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Study => Bread of Life => Topic started by: ian rankin on June 16, 2004, 09:19:00 AM

Title: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on June 16, 2004, 09:19:00 AM
As Adventists we are uniquely placed to understand and respond to end time events.
However I find that people are often confused in their understanding of the difference between the experience God offered an old covenant believer and what He offers a new covenant believer.
There is only one plan of salvation, but it is a progressive series of God's acts whereby He steps into human history to bring about the end of sin. As His plan is progressively implemented it brings changes in the experience of His followers.
Old Testament Israel was a tightly knit ethnic group. The church is composed of individuals from all races. Israel had a country, a temple, the presences of God, a divinely appointed ruler and a priesthood who mediated between them and God.
Christians have no country or material temple. Christ is the head of the church and the only mediator between God and man. The Holy Spirit is its leader.
Israelites were promised, health, prosperity and protection from their enemies. Their nation would become the chief nation of the world and all people would come to Jerusalem to whorship the God of the Israelites.
The outstanding promise to Christians is that no man can take away their saving relationship to God, but they are warned that they will be hated of all men. They are promised persecution, betrayal and death.
There are some Christians who want priests to be the mediators between them and God and leaderrs who have the responsibility for making decisions for them.
Pentecost and the coming of the fullness of the Holy Spirit changed radically the experience of the follower of God.
The gifts of the Holy Spirit include leadership, but make clear that every gift is essential and irrelevant on its own.
Whereas Israel's history reflected the spiritual comndition of its leaders, the letters to the seven church make no mention of leaders, they are addressed to the individual
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Sister Marie on June 16, 2004, 09:11:00 PM
Good points. However in the leaders of the churches I would like to say one thing. At the beginning of each message to each church it says: "Unto the Angel of the Church of.." As in Rev. 2:1. When we use the Strongs Concordance we see that there are several meaning here. One is human. That this could very possibility saying: "Unto the Pastor/leader of the Church of...." which would really make sense. If this reasoning is correct then it does indeed mention the leaders of each Church.

------------------
With Christian Love,
Sister Marie

Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on June 16, 2004, 10:38:00 PM
There indeed is a change in the "covenant experience" with the death of Christ.  A new way was opened into the Most Holy Place. No longer would sinful man need a human priest as an intercessor.

Great subject Brother Ian!

You say "Whereas Israel's history reflected the spiritual condition of its leaders, the letters to the seven church make no mention of leaders, they are addressed to the individual."

This is an interesting observation. Could it be that God knew that the age old problem would continue to vex the church? While a new way was opened, as you said, God still provided leaders. There are still pastors and teachers, elders and deacons. I am reminded that seldom will a church rise higher than it's pastor.

While the "New Covenant" Christian ought to respect the position of deacon, elder, and pastor, he ought not allow the leader to step in between him and Christ.

Good food for thought and study, Brother Ian. Let us continue our study of this important topic.

Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on June 18, 2004, 09:39:00 AM
Sister Marie,
Thank you for your response. I too wonder about the identity of the 'angel' of each church.
Literally it means 'messenger'and while I don't rule out the application to 'leader', to me it just doen't seem to fit inasmuch as each message is a call to the individual member to become an overcomer.
There is no question that God designs for there to be leadership and that leadership is vested in the Holy Spirit. The question is, what is the role of Holy Spirit delegated leadership in the new covenant? I have not seen an adequate job description produced by the church. I guess this is understandable when you recognise that all the job descriptions are produced by those in leadership roles.
Gifts of leadership are gifts of the Holy Spirit and their purpose is to work together with all the other gifts to build up the body of Christ.
This is not talking about size of the body in numbers but about its growing in the knowledge of the Son of God and to the fullness of the stature of Christ. Eph 4.
Satan's counterfeit has been to produce a church that functions through a hierachy that claims to speak for God.
God bless
Ian
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on June 18, 2004, 09:57:00 AM
Bro Richard,
Thank you for your response.
As you say, under the new covenant we have only one mediator, the Man Christ Jesus.
We have direct acccess into the presence of God.
The old covenant was with the nation, access was through mediation of the priests.
The new covenant is not with the church, it is with the individual believer who through the Holy Spirit has become a divine/human being. 1Cor 3:16. 6:19. In Christ we are sons and daugters of God, joint heirs with Christ.
Being human, we need leadership, but being Christians we have to learn to surrender self as a part of the body of Christ, each part dependant on the functioning of every other part. As I mentioned in my post to Sis Marie, I fell that as a church we lack an adequate job decscription of leader and proper key performance indicators, not just for leaders but for every gift of the Spirit.
God bless,
Ian
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on June 18, 2004, 12:40:00 PM
Amen, Brother Ian!  God has given to each of us a part to play and in order to do that we need the Holy Spirit dwelling within! Hope you are having a blessed Sabbath! Soon we shall be resting also.  :)
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on June 23, 2004, 07:19:00 AM
What could we say is a proper job description for a leader?
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Ele Holmes on June 23, 2004, 08:28:00 AM
Ian, What an interesting subject, to be studied by all....Richard, the first job of any converted leader is to perform all God's work in a Christlike mannor, walking in His footsteps.... Ellen White  gives her opinion, while she was in Europe.  

Her contacts with the European leader through the years were occacional. However, she was well acquainted with his work and esteemed him as a church leader.  For example, while preaching at the General Conference session in 1901, which Conradi attended, she mentioned him by anme publicly....Here are her very words:

"Brother Conradi has carried a very heavy burden of work in Europe.  Brother Conradi, God wants you to have laborers to stand with you, and He wants you to give them all the encouragement you can.  He wants the work you are doing to go with strength and with power.

"You have been doing the work of several men.  God has greatly blessed your labors.  The angels of God have done this work, not Brother Conradi.  He has opened doors for the angels, and they have entered.  And if you will all open doors for the angels and give God opportunity to work, let me tell you that He will set in operation that which will carry forward the work with a strength you do not dream of."

Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on June 23, 2004, 09:23:00 AM
Hi Richard,
That is a good question you ask, 'what is the job description for a leader?
Probably the most challenging and important question any church can address, for whatever is decided as the answer, reaches down to apply to every member. I say this, remembering that we are all members of a royal priesthood, a holy nation.
Well I don't have any pat answer, but I will try to define some principles that I believe must guide any attempt to provide an answer to your question.

1. A proper description for a leader must be derived from the Bible and not from world business practices. Jesus is the world's example of a perfect leader.
  b. The church is the body of Christ and each part functions to its potential only as every part participates. The gifts of the Spirit identify a memeber's function, they sre never a measure of a person's  importance.
  c. The Holy Spirit is the leader and He never exults Himself, He only works to glorify Christ. He wants our commitment, not our contribution. The test of any true gift will be that its possessor's acts always glorify Christ. This does not allow for a person to give God the glory but take the credit for themselves.
  d. Eph 3:11-16. The gifts of the Spirit are for the building up of the body - for the equipping of the saints. A true leader will never use his followers. He will use himself up to enable them to achieve their potential
  e. A true leader takes responsibility for the mistakes of those under him. He supports, encourages, represents. In my years in the ministry I longed for someone who would listen. Not tell me what to do, but enable and challenge me to clarify my goals and evaluate the results of my efforts.

Having some clear, nice sounding goals is good, but more important are clear Key Performance Indicators.
If leaders have no clearly stated KPIs then the whole organisation will be floundering.

I know of no better source of KPIs than Ephesians 3:11-16  
  a. Is the church growing in the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ?
  b.Are the members growing in awareness and practice of the gifts of the Spirit.
  c.Is the church growing in unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God?
  d. Is the whole body building itself up in love.

Christ's Object Lessons p69 sums it up when it says that when the image of Christ is perfectly reproduced in His people(the body) then He will return.
The preaching of the gospel in all the world is not a KPI, it is a by-product of true KPIs.

I hope all this rambling makes some sense, or at least helps to stimulate our thinking about this vital topic?
God bless
Ian

Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on January 03, 2008, 12:42:05 PM
Yes, dear brother, it not only makes sense, but it is truth. It is founded in the new covenant experience, Christ in us the hope of glory!
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on October 17, 2009, 03:39:50 PM
I would like to continue this discussion as it is an important subject. It is mis-taught both by those of our faith and also by those who claim the law is no longer binding.

When we consider the typical interpretation that we have heard so often, we find that it does not address the Scripture properly. Let me ask two questions and see if you have a ready answer.

"But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises."  Heb. 8:6.

What is the "better" covenant? And what are the "better" promises? Do you really think we have addressed this correctly? Use your common sense along with the Holy Spirit. If you do not have an answer that is fine, but please do not rely upon what you have heard in the past, if it does not fit. What is the answer to these two questions?
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Mimi on October 19, 2009, 09:07:41 PM
Quote
What is the "better" covenant? And what are the "better" promises?

The answers are simple, but not so simple when explaining to those who want to do away with the law of God and say the "old covenant" was faulty. The "old covenant" was brief: "Obey and live." Read Paul's 2 Corinthians 3:6-11 and completely digest it. I'm still trying! Then try on Hebrews 8 to see what is really being discussed. In Corinthians, it appears Paul is saying the law is on one side and Christ's merits on the other. No one can keep the law outside of Christ. (Paul can be very difficult to understand without the Holy Spirit's help, too!)

Hebrews 8 tells of the "new covenant" which really boils down to the Everlasting Covenant made with Adam and extends down to our day. It is righteousness by faith in the merits of Jesus that enables us to keep the law of God. That is a better promise made through a better ministry of our most excellent High Priest. Adam had that all along. So did Noah and Abraham. We have it today.

Someone else summed it up much better:

:[The Old Covenant: Obey and Live] "If a man do, he shall even live in them" (Ezekiel 20:11; Leviticus 18:5); but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them." Deuteronomy 27:26. The "new covenant" was established upon "better promises"--the promise of forgiveness of sins and of the grace of God to renew the heart and bring it into harmony with the principles of God's law. "This shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts. . . . I will forgive their iniquity, and will remember their sin no more." Jeremiah 31:33, 34.  {PP 372.1} 

     The same law that was engraved upon the tables of stone is written by the Holy Spirit upon the tables of the heart. Instead of going about to establish our own righteousness we accept the righteousness of Christ. His blood atones for our sins. His obedience is accepted for us. Then the heart renewed by the Holy Spirit will bring forth "the fruits of the Spirit." Through the grace of Christ we shall live in obedience to the law of God written upon our hearts. Having the Spirit of Christ, we shall walk even as He walked. Through the prophet He declared of Himself, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalm 40:8. And when among men He said, "The Father hath not left Me alone; for I do always those things that please Him." John 8:29. {PP 372.2}


Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on October 19, 2009, 09:49:41 PM
Better promises, indeed! Very good.  The promise under the new covenant was that God would write His law (ten commandments) on our heart. That seems to be a much better promise than was given at Sinai under the old covenant. What was promised then?

Now, Paul says that the old covenant was faulty. How was it faulty? The law is not faulty, is it? Then what was faulty about the old covenant? Yes, the people were faulty, but the question is not who was faulty, but what was faulty about the covenant, the agreement?  

Another question. Was the old covenant exactly like the everlasting covenant? If not, how was it different? We have a lot of Bible teachers in this fellowship. Let's hear from some of them as to the difference between the everlasting covenant and the old covenant. We are attempting to stretch our minds a little so that we are not left believing an untruth.
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on October 20, 2009, 01:11:20 PM
Hi Richard,
Thanks for your invitation to start thinking again about the question of Old and New covenant.
I think this question challenges us on every level.
I guess to really start to understand things we have to understand first what the sanctuary represented
For example, there was no sacrifice to atone for wilful, deliberate commandment breaking. See Psalm 51.
There is only one plan and one way of salvation - Jesus Christ the Lamb of God.
The New Covenant is not a new way of salvation - it is not a replacement of the Old Covenant, it is the fulfulment of the Old Covenant.
It was promised to Israel.
The first New Covenanrt believers, the first Christians, were the faithful remnant of Israel.
They had real problems finding their feet as New Covenant believers. For example, at the Jerusalem Council, were they rejected cicumcision as the mark of the true believer.
Today we as a church still struggle with our cultural beliefs coming into confilct with our acceptance that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are gender-neutral.
God bless,
Ian
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on October 20, 2009, 01:22:11 PM
Welcome back, dear brother!

You have given us a lot to think about. While I am digesting your post, can you explain your understanding of the the difference between the old covenant and the everlasting covenant? I think this will go a long way in helping us understand what the old covenant was.
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on October 21, 2009, 01:04:55 PM
Hi Richard,
To my understanding the Everlasting Covenant is God's provision in Jesus, the Lamb of God slain before the foundation of the world. Before He created mankind God had provided for the redemption of mankind.
That redemption though is a process, promised in Gen 3:15, acted on in Gen 4:4, fleshed out at Sinai in the establishment of the Old Covenant. There the full series of the seven acts by which God would step into human history where acted out in the seven annual feasts of the sanctuary.
At Calvary the first and foundational act became reality and God's followers moved into the New Covenant experience with the restoration at Pentecost of the promised fullness of the Holy Spirit.
God bless,
Ian
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Mimi on October 21, 2009, 01:22:42 PM
That is sensible. The unfolding of this, as you described, Brother Ian, is confirmed by Inspiration.
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Mimi on October 21, 2009, 01:26:06 PM
Question, Brother Ian: Have you created a chronology of the covenants, major ones and minor as well?
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on October 21, 2009, 10:37:03 PM
Brother Ian, was there a difference between the agreement made at Sinai and that made with Abraham?
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on October 22, 2009, 02:43:46 PM
Hi Sybil,
The question about a chronology of the covenants puzzles me somewhat. The prophecies of Daniel give times for the fulfilment of the acts of God symbolized in the annual sanctuary feasts. Jeremiah gives the promise of a new covenant. Daniel 9 limits the time available for Israel, which I suppose could be seen as the limit of the Old Covenant?
Hebrews 8-9 is very specific about the first covenant becoming obsolete and being replaced by the more excellent ministry of Christ.
There is a chronology of the plan of salvation, but I wonder if it an answerable question to seek a chronology of the covenants. Amost they are a means, not an entity, not to be compared to the plan of salvation.
Sorry, this is all a bit vague.
Ian
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Mimi on October 22, 2009, 02:57:09 PM
Yes, I was reading Jeremiah 31 today. With a renewed interest in the covenants, my simple mind was reduced to linear thoughts and wondered about a chronology until it got complex. I appreciate your comments. 
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on October 22, 2009, 03:11:52 PM
Hi Richard ,
You ask, is there a difference the Abraham and Sinai agreement?
Short answer, yes.
Briefly, the Abraham agreement was God's response, His unconditional commitment in response to Abraham's faithfulness. Gen 22:16.
The Sinai agreement was a promise of what could be if the people were faithful. I am reminded of a sign I used to see in the dockyard when I was in the navy. It read, 'Even the worst of us can serve as a horrible example'.
Gal 3:23-4:7 does not say that Christians are the inheritors of the Old Covenant promises, it says that if we belong to Christ we are Abrahams seed and heirs. Sons of God, not sons of Jacob.
Regards
Ian
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Mimi on October 22, 2009, 04:38:55 PM
Another compact--called in Scripture the "old" covenant--was formed between God and Israel at Sinai, and was then ratified by the blood of a sacrifice. The Abrahamic covenant was ratified by the blood of Christ, and it is called the "second," or "new," covenant, because the blood by which it was sealed was shed after the blood of the first covenant. That the new covenant was valid in the days of Abraham is evident from the fact that it was then confirmed both by the promise and by the oath of God--the "two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie." Hebrews 6:18.  {PP 371.1}

Notice Inspiration calls the old covenant formed between God and Israel at Sinai ratified by the blood of "A" sacrifice, not THE sacrifice. The time was not yet fulfilled for THE sacrifice. Hebrews 9:10 says "Which stood only in meats and drinks, and diverse washings and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of the reformation."  Imposed as a tool to instruct what is to come. The next verse says what that is: Christ comes as a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building ... then we come to the famous Hebrews 9:12 verse, "Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us."

In Hebrews Paul calls the old covenant faulty. He was speaking to Jews still practicing the old sacrificial system, explaining to them that the rites within that system were created to point them to Christ, the Lamb of God who would be slain. A huge part of me wants to say no part of a covenant God would make with anyone could be faulty - it would have a purpose, but never faulty; however, the sacrifices they were making could not save them but pointed to the ultimate sacrifice of One who could. Therein, I can see the old covenant faulty, yet highly instructional in every way, and therefore the need for the New Covenant - Christ's blood.

The Israelites could not keep the Law of God on their own, but by faith through the merits of Jesus' sacrifice, they could. Hebrews 7:19 confirms this - "For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God."  

I realize this is most simplistic. I am obviously wading my way through Hebrews and Paul, the inspired intellectual! Someone once said if Paul were to have a PhD dissertation, Hebrews would be it!

Is this your understanding, Ian or Richard or anyone with a solid knowledge of this subject, or am I headed in the wrong direction?

 
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on October 22, 2009, 10:00:37 PM
Paul's writings are not easy. We are not dealing with milk, but rather meat.

It appears to me that you, dear sister, are moving in the right direction. The old covenant was not as good as the new covenant. And the new covenant was in force during the old covenant because the new covenant was the everlasting covenant. The new covenant did not begin at the ascension of Christ, as I understand it. The everlasting covenant was the better covenant, established upon better promises. And we know that the Abrahamic covenant was ratified by the blood of Christ and the old covenant was not.  Yes, I know it is difficult, but we can do it.  We will be learning for eternity by God's grace.  So, we are getting some practice.  :)

What were the better promises Paul speaks of in Hebrews? And why were the promises made in the old covenant not as good? And what necessitated the giving of the old covenant since the everlasting covenant was already in existence? And, for that matter why was the new covenant made when the everlasting covenant was already in existence? Paul was speaking to the Hebrews, did they not already have the promises under the everlasting covenant? They were the children of Abraham and the children of Adam. Was the everlasting covenant rescinded for them?

So many questions.  :)

Thank you, Brother Ian. Such an important topic you have begun!
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on October 24, 2009, 12:45:18 AM
Hi Richard,
You ask about a difference between the covenant at Sinai and the covenant with Abraham.
I believe there is a difference, perhaps it could be said that the difference was more in results than in promises.
The covenant at Sinai was an invitation which the people accepted, but which they hopelessly failed to honour. It was an invitation to become a part of God's means of extending an understanding of the everlasting covenant and an invitation to recieve its blessings. Their failure did not affect the everlasting covenant, but it affected their experience. The Jew still lives in hope of enjoying the promises made to their ancestors.
The covenant with Abraham was God's response to Abraham's faithfulness. Gen 22:12-18 is God's unconditional, covenant commitment in response to Abraham's faithfulness. 'Now I know that I can trust you'.
Gal 3:23 -4:7. Note 3:29 we, as new covenant believers are sons and daughters of Abraham, not Israel.
The new covenant does not replace either the Sinai covenant or the Abrahamic covenant, it fulfills them.
There is only one way of salvation, the everlasting covenant, but as Heb 1:1-2 says, God has spoken in many portions and ways, but now has spoken fully and completely in the Son.
Regards,
Ian Rankin
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on October 25, 2009, 10:12:12 PM
Hi,
I think there are some fundamental points to any discussion of salvation and Bible covenants.
1. There is and ever has been, only one way of salvation and that is through faith in Jesus, the Lamb of God. Gen:3:15  John 1:29 Eph 2:8. Gal 3:20
2. The plan of salvation is a process implemented by God, through seven acts by which He steps into human history and finally completely removes sin from the universe.
The seven annual feasts of the sanctuary(Leviticus 16 and 23) were a promise and object lesson of the plan of salvation
The prophesies of Daniel give an unconditional time-line from the first act of God, Calvary, to the fifth, the commencement of the Day of Atonement, but no man knows the day and hour of the second coming of Jesus.

God invites mankind to be involved.
The Old Covenant and New Covenant result from the progressive fulfilment of the plan of salvation. They are invitations to serve God. They are not ways of salvation; they are invitations to become involved as God progressively  reveals His power and character.

In the Old Testament times the issue was who is the most powerful god? Ex 5: 2 Pharaoh’s challenge was, ‘Who is the Lord that I should obey His voice?’ 
God’s plan for Israel, His people, was that they would become the chief nation of earth and through their witness prepare the world for the coming of Jesus.

Because of the unfaithfulness of the nation, only a faithful remnant entered into the increased privileges and responsibilities of the promised New Covenant.

The New Covenant is God’s invitation to become a witness to the revelation of His character. Ephesians 4:11-16 states that God’s plan is for us to grow up into the fullness of the stature of Christ. Each individual, as gifted by the Holy Spirit, contributing to the building up of the body (the church) in love and by their witness, to leave no person unwarned at the second coming of Jesus.

 God bless,
Ian Rankin



Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on October 26, 2009, 12:21:49 PM
Again, dear brother, you present much. Enough to feed upon for many days!  I look forward to seeing the feast days associated with the plan of salvation. Very interesting.

Can you share with us what the agreement was that God made in the old covenant and what the agreement was in the new covenant.
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on October 26, 2009, 01:31:14 PM
Hi Richard
You comment 'I look forward to seeing the feast days associated with the plan of salvation. Very interesting'.
There were seven annual feasts as outlined in Lev 23 and an expansion of the Day of Atonement in lev 16

The feasts are, very briefly started:-

Passover - first month -fulfilled in the death of Jesus- 1 Cor 5:7 - foundation of the plan of salvation - 490 year prophecy of Dan 9

Unleavenbed bread - sinlessness of Christ

First fruits - resurrection of Jesus -1Cor 15:20, 23

Pentecost - the gift of the fulness of the Holy Spirit - confirmation of Jesus' acceptance and glorification. Acts 2:33, 38 Inauguration of the New Covenant

The first four feasts took place at the begiining of the year, then there was a long gap before the last three feasts. The seed is sown at the early rain, the church is established and then there is a long growing period till the latter rain and harvest.

Trumpets - the seventh month -the warning to get ready for the Day of Atonement - the revival of late seventeen hunmdreds and early eighteen hundreds- expectation of second coming -1260 prophecy of Dan 7

Day of Atonement -1844

Tabernacles - annual holiday period after the harvest - second coming

God bless,
Ian
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on October 29, 2009, 08:16:48 AM
Very nice!    Thank you.   Yes, the sanctuary and its services all were to teach the plan of salvation.

I do have another question. You mention the inauguration of the New Covenant.  This is a new concept to me. It has come up in another discussion about the covenants.  While I can understand that Paul makes a distinction between the old and new covenants, there were always the provisions of the new covenant from the first promise of a Saviour made to Adam. All have been saved under its provisions. So, why the importance of an inauguration for the new covenant?  King David claimed the promises under the everlasting covenant. The blood of Jesus ratified that agreement, did it not? A proper understanding of the covenants would lead us to believe that the everlasting covenant contained the same provisions as the new covenant. This is to say that the new covenant was not a "better covenant, established upon better promises." It was only a re-stating of the everlasting covenant which contains the very same promises.

Help me to understand why the new covenant needed an inauguration.
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on October 30, 2009, 01:04:02 AM
Hi Richard,
I sympathise with your question, as it is a continuing part of  my experience as I have wondered about the relationship between the various covenants.
In my attempts answer your questions I am seeing new relationships.

Your question is 'A proper understanding of the covenants would lead us to believe that the everlasting covenant contained the same provisions as the new covenant. This is to say that the new covenant was not a "better covenant, established upon better promises. It was only a re-stating of the everlasting covenant which contains the very same promises. “
“Help me to understand why the new covenant needed an inauguration'

As a starting point of discussion, I emphatically contend that the Old Covenant and New Covenant are not different ways of salvation.
They are different experiences brought about by the progressive stages of the re-establishment of the relationship between God and mankind. See Galatians 3:23—4:7.

You can compare the Old and New covenants, but trying to compare them with the Everlasting covenant is like comparing apples and oranges.
The Everlasting covenant and the seven feasts of the sanctuary go together. They are unconditional declarations of God.

A simple, bordering on simplistic way to express this would be:-

Old Covenant – from Sinai to Pentecost. At Sinai God explicitly sets forth the privileges and responsibilities of being God’s chosen people. It is a part fulfilment of the Abrahamic covenant whereby Abraham’s descendants as a nation are given explicit privileges and responsibilities, while still ‘children’, ‘under-age heirs’.
God dwell with them

New Covenant – from Pentecost to the new earth.(see Heb 8:11). A new relationship – adult sons and daughters of God – joint heirs with Christ.. (See Galatians 3:23 – 4:7)
It is a covenant with Israel. Not a replacement of the Old Covenant, but the fulfilment of it. The faithful remnant of Israel became the first Christians.
God dwells in them

You ask, ‘Help me to understand why the new covenant needed an inauguration'
John 14:16-17. 26 ‘The Spirit was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified’
Acts 2:33 ‘ having been exalted’  ‘having received’ ‘He has poured forth’
The inauguration of the New Covenant was confirmation that Jesus has triumphed over Satan.
I hope these thoughts help????
God bless,
Ian
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on October 30, 2009, 11:09:01 AM
Brother Ian, thank you for your explanation. Where I am having difficulty is with the need to "inaugurate" the new covenant when the everlasting covenant was already in operation. I guess I do not see a difference between the everlasting agreement made with Adam and the agreement that Paul calls the New Covenant.

"Thus will be realized the complete fulfillment of the new-covenant promise, “I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” “In those days, and in that time, saith the Lord, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found.” [Jeremiah 31:34; 50:20.] “In that day shall the branch of the Lord be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem.” [Isaiah 4:2,3.] GC88 485

Is this not the everlasting covenant. I do not see a better covenant or better promises when comparing the everlasting covenant with the new covenant. When Paul spoke of a "better covenant established upon better promises" he was comparing the Old covenant to the New Covenant, not the New Covenant to the Everlasting Covenant.  This is where I am having difficulty understaning the need to inaugurate the New Covenant. The promises made to King David and the agreement under which he was saved, was as I understand it, the Everlasting Covenant which I understand to the be the agreement that I may claim to be under also. Is this correct?
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on October 31, 2009, 02:11:21 PM
Brother Richard,
Good questions, thanks for them, I have to stop and think about this, but never fear I will be back soon.
Regards,
Ian
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on November 01, 2009, 01:42:37 AM
Thank you for taking the time to consider this. It is important that we fully grasp what Paul is teaching about the new and old covenants. So much of his message in the New Testament is bound up with the law and grace. He was speaking to a church that was very legalistic. I believe it had a lot to do with his choice of words and examples.

I think this is why he does not bring into account the everlasting covenant. The Jews were set on what God had given them at Sinai. They held the "law" in great esteem and then killed the author of that law. Jesus came into this world to correct their error in regards to the law. They thought He was doing away with it, but not so. He was only sweeping away the mess they had piled on top of it. Human laws that brought reproach upon His holy law and made the keeping of the law burdensome.

Elsewhere Paul tells us that the law is holy, just, and good. And that it was glorious. But, it is only the "schoolmaster" that leads to Christ. Christ, is the Glorious One whose character is seen in the law. It appears to me that Paul contrasts the old and new covenants in this light. The law given at Sinai was glorious, but rather than have the law written on tables of stone, the new covenant promised to write it on the fleshly tables of the heart.  A much better covenant established upon better promises.

It is true that the old covenant shadowed forth Christ, but after the cross, there was no more human priest standing between man and God. Now man could bring his sacrifice directly to God through our living High Priest who was mediating in the heavenly sanctuary. In the everlasting covenant, the very same promises existed as in the new covenant, that God would write His law in the heart, He would give us enmity towards sin we did not possess without Jesus in the heart. The old covenant was a bridge to the everlasting covenant. Through the sanctuary and its services, a people who were little more than brute beasts coming out of Egypt were to learn of the plan of salvation and their need of a Saviour. They had lost sight of it all and they needed to learn of their great need. They thought they could keep the law on their own. The old covenant was to teach them they needed a Saviour. The law, both moral and ceremonial was to do its work as a schoolmaster. This was the "ministration of death". Then the Israelite as well as the gentile could claim the promises of the everlasting covenant which is the "ministration of life", life in Christ Jesus.

Why is this important today? Well, reading the writings of Paul is hard. But, when understood, we receive a great blessing. He wrote much of the New Testament. Besides, think on poor Peter. He loved Jesus, but did not know his own heart. He did not know of his dependence upon Christ to do any good thing. Self assured he was. Then I come down to our day. Do we see a similar situation in the church, in God's church? We do. It is in a Laodicean condition where most believe they are rich and increased with goods, but know not that they are miserable, wretched, poor, blind, and naked. The very same self assuredness that plagued poor Peter.  We all need to come to the point in life where we proclaim with Saul, "O wretched man that I am, WHO will deliver me from the body of this death?" When the law has done its work, then we are ready to ask the all important question "WHO" will help me?

The law has not been done away with. It was the ministration of death that was done away with. The old covenant was no longer needed since Christ has come and suffered and died. Away with the whole system of priests and laws that shadowed forth the Saviour. He had come and had left not just a teaching and an example, but He has given His Spirit to live in man. The Spirit had always been there and all who were saved before the cross were saved in the very same manner we are today, by the everlasting covenant, by the blood of Christ, by dying to self and living to God through the abiding presence of Jesus Christ in the heart. Ezekiel made it perfectly clear, A new heart will I give you, a new Spirit will I put within you! I will cause you walk in my statutes. This is the better covenant established upon better promises than those made at Sinai, obey and live.

We have much to learn and I am only scratching at the surface of the righteousness of Christ and all that He means to us. It is present truth! It is the third angels message in verity! The loveliness of Jesus!! The law is glorious, but Christ is much more glorious!! He is the reality!
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on November 05, 2009, 01:10:33 PM
Hi Richard,
Thanks for your thought-provoking comments.
I have been thinking about the term 'everlasting covenant'. My immediate response when I read that term is to think of Christ, the Lamb slain  from the foundation of the world, but my second response has been to find out how the Bible writers use the term
This is what I discovered when I checked Scripture.
The term 'everlasting covenant occurs in 14 verses (NASB) in the Old Testament and doesn't occur in those words in the New Testament.
None of these references is a reference to salvation
The first Biblical reference is often very significant and the first reference in this case is Gen 9:11-17.
Amost all of the other references are related to Abraham and his seed inhabiting the land of Israel forever.
I think it is worth noting that the Seed of Abraham is Christ.

I have been trying to clarify my thinking of the Old and New Covenants. What do you think of this thought?
The Old Covenant and the New Covenant are not ways of salvation; salvation is a gift. The covenants are each an invitation to a relationship. That relationship is dynamic, not static. It changes as the plan of salvation is implemented. Gal 3:23-4:7.  It is intimately connected to salvation, in that salvation is a relationship which which is developed and protected through the experience of service.
I value your comments .


God bless,
Ian
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on November 06, 2009, 12:07:26 AM
Thank you for your thoughts, dear brother. It is a blessing to study with you and all who seek to better understand God's truth. The Holy Spirit will reveal to us just what we need to know each day.

I guess I began with what I thought was the definition of a covenant. And then I looked to see what were the promises in these covenants. Generally in such matters there are two or more parties and they agree to "perform" some specified action(s).

It seems to me that salvation in part of the agreement although it may not be spelled out as "salvation". But, the promises from God in the everlasting and the new covenants seem to be saying that God will do something for man that will lead to eternal life. And, in the old covenant, God said that if man would obey, he would live. I take this to mean eternal life since man already possessed temporal life.

Does this make sense? Or did I miss something?  Looking forward to your response, dear brother.
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on November 06, 2009, 09:14:38 PM
Hi Richard,
Thank you Richard for your response.
In response I again emphasise that salvation is a free gift, not a component of a covenant.
I see ‘Covenant and ‘salvation’ are separate and independent entities. Salvation is a promise, it is never a covenant, never something that can be demanded on the basis of human performance.

On this basis I see it as incorrect if we propose that the Old Covenant was an agreement between God and the Israelites which promised them salvation is they obeyed.
The Old Covenant did not require obedience for salvation, but it did offer rewards for obedience (Notice that Jesus’ parables do this too) and that obedience would be a wall of protection for the Israelites.

A covenant is an agreement between two parties and is dependant on each performing their part. If either party fails then they can be taken to court and performance enforced, or the result can be that the other party can be released from their commitment.
God doesn’t force obedience, but He withdrew from the Old Covenant. That is He did not fulfil His promises of blessings because the Israelites were unfaithful.

Salvation is not a covenant. From the time of Genesis 3:15, it is and always has been an unconditional promise. In the Old Covenant it was presented in object lesson form in the sanctuary and its services. It was confirmed as reality at Calvary.

God bless,
Ian



Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on November 22, 2009, 07:55:55 AM
Thank you for your thoughts, Dear Brother Ian. Sorry I took so long to reply.

On this basis I see it as incorrect if we propose that the Old Covenant was an agreement between God and the Israelites which promised them salvation is they obeyed.
The Old Covenant did not require obedience for salvation, but it did offer rewards for obedience (Notice that Jesus’ parables do this too) and that obedience would be a wall of protection for the Israelites.

A covenant is an agreement between two parties and is dependant on each performing their part. If either party fails then they can be taken to court and performance enforced, or the result can be that the other party can be released from their commitment.
God doesn’t force obedience, but He withdrew from the Old Covenant. That is He did not fulfil His promises of blessings because the Israelites were unfaithful.

Can we agree that the terms of the "old covenant" were, Obey and live: "If a man do, he shall even live in them;" but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them"? The "new covenant" was established upon "better promises"--the promise of forgiveness of sins, and of the grace of God to renew the heart, and bring it into harmony with the principles of God's law.
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Tim2 on November 22, 2009, 09:18:44 AM
Amen!!  To all who cry out "O wretched man that I am", I cannot obey in my own strenth, a "better promise" would be "a new heart will I give you" and "I will cause you to keep my laws" and walk in my statutes and judgements.  Jesus then "works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure."  We are then in agreement (sumphemi greek -- or in harmony) with the law.
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on November 27, 2009, 09:20:36 PM
Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.  And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.  2 Peter 3:14-16.

But, through the aid of the Holy Spirit we can understand what Paul was inspired to write. We must better understand the context of his Words, to whom he was speaking. The "law" to Paul has a somewhat different meaning than to most of us today. It is why he does not mention the everlasting covenant and only speaks of the "Old" and the "New" Covenants. He is speaking to a people who only knew the Old Covenant, the agreement they had made with God at Sinai.
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on December 01, 2009, 12:01:18 PM
Hi Richard,
You write,"Can we agree that the terms of the "old covenant" were, Obey and live: "If a man do, he shall even live in them;" but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them"? The "new covenant" was established upon "better promises"--the promise of forgiveness of sins, and of the grace of God to renew the heart, and bring it into harmony with the principles of God's law". 

I agree and disagree. I am not trying to be intentionally difficult. My problem is that I understand that that there is and only ever has been one way of salvation and that is by grace through faith.
Do you agree?
God bless,
Ian

 
 
 
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on December 01, 2009, 01:33:13 PM
Amen! We agree that only Christ can save.

I am not sure, but I take it that where we disagree with that you believe the Israelite was saved under the Old Covenant?

If so, let me explain how I see it. Yes, there were indeed Israelites who were saved during the period of the Old Covenant prior to the New Covenant. Then how can that be?  None were saved under the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant merely pointed out their death, spiritual death. They were saved by the blood of Christ which was the promise, covenant, first made in the Garden of Eden. It is the "Everlasting Covenant". It was renewed with Abraham and is also known as the Abrahamic Covenant.

Dear brother, I am the first to acknowledge that some of the writings of Paul are not easy to understand. But, when looked at as a whole with the aid of the rest of the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy, it is our blessing to realize what he taught. I would have preferred he had included a lesson on the Everlasting Covenant, but he did not. God has seen to it that we understand that the Everlasting Covenant is the same as the New Covenant. The better promises in the New Covenant, are the better promises in the Everlasting Covenant.

Thank you for your patience as we study this difficult concept. 
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on December 02, 2009, 11:58:35 AM
Hi Richard,
Thanks for your comments. I do not believe the Old Covenant was way of salvation. It was God's way of presenting the plan of salvation. The subject we are seeking to unwrap is just so vital, but full of confused loose ends. I enjoy our exchanges, they have caused me to do a great deal of thinking. One subject I would like us to take time to focus on is the term 'everlasting covenant'.
What is the everlasting covenant? I originally accepted it as the promise of salvation.
However after going to my concordance I have been unable to find a text which uses the term 'everlasting covenant' in reference to salvation.
Can you help here please?
God bless,
Ian
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Tim2 on December 02, 2009, 12:21:37 PM
I am interested in more study on this subject.  It seems that some who talk about the everlasting or new covenant, are still preaching the old one.  Obey and live.  Again I need to study this out more, but is the difference that one says obey and live and the other; look and live?  Probably way to simplistic.
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on December 02, 2009, 03:43:05 PM
I like it!  But, yes, I think we need to explain a little more so that Paul's thoughts come through to those who have been misled.  Paul was explaining to the new converts that the letter of the law kills and the Spirit of Christ brings life. The law demands perfect obedience which man does not have to give. The everlasting covenant did not ask for perfect obedience that man did not have to give, but rather promised a Saviour that would not only redeem man from his death sentence, but empower man to live the law through the Savioiur. The promise was to change man, to give him enmity towards sin, to write the law on the table of his heart.

Until stripped of pride and certainty of his ability to keep the law, God could not help the Israelite just freed from Egypt, nor can He help  us. Many today are working very hard to keep the law, but the commandment has not yet come home to them. They are working in vain, for it is impossible for them to keep the law as the law requires. It is only when the law is written in the heart through the indwelling presence of the Spirit that man can live. Not until the truth is revelaed as it was when Moses destroyed the tables of stone is it possible to understand who we really are. And even then it is just the beginning of our experience in discovering how evil we are apart from Christ. The close we get to Him, the more clearly we see who we are. As we learn of Jesus we have a better standard with which we may measure our goodness. Not much there to be proud of when compared to the real Jesus.
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Tim2 on December 02, 2009, 04:18:58 PM
Oh, how I love to hear that Christ centered message!  I never tire of that perspective!  What hope -- What assurance.   I can trust Jesus and then as I look at the law, it says "holier still" and because of my love relationship with my Lord and because of His righteousness, I fix my eyes back on Him and am "changed from Glory to Glory, just as by the spirit of the Lord."  There may be hope for me yet!
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on December 02, 2009, 04:45:52 PM
If Jesus says that He loves you and me, and if He says that He will come and take us home with Him, and if He says that if we will come to Him just as we are, He will write His law in our hearts, then who are we, such dumb dogs, to think He may be wrong! :)  We accept Him at His Word as impossible as it may seem to not only forgive me, but to change me into His image!

The Jews asked for a sign, yet the greatest miracle that God could do was not to raise the dead, but to bring back from spiritual death a sinner. The Centurian, the demoniac, the woman caught in sin, the Sons of Thunder, Poor self-assured Peter, Thomas so full of doubt, Stephen, John the Baptist, Enoch, and how about Zacchaeus! The greatest of all miracles to re-create fallen man in His image!!

And, we, living at the end of time are privileged to reveal the character of Christ more than in the past. It is not good enough for us to remain where we are, we must reach higher by falling at the foot of the cross. As we do so, God will raise a standard, that standard will be a revelation of Him in us.

Here is what He intends to do:And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. 

There is a great difference between him that is in Christ and him who is not. The world can see it and so may we.
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on December 02, 2009, 08:05:52 PM
Hi Richard,
Thanks for your comments. I do not believe the Old Covenant was way of salvation. It was God's way of presenting the plan of salvation. The subject we are seeking to unwrap is just so vital, but full of confused loose ends. I enjoy our exchanges, they have caused me to do a great deal of thinking. One subject I would like us to take time to focus on is the term 'everlasting covenant'.
What is the everlasting covenant? I originally accepted it as the promise of salvation.
However after going to my concordance I have been unable to find a text which uses the term 'everlasting covenant' in reference to salvation.
Can you help here please?
God bless,
Ian

Brother Ian, I too am blessed as we study this more carefully. Let  me say that this is a most difficult subject for me. If I were to only have the Bible, I would not have come to the place I am in my thinking. Others have been here before us. Here is a statement, one of many that makes sense to me.

"As the Bible presents two laws, one changeless and eternal, the other provisional and temporary, so there are two covenants. The covenant of grace was first made with man in Eden, when after the Fall, there was given a divine promise that the seed of the woman should bruise the serpent's head. To all men this covenant offered pardon, and the assisting grace of God for future obedience through faith in Christ. It also promised them eternal life on condition of fidelity to God's law. Thus the patriarchs received the hope of salvation.  

This same covenant was renewed to Abraham in the promise, "In thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed." Gen. 22:18. This promise pointed to Christ. So Abraham understood it, and he trusted in Christ for the forgiveness of sins. It was this faith that was accounted unto him for righteousness. The covenant with Abraham also maintained the authority of God's law. The Lord appeared unto Abraham, and said, "I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect." The testimony of God concerning His faithful servant was, 'Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.' Gen. 17:1; 26:5. . . .

The Abrahamic covenant was ratified by the blood of Christ, and it is called the 'second,' or 'new,' covenant, because the blood by which it was sealed was shed after the blood of the first covenant.  

The covenant of grace is not a new truth, for it existed in the mind of God from all eternity. This is why it is called the everlasting covenant.  

There is hope for us only as we come under the Abrahamic covenant, which is the covenant of grace by faith in Christ Jesus. The gospel preached to Abraham, through which he had hope, was the same gospel that is preached to us today. . . . Abraham looked unto Jesus, who is also the author and the finisher of our faith."

The  light gathered from this reasoning and the understanding of how Paul was teaching, in the context of Judaizers that were forever perverting the gospel of grace, combine to open our minds to the situation when Paul used the terms the Old and the New Covenants.
 
I am not an expert on this my dear brother, but this is where I am today. Remember the discussion between Smith and Waggoner and Jones on the law in Galatians? This is the same problem existing today as to what is Paul speaking of in Galatians, the moral or the ceremonial? It is both. The law, both ceremonial and moral is spoken of by Paul as the "ministration of death".  Thus we have the language of the Old and the New Covenant. One by the "letter of the law" which was glorious and the ministration of death and the other by the Spirit which brought life and wrote the law upon the heart and was more glorious.

The law was to condemn and the Spirit was to bring life. When we see what Paul is teaching, then we are better prepared to answer the questions posed by those of other faiths who have believed a lie that the moral law is no longer binding. Paul was not doing away with the law, but revealing the lie of the Judaizers that perverted the gospel of grace by giving power to the law to save.

Thank you, dear brother for your Christian attitude in dealing with this most difficult topic. I am learning as we go along. I am happy to see any error in my thinking on this. It is better to be correct in our understanding than remain in error. I thank Jesus for the light He has entrusted to us weak and erring mortals! One day we will get it right and He will come and take us home!!

Blessings to you as we continue in His Spirit!
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Tim2 on December 03, 2009, 05:17:54 AM
Amen!  This is the balance, then -- To continually show the Christ of the law and the Righteousness in him. We have the same problem today that Paul had with the Judaizing teachers in his day and it's not necessary -- we have such better, "exceeding great and precious promises"-- a new but everlasting covenant -- better understood than ever before -- As we lift up Jesus so that He may "draw all men to Him", we show the enabling grace provided to keep His law of liberty.  All that has been written for us in that covenant is for our benefit and happiness -- our abundant life.  It is only in Jesus, though, that, as fallen sinful beings, we can see the law as "good", not just a list of restrictions and thus live in harmony with it. The "ministration" (law) itself has no glory apart from Christ --

 The greatest difficulty Paul had to meet arose from the influence of Judaizing teachers. These made him much trouble by causing dissension in the church at Corinth. They were continually presenting the virtues of the ceremonies of the law, exalting these ceremonies above the gospel of Christ, and condemning Paul because he did not urge them upon the new converts.  {1SM 236.1}

Paul met them on their own ground. "If the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious," he said, "so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: how shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory" (2 Cor. 3:7-9). {1SM 236.2}

The glory that shone on the face of Moses was a reflection of the righteousness of Christ in the law. The law itself would have no glory, only that in it Christ is embodied. It has no power to save. It is lusterless only as in it Christ is represented as full of righteousness and truth.  {1SM 237.2}
 
It was seeing the object of that which was to be done away, seeing Christ as revealed in the law, that illumined the face of Moses. The ministration of the law, written and engraved in stone, was a ministration of death. Without Christ, the transgressor was left under its curse, with no hope of pardon. The ministration had of itself no glory, but the promised Saviour, revealed in the types and shadows of the ceremonial law, made the moral law glorious. {1SM 237.4}[/color]
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on December 04, 2009, 08:22:08 PM
Yes, dear brother, we do indeed have Pharisees in the church today and we have liberals who dismiss need to keep the law. Jesus speaks to our church today in the third chapter of the Book of Revelation. It is both a rebuke and a promise. The law must do its work or else the sinner does not see himself a sinner. The law is the school-master that leads the sinner to Christ after he sees himself in bondage to the law.

The Laodicean condition is such that until the deception is pointed out, there is great danger the sinner will remain a sinner. The old covenant experience was given for a reason. Why did God enter into an agreement with the Israelites when He knew they would fail?
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Tim2 on December 05, 2009, 02:43:38 PM
Do you see the Laodicean condition as a liberal problem or a Pharisee (legalism) issue.  My thinking was that the "rich and increased" phrase, kind of narrowed the disciption a bit.
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on December 06, 2009, 10:07:50 PM
Both Pharisees and liberals fit the bill. All who have come into God's church generally recognize the fact they are truly blessed! Chosen they are! So many "teachers"!  There are lowly ones who do not see themselves as such. But, then some of them rejoice in their lowliness! :(

The condition is not fatal if the message from Jesus is heeded. He says "Repent". Of course we have not this repentance, we do not even understand what we need to repent of! It seems hopeless, but Jesus whiile giving a strong rebuke, gives the solution after the rebuke.

Getting back to the Old covenant, why do think God entered into an agreement with the Israelites when He knew they would fail?
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Tim2 on December 07, 2009, 05:54:10 AM
Getting back to the Old covenant, why do think God entered into an agreement with the Israelites when He knew they would fail?

They had mostly forgotten about God in Egypt -- He needed by experience to get them to trust Him and by those failures, see their need of a Saviour.  The condition for salvation is today what it has always been  -- obey My commandments -- our trust in ourselves and our utter failure to keep them on our own, brings us to Jesus for enabling grace and the writing of His law on our hearts.
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on December 07, 2009, 10:46:19 AM
Such a blessing to be in unity on such an important principle! Have a blessed day, dear friend!
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on December 07, 2009, 12:55:31 PM
Hi Richard,
I protest.
To say that God sets people up for failure is blasphemy.
James 1:12-14 says that God does not tempt anyone.
The Israelites were not set up to experience failure. Heb 3:15-19, ‘they were not able to enter because of unbelief’. See also Heb 4:2
Jesus wept over Jerusalem, Matt 23:37-39, because they had consistently rejected their opportunities for blessing.
The Bible says that God has the attribute of being all knowing, but it also says things that indicate that God suspends this attribute. Jesus emptied Himself of His divine prerogatives.
My salvation is dependant on my choice, it is not predetermined.
Genesis 22:11-17. the angel of the Lord, (in this instance Jesus?) says, now I know that you fear God. Did not God know that?
God declared to Moses that He was going to destroy the Israelites, but in answer to Moses; prayer He withdrew that intention. Now, was God .lying to Moses? God cannot lie. Mrs White says that God does things in answer to the prayer of faith that He would not otherwise do.
God never sets people up for failure. To say that He does is blasphemy.
Regards,
Ian
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on December 07, 2009, 03:29:36 PM
Dear Brother, I accept your protest and will try to respond in a manner that will agree with your concern.

God knows that most will reject His grace. Yet, He put into action the plan of salvation at great expense and risk. Does that mean He set up most of humanity for failure? Absolutely not. God does the very best that He can to save man.

God had not withheld from Israel the promise of life. It was given to Adam and to their fathers to pass down to their offspring. He did not withdraw that when they came out of Egypt. Unfortunately, the Israelites were not looking for a Saviour. They did not know their need, not yet.  Did not God part the Red Sea for them? Did He not feed them and provide water for them? Did He not lead them with the physical manifestation of His presence? Why was this not enough for them to believe unto salvation?

I ask the same question about today's church. Why the unbelief? Do we not have the cross in its blazing glory before us? So, what is needed to awaken a sleeping church? And of some have compassion, making a difference:  And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. Jude 1:22,23  

The commandment that reveals the sinfulness of sin has not come home to the heart with many. They do not see their sinfulness, but rather believe they are doing just fine. But, the school master, the law has a part to play in conversion. Some think that by keeping the law they will be saved, not realizing they cannot keep the law without a power from outside of themselves. The Bible says the wages of sin is death. Few enjoy the thought of dying. Generally there is a fear of death. So, how can God use fear to save someone? Fear will save none, only grace can save. Then why does Jude say  "save with fear"?

It is the beginning of the process of conversion. It is a fact that when the bombs start falling and the soldier is in the foxhole unprotected from them, he will instinctively begin praying. Fear is a very strong motivator.  So, God takes a people who have little knoledge or interest in a Saviour and gets their attention. He knows without a knowledge of the plan of salvation, they will begin to work their way to heaven. It is human nature. He allows them to try. He says to them "obey and live". He gave them the ceremonial law at the same time, but they did not understand. It is a hard thing to give up ones pride and self sufficiency. It is impossible without a knowledge of God.

They saw that they could not obey. It did not take very long. Did God set them up to fall? No. He gave them an opportunity to know themselves, to see their sinfulness and their inability to obey. This was instrumental in their attaining salvation. They had only just begun their journey. He was leading them step by step. The commandment came home to their hearts. He works the very same way today. He reveals to us our inability to save ourselves by the keeping of the law without a Saviour. First we need to see our need, then we will begin to search for help.  

The Old Covenant was glorious but it was not for salvation in and of itself. It was the revelation of law to reveal the need for a better covenant. A covenant that would write the law on the heart.
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Tim2 on December 08, 2009, 06:03:13 AM
I remember when I was a small boy, my parents encouraging me that it was time to learn to ride a bicycle.  Were they setting me up for failure because they knew I would fall a few times before I succeeded?
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on December 08, 2009, 09:33:12 AM
Yes! That's it!  We give the bike to our precious child knowing he will fall. We wait until the right time to do so. We are there at his side. We know the pain that it will cause, but we look beyond that to the growth that will occur.

How more important eternal life and a changed character!  Let us continue with this great analogy. Who are we thinking of when we hand the bike over? It is the child. We have his interest at heart. And what if we did not present this opportunity and kept all such things away from the child? Will this help him? No. It is part of the process of growing up. And thus it is in the Christian experience. There are steps. God is good to give us little steps that do not destroy us. As we look back on our lives, we see just how patient and long-suffering God has been with us.

It is true that He allows bad things to happen in our lives. It is true that He left Satan in this world when He could have destroyed him 6,000 years ago. Why does He allow us to be hurt? Why did He present the ten commandments when He knew the Israelites just out of bondage were going to fall? Because He knows better than us. He was working with them and loved them. He was helping them in the very best way to get to know themselves and Him.

His physical presence and all of the miracles did not prepare this people for salvation, not yet. It appears that with all that God did in the forty years of wandering, most did not fully understand who they were and their great need of a Saviour.

Why is this so important? Because the experience of the Jews has been duplicated to a large degree today. God's people have been wandering just outside of the promised land for more than 40 years. We are just as blind as the Jews were who put Jesus on the cross. Until we awake to see our need of Jesus, we will not understand that we have no hope, no joy, no peace until we give Him the whole heart.

Thanks, Brother Tim for the excellent analogy. God's love is much greater than our love for our children and He is much wiser. His timing is perfect in regards to when the law needs to come to each one of us. He waits patiently, often for many years before He sees the time is the best it will ever be. Then the Holy Spirit begins to work with greater power to convince of sin and righteousness. A demonstration of our weakness seems to be a very good lesson for many who cannot learn any other way. This is to say, it is a lesson that in some cases needs to be repeated many times.   
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on December 09, 2009, 02:57:47 PM
Hi Richard,
“I am the Lord, I change not” Malachi 3:6
I believe that the understanding that the ‘Everlasting Covenant’ is the most important covenant is misleading
The first covenant is the covenant God made with man at creation.
What is termed, the ‘Everlasting Covenant’ is God’s response to the breaking of and the means of restoring the creation covenant.
All subsequent covenants are stages in the restoration of the creation covenant. They are all part of one, developing continuity of covenants.
How does this concept appeal as Biblical truth?
God bless,
Ian

Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on December 10, 2009, 09:12:14 PM
Thank you for your thoughts, dear Brother Ian. I understand  where  you are starting. It is helpful.

The first covenant is the covenant God made with man at creation.

Yes, there was an agreement made in the garden before sin, but I do not think the Bible says much about it. Although there is at least one statement in regards to it. That agreement was similar to the Old Covenant which was made many years after that Covenant. :)  This is "meat" not "milk" and must be understood in the context of Paul's writings on the Old and New Covenants.

The agreement made between God and Adam was that if man ate from the tree in the midst of the garden,  he would die. Therefore, if Adam did not eat from that tree, he would live. Not much having to do with the following covenants which had to do with how God would  restore a sinner. What is at issue in our discussion is how man, having disobeyed God, could be reconciled to  Him. The promise was made immediately that Christ  would  provide that opportunity. That a way would be made that  man could once again hate sin and love God supremely.  That was the "Everlasting Covenant". It would be ratified with the blood of Christ. But, man lost sight of this promise  when Israel  was in captivity. Thus is was necessary for God to teach man that he needed a Saviour. He was little more than a brute beast when he left Egypt. He had no idea that he was "lost". When Adam sinned, he knew he  was lost. Not  so with the Israelites at Mount Sinai. They did not see themselves as helpless and dead as did Adam. It was necessary for them to be shown that they had no power to keep the law of God in and of themselves. So, God gave them  His law and told them if they would obey, they would live. They said they would. Did they? No! Why not? Because they did not see their need of a Saviour until they broke the covenant.

Then they could begin to learn about the plan of salvation from the ceremonial law. Then they saw their  need, some did  anyway. But, the priests perverted the services and mis-taught the plan of salvation to the degree that when Paul was teaching, few understood that a man was saved by grace, not by the law.


Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on December 10, 2009, 09:20:53 PM
I believe that the understanding that the ‘Everlasting Covenant’ is the most important covenant is misleading
....What is termed, the ‘Everlasting Covenant’ is God’s response to the breaking of and the means of restoring the creation covenant.

Brother Ian, I am teachable and  I am listening to what you present. My understanding is that the "Everlasting Covenant" was made before the foundation of the world was laid. It is the most important covenant. It is the basis  on which the whole universe will be restored to safety.  Am I wrong in my thoughts on this?
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on December 14, 2009, 11:56:48 AM
Hi Richard,

You write, “My understanding is that the "Everlasting Covenant" was made before the foundation of the world was laid. It is the most important covenant. It is the basis  on which the whole universe will be restored to safety.  Am I wrong in my thoughts on this?”

I agree that what we understand as the everlasting covenant is God’s means of restoration of the universe.
In reply I would like to step back a little and ask, ‘What is sin?”
It is beyond our power to understand or explain it. Mrs White writes words to the effect that an explanation for sin would provide an excuse for it.
Satan’s life was a covenant relationship with God. For the unfallen angels that covenant is an everlasting covenant. He broke that covenant.
Mankind’s life in Eden was a covenant relation with God. Had Adam and Eve not sinned the Edenic covenant would have been our everlasting covenant

Adam and Eve need not have sinned. They chose to doubt God’s goodness, disbelieve His word and disobey His command.
‘By one man’s disobedience sin entered the world.’
‘For as through one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.’

What we now call the everlasting covenant, is as you might say, God’s plan B.
I do not for one moment denigrate the eternal importance of Jesus death, but I do not see the term, ‘everlasting covenant’ used in the Bible only to refer to Jesus’ death, or in opposition to the terms Old and New covenants.
Those terms are phases in the process of restoring the Edenic covenant.

God bless,
Ian
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on December 14, 2009, 12:22:47 PM
I agree dear brother, that the term everlasting covenant is used in different ways. But, the everlasting covenant that I speak of is the covenant that the whole universe is watching. It is the covenant that you and I find our hope in. It is the New Covenant promise and it was entered into before sin. Our heavenly Father and our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, agreed to the plan from the foundations of the earth. What a plan!!! What a Sacrifice!! What love!!! That God would allow His innocent Son to come to this dark world, a helpless baby, subject to our infirmities, to fight the battle as we must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss!!! Such a thought!!  Herein is love!  The angels find their joy in contemplating this love. The unfallen worlds watch, hoping the end is near. Yes, this covenant to redeem man at such great expense and great risk is the most amazing covenant ever entered into. And how was that covenant to be ratified? With the blood of God's dear Son!

If you can see wisdom and truth in this, then let us continue on and examine the relationship between this covenant and what Paul calls the Old Covenant.
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Tim2 on December 14, 2009, 05:04:42 PM
Have you thought about this?  It seems like most, after taking their stand for Christ, try the old covenant first.
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on December 15, 2009, 08:18:04 AM
"taking their stand for Christ"? Like the Israelites at Sinai?  What does it mean to take a stand for Christ? Is that what most mean when they "profess" to have become Christians? I perceive that we are making progress!  :)  Dear brother, you have hit the nail on the head. Let us do a little sifting and I think that some reading will get the picture of what happened at Sinai.
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on December 15, 2009, 12:47:58 PM
Hi Tim,
You express a great burden of mine when you ask the question ‘Have you thought about this?  It seems like most, after taking their stand for Christ, try the old covenant first.’.
I think it is true that our natural response to an awareness of our sinfulness is to ask, ‘What must I do to be saved’.
What this leads to for most people is a muddled view of what it means to be a new covenant Christian. They try to integrate old covenant and new covenant practices.
The Catholic church is a very muddled mixture of old covenant and new covenant experience with their teaching of a human, male, ‘priesthood’ acting as intercessors, forgiving sins, etc etc.
A new covenant pastor is very different from an old covenant priest.
The Catholic teaching that I need perfect righteousness to be saved is another example of the muddled thinking that pervades this issue.
God bless,
Ian


Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on December 15, 2009, 01:30:59 PM
Brother Ian, I think we are making progress. Under the Old Covenant, what must one do to be saved? Under the New Covenant what must do in order to be saved?
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Tim2 on December 15, 2009, 03:43:00 PM
A new covenant pastor is very different from an old covenant priest.
The Catholic teaching that I need perfect righteousness to be saved is another example of the muddled thinking that pervades this issue.

Brother Ian;  I'm interested in your thought process here, when you refer to the need for perfect righteousness to be saved.  Could you elaborate? 
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on December 15, 2009, 07:07:30 PM
Bro Tim,
The Catholic Church teaching (as I understand it) is that only the saints have achieved the perfect righteousness. They teach that to get to heaven we have to have perfect righteousness. Try as we might we fall short so the Church will (for suitable consideration) transfer to your account, some of the surplus righteousness of the saints.
I am saved by grace, the free gift of grace. When I accept Jesus, it is not His righteousness which makes up the shortfall of my righteousness. Jesus' death established God's righteousness.
God bless,
Ian







Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Ed Sutton on December 15, 2009, 07:14:44 PM
Quote
The best efforts that man in his own strength can make, are valueless to meet the holy and just law that he has transgressed; but through faith in Christ he may claim the righteousness of the Son of God as all-sufficient. Christ satisfied the demands of the law in His human nature. He bore the curse of the law for the sinner, made an atonement for him, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish. . . . Genuine faith appropriates the righteousness of Christ, and the sinner is made an overcomer with Christ; for he is made a partaker of the divine nature, and thus divinity and humanity are combined.  {AG 177.3}
     He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law, is attempting an impossibility. Man cannot be saved without obedience, but his works should not be of himself; Christ should work in him to will and to do of His good pleasure. . . . All that man can do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and sin; but that which is wrought through faith is acceptable to God. When we seek to gain heaven through the merits of Christ, the soul makes progress. Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, we may go on from strength to strength, from victory to victory; for through Christ the grace of God has worked out our complete salvation.  {AG 177.4}
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Tim2 on December 15, 2009, 07:21:14 PM
My heart thrill's to the good news.  I know myself too well -- it must be Christ's righteousness, praise God!!!
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on December 16, 2009, 03:27:16 PM
Hi,
As a young person I saw life as pretty simple and straightforward, but now that I am much older I have a much clearer understanding of the issues, but I have become aware that the means of dealing with those issues are complex.
Salvation is the big issue, but it is about much more than me. Jesus didn’t die just to save me, but His death made my salvation possible.
Jesus’ death is the foundation of the plan of salvation, but my personal salvation could almost be called a by-product.
Jesus’ death was the answer to Satan, it established God’s righteousness.
He established it by being perfect man, made in the image of God.
Through the gifts of the Holy Spirit God awaits His church becoming a reflection of the image of Christ.
God bless
Ian

Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Mimi on December 19, 2009, 08:25:44 AM
I am reading the original "Present Truth" articles by E.J. Waggoner on "The Everlasting Covenant" May 1896 to May 1897. Has anyone read these?

It was my purpose to read through them in the space of an hour or so but that has turned into a serious study lasting more than a week, and even then, a week will be quite insufficient time to gather all I want to understand (in great detail) as to what constitutes The Everlasting Covenant.
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on December 19, 2009, 12:58:26 PM
Hi Richard,

Brother Ian, I think we are making progress. Under the Old Covenant, what must one do to be saved? Under the New Covenant what must do in order to be saved?

Well Richard, it is easy to come up with stock answers, but one of the things I have come to see is that, as Adventists, we spend our time defending the answers of our pioneers, but we forget the questions, so I will try and avoid ‘stock’ answers.

‘Under the Old Covenant what must one do to be saved?”

An interesting point to be remembered here is that the people Jesus spoke to were Old Covenant believers.
The rich young ruler was told that if he wanted to be perfect, then ’come follow Me’.
The prodigal son’s repentance and return was all that was needed to have his filthy garments replaced and be welcomed home.
Romans 4 ‘Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness’.(but note Genesis 22:12 ‘now I know that you fear God’.)
Note too, James 2:17 etc. ‘Faith if it has no works is dead, being by itself’.
Jesus Himself clearly stated this point, Matthew 7:21-24 :I never knew you, depart from Me’.

There were no sanctuary sacrifices for wilful, deliberate breaking of the commandments. See Leviticus 4 and Numbers 15:22-28 unintentional. V30-31 defiant sin.
But note Ps 51. There was no sanctuary sacrifice David could offer as atonement, but God accepted his ‘broken spirit and contrite heart’ as He always does.

Keeping the commandments never saved anybody, but and it is a huge ’but’, commandment keeping provides a wall of protection for the saved person.

Under the New Covenant what must one do to be saved?
While I see a great difference between the experience of the Old Covenant believer and the New Covenant believer,(see Galatians 4:1-7)yet I see no difference in what I, a New Covenant believer, must do in order to be saved. ‘By grace are you saved’.

Libraries are filled with books on this subject, I just hope our churches are filled with people who live the experience.
God bless,
Ian
 
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on December 19, 2009, 06:04:37 PM
Thank you for your thoughtful reply, dear Brother Ian. I look forward to them.

Libraries are filled with books on this subject, I just hope our churches are filled with people who live the experience.

Amen!! This is the reason why we study this subject. Many have mis-taught it and are responsible in part for many who will be lost thinking that the law is no longer binding.  If we can give a good explanation of the Old and New Covenants that is in harmony with Scripture, some will see and turn from their error.  :)

Quote
Under the Old Covenant what must one do to be saved?”

An interesting point to be remembered here is that the people Jesus spoke to were Old Covenant believers. The rich young ruler was told that if he wanted to be perfect, then ’come follow Me’.

Yes, but being an Old Covenant believer he thought that since he had kept the law he was saved. God had said in the agreement "obey and live". He thought he had obeyed. He was living under the Old Covenant, not the Abrahamic Covenant. Jesus met him where he was. He did not argue with him about his having kept the commandments, He merely told him to sell all that he had and come and follow him. This revealed to the young man that he had violated the law. And, he knew that he did not have life at that point. The Old Covenant had done its work, but it could not save him, only Jesus can save.

Paul met with the same attitude and this is why we have the term "Old Covenant" and New Covenant. Paul made the distinction so that those who thought they were saved by keeping the law could learn that they were not. The "letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life." Obey and live is true, but none can obey without a Saviour. The Old Covenant did not tell them of forgiveness, it just said "obey and live".
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on December 22, 2009, 11:42:06 AM
Hi,
Please help me clarify something here, something which I believe is hugely important.
I as a Seventh-day Adventist, understand the fulness of salvation through what the sanctuary services taught, in particular the seven annual feasts.
It is true that the Pharisees came to believe salvation was in being born an Israelite and keeping the law, but they were wrong.
Some of the posts on this topic teach that the Pharisees were right.
Jesus was crucified because He exposed the error of the Pharisees.
Jesus was in every respect of His life and teaching a true Old Testamenmt Israelite.
Am I wrong?
Ian
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on December 23, 2009, 11:03:42 AM
I believe you are right, dear brother. Jesus is the fulfillment of the Old Testament teachings and He is the Lamb that taketh away the sins of the world. John the Baptist had been mis-taught by the teachers of his day. He did not know that the Lamb had to die. Such a deception! The Pharisees and the teachers of that day had perverted the sanctuary and its services to lead the people to believe that salvation was meritorious. They were busy working their way to heaven despite what the Old Testament said. The prophet attempted to correct the false teaching, but finally Jesus Himself had to correct the misunderstanding.

There is a difference between the Old Testament and the Old Covenant. This may be where there is some confusion. The Old Covenant was made at Sinai and was made in order that the people might see their need of a Saviour.

My dear brother, the more we openly discuss this subject, the more we shall learn. It is an important and deep subject. Thank you for your patience and your contribution.
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on December 23, 2009, 11:56:20 AM
Hi Richard,
Thanks for your reply, but I question your logic where you separate the Old Testamnet and Old Covenant.

You write, 'There is a difference between the Old Testament and the Old Covenant. This may be where there is some confusion. The Old Covenant was made at Sinai and was made in order that the people might see their need of a Saviour.'

I gree with what you say, but not with what I think you mean. ( I had an Irish grandfather)
In my understanding, as I read the Old Testament, it was at Sinai that the sanctuary and its services were established. The very essence of the sanctuary teaching was that salvation was provided by God. The daily, morning and evening sacrifice of the lamb of God was a sacrifice offered by God, not the people. This daily sacrifice kept open the access to God.
The people's individual sacrifices were for ceremonial uncleaness so as to keep clear their covenant, saving relationship.
The covenant was not a way of salvation, it was a way of service which provided protection.
God bless,
Ian

Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on December 23, 2009, 12:53:25 PM
My dear Brother Ian, I think we are in more agreement than appears. This is a complex subject because like the Jews of old, we are not well grounded. Teachers have not been very good at presenting the truth as it is in Jesus. I think that we agree on the gospel truth, but where the difficulty comes in is with the language of Paul. I am not an expert on this, but I have been praying and studying and have found that others are seeing the same as what I believe I am seeing. It is the language that Paul used that is difficult for us. He was speaking to "Old Covenant" Jews or those that had come under their teachings.  We are not in that same position so we place a different meaning on his words, I think.

The Old Testament precedes the Old Covenant which was made at Sinai. The Old Testament is the Bible from the beginning of Genesis when there were no Jews. One third of Earth's history was before Sinai and the Old Covenant. Only one third of history was bound by the Old Covenant if we agree that it ought to have ceased with the teachings of Paul on the subject. Of course it has not ceased, for there are many today that believe they can work their way to heaven by keeping the commandments of God. And, even after Sinai, God was still presenting the Everlasting Covenant to the Jews. He spoke His promises through the prophets which in turn were persecuted by the Jews. He also used the Sanctuary service to teach the Everlasting Covenant. But, the ceremonial law even though it foreshadowed Christ, did not save anyone anymore than the moral law could, it only was the school-master to point to Jesus.

I understand to a degree where we are having a problem. I, too, saw the Sanctuary and its services as providing salvation through Christ, but I don't believe that is what Paul was teaching. When we talk about providing salvation in Paul's language, he is speaking another language to meet the Jews on their ground, not ours. They did not perceive the Lamb as Christ. They perceived the Lamb as a lamb representing their great sacrifice, not God's.  So, Paul used their idea of salvation to address their error. They wanted law, so he told them what was expected under law, perfect obedience. He told them that the letter of the law "killeth" whereas the Spirit brings life. This in no way brought reproach upon the law for he said it was glorious, but it could not save as the Jews taught that it could.

Paul is making a point that we have a hard time understanding. He is trying to point out that the law cannot save, only Christ can save. This is why he chose to use the phrases "Old Covenant" and "New Covenant". He was contrasting the Jews plan of salvation with God's plan. The Jews had taken  the agreement made at Sinai as being the full plan, but it was not. It was only the law, both moral and ceremonial. God commanded them to do it. The law cannot save, but it is "part" of the plan of salvation. They took the ball and ran with it not knowing there was more to it. If they had prayerfully studied the ceremonial law, they would have learned of the full plan and their need of the Lamb that taketh away the sins of the world. Paul is going to teach them the whole plan, but first he needed to show them the error of their teaching. The blood of bulls and goats could save no man, only the blood of Christ can bring life.

I hope this helps to explain my understanding a little better. I am sure that we both will continue to better understand this as we seek wisdom from on high. Again, thank you for your patience and giving me opportunity to express what I believe to be true. As an erring human, I really appreciate your patience and your posts. The truth will not suffer from a close examination and in this subject there is so much more to learn. Thank you, dear brother.
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on December 26, 2009, 01:05:30 PM
Hi Richard,
This is indeed a complex subject.I love the challenge.
One thing I have come to believe is that there is no one single thing to salvation. It is a whole complex of things that work together. These can be examined singly, (eg justification v santification)but they work only in unison. They are complimentary, not competitive.

One thing I would appreciate your thoughts about is John's statement, John 1:29, 'Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world'.
Where was John drawing this symbolism from?
What did the Jews listening to him understand to be the meaning of his statement?

God bless,
Ian
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on December 27, 2009, 08:23:13 AM
One thing I have come to believe is that there is no one single thing to salvation. It is a whole complex of things that work together. These can be examined singly, (eg justification v santification)but they work only in unison. They are complimentary, not competitive.

I agree, dear brother.

Quote
One thing I would appreciate your thoughts about is John's statement, John 1:29, 'Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world'. Where was John drawing this symbolism from?
What did the Jews listening to him understand to be the meaning of his statement?

That is a very good question that I cannot answer with assurance. I can only look at the Old Testament and take a guess. One thing that we do know is that at the time when John uttered this statement, he expected the Messiah to reign a temporal king over Israel and free the Jews from Roman rule. Thus, it can be said that he did not expect Jesus to die.

I would assume that when he made that statement, it was inspired by the Holy Spirit that was leading John. Many times a prophet speaks things that he does not understand, but that God wanted said. It appears to be the case here. What did the Jews who were listening think?  Well, they were in no better shape to understand than John. They, too were looking for a Messiah to free them from Roman rule. When Jesus hung on the cross, none except the thief and the centurian thought Jesus to be the Son of God. Even the disciples and Jesus' mother lost faith in His being the Messiah. Very sad, but that was where the false teachers had led their people. And this was after Jesus had told them He was going to die.

This subject ought to give us reason to pause and examine what we have been taught. The condition of the church is not much different today. Jesus says to us  thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked...   Our fathers are not much different than their fathers.

What are your thoughts on this, dear Brother Ian?
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on December 28, 2009, 03:08:18 PM
Hi Richard,
Thanks for your response. I am sure nobody has all the answers, but I have learned a whole lot since we started sharing on this subject. Let us keep it up please.

I agree that John the Baptist shared the common belief that the Messiah would come as King of kings. Lord of lords and so He will, at His second coming.

The words John was inspired to proclaim, ‘Behold the
Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world’ did not begin to make sense until the resurrection appearances of Jesus.
Remember that all the first Christians were Jews and after the resurrection, these words made sense to them as they saw them pointing to the fulfilment of the symbolism of the lamb of God the priests offered every morning and evening.

I used to see John’s statement as a reference to the
Day of Atonement offering until I noticed it was a kid, not a lamb, whose blood cleansed the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement.

One of the confusions we are plagued with today is the belief that salvation for the Israelites was offered at Sinai.
From the time of Abraham the Israelites had continued to follow and worship God.
Am I correct? If so, what was offered at Sinai?

God bless,
Ian
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on December 29, 2009, 01:06:14 PM
One of the confusions we are plagued with today is the belief that salvation for the Israelites was offered at Sinai. From the time of Abraham the Israelites had continued to follow and worship God.
Am I correct? If so, what was offered at Sinai?

Most teachers in the fallen churches know very little about the Lamb of God. They are as ignorant as was John the Baptist. The Israelites went into captivity because of their failure to follow God. When they came out there were little more than brute beasts, ignorant of God and his Sacrifice. God has to begin anew with them.

Moses on the other hand was meek and lowly and was possessed by Christ. He understood the Lamb and Christ was his constant companion. God set up His Sanctuary in the midst of the people that they might learn of Him and His Son. He would dwell in the midst of His people. How did it work? Not very well. Only two of the adults that began the journey went into the promised land. They were a rebellious people and their children did little better. Each reformation brought a deeper apostasy. Finally Jesus had to come and sweep away all the lies the had veiled the law of God and reveal to these erring children the great I Am.

While multitudes were converted after the cross, there was still a mighty work of teaching to be done. The gospel truth had been perverted and the new church was in danger of imbibing the same lie that had deceived a nation. Works will never change a heart, only the Spirit of Christ can do that. The law of God is the school-master that leads us to see the exceeding sinfulness of sin. It is then that we see our need of the Great Physician who can heal the deadly bite of sin. The Covenant at Sinai was to act that part in the nation at that time. It was to reveal that the sinner was a sinner and he could not obey the law of God on his own. They soon discovered their weakness and then could learn from the Sanctuary and its services about the Great Sacrifice that God had promised to make on their behalf. They then were instructed WHO was the Lamb of God that would take away the sins of the world.

Share with us, what you see happening at Sinai, dear Brother Ian.
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on December 30, 2009, 12:58:41 PM
Hi Richard,
You ask, ‘what do I see happening at Sinai’.

At Sinai we have the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, worshippers of the Creator God entering into a covenant of service with their God.

God had just recued them from Egyptian slavery.
Exodus 3:6-8 ’I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham…Isaac…Jacob. I have surely seen the affliction of My people who are in Egypt….I have come down to deliver them….to bring them up from that land to a good and spacious land, to a land flowing with milk and honey.’

Note the phrases, ‘God of your father’. ‘My people’.
Since the time of Abraham, the God of the Israelites was the Creator God. They identified themselves as worshippers of the Creator God.

Their rescue depended on their trust in the blood of the lamb.

Am I correctly understanding Scripture?

God bless,
Ian
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on December 31, 2009, 02:40:27 PM
Good morning, dear brother! Here it is actually afternoon, but I began this post this morning!  :)

I believe you have spoken what the Bible relates. But, let us look more closely at the truth. Often there is more than what first appears.

At Sinai we have the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, worshipers of the Creator God entering into a covenant of service with their God.

Yes, these rebellious people professed to be worshipers of the Creator God. And, yes, God commanded the law from Sinai and told them IF they would obey, they would live. And all replied "All the words which the LORD hath said will we do."

This was the Old Covenant made at Sinai. Obey and Live.

"And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do....And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled [it] on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words. Exodus 24:3,7,8. 

But, listen to what Moses has to say just before he dies:

Deut 30
  30:1   And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call [them] to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 
  30:2   And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 
  30:6   And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. 
  30:7   And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee. 
  30:8   And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day. 
  30:9   And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers: 
  30:10   If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, [and] if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. 
  30:11   For this commandment which I command thee this day, it [is] not hidden from thee, neither [is] it far off. 
  30:12   It [is] not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 
  30:13   Neither [is] it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 
  30:14   But the word [is] very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 
  30:15   See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 
  30:16   In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 
  30:20   That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, [and] that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he [is] thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them. 
 
This is the "Everlasting Covenant". It was not withdrawn when the Old Covenant was entered into. The Old Covenant was to lead the people to see their need of God's love in order to obey His commands.

Quote
God had just rescued them from Egyptian slavery.
Exodus 3:6-8 ’I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham…Isaac…Jacob. I have surely seen the affliction of My people who are in Egypt….I have come down to deliver them….to bring them up from that land to a good and spacious land, to a land flowing with milk and honey.’

Note the phrases, ‘God of your father’. ‘My people’.
Since the time of Abraham, the God of the Israelites was the Creator God. They identified themselves as worshippers of the Creator God.

Their rescue depended on their trust in the blood of the lamb. Am I correctly understanding Scripture?

Their rescue from eternal death depended upon their trust in the blood of Jesus. Amen!! But, they thought their rescue depended upon their offering up their lambs and spilling their blood. And therein is the lesson. Paul was writing to Jews who did not understand Christ to be the Lamb. He had been  one of them who thought the offering of the lamb was meritorious. The whole nation had bought into the lie that God would see them as worthy of life because of their sacrifice. And, if the Jewish mind was not enough, Paul was having to contend with the Judaizing of those whom he had brought to Christ through the real Lamb. The Jews labored under a false conception of salvation through their sacrifice, not the Sacrifice of God. This is why Paul contrasts the Old and the New Covenants. He is teaching that there is no life under the system of shadows. It was only to teach them that life is in the Son of God.

Brother Ian, this is a difficult subject and I want to thank you for being so kind to allow me the opportunity to express my thoughts. You have been most patient. I continue to say, this is something that I am just learning and am certainly desirous to hear your response. The more I study into this, the more clear it becomes. Paul was pointing them and us to Jesus and our need of His Spirit. The ministration of death, the law is glorious, but the ministration of the Spirit is even more glorious!
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on January 01, 2010, 08:45:38 PM
Hi Richard,
This is indeed a difficult subject, but that makes it an exciting challenge and I thank you too for sharing and listening.

I am very sceptical of generalisations.

After the golden calf incident, when Moses called for those who remained loyal to the Lord, the tribe of Levi responded and were rewarded.

Some of the clearest and most beautiful statements of a proper understanding of salvation by faith and the beauty of the Law are found in the Psalms – the worship songs of Israel.

Yes, Israel’s record is pretty miserable, but there were faithful followers who recognised Jesus as the Messiah. Israelites who did not believe they had to work their way to heaven.

Paul had been one of those who ‘had a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge’. Rom 10:2
Paul, never for one moment, regretted being born a Jew. He spent his life showing that Jesus was the fulfilment of the Jewish hope, not a replacement for it.

The Israelite’s whole lives, the way they lived and worshipped were to be an object lesson of and an invitation to salvation. They did create an interest, but it was way way short of what God intended.

We, New Covenant believers are called to proclaim the gospel and how do we compare?
What does our worship service tell people about God?

For the Jews, God was their family god. He was someone they asked for help in time of need.
What about us today, are we more interested in asking God for help to meet our needs, or for help in understanding how we can best serve Him.

God bless,
Ian
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on January 04, 2010, 07:37:08 PM
Yes, Israel’s record is pretty miserable, but there were faithful followers who recognised Jesus as the Messiah. Israelites who did not believe they had to work their way to heaven.

Amen!! There were a faithful few. Daniel, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, all the prophets. Sadly, most of the kings and many of the leaders had a hand in putting to death many of the prophets. Poor Elijah thought he was the only one left, but God had more that he knew nothing of. A relatively few among many.

Quote
Paul had been one of those who ‘had a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge’. Rom 10:2 Paul, never for one moment, regretted being born a Jew. He spent his life showing that Jesus was the fulfilment of the Jewish hope, not a replacement for it.

He spent his whole life after conversion. Before conversion, he was not only a Pharisee of Pharisees, but the hardest worker of them all, the "chief of sinners", the great persecutor.

Quote
The Israelite’s whole lives, the way they lived and worshipped were to be an object lesson of and an invitation to salvation. They did create an interest, but it was way way short of what God intended.

Yes, they were to be an object lesson, an example to the nations of the world.  God desired to make of His people Israel a praise and a glory. Every spiritual advantage was given them. God withheld from them nothing favorable to the formation of character that would make them representatives of Himself.
 
Their obedience to the law of God would make them marvels of prosperity before the nations of the world. He who could give them wisdom and skill in all cunning work would continue to be their teacher, and would ennoble and elevate them through obedience to His laws. If obedient, they would be preserved from the diseases that afflicted other nations, and would be blessed with vigor of intellect. The glory of God, His majesty and power, were to be revealed in all their prosperity. They were to be a kingdom of priests and princes. God furnished them with every facility for becoming the greatest nation on the earth.
 
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on January 04, 2010, 07:48:47 PM
In the most definite manner Christ through Moses had set before them God's purpose, and had made plain the terms of their prosperity. "Thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God," He said; "the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto Himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. . . . Know therefore that the Lord thy God, He is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love Him and keep His commandments to a thousand generations. . . . Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them. Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the Lord thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which He sware unto thy fathers; and He will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: He will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which He sware unto thy fathers to give thee. Thou shalt be blessed above all people. . . . And the Lord will take away from thee all sickness, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee." Deuteronomy 7:6, 9, 11-15.
 
If they would keep His commandments, God promised to give them the finest of the wheat, and bring them honey out of the rock. With long life would He satisfy them, and show them His salvation. 

Through disobedience to God, Adam and Eve had lost Eden, and because of sin the whole earth was cursed. But if God's people followed His instruction, their land would be restored to fertility and beauty. God Himself gave them directions in regard to the culture of the soil, and they were to co-operate with Him in its restoration. Thus the whole land, under God's control, would become an object lesson of spiritual truth. As in obedience to His natural laws the earth should produce its treasures, so in obedience to His moral law the hearts of the people were to reflect the attributes of His character. Even the heathen would recognize the superiority of those who served and worshiped the living God. 

"Behold," said Moses, "I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the Lord my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it. Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the Lord our God is in all things that we call upon Him for? And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?" Deuteronomy 4:5-8. 

The children of Israel were to occupy all the territory which God appointed them. Those nations that rejected the worship and service of the true God were to be dispossessed. But it was God's purpose that by the revelation of His character through Israel men should be drawn unto Him. To all the world the gospel invitation was to be given. Through the teaching of the sacrificial service Christ was to be uplifted before the nations, and all who would look unto Him should live. All who, like Rahab the Canaanite, and Ruth the Moabitess, turned from idolatry to the worship of the true God, were to unite themselves with His chosen people. As the numbers of Israel increased they were to enlarge their borders, until their kingdom should embrace the world. 

God desired to bring all peoples under His merciful rule. He desired that the earth should be filled with joy and peace. He created man for happiness, and He longs to fill human hearts with the peace of heaven. He desires that the families below shall be a symbol of the great family above.

Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on January 04, 2010, 07:57:47 PM
But Israel did not fulfill God's purpose. The Lord declared, "I had planted thee a noble vine, wholly a right seed: how then art thou turned into the degenerate plant of a strange vine unto Me?" Jeremiah 2:21. "Israel is an empty vine, he bringeth forth fruit unto himself." Hosea 10:1. "And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt Me and My vineyard. What could have been done more to My vineyard, that I have not done in it? Wherefore when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to My vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down: and I will lay it waste; it shall not be pruned nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it. For . . . He looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry." Isaiah 5:3-7. 
 
They forgot God, and lost sight of their high privilege as His representatives. The blessings they had received brought no blessing to the world. All their advantages were appropriated for their own glorification. They robbed God of the service He required of them, and they robbed their fellow men of religious guidance and a holy example. Like the inhabitants of the antediluvian world, they followed out every imagination of their evil hearts. Thus they made sacred things appear a farce, saying, "The temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, are these" (Jeremiah 7:4), while at the same time they were misrepresenting God's character, dishonoring His name, and polluting His sanctuary.

The husbandmen who had been placed in charge of the Lord's vineyard were untrue to their trust. The priests and teachers were not faithful instructors of the people. They did not keep before them the goodness and mercy of God and His claim to their love and service. These husbandmen sought their own glory. They desired to appropriate the fruits of the vineyard. It was their study to attract attention and homage to themselves. 

As a last resource, God sent His Son, saying, "They will reverence My Son." But their resistance had made them vindictive, and they said among themselves, "This is the heir; come, let us kill Him, and let us seize on His inheritance." We shall then be left to enjoy the vineyard, and to do as we please with the fruit.

As a people the Jews had failed of fulfilling God's purpose, and the vineyard was taken from them. The privileges they had abused, the work they had slighted, was entrusted to others.

We, New Covenant believers are called to proclaim the gospel and how do we compare?
What does our worship service tell people about God?

For the Jews, God was their family god. He was someone they asked for help in time of need.
What about us today, are we more interested in asking God for help to meet our needs, or for help in understanding how we can best serve Him.

How do we compare? That is indeed the point, dear Brother Ian. The church in this generation has been endowed by God with great privileges and blessings, and He expects corresponding returns. Have we done better than the Jews?


Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on January 04, 2010, 09:00:21 PM
After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts. . . . I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Jeremiah 31:33, 34. 

The same law that was engraved upon the tables of stone, is written by the Holy Spirit upon the tables of the heart. Instead of going about to establish our own righteousness we accept the righteousness of Christ. His blood atones for our sins. His obedience is accepted for us. Then the heart renewed by the Holy Spirit will bring forth "the fruits of the Spirit." Through the grace of Christ we shall live in obedience to the law of God written upon our hearts. Having the Spirit of Christ, we shall walk even as He walked.   

There are two errors against which the children of God --particularly those who have just come to trust in His grace --especially need to guard. The first is that of looking to their own works, trusting to anything they can do, to bring themselves into harmony with God. He who is trying to become holy by his own works in keeping the law, is attempting an impossibility.
 
The opposite and no less dangerous error is, that belief in Christ releases men from keeping the law of God; that since by faith alone we become partakers of the grace of Christ, our works have nothing to do with our redemption. . . . If the law is written in the heart, will it not shape the life?  Instead of releasing man from obedience, it is faith, and faith only, that makes us partakers of the grace of Christ, which enables us to render obedience.

Where there is not only a belief in God's Word, but a submission of the will to Him; where the heart is yielded to Him, the affections fixed upon Him, there is faith--faith that works by love, and purifies the soul. Through this faith the heart is renewed in the image of God. And the heart that in its unrenewed state is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be, now delights in its holy precepts, exclaiming with the psalmist, "O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day" (Psalm 119:97). And the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Romans 8:1). 
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on January 05, 2010, 11:18:22 AM
Hi Richard,
You have been busy responding. I like your contribution, it would appear we have reached somewhat of a consensus on the Old Covenant. Praise the Lord.
What then of the New Covenant?
I understand it as accepted, that it was inaugurated at Pentecost.
It was the fulfilment of the promise, among others, of Jeremiah 31:31-34. Applied in Hebrews chapters 8-9.
It radically changed the experience of the believer of God.
Ultimately, I believe a study of the New Covenant leads to an answer to the question of why hasn't Jesus returned.
I look forward to some interesting exchanges.
God bless'
Ian
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on January 07, 2010, 11:13:17 AM
"Why hasn't Jesus returned?"  That is a very good question, dear brother!  I think you may be right in regards to it maybe having something to do with the New Covenant.

Paul was contrasting the New Covenant with the Old Covenant. In 2 Cor. 3:6 he says Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.    He tells us that we are "ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the Spirit."  The Old Testament was the written law, both moral and ceremonial. It was a shadow of the reality. Both the Ten Commandments written with the finger of God and the ceremonial law pointed to Christ the reality. The New Covenant is not the "letter" of the law, but it is the author of the law. When He is allowed into the heart, then the law is written on the heart. It is a living reality, not just the written law.

Today, when many profess to serve God, but know not what that means, they have need to learn of Jesus. As they learn of God, they will come to understand He is at their right hand, knocking on the door wanting in. He is calling all to Himself. But, we cannot trust anyone with all we have unless we trust them. In the New Covenant (agreement) which was established upon better promises, we are promised a change of heart, a change in nature. How can that be?  Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.  2 Peter 1:4.

Dear brother, I do not think many understand this precious promise. God is telling us that He will come to dwell in us and then we will partake of His nature, His character. Such a mighty promise! We can then find power to obey, not in our strength, but in His! When this becomes better known and how it is that we can have this experience, there will be revival and reformation in the church, then Jesus can come!!

Is this along the line you were thinking? If not, share your thoughts and maybe I can advance in my understanding of this important matter. We want to do all that we can to hasten the soon coming of our Lord!   
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on January 17, 2010, 07:01:51 PM
Hi Richard,
Sorry I have been so ling replying, but I have been at our bi-annual conference camp.
I like your reply. What you write is very much ‘along the line I was thinking’. Perhaps it would be more correct to say it is at the start of ‘the line I was thinking’.
The direction of my thinking is summed up in the passage you quote:-
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.  2 Peter 1:4.
‘Partakers of the divine nature” That, I believe is at the heart of what it means to be a New Covenant follower of Jesus Christ.
The experience of a New Covenant believer is different to that of an Old Covenant believer. It changed at Pentecost with the pouring out of the promised blessing of the fullness of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38 ‘Repent and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.’
Ephesians 1:13 ‘….having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise’.
Ephesians 4:30 ‘Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed to the day of redemption’.
Matthew 12:31-32 ‘any sin and blaspheme shall be forgiven people, but blaspheme against the Spirit shall not be forgiven’.
What I take out of these passages is that when I accept Jesus then God seals me, takes responsibility for my salvation, unless I commit the unpardonable sin?
What do you think?
God bless,
Ian

Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on January 18, 2010, 07:27:52 AM
We are surely quite dense in our humanity.  As I read your post, I completely ignored the verses you quoted from Ephesians and got stuck on our understanding of "sealed" as spoken of in the Book of Revelation. After realizing that you are using the term in the context of Ephesians, I can understand what you are saying, I think.

Please explain further what you are saying about being sealed. I think I agree with your thoughts that God will indeed finish the work He has begun in us IF we will not resist the leading of the Holy Spirit. I would only add that while it begins with Him, ends with Him, and it is His power that saves, it will not happen if we do not make an effort to follow Him. Jesus said "you must drink my blood and eat my flesh." We must come to Him just as we are, daily. We must guard the avenues of our mind. There is a work for man to do or he will not be saved. This work is to come to Jesus, to learn of Him. To cease resisting His drawing. If we will do this, then He will accomplish the task. His work is immeasurably large, ours is immeasurably small.

Are we in agreement here, dear brother?
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on January 25, 2010, 12:11:35 PM
Hi Richard,
I agree with what you write. Perhaps, to put it more accurately, I do not disagree. I shall try to explain what I mean.
In Ephesians 1:13 and 4:30 and Revelation 7:4 etc the word translated 'seal' is the same Greek word and has the same intended meaning.
Ephesians 1:13 having believed you were sealed in Him.
John 5:24 'Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has etyernal life and does not come into judgement, but has passed out of death into life'. cf Jn 3:17-18

Once saved always saved is heresy, but it is very close to truth. It is a heresy to belief that a person can be saved, lost and saved.
Matthew 12:31-32. Hebrews 6:4-6 'it is impossible to renew them again to repentance'.

Salvation is not something we can just take and put away to be dusted off and taken out on judgement day.
If not nurtured it will died, but that dying is an irreversible the result of wilful, continued rejection of the Holy Spirit.

1 Corintians 3:10-15 there is only one foundation, Jesus Christ, but a man has a choice as to what materials he uses for the building. Every man's work will be tested by fire, his work may be burned up but he himself will be saved though as by fire.
See COL pp362-363.A truly sobering statement.
God bless,
Ian

Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on January 25, 2010, 01:36:16 PM
Thank you for your explanation, dear Brother Ian. It is a blessing to study together with you.

Once saved always saved is heresy, but it is very close to truth. It is a heresy to belief that a person can be saved, lost and saved.
Matthew 12:31-32. Hebrews 6:4-6 'it is impossible to renew them again to repentance'.

I understand your concern and it is important to know that playing games with God will indeed cause one to wake up on the wrong side. There is a statement in the Spirit of Prophecy that addresses this to the effect that salvation or something to the effect, is not an off again on again experience.

Having agreed that it is a concern, we need to take care that we do not give eternal life to those who have not His Spirit. It is an opening for many to be deceived as to their real condition before God.

This is on topic in that  the Old Covenant was a matter of profession of faith, but the New Covenant is not merely a profession of faith, but the reality of being a partaker of Christ. If we have not His Spirit, we are none of His. It is the heart that God wants, not a profession of faith. Profession means nothing to God. The "evangelical gospel" so popular today allows one to believe they have salvation because they have professed to serve God. When we come into this world, we come in separated from God. Our nature is at enmity towards Him. Some come filled with the Holy Spirit, but by nature we are evil. Our only hope is to be reconciled to Him. This reconciliation takes place when self is dead and Christ is within. It is called the new birth and is maintained the same way it was gotten, by a full surrender to the Spirit of truth, to Christ.

We can look at the disciples prior to the cross and get a good picture of the reality of what happens when most are converted. We see self reappearing when the connection with Christ is broken. When Peter denied Jesus, he did not have eternal life. When all 12 disciples were vying for the highest position the night before the crucifixion, self was alive in each one. God's Spirit was not within. Our only safety is understanding that God will complete the work He began, if we will work with Him, but when we take our eyes off of Jesus and separate from Him, we must understand that we do not possess eternal life. Separated from God, man does not possess salvation. Adam was removed from the garden so that sin and eternal life would never be possible. He could not eat from the fruit of the tree while sinning. Sin will not be immortalized. We cannot teach this either. Sin reveals a separation between man and God. Christ does not forsake the sinner because he sins, but neither does He indwell the heart of the one sinning. It is impossible. Jesus stands outside, but He does not stand idle. He is knocking wanting back in.

Generally when one sins and repents, sins and repents, he is not experiencing true repentance. But, this is not always the case in the short term. One can wander in and out of conversion in the beginning when learning of his dependence upon Christ.
 
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on February 02, 2010, 01:42:38 PM
Hi Richard,
As usual, we have much on which we agree and that is a blessing, but I learn from the challenge of the things on which we disagree.
A statement you made challenges my understanding of what I believe to be an essential truth and I would like to explore this with you.
You write: ‘when we take our eyes off of Jesus and separate from Him, we must understand that we do not possess eternal life’

I disagree strongly.
To me, the wording of your statement undermines salvation by grace. Makes it dependant on my strength of will, my determination.
My deeper objection is the implication in your statement that we can be saved, then lost and then saved again.
Heb 6:4-6
‘For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame’

As I said in my last posting, I do not believe in once saved always saved, but to believe in an ‘on again off again on again’ salvation, is equally wrong.

Am I on the wrong track, have I misinterpreted Heb 6;4-6?
God bless,
Ian
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Tim2 on February 04, 2010, 07:22:27 PM
Do you mind if I jump in here, brother Ian?  I have been thinking a lot about the example of Jesus with His disciples.  It does seem that it's possible to have a relationship with Jesus without it being a saving relationship.  Jesus says to each one of us, "taste and see" and "come learn of me."  As with any relationship, it takes time to trust.  Judas had a relationship with Christ.  Jesus said to Peter, "get thee behind me satan."  When I think about the shortcomings of the twelve, it gives me hope.  We are constantly falling short, but grace allows us to learn and the opportunity to overcome within a relationship with Jesus.  The Lord said to Peter (after Peter had followed Jesus for three and a half years or so), "when you are converted..."  What do you think about that?  Both Peter and Judas betrayed Jesus.  Which one had eternal life at the time they fell?  Or didn't?  This is a sobering thought -- one that we all need to come to a proper understanding on.      
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on February 04, 2010, 09:53:57 PM
Of course we want your thoughts, dear Brother Tim.  We are on the foundation of our faith. The covenants are meat, but conversion is milk that we all must understand.

As usual, we have much on which we agree and that is a blessing, but I learn from the challenge of the things on which we disagree.

Amen!  God blesses us when we listen to others when they come with a "thus saith the Lord." You are a blessing to me also. Our subject has a direct bearing on a correct understanding of the covenants, so let us seek to come into unity on what conversion is and what it is not. May God grant us more of His Spirit.

Quote
A statement you made challenges my understanding of what I believe to be an essential truth and I would like to explore this with you. You write: ‘when we take our eyes off of Jesus and separate from Him, we must understand that we do not possess eternal life’

I disagree strongly. To me, the wording of your statement undermines salvation by grace. Makes it dependent on my strength of will, my determination.

Let us try and see what your concern is. We both agree that man is saved by grace. None teach this more than I.  We are not saved by faith, not by works, but by grace. It is the love of God that breaks the hard selfish heart of man. Satan lived in the full light of the knowledge of God's love. When he sinned there was nothing more that God could show him. But, with man who was deceived about God's character there is hope that through a knowledge of His love he can be reconciled to Him. So, like you, I am fiercely protective of the doctrine of salvation by grace. Let none insert themselves or their teaching in between God's love and the sinner. His love, grace, is the only hope the sinner has.

Brother Ian, I want to use Paul's writings to address your concern. His burden was to present Christ and Him crucified as the answer to our lost condition. He refused to allow man to believe he could be saved by a profession of faith or by "keeping the law" of God. Thus his use of the terms Old and New Covenants. He saw whole generations of Jews lost because they thought they were saved by keeping the law. In fact they did not keep the law as required by God, as Christ pointed out in His sermon on the mount. The law requires correct motives as well as outward obedience. The wages of sin is death. And sin reaches to the intent of the heart.

We must now look at the one who takes his eyes off of Jesus and separates from Him. If Christ is not within, if His Spirit is not indwelling man, then man has no ability to keep the law from the heart. Paul states that "if we have not His spirit, we are none of His."

How can we give life to man apart from God? Apart from God we are carnal, aligned with Satan. We have no power to do good. We will sin. We must be born again daily and we must maintain that conversion the same way we attained to it, by abiding in Christ. He does not take away our free will. It is left with us to hold on to Christ. Our part is guard the avenues of our mind, to behold Jesus, to pray without ceasing.

If we deny our part in working out our own salvation, then we leave man with no part to play in our salvation. Our part is immeasurably small and His part is immeasurably large, but without our part of clinging to Jesus we shall be lost. We must come to Him just as we are. We must choose to come to Him and then we must choose to serve Him. He does not take away our choice. The sealing of man is based upon man's choice, not God's will. When we learn of God we will choose to serve Him and we will pray without ceasing. We will guard the avenues of our mind. Then with Christ formed within, we are partakers of His divine nature and have power to resist all sin. His promise to those who abide in Christ is that He will not allow them to be tempted beyond what they can bear. It is Christ, not I.

We are saved by grace, but ONLY if we choose to be saved by grace. Billions of precious souls for whom Christ died will waste the expensive gift of salvation, waste the grace so freely offered by not choosing to cease resisting His drawing. He is drawing all to Himself. All who refuse to choose to come to Christ will be lost. Only those who obey Jesus and choose to come to Him will be saved. Are they saved by their choice? No, they are saved by accepting the grace offered. Those who choose wrong will be lost.

Quote
My deeper objection is the implication in your statement that we can be saved, then lost and then saved again.  Heb 6:4-6. ‘For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame’.

I think the problem resolves itself when we do not use the term "saved". Man is not "saved" until he is sealed or goes into the grave surrendered to Jesus.  But, man may know he has eternal life when he knows he is abiding in Christ. Why? Because Christ is life. Apart from Christ, man has no life. That is what Paul was teaching when he said "the letter killeth" but "the Spirit giveth life".  We need the reality in our hearts in order to have life. No Spirit, no Christ, no life.

Addressing Heb. 6:4,5.  When Satan fell away it was impossible to renew him to repentance. With the disciples before Pentecost they did not have a full knowledge of God's love. They were ignorant. Therefore, even though they all had been converted, except for Judas, they would wander in and out of their converted state. When Peter denied Jesus, he did not have His Spirit, and if he had not His Spirit, he was none of His. He learned a lot that night. He better understood himself and He better understood His Lord. His character was strengthened by both. Did he never fall again? He did fall again, but he never "fell away". We will continue along this theme for there is much more to consider that will help us to see that without Christ, we do not have any good thing in us, much less eternal life. But, we ought not despair, Jesus stands at the door knocking when we are separated from Him.  :)

Quote
As I said in my last posting, I do not believe in once saved always saved, but to believe in an ‘on again off again on again’ salvation, is equally wrong.
If we reject once save always saved, then we need to come up with something else. Please share with me where you draw lines. If we do not draw a line, then there is no assurance of salvation unless it be by profession of faith.

Again, dear Brother Ian, you are most gracious and a joy to study with. I wish to know your thoughts, as always. This subject we are now on, when better understood will help to resolve the Laodicean condition in our church. There are a number of young people who have been studying their Bibles and the Spirit of Prophecy and they will not follow tradition, but are seeking Christ. Jesus is coming very soon and He wants you and I to participate in preparation for that glorious day!
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on February 07, 2010, 12:04:09 PM
In my studies I came across a statement that sums up my thoughts contrasting the original covenant made with Adam and what Paul calls the "Old Covenant".

As the Bible presents two laws, one changeless and eternal, the other provisional and temporary, so there are two covenants. The covenant of grace was first made with man in Eden, when after the Fall there was given a divine promise that the seed of the woman should bruise the serpent's head. To all men this covenant offered pardon and the assisting grace of God for future obedience through faith in Christ. It also promised them eternal life on condition of fidelity to God's law. Thus the patriarchs received the hope of salvation. 

This same covenant was renewed to Abraham in the promise, "In thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed." Genesis 22:18. This promise pointed to Christ. So Abraham understood it (see Galatians 3:8, 16), and he trusted in Christ for the forgiveness of sins. It was this faith that was accounted unto him for righteousness. The covenant with Abraham also maintained the authority of God's law. The Lord appeared unto Abraham, and said, "I am the Almighty God; walk before Me, and be thou perfect." Genesis 17:1. The testimony of God concerning His faithful servant was, "Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." Genesis 26:5. And the Lord declared to him, "I will establish My covenant between Me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee and to thy seed after thee." Genesis 17:7.

Though this covenant was made with Adam and renewed to Abraham, it could not be ratified until the death of Christ. It had existed by the promise of God since the first intimation of redemption had been given; it had been accepted by faith; yet when ratified by Christ, it is called a new covenant. The law of God was the basis of this covenant, which was simply an arrangement for bringing men again into harmony with the divine will, placing them where they could obey God's law. 

Another compact--called in Scripture the "old" covenant--was formed between God and Israel at Sinai, and was then ratified by the blood of a sacrifice. The Abrahamic covenant was ratified by the blood of Christ, and it is called the "second," or "new," covenant, because the blood by which it was sealed was shed after the blood of the first covenant. That the new covenant was valid in the days of Abraham is evident from the fact that it was then confirmed both by the promise and by the oath of God--the "two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie." Hebrews 6:18.  Patriarchs and Prophets 370, 371.
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on February 16, 2010, 01:37:49 PM
Hi Richard,
As usual I rejoice in the questions you raise, but do not agree with all your answers.

Does this statement makes sense to you? The covenant was promised to Adam, established with Abraham, ratified in the blood of Christ and will be fulfilled at the second coming.

You say that salvation is not secured till we are sealed. I may not be quoting you exactly there, but I think that is the intent of your statement.
What then do you make of Paul's statement in Ephesians 1:13-14 that when we believe we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, 'the pleadge of our inheritance'
And in Ephesians 4:30 we exhorted not to grieve the holy Spirit by whom we are sealed for the day of redemption.
The word 'sealed' used here is the same word with the same meaning as in Rev 7:2-3.
True, the sealing of Ephesians is conditional, Heb 6:4-6. 10:26 and especially Matt 31-32, the unpardonable sin. But that is not an in and out experience, it is an in unless you opt out and that opting is irreversible.God takes responsibility for your salvation, but though He never takes away your free will I believe it is harder to be lost than to be saved.
God bless
Ian
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on February 17, 2010, 06:25:06 PM
Hi Richard,
As usual I rejoice in the questions you raise, but do not agree with all your answers.

Does this statement makes sense to you? The covenant was promised to Adam, established with Abraham, ratified in the blood of Christ and will be fulfilled at the second coming.

I think I understand. I would only say that the covenant was initially made with Adam when Jesus promised that He would provide a means  of salvation. It was a promise, was it not? It was a conditional promise or what we can call an agreement or covenant as the Bible calls it. It  was conditioned upon man's acceptance of the Sacrifice. When Christ was crucified, His blood ratified the covenant. The promise is fulfilled each time a sinner is converted.

Quote
You say that salvation is not secured till we are sealed. I may not be quoting you exactly there, but I think that is the intent of your statement. What then do you make of Paul's statement in Ephesians 1:13-14 that when we believe we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, 'the pleadge of our inheritance'
And in Ephesians 4:30 we exhorted not to grieve the holy Spirit by whom we are sealed for the day of redemption. The word 'sealed' used here is the same word with the same meaning as in Rev 7:2-3.
True, the sealing of Ephesians is conditional, Heb 6:4-6. 10:26 and especially Matt 31-32, the unpardonable sin. But that is not an in and out experience, it is an in unless you opt out and that opting is irreversible.God takes responsibility for your salvation, but though He never takes away your free will I believe it is harder to be lost than to be saved.

Forgive me, Brother Ian, I was not very clear. What I was trying to express is that until the final sealing that cannot  be  lost, when a man is settled into the truth where he will not be moved, it is premature to say that one is "saved". It is the common language of the evangelical world that gives salvation to one when he says the sinner's prayer. They commonly teach that the sinner is "saved" and can never be lost. I like to say when we are abiding in Christ, we are in a saved condition, but we are not eternally saved.

Does that help? Thank you for your kind and gentle Spirit.
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Mimi on February 17, 2010, 07:12:26 PM
Quote
I like to say when we are abiding in Christ, we are in a saved condition, but we are not eternally saved.

Richard - would you fine tune that statement, please? I may be misunderstanding something. If we are in a saved condition while abiding in Christ, what keeps us from being eternally saved? Is it the sealing you are referring to at the close of our probation that is the final act of "saving"? If that is your reference, then I do understand.  


Ian said:
Quote
I believe it is harder to be lost than to be saved.

Our brother, Morris Venden, teaches this. I'm not so sure I ever believed it. In my experience, it would be quite easy to be lost if one chose to do it, which I cannot imagine anyone doing.  
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on February 18, 2010, 12:42:25 PM
Sybil,
Thank you for your comment and question.
My somewhat 'tongue in cheek' commenmt that 'it is harder to be lost than to be saved', grows out of Ephesians 1:13-14. When you believed, 'you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise'. Add to that Ephesians 4:30 'Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption'. And then the definition of the unpardonable sin, Matthew 12:32-32, Hebrews 6:4-6. Hebrews 10:10:26.
For me all this adds up to my understanding that salvation is no on and off experience. It is a once only experience, which happens when I accept Jesus and then God takes responsibility for my salvation. This sealing in the Holy Spirit is not the unconditional sealing referred to in Revelation 7 etc, but is nevertheless just as real.
The condition is that I am saved unless I so contuinually reject the Holy Spirit that I become dead to His influence. God can then no longer reach me because I will have lost my sense of sin.
What you think? Is my thinkin valid?
God bless,
Ian
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on February 19, 2010, 10:01:50 AM
Quote
I like to say when we are abiding in Christ, we are in a saved condition, but we are not eternally saved.

Richard - would you fine tune that statement, please? I may be misunderstanding something. If we are in a saved condition while abiding in Christ, what keeps us from being eternally saved? Is it the sealing you are referring to at the close of our probation that is the final act of "saving"? If that is your reference, then I do understand.  

I think it is a matter of understanding how we view the words. Communications is hard at the best of times. It sure makes life more pleasant when we are patient with each other and esteem each other greater than ourselves. Thank you for asking for clarification, dear sister. I am using the term "eternal" in the same manner as "saved".  It is not good to say we are saved, even when in a converted state. It gives influence to the lie that once one is converted, he cannot be lost. It is most a dangerous doctrine. Many believe they are rich and increased with goods, when in fact they are miserable, wretched, poor, blind, and naked. Many of these have never experienced the new birth, but some have and then lose their connection. They manifest the works of the flesh and because of this false doctrine, they then begin to twist other Scripture so that they may have eternal life while sinning.

We have eternal life when we have Christ. But, we are not eternally saved until we are "sealed". That sealing I speak of is the seal that the 144,000 will receive. The other way one may be eternally saved is to die in Christ. This is the situation with most Christians. They will not be translated, but will come up in the first resurrection. We have an example in the Bible of two who were "sealed" in the past, Enoch and Elijah. The were eternally saved while on this earth. They were settled into the truth so that they could not be moved. God took them directly to heaven without tasting death.

These pieces all fit together nicely if we will not ignore portions of Scripture. Ezekiel tells is that if a righteous man turn from his righteousness and sins, God will not remember his righteousness. Romans 8 tells us that "if we have not His Spirit, we are none of His." The disciples give us an interesting example of the reality of how ignorant we are when we come to Christ. They thought they could walk on water without Christ. They did not know their need of Jesus moment by moment, but they learned. They were all converted prior to the cross, but they surely did not maintain their converted state. They wandered in and out of conversion. We must be converted daily. They were converted as they submitted to the Holy Spirit. The night of the Lord's last supper, they came in unconverted. They, all but Judas, walked out converted. Not long after, they lost their connection and abandoned Jesus. Peter was again converted that same night.

It is a very dangerous thing to see ourselves as "saved", eternally saved.  The prize is ever before us and the battle is not over until we are sealed, settled into the truth so that we can never be moved, never sin.

This enters into the new covenant/old covenant teaching. The Jews thought themselves saved. They thought that by their obedience and their sacrifices they were saved. They defined this so that they could be saved in their sins. The new  covenant was not based on obedience. It was an agreement between God and man, that if man would come to Christ, He would give them obedience which would fit man for heaven. Our characters must be changed on this side of heaven. If we wish to be saints in heaven, we must first become saints on earth. This can only happen as we learn of God, as we feed upon Christ. He is the Manna that came down from heaven. As we learn of Him, we are drawn to Him. Love begets love. By beholding we become changed into His character. It is all dependent upon us submitting to Christ, allowing Him to take possession of our minds. It is Christ, not I.

The New Covenant promises to write God's character on our hearts. And what is His character? It is revealed in His law. Therefore, when we have Christ enthroned in the heart, we then manifest His character. That is why we can say "here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus."
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Mimi on February 19, 2010, 01:01:08 PM
Amen - I appreciate the clarification for it is my understanding as well. Thank you. And yes, Ian, your thinking is valid! Bless you brothers.
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on February 24, 2010, 09:50:15 PM
For me all this adds up to my understanding that salvation is no on and off experience. It is a once only experience, which happens when I accept Jesus and then God takes responsibility for my salvation. This sealing in the Holy Spirit is not the unconditional sealing referred to in Revelation 7 etc, but is nevertheless just as real.

This would allow for one to have eternal life when sinning. This cannot be, dear brother. When Moses struck the Rock, when he manifested pride and anger, he did not have God's Spirit. If he did not have God's Spirit, he was not abiding in Christ. No Christ, no salvation. It does not mean that he could not be converted again. He was. His repentance was quick and deep.

There are some who after conversion, spend a lot of time outside of Christ. They have not His Spirit. Some come back and are re-baptized. While they were in the world, they did not have salvation.

Let us look at the disciples prior to the cross. Did they ever possess eternal life? Was the New Covenant promise of writing the law on their hearts ever fulfilled before the cross?

Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on March 06, 2010, 09:10:01 PM

Hi Richard,
I find fault with your logic.
You write: - ‘When Moses struck the Rock, when he manifested pride and anger, he did not have God's Spirit. If he did not have God's Spirit, he was not abiding in Christ. No Christ, no salvation. It does not mean that he could not be converted again’.

Moses did not lose the Holy Spirit.
Repentance is a result of the work of the Holy Spirit.
You cannot repent and find the Holy Spirit again if you do not have the Holy Spirit.

A person only loses the Holy Spirit when he commits the unpardonable sin.
I base this on Matthew 12:31-32 ‘it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come’
To me, that rules out him being converted again.

Hebrews 6:4-6. ‘In the case of those who have once been enlightened….and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance.’
It is impossible because they lost the Holy Spirit and so God cannot reach them.

2 Thessalonians 4:11-12 ‘God will send on them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they may be judged, who did not believe the truth but took pleasure in wickedness.’
When a person loses the Holy Spirit they lose their sense of sin.

I quote a further statement you make:-
‘Let us look at the disciples prior to the cross. Did they ever possess eternal life?
‘Did they possess eternal life?’
I am, not sure what you have in mind here? The disciples were of the faithful remnant of Israel, who accepted Jesus as Messiah.
As faithful Israelites they had God’s promise of eternal life
John 20:22. ‘He breathed on them and said to them, ‘Receive the holy Spirit’. This was before Pentecost.

You ask, ‘Was the New Covenant promise of writing the law on their hearts ever fulfilled before the cross?’

I am not sure what you have in mind by this question, but the answer is, no it wasn’t. The New Covenant came into existence at Pentecost and therefore its promises could not be fulfilled before Pentecost

God bless,
Ian


Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on March 07, 2010, 08:59:45 AM
Good morning, Brother Ian. Thank you for your kind response. It is a blessing to be able to study with you even in our disagreement.
I find fault with your logic.
You write: - ‘When Moses struck the Rock, when he manifested pride and anger, he did not have God's Spirit. If he did not have God's Spirit, he was not abiding in Christ. No Christ, no salvation. It does not mean that he could not be converted again’.

Moses did not lose the Holy Spirit.
Repentance is a result of the work of the Holy Spirit.
You cannot repent and find the Holy Spirit again if you do not have the Holy Spirit.

You are correct in that God expects us to use logic. He says "Come let us reason together." Our understanding of His Word is to be based upon an intelligent understanding. Our faith is not a blind faith, but one based upon fact revealed in both nature and Scripture. So, let us reason together, dear brother. The Holy Spirit is with us. His office is to lead us into truth. Let me better explain my thinking so that you can see that my understanding is indeed logical and based upon God's Word.

The Holy Spirit is moving upon the hearts of men today. There is no need for one to be converted to have access to the Holy Spirit. When Jesus said, "I will draw all men unto me," He was saying that the Holy Spirit would be the means of speaking to men who are not converted as well as those who are. Can we agree on this point? I hope so, for if the Holy Spirit does not speak to the unconverted, then there is  no hope for man. He is the one who leads the sinner to Christ. He is the One who points out sin and righteousness.

Having established that the Holy Spirit speaks to man, there is a difference between knocking on the door of the heart versus entering the heart of man. God wants to come into the heart, not just knock on the door. It is when the Holy Spirit reveals the truth of God's love and man's great need of Christ, that men are brought to point of a full surrender to the Truth, to Jesus. Then the Spirit enters the heart and empowers a human being to obey the truth. It is this point in the life when the New Covenant promise is fulfilled on the law is written on the heart. Can we agree?

I ask about the disciples because we have an example of what I am saying. All of the disciples were converted prior to cross, all except Judas. The law was written on their hearts. All had been not only baptized, but ordained. Yet, because they were once converted did not mean that they could not lose their connection. The Holy Spirit will not stay in the heart of man, if man ceases his hold on Christ. It is not just a matter of "falling away", but a matter of not clinging to Christ.

The truth we are dealing with here is seen clearly in Romans chapter eight where we are told that the difference between him who has life and he who has not life, is the Spirit of God. He has not the Spirit is none of His. When we say this, we mean in the heart. When man sins, he does not have the Spirit within. This does not mean that the Spirit is gone. Where is Jesus when a man sins? Until he can no longer hear the Spirit, Jesus is at the door of the heart wanting back in. The Spirit will not leave a sinner unassisted until there is no hope left for that sinner. That happens when because of continual rejection of truth, the heart is seared to the point of not being able to respond. Then the angels and the Spirit leave that sinner joined to his sins.

Brother Ian, I hope I have given enough information. I am prepared to provide Scripture to support each point I have made hoping that that logic with the aid of the Holy Spirit will prevail.

Again, it is a blessing to study this subject with you.




Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on March 08, 2010, 12:16:40 PM
Hi Richard,
Sorry I got myself a bit mixed up with posts here, posting my message twice it seems.
Thanks for your reply. I like your logic this time. I thoroughly agree with almost all of your points.
Just one where I would question you conclusions.
You write:-
    'I ask about the disciples because we have an example of what I am       saying. All of the disciples were converted prior to cross, all except Judas. The law was written on their hearts. All had been not only baptized, but ordained.'

My understanding is that the law written on the heart is unique to a New Covenant experience and this did not happen till Pentecost. John 7:38-39.

I see the Holy Spirit as the active member of the Godhead who works directly with humans. He had a special relationship with the Hebrews and that relationship is even more special with Christians
It does not mean He is absent from the heathen, as Mrs White brings out in DA where she refers to a heathen with no knowledge of Jesus as being able to be brought to a saving relationship through response to the workings of the Holy Spirit.

I would be interested in your Biblical references to the disciples having a New Covenant experience of the law written in their hearts before Pentecost.
God bless,
Ian
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on March 09, 2010, 12:12:59 PM
Hi Richard,
I have been thinking about our exhanges on this topic. I have found them interesting and helpful, but to what purpose?
For me the challenge of the New Covenant is what is God's purpose, and how does He provide for its fulfillment?
I would see a starting point in Ephesians 4:11-16 and 'Great Controversy'
pp389-390, the references to the image of Christ.
What do you think?
Ian
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on March 10, 2010, 02:51:10 PM
My understanding is that the law written on the heart is unique to a New Covenant experience and this did not happen till Pentecost. John 7:38-39.

I see the Holy Spirit as the active member of the Godhead who works directly with humans. He had a special relationship with the Hebrews and that relationship is even more special with Christians
It does not mean He is absent from the heathen, as Mrs White brings out in DA where she refers to a heathen with no knowledge of Jesus as being able to be brought to a saving relationship through response to the workings of the Holy Spirit.

I would be interested in your Biblical references to the disciples having a New Covenant experience of the law written in their hearts before Pentecost.

When Paul talks about the "New Covenant" he does so in relationship to a whole nation that was steeped in legalism based upon a false teaching that keeping the law as given at Sinai would earn them salvation. God had entered into an agreement with them that if they would keep His law, they would have life. Of course not knowing they needed help to keep the law, they failed. The Old Covenant had no power in the law, but it did include the ceremonial law that would reveal how to obtain life. They perverted the plan of salvation that provided a Sacrifice for them that that might have life. The sanctuary and its services were to teach that God's Son would die in their place. If they would accept Christ as their Sacrifice, He would come into their hearts and give them power to obey the law of God.

One of the texts that comes to mind, dear brother, is Ezekiel 36:25-27. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.  

This is one of many promises where God reveals that through His Spirit He will come into the heart, making it new, and giving power to keep His law (statutes and judgments). To write the law on the heart is precisely what Paul meant when he compared the Old Covenant, keeping the "letter of the law" versus the Spirit of the Law.  The legalists kept the letter of the law and thought it would gain them life, but the terms of the New Covenant, a better covenant based on better promises, provided a Savior whose blood would ratify it. Paul tells us when Jesus comes into the heart, then we keep the law from the heart, not just outward forms. This is the only means of salvation. The Jew was saved the same way we are today, by the blood of Christ. Adam knew this, Abraham knew this, David knew this, and they all were saved by the blood of Christ, not by the blood of bulls or goats. The Old Covenant provided a system of sacrifices that taught the plan of salvation which was and always has been, justification by faith in the atoning blood of Christ. There is no other name under heaven whereby any man can be saved. Not then, not now. Never could man save himself by his good works. By faith in the righteousness of Christ, Enoch walked with God. So it may be today. The righteousness of Christ is the only power to save. He offers this to us just as He offered it to Abraham. When Enoch walked with God it was Christ, not Enoch. The law of God was written on Enoch's heart. That is to say, he obeyed from the heart because Christ was enthroned upon His heart.  "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalm 40:8

When the principle of love is implanted in the heart, when man is renewed after the image of Him that created him, the new-covenant promise is fulfilled, "I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." Hebrews 10:16. And if the law is written in the heart, will it not shape the life? Obedience--the service and allegiance of love--is the true sign of discipleship. Thus the Scripture says, "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments." "He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 5:3; 2:4. Instead of releasing man from obedience, it is faith, and faith only, that makes us partakers of the grace of Christ, which enables us to render obedience.  We do not earn salvation by our obedience; for salvation is the free gift of God, to be received by faith. But obedience is the fruit of faith. "Ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him." 1 John 3:5, 6.

Again, Brother Ian, it is a blessing to study these most beautiful thoughts with you. Christ is our study and always will be! He is everything to us! When we obey from the heart, it is Christ, not I.  :)


Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on March 12, 2010, 09:55:00 PM
Hi Richard,

You write:-
   ‘Then the Spirit enters the heart and empowers a human being to obey the truth. It is this point in the life when the New Covenant promise is fulfilled on the law is written on the heart. Can we agree?’

Richard I agree wholeheartedly with that statement, the issue I have with you over this matter is as to when this happens

You write:-
   ‘All of the disciples were converted prior to cross, all except Judas. The law was written on their hearts’

The Biblical reference you site in support of your position is Ezekiel 36:25-27. This does not specify the time when, ‘a new heart also will I give you and a new spirit will I put within you’.

Its companion Old Testament reference is Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:8-12 quotes this passage as the New Covenant instituted after the death of Christ.
See also Hebrews 9:11-14 ‘the blood of Christ’ will ‘cleanse you conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

This is corroborated in John 7:37-39 where John writes that the promise to the believer that ‘from his innermost being will flow rivers of living water’, was the promise of the Spirit, ‘who was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified’.

It is recorded in Acts 2:33 that as a result of Jesus’ resurrection and exaltation, the Holy Spirit was poured out on the day of Pentecost. 

How do you read the passages I have quoted?
God bless,
Ian
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on March 16, 2010, 04:26:37 PM
My intent was to reveal that the law was written on hearts prior to New Testament times. Conversion is the same before and after the cross. There is no life without Christ in the heart. When Adam killed and offered the very first lamb, it was to reveal the love of God to Him. It was to reveal that God would allow Christ to die in Adam's place. This was to bring Adam to repentance and reconcile him to God. When this happened Adam was a new creation in Christ Jesus. He was changed from the inside out. He was given a new heart and the Spirit of God. This is the new birth. Then the law is written on the heart. No difference between Old Testament salvation and New Testament salvation. Both were dependent upon death to self and a full surrender to God. The Spirit was active before Pentecost. It was by the Spirit that truth was given to all men. The Third Person of the godhead was alive and well before Pentecost. Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness. Isaiah 41:10. God was with all through His Spirit.

Psalm
51:10   Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
51:11   Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
51:12   Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. 

In the days of Isaiah the Holy Spirit was working to write God's law upon the hearts of men:

Isaiah
63:10   But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, [and] he fought against them. 
63:11   Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, [and] his people, [saying], Where [is] he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where [is] he that put his holy Spirit within him?

Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit well in advance of Pentecost as something that the disciple could have then,  not after Pentecost:

Luke
11:13   If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? 

The Holy Spirit is God. He is the only thing that gives power to do good. Unless He comes into the heart of man, there is nothing good in man. All is selfishness. This is from Adam to our day. Nothing has changed in regards to the nature of fallen man, nor the need of His Spirit. The Spirit of God pointed all to the cross before the death of Jesus and after His death and resurrection the Spirit points us back to the cross. It is our only hope, just as it was the only hope of all before the cross. Adam needed the Spirit in His heart just as we need Him in our hearts today. When He comes, He empowers us to keep the law of God, both before and after Pentecost.

Thank you for asking, Dear Brother Ian. I hope I have answered your questions. If not, I will try again. :)
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: ian rankin on March 18, 2010, 10:01:16 PM
Hi Richard,
I agree that the Holy Spirit has always been present and there would be no possibility of salvation without Him.
What do you understand to be the significance of the Day of Pentecost?
Beginning with Passover, each feast symbolised a successive act of God
when He would step into human history.
What part of the plan of salvation, following on from Calvary, is symbolised in the Day of Pentecost?
What did Peter understand it as bringing about?
God bless,
Ian
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on March 22, 2010, 11:28:30 AM
Dear Brother Ian, let me see if I can give a brief summation.


(http://remnant-online.com/Images/feasts.jpg)


I see in the Passover a representation of Jesus the Lamb that was to be slain and the power of His blood to cleanse from all sin. I see in the Day of Atonement the opening of the judgment of man, the final cleansing of sinners and the blotting out of their sins in the heavenly sanctuary, and the banishment of Satan to wander on a forsaken earth until his time of destruction. I see in the Feast of Tabernacles which immediately followed the Day of Atonement, a celebration of the harvest of souls. Pentecost, which was 50 days after the Passover was celebrated as a symbol of the provision God had made to establish the church through the power of the Holy Spirit. In answer to prayer, God would respond with power, supernatural power working through His church. He would bring great light and power to reveal Jesus in humanity as a witness of His character. Pentecost was the "former rain" and only a portion of what would happen with the "Latter Rain" which would finish the harvest just prior to close of the Day of Atonement. Pentecost would establish the church and the Day of Atonement would complete the church, presenting to the world and the universe, the glory of God in His people.

Pentecost is very revealing of the New Covenant experience because it is the power of the Living God working through sinful human flesh. It is Christ, not I. It is the law written on the heart by the Holy Ghost that is seen at Pentecost. While the Spirit was always in the world, it was seldom acknowledged. Even today we find the same situation in His church. But, the law without the Spirit does not bring salvation. Paul was trying very hard to make this point when teaching on the covenants. The law brings condemnation, Christ through the Holy Spirit bring life. By supernatural power, an abundance of it, God was revealed in fallen flesh on the Day of Pentecost. The church was established.

Peter saw the works of the Spirit as the fulfillment of prophecy: But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams." 
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on March 22, 2010, 11:29:39 AM
Here is a good overview of Pentecost:

After filling the vacancy in the apostolic number, the disciples gave their time to meditation and prayer, being often in the temple, testifying of Christ, and praising God. The Pentecost was a feast celebrated seven weeks after the passover. Upon these occasions the Jews were required to repair to the temple and to present the first-fruits of all the harvest, thus acknowledging their dependence on the great Giver of all good, and their obligation to render back to God, in gifts and offerings to sustain his cause, that which he had entrusted to them. On this day of divine appointment, the Lord graciously poured out his Spirit on the little company of believers, who were the first-fruits of the Christian church. 

"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." The Holy Ghost assuming the form of tongues of fire divided at the tips, and resting upon those assembled, was an emblem of the gift which was bestowed upon them of speaking with fluency several different languages, with which they had formerly been unacquainted; and the appearance of fire signified the fervent zeal with which they would labor, and the power which would attend their words.
 
Under this heavenly illumination, the scriptures which Christ had explained to them, stood forth in their minds with the vivid luster and loveliness of clear and powerful truth. The vail which had prevented them from seeing the end of that which was abolished was now removed, and the object of Christ's mission and the nature of his kingdom were comprehended with perfect clearness. 

The Jews had been scattered to almost every nation, and spoke various languages. They had come long distances to Jerusalem, and had temporarily taken up their abode there, to remain through the religious festivals then in progress, and to observe their requirements. When assembled, they were of every known tongue. This diversity of languages was a great obstacle to the labors of God's servants in publishing the doctrine of Christ to the uttermost parts of the earth. That God should supply the deficiency of the apostles in a miraculous manner was to the people the most perfect confirmation of the testimony of these witnesses for Christ. The Holy Spirit had done for them that which they could not have accomplished for themselves in a lifetime; they could now spread the truth of the gospel abroad, speaking with accuracy the language of those for whom they were laboring. This miraculous gift was the highest evidence they could present to the world that their commission bore the signet of Heaven. 

The priests and rulers were greatly enraged at this wonderful manifestation, which was reported throughout all Jerusalem and its vicinity; but they dared not give way to their malice, for fear of exposing themselves to the hatred of the people. They had put the Master to death, but here were his servants, unlearned men of Galilee, tracing out the wonderful fulfillment of prophecy, and teaching the doctrine of Jesus in all the languages then spoken. They spoke with power of the wonderful works of the Saviour, and unfolded to their hearers the plan of salvation in the mercy and sacrifice of the Son of God. Their words convicted and converted thousands who listened. The traditions and superstitions inculcated by the priests were swept away from their minds, and they accepted the pure teachings of the Word of God.

The priests and rulers, determined to account for the miraculous power of the disciples in some natural way, declared that they were simply drunken from partaking largely of the new wine prepared for the feast. Some of the most ignorant seized this suggestion as the truth; but the more intelligent knew that it was false; and those speaking the different languages testified to the accuracy with which they were used by the disciples. And Peter, in answer to the vile accusation of the priests, addressed the assembly in these words:--

"Ye men of Judea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words; for these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams." 

The effect of Peter's words was very marked; and many who had ridiculed the religion of Jesus were now convinced of its truth. It was certainly unreasonable to suppose that more than one hundred persons should become intoxicated at that unseasonable hour of the day, and on the occasion of a solemn religious festival. This wonderful demonstration was before the customary meal at which wine was taken. Peter showed them that this manifestation was the direct fulfillment of the prophecy of Joel, wherein he foretold that such power would come upon men of God to fit them for a special work. 
 
Peter traced back the lineage of Christ in a direct line to the honorable house of David. He did not use any of the teachings of Jesus to prove his true position, because he knew their prejudices were so great that it would be of no effect. But he referred them to David, whom the Jews regarded as a venerable patriarch of their nation. 
 
On that memorable occasion, large numbers who had heretofore ridiculed the idea of so unpretending a person as Jesus being the Son of God, became thoroughly convinced of the truth, and acknowledged him as their Saviour. Three thousand souls were added to the church. The apostles spoke by the power of the  Holy Ghost; and their words could not be controverted, for they were confirmed by mighty miracles, wrought by them through the outpouring of the Spirit of God. The disciples were themselves astonished at the results of this visitation, and the quick and abundant harvest of souls. All the people were filled with amazement. Those who did not yield their prejudice and bigotry were so over-awed that they dared not by voice or violence attempt to stay the mighty work, and, for the time being, their opposition ceased. 

This testimony in regard to the establishment of the Christian church is given us, not only as an important portion of sacred history, but also as a lesson. All who profess the name of Christ should be waiting, watching, and praying with one heart. All differences should be put away, and unity and tender love one for another pervade the whole. Then our prayers may go up together to our Heavenly Father with strong, earnest faith. Then we may wait with patience and hope the fulfillment of the promise.

The answer may come with sudden velocity and overpowering might; or it may be delayed for days and weeks, and our faith receive a trial. But God knows how and when to answer our prayer. It is our part of the work to put ourselves in connection with the divine channel. God is responsible for his part of the work. He is faithful who hath promised. The great and important matter with us is to be of one heart and mind, putting aside all envy and malice, and, as humble supplicants, to watch and wait. Jesus, our Representative and Head, is ready to do for us what he did for the praying, watching ones on the day of Pentecost. 

Jesus is as willing to impart courage and grace to his followers today as he was to the disciples of the early church. None should rashly invite an opportunity to battle with the principalities and powers of darkness. When God bids them engage in the conflict it will be time enough; he will then give the weak and hesitating boldness and utterance beyond their hope or expectation. 

The same scorn and hatred that was manifested against Christ may be seen now to exist against those whom he has evidently chosen to be his co-workers. Those whose spirits rise up against the doctrines of truth make hard work for the servants of Christ. But God will make their wrath to praise him; they accomplish his purpose by stirring up minds to investigate the truth. God may allow men to follow their own wicked inclinations for a time, in opposing him; but when he sees it is for his glory, and the good of his people, he will arrest the scorners, expose their presumptive course, and give triumph to his truth.

The arguments of the apostles alone, although clear and convincing, would not have removed the prejudice of the Jews which had withstood so much evidence. But the Holy Ghost sent those arguments home with divine power to their hearts. They were as sharp arrows of the Almighty, convicting them of their terrible guilt in rejecting and crucifying the Lord of glory. "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." 

The disciples and apostles of Christ had a deep sense of their own inefficiency, and with humiliation and prayer they joined their weakness to his strength, their ignorance to his wisdom, their unworthiness to his righteousness, their poverty to his inexhaustible wealth. Thus strengthened and equipped they hesitated not in the service of their Master.

Peter urged home upon the convicted people the fact that they had rejected Christ because they had been deceived by the priests and rulers; and if they continued to look to them for counsel, and waited for those leaders to acknowledge Christ before they dared to do so, they would never accept him. Those powerful men, although they made a profession of sanctity, were ambitious, and zealous for riches and earthly glory. They would never come to Christ to receive light. Jesus had foretold a terrible retribution to come upon that people for their obstinate unbelief, notwithstanding the most powerful evidences given them that Jesus was the Son of God. 

"Then they that gladly received his word were baptized; and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. And fear came upon every soul; and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles." 

From this time forth the language of the disciples was pure, simple, and accurate in word and accent, whether they spoke their native tongue or a foreign language. These humble men, who had never learned in the school of the prophets, presented truths so elevated and pure as to astonish those who heard them. They could not go personally to the uttermost parts of the earth; but there were men at the feast from every quarter of the world, and the truths received by them were carried to their various homes, and published among their people, winning souls to Christ.  7Red 11
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on March 22, 2010, 11:30:20 AM
Brother Ian, I see Pentecost as the answer to the Jews refusal to look past their exaltation of the "law". They thought they exalted the law of God, both moral and ceremonial, but they did not understand that the spirituality of the law. The law extends to the intent of the heart, not just outward actions. It was God's desire to write the law on the heart, thus revealing a new creature from the inside out. The Jews, as with all humans, do not see their need to be re-created, not until the law comes home to the heart. The law is intended to condemn the sinner, to reveal our need of a Saviour. This was the purpose of what Paul called the "Old Covenant" or the "First Covenant". Its purpose was to reveal the need of a Saviour. The Jews agreed to keep the law, but did not understand their inability to do so until they died to self. Instead of seeing their need, they made a mockery of the system of ceremonies that God had provided to teach them of His love and His great sacrifice to be made that they might be reconciled to Him.  They set about to keep the law in their own strength which is impossible. They saw they could not keep the law in their own power, when shortly after saying they would, they held an orgy and made a golden calf. Not all the Jews were misled. Some understood that the ceremonial law pointed to Christ and His sacrifice. David understood. He knew His need of divine help. He saw that he was undone in and of himself.

On the Day of Pentecost, all were united in prayer that God would send the Holy Spirit to empower them to reveal Christ. They saw their sins and understood their need. That today we too would plead for help!

We too, need to study the character of the motives that prompt us to action in the light of the law of God, in order that we may be made aware of our deficiencies; but while the human agent may see his sins, he is not to become discouraged, although he finds himself condemned by the precepts of righteousness. He is to see and to realize the sinfulness of sin, to repent, and to have faith in Christ as his personal Saviour. It is never safe for us to feel that we are possessed of virtues, and that we may congratulate ourselves on our excellences of character, and our present state of purity and piety. David often triumphed in God, and yet he dwelt much upon his own unworthiness and sinfulness. His conscience was not asleep or dead. "My sin," he cries, "is ever before me." He did not flatter himself that sin was a matter with which he had nothing to do, and that should not concern him. As he saw the depths of deceit in his heart, he was deeply disgusted with himself, and prayed that God would keep him back by his power from the presumptuous sins, and cleanse him from secret faults.
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Donna H on July 01, 2010, 12:52:36 PM
Looking at the different covenants, I'm seeing the same shared elements in all of them: grace, faith, commandments, sacrifice for sin, promises, the love of God, His help. So I've been wondering, what is really different about the new covenant. We don't have the temple system in shadow, but we have it in antitype.

When Eve listened to the enemy, and believed what he said about God, and ate of the fruit, she sinned twice, right? She first believed the lies being told, which took her out of belief in God, then directly disobeyed His command, because believing lies about God set her on a selfish path.

Well, Adam, while he had reluctance, and did what he did out of love for Eve, was really no different. At first, I thought that his love was self-sacrificing, that he gave up his life for Eve. But that was wrong. He gave up his live to be with Eve, which is very different. He was selfishly motivated, and was willing to comprimise God's commandment even though he may not have believed the lies from the serpants devious mouth.

“I saw a sadness come over Adam's countenance. He appeared afraid and astonished. A struggle seemed to be going on in his mind. He felt sure that this was the foe against whom they had been warned, and that his wife must die. They must be separated. His love for Eve was strong, and in utter discouragement he resolved to share her fate. He seized the fruit and quickly ate it.” EW 148.2

He wanted to be with Eve. So Eve's sin, immediatly brought selfishness to Adam's heart. Adam may not have believed what the enemy lied about God, but he was still self-focused when presented with this challege and distress. He loved Eve more than he loved God.

**
On an off-shoot: I was just reading the thread on divorce. What would have been the right thing for Adam to do? Well, obey God, even though Eve had now entered death. I wonder how things would have been different.

“Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three” (Luke 12: 51,52).

Would they have been divided, now unevenly yoked as believer and unbeliever?
**

The reason Jesus had to be the sacrifice, and no angel, or any other, would have been able to accomplish what Jesus did on the cross, though willing and obedient unto the death, is because God's name is what needed to be vindicated in the heart of these newfound sinners, and those who followed, who believed the lies about God. But their hearts are hardened in unbelief now. If an angle had taken His place, God would have been seen as self-preserving. He would have been seen as willing that another should die. He would have been seen exactly how the enemy portrayed Him. Any sacrifice other than God would not be seen as genuine. God's character had to be demonstrated before eyes that were now dulled and corrupt, so that they would believe that God is not selfish, that He is not self-preserving, and that He is not willing that any should die. So He gave Himself.

Jesus came that we might believe. The disciples fell in love with Jesus, and then believed that the Father sent Him. They came to know and trust the character of the Father through Jesus, and it took them a long time. But it took the cross to really understand:

“He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him” (John 1:7),

"Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me” (John 17:7,8).  
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Donna H on July 01, 2010, 12:55:09 PM
Adam's and Eve's “unbelief” regarding who God truly is, caused them to act selfishly and choose to sin. They now reflected their corrupted belief of who they now thought God was: self-focused, a lier and looking out for Himself: “The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die! For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."  

The same with the Israelites: “And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief” (Hebrews 3:18,19).  Unbelief leads to disobedience. It is a reflection of the lies believed about God, and the veil in our own minds that keeps us distant from Him, out of the holy place.

So, Jesus in is His condescention, and His sacrifice and what it accomplished, and, it seems, the call to us for self-sacrifice, is the difference. He corrects our unbelief.

“Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water” (Hebrews 10:19-22).  

Jesus came that we might believe, and reconciled us to God through a renewed belief in the character of God. He reconciled us through His death, the ultimate self-sacrifice of Life itself, showing us what He is willing to do, what His will is, “not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance”.

“And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach--” (Colossians 1:21,22).

Just the fact that we believe cleanses us. Our belief unites us together with Him:

“But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 2:4-7).

We are joined to Him through Christ, and are able to enter with Christ into the holy place and be in the presence of the Father. We have been allowed intimacy with God. We took the first step through faith. Believing who He is through Christ's example and demonstration of self-sacrifice, we now, “with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit” ( 1Corinthians 3:18).

And we fall deeply in love with the beauthy that unfolds before us. Every law that seemed a threatening rule becomes our eager pleasure. Through our restored belief and reconciliation, we know Him. And in knowing Him, we know His great love. It just gets better and better. Knowing and growing in His great love, we know true freedom, and are blessed with and by real life. But David knew this before the new covenant. Is that because he was a prophet?
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Donna H on July 01, 2010, 12:58:19 PM
“The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly” (John 10:10).  

We have this.

We realize that His law is life, but only by loving Him, which means receiving Him, which =  faith. It's a beautiful circle of ever expanding and deepening love as we are unfolded in His beauty and wonder, and brought ever nearer to Him as our minds are unveiled to the reality of who God truly is. Serving Him is an absolute pleasure, because we know now what it means. It means the best love possible or imaginable.

This is what it means: “This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people” (Hebrew 8:10).

This is what it means: “And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence. And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God” (Ezekiel 11:18-20).

This is what it means: “Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren” (1John 3:16).   (This passage can be read as first perceiving the love of God because He laid His life down. Or it can be read that because He laid His life down, we were reconciled, and then able to perceive the love of God).

And: “No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us” (1John 4:12).  

His love is perfected in us; His law is absolute freedom and delight. In reconciling us to God, He has reconciled us to the law, and not by duty or mere decision, but by and in love.

It's such a beautiful relaxation, and our ultimate rest, to love Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit with a once stony heart made soft and warm (and vulnerable, but so safe with God) as flesh.

As we are attached to ourselves and the world, the idea of self-sacrifice is daunting and frightening. But as we are immersed deeper into the heart of God, which is our true baptism - “He that believeth and is baptized  (in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, which is being “immersed” in the character of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, which is breathing, seeing, and living the  love of God, which is being “in” Jesus as He is “in” the Father. Our baptism isn't an event, but truly a new life "in" Christ) shall be saved”  - self-sacrifice becomes a closer walk with God, and we are willing to “love not ourselves unto death”, because more and more we love God.

The Israelites were called to love God and love their neighbor, but were they called to self-sacrifice? Were they called to follow that model? Is this new for children of the new covenant? I know Abraham and Isaac were called to sacrifice. Jacob sacrificed himself in His struggle with God. But what about the Israelites? I guess they were called to sacrifice their lusts in obeying the 10 commandments, and especially the priests, in the time they spent ministering for the people and the fact that they had no earthly inheritance.

?

Any help or thoughts?

Maybe there's nothing entirely new or different, except better help to draw near to God.

God bless,
Donna
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on July 23, 2010, 11:26:16 AM
Adam's and Eve's “unbelief” regarding who God truly is, caused them to act selfishly and choose to sin. They now reflected their corrupted belief of who they now thought God was: self-focused, a lier and looking out for Himself: “The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die! For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."  

The same with the Israelites: “And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief” (Hebrews 3:18,19).  Unbelief leads to disobedience. It is a reflection of the lies believed about God, and the veil in our own minds that keeps us distant from Him, out of the holy place.

So, Jesus in is His condescention, and His sacrifice and what it accomplished, and, it seems, the call to us for self-sacrifice, is the difference. He corrects our unbelief.

“Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water” (Hebrews 10:19-22).  

Jesus came that we might believe, and reconciled us to God through a renewed belief in the character of God. He reconciled us through His death, the ultimate self-sacrifice of Life itself, showing us what He is willing to do, what His will is, “not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance”.

“And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach--” (Colossians 1:21,22).

Just the fact that we believe cleanses us. Our belief unites us together with Him:

Amen!  Yes, we believe, but more important, since the devils believe, we have no "unbelief". There is no greater sin than unbelief. The devils have unbelief even though they believe.  You have come to an important understanding, Donna. The problem is with unbelief. We must believe with the whole heart, not just a part of it. Unbelief shows a lack of faith in God and His promises.

Quote
And we fall deeply in love with the beauthy that unfolds before us. Every law that seemed a threatening rule becomes our eager pleasure. Through our restored belief and reconciliation, we know Him. And in knowing Him, we know His great love. It just gets better and better. Knowing and growing in His great love, we know true freedom, and are blessed with and by real life. But David knew this before the new covenant. Is that because he was a prophet?

Grace is everything. God's love is what moves us. We have a topic on The New Covenant Experience (http://remnant-online.com/smf/index.php?topic=813.0). It is not an easy subject. It is not "milk" but rather meat.  You are in a position to understand the difference between the old and new covenants. Let's continue this in that topic in the Bread of Life Forum.  The new covenant is the same as the everlasting covenant. That is why David knew of it and had the law written upon his heart. Abraham knew, Adam knew, Abel knew, Enoch knew, Elijah knew, Ezekiel knew, Solomon knew, and yes, King David knew. They all knew Jesus Christ as the "lamb of God".

{These posts were moved into this thread from another topic. RM}
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Mimi on September 11, 2010, 08:59:31 PM
I listened to a sermon today on The Sermon on the Mount. Throughout it, you will note Jesus' words:

Matthew 5:21, 22: "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time ... But I say unto you ..."

Verses 27 & 28: "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time ... But I say unto you ..."

Verses 31 & 32: "It hath been said ... But I say unto you ..."

Verses 33 & 34: "Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time ... But I say unto you ..."

Verses 38 & 39: "Ye have heard that it hath been said ... "But I say unto you ..."

Verses 43 & 44: Ye have heard that it hath been said ... But I say unto you ..."

Although I have read that sermon many times, this next thought did not truly register. In this most important sermon, Jesus was setting the stage for the imminent end of the old covenant and the implementation of the new. I had not looked at the Sermon on the Mount in that way in the past and others may take it for granted it is true. It was a very nice revelation. 

Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on October 23, 2010, 05:16:42 PM
Amen!!!  The Jews were steeped in Old Covenant theology. They had no idea that they were saved by grace. They really thought that sacrificing a lamb was going to earn them a right to heaven. They did not know they were dead in trespasses and sins. They thought that if they kept the law they had earned their right to heaven.
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Mimi on October 23, 2010, 05:37:53 PM
Quote
They had no idea that they were saved by grace.
Even though Adam knew it, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, even Enoch knew it.
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on October 23, 2010, 05:47:05 PM
Amen!  Sadly many do not understand that the lessons were learned early on.  Instruction was given as to what the symbolism represented.  Satan brought in lies and perverted the teaching just as he has today.  It got so perverted that even though John the Baptist had said "Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world" he did not understand that the Lamb would have to die.
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Peter L on March 02, 2013, 10:10:55 PM
Exodus 34:28 KJV
(28) And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
Exodus 24:7-8 KJV
(7)  And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.
( 8 )  And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

First the old covenant was given then they used blood

Hebrews 9:12 KJV
(12) Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Then with the new covenant, first the covenant was given then was the blood. The new covenant was sealed with the blood of Christ. The old used the blood of animals while the new the blood of Christ. So then according to the verses the old covenant is the 10 commandments covered by the blood of animals the new is the 10 commandments covered by the blood of Christ. Mercy and truth.

Psalms 89:14 KJV
(14) Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: wigina on June 17, 2013, 09:19:07 PM
A covenant with the soul for the covenant with the body failed. God shows us so. For now we are not to think about satans lie to make filthy our bodies for that is the only part He has control of But to give our souls to Christ for that is the part we are in control of. If then Jesus is in control of our soul He will put His Holy of Holies in our souls so that we do not have to wait a whole year to seek for true forgiveness. But everyday nay every second like Enoch we can seek forgiveness. And when we are able to do this sin shall flee away and his place will not be found in us. That, is the beauty of the new commandment. And oh! Doesn't the Lords commandment dwell graciously in the Holy of Holies.........
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on January 14, 2015, 05:53:27 AM
This is an important subject, not so much because one must understand to be saved, but because of the error that has been taught. As we learn more about the covenants, we not only gain a better knowledge of God  and the plan of salvation, we are better protected from the lies that have come into the church. They are on every hand. The "omega" of apostasy will lead many astray, but a correct understanding of the covenants will protect us from this great deception.
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on January 14, 2015, 06:24:35 AM
Quote
They had no idea that they were saved by grace.
Even though Adam knew it, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, even Enoch knew it.

Under which covenant were they saved?
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on January 14, 2015, 06:32:11 AM

We are joined to Him through Christ, and are able to enter with Christ into the holy place and be in the presence of the Father. We have been allowed intimacy with God. We took the first step through faith. Believing who He is through Christ's example and demonstration of self-sacrifice, we now, “with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit” ( 1Corinthians 3:18).

And we fall deeply in love with the beauty that unfolds before us. Every law that seemed a threatening rule becomes our eager pleasure. Through our restored belief and reconciliation, we know Him. And in knowing Him, we know His great love. It just gets better and better. Knowing and growing in His great love, we know true freedom, and are blessed with and by real life. But David knew this before the new covenant. Is that because he was a prophet?

No, the new covenant is not the first covenant of grace. All who have been saved were saved by grace, many years before the death of Christ. It is our privilege to understand the covenant under which salvation was granted to them. It was not the old covenant. It promised death to all who broke the law. The new covenant was a better covenant based upon better promises. Let our scholars find the covenant that promised life to King David.
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Mimi on January 14, 2015, 09:51:31 AM
Quote
They had no idea that they were saved by grace.
Even though Adam knew it, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, even Enoch knew it.

Under which covenant were they saved?

The everlasting covenant first stated in Genesis:

Gen 3:15  And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

 The divine sentence pronounced against Satan after the fall of man, was also a prophecy, embracing all the ages to the close of time, and foreshadowing the great conflict to engage all the races of men who should live upon the earth. 4SP, 325
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on January 14, 2015, 12:09:28 PM
Amen, Mimi!  But, I fear that many will not understand how this can be a covenant to save man. Does it compare to the Old Covenant made at Sinai, or the New Covenant which was ratified by the blood of Christ?
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Mimi on January 14, 2015, 12:26:49 PM
The everlasting covenant and the new covenant (ratified by the blood of Christ Jesus) are the same in that a way was made for the salvation of mankind.

The old Sinai covenant contained "obey and live" at the same time the wilderness tabernacle was built to show them a better covenant was on the way.

Maybe this will help:

    God . . . gave them [Israel] His law, with the promise of great blessings on condition of obedience: "If ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then . . . ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation." Exodus 19:5, 6. The people did not realize the sinfulness of their own hearts, and that without Christ it was impossible for them to keep God's law; and they readily entered into covenant with God. Feeling that they were able to establish their own righteousness, they declared, "All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient." Exodus 24:7. They had witnessed the proclamation of the law in awful majesty, and had trembled with terror before the mount; and yet only a few weeks passed before they broke their covenant with God, and bowed down to worship a graven image. They could not hope for the favor of God through a covenant which they had broken; and now, seeing their sinfulness and their need of pardon, they were brought to feel their need of the Saviour revealed in the Abrahamic covenant, and shadowed forth in the sacrificial offerings. . . .  {FLB 78.3} 
     The terms of the "old covenant" were, Obey and live: "If a man do, he shall even live in them;" but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them." Ezekiel 20:11; Leviticus 18:5; Deuteronomy 27:26. The "new covenant" was established upon "better promises"--the promise of forgiveness of sins, and of the grace of God to renew the heart, and bring it into harmony with the principles of God's law.  {FLB 78.4} 
     The only means of salvation is provided under the Abrahamic covenant.  
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Ed Sutton on January 14, 2015, 04:01:38 PM
Gen 3:15 the original covenant of the righteousness of Christ, and the old covenant sinners promise to God in Eden before expulsion ='s what the people said at Sinai "we will obey" (in our own strength & righteousness ), and the new covenant > God would write His law in the heart so the people would obey in His strength and His righteousness. and not seek to establish their own righteousness by creature merits.
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on January 14, 2015, 05:39:11 PM
Amen and amen!  The "old covenant" was obey and live. The covenant made in Genesis, known as the "everlasting covenant" was the same as the "new covenant". It promised to change man, to give him a power to obey the law. Man does not have power to obey the law in and of himself. At Sinai, when Israel promised to obey God, they were ignorant of their evil fallen nature. They could do no good thing unless they would be converted. But, this they did not understand until they broke the covenant.  Even then, they did not really understand how evil they were by nature. How is it today? Many think that they do not need to keep the law, that God will overlook their "little sins". How many believe that God can cleanse them of all sin? Well....that is the promise of the everlasting covenant and the new covenant, but not the old covenant.

We need a better explanation of the everlasting covenant so that it is made plain how the covenant works. Can someone explain?
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Ed Sutton on January 15, 2015, 08:34:59 AM
Quote
We need a better explanation of the everlasting covenant so that it is made plain how the covenant works. Can someone explain?

2nd Peter chapter 1:   - John chapter 17:  - Psalms 32:

2nd Peter 1:

1 ¶  Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

“to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:” 

Obtaining is not the same as already owning, obtaining is going to the owner and either against their will forcibly taking some of what they exclusively have and you seek, or with their permission and assistance getting some from them.

The context is stating that through the holy right doing and benevolence merits of God and right doing and benevolence merits of Jesus the like precious faith is given, upheld, cultivated in a person to achieve the mission of Father God & Christ via the implanting of this measure of faith via the Holy Ghost representing Christ’s interests within the person.   Notice - Romans 12:3  For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.   

This is IMPUTED and IMPARTED . 

Imputed means only God can create it, and only God can implant it in a creature.  Imparted means that God gives and implants what He has made into a person, as, or while, as long as, they are walking with Him.

2  Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,


 knowledge <1922> of God

Knowledge herein refers to knowing and union and partnership.  Consider how Scripture uses <1922>
Romans 1:28  And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge <1922>, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Romans 3:20  Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge <1922> of sin.
Romans 10:2  For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge <1922>.
Ephesians 1:17  That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge <1922> of him:
Ephesians 4:13  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge <1922> of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Philippians 1:9  And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge <1922> and in all judgment;
Colossians 1:9  For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge <1922> of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
Colossians 1:10  That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge <1922> of God;
Colossians 2:2  That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement <1922> of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
Colossians 3:10  And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge <1922> after the image of him that created him:
1 Timothy 2:4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge <1922> of the truth.
2 Timothy 2:25  In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging <1922> of the truth;
2 Timothy 3:7  Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge <1922> of the truth.
Titus 1:1  Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging <1922> of the truth which is after godliness;
Philemon 1:6  That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging <1922> of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus.
Hebrews 10:26  For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge <1922> of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
2 Peter 1:2  Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge <1922> of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
2 Peter 1:3  According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge <1922> of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2 Peter 1:8  For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge <1922> of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 2:20  For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge <1922> of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

3  According as his divine power<1411>  hath given unto us all things<3956> that pertain <4314>unto life and godliness, through the knowledge<1922> of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

1411. δυ/ναμις dunamis doo’-nam-is; from 1410; force (literally or figuratively); specially, miraculous power (usually by implication, a miracle itself): —  ability, abundance, meaning, might(-ily, y, y deed), (worker of) miracle(-s), power, strength,violence, mighty (wonderful) work.

1410. δυ/ναμαι dunamai doo’-nam-ahee; of uncertain affinity; to be able or possible: —  be able, can (do, + not), could, may, might, be possible, be of power.

3956. πα=ς pas pas; including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: —  all (manner of, means), alway(-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no(-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

4314. προ/ς pros pros; a strengthened form of 4253; a preposition of direction; forward to, i.e. toward (with the genitive case the side of, i.e. pertaining to; with the dative case by the side of, i.e. near to; usually with the accusative case the place, time, occasion, or respect, which is the destination of the relation, i.e. whither or for which it is predicated): — about, according to, against, among, at, because of, before, between,


Life refers to eternal as well as temporal life, because godliness is included, as the outflow of (knowing God, union with God, understanding as a person who is allied to God, the One Who calls His creatures to obtain Him, His glory and his virtue . 
******************** ( pausing here - tired worked last night - more later )

4  Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.


5 ¶  And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;


6  And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;


7  And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.


8  For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.


9  But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.


10  Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


11  For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


12 ¶  Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

John 17:
1 ¶  These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:


2  As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.


3  And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


4  I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.


5  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.


6 ¶  I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.


7  Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.


8  For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.


9  I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.


10  And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.


11 ¶  And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.


12  While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.


13  And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.


14  I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.


15  I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.


16  They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.


17 ¶  Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.


18  As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.


19  And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.


20 ¶  Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;


21  That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.


22  And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:


23  I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.


24 ¶  Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.


25  O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.


26  And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.


Psalm 32:
1 ¶  « A Psalm of David, Maschil. » Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2  Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
3  When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long.
4  For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah.
5  I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.
6  For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found: surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him.
7 ¶  Thou art my hiding place; thou shalt preserve me from trouble; thou shalt compass me about with songs of deliverance. Selah.
8  I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.
9  Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.
10  Many sorrows shall be to the wicked: but he that trusteth in the LORD, mercy shall compass him about.
11  Be glad in the LORD, and rejoice, ye righteous: and shout for joy, all ye that are upright in heart.

Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on January 15, 2015, 09:13:51 AM
Ed, that is a lot to follow. I got lost. Help me a little.

Where do we find the "everlasting covenant" first made for man?
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Ed Sutton on January 15, 2015, 07:12:12 PM
Quote
We need a better explanation of the everlasting covenant so that it is made plain how the covenant works. Can someone explain?

Woops,   Sorry for rambling so much.  Scripture being so vast in what it touches, I thought to use 2nd Peter chapter 1:   - John chapter 17:  - Psalms 32:  as a foundational platform from which to start.  I ought to include the references to the condensed nerve center of salvation.

The Sanctuary in Heaven - where God's plan of salvation for the human species is logistically put into action since sin entered. 

Exodus 15:17  Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, in the place, O LORD, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O Lord, which thy hands have established.

Psalms 63:2  To see thy power and thy glory, so as I have seen thee in the sanctuary.

Psalms 68:24  They have seen thy goings, O God; even the goings of my God, my King, in the sanctuary.

Psalms 77:13  Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?

God's dealings are best explained in the foundational passages of Scripture and salvation's operational center - The sanctuary in Heaven.

I will try to condense where I am coming from.  2nd Peter starts at the beginning - the righteousness and merits of God, contrasted with sinful totally bankrupt mankind.  Through Peter's ladder, Jesus's prayer, David's psalm of restoration education deliverance from the inside outward - this everlasting covenant mission and principles are brought forward and unpacked.

Like Daniel ch 2 revealing history and prophecy till the Second Coming, 2nd Peter ch 1 - reveals God to the uttermost ( Heb 7:25) rescuing humans from union with Satan's treason, and the sins and sinfulness of their past.   

John ch 17 reveals Jesus Christ's ways and means and mission of rescuing each individual if they choose to enter becoming believers in Him.  Rescuing them from union with Satan unto endless union with Christ and Father God through the indwelling Holy Ghost .

God's logistics of such deliverance step by step - spoken of in Psalms 32, all of the above coming from the day to day office work of God's Sanctuary in Heaven.    So verse by verse examining each passage then looking at at the sum of of the passages, explains the everlasting covenant, being the outflow of God's character, principles and ways of governance, and how He rescues, and His mission inside each person . 

Sorry for such a tiny explanation, it's such a big subject I can only perceive a small piece of a tiny fraction of this eternal mystery kept in silence till sin moved God's heart of mercy to risk Himself and His Throne and all creation to save the guilty human race.  (Q. Which Divine Person was so moved ?         A.  All three of Them in union. )

Sadly the angels who left their first estate were by their rebellion in the face of knowing all Heaven, were internally and externally propelled far beyond the ability to be reconverted & sanctified & glorified and thus redeemed and rescued, before their expulsion from Heaven.
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on January 15, 2015, 07:30:29 PM
Yes, Ed, it is a very large subject. But, let's see if we can present the simplicity of the gospel in light of the everlasting covenant. And, as you have shared, the sancturary message is front and center. But, since I wanted the first mention of the covenant to man, we did not have the Hebrew Sanctuary, for there were no Hebrews. So, all we have are two humans when the everlasting covenant was expressed. And, it was not said to Adam or Eve, but to Satan. Mimi told us earlier what it was.

Genesis 3:15.  "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." Notice that Adam and Eve were bystanders when this was spoken. But, it was for their benefit and ours that the covenant was made. My desire is that this be made simple that all may benefit from a better understanding of the "old covenant" and the "new covenant".  While it is not necessary to understand for salvation, it will help many undo the lies that have been taught regarding both covenants.

Can anyone speak to this verse and explain how it is the everlasting covenant and its relationship to the other two covenants?
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Ed Sutton on January 16, 2015, 05:36:04 AM
Q.    Can anyone speak to this verse and explain how it is the everlasting covenant and its relationship to the other two covenants?

A.  Looking at the unabridged everlasting Covenant spoken in Genesis 3: 14-19

Genesis 3:
14 ¶  And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15  And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
16 ¶  Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17 ¶  And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18  Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19  In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Genesis 5:2  Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

God is holding a conference meeting, Satan the serpent is there, and Adam the man, and Adam the woman, whom Adam the man after this conference, renamed Eve.


“Her seed” 2 Bible texts.  The covenant is everlasting - but Satan’s war and existence are not.

Genesis 3:15  And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Revelation 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The Covenant required Christ to do more than the text tells on the surface.  SOP says that Christ explained more to Adam & Eve as He opened to them the sacrificial system, that is when He expounded on what John 3:16 says.

Holiness is enmity with unholiness, light is enmity with darkness, obedience is enmity with treason / self rule. 

For Christ to put enmity between Satan and humanity, Christ had to redeem humanity.  He has to redeem humanity from both their sins and sinfulness, in other words, their willingness to sin and love of sin and sin built self rule, sin working in them and sin’s effects upon them ( both mind and body) and everywhere sin touches.

To do that, Christ must become and remain one of them eternally.  He must perfect humanity in His own human body and as a human, using Father God’s love and power and promises, through human love and faith implanted by Father God in himself.  Jesus Christ must destroy sin in His humanity, and impute and impart Himself to whomsoever will receive Him, and destroy all sin and Satan and cleanse both Heaven’s Sanctuary and the minds of all who live and are loyal to God.

He must take the first Adam’s place and become the Second Adam, and also as God, buying ALL the entire accounts receivables of all humanity missing no one, and as the Second Adam become the new pattern of the Eden created humanity. 

The entire covenant would be built upon Jesus Christ shouldering this plan of salvation and never ceasing to be the Second Adam, conquering sin in all it’s forms and effects, recreating mankind through union with Himself and restoring their access to Father God as His children.   

This would be an all or nothing one time attempt.  It could not be repeated.  If Jesus Christ failed it would be through His sinning in any degree, Satan would win, Jesus would be destroyed, Satan would take Christ’s throne.

This entire covenant carried out 100% successfully, alone , would give Jesus Christ the right to recreate humanity in His image, judge and remove sin from believers, execute Satan and Satan's followers, heal the universe of sins doubts and ideas, restore loyalty through love and faith - unbroken once more. 

Genesis 3:15 = the original covenant God made.

This is the covenant the people made in their own strength and self righteousness -

Exodus 19:8  And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.


Jeremiah 42:20  For ye dissembled in your hearts, when ye sent me unto the LORD your God, saying, Pray for us unto the LORD our God; and according unto all that the LORD our God shall say, so declare unto us, and we will do it.

Hebrews 8:10  For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Hebrews 10:16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Jeremiah 31:33  But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

This is why these passages come into play - explaining the "new covenant"  2nd Peter chapter 1:   - John chapter 17:  - Psalms 32 - Exodus 15:17 - Psalms 63:2 - Psalms 68:24 - Psalms 77:13  -   Colossians 1:27  To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

The "new covenant" was not new to God, it was new to the understanding of sinners, used to self righteousness, forms, ceremonies, faith built upon their strength - their promises - their works, their very ideas of religion, making excuses to keep on sinning.

in Scripture mystery does not always mean unknowable, but usually rather something not revealed, but understandable once revealed.

Mark 4:11  And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

1 Corinthians 2:7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Ephesians 3:9  And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Colossians 1:27  To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Colossians 2:2  That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

Colossians 4:3  Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:

1 Timothy 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Revelation 10:7  But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.   

God declared to Daniel in ch & verse 8:14 the when, and to Moses and Ezekiel the how to know the timetable . Numbers 14:34  -  Ezekiel 4:6
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on January 16, 2015, 09:34:54 AM
Thank you, Ed.  Excellent work!   We now have the Bible verses that tell us not only that this is the first covenant, but it tells us exactly what the covenant promised. You have gone further in pointing out that when the covenant has been fulfilled and the mystery is finished, we have another event that is taking place. God is very thorough and gives us enough light that we may know we are on the right track. Time is coming to an end very soon!!

Now, dear brother, let us tie things up and narrow this down so others who do not yet see can understand the fundamentals involved. We want to simplify and add one other ingredient. I know this is going to be a test for you, your mind wants to expand into all that there is.  :)   And, we are going to expand by bringing back into our study the "old covenant". It is important because it has been mis-taught within the church, just as the new covenant has been perverted. When the covenants are correctly understood, then much of the New Testament, Paul's writings, will be better understood since his burden was to reveal the difference between the old and new covenant. At the same time, let us present this in its simplicity, leaving out the other important lessons that go beyond the foundation of our faith. We are looking now at the most important matter. What must I do to be saved, not what God is going to do with the 144,000. It is at the foundation of our faith that Satan has been so successful with his deceptions. Let's get that right before we go to the rest of the story.

Let Ed or other of our Bible scholars reveal the bottom line that involves the "everlasting covenant", the "old covenant", and the "new covenant".  For what purpose are they presented?

Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Ed Sutton on January 16, 2015, 04:07:49 PM
God even gave a nail in a sure place that Bible students across the centuries could know that they were accurately following the proper time line of the “new covenant” as they studied.

Isaiah 22:
20  And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah:
21  And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.
22  And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.
23  And I will fasten him as a nail in a sure place; and he shall be for a glorious throne to his father’s house.
24  And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father’s house, the offspring and the issue, all vessels of small quantity, from the vessels of cups, even to all the vessels of flagons.
25  In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall the nail that is fastened in the sure place be removed, and be cut down, and fall; and the burden that was upon it shall be cut off: for the LORD hath spoken it.

God did not say that this would be Hilkiah’s offspring through the tribe of Levi, but He would rule and possess what God’s covenant gave to David, this servant would be High Priest, Ruler, of the lineage of the tribe of Judah, not Levi.  This was not priesthood through Aaron & Moses.  This ruler as Priest would sum the silver into God’s kingdom, and be the only nail in a sure place. 


2 Kings 22:4  Go up to Hilkiah the high priest, that he may sum the silver which is brought into the house of the LORD, which the keepers of the door have gathered of the people:


Isaiah 9:
6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7  Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


Daniel 9:
23  At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.
24  Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25  Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26  And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Revelation 1:18  I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Revelation 3:7  And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

Both the original covenant of Genesis 3:15 and the "new covenant" of writing His laws within and imputing and imparting righteousness > have a mission.   

That mission is told in Malachi 4:

1 ¶  For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2  But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3  And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
4 ¶  Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5  Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6  And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Quote
   For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. Deuteronomy 32:22.  {UL 261.1} 

     Every satanic agency is now at work with power from beneath. The day of death is not set before us in the Word as the great constraining motive impelling us to be wide awake and determined in improving our opportunities. What motive does God present in His Word to all His workers? . . . "The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly" (Zephaniah 1:14). And before the coming of this last great day, we are to proclaim the last message of mercy to a fallen world, to prepare men and women for the Lord's second coming.  {UL 261.2} 

     Everything that can be devised by the enemy to occupy the mind, and to divert attention from this message, will be devised. But we are to go forward in the proclamation of the Word of the Lord. The end of all things is at hand. The coming of the Lord in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory, is very near. . . .  {UL 261.3} 

     In the day of His coming, the last great trumpet is heard, and there is a terrible shaking of earth and heaven. The whole earth, from the loftiest mountains to the deepest mines, will hear. Everything will be penetrated by fire. The tainted atmosphere will be cleansed by fire. The fire having fulfilled its mission, the dead that have been laid away in the grave will come forth--some to the resurrection of life, to be caught up to meet their Lord in the air, and some to behold the coming of Him whom they have despised and whom they now recognize as the Judge of all the earth.  {UL 261.4} 

     All the righteous are untouched by the flames. They can walk through the fire, as Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego walked in the midst of the furnace heated seven times hotter than it was wont to be heated. The Hebrew worthies could not be consumed, because the form of the fourth, the Son of God, was with them. So in the day of the coming of the Lord, smoke and flame will be powerless to harm the righteous. Those who are united with the Lord will escape unscathed. Earthquakes, hurricanes, flame, and flood cannot injure those who are prepared to meet their Saviour in peace. But those who rejected our Saviour, and scourged and crucified Him, will be among those who will be raised from the dead to behold His coming in the clouds of heaven, attended by the heavenly host--ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands. . . .  {UL 261.5} 

     This scene has been presented before me as fully as I could bear to behold it. Then the scene has changed, and scenes of things existing at the present time have passed before me--Manuscript 159, Sept. 4, 1903, "A Message to Leading Physicians."  {UL 261.6} 
   


Quote
      Just as soon as the people of God are sealed in their foreheads--it is not any seal or mark that can be seen, but a settling into the truth, both intellectually and spiritually, so they cannot be moved--just as soon as God's people are sealed and prepared for the shaking, it will come. Indeed, it has begun already; the judgments of God are now upon the land, . . . that we may know what is coming.
 {FLB 287.7}
 

God's Ideal for His Church

     That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Ephesians 5:27. {FLB 288.1} 

     The Lord God is a jealous God; yet He bears long with the sins and transgressions of His people in this generation. If the people of God had walked in His counsel, the work of God would have advanced, the messages of truth would have been borne to all people that dwell on the face of the whole earth. . . . But because the people are disobedient, unthankful, unholy, as were ancient Israel, time is prolonged that all may hear the last message of mercy proclaimed with a loud voice. The Lord's work has been hindered, the sealing time delayed. Many have not heard the truth. But the Lord will give them a chance to hear and be converted.  {FLB 288.2} 

     What are you doing . . . in the great work of preparation? Those who are uniting with the world are receiving the worldly mold and preparing for the mark of the beast. Those who are distrustful of self, who are humbling themselves before God and purifying their souls by obeying the truth--these are receiving the heavenly mold and preparing for the seal of God in their foreheads. When the decree goes forth and the stamp is impressed, their character will remain pure and spotless for eternity. Now is the time to prepare. The seal of God will never be placed upon the forehead of an impure man or woman. It will never be placed upon the forehead of the ambitious, world-loving man or woman. It will never be placed upon the forehead of men or women of false tongues or deceitful hearts. All who receive the seal must be without spot before God--candidates for heaven.  {FLB 288.3} 

     Every individual soul, if he would receive the seal of the living God, must hear the Word of the Lord, and do it with exactitude. There must be no such thing as haphazard religion if men would have a place in the family of God.  {FLB 288.4}     

Christ travails in prayer and intercession in unsleeping work to purify and save people to the uttermost making them more precious than gold. To this end He directs their attention to His messages . 

Isaiah 13:12  I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.


Psalms 145:17  The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.

Mark 7:
18  And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
19  Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
20  And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
21  For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22  Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23  All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

1 Corinthians 3:17  If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Christ suffered being guilty of our every defilement since Gethsemane, His Trial, Calvary - and He longs to free us utterly from them all, starting with our imaginations, hearts, minds, lives, and all that pertains to us.

Titus 1:15  Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Hebrews 12:15  Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;


Revelation 21:27  And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Christ offers to eternally free us from defiled hearts and minds and broken aging bodies forever.   If only we will surrender, allow, cooperate, obey, choose to take Christ at His words.

Revelation 22:11  He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

But the text does not only speak of the holy and righteous it contains a dire warning. 
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Kaniela on February 16, 2015, 01:24:27 AM
We are looking now at the most important matter. What must I do to be saved, not what God is going to do with the 144,000. It is at the foundation of our faith that Satan has been so successful with his deceptions. Let's get that right before we go to the rest of the story.

Let Ed or other of our Bible scholars reveal the bottom line that involves the "everlasting covenant", the "old covenant", and the "new covenant".  For what purpose are they presented?




The promise given to Adam and Eve in Genesis 3:15, as I understand it was the new and the everlasting covenant (new and everlasting covenant being the same covenant). When God said that he will put enmity between the woman, her seed, and between the serpent and his seed, it was God putting in the woman's seed a hatred (enmity) for the the serpent's seed.  For God to put enmity in the woman, her seed and against the serpent's seed, it has to be done in the heart. And if we have a hatred (enmity) for the serpent and what he stands for, the only other option is the opposite, love for God. And if you love God, love is the fulfillment of the law. So that means that the law (covenant) would have been written in Adam and Eve's heart just as well as in our hearts today. So in my explanation of the covenants and the purpose why they are presented in the Bible: 1) To show that the everlasting covenant is a work of God to put in the heart. 2) we can't keep Gods covenant on our own, which is the old covenant. So then in salvation, we can allows God to write His laws (covenant) in our heart.  And of coarse we need to accept the sacrifice of Jesus (Genesis 3:21), which would be the basis of the everlasting covenant, in turn is the everlasting gospel. The everlasting covenant in a nutshell.  :) [size=78%] [/size]

Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on February 16, 2015, 10:14:39 AM
Amen!  Welcome to our study Kaniela.  There is much confusion and even error in this subject. I believe I understand what you have stated. Let me see if I can restate it to clarify exactly what it means to "put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed." Tell me if I have expressed it in the manner you see it.

"Enmity" is a hatred. Why would God tell Satan that he would put a hatred between him and the woman? We know why God would want that, but why is it necessary? Because when Adam and Eve sinned they were then aligned with Satan and sin. There was no hatred towards Satan or sin. This extends to Adam's offspring, all of humanity. It is our inheritance, a fallen evil human nature that has no hatred towards Satan and sin. It is very sad to understand there are those in our church that do not believe this. So, it is most important that we begin right on this foundation of our faith. The "everlasting covenant" is the foundation of our faith. It is the promise to put this enmity towards sin in our hearts. It is not there naturally, it comes when we are converted and filled with the Spirit of God. Love for God and truth replaces our enmity towards God. Our love of sin is replaced with enmity towards sin. This is why Jesus said "   That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." John 3:6,7.

Kaniela, you have gotten to the truth of the matter, this enmity has to do with the heart. God does not change our flesh until Jesus returns. So, we are left with sinful flesh, but the heart is changed when we make a full surrender to Jesus. Then we are given power to keep the flesh under the control of the mind and heart that are under the control of Christ. When we abide in Christ and He in us, then we are partakers of His divine nature and escape the corruption that is not only in the world, but in our flesh. Romans seven explains our flesh very clearly. Romans eight explains what happens when one is converted and abiding in Christ and the Spirit of Christ is in us. We have a hatred for sin that we do not have when we are separated from Jesus.

Kaniela, you went on to say that the everlasting covenant is the new covenant. Amen! You stated that "we need to accept the sacrifice of Jesus." Yes, there is no enmity until we are converted. The law of God is written on the heart at the moment of conversion, not one second before, and it will not remain in the heart if we are not abiding in Christ and He in us. To write the law upon the heart is to put enmity towards sin. It is the power to keep the law of God. And, it is most important that we go on beyond the "milk" to better understand the writings of Paul in the New Testament. This would be understanding the "old covenant". The old covenant was quite different from the covenant in Genesis 3:15 and the "new covenant". There was no promise to write the law upon the heart. It was very plainly stated as "obey and live". You stated "we can't keep Gods covenant on our own."  But, the people said they would do all that God had asked.

Kaniela, have I rightly represented what you believe? If not correct where I erred from what you have stated. And, share with us if you have a thought, as to why God made such a covenant as the "old covenant" with Israel?
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Kaniela on February 16, 2015, 04:30:20 PM
Yes Richard you have quite understood my post and rightly portrayed my understanding of the original, new, and everlasting covenant.
As to my thoughts to why God made the old covenant with the children of Israel is this, when Moses delivered the Ten Commandments to them, it was only to show them Gods will. It had nothing to do with HOW they were to keep them. It was the children of Israel who stated to Moses that whatever God has spoken, we will do, without letting God state the conditions of the covenant in how it would be fulfilled (God writing them in their hearts). But God being who he is, was not about to deny them their response, and so allowed them their own way. Incidentally, I'm sure they meant well, but there may seem a way that's right to a man but are the ways of death. And don't we get that way with God at times (at least I do) at jumping to conclusions before we hear out the whole matter of God. MARANATHA !   :)
Title: Re: New Covenant experience
Post by: Richard Myers on February 16, 2015, 06:06:46 PM
Amen, Kaniela.  As we get older, we have the aided benefit of experience. Our ways do not work.  :)

Adding a little to your thought on why God entered into the "old covenant" which is "obey and live".  Israel had just come out long years of slavery. They had not been making sacrifices so they did not know about Jesus and His sacrifice to be made for mankind. They had no idea they needed a Savior. God knew that in their case, experience would be the best teacher. They meant it when they said they would obey, but they did not know themselves anymore than did Peter when he was walking on water. Peter had many opportunities to see his need of a Savior, but when Christ hung upon the cross, He lost his faith. But, he had learned about his vile self when he denied Jesus.

The Pharisees even after almost 2,000 years of the temple services which all pointed to Jesus, thought that they too  could keep the law of God without a Savior. Paul is a good example of how they believed prior to his conversion. Amazing that with the temple services that they could not know of their need of Jesus. David understood. But, the sacrifices had been perverted and even the disciples did not know that the Lamb was Jesus and He must die.

How is it today in professing Christian churches? Do they understand the gospel of grace and the power that comes with Jesus when we die to self and live for Him? Do we understand our continual need of His Spirit to do any good thing?