Rebellion in the Church => Women's Ordination => Topic started by: Richard Myers on August 22, 2012, 12:21:12 AM
Title: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Richard Myers on August 22, 2012, 12:21:12 AM
Some have not rightly understood the seriousness of the current situation in the church. Some have told me that our calling this crisis a "rebellion" is over the top. At least a few months ago that was said. I share a quote from eleven years ago that will show that the term rebellion was applied way back then. When rebellion is not dealt with, it will continue to not only fester, but will spread and infect others. We now see that by not addressing the rebellion so many years ago, it has indeed spread widely within the church. The then president of the General Conference publicly stated that the ones in rebellion had Biblical principle on their side. This poured fuel on the fire of rebellion.
It is with great sadness that we report a decision made by the Pacific Union Conference in session last week. The Union voted a change in the bylaws which will now allow for a person holding commissioned ministerial credentials to be considered for the office of union president. In the past only an ordained minister could hold this position. With this change the ordained ministers can be under authority of one not ordained. Why the vote? To allow a women to lead the union, to allow a women to lead men.
The rebellion against the world church that began in the South Eastern California Conference has now spread to the Pacific Union Conference. The silence in response to the SEEC action has led to this union action and we can anticipate that if there is a similar lack of response from those in responsible positions in the church the rebellion will continue to spread.
"When unfaithful teachers came among the people, weakness followed, and the faith of God's people seemed to wane; but God arose and purged his floor, and the tried and true were lifted up.
There are times when apostasy comes into the ranks, when piety is left out of the heart by those who should have kept step with their divine Leader. The people of God separate from the source of their strength, and pride, vanity, extravagance, and display follow. There are idols within and idols without; but God sends the Comforter as a reprover of sin, that his people may be warned of their apostasy and rebuked for their backsliding. When the more precious manifestations of his love shall be gratefully acknowledged and appreciated, the Lord will pour in the balm of comfort and the oil of joy.
When men are led to realize that their human calculations come far short, and are convinced that their wisdom is but foolishness, then it is that they turn to the Lord to seek him with all the heart, that they may find him." CE 95
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Richard Myers on August 22, 2012, 12:31:20 AM
Ellen White has been used by those leading out in the rebellion as an example of a woman leading men. There are indeed examples in the Bible of women in the church leading men. The Bible does not teach that this is the way it ought to be. But, when men fail to lead, then God has indeed raised up a woman to lead men. It is a shameful thing. It is out of God's order.
Ellen White was a woman mightily used of God and I pray that my daughters would one day be so privileged.
Why is it that those who act contrary to the General Conference decision and want to raise a women to authority over men have such little regard for the woman who God used in such a mighty manner? There has never been consistency in error and never will be. When our people cherish the light that God has been pleased to send to His church, then we shall see a revival of primitive godliness that will culminate in the second coming of Christ.
The Bible is the rule of my life. It gives me great joy to say that my mind has been formed by the Bible and the writings of Ellen White more than any other influence in this world. I would that I could find a man to learn from in such a profound manner. The idea that men ordained into the ministry would want to be led by a woman is a revelation of the sad condition we find our ministry in.
One last comment that must be seen as a truth that cannot easily be overlooked. The Pacific Union Conference has certain specific responsibilities. What are they? There are church institutions that have been established by the union and look to the Union for leadership. What institutions are these that the union has responsibilities towards? Two come to mind very quickly. Schools of "higher" education and hospitals (sanitariums). When one examines these institutions in the Pacific Union and compares the counsels given through a woman prophet for the running of these institutions, one will find that no matter what one says about respecting the position of a woman, little regard has been shown to the inspired writings of this woman, Ellen White.
It is not what one says, but what one does that indicates character. Profession means nothing to God, only the obedience rendered from a willing heart. Professing to want to be led by a woman means nothing. God chose a woman to speak through and much of what was said is rejected. Let the desire to see women exalted be given to exalting God and His inspired counsel.
Once again a line has been drawn in the sand. And in this case the General Conference in session stands on the right side. Who else will stand on the Lord's side?
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Dorine on August 22, 2012, 07:26:13 AM
Amen Richard. We are watching this with intense interest. I am amazed at the comments I'm hearing from those around me that I thought were grounded. They just don't see the big deal.
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Wally on August 22, 2012, 05:18:39 PM
Ellen White has been used by those leading out in the rebellion as an example of a woman leading men. There are indeed examples in the Bible of women in the church leading men. The Bible does not teach that this is the way it ought to be. But, when men fail to lead, then God has indeed raised up a woman to lead men. It is a shameful thing. It is out of God's order.
One thing that seems to have been forgotten in this discussion, and the misuse of the SOP by the proponents of WO, is that God calls a prophet directly. The prophet, be they male or female, is speaking for God, delivering the Lord's messages. It is a "thus saith the Lord." Elders and pastors, by contrast, are chosen by the church and ordained by the church. They are invested with a certain amount of authority in the direction of church affairs. A prophet can speak for God, but how much authority does he or she really have? The can't force anyone to accept the message. Look at Jeremiah. Do we find Mrs. White ordering people around? She often said, "I was shown;" but it was up to the recipients of the message to accept it or reject it.
Maybe it's a small difference, but when it comes to the issue of authority, its seems significant to me.
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Larry Lyons on August 22, 2012, 05:29:08 PM
Ellen White has been used by those leading out in the rebellion as an example of a woman leading men. There are indeed examples in the Bible of women in the church leading men. The Bible does not teach that this is the way it ought to be. But, when men fail to lead, then God has indeed raises up a woman to lead men. It is a shameful thing. It is out of God's order.
One thing that seems to have been forgotten in this discussion, and the misuse of the SOP by the proponents of WO, is that God calls a prophet directly. The prophet, be they male or female, is speaking for God, delivering the Lord's messages. It is a "thus saith the Lord." Elders and pastors, by contrast, are chosen by the church and ordained by the church. They are invested with a certain amount of authority in the direction of church affairs. A prophet can speak for God, but how much authority does he or she really have? The can't force anyone to accept the message. Look at Jeremiah. Do we find Mrs. White ordering people around? She often said, "I was shown;" but it was up to the recipients of the message to accept it or reject it.
Maybe it's a small difference, but when it comes to the issue of authority, its seems significant to me.
Good points Wally. It is also interesting that Ellen White was God's third choice after two young men refused to carry God's messages to others. I believe the second one was Hazen Foss. I don't recall the other. Not that its relevant, but If I remember correctly, Hazen Foss was African American.
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Plain Adventist on August 23, 2012, 07:00:06 AM
One thing that seems to have been forgotten in this discussion, and the misuse of the SOP by the proponents of WO, is that God calls a prophet directly. The prophet, be they male or female, is speaking for God, delivering the Lord's messages. It is a "thus saith the Lord." Elders and pastors, by contrast, are chosen by the church and ordained by the church.
This is an interesting point. Using Ellen White's example as an excuse for women being pastors tends to place the gift of prophecy on the same level as pastoral ministry. Pastors are chosen and ordained by man. Man often makes mistakes and chooses pastors who lead the people into error. But God chooses prophets, and He never makes a mistake. Their messages are based on inspiration, not on their own thoughts.
Thus the ministry, and messages, of Ellen White are different than those of a pastor, whose understanding, and thus his presentation of truth, may at times be faulty. We can fully trust inspiration, but we need to test what pastors say by inspiration. If Ellen White was basically just another woman pastor, then we do not need to take what she says too seriously.
I am afraid there is a subtle movement to demote the divine character of prophetic inspiration. When we habitually refer to Ellen White as "church co-founder" rather than a messenger of the Lord, this is another example.
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Sister Dee on August 23, 2012, 08:00:02 AM
It is also interesting that Ellen White was God's third choice after two young men refused to carry God's messages to others. I believe the second one was Hazen Foss. I don't recall the other. Not that its relevant, but If I remember correctly, Hazen Foss was African American.
Actually, the African American was William Foy. I know that his visions were published, though I'm not certain that God called him to be a messenger in the same capacity as He did Hazen Foss and Ellen White.
Plain Adventist, I had not thought of this as undermining the SOP, but I can see that it is so. The implications run deep. :(
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: colporteur on August 23, 2012, 08:59:55 AM
I think the issue relative to prophets and pastors is the "headship role." As much as some would like to make the prophetic gift a headship role it is not. It is a role of guide, counselor, and advisor, at the request/command of God. This does not diminish the roll of a prophet it is just an entirely different role.
Again, not in any way diminishing the high calling of a prophet of God, however they play the role of a messenger boy... or girl. The prophet does not have the authority of a pastor in terms of the politcs in the church. He/she simply relates the message from the One in heaven who has all authority. In one respect, it could be said that a prophet is a translator. A pastor/elder has more of a hands on/ legislative role in the church.
Both pastor/elder and prophet have alot of authority in the church. It's just that the authority of a prophet is more advisory while the pastor is involved in the nuts an bolts of the church organizing process. Personally, I believe the prophet or at least the prophet's message carries more authority. However, the pastor has more authority to implement. Maybe I'm not exactly on with this but it is the way I see it.
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Dorine on August 23, 2012, 10:27:58 AM
In 1987 the Review and Herald Published a book entitled "The Unknown Prophet" by Delbert W. Baker who did research into the background of William Foy. It is very interesting if you can find a copy.
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Mimi on August 23, 2012, 11:50:18 AM
In matters of rebellion and apostasy, these little quotes speak volumes:
This apostasy has been permitted, that it may be faithfully written out in the true light ... The Lord has permitted this matter to develop as it has done, in order to show how easily His people will be misled when they depend upon the words of men instead of searching the Scriptures for themselves, as did the noble Bereans, to see if these things are so. {9MR 361.3}
The Lord has permitted this thing to be, that warning may be given that just such things will take place. Rebellion and apostasy are in the very air we breathe. We shall be affected by it unless we by faith hang our helpless souls upon Christ. If men are so easily misled, how will they stand when Satan shall personate Christ, and work miracles? Who will be unmoved by his misrepresentations--professing to be Christ, when it is only Satan assuming the person of Christ, and apparently working the works of Christ? What will hold God's people from giving their allegiance to false christs? "Go not ye after them" (See Luke 21: 8 ). {9MR 362.1}
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Richard Myers on August 23, 2012, 11:54:18 AM
Amen!
The various topics in this forum will reveal the history and extent of the rebellion. As it is now, we have the North American Division that voted into existence a policy that would allow women to be conference presidents. That policy was rescinded when the lawyers for the NAD realized it was an illegal action. The NAD president vowed to continue the fight to place women in high places in the church as he apologized for the illegal action.
The Trans-European Division has voted to have parity between women and men in church leadership positions. The division president explained that their society in Europe demands it.
The new plan was to use the unions to change the laws in the church. The Mid America Union voted to ordain women. The Columbia Union has voted to ordain women. The Pacific Union has voted to ordain women. The Northern German Union has voted to ordain women. The Southern Union has voted to support the World Church.
At each step of the way, the General Conference has said "no" to women's ordination. The authority of the World Church has been usurped and now, it appears that law and order within the Seventh-day Adventist Church has taken a back seat to anarchy in two divisions of the World Church. The failure to follow established order and the failure to adhere to Scripture, sets these unions in direct opposition to God and His church.
We know the end of the matter. We praise God and move forward asking for His leadership through His appointed agencies. The shaking has begun and as painful as it will be, it is needful. God will have a people who love Him and keep His commandments.
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: ejclark on August 23, 2012, 06:19:03 PM
This is an interesting point. Using Ellen White's example as an excuse for women being pastors tends to place the gift of prophecy on the same level as pastoral ministry. Pastors are chosen and ordained by man. Man often makes mistakes and chooses pastors who lead the people into error. But God chooses prophets, and He never makes a mistake. Their messages are based on inspiration, not on their own thoughts.
Thus the ministry, and messages, of Ellen White are different than those of a pastor, whose understanding, and thus his presentation of truth, may at times be faulty. We can fully trust inspiration, but we need to test what pastors say by inspiration. If Ellen White was basically just another woman pastor, then we do not need to take what she says too seriously.
I am afraid there is a subtle movement to demote the divine character of prophetic inspiration. When we habitually refer to Ellen White as "church co-founder" rather than a messenger of the Lord, this is another example.
So very true. A book written by Graeme Bradford (More Than a Prophet) does a lot of damage to the gift of prophecy as understood in the historical context. It is a fulfillment of Mrs. White's quote about "making none effect the testimonies of the Spirit of God".
This book is very popular with the Adventist's looking for loopholes in Christianity but still wanting to be viewed as Christian.
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Richard Myers on November 19, 2013, 07:47:55 AM
The decision to not ordain women pastors was made by the General Conference in session in 1990 and 1995. It is in harmony with Scripture. Here in the Spirit of Prophecy we have an explanation of what has been happening:
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; . . . and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. And unto Adam he said, . . . cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life. Genesis 3:16, 17. Eve was told of the sorrow and pain that must henceforth be her portion. . . . In the creation God had made her the equal of Adam. Had they remained obedient to God--in harmony with His great law of love--they would ever have been in harmony with each other; but sin had brought discord, and now their union could be maintained and harmony preserved only by submission on the part of the one or the other. Eve had been the first in transgression; and she had fallen into temptation by separating from her companion, contrary to the divine direction. It was by her solicitation that Adam sinned, and she was now placed in subjection to her husband. . . . Eve had been perfectly happy by her husband's side in her Eden home; but, like restless modern Eves, she was flattered with the hope of entering a higher sphere than that which God had assigned her. In attempting to rise above her original position, she fell far below it. A similar result will be reached by all who are unwilling to take up cheerfully their life duties in accordance with God's plan. In their efforts to reach positions for which He has not fitted them, many are leaving vacant the place where they might be a blessing. . . . When God made man, He made him ruler over the earth and all living creatures. So long as Adam remained loyal to Heaven, all nature was in subjection to him. But when he rebelled against the divine law, the inferior creatures were in rebellion against his rule. Thus the Lord, in His great mercy, would show men the sacredness of His law, and lead them, by their own experience, to see the danger of setting it aside, even in the slightest degree. And the life of toil and care which was henceforth to be man's lot was appointed in love. It was a discipline rendered needful by his sin, to place a check upon the indulgence of appetite and passion, to develop habits of self-control. It was a part of God's great plan for man's recovery from the ruin and degradation of sin. CC 18.
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: ltvvaughn on November 23, 2013, 12:46:43 PM
Sometimes I think that if God were to tell people outright that they were doing wrong, they would find a way to discount what He said. Oh . . . but I guess He already has. We have His plain and direct word and people still disregard its plain truths.
LtV
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Richard Myers on November 23, 2013, 02:57:19 PM
Yes, it is called human nature, a fallen human nature. Let's go back one verse from where I quoted and see why it is that God placed a curse upon the man and the woman. "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." Gen. 3:15. Here we see that there was a need for God to put "enmity" between man and the devil. What is enmity and why does God need to do this? When does He do it? When correctly understood, this will explain why there is such a problem in the church. Rebellion in the church did not just happen. There is a reason why so many can be as Pastor Vaughn has pointed out. Why are there so many who reject the plain simple stated truths in Scripture....who are IN the church?
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Richard Myers on January 28, 2015, 07:48:26 AM
The rebellion is only a symptom of a much deeper problem. The problem is found explicitly stated by Jesus in the third chapter of the Book of Revelation in His message to the Laodicean Church. If we would study the loveliness of Jesus we would become a converted people.
But, now we must not remain quiet in the face of such a great rebellion against not only the world church, but against the foundation of our faith, the Word of God.
The first thing recorded in Scripture history after the fall was the persecution of Abel. And the last thing in Scripture prophecy is the persecution against those who refuse to receive the mark of the beast. We should be the last people on the earth to indulge in the slightest degree the spirit of persecution against those who are bearing the message of God to the world. . . . A passive piety will not answer for this time; let the passiveness be manifested where it is needed, in patience, kindness, and forbearance. But we must bear a decided message of warning to the world. The Prince of Peace thus proclaimed His work, “I came not to send peace [on earth], but a sword.” Evil must be assailed; falsehood and error must be made to appear in their true character; sin must be denounced; and the testimony of every believer in the truth must be as one. All your little differences, which arouse the combative spirit among brethren and sisters, are devices of Satan to divert minds from the great and fearful issue before us. . . . Those who profess to believe the special truths for this time need to be converted and sanctified by the truth. As Christians we are made depositories of sacred truth, and we are not to keep the truth in the outer court, but bring it into the sanctuary of the soul. Then the church will possess divine vitality throughout. CTr 356.
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Richard Myers on January 30, 2015, 02:33:44 PM
Post on pastor moved to existing topic, Pastors in the Church.
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Mimi on March 29, 2015, 08:11:25 PM
Mr. Lambert, your posts in the Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists topic have been removed. In your post, you have asked if someone knows how to contact Elder Stephen Bohr. You may contact him at pastorbohr@secretsunsealed.org.
LindaRS, Moderator - Women's Ordination Crisis
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Richard Myers on May 06, 2015, 08:22:39 AM
There is always more than we can see, but it is important that we understand the principles involved. In my studies this morning, I read this:
You must feel your utter helplessness without Christ, and be much with God in prayer. The more ignorant of Bible truth the people are, and the lower they have sunk in ignorance and superstition, the more they need the arm of infinite power to lift them up. Pity rather than censure them. Recall your own sins and how long the Lord bore with your neglect of his great salvation, and walk with fear and trembling before him. Christ has said, “Without me ye can do nothing.” You need to be imbued with his Spirit. The human heart, uncontrolled by the Spirit of God, is void of the meekness of Christ, but loves to battle for the truth. Those who are proclaiming God's message to the world must not be captious or overbearing. They should not be too free to criticise or condemn others. They should be careful not to let their words wound, but should let pure Bible truth cut its way to the heart. When tempted to speak impatiently, remember, brethren, that when Jesus was reviled, he reviled not again. Give the reason of the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear. With fear lest you have not the truth?—No; but with fear lest by some unwise, impatient word, you may close hearts against the truth. If you cannot be calm in answering the accusations of enemies, it is better to keep silent. God wants you to testify to the world that you have a special message for them, by presenting it in the Spirit of Christ. They will then see the difference between those who teach it and those who oppose. But if you have exalted views of your own ability, your spirit will rise in self-justification at the least provocation. What all the workers need is to make an entire surrender to God, and, putting self out of sight, lift up the Man of Calvary. When you have placed yourselves in the right relation to God, if you are compelled to go among the warring elements, Christ will give you his Spirit, and will work with your efforts. When brought in contact with the powers of darkness, angels of God will be right by your side, and will preserve you from the wrath of man. GW92 397.
Are we easily offended when others disagree with us? Then we need Jesus.
We are to follow Christ if compelled "to go among the warring elements." We shall be misunderstood, attacked, and even hated when we stand for truth. We may feel alone, but we are not if we will abide in Jesus. He will never leave us nor forsake us as we cling to Him. He will abide in us through the Spirit.
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: colporteur on May 07, 2015, 12:28:02 PM
A very important factor regarding WO that is not being discussed much is ,......what would/will happen at the GC regarding the world president of our church? Perhaps, since the NAD has become a minority and the majority of the world church is more conservative we tend to think that Ted Wilson will be automatically re elected. However, that is not a given and if he were not how would the new president react if WO is voted down ? In other words, a law or a ruling is only as good as those who stand by it. If a more moderate or liberal president were elected and WO was voted down the president and rebellious NAD leadership could/would.... just let it slide and continue to do their own thing. Voting down WO does not mean a whole lot if countries like the US and Australia ignore it and continue to press for WO in other countries. If WO is voted down there is then a part two that comes into play. What will be done about those who continue to do what is right in their own eyes and thumb their nose at the world church ? If we were to receive a more moderate president it is pretty obvious what the problem would be.
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Richard Myers on June 11, 2015, 08:25:10 AM
When we began the topic on rebellion in 2001, we did so because we understood that the making of women leaders of men was contrary to Scripture and the decision of the General Conference in Session, and was rebellion. It is interesting that so many in the church fail to call it so, even as we see the results clearly reveal rebellion against conference bylaws as well as the world church and the Bible. Some who may disagree with the Bible principles are beginning to see that to move contrary to the world church's decision is very wrong. But, they still do not call it rebellion.
In an email today I read the thoughts of Michael Peabody regarding the ordination of women pastors and the vote to take place at San Antonio. "For those who disagree with the outcome, it may be tempting for parts of the church to engage in a form of civil disobedience and disregard the decision of the worldwide church in session rather than to agree to follow the decision. But ignoring or disregarding the vote would institutionalize a wedge and create troubling precedent in terms of church cohesion. This would introduce congregationalism that would compromise the structural integrity of the church, and every subcategory, from union to conference to local church would have the presumptive authority to disregard decisions made at the higher levels. In a church based on a common set of fundamental beliefs, it could mean the end of local denominational identity in many parts of the world.
Dissenting entities within the church who disregard the vote will be institutionalizing a lack of respect for the authority structure that all portions of the church identified as Seventh-day Adventist have agreed to and this could destroy any ability of the denomination to cohesively address these future challenges."
Very well stated, Michael, but you neglect to say what we said 14 years ago, that this has already taken place. Dissenting entities within the church who have disregarded the General Conference vote have in fact revealed a lack of respect for the authority structure that all portions of the church identified as Seventh-day Adventist have agreed to. This lack of respect for church authority manifested in disobedience is rebellion. Now, if the rebellion against church law is not contrary to Scripture, then that is one thing and in some cases as when the church crucified Christ, we would stand with the refusal to follow church law, but when the rebellion is also against Bible law, then it is rebellion against God as well as the church.
This is indeed a distraction from the real issue which is a Laodicean church that has perverted more than the principle of church leadership. But, it is a distraction that needs to be met since the rebellion has spread in the last 15 years and is continuing to disrupt the church. The rebellion is not led by the laity, but is being fueled by a majority of the leaders in the North American Division who revealed their lack of respect for church authority by voting to allow women to be conference presidents despite the vote of the GC in Session and the refusal of the General Conference to approve a variance they requested. At that time we addressed the subject in our June 2012 Newsletter (http://remnant-online.com/smf/index.php/topic,9042.msg178937.html#msg178937) that has just been placed in our public archive. In it we reported on the October 31, 2011 NAD vote. According to the General Conference’s Office of General Counsel, the vote numbered 162 in favor of making women leaders of men and 61 against it.
Adventist News Network reported Prior to the discussion of this policy, Dan Jackson, president of the North American Division, led the congregation through the hymn “Have Thine Own Way Lord” and asked for the Holy Sprit’s leading in the discussion. Also, attendees separated in small groups (about three times) to pray about the proceedings. “My desire is that at the end of this discussion everyone present says in their own mind ‘I was in the presence of the Spirit of God,’” said Jackson. Such blindness that he would lead those assembled to think they were being led by God in their rebellion.
While we apparently disagree with Michael Peabody in regards to making women rulers over men, we certainly agree with him about the failure of those who have rejected and will reject the authority of the world church.
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Richard Myers on June 17, 2017, 03:41:53 PM
We continue to report on the actions taken by the General Conference, and the actions of those in rebellion. We now choose to post in this thread an action taken by leadership in the church, most pointedly, leaders in unions in four rebellious divisions.
Today as we post, there is a meeting in London organized by union leadership in the four divisions of the world church. Not all union leadership in these divisions is involved. It is being reported that there are ten unions involved. Invitations to the meeting were sent to all of the unions in the world church.
What is the agenda for the meeting? It is to further the rebellion against the authority of the world church. From the "Unity 2017" website:
"Unity 2017 has been organised by Adventist leaders from four of the world divisions—an indication of the global significance of this discussion. It is a true sisterhood of union conferences, who have joined hearts and hands in seeking to provide leaders in our church a special opportunity for prayerful contemplation of this important topic. In the spirit of those Sabbath Conferences of the 1840s, and enthused by God’s Spirit, we will come together to explore the important subjects of church structure and authority, unity, and liberty of conscience."
Yes, indeed there are four divisions that are in rebellion. Western Europe, North America and Australia have been so influenced by the world that they know better than the world church. This organization will give the church a view of who it is that is leading out in the rebellion. Who are the leaders in this rebellious organization? Here we see who welcomed the registrants to the meeting, and who signed as the "Organising Committee."
Wim Altink, Ricardo Graham, Thomas Muller, Brad Kemp, and Dave Weigley
Organising Committee, Unity 2017
Keynote Speakers--
Roy Adams (PhD) Teacher, pastor, theology professor (Systematics), administrator, author, Associate Editor, Review (Retired)
Reinder Bruinsma (PhD) Pastor and church administrator (Retired)
John Brunt (PhD) New Testament Theologian, Academic Administrator, Pastor (Retired)
Lowell Cooper (DMin) General Vice President, General Conference (Retired)
Olive Hemmings (PhD) Professor of Religion, Washington Adventist University
Wendy Jackson (PhD) Lecturer in Ministry and Theology, Avondale College
George Knight (EdD) Emeritus Professor of Church History, Andrews University
Barry Oliver (PhD) President, South Pacific Division (Retired)
Gary Patterson (DMin) Theologian, Senior Pastor, Church Administrator (Retired)
Rolf Pöhler (ThD) Professor (Systematics), Theological Advisor of the North German Union Conference
Ray Roennfeldt (PhD) Professor (Systematics), President, Avondale College
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: colporteur on June 17, 2017, 03:55:34 PM
Richard; can we assume that all the speakers are part of the rebellion ? And are we to assume this meeting is all about seeking to justify breaking from the world church ?
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Richard Myers on June 17, 2017, 04:18:33 PM
cp, it may be that some are innocent. We do not know the hearts of all involved. It is hard to believe any at this point do not see their part in rejecting church authority. Maybe some who are not yet actively involved in making women leaders of men are attending the meeting. That is quite possible. It appears those participating in the leadership of the meeting are working with the rebels.
Are they all working towards splitting from the church? I don't know. This we do know, some of the unions have rejected the authority of the world church and their own bylaws. By so doing they are not operating within the sisterhood of churches which comprise the Seventh-day Adventist Church. It may be they think they have power over the church. They do not. Because God has not acted immediately to discipline them, does not mean they have won their rebellion. Korah was given a period of time in his rebellion before God put an end to it.
We know there is a "shaking" taking place in the church. We know many will be shaken out. It will be (is) a painful process, but it must be. Those who reject Scripture and the authority of the church, after being labored with will be removed from the church. There have been a number of churches that have left the organized church to begin a new church. After a period of time, all may recognized they erred. Their new church did not prove to be a blessing for all who were deceived. So it will be with this separation if some choose to form a new "organization." It is not of God.
This is God's church and it will see revival and reformation. Ezekiel 36 and 37 reveal our current condition and that God will pour out His Spirit and cleanse all who want to serve Him. His grace can bring about this revival. It will happen.
Since a great majority of the NAD leadership has voted to reject the world church's authority, we will face a separation one way or another.
During the Autumn Council in October 2011, the General Conference Executive Committee chose to stand on the Lord's side and uphold its constitution and the decisions made by the General Conference in session in 1995 and again in 2000 regarding the ordination of women to the ministry. The Autumn Council decision this fall confirmed that a conference president must be an ordained minister. There are some in disagreement with this decision who seek to make changes that are contrary to the vote of the Autumn Council, the world church and God's Word. - The Remnant Online Newsletter, December 2011.
Rebellion Against World Church (http://remnant-online.com/smf/index.php?topic=90.msg121758#msg121758) 2010 Commissioned ministers can lead North American conferences, leaders vote Vote reaffirms older policy; request sent to General Conference for exemption
GC said "No." A request to allow commissioned ministers in the North American and Trans-European divisions -- those who have not been formally ordained as Seventh-day Adventist pastors -- to serve as conference presidents sparked more than six hours of debate October 11, 2011, during the world church's Annual Council.
In the end, the controversial measure was defeated by a written ballot vote of 167 to 117. The 50-vote margin defeating the NAD proposal also effectively ended the TED request, which would have permitted commissioned ministers to head church unions as well as conferences.
2011 Year-end Meeting Report #3 NAD Votes on E 60 Policy: Conference/Mission President Eligibility http://remnant-online.com/smf/index.php?topic=90.msg137957#msg137957 [/color]
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Richard Myers on June 17, 2017, 04:46:52 PM
What was the NAD's response to the GC's denial of their request for a variance from the church law? They voted to go ahead and do what the GC said they could not do. They voted to change their Constitution to allow for women to rule over men by being conference presidents. How close was the vote? Not even close at all. 162 voted in favor of rebellion, and 61 voted against rebellion.
From the September 2012 Remnant Online newsletter "The Shaking Has Begun".
Rebellion in the North American Division -On October 31, 2011, under the leadership of Daniel Jackson, the NAD voted to allow women to be conference presidents in direct opposition to the General Conference Constitution and the GC denial of their request for a variance. According to the General Conference’s Office of General Counsel, the vote numbered 162 in favor of rebellion and 61 against. http://news.adventist.org/en/archive/articles/2011/11/01/north-american-adventists-reaffirm-commissioned-ministers-as-conference-mis -On January 21, 2012, North American Division president, Dan Jackson wrote the NAD Executive Committee explaining that their action to make women conference presidents was illegal. The NAD president then wrote "The North American Division and its Unions and Conferences (as local circumstances permit) must become more intentional in the development of pathways to ministry for female pastors. We must also develop intentional methods of mentoring women who can take on executive leadership positions within our conferences." http://www.adventistchurchconnect.com/site/1/docs/E-60_Update_Letter_Dan_Jackson.pdf -On Thursday, March 8, 2012, the Mid-America Union Executive Committee voted “to support the ordination of women in the Mid-America Union.” Thomas L. Lemon, president of the union stated "We are not aware of any candidates, but at some point, one of our six local conferences may vote to recommend a woman for ordination." "As we do with all such requests, the union committee will then prayerfully evaluate the candidate on her own merits while making its decision. " http://outlookmag.org/ordination-of-women-as-pastors-in-the-mid-america-union/ -On March 22, 2012, the Executive Committee of the Southeastern California Conference voted “to remove the term ‘Ordained-Commissioned’ and replace it with the term ‘Ordained’ on all ministerial credentials, regardless of the gender of the credential holder.” http://secc.adventistfaith.org/news_entries/14788 -On March 27, the Potomac Conference, "according to Dan Jensen, assistant to the Potomac Conference president for communication, it was voted unanimously 'to request the Potomac Conference Standing Articles & Bylaws committee to begin a review process of its bylaws that would enable us to ordain women.'” http://spectrummagazine.org/blog/2012/03/27/potomac-conference-moves-ahead-intention-ordain-women -On June 29, 2012, the General Conference issued an "Appeal for Unity" statement: "The actions of certain unions indicate their desire to establish an alternative source of authority for a matter that already carries the authority of the world Church.....For any union to introduce a different ministerial ordination practice is seen, by the rest of the Church, as readiness to set aside a world Church decision and proceed in another direction." http://www.adventistreview.org/article/5488/archives/issue-2012-1518/18-cn-an-appeal-for-unity -On July 29, 2012 "The Columbia Union Conference Special Constituency Meeting today voted an historic motion—'That the Columbia Union Conference authorize ordination to the gospel ministry without regard to gender.' According to a statement released by the union it means that the union executive committee will no longer deny requests from conferences to ordain proven female ministers to the gospel ministry but that their calling will be fully recognized on par with their male counterparts." http://www.columbiaunion.org/article/1093/news/2012-news-archives/july-29-2012-columbia-union-constituents-overwhelmingly-affirm-women-pastors-through-ordination#.UB_fIKPy3u0 -On August 19, 2012 "Delegates to a special session of the Pacific Union Conference voted 79% to 21% to 'approve ordinations to the gospel ministry without regard to gender.'” http://pauc.adventistfaith.org/news_entries/6778 -On August 19, 2012, the General Conference leadership published a response regarding the rebellion: "Further, the action is contrary to General Conference Working Policy and sets aside the 1990 and 1995 decisions of the General Conference in Session respecting the practice of ordination. The action taken by the Pacific Union Conference represents a serious threat to the unity of the worldwide Seventh-day Adventist Church, and thus, at its next meeting in October 2012, as indicated in another recent public statement by General Conference officers and division presidents, the General Conference Executive Committee will carefully review the situation and determine how to respond. In the spirit of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, the officers of the General Conference appeal to all entities, organizations, and individuals, including the Pacific Union Conference, to refrain from independent and unilateral decisions and from implementing any such actions." http://www.adventistreview.org/article/5625/archives/issue-2012-1523/a-response-to-the-pacific-union-conference-constituency-vote -On September 5, 2012, the Pacific Union Executive Committee approved the ordination of 14 women, ten from the South Eastern California Conference and four from the Northern California Conference.
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: colporteur on July 28, 2017, 07:08:51 AM
https://www.unityintruth.com/
I just emailed off a letter to President Ted Wilson.
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: colporteur on July 28, 2017, 07:19:42 AM
Sent a letter off to today for Ted Wilson.
Dear Elder Wilson;
I am a convert from Catholicism to the SDA church. This took place 28 years ago. I have been successfully canvassing in 11 different states since 1991. My family and I currently live in West Virginia where I am canvassing as well as on the boarder of Maryland, Ohio, and Pennsylvania. I have three children two of which are adopted from other countries. My wife works for the Federal government as a NRCS assistant to the state.
We have been following the women's ordination dilemma for the past two decades and realize that it is at a juncture of crisis. We are seeing Faithful ministers and ministries such as Amazing Facts and Secrets Unsealed being sidelined and forced to work independently from the NAD leadership. We lift up your hands and call for action to be taken in terms of holding the NAD and any other division accountable for rebellion against the biblical decision of the GC in session. We are very observational as we see WO, coupled with transgender and homosexual acceptance. "By their fruit ye shall know them". We respectfully demand that this issue be dealt with in a courageous yet respectful manner. While this issue is a symptom of a deeper problem, if the issues are not dealt with the cancer grows. It is apparent that no matter what position the GC takes on this division is a reality. We have been told through Inspiration that the straight testimony will be given and there will be a rising up against it. Since division is coming whether a stand against those who are going ahead with WO takes place or not, why not take a stand and be on the right side. Our prayers are with the GC leadership as we lift up your hands and call for you to lean into the battle. The victory is the Lord's.
Blessings; Kevin, Damarys, and the Mortenson family
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: carls365 on July 28, 2017, 12:21:09 PM
CP, it's sad that you have to write such a letter in the first place to those who should realize and be doing without being reminded or told.
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Plain Adventist on July 30, 2017, 09:49:34 AM
Colporteur, thank you for having the courage to write this letter. I will pray that it will reach the president and be of help to him. I am amazed that you have moved to West Virginia! We live in WV, outside of Parkersburg. What church are you attending? I think that comparatively, you will find this conference more conservative than where you were, but that depends on what church you are going to, as there is quite a difference between local churches. There is still a great need of present truth and lifestyle reforms here in this conference. It would be wonderful if we could meet your family some time. We have three children and are homeschoolers too.
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: colporteur on July 30, 2017, 07:30:58 PM
Colporteur, thank you for having the courage to write this letter. I will pray that it will reach the president and be of help to him. I am amazed that you have moved to West Virginia! We live in WV, outside of Parkersburg. What church are you attending? I think that comparatively, you will find this conference more conservative than where you were, but that depends on what church you are going to, as there is quite a difference between local churches. There is still a great need of present truth and lifestyle reforms here in this conference. It would be wonderful if we could meet your family some time. We have three children and are homeschoolers too.
I was canvassing near Parkersburg, WV and in Marietta, OH last week. Stopped and purchased a whole van load of advertising and new health sets from Ron Davis as he is retiring after 46 years. Would have bought more as it was a bargain but could only afford so much. I'm hoping no one else takes it but LEs are few and far between so perhaps it will be there for me later. We are sending our son to Quatchita Hills in a couple of weeks so funds are a bit tight. The best thing that the Morgantown and Kingwood churches could do is close down rather than to set that kind of example. Suffice to say they are a wasteland.. leadership working on Sabbath, affairs, etc.. I preached in Fairmont a few Sabbaths ago as well as Kingwood and Oakland, MD. We decided to become members at Oakland. We are in a location where we could easily be members in WV, MD, or PA.. I only see a little difference between this conference and others. Grafton church seems pretty good. Since Ron is retiring I am attempting to run his leads and cover an area from Charleston on up to Pittsburgh over east and then down to Elkins. Daughter and I attended part of campmeeting at Vista this year. Some of it was good and some not so great. Really liked Ron Goss' presentation. I missed some of it as I was working in Elkins. WV is a terror on one's vehicle. Blew a head gasket a couple of weeks ago. Not cheap. God is providing. WV is beautiful but a bit of a culture shock. Kind of like moving to a third world country. Nice people on one hand but crazies too. I experienced two demoniacs today over by Grafton. They were out playing horseshoe and pretty sauced up. Part of the time they were hugging me and praising me for my work and part of the time they were yelling in my face rebuking my legalism. lol. Pretty much anything that hinted of obedience set them off. They were not cussing or violent but extremely demonstrative and I don't think it would have taken much to make them aggressive. One of them, the lay preacher was in control of the other and kept him from getting too crazy. He accepted some literature and we had a prayer. Was not sure where that would go but it kind of calmed them down. Never a dull moment. A lot of hard cross country miles today ( 166) but was able to place a six volume set of health books and leave books on prophecy on the doors of a couple of churches along the way. A lot of good , humble people here. Never saw, in this country so much poverty and lack of education though. We are east of Morgantown and south of Uniontown. Have had some amazing experiences already working the area but that is true of every area. It is very scenic driving the country toads. I crossed several streams today with my vehicle, bottomed out twice and had it was so bad on one dirt road I had to turn back and bang my way back out to the paved road.
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Plain Adventist on July 31, 2017, 04:39:48 AM
That is wonderful you are now working in West Virginia, but I am sorry that you have had some challenging experiences. I am also sorry that the churches in your area are such a disappointment. It is true I have only been to a few of the churches recently. In November we moved to Parkersburg, but before that we were members of Glenville. It is more conservative than where we are now and you might enjoy it if you are able to visit some time. Where we are, we have challenges with the influences my children are exposed to. I am torn. I do not want to write much on it here, as I know it is not the purpose of this thread. And from what I read on this forum, and read in the Visitor, I know it is so much worse in other places. Still, am I doing the right thing? is the question. If anyone wants to comment on this, maybe you should message me, so we do not derail this thread.
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Ulicia on May 22, 2018, 10:17:37 AM
We continue to report on the actions taken by the General Conference, and the actions of those in rebellion. We now choose to post in this thread an action taken by leadership in the church, most pointedly, leaders in unions in four rebellious divisions.
Didn't see this latest news on the forum so not sure if you folk have seen it.
Is this an authentic report? If it is then this has become more than mere "acceptance" of women desiring to be pastors, but an active plan to largely increase women pastors.
Quoting from Fulcrum:
"Alex Bryant revealed he is head of very special project in the NAD. He clearly supports WO and stated he disagrees with our world church. He affirmed there were three no’s from the world church. "So we respect the world vote"under Dan Jackson’s leadership, we have created a “building block” of female ministry. Here it is: The NAD will 1) double the number of women pastors from 107 to 214 over 5 yrs. We at the NAD incentivize local conferences by paying 3 years of salary for women pastors! The “no vote” only says you can’t ordain as pastors. We can still hire and make women pastors as ordained elders." Yearly, the NAD is spending $450,000 / year to pay for women pastors. He stated that 44 a year are being salary subsidized at this point. Jackson and Bryant then indicated that when we get from 500 – 1000 women pastors in the NAD, then the rest of the world church will change their ideas. Both leaders reaffirmed that they don’t agree with the world church at all. Jackson said in conclusion – “This topic ain’t going away."
That article's title does voice my question -- "Is This Thing On?" For real? Are they really pushing to increase women pastors with monetary rewards to this extent?
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Richard Myers on May 23, 2018, 08:31:22 AM
Why not? This has been their intent all along. They are in rebellion against the church and Scripture. They are indeed making women leaders over men. They reject the decisions made by the world church. This is outright rebellion. But, it is only a symptom of a much deeper problem. God allows this that a sleeping church might awaken to the real problem, its Laodicean condition in which most are not in a converted state (lost).
We are in a worse condition today than the church in 1888 when it rejected the gospel truth and blocked the coming of Christ.
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: colporteur on May 23, 2018, 11:12:23 AM
The NAD is following the churches of Babylon.
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: colporteur on October 16, 2018, 06:44:01 AM
Iowa/Miss president Dean Cordain has finally come out of the closet and has directly attacked the GC and Ted Wilson. He has concealed his true nature for years using his ministerial director to do his work for him as discreetly as possible.
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Richard Myers on November 01, 2018, 07:50:09 AM
PACIFIC UNION CONFERENCE The Seventh-day Adventist Church in the Pacifc Southwest2686 Townsgate Road | Westlake Village, CA 91361 | 805.497.9457
Pacific Union Conference Statement following the 2018 Annual Council
The mission of the church is universal, while the ministry of the church is local. We are resolved in our continued commitment to ordain women and men equally. We remain stalwart in support of our churches, schools, conferences, and all of our workers. The Pacifc Union Conference affrms and renews our devotion to the unique ministry that Christ has given us.
Pacific Union Conference Officers October 17, 2018
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Richard Myers on January 15, 2019, 07:42:52 AM
Ellen White was a woman mightily used of God and I pray that my daughters would one day be so privileged.
Why is it that those who act contrary to the General Conference decision and want to raise a women to authority over men have such little regard for the woman who God used in such a mighty manner? There has never been consistency in error and never will be. When our people cherish the light that God has been pleased to send to His church, then we shall see a revival of primitive godliness that will culminate in the second coming of Christ.
The Bible is the rule of my life. It gives me great joy to say that my mind has been formed by the Bible and the writings of Ellen White more than any other influence in this world. I would that I could find a man to learn from in such a profound manner. The idea that men ordained into the ministry would want to be led by a woman is a revelation of the sad condition we find our ministry in.
One last comment that must be seen as a truth that cannot easily be overlooked. The Pacific Union Conference has certain specific responsibilities. What are they? There are church institutions that have been established by the union and look to the Union for leadership. What institutions are these that the union has responsibilities towards? Two come to mind very quickly. Schools of "higher" education and hospitals (sanitariums). When one examines these institutions in the Pacific Union and compares the counsels given through a woman prophet for the running of these institutions, one will find that no matter what one says about respecting the position of a woman, little regard has been shown to the inspired writings of this woman, Ellen White.
It is not what one says, but what one does that indicates character. Profession means nothing to God, only the obedience rendered from a willing heart. Professing to want to be led by a woman means nothing. God chose a woman to speak through and much of what was said is rejected. Let the desire to see women exalted be given to exalting God and His inspired counsel.
Once again a line has been drawn in the sand. And in this case the General Conference in session stands on the right side. Who else will stand on the Lord's side?
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Marelis on January 16, 2019, 02:16:15 AM
Why is it that those who act contrary to the General Conference decision and want to raise a women to authority over men have such little regard for the woman who God used in such a mighty manner?
Excellent question and observation, Br Myers! Exactly.
I do appreciate your reasoning on this topic. I hope you won't mind if I add some thoughts of my own as a woman in her middle years who has been an SDA for all of her life. The comment I have frequently heard women make - and I think their point needs to be heard and acknowledged - is that it is not uncommon for a church to have inept, incompetent male candidates for the position of elder. And they ask, why should a person be given an office of church authority because they are of a particular gender when a competent, spiritually minded woman could do an excellent job as elder? And they do have a point. I have attended a church where there have been male elders who have never preached a sermon, given a Bible study, would be too shy to pray with someone. But the female elder preaches, keeps the church running smoothly, takes care of church business, visits the sick and prays with them, can give a Bible study. My personal thought about such situations is that the described situation is also a symptom of males not being trained up to serve the church in such a capacity. Having said this, it saddens my heart when there is a lack of godly male leadership in the church.
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Glen McCluskey on January 20, 2019, 03:13:43 PM
Quote
Excellent question and observation, Br Myers! Exactly.
I do appreciate your reasoning on this topic. I hope you won't mind if I add some thoughts of my own as a woman in her middle years who has been an SDA for all of her life. The comment I have frequently heard women make - and I think their point needs to be heard and acknowledged - is that it is not uncommon for a church to have inept, incompetent male candidates for the position of elder. And they ask, why should a person be given an office of church authority because they are of a particular gender when a competent, spiritually minded woman could do an excellent job as elder? And they do have a point. I have attended a church where there have been male elders who have never preached a sermon, given a Bible study, would be too shy to pray with someone. But the female elder preaches, keeps the church running smoothly, takes care of church business, visits the sick and prays with them, can give a Bible study. My personal thought about such situations is that the described situation is also a symptom of males not being trained up to serve the church in such a capacity. Having said this, it saddens my heart when there is a lack of godly male leadership in the church.
Hi Marelis, I'm not an advocate of WO, but would like to expand on what you're saying in a couple of directions.
In the first place, my impression is that both sides in the WO debate are driven primarily by policy or philosophy, rather than by truly seeking God's will. As you say, excluding women while allowing unqualified men to serve doesn't make any sense, and can hardly be God's plan for the church.
I'd be in favor of an approach where we spend most of our effort humbling ourselves before the Lord and asking Him who He wishes to lead us. Some of the people the Lord selects might be surprising to both liberals and conservatives.
This in turn leads to another observation, which is that the qualifications of God's end-time leaders are not necessarily the same as in a conventional church setting. The Bible mentions sons and daughters prophesying (Joel 2:28), kings and priests who serve God day and night in His temple (Revelation 1:6, 5:10, 7:13-15), and a group of people who follow Christ wherever He goes (Revelation 14:1-5).
I'm not aware of any male / female angles on these types of leaders, and if a woman asked me how she could make the maximum use of her spiritual talents, my advice would be the same as what Ellen White said -- strive to be one of the 144,000 (RH 3/9/1905).
My favorite example of this sort of thing is the SOP quote below, that talks about the role of the 144,000 in the "closing work for the church". It appears that these people will serve as divine agents in the fulfillment of Ezekiel 9, and I would assume that such individuals will be an equal mix of men and women.
When the Lord takes the reins of the church (TM 299), the people He uses may be different from the people we would select in a conventional church context.
Quote
The true people of God, who have the spirit of the work of the Lord and the salvation of souls at heart, will ever view sin in its real, sinful character. They will always be on the side of faithful and plain dealing with sins which easily beset the people of God. Especially in the closing work for the church, in the sealing time of the one hundred and forty-four thousand who are to stand without fault before the throne of God, will they feel most deeply the wrongs of God's professed people. This is forcibly set forth by the prophet's illustration of the last work under the figure of the men each having a slaughter weapon in his hand. One man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side. "And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof." {3T 266.2}
Who are standing in the counsel of God at this time? Is it those who virtually excuse wrongs among the professed people of God and who murmur in their hearts, if not openly, against those who would reprove sin? Is it those who take their stand against them and sympathize with those who commit wrong? No, indeed! Unless they repent, and leave the work of Satan in oppressing those who have the burden of the work and in holding up the hands of sinners in Zion, they will never receive the mark of God's sealing approval. They will fall in the general destruction of the wicked, represented by the work of the five men bearing slaughter weapons. Mark this point with care: Those who receive the pure mark of truth, wrought in them by the power of the Holy Ghost, represented by a mark by the man in linen, are those "that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done" in the church. Their love for purity and the honor and glory of God is such, and they have so clear a view of the exceeding sinfulness of sin, that they are represented as being in agony, even sighing and crying. Read the ninth chapter of Ezekiel. {3T 267.1}
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Richard Myers on January 21, 2019, 09:11:02 AM
Sister Marelis, you are so very correct. Many of our churches have elders that ought not be elders. When a church has no men capable of leading he church, then capable (converted) women need to do so. I do not mean to make them kings, but to do that which men cannot do. Do we not see this in the Bible, and even in our day when God chose a woman to speak through rather than the two men who would not? And, look at what she had to work with in the church. Yes, there were some capable me, but not many. And, three that God did work through, did not continue on and will not be in heaven.
You are right also in expressing the idea that men are not being trained properly. Many have gone through our schools and have not been educated according to Scripture and the counsel given through the woman prophet. Many of our men and women have been buried alive and remain in a Laodicean condition.
Thank you Brother Glen for sharing. You are so right that there is a work to do that does not require ordination. When revival and reformation comes, and it has begun, then new leaders will be chosen. But, not all will serve as presidents of conferences. And, it may be that all of these presidents might not be included in the 144,000. One need not be ordained by the church to fulfill the work one is called to. God's ordination is higher than that of man. And, all ordained of God will not be seeking that which He has not given.
Today, the Holy Spirit is circling the world seeking entrance into the hearts of men, women, and children. We ought to be more concerned about the condition of our hearts than our standing before man. Soon there will be no more opportunity to repent of our sins. Jesus has almost completed His work in the heavenly sanctuary. When He does, there will be no more forgiveness of sin. There will no Mediator to stand between God and the sinner. This ought to cause all to better understand their standing before God today.
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Marelis on January 22, 2019, 11:09:16 AM
I think that's it, Br Myers. At this point in Earth's history our first work is to ensure we are right with God and are being made fit for heaven. And having a sense of urgency for souls, male or female, we will do God's work wherever and at whatever level He calls us.
I do want to understand, though, what work/duties you don't think a woman ought to be ideally doing in the church.
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: colporteur on January 22, 2019, 08:41:03 PM
I think that's it, Br Myers. At this point in Earth's history our first work is to ensure we are right with God and are being made fit for heaven. And having a sense of urgency for souls, male or female, we will do God's work wherever and at whatever level He calls us.
I do want to understand, though, what work/duties you don't think a woman ought to be ideally doing in the church.
Mrs. White answers that question. Marelis
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Marelis on January 22, 2019, 11:30:12 PM
Shouldn't...Preach? Teach? Sit on board meetings and nominating committees?
Should...Visit and help the poor, sick and the widows? Clean the church? Provide for potlucks?
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Richard Myers on January 23, 2019, 11:53:35 AM
Sister Marelis, all of the above, but with explanation. Women ought not be teaching men according to the man who wrote most of the New Testament.
The Bible says that women ought not "usurp the authority over the man..." This leaves much unanswered, but it does establish that Genesis 3:16 does apply to church as well as home. Let us look at the statement in context so as to not read something into the verse that is not there. From 1 Timothy:
2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
The rebels do not acknowledge this truth. They may object to part of it, but not on the basis of culture as some have done. Also, I have not read of any who address the rest of the verses which explain why it is that Paul has stated a woman is not to usurp the authority over man such as ruling as a conference president or elder in a local church.
It appears to me in verse 12 that a woman ought not be teaching men in church. When we study the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy, it does not appear to me that this means a woman may not speak in church, may not preach in church, may not prophesy in church.
Women have been given one of the most important works that there could ever be, the rearing of children. Why was it that Moses, Daniel, Enoch, David, or John the Baptist were of such godly character? Moral character is developed to a great extent by age six. Who is it that has the greater responsibility to form this character? In today's world, many women have to a great degree neglected this opportunity and responsibility. They have their eyes on the things of this world, not on the rearing of their children in a manner that will give honor and glory to God.
The mother of Moses did what was right, and her children and her were blessed as was Israel and the world.
She kept the boy as long as she could, but was obliged to give him up when he was about twelve years old. From his humble cabin home he was taken to the royal palace, to the daughter of Pharaoh, “and he became her son.” Yet even here he did not lose the impressions received in childhood. The lessons learned at his mother’s side could not be forgotten. They were a shield from the pride, the infidelity, and the vice that flourished amid the splendor of the court.
How far-reaching in its results was the influence of that one Hebrew woman, and she an exile and a slave! The whole future life of Moses, the great mission which he fulfilled as the leader of Israel, testifies to the importance of the work of the Christian mother. There is no other work that can equal this. To a very great extent the mother holds in her own hands the destiny of her children. She is dealing with developing minds and characters, working not alone for time, but for eternity. She is sowing seed that will spring up and bear fruit, either for good or for evil. She has not to paint a form of beauty upon canvas or to chisel it from marble, but to impress upon a human soul the image of the divine. Especially during their early years the responsibility rests upon her of forming the character of her children. The impressions now made upon their developing minds will remain with them all through life. Parents should direct the instruction and training of their children while very young, to the end that they may be Christians. They are placed in our care to be trained, not as heirs to the throne of an earthly empire, but as kings unto God, to reign through unending ages. Patriarchs and Prophets, pg 244.
Notice again what was said. "There is no other work that can equal this." Sadly many mothers do not appreciate the opportunity they have been given by God. Blessed are those who do.
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Richard Myers on January 24, 2019, 06:40:11 AM
If we expand our study to see more of the context we will confirm that Genesis 3:16 is the foundation upon which Paul builds his teaching on the authority of man. It is not human wisdom, but the Word of God that establishes the truth that there is headship in the home and in the church. In verse 13 we find the word "for." What does that mean in the context of our study? The word "for" refers back to the statement Paul just made in verses ten through twelve. It tells us that these verses are true "because" of what follows in verses thirteen through fifteen. Verses thirteen through fifteen send us back to Genesis 3:16 and what happened in the Garden 6,000 years ago. What happened 6,000 years ago. Adam was created, then Eve. Paul states this is important for us to know in regards to authority. Then something else happened according to Paul and the account given in Genesis, Eve was deceived.
2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
3:16 Unto the woman He said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Rebellion disregards Paul's statement here and what was written in Genesis 3:16. It clearly states that a woman shall not rule over the man in church and in the home. In church, the elders, not women, are to teach the men. If there is no capable man, then we see in Scripture, as shameful as it may be, a woman who is capable ought to step up until a converted and grounded man can take the responsibility to do so. The same in the home. Often there is no godly man to lead out in morning and evening worship, then the woman ought to.
Is it shameful for women to rule over men? When rebuking Israel for the rebellion, God speaks: "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12. Read the chapter in context to make sure this is not God's way, but what happens when a people rebel against God and His prophets.
Thus, we may better understand the authority given to man by Scripture and the General Conference when in session three times in the last 30 years. And, as we study the Bible and church history, we find that it has always been so, until today in our modern society where our women and daughters now are told they must fight on the front line of battle because they are the very same as a man. The world has come into God's church.
The president of the North American Division is a leader in the rebellion is dead set on undoing what we just learned from Scripture regarding the headship of man. At the year end meeting of the NAD, he said "There is hooey in the male headship theology. It was never Seventh-day Adventist, it is not Seventh-day Adventist, and it is not going to become Seventh-day Adventist." "Our women in the North American Division who serve as pastors and leaders will be protected by the North American Division,,,,,,and every conference and union president in this place." Remnant Online (http://remnant-online.com/smf/index.php?topic=18639.msg193653#msg193653)
There is a separation taking place in the world and in the church. The weeds will be separated from the wheat by the truth. Let us pray for the church, that it may be prepared to receive Jesus at His soon coming.
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: ClaudiaThompson on March 08, 2019, 09:22:28 PM
Being that I apparently am now still regarded as being in "rebellion" to the Church, because of the fact that years ago I dared to expose the Church's most popular Minister who taught liberal error for what he really was, and now they won't even acknowledge my Church Membership because of it. I have the ability to view all of this from another perspective, I believe.
It kind of astonishes me how now everything is all turned around backwards, in that it used to be that the "Conservatives" understood all about being Independent Ministries, and they also understood that the Conference Leaders were actualy in opposition to them. Now however, they are able to take advantage of the fact that there is a new Generation of SDA who know next to nothing about the past. Somehow they have been convinced that those at the very top are their 'Friends'.
It used to be that we knew and understood that the man at the very top who was involved in the Merikay Silver Case about Women getting the same wages as Men who were performing the same job was actually comparing our Women to 'Catholic Nuns' and others in our Church to 'Catholic Cardinals'. You know, the thing where our top Church Official said that the Great Controversy's ideas about the Catholic Church being 'bad' should be thrown into thr trash.
It used to be that we could see and realise that this idea against Women having important positions in the Church was actually motivated by something else than they think it is now. Always remember that the Catholic Church has Her own reasons for doing things like making Preists be celibate and so on. They do not think like we do. Always keep in mind too just how tricky Jesuits are. They use something called "Acculturation" and Inculturation. One of these has to do with doing all that they can to act like they are adopting another Church's beliefs and pracitces, so that they will be trusted, so that then they can get in their and change things.
And boy do I think that this has taken place in our Church! The line of Relatives that are kind of like 'the Bush Family' in our Church have managed to persuade our Conservatives that they are suddenly on 'their' side, and are now their best buddies. They have used this Women's Ordination issue to their advantage in this and hardly any of the Conservatives can even see what is going on. You have to be kind of like 'removed' from it all, like from the outside looking in, to realise it, as I am. These same Leaders, back in the day, were the ones who were covering up for that same Minister that I exposed way back then, and trying to spread rumors all over the World about me, to make it appear that I was 'insane', and all because they were using this same Minister in reality- to ecumenise with the other Churches. Now all of a sudden the same top Leader's Son comes along and convinces the Conservatives that he is their best Friend, and using the Women's Ordination issue to do it, and convincing them all that those on the other side are 'in Rebellion' to the Church Leadership.
The entire thing is a thing used to divert people from the real issues anyway, from the start, in that -- who in their right mind in this Omega of Apostasy would actually want to put themselves under the thumb or under the control of the Conference anyway, and become a Minister, whe they re not even really allowed to preach the real Three Angel's Gospel Message in the first place? They are forced to do things like the Jesuit Ignatius Loyola's Spiritual Exercises, the Jesuit's Spiritual Formation of the Church, --the said top Confernece leader beng one who sat as Chairman in making the decision to implement it it all when in reality we should not have even considered doing such a thing, let alone actually following through with it.
And then the Devil has us all wrapped up in whether or not WOMEN ought to be involed in these Jesuit practices and ideas and become Ministers too? I mean seriously, talk about being led to focusing upon the wrong thing!
I believe that the majority of our Conservatives in the SDA Church have almost lost the Plot completely, in that they have failed to read and understand that Ellen White, our Church Prophet told the Woman in our Church that they ought to be going out door to door and explaining the Scriptures to the people. She said that this is TRUE MINISTRY. That is what we, as Women, are supposed to be doing and focusing upon, not trying to place ourselves under the control of the Conference who will only hamper us in our Work of spreading the Three Angel's Messages.And that is what our Conservatives are supposed to be focusing upon. Cannot we see that this entire thing of Spiritual Formation is set up to try to rearrange things to turn our Denomination into essentially a Catholic one? Like the Catholic Hierarchy. You knlw, it's funny meant in a 'strange sense) that Samuelle Bacchiochi used to be known as probably being a Catholic Jesuit who infiltrated the Church with his book about Sunday and so on. We used to know that, the Independent Ministries. But then the same man goes and writes all against Women's ordination, and the Conservatives suddenly think that he is the greatest thing since sliced bread. You know what? He was exactly the same man in both cases, but they well know how to use issues to turn people around. It's the old NLP trick of 'reframing' things, first you agree with someone to make it appear you are on their side and view things the same way, then you slowly turn them to your own views.
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Richard Myers on March 10, 2019, 11:37:34 AM
Sister Claudia, I have read what you have posted and I am going to go spend some time in the garden and pray about how to respond. No one here is following a man. We have addressed the subject of women's ordination from Scripture, as I just pointed out. Read what I posted and respond to that. I will respond to your thoughts about the church when I know what to say and how to say it.
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Marelis on March 12, 2019, 12:14:05 AM
Hi Claudia. Your post has given me much to ponder. Agreeing with you re who [of us women] would in our right minds want to be ordained to work with the conference today? There's a great work to be done off the radar. I'll try to respond further to your post as time permits..
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Richard Myers on March 12, 2019, 10:11:44 PM
Sister Claudia, you see many wrongs in the church. This ought not surprise you or anyone who has studied the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy. Both tell us that this would be the situation in the seventh church, the last church, God's church. We also will be encouraged because the same Books tell us the church will see revival and reformation. So, we can rejoice knowing that prophecy has come true, and we have wisdom to have seen it.
I am so sorry for the difficulties you have had in the church. We can rejoice knowing that as we abide in Christ these trials work for our good and God's glory since we learn to be more patient and gain an experience that makes us more perfectly reflect the character of our Savior and Lord. Many places in Scripture tell us this, but none so clearly as Romans 5:3-5. "And not only [so], but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us." And we also notice that as we abide in Christ and experience great trials, we are His witness to the world that there is a God in heaven who has power to transform sinners into saints.
I believe that the majority of our Conservatives in the SDA Church have almost lost the Plot completely, in that they have failed to read and understand that Ellen White, our Church Prophet told the Woman in our Church that they ought to be going out door to door and explaining the Scriptures to the people. She said that this is TRUE MINISTRY. That is what we, as Women, are supposed to be doing and focusing upon, not trying to place ourselves under the control of the Conference who will only hamper us in our Work of spreading the Three Angel's Messages.And that is what our Conservatives are supposed to be focusing upon. Cannot we see that this entire thing of Spiritual Formation is set up to try to rearrange things to turn our Denomination into essentially a Catholic one? Like the Catholic Hierarchy. You knlw, it's funny meant in a 'strange sense) that Samuelle Bacchiochi used to be known as probably being a Catholic Jesuit who infiltrated the Church with his book about Sunday and so on. We used to know that, the Independent Ministries. But then the same man goes and writes all against Women's ordination, and the Conservatives suddenly think that he is the greatest thing since sliced bread. You know what? He was exactly the same man in both cases, but they well know how to use issues to turn people around. It's the old NLP trick of 'reframing' things, first you agree with someone to make it appear you are on their side and view things the same way, then you slowly turn them to your own views.
You are so very right that we do not need to be ordained, neither man nor woman. Would we rather be ordained by God or the conference? And, God ordains women as well as men, but not to rule over men. The church does not have all things right. Ordination does not have to be required to be a conference president. How about requiring that a conference president must be a man? That was easy.
And, dear sister, who ever said that a conservative was always right? To think this would lead one to be easily deceived. For wolves have come into God's church dressed in conservative sheep's clothing. Just because they say they follow the Bible and say they believe in the Spirit of Prophecy, and they say they believe in victory over sin, does not mean they really believe these things or do them. And, "spiritual formation" is not the omega of apostasy. The "omega" will be more difficult to see, and conservatives will be involved. The more truth, the more subtle to deception. If possible the very elect shall be deceived, but they will not because they have spiritual discernment being filled with the Spirit.
By the way, one the verses you like, I pray frequently, Matthew 9:38. The workers are so very few, but not for long. Jesus is coming soon. Let us keep our eyes upon Jesus, for the third angels message begins with the story of the Jesus, the gospel of grace. As we spend time contemplating His grace, we shall have our focus in the right direction. Join with us in reading Desire of Ages daily. It lifts us up above the darkness of this world.
Its good to see you back with us. I pray a blessing for you and us as we share with each other what God is doing in our lives daily.
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Richard Myers on March 07, 2020, 04:45:45 PM
The Whole Life Church is a Seventh-day Adventist Church. It was the Florida Hospital SDA Church. They think they are funny in attacking Scripture and the church. One day it will be clear what they have done.
Title: Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
Post by: Richard Myers on August 09, 2023, 07:52:31 AM
We have not been discussing the expansion of the rebellion. It is obvious there are two groups forming in the world and in the church. What we are seeing in the church did not come about without a cause. It is the result of the Laodicean condition within the church. Many in the church including ministers remain in a Laodicean state. They believe they are rich and increased with goods, but know not they are miserable, wretched, poor, and blind, and naked. Thus the reason for the perplexities in the church.
The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ (Manuscript 148, 1897). { 6BC 1075.7 }
The solution given in the message found in Rev. chapter three is the same message Jesus gave to Nicodemus. We must buy of Him gold tried in the fire which is faith that works by love, His love. Until the church sees revival and reformation the rebellion will continue to bring reproach upon God, His Word, and His church. Let us be faithful witnesses of the power of that love to transform sinners into saints.
No truth does the Bible more clearly teach than that what we do is the result of what we are. To a great degree the experiences of life are the fruition of our own thoughts and deeds.
“The curse causeless shall not come” ( Proverbs 26:2). “Say ye to the righteous, that it shall be well with him.... Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him” ( Isaiah 3:10, 11). “Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts” ( Jeremiah 6:19). Terrible is this truth, and deeply should it be impressed. Every deed reacts upon the doer. Never a human being but may recognize, in the evils that curse his life, fruitage of his own sowing. Yet even thus we are not without hope....
Jacob resorted to fraud, and he reaped the harvest in his brother’s hatred. Through twenty years of exile he was himself wronged and defrauded.... But God says: “... I have seen his ways, and will heal him....” ( Isaiah 57:18). Jacob in his distress was not overwhelmed. He had repented, he had endeavored to atone for the wrong to his brother. And when threatened with death through the wrath of Esau, he sought help from God.... “He wept, and made supplication” ( Hosea 12:4). “And he blessed him there” ( Genesis 32:29).... The power of evil in his own nature was broken; his character was transformed....
God does not annul His laws. He does not work contrary to them. The work of sin He does not undo. But He transforms. Through His grace the curse works out blessing. Conflict and Courage pg10.