Author Topic: Justification by Faith  (Read 133343 times)

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James Saptenno

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #120 on: July 02, 2001, 09:35:00 AM »
Quote.
James, what do you do with the above thoughts? In light of the scripture quoted above, it seems to me that you would need to find an interpretation of Rom 3.23 that is in harmony with those quoted above.

God Bless,

Steve

[This message has been edited by sdboyd (edited 04-22-2001).]

Sorry for a late reply as I was on a bisniz trip for about two months to remotes area and can not make any access to the internet.

Borther Steve.

All verses what you quote is correct. But the gospel of Christ is very clear that believers are saved by God grace through faith, and righteousness come by faith and not by works of the Law.

A believer remain a sinner until Christ come because he can never reach sinless perfection against the Law, only Christ can do that.

Why Christ can have a sinless perfection and we can not? Because the Spirit is His nature but the flesh is not His native flesh. Christ knew all the tendency and weakness of the flesh but he never sinned as living after the Spirit is His nature.

But a believer his nature is sinful flesh, and the Spirit is just a gift, it is not his nature. Living after the flesh is his nature, and living after the Spirit is a choice taken because of faith in Christ.
And that makes life can never be perfect, sinless perfection can never attained in this mortal body, that is why all righteous believers must be transformed to a glorius body at Christ second advent which indicates we are still sinners, and can not entering heaven in thhis old body as we might sin again in heaven.

And as the righteousness of the Law is absolute, then all believers must die if the Law  is still a standard of living and standard of judgment.

But thanks God, Christ has abolish the Law at the cross (Ephesians 2:15) as it function ended with His death. Believers in Christ didn't need the Law any longer to led them to Christ as they were in Christ allright (Galatians 3:21-25), we are all sons of God by faith. And the only law that rules the sons of God is the same law thhat rules heaven, the law of LOVE, or the spirit of the written Law, the Decalogue.

The Law lead only to death by keeping it.

That is why believers are not under the Law but under grace, as they are not keeping the Law anylonger, but remain saved by God's grace through faith.

And being in Christ through faith, we bear fruit of the Spirit which is love.  And love is the fulfilment of the Law.

For believers or sons of God, there are only the principe of the Law or love as the principe of heaven which connect each other and with God.

Thats mean, keeping the Law to reach moral perfection is absurd, as by keeping the Law only lead to death.

In His love

James S.


Liane H

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #121 on: July 03, 2001, 05:58:00 PM »
Hi James:

For the time being I am going to write out Romans 8. I am not quite sure what you are saying, but it seems to go against everything I know regarding our relationship with Christ, the 144,000 and as Jesus stated, "Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect," is not just idle words.

Romans 8:

1. "(There is) therefore now no comdemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirt.
2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.
4. That the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT.
5. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; BUT THEY THAT ARE AFTER THE SPIRIT THE THINGS OF THE SPIRIT.
6. For to be carnally minded (is) death; but to be spiritually minded (is) life and peace.
7. Because the carnal mind (is) enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9. But ye are not of the flesh, BUT IN THE SPIRIT, if so be that the Spriit of God DWELL IN YOU. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10. And if Christ (be)in you, the body (is) dead because of sin; but the Spirit (is)life because of righteosness.
11. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, THEY ARE THE SONS OF GOD.
15. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of ADOPTION, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, THAT WE ARE THE CHILDREN OF GOD:
17. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with (him), that we may be also glorified together."

The very Spirit in which Jesus kept the Law has been given to us as well. In Christ we are given the power to obey. Jesus was subjected to the flesh just as we are, but He sinned not.

The very power that kept Him from sinning is the same power that has been given to us to not sin. Jesus stated very clearly that nothing was done by His will, but by the will of the Father, which he subjected himself to daily in prayer.

The law (10 Commandments) was not abolished at the cross. It still stands as the standard that God has set before us to reflect His Character. Each one of those 10 laws reflects a God and his love. It says, I care about you. He set these standards for our protection and guideposts to know Him.

I have written this many times: Law of Love and Love of Law are one in the same. You cannot look at one without the other. The law is the reflection of love and love is a reflection of the law. You cannot abolish something at the cross that interwinds as a rope to heaven.

Man is the one that turned the law into legal precepts and lost the meaning and the love written in the law. Jesus said: I come not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. The wages of sin is death, Sin is the transgression of the law. Jesus had to take our sins to the cross because the law required that death is required. If we sin today, the law stands to condemn us. So the law has not been abolished. But when we repent, ask for forgiveness, Jesus faithful and just to forgive us.

If there is no law, then there cannot be sin. For the law is the mirror in which we know if we have sinned. When we are under grace, it means that we are keeping the law of God, because we are not sinning. The minute we take our eyes off Jesus, we turn to self and sin, we no longer are under grace, but now condemned by the law.

At that point we need to seek Jesus and be re-justified and be under grace once again. Grace is not a once in a lifetime gift given to us at the cross, but a daily request that we need to experience each day of our lives. Paul states I die daily. 1 Cor 15:31. We each need to do that.

The flesh becomes dead to sin, we are now walking in the Spirit unto Christ Jesus as our example. The more we behold Jesus in our lives, the more we become like Him. Jesus kept the Law, in obedience to the Father. We can also keep the law, through the power of the Holy Spirit to both Jesus and the Father.

If I understand anything, in Christ, if I walk in the Spirit with Christ, this body is already dead, when I keep my eyes on Jesus. Only when I look back at self, does my body come to life once again.

The choice is mine.

Liane

 

[This message has been edited by liane (edited 07-07-2001).]

Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Richard Myers

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #122 on: July 07, 2001, 09:25:00 AM »
Amen, Sister Liane.  You have not taken these verses out of context. They answer the statements of our Brother James.  The robe of righteousness that is given to the sinner does not cover any unforsaken or unconfessed sins. The robe is the character of our Saviour. He imparts it to us. The law is a law of love and if we sin, we do not have this love. If we kill, if we steal, if we lie, we have not the love that is revealed by the indwelling Saviour.

In His love and grace,     Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

DHThiele

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #123 on: July 07, 2001, 11:25:00 AM »
Justification by Faith

Righteousness by Faith

Well, let's look at the word Righteousness first.

A definition of Righteousness is doing the right thing at the right time in the right way.

But where does Righteousness originate from? If I say that it originates with me, then I am either God or a liar.

A definition of Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (NKJV).

But where does Faith originate from? If I say that it originates with me, then I am either God or a liar.

Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God."

Ephesians 2:9 "not of works, lest anyone should boast."

Ephesians 2:10 "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Now, when the Jews came to Jesus, they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" (John 6:28) Jesus responded, "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." (John 6:29)

So now we come to the paradox of whether Abraham was justified by faith (according to Paul) or by faith and works (according to James).

Romans 4:2 "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God." This is obviously reference to works which humans claim to have originated. Paul is being consistent with Ephesians 2:9. Whenever man claims to originate righteousness (good works) it is a lie.

Romans 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." This tells us the direction Paul is going from verse 2. One must believe. It is consistent with John 6:29.

But Jesus concluded that the act of believing on the one whom God sent is WORK. Any act that is of FAITH is WORK. Hence the consistency with Ephesians 2:10.

Now, Abraham believed the promise. But not at first, or else he never would have taken Hagar to bear a son for Sarah. So God gave the promise again, and Abraham believed, even to the point that he sent Hagar and Ishmael away when they ridiculed Isaac.

Galatians hammers the point home that circumcision is not what saves a person. It is grace. The works are not done to justify a person before God. The works are done as a fruit of faith, to show the faith is alive and not dead. But because the works are of faith, the works justify, not because they originate from any single human, but because they originate from God (the only One who justifies).

Having said all this, let us remember that "Justification is not a transformation of inherent character; it does not impart righteousness any more than condemnation imparts sinfulness." In order for that transformation of inherent character to take place, there must be more than mere imputed righteousness. There must be imparted righteousness. That is why we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works.

In and of themselves, good works cannot save us. But God has ordained that good works have a saving influence on us. And they do, as long as we recognize that they cannot and do not originate from us.


Liane H

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #124 on: July 07, 2001, 12:37:00 PM »
Brother Thiele:

Thank you for a well thought and written post of Justification.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that Works must not originate with us, in which if it does orginate from us, it is corrupted by the flesh and does not come from God.

Le me take it one step further.

We need to go back to James 2:18:

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee faith BY MY works."

By my works, means the works that has been given to us by the power of the Holy Spirit, to glorify God to the world. When we give our will to Him, it is the power from above that comes from God, that is reflected through us for the world to see.

Faith is the substance hoped for, which means we walk in faith and do and say things that comes not from us, but are reflected through the works that we do which others may see the glory of God in us. What they see, will desire in their own hearts to be like Him.  

When we do good works for others and that person in gratitude says, what a good person you are, we often say thank you and fail to give the glory to God who gave us the power of those good works toward that person.

We should remind ourselves to stop saying thank you, but state in some form: I am glad you appreciate what has been done, but only because of Him, is there any good in me and those deeds come not from me, but Him who has transformed me to do these good works.    

We can say we are justified by Faith, but without evidence clearly seen by others, it is just words. Just as Love of Law and Law of Love is entwined in the character of God, so is Faith and Works entwined in the believer from the power that comes from above.  

The substance hoped for, is not the things we hoped for while we were in the world, but a substance called character that reflects Jesus in all ways possible. We we reach out in faith, we do not really even know what we are seeking. It grows in us. It is substance that forever changes our works that wants to hear "thank you" to "this is what Jesus has done to me."  

Liane

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Allan F

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #125 on: July 08, 2001, 01:24:00 PM »
Thiele and Liane, thank you for your thoughts on this subject.

Brother Thiele, it is indeed true what you said: "Galatians hammers the point home that circumcision is not what saves a person."

This lead my mind to the book Steps To Christ, where the writer points out two dangers for the (new) christian.
The first danger is to build on ones own works, to beleive that works that we do will bring us into harmony with God, and to try to be holy through our own works.

The second, great danger is to beleive that  our works have nothing to do concerning salvation and to beleive that we don't need to keep God's commandments.

These two dangers she specifically points out in this book. I can agree with her in that, and if we look into the bible history we can see how true her words are.

When you therefore says that "Galatians hammers the point home that circumcision is not what saves a person", I say amen to that.

What i find interesting is Paul's use of the expression "circumcision". In ch. 2 he says that circumcision symbolizes the circumcision of the heart made by the Holy Spirit, which causes a man to fulfill the requirements of the law. In v. 25 he says that "circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumscision is made uncircumcision."

With this in mind let us then go to ch. 4 where Paul goes on with circumcision. He says in v. 11 and 12 that Abraham "received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that beleive, though they be not circumcised: that righteousness might be imputed unto them also. And the Father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised."

We clearly see that the circumcision made on the flesh does not save. We are not justified by circumcision made on the flesh or any other works which we may do. It is the circumcision made by the Spirit that counts.
Later, in his letter to Titus, Paul writes that "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of The Holy Ghost, which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour: That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life" (Tit 3:5-7).

Allan F


Richard Myers

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #126 on: July 08, 2001, 03:43:00 PM »
Amen, amen, and amen!!  :)  Unity in the Spirit and in doctrine.  Yes, our good works must be from a heart filled with the Spirit of God. "But ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delived you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."  Romans 6:17,18.

Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

jherbertthompson

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #127 on: July 08, 2001, 03:56:00 PM »
Brother's and Sister's.

As important a topic as Righteousness or Justification by Faith are, I sometimes wonder if some of us [at least in my Church family] clearly *miss the point* regarding what they *are* or *mean*!   :(

Sister Liane.  In other forums, I find that there are indeed *two ditches* as it were regarding this concept of "Holiness in the Flesh" or, "Holiness" doctrine...Perhaps, if I start where I understand this, you, or someone else could enlighten me as to the way you or the SDA church teach?  "confused"

Where our first parent's fell because of their distrust in their Creator; the second Adam [Jesus] took their place.

Christ was born in perfect *holiness, righteousness, godliness*.  He came to this world as God.  He was as Adam was prior to the fall [--perfect--without the propensity to sin].  And, as you pointed out, "the very power that kept Him from sinning is the same power that has been given to us."  The *key* to this is that without the *propensity to sin* Christ's daily battle was *not to use His Power, Glory, or Might*; for, to do so would disqualify Him as *Mediator/Saviour*, and would then give credibility to Satan's allegation that God's Law "could not be kept".  How we doing so far?  "confused"  
Or, as you put it, "Jesus stated very clearly that nothing was done by His will, but by the will of the Father, which he subjected himself to daily in prayer.  The very Spirit in which Jesus kept the Law has been given to us as well. In Christ we are given the power to obey. Jesus was subjected to the flesh just as we are, but He sinned not."

No one then, not even the most degraded junky, may say that "Christ was not tempted as he/she is tempted.  Christ was in fact tempted in three areas throughout His ministry here on this earth...*Apitite, Pride of Life, and Self-agrandizement*.  [pardon my spelling!  :|]  How am I doing so far?

Or as you put it, "the very power that kept Him from sinning is the same power that has been given to us to not sin."

Here, however, I believe that there needs to be a *new definition*:  Following our parent's fall in Eden, all since, have been born with the *propensity to sin*...This propensity is as Paul speaks [Romans 3:23]; and David, [Psalms 51:5]

>>>The law (10 Commandments) was not abolished at the cross. It still stands as the standard that God has set before us to reflect His Character. Each one of those 10 laws reflects a God and his love. It says, I care about you. He set these standards for our protection and guideposts to know Him.

Yes, these Ten *guideposts* as-it-were, were ment to reflect the *character, nature, and government* of God...Because God is a "relationship Being or Deity", the first four of these tenents our relating to our *relationship with Himself*...the last six are regarding to our *relationships to each other*...elementary, there is more...Consider this equation:  [1]Pentatateuch = [2] Judges = [3] Prophets = [4] Minor Prophets = [5] Gospels = [6] Letters = [7] Apocrypha = SOP.

I have often referenced the OT as being a period of *justification by faith*; and NT as *righteousness by faith*...The OT looked *forward to* and the NT [following the Gospel's] *looked back on* or followed through with *grace, "through faith"*; not "works, lest any man should boast"; but "works, *because of, and subsequent too* faith throught grace"...You still with me?

Our Sabbath School Lesson Last week made some insightful comments regarding this issue.  I therefore will not try to re-state what I *think* is the obvious...

>>>Man is the one that turned the law into legal precepts and lost the meaning and the
love written in the law. Jesus said: "I come not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it."
I would like to share a study which has been shared with me regarding the *law* which *was* or *was not* abolished...If you are interested... :)  And, as to the remainder of your post [07-03-01] I will wait for further comment from either you or other's.  :)

Brother Myers.  I have a growing, yet distinct feeling that you and I are somehow failing to communicate some very basic *truths*...whether semantics, or real differences I am not sure...One thing I am sure of is, at least at this point, I will merely *agree to disagree* with you on several points in your post of 06-20, and 06/30...However, your amen to sister Liane's comments on 07/07, a BIG AMEN...  :)

It follows then that *righteousness or justification by faith* is more than a *keeping* of the law...The Jew's at the time of Christ were, [in-so-as far as it appeared to the Angel's and on-looking Universe] were *keeping the letter of the law*, but were without the *Spirit by which the Law had been given*...Crucifying Christ on a Friday afternoon, they took Him and the other's from their respective crosses and hurried home for their "Passover Sabbot"...what irony...

The point which I am trying to make here is that it is (IMO) absolutely without merit that we should get into a heated discussion regarding most of these issues...For the most part, we varry very little from the same concepts...And, as a new follower of Christ and *His way of doing things*, I find that I struggle most with the *image* of God I portray to the world around me; rather than the doctrin's or litheragy of Adventism... :)
[That should pull some hair!  :o  And I really do not intend to do so.  There are times however, I think there is a point where when being *honest* and *saying the "right things" really get messed up!]

The *Holiness doctrin* is a BIG subject...and, one which for a few months now I have run-up-against in other, private conversations...Further more, it is not at all my wish to come pointedly against someone concerning what they believe or what they are saying here in this forum...I really am a *honest, truth seeking* Christian...But, I do wish to know what I believe; why I believe it; and be able to *back-it-up* wholly from the Bible when and where ever asked... :)

May God richly bless all.  Your brother in Christ.  


Gary K

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #128 on: July 08, 2001, 04:47:00 PM »
jherbert,

You said, "It follows then that *righteousness or justification by faith* is more than a *keeping* of the law...The Jew's at the time of Christ were, [in-so-as far as it appeared to the Angel's and on-looking Universe] were *keeping the letter of the law*, but were without the *Spirit by which the Law had been given*..."

Now, could you provide proof of this statement that the Jews at the time of Jesus were keeping the law in the eyes of the Angels and the Universe?  I find this to be a most difficult proposition to swallow.  Where did you come up with this bit of knowledge?  I find nothing in the Bible or the SOP that says anything even remotely similar to this.

What I do see is that there was open cheating of the poor in the temple (theft), the slaying of one of the high priests at the altar (murder), and a kind of general agreement that Simon the Pharisee was the man that led Mary Magdalene into sin (adultery).  Also, if this were so, why did John the Baptist preach repentence and the turning away from sin?  If there was no external evidence of sin, where did his message come from?  What gave his message credibility among the masses? Also, the Jews were filled with hatred of the Samaritans and Romans.  Hatred cannot exist in the heart without it being expressed in the actions of the life.  Now, how is this outward fulfilling of the law in the eyes of the universe and the angels?


Richard Myers

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #129 on: July 09, 2001, 05:54:00 AM »
Brother Herbert, our Brother Gary has a good point. The law is much broader than most imagine and the angels understand it. To say the Jews were keeping the letter of the law could be argued against.  :)

But, I know what you are saying, so let us look at it. The basis of much of Paul's writing takes into consideration what you say and Jesus in His sermon on the mount did also. Today, as in the time of Christ, many are "keeping the law" without having the Spirit of Christ dwelling within. Of course they are not keeping the law as they need to, but they profess to and to many in the church they "appear" to be keeping the law.

What we fail to understand correctly that "keeping the law" extends to the motives of why we keep the law. If we keep the law for selfish reasons, we are not keeping the law. The law is "spiritual" in nature. It is impossible to keep the law without Jesus in the heart. Self must die before we can keep the law the way God has told us to keep the law.

Let us look at the law as Jesus gave it on the mount.  "I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the Judgment...I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart...I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in Heaven; for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them that love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?"

Yes, Brother Herbert, there can be an outward appearance of "keeping the law," but the angels see through it, some on this earth see the lack of the fruits of the Spirit also, and Jesus surely can see the false profession. In the investigative judgement the thoughts and the actions will testify as to where the heart is.

So, we agree that some will appear to be "keeping the law", but will not be in the eyes of God.  Keeping the law is to love God supremely and our neighbor as ourselves. We want to keep the commandments as we were instructed. We want to obey God in all that we know, not just a few superficial laws. This brings to light all of the "little" things in life. No need to go into detail in this thread, but we all know there are "little" things that we need to do in order to please God.  :) To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

In His love and grace,        Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Richard Myers

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #130 on: July 09, 2001, 06:02:00 AM »
Can we see evidence of conversion (having been justified)in our lives and in the lives of others? Yes, of course we can. God has given us instruction in this. I know that it comes as a surprise to many because of the false teachings that abound, but it is true.

Here is one such statement that tells us how to know we are converted (justified). "Hereby  we do know that we know Him if we keep His commandments." 1 John 2:3.

There are others, can anyone share more?

In His love and grace,       Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

jherbertthompson

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #131 on: July 09, 2001, 04:28:00 PM »
Brother's.  In regard to "conversion"...We are of course speaking of the "heart experience" which Jesus spoke to Nicodemus?
I have asked a number of people within this "Adventist" community whether their personal experience with Jesus has caused or affected
their own lives, or the livesn of other's they might know...Are they the same people they were say one year ago?  How about five years ago? Or ten, twenty, fifty years ago.  The answer to this question is miserable in my estimation...very few say that it has caused any real difference; at least in behavior; and even worse, in their personal worship, or witness.

Justification, however, comes at the moment of the *conversion* of the heart...We still have a choice as to whether or not we will continue in the *conversion experience*; or whether or not we will simply drift into a pew-sitting, nominal christian... ???

Sometime ago I tried to divide the position of justification, sanctification; imputed and imparted righteousness...I'm still not clear about these concepts...Perhaps some would like to pick those up along with the current discussion?

Sincerely your brother in Christ.


Gary K

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #132 on: July 09, 2001, 10:25:00 PM »
jherbert,

I would ask since when is the lack of surrender to-, faith in-, trust in-, and relationship with Jesus proof against the word of God?  Faith is the evidence of things not seen.  Just because we don't see the reality right now doesn't make the promises of God bad.  One thing I have learned is that God ALWAYS keeps HIS word.  We may not meet the conditions He has laid down for the reception of His promised blessings, but that is not His fault.

Jesus says, hitherto ye have asked nothing in My name, ask, and ye shall recieve, that your joy may be full.

Can we be full of joy if we have the knowledge of guilt because of unconfessed and unforsaken sin in our lives?  I say no. I say it is a spiritual and psychological impossibility, for guilt destroys joy.  So, when Jesus says ask that your joy may be full, what is He saying that we should ask for?


M.A. Crawford

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #133 on: July 10, 2001, 10:36:00 AM »
Bro. Thompson, the fact of the matter is ALL OF US who are true Christians and followers of Christ are trying to do that what is required to make it into God's Kingdom. No matter how "spirituall endowed" any of us think we are, the fact is THE SAME THING it takes for one to be saved is THE SAME THING it takes for us all. None of us have any more "brownie points" with God than anyone else because HE DOES NOT OPERATE THAT WAY. Having said that, let me touch briefly on an earlier point of mine above.

"...trying to do that what is required...."

The Bible tells us everything WE NEED TO KNOW in that regard. Notice, I did not say everything WE WANT TO KNOW, because many times we want to know that WHICH IS NOT ESSENTIAL or necessary for salvation. The Bible tells us in Ecclesiastes 12:13 to "...Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is THE WHOLE DUTY of man" (Emphasis mine). The Bible has made very simple that what mankind often likes to make very complex:

1. "Fear God."

This same pronouncement is mentioned in Revelation 14:7. There we are told to Fear God, and give glory to him...." And I like the marginal reading of the words "worship him" in the same verse. It is translated to mean "BOW DOWN TO." In other words, to "Fear God" means to give unto Him the PROPER REVERENCE AND RESPECT He is due as the High and Lofty One who inhabiteth Eternity (Isa. 57:15). We bow down to Him not only on our knees, but BY YIELDING our exalted and inflated ideas of what WE THINK is right to His Word and His Will as revealed in Scripture.

2. "Keep His Commandments."

To keep God's Commandments does not mean to focus only on the Decalogue. Jesus, speaking in John 15:14 said: "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you." In other words, in addition to the Ten Commandments, the Commandments of Jesus are WHATSOEVER HE TELLS US TO DO IN HIS WORD.

3. "This is the whole duty of man."

In other words, this is the whole duty of one who wishes to be saved. Plain and simple. There is no complex theological jargon needed here. Understanding what God requires unto salvation is really quite simple. WE HUMANS HAVE MADE IT DIFFICULT.

M.A.  

M.A.

jherbertthompson

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #134 on: July 10, 2001, 05:29:00 PM »
Brethren.  I've no idea why simple statements are so easly confused with agenda's and conjecture.  ???

Brother Gary...if I might be so naive as to ask where in the world did you come up with the reasoning that; "lack of surrender to -- faith in -- trust in -- and relationship with Christ remotely consents to a lack of worth or trust in the promises of God?

Yes, of course God always keeps His promises! We may not, however, understand the why's, wherefore's, etc...nor His timing -- in-as-much-as we would like to think He should be on *our time schedule*.

And also, without a doubt, there are *conditions* to His promises...Except for one.  Ah! You must say...Consider this...There is no *condition* to the promise that there would be emnity between the seed of the woman, and that of satan...Actually, if you look for them, on closer inspection you will find quite a number of these.  But I don't really think that this is the point I had tried to make [in the first place]!

It is no suprise to me that several of those participating in this discussion are terribly concerned with their *behavior* verses their *relationship*...You ask, how is this?
???

What level of *knowledge of our guilt* is required to retain salvation?  Must I remember and confess each and every sin ever committed in my life?  Dear friend...I have quite likely, at 50, forgotten many such *sins* -- like the candy gum ball I stole when only four... :)

Okay.  Then to what level are we suggesting our salvation is dependent?  And as for *forsaken sin*; I quite agree...Yet, with some I must totally disagree; as, it is not *method* but *birth* which, in the final analysis, saves or damns us...Like Cain -- he was not lost for the single sin of killing his brother -- far from it.  He had lived a life of disregard to the *comands and worship of God* to the point that his conscience was so seared he simply acted out in a continuation of his hatered and disloyalty toward God and His way of doing things...And did so in full knowledge of the *truth about God*; His nature, character, and government.  Need I go on with representative history which any and all can simply read for themselves out of their own Bible?

No, the *joy of our salvation* has absolutely nothing to do with our behavior as such..."For by grace, through faith, ye are healed -- set right -- restored..."  It is not the fact we are doing [and quite possibly, in the frame-work of that mind-set], or *not doing*...it really is *who you know, not what you know* that counts!  :)

At the cross, dear friends, we are all standing on equal ground.  We are all sinner's in need of *saving grace*.  Grace, I might add, which brings a *heart work* and produces obedience; not from a *forensic* standpoint; but, from a heart full of love toward a Creator God who has done so much for one so horribly sinful!

As said Jesus at Simons' party...he who is forgiven much, loves much...And, perhaps this is the problem with many third, fourth, and fifth generation Adventist's...Those I mean with the mind-set that they are, because of *who they are*; *a cut above everyone else*.
In my opinion, this is exactly the attitude the scribes and pharicees...and with no minced words, Jesus condemended them for it!

And finally, agreed.  Men, in their foolishness have made things complicated...And it is not!  :)  There is more to salvation than this however...We can believe -- and the devils believe and tremble...We may have the *truth*; yet doing nothing with it, we will shrivel up and die with it...And yes, we may even think we have a viable relationship with Jesus Christ, and be self-serving, full of pride, and forever lost.  :(

My apoligies to any and all who have, perhaps, had their toes steped on...It is my intention to bring a truely *primitive gospel* back to some of those who, having the *stuff*, merely make profession with their lips, thinking that they are *the remnant*...

Thing on these things...

Your brother in Christ



Gary K

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #135 on: July 10, 2001, 08:13:00 PM »
Hi Jherbert,

You asked this: "Brother Gary...if I might be so naive as to ask where in the world did you come up with the reasoning that; "lack of surrender to -- faith in -- trust in -- and relationship with Christ remotely consents to a lack of worth or trust in the promises of God?

I got that correlation from your post.  Here is what you said that I responded to: "I have asked a number of people within this "Adventist" community whether their personal experience with Jesus has caused or affected
their own lives, or the livesn of other's they might know...Are they the same people they were say one year ago? How about five years ago? Or ten, twenty, fifty years ago. The answer to this question is miserable in my estimation...very few say that it has caused any real difference; at least in behavior; and even worse, in their personal worship, or witness."

You stated that because, in your little survey, people weren't experiencing growth, that there must be something wrong. With that I agree. But what is the problem?    

What is wrong is not with the promises of God.  The reason people do not grow, become cold and stagnant, and go to sleep in the pews, is because we don't truly believe the word of God.  If we truly beleived the promise that whatsoever we asked for we recieved, where would our spiritual life be?  Would we be so lukewarm as to never grow in our spiritual lives?  Would we spend more time on the things of earth than on the things of heaven.  If heaven was so real to us that it filled our hearts and minds would we spend more time getting there than we do trying to get rich here?  If we truly believed that a soul is of infinite worth because the sacrifice of Jesus says it is so, would we sit back and complain the the preacher didn't give a very good sermon today?  Or, if we really believed this, would we be out searching for souls for the kingdom because we love them and don't want to see them lost?

What we believe is the basis of everything we do.  We act out what we think in our heart of hearts. As a man thinketh, so is he.  Do you really believe that? Or do you think we can harbor doubt and unbeleif and still be on fire for Jesus?

James gave us the answer to our problem.

James 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Notice that the spirit that is within us lusteth to envy, BUT HE GIVETH MORE GRACE.  What do you think that means?  Where sin abounds, grace doth more abound.  That is what it means.  Grace is the power to overcome sin. Do you really believe Paul when he says, Sin shall not have dominion over you?  He is telling us that sin shall not rule over us.  Is that what you are preaching here by faith in the promises of God, or are you spreading doubt upon the words of the Bible?

James earlier in his book says this:

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Wisdom is not the only thing that we don't receive because of our unbelief.  James says the guy that doubts that it is really going to happen doesn't need think that it is really going to happen, because he isn't going to recieve the promise. Why? Because he doesn't really think it is going to happen.

You seem to want to make this all about behavior, and it isn't.  The behaviors are the symptoms of the problem.  We think we have faith.  We don't.  Look at the lesson to be learned the lives of the disciples.  It wasn't until they truly believed that Jesus was exactly who He said He was that they were able to be filled with the Holy Spirit and accomplish the work that they were supposed to.  Our works are bad, our relationship with God is bad, because He isn't first in our lives.  All this is because of our unbelief.

How many times do you hear someone start claiming the promises of God and someone else comes along and says, that won't work, those promises don't really mean that?  I see it a lot.  When I say the promises of God mean exactly what they say they do, I am accused of "legalism, because I am trying to help God with my salvation."  If the promise comes from the OT I am told that the promises aren't really for us.

Is this faith and trust in the promises of God?  I hear nothing but doubt and discouragement preached in the sin problem.  I see you doing the same here. You may think you are "helping the poor old legalists" but you are actually spreading doubt upon the word of God.  For when promises are given, you give reasons why they don't mean just that.  That they really aren't meant to be literal.  That God isn't really omnipotent over sin.  Sin rules here in all of us is what I hear.  

Look what Paul says.

Corinthians II 10:1 Now I Paul myself beseech you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ, who in presence am base among you, but being absent am bold toward you:
2 But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds ; )
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Notice that he talks about those who think that "think of us as if we walked according to the flesh."  If you will get out your Strong's concordance you will find that Paul is saying that these people think that we walk according to the carnal nature.  Notice that he denies this explicitly in the next verse.  He says yes we walk in the flesh, but we don't war according to the flesh.  He goes on to say that the weapons made mighty through God are capable of casting down everything that gets in their way, no matter how high and powerful.  They will even bring every thought into captivity to the obedience of Jesus.

Since every thought is capable of being brought into captivity to the obedience of Jesus, where does that leave sin?

As you are reading this are you formulating your answer as to how these texts don't really mean that everything, including sin, can be made captive to the obedience of Jesus?  If you are, then you are casting doubt upon the plain promises of God.  If  you are, then you are denying that He truly is omnipotent.  If God is not capable of being stronger than sin in the lives of His faithful, trusting, believing followers, then sin and the devil are the most powerful things on earth, and God is not in control.

The God I worship is omnipotent. Any sin in my life is because I haven't surrendered it yet.  Not because I haven't overcome it on my own.  My problem is unbelief, just like everyone elses.  

[This message has been edited by Gary K (edited 07-10-2001).]


James Saptenno

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #136 on: July 12, 2001, 08:39:00 AM »
Sister Liane.

Sinning is not just an act. Since the fall, sin is part of us, we were born in sin as sin is in the flesh (Romans 7:17,20). This sin comes alive and appeared by the law (Romans 7:7,9,13), as without the law sin was dead (Romans 7:8), and will not be imputed if there is no law (Romans 5:13).

This sin is not our fault as we inherit that from Adam, and God can not condemn us because of this. But this sin disqualified us for heaven, as we will always remain a sinner in this flesh. Jesus said “ That which is born of the flesh is flesh” (John 3:6), and Paul said “ That flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” (I Corinthians 15:50). That means a man can never reach sinless perfection in this flesh as it is corrupted by sin, weakened by the desires of the flesh. If sinless perfection can be performed in this flesh, we don’t need to be changed in a glorious incorruptible body at Christ Second Advent and can enter heaven to continue a sinless perfected life there. But as we must experience a change of flesh to a glorious incorruptible flesh, that indicate we are sinner and remain a sinner, and we will sin again in heaven if we are not changed.

We can never have life by keeping the law because of the weakness of the flesh (Romans 8:3), we can never be righteous by keeping the law and claim our eternal life with that. God must do that for us through Christ, so that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us who live after the Spirit, so that we might have a holy life (Romans 8:4) as long as we never sinned. But that is impossible (I John 1:8,10), and the NT said that a man could never stand righteous before the law, except by his faith in Christ (Romans 3:28; Galatians 2:16; 3:11).

So, in order to be saved and inherit eternal life, the law must disappear and have no function for believer in Christ, otherwise the law will always condemn us to dead. And if there is no law, sin will not be imputed. This is saved by God grace, He gives us life even we don’t deserve that. But He can’t ask us to keep His law that condemn us while saving us by His grace. This is against each other. One of it must go.

And as it is a fact that sin is part of us, that we can never reach sinless perfection (only Christ can do that) and must be changed in order to enter heaven; then the only other way so that we will not stand under a constant condemnation is by making the law of no effect for us. That is the only solution. So that salvation is by grace, as we who are saved are sinners in the real meaning.

But our faith can not abolish the law as we have no right. Only Christ can do that. And He did it on the cross with His dead. As the law is only for the Jews and will comes to an end at John’s time (at the cross). It comes to an end because Christ has ended it.

Luke 16:16 - The law and the prophets were until John; since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Romans 10:4 – For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

The preaching of the kingdom of God is the preaching of the gospel of Christ, which is the preaching of salvation by God grace through faith in Jesus Christ. That righteousness could never be reached by keeping the law (Romans 3:28; Galatians 2:16; 3:11) and by that giving life (Galatians 3:21), instead by keeping it everybody will die as all will always be sinners before the law. But righteousness now comes by faith in Christ and with that life. Even though no one is righteous before the law, but all who believe will be saved.

That is why the law has no effect and no meaning for a believer, as a believer is already dead to the law. Romans 7:4 “ Wherefore my brethern, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ……” and Romans 7:6 “ But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held;” and Galatians 2:19 “ For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.”

The written law has no bounds whatsoever to a believer that remain in Christ by his faith. The law can not instruct and judge a believer because the law can not ask and judge a dead man. A believer is dead to the law. A believer no longer keep the written law (the Torah or the 10 Cs), but living a life after the Spirit (Romans 7:6), which is a life controlled and ruled by the Spirit in us. Philippians 2:13 “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.”

How could you say “if we sin today, the law stands to condemn us” while believing in Christ and knowing that “in Christ there is no condemnation” (Romans 8:1)? You made a contradiction, because you don’t understand or because you don’t believe.

Don’t you know if righteousness comes by faith in Christ then condemnation comes by unbelief, and not by the law, except you keep the law.

John 3:36 – He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth in him.

Hebrew 10:38 – Now the just shall live by faith; but if any man draw back, My Soul shall have no pleasure in him.

If you keep the law and believe that the law still stands as a standard of judgment, then you will do your best by keeping it in order not to be condemned by the law at the end. IOW you seek righteousness by the law to save you, but in fact before the law no one will stand righteous. That means you must die. Christ can not save you, as you don’t believe that you are righteous because of your faith in Him, and that you are no longer under the law but under grace (Romans 6:14).

Galatians 2:21 – I do not frustrate the grace of God; for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

By keeping the law in order not to be condemned by the law, you neglect the grace of God, which saved you even you are a sinner, and by that making Christ’s dead of no effect for you. He died in vain for you.

Galatians 5:4 – Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

It is a lie if a believer says that he keeps the law in order not to be condemned by the law, in fact he seeks righteousness by the law. Because what is the purpose of keeping the law if not for standing right before the law, for not to be condemned by the law.

The gospel of Christ did not allow a believer to keep the law while believing he is saved by God grace through faith. You can checked that in the whole NT, and you will find out that it is not the written law to keep, but the spirit of the law. The written law lead to dead, but the spirit of the law gives life. There is a big gap as far as east from west between the function of the law and the spirit of the law.

That is why the law comes to an end in Christ at the cross, blotted out and nailed at the cross. So that no believer in Christ will be judge by the law, as we are dead to the law, and dead to sin (Romans 6:2,6,7).

Colossians 2:14 – Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances (the Torah including the 10Cs written on stone tablets) that was against us (Romans 8:7 – Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be), which was contrary to us (Romans 7:12 - the law is holy, just and good - but ‘m carnal and sold under sin –Romans 7:14), and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross;

Ephesians 2:15,16 – Having abolished in His flesh, the enmity (Romans 8:7 – the desires of the flesh – Romans 7:17,20 – the sin in us), even the law of commandments contained in ordinances (the Torah incl. The 10 Cs); for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace (as there is no enmity comes by the law that was against us and contrary to us); and that He might reconcile both unto God (the Jews and the Gentiles, IOW the whole world) in one body by the cross; having slain the enmity thereby.

Remember! This sin comes alive and appeared by the law (Romans 7:7,9,13), as without the law sin was dead (Romans 7:8), and will not be imputed if there is no law (Romans 5:13). This sin is the enmity, the wall of partition that separates the Jews and the Gentiles from God.

As righteousness comes by faith and not by the law, that means no one will stand righteous before the law or no one can keep the law, so the law must go; finish! Otherwise no one will experience the grace of God, and Christ died in vain.

It is the greatest lie of Satan that said a man can keep the law of God. This teaching is to hold mankind under the law, so that man will always be prisoner of sin, and remain in a dead body. But Christ has made us free from the law and from sin (Galatians 5:1), by casting out the bond woman and her son which is the law given at Sinai and the slaves of sin the law has made (Galatians 4:24, 30).

In His love

James S.


Gary K

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #137 on: July 12, 2001, 09:59:00 AM »
James S.,

I quote from your post: "It is the greatest lie of Satan that said a man can keep the law of God."  

Do you mind showing me this from the Bible or the SOP?  I want to see this quoted chapter and verse.  It is completely new news to me.


M.A. Crawford

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #138 on: July 12, 2001, 11:54:00 AM »
"...If we truly believed that a soul is of infinite worth because the sacrifice of Jesus says it is so, would we sit back and complain that the preacher didn't give a very good sermon today? Or, if we really believed this, would we be out searching for souls for the kingdom because we love them and don't want to see them lost?"

Bro. Gary, I wholeheartedly agree with what you stated in your questions quoted above. If one were to look very carefully at our church's history, it can be clearly seen that the DRIVING FORCE behind the effort of the pioneers was the fulfillment of The Great Commission of Jesus written in Matthew 28:19, 20 and the proclaiming of the Three Angel's Message of Revelation 14. But what has happened, somewhere between then and now, is many have lost sight of the reason as to why this church was called into existence in the first place.

I believe that the overriding factor with every true follower of Christ in this church is, as Bro. Gary has pointed out, the BURNING DESIRE within to DO ALL THAT WE CAN to see souls saved in God's Kingdom. As I have stated before, the absence of this burning desire is, I believe, the reason why there are so many "Sad"ventists within many of our churches. Too many congregations are cold and lifeless because THEY DO NOT POSSESS THE FIRE of God's Holy Spirit to make it become alive and vibrant. If members of our churches were conscientiously seeking to find those who are outside of the Ark of safety to tell and show them of God's Goodness and His love for them, WE WOULDN'T HAVE TIME to worry about money problems and many of the things that we worry about. WE WOULD BE SO BUSY working for the salvation of the souls of men and women, boys and girls, until we wouldn't have time for any thing else.

Somehow many of God's people have been misled to believe that this is the work of pastors, elders, and others while they just "sit on the sidelines" and applaud the good job others are doing. They have not been TAUGHT AND TRAINED that EVERY CHRISTIAN can be a soul winner for Christ, IF we place ourselves in the proper spiritual posture to become one. However, to concur with Bro. Gary, I very firmly believe that nothing significant WILL EVER HAPPEN unto salvation until we FIRST get the love of God in our hearts for one another as we should.

Let me add that the fault does not lie totally with church leadership. It is up to the rank and file--local members with a vision--to ascertain their needs and speak up, AND SPEAK OUT, as to those needs and their resolution in the appropriate church setting.

M.A.

M.A.

Allan F

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #139 on: July 12, 2001, 12:00:00 PM »
Hello brother James,

I have not time now to comment all what you wrote in your last posting, but I will try to comment some of your thougts in it.

I agree with you that righteousness comes by faith and not by the law. Paul says in Gal 3:21 that "if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law". But Jesus is the only one who is able and has the power to give us life.

Paul writes in Eph 2:1-5 about going from death to life and what kind of life Jesus wants to give us and how we receive it:
"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins, wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience...
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by grace ye are saved" (please also read Tit 3:3-7, to see what he means "by grace").

Both that which Christ does for us and in us in the moment of justification, is by grace through faith. We usually do not boast of being forgiven. Likewise there are no reason to boast of "the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost".

You see, the greatest deception according to the SOP in the time of Christ was that a mere assent to truth constitutes righteousness. But in Rom 2 Paul goes against this theory. In this chapter he tells the romans about the danger of beleiving that because they are christians, they will not com into judgment and be judged by their works. In Rom 2:3 he says that "thinkest thou this, O man, that judges them that do such things (1:29-32), and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgement of God?"

"For there is no respect of persons with God" (v.11).

"God will render to every man according to his deeds, to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life, but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth..., tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the jew... (read: nominal christian) and also the gentile... For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto them selves: which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also being witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel" (v.6-16).

"Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery?" (v.21,22).

"For circumcision (read: to call one self a christian) verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision KEEP THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW (see Rom 8:4), shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?... He is a jew (read christian) which is one inwardly, and the circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit and not in the letter, whose praise is not of men, but of God.  :)

When you say that "righteousness comes by faith and not by the law," I say amen. But to say that "that means no one will stand righteous before the law or no one can keep the law," it is a lie according to the verses from romans 2 which I have quoted from.

"so the law must go; finish!"
No, brother. Sin must go.

"Otherwise no one will experience the grace of God, and Christ died in vain."

"This is life eternal, that they might KNOW thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.. I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I IN THEM (Jn 17:3,26).

"Abide in him: that when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming" (Jn 2:28).

Sincerely
Allan F