Author Topic: Is the Reformation over?  (Read 15183 times)

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Bill Wennell

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Is the Reformation over?
« on: December 20, 2005, 09:00:00 AM »
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/012/23.71.html

In recent decades, evangelicals and Catholics have come together to face seemingly intractable social problems. Then, in 1994, 20 evangelical and Catholic leaders from North America, including public intellectuals Charles Colson and Richard John Neuhaus, organized an informal discussion group, Evangelicals and Catholics Together (ECT). The group issued a joint declaration, "The Christian Mission in the Third Millennium," which discussed issues such as abortion that evangelicals and Catholics could jointly address.

ECT's endorsers also affirmed certain common tenets of the Christian faith, including (without defining it) justification by faith. Prominent evangelical theologians such as R. C. Sproul complained that Colson had been duped. The Southern Baptist Convention pressured another signatory, Richard Land, to erase his signature. He did.

Theologian J. I. Packer's participation in ECT was most perplexing to some critics. Although a handful of Reformed leaders accused him of high treason, Packer did not back down. He reiterated his belief that "good evangelical Protestants and good Roman Catholics" are Christians. And he argued that the world needs an alliance of devoted believers.

Wheaton College historian Mark Noll and writer Carolyn Nystrom share Packer's spirit of ecumenical charity. The headline-grabbing title of Is the Reformation Over? boldly implies an answer. But the book's subtitle, An Evangelical Assessment of Contemporary Roman Catholicism, suggests its true value. ECT's detractors get little space, but readers will learn much about modern efforts to improve evangelical-Catholic relations. However, they may benefit most from Noll and Nystrom's irenic (and reluctantly critical) exploration of what still divides us.

All About the Church
The authors believe the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965) was a key turning point. They identify four crucial developments. The council (1) referred to some non-Catholics as "brothers," (2) encouraged lay Catholic piety, (3) emphasized Christ's unique role as mediator, and (4) accepted limited blame for inciting the Reformation.

Noll and Nystrom also provide ample descriptions of official Protestant dealings with the Catholic church. Most notably, they detail "The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification," signed by the Lutheran World Federation and Catholic representatives in 1999. They say a key Reformation debate cooled with the declaration's hallmark line: "Our new life is solely due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts as a gift and we receive in faith and never can merit in any way." Critics, however, pointed out that the document papered over significant differences associated with justification, including purgatory, penance, and indulgences.

The justification dialogue also shows the limitation of Noll and Nystrom's main question. How do we know when the Reformation is over? On the one hand, the authors write, "If it is true, as once was repeated frequently by Protestants conscious of their anchorage in Martin Luther or John Calvin that … justification is the article on which the church stands or falls, then the Reformation is over."

But the Reformation also produced a severe disagreement over the nature of the church. Protestants cannot fathom why the Catholic Catechism approvingly quotes Joan of Arc saying, "About Jesus Christ and the church, I simply know they're just one thing, and we shouldn't complicate the matter." Noll and Nystrom say, "In sum, the central difference that continues to separate evangelicals and Catholics is not Scripture, justification by faith, the pope, Mary, the sacraments, or clerical celibacy—though the central difference is reflected in differences on these matters—but the nature of the church."

Indeed, the whole Reformation legacy hinges on the doctrine of the church. Protestants have seen schism as necessary to the church's purification. But Catholics, since Christ and the church are supposedly one, have viewed the Reformation as, in the words of Noll and Nystrom, an "attack on Christ himself."

The Age of Miracles
Is the Reformation Over? assumes that evangelical-Catholic rapprochement is good. So by the time Noll and Nystrom critique Catholic ecclesiology, Marian devotion, and toleration of nominal belief, their concerns are credible. At a time when Time magazine named two Catholics as among America's most influential evangelicals, we need to remember why unity remains elusive.

Evangelism is one perennial sticking point. Catholics have for years decried evangelical "sheep stealing" in Latin America. Evangelicals, in turn, say nominal and syncretistic Catholicism justifies their outreach. ECT stepped in and called for an end to proselytizing among "active adherents of another Christian community."

Noll and Nystrom examine official ecumenical dialogues on proselytism, especially between Catholics and Baptists. However, this academic analysis is inherently limited because many evangelicals care less about what the Catholic church teaches than about how Catholics act. Nominal, disaffected Catholics have been among evangelicalism's most fruitful mission fields. Going forward, evangelicals will watch closely to see if Pope Benedict XVI can encourage deeper discipleship and piety among Catholics.

As in international diplomacy, common enemies can make for potent allies in religion. Noll and Nystrom write, "Differences on basic Christian convictions between Catholics and evangelicals fade away as if to nothing when compared to secular affirmations about the nature of humanity and the world." No one illustrates their point better than Pope John Paul II, who died shortly after they finished the book. His advocacy for democracy, orthodox theology, and the "culture of life" won many evangelical admirers. His personal integrity built a new level of trust among evangelicals staunchly opposed to his office.

One wonders, though, how much the common opposition to secularism and theological liberalism can conceal. John Paul II also practiced intense Marian devotion. And it is tough to square Pope Benedict XVI's recent offer of indulgences with the statements on justification that Catholics agreed to with the Lutheran World Federation and in ECT.

The uproar a decade ago over ECT was significant, but not new. "We should confront each other not as representatives of the same faith, but as representatives of quite different faiths," Methodist minister C. Stanley Lowell wrote in CT in 1960. "Protestants should confront Roman Catholics in dialogue much as they would confront Jews."

That's why Noll and Nystrom argue that the visible theological and political cooperation of leading evangelicals and Catholics shows that times have changed. "The growing recognition of how deep and firm such common doctrinal affirmations are represents a great historical reversal," Noll and Nystrom write. They cite shared doctrines including the Trinity, original sin, and the Holy Spirit's power to transform. "Although agreement on foundational Christian teachings has always been present … only in recent decades have the depth and significance of these doctrinal affirmations been visible. This alteration of perspective should indicate to anyone of a historical cast of mind that we still live in the age of miracles."

So is the Reformation over? Eyeing the serious differences that remain, Noll and Nystrom are not prepared to go that far. But they do explain why the question is now on the table.


------------------
Bill Wennell
USDA Meat & Poultry Inspector
BiblicalTruths2000@Juno.com

Bill Wennell<BR>Medical-missionary Brazil<BR>BiblicalTruths2000@Juno.com

Richard Myers

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Is the Reformation over?
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2005, 12:52:00 PM »
Freedom of conscience, the Bible and the Bible  only, and justification by faith were the foundation principles of protest against a church that denied the foundation of Chrisitianity. One has to ask if this has changed and the answer is no. Then we must ask another very important question. Is it Protestantism" that has changed?
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

knightwithdignity

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Is the Reformation over?
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2006, 01:44:00 PM »
Since 1994 there have been major developments in the ecumenical movement.

Mainline churches are making agreements between themselves and with rome.

In 1999 a major agreement was signed between the Lutheran Church and the Roman Catholic Church.  This has been seen by some as the biggest sign that the reformation is indeed over.  

Since then, other churches are looking to make agreements with rome by signing this same 1999 agreement.

The new Pope has declared that he will continue to push for progress in ecumenicalism.

In 2007 there will be a major meeting of the main churches with Rome.  

One would not be surprised to see some major agreement being produced from this meeting.


Mike Vance

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Is the Reformation over?
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2006, 06:32:00 PM »
The most pointed indicator that the reformation is over is that you can talk to most "protestant" (haha) Christians and explain to them point blank that the horn of Daniel with the eyes and boastful mouth is the Papacy, and that the eyes indicate one that claims to be a "seer", one that knows spiritual matters -- and that does not make them even blink.  You can explain to them every little detail in both Daniel and the Revelation and they just yawn.  It is so twisted that to this day "protestant" Christians are awaiting some bad guy coming out of Rome after the Rapture, just as the Jews still await a Messiah that came long ago.  They are so blind.
"He who trusts in himself is a fool" (Proverbs 28:26)

Richard Sherwin

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Is the Reformation over?
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2006, 06:49:00 PM »
Good thing we are never blind  ;)

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ren

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Is the Reformation over?
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2006, 08:13:00 AM »
God can use one single soul to bring all of Babylon to its knee's. So, as long as there are people like those on this forum who keep sounding the Loud Cry, the reformation will still be alive!

~Ren

[This message has been edited by ren (edited 01-30-2006).]


Richard Sherwin

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Is the Reformation over?
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2006, 01:44:00 PM »
Amen Ren (wow, I'm a poet)

Br. S

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Mimi

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Re: Is the Reformation over?
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2008, 05:59:44 PM »
Bringing current. I believe this is a subject we should keep in the forefront of discussions. 
  For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. Psalm 119:89 

Wally

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Re: Is the Reformation over?
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2008, 04:00:51 AM »
If you've never watched it, Stephen Bohr has an excellent sermon, entitled, "Protestants Are No More."  It lays it out pretty well, and one would have to have head their head in the sand for past 30 years to not recognize the demise of Protestantism.
So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants:  we have done that which was our duty to do.  Luke 17:10

Mimi

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Re: Is the Reformation over?
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2008, 06:34:49 AM »
His series on this is so good! A "Thus saith the Lord" is not to be set aside for a "Thus saith the church" or a "Thus saith the state." The crown of Christ is to be lifted above the diadems of earthly potentates and people have forgotten that.
  For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. Psalm 119:89 

Mimi

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Re: Is the Reformation over?
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2008, 07:50:44 AM »
It is so refreshing and hopeful when we locate some true Protestants in the world. I recently ran across this comment on a Reformation blog:



Quote
We have neither an adequate conception of the
evils from which the Reformation freed us--nor
of the enormous good which it brought in.

In the days when the Roman Catholic Church ruled
England--he who desired to obtain forgiveness of
his sins--had to seek it through a jungle of . . .

priests,
saints,
Mary-worship,
masses,
penances,
confessions,
absolution,
and the like!

This huge mass of rubbish was shoveled
out of the way by the Reformers. They taught
that justification was by faith alone, and that
every heavy-laden sinner on earth had a right
to go straight to the Lord Jesus Christ for
remission of sins--without waiting for Pope
or priest, confession or absolution, masses or
extreme unction. From that time, the backbone
of English Popery was broken!

The Reformation found Englishmen steeped
in ignorance--and left them in possession of
knowledge. It found them blind--and left
them seeing.

It found them without Bibles--and left them
with a Bible in every parish.

It found them priest-ridden--and left them
enjoying the liberty which Christ bestows.

It found them strangers to saving faith, and
grace, and holiness--and left them with the
key to those things in their hands.

It found them slaves--and left them free.

  For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. Psalm 119:89 

Larry Lyons

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Re: Is the Reformation over?
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2008, 12:58:42 PM »
Sybil, that is a very interesting statement. It is sadly ironic that in the light of those facts the Anglican Church has either officially returned to Rome or is in the process of doing so.

Mimi

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Re: Is the Reformation over?
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2008, 02:10:38 PM »
Yes they are. Very interesting, isn't it? Her daughters are visiting with their "mother" - making moves to return home. Very interesting, indeed - yet there are groups out there who hold the spirit of the Reformation dear to them. I enjoyed locating this man's comments.
  For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. Psalm 119:89 

Mimi

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Re: Is the Reformation over?
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2008, 01:50:45 PM »
Occasionally I will receive some interesting information on how the Protestants are continuing to address the Reformation. This article is particularly noteworthy in that they not only address the RCC but also the Emergent Church and Rick Warren, Willard, et al. Many churches are discovering the inroads of this strange movement and linking it directly to the RCC:

http://reformata.org/2008/11/roman-catholicism-will-the-pope-do/
  For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. Psalm 119:89 

RickH

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Is the Reformation over?
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2008, 10:31:48 AM »
It seems that the churches of the Reformation have slowly faded and now drift, some like the Methodist are progressing but not forward...

"...a high-level delegation from the World Methodist Council was in Rome for a series of meetings and events, culminating in an audience... with Benedict XVI.

"I sat down Friday afternoon with His Eminence Sunday Mbang, a Nigerian and chairperson of the council, which represents some 70 million Methodists worldwide, and with Geoffrey Wainwright of Duke University, co-chair of the Catholic/Methodist dialogue....

"I asked Wainwright, playing off the provocative title of one of his own books alongside a similar recent volume by Mark Knoll and Carolyn Nystrom, 'Is the Reformation over?'

"'The decree on justification puts us well on the way to settling it,' Wainwright responded, referring to the 1999 agreement between the Vatican and the Lutheran World Federation declaring that the two groups were in substantial agreement on the core dividing issue of the Reformation, even if both sides understand that agreement in slightly different ways...."

http://www.nationalcatholicreporter.org/word/word120905.htm#seven


"Benedict XVI highlighted the progress in dialogue between Catholics and Methodists in recent decades.

"The Pope made that point when receiving a delegation of the World Methodist Council in audience today. The delegation was headed by the president of the council, Bishop Sunday Mbang of the Methodist Church of Nigeria, and included the secretary-general, the Reverend George Freeman of the United States....

"The Holy Father added:'I have been encouraged by the initiative which would bring the member churches of the World Methodist Council into association with the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, signed by the Catholic Church and the Lutheran World Federation in 1999.'

"The World Methodist Council embraces 76 Methodist communions. At its next general assembly, in July, it is expected to approve this declaration."

http://www.zenit.org/article-14779?l=english

Lewis

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Re: Is the Reformation over?
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2008, 10:44:15 AM »
We have a topic titled "Is the reformation over?" Here

Mimi

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Re: Is the Reformation over?
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2008, 10:52:47 AM »
Thanks, Lewis. The topic was merged with the existing one.

Rick - please search on a topic you want to begin to see if one already exists before beginning a new one. Thanks!
  For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. Psalm 119:89 

Mimi

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Re: Is the Reformation over?
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2009, 04:11:00 PM »
We know The Reformation is not over and continues in venues visible and invisible. There are many living in these times who know nothing of The Reformation of the 16th century except that it happened. JimB was kind enough to forward to me the book, "History of the Reformation of the Sixteenth Century" by D'Aubigne. Every spiritually minded person should own that book - and read it. Now I have two reading projects this year - both are monumental.

We have nothing to fear for the future, except as we shall forget the way the Lord has led us, and His teaching in our past history. {CET 204.1}

In history and prophecy the Word of God portrays the long, continued conflict between truth and error. That conflict is yet in progress. Those things that have been will be repeated. Old controversies will be revived, and new theories will be continually arising. {CTr 341.2}



Does this generation know how it began and why it continues? We have church members who do not know what The Reformation was and that it continues to this day through the remnant church.

A monk spoke, changing the world forever.

  For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. Psalm 119:89 

Vicki

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Re: Is the Reformation over?
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2009, 11:37:58 AM »
JimB was kind enough to forward to me the book, "History of the Reformation of the Sixteenth Century" by D'Aubigne. Every spiritually minded person should own that book - and read it. Now I have two reading projects this year - both are monumental.

I have that book on my shelf. Maybe after the first frost (31 days away) there will be more time to devote to reading and getting through it before the last frost (May 10.) Hmmm. That's 203 days for 20 Book sections listed in the contents that totaled 232 chapters - of tiny print. After reading the 1st Preface & starting on the 2nd one last night I know I will be referring to the dictionary often.  ::)

Can we do it?   ???  :o Yes we can!  :D ;) :)

(I also have Wylie's 2 volume History of Protestantism and Martyr's Mirror that remain unread - don't go there yet! :-X)

Mimi

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Re: Is the Reformation over?
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2009, 12:08:20 PM »
You have the spirit, good sister!  ;)

Thus far, I have made it to page 25 without wrecking my eyesight or wrists in holding that heavy book. So I searched for a solution: read on the fainting couch by a very brightly lit window and sit in such a way that the book can rest on my body.

Oh! My father-in-law left us a page magnifier! Off to find it!   
  For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. Psalm 119:89