving the help that Christ desires to give them. They think that they cannot come to Christ unless they first repent, and that repentance prepares for the forgiveness of their sins. It is true that repentance does precede the forgiveness of sins; for it is only the broken and contrite heart that will feel the need of a Saviour. But must the sinner wait till he has repented before he can come to Jesus? Is repentance to be made an obstacle between the sinner and the Saviour?"


Is this why Eph.2:13 tells us " Ye who were once afar off, are made near by the blood of Christ?"

So, how does the SDA Church teach regarding the relationship of the blood of Christ, the forgiveness of sin/s, and being "justified?"  In other words, does the Bible teach more than one type of justifying?  One by the blood of Christ, and one by the forgiveness of sin?    Exactly how are these two related?

Please don't come after me for "teaching" any abberant theology.  I am just asking research questions for now; not stating what I believe here yet... :).
------------------
"For surely, I shall command, and will sift the house of Israel; YET NOT THE SMALLEST GRAIN SHALL FALL TO THE GROUND!"  (Amos 9:9).

D.B. Thomas

[This message has been edited by D.B. Thomas (edited 06-11-2001).]

"I will mention the loving-kindness of the Lord, and the praises of the Lord; according to all that the Lord has bestowed upon us."  (Isa.63:7).
"Let the preciousness, mercy, and glory of Jesus Christ be dwelt upon; for Christ formed within, IS THE HOPE OF GLORY."  (1S.M. pg. 158).

D.B. Thomas


frenchmon

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #92 on: June 11, 2001, 03:40:00 PM »
D.B. Thomas...can you kindly help me to understand what you believe about the above questions???It will be much more easy to answer you... Thanks...--frenchmon  :)

[This message has been edited by frenchmon (edited 06-11-2001).]


D.B. Thomas

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #93 on: June 11, 2001, 09:04:00 PM »
Hello frenchmon

I don't see how my belief could possibly help here.  I just stated in the above post that I am researching the matter, and that that was the reason for my questions.

------------------
"For surely, I shall command, and will sift the house of Israel; YET NOT THE SMALLEST GRAIN SHALL FALL TO THE GROUND!"  (Amos 9:9).

D.B. Thomas

"I will mention the loving-kindness of the Lord, and the praises of the Lord; according to all that the Lord has bestowed upon us."  (Isa.63:7).
"Let the preciousness, mercy, and glory of Jesus Christ be dwelt upon; for Christ formed within, IS THE HOPE OF GLORY."  (1S.M. pg. 158).

D.B. Thomas


jherbertthompson

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #94 on: June 12, 2001, 10:11:00 AM »
Brother Thomas and TRO:

Ah!  It is a good thing to know that we have an 'Elder Brother' who is both our 'High Priest' and our 'Friend'!

As a relatively new Christian, these 'thoughts' of mine are really questions which have been in my mind [I think some of them for years] and, ever since I began studying for baptism.  Two years ago, if you had told me that I would become a Christian, I would have laughed you out of town; but to be participating in a discussion group of this calibre is really more than I would have ever anticipated!

However, before I commit heiracy, or as you put it construct 'abberant theology'; let me say that although I do believe that the Seventh-Day-Adventist Church
teaches the 'Truth as found in the Bible'; I approach much of this 'doctrine' from some-
what less of a SDA 'point of view'; and, more of a 'relationship' perspective.  Theology and Biblical Prespective are necessary in their place.  Yet, the majority of people (IMO) never get beyond the 'milk and soup' stage of their christian experience...That is why a forum like this is particularly inter-
esting to me as I do not accept 'God says so' kind of theology...God 'does say so'; but, He expects us, with the intelligence He has given us to 'reason these things out', and to survey the 'evidence'.  It is at that point we are able to decide 'for ourselves' as to what is 'so', so-to-speak...This really is not an 'agenda' on my part.  However, it may explain why I express things in the parculiar way in which I do...I also have the greatest of pleasures of being both retired and close to an Adventist University where, I spend hours upon hours each week studying these things out for myself; that I may give an account to all men what it is, and why it is that I believe in this Gospel.

Well!  With all that said, perhaps I should get on with the subject at hand:

First of all, I would like to point you towards three separate books which I began with; and which, have been the base from which I proceeded in this venture. Dr. Arnold
V. Wallenkampf has written:  'Justified';
'Perfect in Christ'; and, 'Salvation Unlimited'...He himself calls these three books a 'Perspective in Righteousness by Faith'.  I would agree.  And, I will use short excerpts from a couple of chapters.
Perhaps this will also give somewhat of a 'solid SDA platform' so-to-speak, that all may find acceptable?  By-the-way (BTY), if you cannot find or borrow copies of these books please tell me and I will point you to a sda.net sight which provides these books in their entirity...

> Your question that: "Is justification a one time event; or, somehow an ongoing 'event' in our lives?  [I like that!]

In my previous post I stated that in my opinion (IMO), justification came both at the cross and at the moment we 'repent'; and as Sister White says, [repentance is:] "a turn-
ing away from our sinful past"...Can this be a one time thing?  I don't think so by the very definition.  Do you?  We are constantly brought into a face to face recognition of our faults by observance of the Ten Commandment, and the fact that is these 'show' us how we 'measure' up to the Character of God...Wouldn't you agree?  Mrs.
White also says that, "the closer we get to an experience of total commitment to Christ, the more abhorant and sinfull our own character's will appear!"

I also occurs to me that in a discussion like this we need to at least cover a sort of definition about sin, and the sin problem...
I personally prescribe to the idea that sin is more than mere rebelliousness or lawlessness...Sin 'damages' the sinner!  Sin, with all of it's destructiveness is what hurts God so much, and makes it so grevious to Him as our creator...An illistration:  Suppose there is a 'rule' in your house that no one is to kill any living creature on you property.  Sabbath afternoon, after coming home from church, you look out your window and find that your next door neighbor is beating your cats brains out against the side walk...Are you 'angry' about the fact that this individual is 'breaking the rules'; or, are you horribly distruaght at the fact that your poor cat is being killed?

Likewise, the problem with sin that the plan of salvation was devised to fix is not the matter of appeasing an angry God who's 'rules we have brooken'.  No!  God's attitude toward us has not changed.  We have changed.  We are 'damaged' by sin...Let's use this example as being that satan is the neighbor, and we, the poor cat...Make any sense?

In his book "Justified", Dr. Wallenkampf makes the following observation(s).  "The term 'sanctification' is not a felicitous expression when used in contradistinction to justification by faith.  In post-Reformation theological thinking, it denotes a process of character development, or the result of this experience culminating in the ultimate attainment in Christian maturity..."

Simply, why do you think that 'Rahab' is in the "Faith, Hall of Fame"?  She was a whore. She, along with her people had 'heard all the stories about the "God of the Isrealite's" and was, in her own mind convincened that He alone was the one and true God of this universe as she understood it...Do you think that while she hid the spies in the flax, that they were praying: "Oh God, please have Rahab 'tell the truth' in regard to where we are!"  I don't think so!  :)  No!  They were HOPING that she would not 'give them up'!  Was she 'saved' because she knew all about the doctrine's?  The Seventh day Sabbath; the State of the Dead; or even the Sanctuary?  I don't think so...

Dr. Wallenkampf further states in his book (By the way: [BTW], I'm in chapter 13, "Justification and Sanctification - Distinct, but never separate"):  "That when a person 'accepts salvation' through Christ's grace, he chooses to live a life devoted to God and His service.  He is dedicated or consecrated to God.  Thus he is HOLY."

In the OT [and here we go again, back to the sanctuary and atonement], on the three previous days to the day of atonement, the people of Israel were to "Sanctify themselves 'Holy and Apart' from their transgressions; and to prepare for the 'cleansing of the Temple of God'!"  Here, if I am not mistaken, is an example of both 'justification and sanctification' at work.  What do you think?

Dr. Wallenkampf:  "Though we often prefer to separate them in our thinking [justification and sanctification] because it makes it easier for us to understand these two experiences in the salvation process, it would be well for us as Christian's to follow the example of the apostle Paul and not separate justification by faith from theological sanctification..."

Dr. Norval F Pease, and who's Seminary thesis was extensive research on the "History of the Doctrine of Salvation by Faith in the Seventh-Day-Adventist Church".  Wrote, in 1962 a wonderful book called: "By Faith Alone"...You may have this book in your personal library; or, some 'older' member may have it.  Either way, it also has helped me to 'get a handle' so-to-speak on this subject.

I find it interesting that in it's Foreword, by Elder R.R. Figuhr; he states that even then: "There was suggested by a few - that the Seventh-Day-Adventist Church has gone astray in failing to grasp this great and fundamental Christian teaching..."  

In Chapter 11; "Twentieth-Century Adventism and Justification by Faith", pp.177-224.  Dr. Pease makes the following comments:

(BTW) "The terms 'justification and righteousness by faith were seldom used by Mrs. White after 1900..."  

"Thus, it is evident that Seventh-Day-Adventist leaders on the whole, in speaking of justification and righteousness by faith, stressed that justification must be accompanied by a change of heart and the surrender of the will so that Christ may dwell in the heart throught the Holy Spirit and work out righteousness in the daily life..."  Justification and Sanctification mixed into one?  I think so...

Interestingly enough however, I'm not so quick to 'buy' the concept that God wishes to 'control' man's Will...We are not subject to a God who merely wishes 'puppets'.  On the contrary!  God's government is based on FREEDOM...Freedom includes the right to say either YES or NO...Therefore, we may be justified at the moment of 'repentence and confession'; and not 'saved'; 'safe'; or even 'trusted'...We must accordingly say YES to God, His way of doing or running His government, and the 'Holiness of His Law'...What do you think?

I really could go on, and on, and on...This is a most interesting subject, and one in which I thoroughly enjoy discussing with other's of like-minded-faith...Time and space do not permit my continued 'thesis'...And, I am working on several web-pages which will cover this and a multitude of other subjects included in the Great Controversy Theme...

Until the next time...

Your brother in Christ Jesus  


 


Richard Myers

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #95 on: June 12, 2001, 12:42:00 PM »
Brother Frenchman, good to see you!!  :) How is married life? In Christ I am sure you are being blessed!

Brother Herbert, your ideas seem to be good. I do so much appreciate your understanding that God wants us to "reason" with Him. He wants us to learn of Him that we might surrender the whole heart to Him. Then, we may understand spiritual things.

As a new Christian you are learning much.  :) May I suggest one caution. Man generally has a bad habit of looking to man for his help and his wisdom. While it is true that God does send teachers, I have found that we are much safer going to our Bibles and the Spirit of Prophecy for our lessons. God is well able to teach us, if we will come to Him wanting to learn. It is when we look to the writing's of mere mortals that we are in danger of imbibing chaff believing it is pure provender.

I don't make reference to those you are reading for I don't read their books. I cannot comment upon them. I spend my time reading the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy. It has proved to be a great blessing.

Justification and sanctification cannot be separated. Justification occurs when we surrender to Christ and at the same time we receive the character of Christ which is His righteousness. Christ in us produces the fruits of the Spirit. This is sanctification or holiness. The important point to understand is that neither are everlasting and are dependent upon our effort each day to "abide" in Christ. When we take our eyes off of Jesus, we fall. We at that point do not retain justification or sanctification. Jesus stands at the door of the heart knocking, wanting back in.

Sanctification, while being "holy" does not mean that we cannot grow in our sanctification. Many believe this to mean we do not have a perfect motive, but this is not so. Our motives while in Christ are perfect. They are unselfish. It is Christ, not I. But, we may become more perfect in our behaviour and in our strength. Consider this text. Christ learned obedience by the things that He suffered. If Christ could grow in His character, than so can man. "First the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear." Mark 4:28. The Christian is perfect at each stage, as he abides in Jesus.

It is good to find those that seek after truth in an effort to give glory and honor to Christ. Jesus will send the Comforter and He will lead you into all truth.  :)

In His love and grace,      Richard

I'm going home SOON, come along!!

D.B. Thomas

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #96 on: June 12, 2001, 04:25:00 PM »
jherberthompson

Are you saying by some of your above post, that repentence is = to justification; or synonomous with justification?

Richard

Are we any closer to answering the question about whether or not justification is a one time event, or an ongoing thing?       :)

Understandably, they cannot be separated; but what does the Bible tell us about the exact nature of the believer's experience of justification?  Justification is a different Word than sanctification; and so it must have a very particular meaning.       :)

May I offer a few hints from my point of understanding?  Jesus says something that many of us find distasteful:

The Christ of the cross Who justifies, always says as LORD of any person who is justified:

Luke 9:23 “If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.”

The judgement, as portrayed in all it's phases in the Bible, provides evidence of, and witness to, the reality and genuineness of this “following” that Jesus mentions in Luke 9:23, above.

In His dual office of Savior AND Lord; Christ has judged sin at the cross; He justifies the sinner, on the basis of their faith response, and judges the justified, by their works.

The cross is the means by which justification is accomplished for the Christian.

Faith is the means by which justification is accepted by the believer.

Works of righteousness testify to the total reality, and vitality, of the justification of Jesus, in a person’s heart.

The absence of the works of righteousness, indicates a broken relationship with Jesus.

This relationship between justification, and judgement, can be seen better by placing it in the setting of a brief study on the relationship between Christ as my Savior, and Christ as my Lord...That is...the relationship between the GIFT of God, to me, and the CLAIM of God on me.  

We must all be accountable to the question: Is Christ BOTH my Savior and AND My Lord?

I have found that to try an separate God’s gift, from God’s claim, on my heart and on my life, is like trying to segregate Christ as Savior, and Christ as Lord, into two separate entities picking which ever of the two seems best at the moment.

But how can one have Christ only as their Lord, or, only as their Savior? In reality; Christ comes to us as both. That’s who He is. And there is an intimate bond between these two realities.

Now, I have said some interesting things; but where do the Scriptures themselves speak plainly about these things; and tell us clearly, what "justification" is?

And, one last thought, for now: Could it be that God's Gift, is = to our "justification," and that God's Claim is more related to our "sanctification?"

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"For surely, I shall command, and will sift the house of Israel; YET NOT THE SMALLEST GRAIN SHALL FALL TO THE GROUND!"  (Amos 9:9).

D.B. Thomas

[This message has been edited by D.B. Thomas (edited 06-12-2001).]

"I will mention the loving-kindness of the Lord, and the praises of the Lord; according to all that the Lord has bestowed upon us."  (Isa.63:7).
"Let the preciousness, mercy, and glory of Jesus Christ be dwelt upon; for Christ formed within, IS THE HOPE OF GLORY."  (1S.M. pg. 158).

D.B. Thomas


Richard Myers

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #97 on: June 12, 2001, 08:46:00 PM »
I appreciate much of what you say, Brother DB, but I find no basis to try and make a distinction between Christ as Saviour and  Lord. As you say He is both. It is an "evagelical" teaching that allows one to begin to distinguish between Jesus as Saviour and Jesus as Lord. It allows one to sin while being "saved".

Justification is when one obtains eternal life, when one is "justified". This justification for eternal life comes because Christ died in my place AND because I have given my WHOLE heart to Him.  :)

In His love and grace,    Richard

I'm going home SOON, come along!!

D.B. Thomas

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #98 on: June 12, 2001, 09:16:00 PM »
Richard

I agree about that distinction that many try to make.  That's what I am trying to point out.  That it is wrong to make such a distinction.    :)

To All

I am looking for Scripture verses to support and explain "justification."  Any ideas?

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"I will mention the loving-kindness of the Lord, and the praises of the Lord; according to all that the Lord has bestowed upon us."  (Isa.63:7).

D.B. Thomas

[This message has been edited by D.B. Thomas (edited 06-12-2001).]

"I will mention the loving-kindness of the Lord, and the praises of the Lord; according to all that the Lord has bestowed upon us."  (Isa.63:7).
"Let the preciousness, mercy, and glory of Jesus Christ be dwelt upon; for Christ formed within, IS THE HOPE OF GLORY."  (1S.M. pg. 158).

D.B. Thomas


D.B. Thomas

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #99 on: June 12, 2001, 10:54:00 PM »
I'm really excited about this topic; it is good to be exploring the basics, and foundations of our salvation.

I will enclose a few more ideas... :)

In particular, the Savior-hood of Christ is revealed at the cross, where the love of Christ, already manifested during His earthly life, receives it’s climactic expression.  

I have been so excited to see that the Lordship of Jesus, with me, is precisely established through His love for me!  As Lord, Christ rules from the cross!  The self-giving love of Christ, revealed in His life,death, and resurrection,is the very heart of His reign over my mind and my life!  

There is no other principle in the crown of Christ, than in the principle of the cross of Christ.  As one of my favorite Christian writers once put it: “In the cross all influence centres, and from it, all influence goes forth.”  (Man.56, 1899).

To speak of Jesus’ Lordship, is specifically to say that His sacrificial love is meant to prevail over all the earth.  

Therein lies His Lordship.  

My Lord Jesus claims my entire life for His amazing love.  With the inseparable Christ as both my Savior, and my Lord, (these two are inseparable),I can readily see how there is an intimate connection, between what Christ gives to me; and what Christ claims of me.  

My Jesus comes to me in love.  In the Light and strength of His love; my Jesus asks that I be loving.

My Jesus comes to me in mercy.  In the joy and power of His mercy; my Jesus asks that I be merciful.

My Jesus comes to me in forgiveness.  In the great comfort and relief of His forgiveness; my Jesus asks that I be forgiving.

My Jesus comes to me in kindness.  In the inspiration and strength of His kindness; my Jesus asks me to be kind.

My Jesus comes to me in gentleness.  Under the power of the soft touch of His gentleness; my Jesus asks me to be gentle.

My Jesus comes to me in sacrifice.  In the  dauntless example of His sacrifice; my Jesus asks me to live and give sacrificially.

My Jesus comes to me, to be a servant to me; and in His astounding ministry of serving; my Jesus asks me to give a little bit back, by serving at every opportunity.

All that I can do or be as a Christian, is revealed in, and is the product of, what Christ has done for me personally!  (on Calvary).  That’s why I always have a testimony on my lips, of something He has done!   Of what avail that shed blood has had in my heart.  Of who He is to me! (Rev.12:11).  

The wonderful gift of God, that is, the gift of salvation, in His Son, is both the content of Christ’s claim on me, and the strength for me to fulfill His claims!  (justification, sanctification).  There is power in the blood!  There is power in the blood!  

That’s why the Bible assures us that: “nothing can separate us from the love of God.”  (Rom.8:38).  I mean really – how can Calvary ever be undone!

There is no room for anyone to be saved while still knowingly sinning against God or man, with a Lord and Savior who loves us with everything He has got.  

How can His followers do any less?   :)

------------------
"I will mention the loving-kindness of the Lord, and the praises of the Lord; according to all that the Lord has bestowed upon us."  (Isa.63:7).

D.B. Thomas

"I will mention the loving-kindness of the Lord, and the praises of the Lord; according to all that the Lord has bestowed upon us."  (Isa.63:7).
"Let the preciousness, mercy, and glory of Jesus Christ be dwelt upon; for Christ formed within, IS THE HOPE OF GLORY."  (1S.M. pg. 158).

D.B. Thomas