In The Blessed Hope
Avalee
The beginning of course, is responding to the wooing of the Holy Spirit, then seeking, opening the Door to Jesus. He will begin to sup with us. I love this picture. The Courtyard experience, sacrifice and cleansing precedes our walk on into the sanctuary apartments. This is Justification.
Can we stay out here and be saved???
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charlene
The altar:
Here we get forgiveness for our sins. Every christian believe that our sins must be forgiven in order to enter Heaven. We really need the cross. But do we have to go further?
The laver:
Cleansing of the heart, new birth. "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3. We see that we also need this experience in order to enter Heaven.
The Holy place:
That is sanctification. Do we also need this experience? "Follow after peace with all men,
and the sanctification without which no man shall see the Lord" Heb 12:14. We see that we
also need sanctification in order to get to Heaven.
The most Holy place:
Everyone who enter Heaven will have been into the investigative judgement. But only those
who claim (or once have claimed) to be a child of God, will come into this judgement. The others will not come into it. So, only those who have been into this investigative judgement and have been acquited, will come to Heaven.
But, let us begin with the beginning.
What made the sinner go into the courtyard? I believe it must have been quite humiliating for the sinner to go all the way through the camp and into the courtyard together with his lamb.
"The light shining from the cross (altar) reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to himself (John 12:32). If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour" (DA 175).
"God lays heavy burdens upon the conscience of the wrongdoer, and pierces the soul with
arrows of conviction. The ministering angels present to him the fearful judgments of God to deepen the sense of need, and prompt the cry, "What must I do to be saved?" (DA 104).
If the sinner is coming to the altar/cross for any other reason, he is coming in vain.
Psalms 34:18 : "The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit." Only these kind of people is God able to save. God will lead us to the cross. That is a wonderful promise. If we have not yet been there, let us spend much time with Jesus. He will soften the heart.
"The very first and the most important thing is to melt and subdue the soul by presenting our Lord Jesus Christ as the sinbearer, the sinpardoning Saviour, making the gospel as clear as possible" (Ev 264)
When the Israelite entered through the door into the courtyard, he was immediately covered by the white robe of the righteousness of christ, which was symbolized by the white fence of linen, that surrounded the sanctuary. This is a promise to us. When we have been convicted of sin, and want to go to the one we have wronged, if we then (for example) died before we had opportunity to confess and ask of forgiveness to the one we had wronged, God will judge us after what we would have done, if we had had more time. But God must have cleansed the heart in order to be saved (please correct me if I am wrong on this Richard, or anyone else).
When the sinner killed his lamb, he knew that one day a saviour would die in his place. And when the priest sprinkled the blood, I believe that another picture could come up in his mind: Just before exodus the Israelites was saved from the angel who killed all the firstborns in the families that had not sprinkled blood on their doorframe.
The only reason why people survived, was because they had made use of the blood.
This should also remind us, that only those who make use of the blood of the lamb, have any hope of salvation. For the firstborn, there was no other way out of Egypt than through the blood of the lamb.
So it is today. If we want to escape from the spiritually Egypt (Rev. 11:8) which is sin an ungodliness, we too must make use of the blood of Christ. If Jesus had not died for us, we would have no possibility to escape sin.
The cross was not all in the plan of salvation. But without it, we would never be made righteous, and have no hope of Heaven.
God knew this. But he took the chance and sent his only son. And he did it!
Let us praise him. :)
Allan F
When a person falls into deep water and can't swim,a life preserver is thrown to them.....safety is there,but,if they refuse to 'grab hold' of it,they will drown.
The cross is that life preserver,it is there,but,if we reject it.......how can we be saved?
We need to 'grab hold' of it,or,drown.
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He is LORD!
May He come soon.
Gerry
Allan F
Even when we sin, God loves us very much. But he hates sin, because it destroys us in one or another way. So when these two are together (sin and man), God wants to separate the sin from the man because he loves us:
"O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?" (Jer 4:14)
A wise woman in Israel once said: "..neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him" (2Sam 14:14). I believe that the experience at the altar and our next step into the sanctuary will support these words.
Between the altar and the tabernacle there was a LAVER filled with water. Here, the priests washed them selves before entering into the tabernacle. What does this symbolize?
Usually we wash our selves in order to be clean. So the laver has to symbolize some form for cleansing. Does the Bible say something about a cleansing of man, symbolized by water? Yes, it does:
"Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your
filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them" (Eze 36:25-27).
So as the water cleanses the outside, God, by the Holy Spirit cleanses the inside.
Let us also go to the NT. In Tit 3:3-7 Paul is telling Titus about his own past: "For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another." But all this changed. How? "But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying".
By the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Gost, God cleanses the heart from
sin. Can you see the parallell to the sanctuary?
Jesus too, described this cleansing of the heart and its necessity: "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God... Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (Jn 3:3.5).
And what did he say to Peter?: "If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me" (Jn 13:8).
So in the laver God cleanses us from sin. Davids prayer: "Create in me a clean heart" was answered in the "laver experience".
But, maybe you will doubt that your thoughts, feelings and attitude can change. If it is so, let Paul encourage you by reading 1Cor 6:9-11. Even if we have many bad habits God is able to create a new heart:
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived:
neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."
In these verses Paul says that it is hope even for drunkards, prostitutes and homosexuals. They have been washed. They have been made righteous. Not only declared righteous, but also made righteous by the creative power of the Holy Spirit.
If God is able to cleans us from such sins, should we not then be of good courage and
have faith in Gods word. But faith is needed in order for the cleansing to take place. In Acts 15:9 Peter says that God is "..purifying their hearts BY FAITH."
Let us go back to the sanctuary. The laver, which was placed in the courtyard was later
called the Sea. And maybe when the Israelites saw the laver, they were reminded of the
experience at (in) the Red sea. What happened there, was one of the greatest miracles God
did for the Israelites. God wanted to lead the Isarelites out of Egypt and into Canaan. In the Bible, Egypt symbolizes sin and ungodliness. Therefore we may say that God wants to deliver us from the spiritual Egypt. And how does He do that? As the Israelites were saved from the egyptians by walking through the Red Sea, God saves us from sin and the power of Satan when we are born of water and of the spirit, in the laver.
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life" (Rom 6:3.4).
Why was the laver placed out in the courtyard and not in the Holy place? Isn't it because
people are to be clean when entering the Holy place? In 2.Chr 23:19 we read that "he
(Jehoiada) set the porters at the gates of the house of the LORD, that none which was
unclean in any thing should enter in."
So, in order for us to enter the Holy place, we must have been at the altar (forgiveness) and at the laver (cleansing of the heart).
Heb 10,19-22: "Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water."
To summarize the courtyard-experience, I want to use this bible verse:
"IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS, HE IS FAITHFUL AND JUST TO FORGIVE US OUR SINS, AND TO CLEANS US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS" (1.Jn 1:9).
Allan F
"Ellen White and other pioneers of the church believed that the heavenly sanctuary was exactly what the Bible said it was - a very real place with three distinct structures : a courtyard, a holy place, and a most holy place............
The courtyard depicts repentence and confession of sin. The holy place adds to this Christ's ministry of sanctification, where God's people accept His imparted righteousness, with all the behavioral changes this implies. His Holy Place ministry is therefore a vital part of preparing His people for the judgement. In turn, the Most Holy Place reveals the judgement itself, in which the lives of those claiming salvation are compared with a process through which every believer, in every era, has to go. Leave one element out, and the whole thing falls apart."
amen and AMEN
to think the choice is all ours to confess [outer court], be refined and prepared[holy place], and judged [most holy place]. We have the choice. I often shudder at the choices I make when I realise I have thrown it back at God when He has given me SO many chances. Let's pray we make the right choice.
God Bless
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"WATCH THE LAMB"
[This message has been edited by Mr Jones (edited 05-21-2000).]
Say, that's pretty good. Thanks for posting it.
gcw
Absolutely brilliant reading. A must for any who have doubts about our wonderful message.
FORWARD ON OUR KNEES
[This message has been edited by Mr Jones (edited 05-22-2000).]
We have had so many good posts on the sanctuary and its various sections and apartments. I would like to approach my discussion on it from a slightly different viewpoint. In addition to what already has been said, I believe God gave us the earthly sanctuary to demonstrate His love for mankind. Everything about it pointed to Christ and His work of Atonement He was to perform in the Heavenly Sanctuary on our behalf as our High Priest. The earthly sanctuary was designed to ever keep before us the fact that "God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son" to die in our stead that we might have another chance at eternal life. What love! And what does this say to us today? What is the personal point in all of this?
All of us (and I am including myself) need to demonstrate more of the love of God in our own lives as we interact with others on a daily basis. I am firmly convinced this is the key to our receiving the Christlikeness that is so powerful where influencing others are concerned. I believe that many Seventh-day Adventists in our churches are "Sad"ventists because they do not have the love of Jesus in their hearts as they should. I say that because God has blessed many of us in these forums with spiritual wisdom and understanding, but some of us have not shared this with others. I believe God has given us what we spiritually possess in order that we may "let our light shine," before men and women, boys and girls, as we uplift Jesus before them.
We don't have to go across town or across the country. There are many in our local churches who need evangelizing, and I believe with all my heart that God has given to us what He has given us in order that we might help our brothers and sisters who are not as strong in the faith as they should be to "grow in grace," and become more like Jesus in their everyday living.
We effectively teach---not so much by sermons, doctrinal discussions, and debates---but, by example. This is how Jesus taught us. He came to this world and gave us an example as to how we should live. And because of that, "He that saith he abideth in him ought himself so to walk, even as he walked" (1 John 2:6).
M.A.
It is one of the most treasured teaching in our church and I feel sorry for those that do not understand it or make light of it. To think in our churches that there are some that have become members and never have heard of it.
I just wanted to pass on my favorite verse in the bible. I think it says alot about our God and it brings us to the sanctuary.
Psalm 27:4.
One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after: that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to enquire in His temple.
Every aspect of the temple and the sanctuary in it shows us the beauty of God's character and His love for us.
Liane
Many (me included!) who start reading through the Bible, stop when they come to Exo.25 and the history of the Sanctuary because this subject is all so boring. Or, maybe it isn't? Why have God let this subject have as much place in the Bible as the four gospels?
One thing with the Sanctuary which I appreciate very much, is the symbols. Unlike what we often find in our days christianity, we find no meaningless phrases in the sanctuary. Every item or symbol there, have a specific meaning. Everything reveal Gods plan , his purposes and his character.
There are many, so many things to learn from the sanctuary and its service, and the main message of it is of course the gospel. And I feel it is important to say that we should learn the basics before going into all the details, because I have seen people who have great knowledge in the sanctuary service, are coming up with a false gospel. It is really possible to study this subject for years and still miss the main thing. With "basics" I mean what the altar, laver, the main items in the Holy and the most holy place mean to us.
When Jesus was on this planet he again taught the people mainly in symbols. And the main theme in the parables was also this time the gospel. One reason why he used parables, I believe was because he not allways wanted to give his message "with teaspoons". He wanted people to think and reflect over his teaching and to draw conclusions. We too (of good purposes of course) may sometimes also want to "feed" the people with teaspoons in order for them not to miss any detail. I think, at least I have an important lesson to learn here. But of course he would explain if the people didn't understand.
May God bless our efforts in understanding and sharing the wonderful sanctuary message.
Allan F
I remember several years ago when I was reading about the sanctuary I was studying the most holy place. I guess it must have spilled over into my sleep time because when I awaken in the morning during that time when you awake, but stil asleep the image of the holy place from up above was visable to me.
The point that I became aware of was that when God looked down at the most holy place from (above) what was the first thing he would see? The ark, but on top of the ark he would see the angels and the mercy seat. It helped me to realize that angels are ever present in the most holy place in heaven as well as the earthly one as well. But the point that was brought home to me was the fact that God sees the mercy seat before he sees the law. The law is within the ark itself. There must be a point to this fact that it is inside the ark instead of outside. It must be before God even judges us by the law, He considers the mercy. Mercy without justice is not justice.
This gave me much peace when I saw this at a time in my life when I needed it most, that we have such a loving God that he looks at all aspects of the person with mercy before he passes judgment.
Does anyone have any other thoughts on this??
Because the Sanctuary is very simple. Yes it is complex as well, and there are so many many wonderful things to learn, but I have found that in all that is said and done it is still very simple.
The Sanctuary is the very center of Heaven where God dwells. Inside of it's walls are all the tools I need for salvation and safty for our eternal life. I can think of no safer place to go. It is not a physical place, but a place in my mind where God dwells in my life. I go there when I feel lost or unsafe. Within it's walls is everything I need to know about God. How fair He is, how just He is, and how caring He is.
Outside, is the world and sin and all the things that can destroy me. When I leave the Sanctuary of God, He has given me the tools and the peace to go out and face all there is to face in the world. I know that I can come back within it's walls anytime, anyplace and feel safe again because God is waiting for me there. You see I can take the Sanctuary with me wherever I go. It is not set in stone or physical in any form.
God is truly wonderful. He knew that we needed such a place. That is what makes the Seventh-day Adventist teachings so wonderful. What church really knows or understands those things. They all have a desorted view. He gave us the lost truths that the Jews once had, but even more, because in it we see all that Christ is and will be.
So now I know I shouldn't send someone something with 8 megs all at the same time.
;D noaj ;D
(that's me standing in the corner but still grinning)
M.A.
We have outstanding opportunities in our various churches to speak up and speak out and help those who are not quite as strong in the faith to grow spiritually. We are to always keep before them Jesus Christ and the Word of God as the only means of salvation.
Weakness results from LACK OF EXERCISE! We are to exercise our faith by LIVING OUT the example of Christ in our everyday living. Our people need to know that head knowledge is not enough. Knowing what is right and doing what is right are not one and the same. Also, lip service will avail us nothing (and we certainly have a lot of that among some Seventh-day Adventists). We demonstrate our love for God by ordering our lives after His Divine Likeness in every department of our lives.
We have a "missionary work" to do right within our own churches. Let us cause the God of Heaven to give us a smile of approval as He sees us helping, sharing, and caring as we interact with one another.
M.A.
Thank you for your thoughts about the sanctuary Richard. God has given us a wonderful revelation of his thoughts and care for us through the sanctuary service. It would be good if other denominations also would make use of it.
About the courtyard, I am not sure what is symbolized in the very moment I pass through the gate. If I (out in the camp) decide to go to the tabernacle, what happens in may life when I go through the gate? I know that the gate symbolizes Christ, but what is the difference in my life one step before entering, and my first step into the sanctuary? Is it the surrendering of the will? I would really like to get comments on this.
Allan F :)
We have missed you! We would be pleased to know how things are progressing in Norway. :) Maybe in the Social Hall you could share a little with us. :)
Richard
My first indepth study of the sanctuary begins this month as I have just come across a book called "The Sancturay Service" written by M.L Andreasen and published in 1937 and 1947 by the Review and Herald Publishing Assn. Anyone ever read this? I find it to be very good.
Sincerely
Dugald
Richard
Then decades later I discovered that the entire description of the Day of Atonement was in a single chapter! Leviticus 16. I realized that ANYBODY--even me-- can master one chapter.
So I took a pen and outlined exactly what happened on that day, in the exact order. I higly recommend the experience to every Adventist. The chapter is just convoluted enough that you can't seem to get the order straight without working it out on paper.
For instance, I found out that only one-third of the sanctuary had been cleansed when the High Priest came out of the Holiest for the last time. And that there was more atonement to be done AFTER the scape goat was released.
I'd love to see some discussion of these details.
WendyL, the moderator and I went through Leviticus 16 as well. After church this afternoon I will share with you some of the very things we learned. We came to the same conclusion that you did.
I agree it is a chapter that needs to be explored more deeply. Just that one chapter is a wealth of knowledge and truth.
Example to me, which floored me when I looked up all the main words from the concordance, that the word Atonement is the key word throughout the chapter, but when you look this word up, you find that sometimes it is applied to expiation and sometimes to purge. Two different meanings. There is even one place where it means to cover only.
It opened a whole new meaning of that chapter to me. I have come to know that the word, if studied much, can give you so many layers upon layers of knowledge and truth that most never come to know. We have only begun, what riches await us for all eternity.
Liane
We would like for you to share your study as long as it is in keeping with what we believe as a people. If there is something new or different, we would like to hear this, but please do not "teach" it as so often is the case with many who go contrary to the truth.
We will be jumping over quite a bit, but that is alright. Let me see if I can establish a bridge for you.
The earthly sanctuary represented the heavenly sanctuary and the ministry of our High Priest, Jesus Christ. Instructions were first given to Adam and Eve and their children to make sacrifice to learn of God's love and the plan of salvation. After a long period of bondage in Egypt, when God's people were not permitted to make sacrifice and the associated truths mostly forgotten, God instituted the ceremonial laws that required the building of the tabernacle and the daily and yearly services. This system of sacrifices was not a direct means of salvation, ("for it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins) but was the "teaching method" that God chose to impart the knowledge of the plan of salvation. In the sanctuary service was revealed the love of God towards sinful man, while he is yet a sinner. It is the revelation of this love that converts the sinner. The plan of salvation involved more than the redemption of sinful man. In the Hebrew sanctuary we find a true and accurate description of the work going on in heaven and earth to safely establish God's government for eternity.
The Hebrew sanctuary had two divisions, a daily and a yearly service. The daily service was performed at the altar of burnt offering in the court of the tablernacle and in the holy place. The yearly service took place in the Most Holy Place.
Before Brother Harry begins a description of the "yearly" service, let us make a brief reveiw of the "daily" service.
Richard
Every morning and evening a lamb of a year old was burned upon the altar, with its appropriate meat offering, thus symbolizing the daily consecration of the nation to Jehovah, and their constant dependence upon the atoning blood of Christ. God expressly directed that every offering presented for the service of the sanctuary should be "without blemish." Exodus 12:5. The priests were to examine all animals brought as a sacrifice, and were to reject every one in which a defect was discovered. Only an offering "without blemish" could be a symbol of His perfect purity who was to offer Himself as "a lamb without blemish and without spot." 1 Peter 1:19. The apostle Paul points to these sacrifices as an illustration of what the followers of Christ are to become. He says, "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." Romans 12:1. We are to give ourselves to the service of God, and we should seek to make the offering as nearly perfect as possible. God will not be pleased with anything less than the best we can offer. Those who love Him with all the heart, will desire to give Him the best service of the life, and they will be constantly seeking to bring every power of their being into harmony with the laws that will promote their ability to do His will."
In the offering of incense the priest was brought more directly into the presence of God than in any other act of the daily
ministration. As the inner veil of the sanctuary did no extend to the top of the building, the glory of God, which was manifested above the mercy seat, was partially visible from the first apartment.
When the priest offered incense before the Lord, he looked toward the ark; and as the cloud of incense arose, the divine glory
descended upon the mercy seat and filled the most holy place, and often so filled both apartments that the priest was obliged to retire to the door of the tabernacle. As in that typical service the priest looked by faith to the mercy seat which he could not
see, so the people of God are now to direct their prayers to Christ, their great High Priest, who, unseen by human vision, is pleading in their behalf in the sanctuary above."
The incense, ascending with the prayers of Israel, represents the merits and intercession of Christ, His perfect righteousness, which through faith is imputed to His people, and which can alone make the worship of sinful beings acceptable to God.
Before the veil of the most holy place was an altar of perpetual intercession, before the holy, an altar of continual atonement. By blood and by incense God was to be approached--symbols pointing to the great Mediator, through whom sinners may approach Jehovah, and through whom alone mercy and salvation can be granted to the repentant, believing soul."
PP
[This message has been edited by Richard Myers (edited 03-03-2001).]
The blood of Christ, while it was to release the repentant sinner from the condemnation of the law, was not to cancel the sin; it would stand on record in the sanctuary until the final atonement; so in the type the blood of the sin offering removed the sin from the penitent, but it rested in the sanctuary until the Day of Atonement.
In the great day of final award, the dead are to be "judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Revelation 20:12. Then by virtue of the atoning blood of Christ, the sins of all the truly penitent will be blotted from the books of heaven. Thus the sanctuary will be freed, or cleansed, from the record of sin. In the type, this great work of atonement, or blotting out of sins, was represented by the services of the Day of Atonement--the cleansing of the earthly sanctuary, which was accomplished by the removal, by virtue of the blood of the sin offering, of the sins by which it had been polluted.
As in the final atonement the sins of the truly penitent are to be blotted from the records of heaven, no more to be remembered or come into mind, so in the type they were borne away into the wilderness, forever separated from the congregation.
Since Satan is the originator of sin, the direct instigator of all the sins that caused the death of the Son of God, justice demands that Satan shall suffer the final punishment. Christ's work for the redemption of men and the purification of the universe from sin will be closed by the removal of sin from the heavenly sanctuary and the placing of these sins upon Satan, who will bear the final penalty. So in the typical service, the yearly round of ministration closed with the purification of the sanctuary, and the confessing of the sins on the head of the scapegoat.
Thus in the ministration of the tabernacle, and of the temple that afterward took its place, the people were taught each day the great truths relative to Christ's death and ministration, and once each year their minds were carried forward to the closing events of the great controversy between Christ and Satan, the final purification of the universe from sin and sinners.
One of the things that really jumped out at me can best be described by the following question:
"What was the significance of the pillars of the porch in the earthly sanctuary?"
I am going to leave it here for a short bit, to see what others come up with. The answer is directly related to the topic at hand. :)
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"...We believe that through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, we shall be saved..." (Acts 15:11).
Your brother in Christ
David T. Battler
What I do like to do is study scripture. Our church is far more interested in the yearly than the daily services, since that’s where we teach that we learn about what Christ is doing now. That’s why I think it’s so intriguing that there were so many activities on the Day of Atonement that we seem to have overlooked. For instance, from Lev 16, it appears that the service did NOT close with the scapegoat. The priest still had to make atonements with the two rams that had been selected in the morning.
I agree that what went on during the rest of the year was important, too, and I appreciate your description of a year ago. As you mentioned, the sacrifice of Lev 4 is only for sins of ignorance. I understand that that means violating some precept that individuals did not know about. Since most common people couldn’t read--and didn’t have Bibles to read anyway--that must have happened a lot. Do you know of any provision for sacrifice for doing things they did know were wrong, except on the Day of Atonement?
Thanks for the feedback. It’s interesting that the Day of Atonement could have meant the Day of Covering. :)
Apparently the Day dealt with ALL sins and sinfulness:
“And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in ALL THEIR SINS, and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their UNCLEANNESS. “ Dt 16:16
Does anybody know why our pioneers decided that it was only repented/confessed sins that were atoned/covered?
Harry
This passage deals with *all* of the sins of the children of Israel. It says that since the sanctuary was “in their midst of their uncleanness”, every sin anyone committed contaminated it, and that would include deliberate, unconfessed sins.
So what I want to see is whether our pioneers knew of a passage that contradicts this one by saying that only repented sins contaminated the sanctuary , and that only repented sins were removed/atoned/covered.
Does that make sense?
"Our church is far more interested in the yearly than the daily services, since that’s where we teach that we learn about what Christ is doing now."
Hello Brother Elliot
Are you sure that as a church, we are indeed, more interested in the yearly, than in the daily? :)
In light of the following passage from Desire Of Ages; I would question that:
" In every part it was a symbol of Him; and it had been full of vitality and spiritual beauty. “ (pg.29). Ellen White was speaking of the ritual services, and thus implying the earthly sanctuary, in all it’s parts, were in some way, a symbol of Christ. (see also Ps.77:13).
For eg., in one of my recent, above posts, I asked what was important about the pillars of the porch, in the heavenly sanctuary? These pillars are generally discounted as not having much significance...I mean really; how often do we see them mentioned in a study on the sanctuary?
Part of the answer can be found in 1 Kings 7:
“22 And upon the top of the pillars was lily work: so was the work of the pillars
finished.”
What is so important about the pillars of the porch, in the earthly sanctuary?
I will give a little bit of time before completely answering, to see what others may notice about my question. I can say that as a church, we must be equally interested in ALL parts of the sanctuary services. Every part is just as important as the next, and is a unified whole. What do you think?
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"...We believe that through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, we shall be saved..." (Acts 15:11).
Your brother in Christ
David T. Battler
I believe that our church quite properly concentrates on the activities on the Day of Atonement in our response to the many statements like this one:
We can learn much, and should be constantly searching the Scriptures to see if these things are so. God's people are now to have their eyes fixed on the heavenly sanctuary, where the final ministration of our great High Priest in the work of the judgment is going forward,--where He is interceding for His people.-- Review and Herald, Nov. 27, 1883.
Ironically, however, I have concluded that our concentration doesn’t mean we really study what the Bible says about the atonement at all. Where else can we find a detailed scriptural description of Jesus’ interceding outside of Deuteronomy 16 and 23? Our pioneers seem to have arbitrarily selected a minority of the High Priest’s activities on the Day of Atonement and left the rest for to us dig out.
Our claim to the world is that the Day of Atonement proves that Jesus is currently judging the lives of professing Christians. But we can’t convince any scripturally knowlegeable people if we aren’t intimately familiar with what the earthly priest did to typify what Jesus does.
As to the porch pillars, I’ll bite. :) What does the Bible say their significance is?
--Harry
Thankyou for your response & questions above. I'm just letting you know that I have seen your post, and will reply as soon as I have a little time...I won't keep you waiting too long... :)
Part of the answer can be found in 1 Kings 7:
“22 And upon the top of the pillars was lily work: so was the work of the pillars
finished.”
What is so important about the pillars of the porch, in the earthly sanctuary?
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"...We believe that through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, we shall be saved..." (Acts 15:11).
Your brother in Christ
David T. Battler
[This message has been edited by DavidTBattler (edited 03-11-2001).]
Song of Solomon says (2:1) I AM the rose of Sharon and the lily of the valleys; and Hosea 14:5 says I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon.
My first thoughts reading your posts about the pillars, with the lilys being ON them, was that a lily represents Christ, and the pillars then would be a foundational thing that holds up the teaching and ministry of HIM. Which, then in my thinking, really relates VERY well to the whole sanctuary message, and emphasises how vital and central and foundational it is for our understanding the gospel message.
Okay, please don't laugh at my simple thoughts here, and PLEASE get on with the discussion!! I'm studying and learning and anxious to hear more!!
Sherri
Whatever David gives us, your statement above was just beautiful. What insight and understanding of the word of God.
I have been blessed.
Liane
Richard
Don't ever think to be embarassed about your posting. Some of the most beautiful posts, as yours, come from God as He gives us/you insight that those who are more jaded may never have seen without you. I was blessed as well.
WendyF
So, the sanctuary, to me, is all Jesus...In some way; He is in every part of the sanctuary, and it's services. It is totally amazing! But, this Word valley does have some interesting allusions for today's Christian as well, and that is what excites me so much about our church's sanctuary teachings. They have relevance, and meaning for today's Christians, that is very practical.
I am preparing a short piece to put in the testimony thread about this.
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"...We believe that through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, we shall be saved..." (Acts 15:11).
Your brother in Christ
David T. Battler
Richard
I recently heard from one preacher that Psalm 77 was the cry of Jesus on the cross where He made a reference to the Sanctuary and His prior role in heaven.
Anyone cares to read Psalm 77 and comment accordingly?
Sincerely
Dugald
In the "daily service" was there a provision for sins that one knew were sins? This is to say; if I get angry with my wife, will Jesus forgive my sin since I know it is a sin? Yes He will. How was this taught in the daily service?
Richard
Sanctification, is in essence, justification, experienced day by day, moment by moment.
According to Ex.30:7-10, an ordinary priest would offer incense here on a DAILY BASIS.
I don’t know about you other gentlemen @ TRO, but my wife and I can’t get along on just the yearly part of the sanctuary service...I yell at her more than once a year! Is there any one of us who only does it once a year? :)
Everything in the daily service, indicated our constant need, and Christ’s 24 hour availability.
“Tamid,” or “daily,” is used in connection with the various aspects of the Tabernacle, and Temple sevices, approximately 50 times...
Some examples:
a) the daily, morning and evening burnt
offering – Ex.29:38, 42
b) the candlestick, or lamp – Ex.27:20
c) the shew bread – Ex.25:30
d) the incense – Ex.30:8
e) the fire upon the altar – Lev.6:13
f) the fire and the cloud that hung over
the sanctuary – Num.9:16
g) the musical service – 1 Chron.16:6, 37
h) etc., etc.
In every instance, “tamid” or “daily” refers to aspects of the Tabernacle or Temple sevice that were used DAILY. That’s why the lamps were never extinguished all at once, the fire on the altar of burnt offerings was never allowed to go out, the bread of the Presence was ALWAYS on the table, a lamp was offered every morning and every evening, and the incense was burned upon the altar of incense simultaneously.
Unwitting Sins:
Leaders – Lev.4:22-26
Common People – Lev.4:27-35
Intentional Sins:
Lev.5:1-5, 6:1-7
The daily service (and the yearly), were/are intended to visibly emphasize the exciting Truth that God is present among His people, in a unique and intimate way; always wanting to be there for us when we go astray, intentionally, or unintentionally.
Remember, there is only ONE unpardonable sin. :)
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"...We believe that through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, we shall be saved..." (Acts 15:11).
Your brother in Christ
David T. Battler
[This message has been edited by DavidTBattler (edited 03-28-2001).]
I had to read this for myself and found it starting in Exodus, Chapter 28, with verse 15. There from that point to verse 29 is a discription of this breastplate.
But what touched me was verse 30. "And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim, and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before the LORD: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the LORD continually."
To think that Jesus at the cross carried our judgment upon his heart. And as our High Priest he carries our judgment upon His heart. I am trying to grab for words, but the feeling is deep. This is personal and upfront. This is as close to the center as one can get.
This judgment of all rest upon the heart of Jesus. We are not talking about 59 billion people that are here today, but far beyond that number since the fall of our first parents. That was all put upon Him, and he carries it upon His heart.
It is so simple to just think of our own little "sins" being the cause of his blood shed at the cross, but when we think of the big picture, it almost becomes overwhelming. It helps me to realize that I should do all that I can to make His joy complete. To do all that I can to carry my own cross that He has given me. For one that has given so much, what little that I can do, let me do it with all that I have. Because he carries my judgment upon His heart.
Liane
Thank you for considering my question so carefully. Ellen White said something to the effect that we should let the pioneers teach us how they came to the conclusions that they did. I haven’t had the opportunity to gather all the records possible recounting their discussions and reasoning. We are told that her visions did not run ahead of their Bible study, so all this indicates to me that there must be some detailed original studies in existance somewhere. I’m looking for someone who has gone farther down the path she indicated than I have.
The pioneers decided that the wilderness sanctuary service teaches us the details of Christ’s priestly ministry on our behalf. If the sanctuary service can teach us these details, they can teach non-Adventists who do not accept the authority of Ellen White, as well. My experience has been that we have not been particulary persuasive in this regard--convincing Bible-believing Christians of our sanctuary concepts from the Bible alone.
The way to solve this problem should be to look at the questions through their eyes . Make sense?
I’m not looking for DEFENSES of our positions so much as the original basis for their their having been adopted in the first place.
So, working forward from the Bible, I start with relevant passages such as,
“And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him ALL the iniquities of the children of Israel, and ALL of their transgressions in ALL their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness.”
Lev 16:21 (My capitals)
Please bear with me here. Do you believe that this passage says that only PART of their sins and iniquities are atoned for here? What am I missing?
I’m not saying that God treats our unrepented sins the same as our repented sins. What I’m saying is that apparently we can’t use the Day of Atonement ritual to show it. So I wonder how--or if--our pioneers concluded that we can. Are these unreasonable questions, in your opinion?
--Harry
The word atonement is not in that text. It says Aaron was CONFESSING ALL their sins. The text supports the doctrine that only confessed sins are transfered to the sanctuary(or in this case to the scape goat).
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WendyL ~ Maranatha!:)
Jesus blood covers every sin, repented of or not, the High Priest confessed all the sins and placed them on the scapegoat. The High Priest has no way of knowing which had been repented of, all he could do was place ALL the sins on the scapegoat. It is only if that person lived to the next atonement is it know if his sins had been repented of. As it will be on the day of judgment, we will not know who is saved or who is lost. Only the Father knows.
Liane
My point was that in Lev 16: 21 the word “all” is repeated three times. All their iniquities. All their transgressions. All their sins. How can all of them leave out any of them?
The next verse says it again. “And the goat shall bear upon him ALL the iniquities of the children of Israel...” This is consistent with verse16 which says Aaron shall make an atonement for the tabernacle because of “their transgressions in ALL their sins”.
If we can find four statements that SOME of their sins were NOT placed on the scapegoat, it would be a wash. But we haven’t found even one, have we?
Wendy, you make a good point that these sins were indeed confessed--by the High Priest. But as you pointed out, it says he confessed ALL of them. I probably should have said simply “repented” instead of “confessed/repented”.
Liane, that’s an interesting suggestion of a possible reason that the High Priest was instructed to confess all of the sins. I’m wondering, do you know of any text that says that anyone who was unrepentant would die? The capital punishment mentioned was for failing to fast (“afflict your souls”) or keep the ceremonial sabbath. But that dealt with obvious outward actions, because as you pointed out, the enforcers had no way to know what was in the people’s hearts.
Richard, you ask why I believe that the transfer of the sins of Israel to Satan is an atonement. I think you may have overlooked verse 10 because it’s separated from the rest of the instruction regarding the scapegoat:
“But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an ATONEMENT with him...” Lev 16:10
I think this chapter is worth the extra effort required for precision. I avoided saying “Satan” because I don’t find that name in the chapter.
And in response to your last question, I don’t find any mention in the chapter of the ten commandments or character judgment. I try to be certain of no more that the scripture actually says. :)
--Harry
I have studied Leviticus 16 many times and it is at a time such as this, that I am given the opportunity to see it with new eyes.
Throughout Leviticus 16, the use of atonement or expediation is used in the first half of Leviticus from verse 6 through verse 11.
Then from verse 16 through 18, the word atonement changes to mean purge. In connection blood is the form of this atonement.
When the word atonement (expediation) is used in verse 10, there is no blood attached to the process. The key words "with it" or "with him." The application of this word atonement as I understand it in this verse, the use of the word atonement, means to cover the scapegoat with the sins of the people.
The two ways the word atonement is used in this chapter is first: Expediation means to amend or to cover. In the use of purge, the meaning is to cleanse.
In verse 1 through verse 10, is what you would call a pre-summary of what is going to happen, an explanation. From verse 11 through verse 20, is the actual performance of the atonement, the blood is applied, this is when the word atonement changes from expediation to purge. Then from verse 21 is the process of the scapegoat.
My understanding of the scapegoat as Satan comes from my relationship with my mother who was Jewish. The other name of scapegoat is Azazel, goat removal has always been associated with Satan from ancient times in Jewish tradition and teachings. I will have to study this further from the prospective of the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy.
Again I have to say my understanding comes from what I learned from Judaism. In Levitcus 23, verse 29: "For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people." The word cut meaning in Hebrew to be destroyed or perish when used here. This has been understood that the judgment of every man for the year to come is finally decided.
Liane
Now that you mention it, I do recall a tradition that one’s fortunes during the following year depends on the degree of repentance during the period betwee their secular new year’s day and the Day of Atonement. Or something like that. That may have influenced our own tradition of seeing judgment on this day. A Jewish friend of mine told me how as a kid, he would listen to his stomach growl as the sun slowly inched its way toward sundown on the Day of Atonement.
Hmmm. Atonement meaning to cover WITH sins is a new slant. But then, Jesus covered Himself with our sins. And Lev 16:5 says that both goats are for a sin offering. So the bodies of the two dead sin offerings and the live sin offering were all taken outside the encampment. “Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.” (Heb 13:13) I have difficulty concluding that in the face of all these parallels, that two of them represent Jesus and the other represents Satan. But since the Bible doesn’t quite say so explicitly, I’ll try to stay open on the question.
I have to admit that I’m uncomfortable with changing the meaning of a word in mid-chapter, but your application makes sense. The last act of atonement on the Day of Atonement is the burning of the bullock and the ram selected in the first act of the day . Would you see these final sacrifices as expediation or as purging?
Richard--
I do my studying alone. It’s less fun, but more productive. Here are a couple of my favorite EGW statements on the subject.
“There is no excuse for ayone in taking the position that all our expositions of Scripture are withour an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can affortd to be fair. No doctrine will lose anything by close investigation.” R&H December 20, 1892
Unfortunately, it’s not easy to find a group interested in doing “close investigation”. :)
And:
“How shall we search the Scriptures? Shall we drive our stakes of doctrine one after another, and then try to make all Scripture meet our established opinions? Or shall we take our ideas and views to the Scripturess, and measure our theories on every side by the Scriptures of truth? ...We have many lessons to learn, and MANY, MANY to unlearn.” (Counsels to Writers and Editors, p38. Emphasis mine.)
--Harry
I am dismayed by the fact that I am going away for a few days for a wedding. My favorite study has always been Leviticus 16.
Neither. There is no atonement from verse 25 to 28, which the final act of taking out the fat, the sin offerings that had been used as an atonement in the holy place, shall be carried without the camp and burned as well. The person who took the scapegoat and the person who burned the fat and remaining flesh used as the atonement had to wash their clothes. This is the final act of purification of the camp.
From verse 29 to the end of this chapter is a summation and extra detail information of what the day of atonement was about.
I found it interesting that you made this statement: "Jesus covered Himself with our sins." I have understood that He covered our sins with the shedding of his blood for our sins, that He coveres our sins with His righteousness, and that he took upon himself our sins and was a sin bearer, but never "covered Himself with our sins." Could you explain a little more what you mean and where that comes from? Your probably saying the same thing, it just sounds strange to me.
I am also interested in your Jewish friend. What was the growling of his stomach about?. I know that the adults were to fast for the Day of Atonement, but not the children.
As I said, I am sorry that I will not be able to respond or partake of this for a few days. But it will be the first place I will come to when I get back. I will try to get on before I leave in the morning to see if you have written, but if not, then I will when I get back.
Liane
I'm a little confused. You believe that Satan will burn for the sins of everyone even those who have not confessed?
It's my understanding that causing someone else to sin is a sin in it's own right and you will have that in your record. But what will happen to Satan goes even further. If Satan tempts me and I sin but then confess that sin and am forgiven and saved, that sin will be placed on Satan's record (like the scapegoat) as if he had committed that sin himself. That's part of the reason why Satan burns the longest and is the last to perish, he not only has 6000+ years of sins on his record but he spends time burning for the forgiven sins of everyone who is saved.
quote
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"The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has decieved. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches." The Great Controversy pg 673
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The wicked die for their own sins, they are not transferred to Satan or Christ. That was what the Sanctuary service illustrated. The High Priest had to confess ALL the sins of Israel (and himself) on the lamb and on the scapegoat. He then wore a rope around his ankle because if he entered the most Holy Place with unconfessed sin, he would be struck dead and they could then use the rope to pull him out. Also when the priest confessed the sins of Israel, he did not confess the sins of say, the Ammonites or the Hittites and so those people's sins where not transfered symbolically to the scapegoat or the lamb.
I feel like I need to explain how I see what happened with Christ too in order to avoid anyone misunderstanding me. When Christ died he felt and died for every sin that had been committed and every sin that was yet to be committed. He had to or His sacrifice wouldn't have been complete. If you commit a sin, though, it is not automatically charged to His account. If it were everyone would be saved because they would have no sins on their account. If you confess and repent a sin, it is then charged to Christ (as the lamb) and Satan (as the scapegoat). If you are lost then that sin is charged to your account and you will pay for it.
I know that freaks out a lot of people because many start to worry that they might forget a sin and therefore be lost but I would say to anyone who feels that way, "just trust God". If I do something that I feel is a sin I usually feel sorry immediately and say so to God. At any time you can ask God to help you remember a sin you might need to repent of and then have faith that He will help you to do so. You can also, like David ask for forgiveness for sins that you don't even know are sins ("Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults." Psalms 19:12).
Anyway, I think I kind of got carried away. I just meant to explain what I understood about the transfer of sins and Satan and look where I ended up.
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WendyL ~ Maranatha! :)
[This message has been edited by Wendy (edited 04-03-2001).]
You must be on at the same time as I am, I just noticed your last post after I posted. You're lucky, I wish I got to go to weddings, I'm always the one who has to go to funerals. My sister gets all the weddings. :)
Still up before my trip. Wanted to post this before I left. Early Writings, page 295:
"Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; AND HE ALSO MUST SUFFER FOR THE RUIN OF SOULS WHICH HE HAD CAUSED."
Liane
quote
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"Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; AND HE ALSO MUST SUFFER FOR THE RUIN OF SOULS WHICH HE HAD CAUSED."
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I totally agree. My understanding is that anytime we do something that leads another person into sin that is in itself a sin and unless we repent of that sin it will remain on our record and if we are lost we will pay for that sin. Satan is ultimately responsible for leading everyone into sin so he will suffer for those sins.
There is something more going on in the Sanctuary service when the priest confessed the sins of Israel on the head of the scapegoat (which represents satan) then what I just talked about. In the service all the confessed and forgiven sins of those who are saved (read Israel) are transferred to the scapegoat(satan). I'm having trouble trying to explain this clearly so I'll use an imaginary example. I'll make up some guy and call him John. Let's say Satan temps John to steal a car and John does it, at this point Satan has a sin on his record of tempting John to steal the car and John has the sin of stealing the car on his record. If John's probation were to close at this time Satan would pay for having tempted John to steal the car and John would pay for stealing the car. That's how Satan "MUST SUFFER FOR THE RUIN OF SOULS WHICH HE HAD CAUSED".
What's going on in the Sanctuary service is something different. Let's now say that John is converted and repents for stealing the car and that sin is forgiven him and John is in a saved condition when his probation closes. Now John goes to heaven, Satan still burns for having tempted John to steal the car and now Satan also burns for John's sin of stealing the car as if he were the one who stole the car.
That is what I learn from the Sanctuary service. When the sinner confessed his sin on the head of the lamb (representing Jesus) his sin was transferred (symbolically) to the lamb. Jesus suffered and died for each of our sins, however if we refuse to accept Him and His sacrifice for us we must pay for our own sins. If we are saved, then our sins are laid on Christ's record (for which He has already paid the price) and they are laid on Satan (who has yet to pay the price). This was symbolized in the Santuary- Day of Atonement service by the priest confessing all the sins of Israel (which represent the saved) on the animal that represented Christ and the animal that represented Satan (the scapegoat) thus transferring those sins symbolically to those animals. Christ suffered for everyone's sin and Satan will suffer for the confessed and forgiven sins of the saved. At the same time Satan will also suffer for the sin of tempting others to sin. That's what I've learned in my studies anyway.
I know you won't be around for a couple of days so I'll look foreward to your reply later. :)
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WendyL ~ Maranatha! :)
[This message has been edited by Wendy (edited 04-04-2001).]
I enthusiastically endorse your concern for getting the horse and cart right-way-round. :)
For me, that means always starting with scripture and only being certain of those things the passage conclusively establishes. In that spirit, I have attempted to extract from Leviticus 16 a comprehensive list of the actions taken by the High Priest on the Day of Atonement. I hate being wordy, but Aaron was a busy guy that day!
1) He brings a bullock for a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering to the sanctuary.
2) He bathes in water.
3) He dons special linen vestments worn only on that day.
4) He takes from the congregation two young goats for a sin offering and one ram for a burnt offering.
5) He presents the goats befort the Lord and casts lots to choose one for the Lord and one for Azazel.
6) He kills the bullock.
7) He takes the smoking censer into the Most Holy Place and returns to the courtyard.
8) He takes some bullock blood into the Most Holy Place, sprinkles it 7 times before the mercy seat and retuns to the courtyard.
9) He kills the Lord’s goat.
10) He takes some goat blood into the Most Holy Place, sprinkles it 7 times before the mercy seat and retuns to the courtyard.
11) He takes some bullock blood into the Holy Place, sprinkles it 7 times and retuns to the courtyard.
12) He takes some goat blood into the Holy Place, sprinkles it 7 times and retuns to the courtyard.
13) He puts bullock blood and goats blood on the horns of the altar in the courtyard.
14) He sprinkles bullock blood 7 times on the altar.
15) He sprinkles goat blood 7 times on the altar.
16) He confesses all the sins and uncleanness of the congregation upon the head of the scapegoat and sends it into the wilderness, evidtntly to succomb to starvation or predators.
17) He returns to the Holy Place to remove his special vestments, bathe and put on his everyday High Priestly outfit.
18) He slaughters the 2 rams for burnt offerings.
19) He burns the fat of the sin offering upon the altar.
Phew! At last to your question about what happens when Jesus comes out of the heavenly Most Holy Place.
After the typical High Priest came out of the Most Holy Place for the third and last time, he still had three animals still living and actions 11-19 to perform, so it’s not obvious to me that an end to sinning is depicted at this juncture. What do you think?
--Harry
I’m disappointed too, but then what’s a few days? I agree that there is no mentione of atonement in verses 25-28. I guess I should have been a little more explicit in my question about the final atonement for the day. I meant verse 24, (action 18 in the list I prepared above).
“And he shall...offer his burnt offering, and the burnt offering of the people, and *make an atonement* for himself, and for the people.”
So AFTER the sanctuary is cleansed, and AFTER the scapegoat is released, the High Priest made yet another atonement for himself and for the people. And this involved killing two more animals!
You are correct, of course, in pointing out that the Bible never uses the word “cover” in describing Jesus and our sins. At least, that I know of. I was simply noticing that the scapegoat being “covered” by sins that weren’t its own seems analogous to Jesus taking upon Himself sins that weren’t His own. I was just thinking out loud. That always gets me into trouble. :)
--Harry
Surprise, guess what, I am on. We had a lot of problems getting onto this computer I am using, long story, but I am on for today only.
There were only three animals killed for the offerings that day. One bullock, one ram and one goat. The other goat kept alive and sent off to die.
At the end after the High Priest washed himself, he did the burnt offering, this was one of the animal listed above, which is verse 24. There had not been any burnt offering up to this point. The ram was only for the burnt offering. There is no indication that any more animals were killed. Then the fat was burned at the alter.
Whatever remains were left of these two animals, the bullock and the goat were sent out of the camp and burned completely.
Hope this helps. I will try to get back on later today, but have to get off to help them get there computer back to where it was before.
Liane
Thanks for the feedback. If I got it right the first time, I’d be shocked. :)
Hmmm, are you saying that the rams were not a part of the Day of Atonement service? Their presentation at the Sanctuary is certainly integrated into the day’s rituals (acts 1 and 4 in my list). And their sacrifice was expressly to “make an atonement for himself, and for the people”. This is an echo of statements throughout the day’s instructions.
As I recall, the continual/daily/tamid/evening-and morning burnt offerings were lambs, and the instruction was that they were to be offered every day, in addition to whatever else was happening. So the rams would not be for that offering. Right?
And help me out with only one ram sacrificed. Verse 3 says Aaron brings a ram for a burnt offering, and verse 5 say he takes another ram for a burnt offering from the congregation. Then verse 24 says “offer his burnt offering, and the burnt offering of the people” to make atonement for the two parties. That makes four slaughtered animals, doesn’t it? Are you basing your observations on later Judaic tradition?
--Harry
Richard
Still here. We are leaving later than we had planned on, so I got a chance.
My understanding, but I will most certainly study it again when I get back. Verse 1 thru 10 is an outline of what is going to happen from 11 and on. They are still speaking about the one ram. It is still the ram that was used as verse 24 for the burnt offering. But I will check further.
You did a great outline and when I get back I am going to print this for further study. Perhaps if you are inclined you might want to put the verse number next to each statement and that would give all of us a sense of the chapter.
Today will be very busy and I may not get back on. But thank you for working with me on this as Lev 16 has been my favorite study and I am learning as well.
Also in closing, the rams are used in the daily which also represent Christ as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. There is no daily done on the day of atonement.
Must close now as we are going to town to get more things before we leave. Take care and talk later.
Liane
I think the way to go is to start with the bedrock of the Bible description of the High Priest’s tasks on the Day of Atonement, and work up from there. If judgment and the ten commandments are plainly there, it will be worth our patience. Do you see any errors in my list of these tasks?
I could have missed some of the actions he performed, or gotten them out of order. I had to make my own list because I have never found a complete list in any source. I consider omissions to be a form of error.
If there are any lurkers out there, please lend a hand. :)
--Harry
I have been meaning for some time to collect all of EGW’s statements on the sanctuary and arrange them by subcategory . I only recently bought the CD for that purpose. You have given me a headstart.
One line that particularly appeals to me is, “We have searched the Scriptures; we have built solidly...”
I would like to emulate thier effort. I can either do what they did and see what the scripture says precisely, or do what they refused to do and merely assent to the conclusions of others. There is no risk in the former, only the reward of the Bereans.
If the Day of Atonement teaches us what Jesus will do on the antitypical Day of Atonement, then I want to know precisely what it says. Without speculation. (Speculation’s okay, but I like to recognize it as a separate category from the specific “thus sayeth the Lord”).
That’s why I painstakenly extracted the outline of what the earthly High Priest did on the Day of Atonement. To summarize even further:
A) He went twice into the Most Holy Place to sprinkle the blood of two sin offerings. Lev16:14,15
B) He went twice into the Holy Place to sprinkle the blood of the same two sin offerings. vs 16b
C) He went twice to the altar in the courtyard to sprinkle the blood of the same two sin offerings.vss 18,19
D) He confessed all the sins of the people on the head of another sin offering and sent it without the camp to perish.vss 21,22
E) He sacrificed two more animals as additional atonements and burned their carcases in the courtyard . vs 24
All of these actions are called making atonement.
Regardless of what we believe about Jesus’ present ministry from OTHER scriptures, the description of the Day of Atonement does not seem to describe anything being done in the Most Holy Place that is substantially different from his continuing duties on that day.
Perhaps I’m missing something. Do you see any statement in THIS description of the Day of Atonement that clearly ESTABLISHES that the High Priest was performing a judgment in the Most Holy Place, or that his ministry in the other two parts of the sanctuary was less important? Or do we look elsewhere? (Nothing wrong with that. The Bible is a big book.)
--Harry
I got my information from Numbers 28.
“This is the offering made by fire which ye shall offer unto the Lord; two lambs of the first year without spot day by day, for a coninual burnt offering.” Vs 3
Verses 10, 15, and 24 indicate that other offerings--even burnt offerings--are to be “beside the continual burnt offering”.
--Harry
When a sinner brought his lamb into the courtyard and killed it, what happened to the sins that were confessed upon the head of the lamb?
Richard
I guess we agree that taken in isolation, the Day of Atonement establishes nothing about Jesus’ ministry. Although I suspect you wouldn’t put it quite that way. :)
As I’ve said before, I like to start any question about the Bible with the pertinent passage.
Since you have mentioned Leviticus 4 before, I presume you mean the sacrifice of the lambs and goats for sins of ignorance described in verses 27-35?
I don’t see that it says that anything happens to the sins, per se. However, it does say that the blood of the sacrificed animals was applied to the altar in the courtyard. Is this what you mean?
--Harry
I appreciate your persistence re the daily. I am studying the rest of Levitcus at last! :)
I’ve completed the first 5 chapters so far. Of course, I have read it before, but never REALLY studied it. My method is to underline (in one of my KJVs) every type of sacrifice, the reason, where the blood and body parts are disposed of, and whether it’s a sin offering or burnt offering, etc. Oh yes, and whether it’s called an atonement. It’s hard work, but it’s fun.
I highly recommend this method to everyone who is serious about the Hebrew sanctuary. The underlined portions of my Bible jump right out at me. In the future, when my 68 year old grey matter forgets, I’ll be able to refresh it easily.
I’m not sure why you keep asking me what I believe. I’m determined to believe whatever the
Bible clearly says, just like you. That’s why I keep rephrasing your questions about what I believe into questions about what I have found the Bible to say.
You quoted Lev 4:7 and asked why this was necessary. With the help of my new underlines, I’m able to let scripture explain this scripture. A few verses before, it explains:
“If the priest that is anointed so SIN according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his SIN, whch he hath SINNED, ...a SIN offering.” (Lev 4:3)
And you asked why was it necessary to make an atonement for the sanctuary?
“And he shall make an atonement for the holy place because of the UNCLEANNESS of the children of Israel, and because of their TRANSGRESSIONS in ALL THEIR SINS: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that REMAINETH AMONG THEM in the MIDST OF THEIR UNCLEANNESS.” (Lev 16:16)
“And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him ALL THE INIQUITIES of the children of Israel, and ALL THEIR TRANSGRESSION in ALL THEIR SINS..” (Lev 16:21a)
I get the feeling that you have some other texts in mind, perhaps in the chapters I haven’t studied yet. Just point the way.
--Harry
We just got back from Virginia City and I will be home tomorrow morning and I will be able to write more.
There is only two places where the Day of Atonement is mentioned in the whole Bible for literal Israel and they both are in Leviticus, Chapters 16 and 23.
Numbers 28 is regarding three yearly events which apply to the daily; the sabbath and monthly offerings; as well as the offerings of the appointed feasts. This chapter does not apply to the Day of atonement.
As much as I love discussing the Day of Atonement, perhaps Richard is correct, we need to start with the daily and then go onto the day of atonement. I guess I had assumed you had a foundation regarding the the daily already in your experience. Or you do, but need to know more. The daily has much to teach about the application of the blood as pertain to justification and the complete understanding of Christ work in both places.
The old testament gives us the foundation of this work that Christ now does for us today in the Most Holy place.
Could you give me a discription of the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place and what is in each room and what is in the courtyard as well. I would like to know what your understanding is of the temple.
I will be back tomorrow and write more.
Liane
Welcome back--again.
I have cheerfully conceded on the point of studying the daily first. To me the ministry of the sanctuary is more interesting than the furniture, however if you have a particular passage regarding the furnishings that you would like to discuss, I'd enjoy that too.
--Harry
My outline of Leviticus 16 was not intended as an interpretation, but an attempt to get into the chapter. I was hoping for an in-depth study of the scripture with corrections to any misreading I disclosed. I appreciate Liane’s efforts to do so.
You’ve asked me a number of questions and I have endeavored to find the Bible’s answers. If you think I identified the wrong texts, I would be grateful to hear your reasons.
But of course you don’t have to. This is your forum and your thread. You’re the boss. I’m just an over-enthusiastic guest. :)
You have mentioned how important it is to study the daily before the annual. Is there any particular passage of scripture that describes the daily that you are interested in studying together?
--Harry
I am home. It was quite an experience to say the least. One thing I am grateful for in California is that anyplace you eat, there is no smoking.
I almost died in Nevada. Earthquake and all I was glad to be back on California soil. We got snow the whole time we were in Nevada and I did like that. I can get to snow from where I live, it is about half hour drive. I have gotten spoiled in Southern California.
As for your enthusiasm, don't every let go of it. These are exciting things to learn.
The one idea that I would like you to do, if you wish, is to look at each peace of furniture and see how it is applied to Jesus. Example is the showbread. Jesus calls himself the bread of life.
Knowing the furnishings of the sanctuary gives you a much better understanding of the daily and the day of atonement. Unless Richard wishes to start someplace else, I think it is a good place to start.
I have not eaten, so I am going to get off and come back later. I may get on before you do, but I am delighted at your desire to learn and have communication on this subject, as the whole sanctuary understanding is one that I enjoy a great deal.
Liane
It's amazing how great minds......
Just about an hour ago my wife and I were eating in a salad bar restaurant with about a hundred other Silicon Valley denizens, and I remarked about how miraculous it was to be among all those people without being exposed to a single cigarette.
I like to really get into scriptural passages on an objective basis. The analogy you mention is a good one, but I like to ask questions like was it is the one Jesus had in mind. That is, was He plainly speaking in terms of sanctuary imagery when He said that.? Please remind me of the specific text.
--Harry
--Harry
Brother Harry, I think Sister Liane has a good suggestion. We have already given a simple overview of the sanctuary services and it would be good to look at the articles of furniture that the tabernacle and the courtyard contained. I appreciate the lessons, for they are rather easy to understand when one loves Jesus. The Holy Spirit will bless our study together.
I would like to begin in the courtyard if we can, then move into the Holy Place. The courtyard had two main objects, the brazen altar and the laver. What can we say about these two objects?
Richard
--Harry
I just surfed by tonight. I hadn't seen this thread before and have a small sidelight that might prove interesting about the altar in the courtyard.
Leviticus 1:13 But he shall wash the inwards and the legs with water: and the priest shall bring it all, and burn it upon the altar: it is a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.
When I read this I began to wonder about why God said put the inwards and the legs on the altar. Here is what I found. It was new to me, hope it isn't old hat to you. I found this to be very revealing about the sanctuary service and how the Israelites must have envisioned this sacrificial system.
Inwards from the Hebrew: Copied from "The Blue Letter Bible."
07130 qereb {keh'-reb}
from 07126; TWOT - 2066a; n m
AV - among 76, midst 73, within 24, inwards 22, in 6, misc 26; 227
1) midst, among, inner part, middle
1a) inward part
1a1) physical sense
1a2) as seat of thought and emotion
1a3) as faculty of thought and emotion
1b) in the midst, among, from among (of a number of persons)
1c) entrails (of sacrificial animals)
Notice that the inward part was both a physical sense and symbolic of the seat of the thoughts and emotions. Symbolically the sacrifice was a way of saying that they laid their very being on the altar. They were offering their very thoughts and emotions to God upon the altar.
Legs:
03767 kara` {kaw-raw'}
from 03766; TWOT - 1044a; n f
AV - leg 9; 9
1) leg
The Hebrew word was actually leg, but it has its roots in another word that also has very interesting symbolism attached to it.
03766 kara` {kaw-rah'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 1044; v
AV - bow 14, ...down 12, fell 2, subdued 2, brought low 1, couched 1,
feeble 1, kneeling 1, very 1; 36
1) to bend, kneel, bow, bow down, sink down to one's knees, kneel
down to rest (of animals), kneel in reverence
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to bow
1a2) to bow down, crouch
1a3) to bow down over
1a4) to tilt, lean
1b) (Hiphil) to cause to bow
The legs were symbolic of kneeling in reverence. So the Isrealites were in symbolism kneeling reverently before God while offering Him their very innermost parts, the seat of the thoughts and emotions. This symbolism was most likely very clear to them. These thoughts were tied directly to the words and substances used in the sacrificial system in their everyday language.
Now, the word translated as burnt offering also has an interesting second interpretation:
05930 `olah {o-law'} or `owlah {o-law'}
f act part of 05927; TWOT - 1624c,1624d; n f
AV - burnt offering 264, burnt sacrifice 21, ascent 1, go up 1; 289
1) whole burnt offering
2) ascent, stairway, steps
It was an ascent, a stairwat, steps. To where? To God. This had to create a very vivid picture in the hearts and minds of all who brought a sacrifice for sin.
I hope you found a blessing in this. I sure did.
Gary
Nice piece of work. I think everything you said is valid. It tells us a lot about you, and it’s all good!
I have to point out an irony I noticed a couple of days ago, while doing a study instigated by Richard. Sometimes the legs and innards are categorized with the animals dung. Ugh! (Lev 4:11) But then, so was it’s head.
If you see any ironies in my observations on the various services (above), please return the favor. :)
--Harry
If I understand what you are asking, I would like to start there from a quote above that you made and make it a starting point for myself. What has begun is very good, but I want to go back one step further before we get into the sanctuary discription itself.
You said: "He (Jesus) plainly speaking in terms of sanctuary imagery when He said that."
We must begin with Exodus 3:14: "And God said unto Moses, 'I AM that I AM': then said, thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."
In John 8:58: "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM."
So from this, we understand that it was Jesus, who called himself to Moses, I AM. So the discription of every furniture, every part of the tabernacle was given by Jesus to Moses. This is important as Jesus is telling Moses and the children of Israel much about himself and what he would be doing for us.
The second thing that I want to bring up, which is the heart of our understanding of what Jesus is presently doing now as the High Priest. We must understand, where did the ideas of discription of this tabernacle come from with Jesus.
Ex 25: 8 and 9: "And let them make me a Sanctuary that I may dwell among you. According to all that I show thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it."
Heb 8:5 "Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle."
From this we now begin to understand that it was Jesus who showed Moses the form in which this tabernacle was to take. It was a pattern of the one in heaven. The one made by hands is different somewhat from the one on earth in that some of the materials, that made up some parts of the curtains or walls of the sanctuary was skin of animals. But the embroidery of the angels inside of the Most Holy Place is correct in that in the heavenly, Most Holy Place angels are there about.
John, in revelation saw in vision the candlesticks, the ark of the testiment, etc. in heaven. This becomes important and clear as we learn more about the sanctuary and the Sanctuary Message given to us through the Bible studies of our pioneers and the visions of Ellen G. White.
The study and understanding of the Sanctuary is the center of our very message as doctrine and of Jesus. This message sets us apart from any other denomination as being given the gift of prophecy by Jesus to us.
The key verses in Revelation that is the core of the reason that we exist is:
Rev 12:17 "And the dragon was wroth with the women and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God and the TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST."
Rev; 19:10 "...for the TESTIMONY OF JESUS is the Spirit of Prophecy."
From this starting point I will also share some of what I see of the sanctuary itself. Richard and Gary have given you some very good things so far.
I enjoy this opportunity to share with you and please keep your questions coming.
Liane
Brother Harry, I think the altar of burnt offering and the laver would be good, But if you like we can go back out to the door of the courtyard and the curtains. :)
And of course the lamb and the sinner are the focal points. :)
Richard
--Harry
Finally getting grounded since I have been back from my vacation trip. Interesting experience to say the least.
In light of your last post I wish to share some initial background for the Sinner, Blood and the Lamb. I am sure this is all very basic and known by you, but I wanted a starting point for these three words before we got deeper. Then I hope that Richard as well as others and myself will share the deeper aspects of the daily service.
Lamb:
Some history of the Lamb and the application as the sacrifice.
Genesis 4:2
"And she again bare His brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep."
Verse 4: "And Abel, He also brought the FIRSLINGS of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering."
What was it that Abel understood that Cain did not? Was it the understanding of the sacrifice that would be necessary for the salvation of mankind.
Passover
Exodus 12:5 "Your lamb shall be without BLEMISH, a MALE of the FIRST year. These bolded words have great significance in reference to Jesus and the sacrifice he would make thousand of years later. The choice of an animal had, whether it was, a lamb, a bird, or whatever the family could afford to bring, had to meet these three tests for it to be used as a sacrifice for sin."
Jesus
Isaiah 53:7 "He was oppressed, and He was afflicted, yet He opened not his mouth. He is brought as a LAMB to the slaughter, and as a SHEEP before her shearers, is dumb, so He openeth not his mouth."
John 1:29 "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the LAMB of God, which taketh away the SIN of the world."
John the Baptist understood also as did Abel the principle of the LAMB and the understanding of the sacrifice that was yet to come. The word LAMB was chosen by John for that reason.
Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship Him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the LAMB slain from the foundation of the world."
Two points here. Again the choice of the word LAMB and that this sacrifice was not for those that accept Jesus, but for the whole world, even those that reject this sacrifice will acknowledge that this LAMB slain from the foundation of the world, those names that ARE NOT written in the book of life will one day also worship Him. Not in the reverence as the saved will, but none the less will acknowledge that He did die for them.
1 Peter 1:19 "But with the precious BLOOD of Christ, as of a LAMB without BLEMISH and without spot.
Who verily was forordained before the foundation of the world"
We see that the plan of salvation, the type and antitype would be met in the symbols that would be passed onto each generation. FIRSTBORN, WITHOUT BLEMISH, and the concept of BLOOD.
Back to the Old Testament
Genesis 9:4 "But flesh with the life thereof which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat."
Blood is the life source for every living thing. It is in the BLOOD that Jesus would shed for our sins that would redeem us.
Hebrews 9:22 "And almost all things are by the law purged with BLOOD: and without the shedding of blood is no remission of sins."
1 John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the BLOOD of Jesus Christ His son cleanseth us from all sin."
Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith, in His BLOOD, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forebearing of God."
It is through the experience of the literal children of Israel that partook of the daily sacrifice, that we of spiritual Israel see Jesus so clearly now. Type meets Antitype. The Bible is not really two different books, but one whole book of the story of Jesus. It is out of these books fused together we come to understand the character of God. The cross stand as the centerpiece of Christ and His righteousness and the Love that came forth from the Godhead in their dealings with sinful mankind. It is with the BLOOD of Jesus Christ that we have and are given eternal life.
What imagery Jesus has given us through the daily Sanctuary service that we will come to understand each and every thing that Jesus did to help us understand the price, the hope and the grace that gives our faith meaning today.
Liane
You certainly identified the only reason I know of to study the Hebrew sanctuary: :)
“It is through the experience of the literal children of Israel that partook of the daily sacrifice, that we of spiritual Israel see Jesus so clearly now.“
So what exactly was their experience partaking of the daily sacrifice? Surely to understand that experience, we need to study the scriptural description. Don’t the passages you mentioned pertain to an annual experience, namely the Passover?
--Harry
In regards to the trespass offering "every male among the priests shall eat thereof: it shall be eaten in the holy place..." Lev. 7:6.
The offering of the ram was required for forgiveness and the flesh of the ram must be eaten in the holy place. We shall come back to this when we look at the offerings, but suffice it to say that the lamb, ram, pigeon, etc. represented Jesus, our sacrifice. Forgiveness would come after the confession of known sin and the killing of the sacrificial ram. The ram was killed in consequence of the sin. In type the sins of the guilty had been transferred to the innocent ram. The wages of sin is death. Of course we know that the blood of the ram would never atone for any sins, it was only a type (shadow) to teach the Israelites and the world that Jesus would gladly bear our sins and our punishment, IF we would confess our sins and accept Christ as our Sacrifice.
Richard
Yes the Passover is a yearly event, but why I brought it up and mentioned it, is for two reasons.
It was the first experience that the literal children of Israel of drawing them to the understanding of the true Passover Lamb, Jesus Christ.
Just before this, while still under bondage, they were given the experience of blood protecting them from death while in Egypt. The marking of the blood on the doorposts signified God protection. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin, so therefore if you are not covered by the blood of Jesus, then one is not saved.
As a new people, having lived under pagan rule for over 400 years, they had lost what God had given to them because of the bondage and time. The Passover was the first real experience given to them by God as to the meaning of what it means to be a child of God. This was the first teaching to them of what it means to be the firstborn, without blemish, a lamb. All these symbols tell us of Jesus.
In 1 Corinthians 5:7 "Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavend. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us."
Just as for us, which are spiritual children of Israel in Christ are to become a new lump, so it was for the literal children of Israel with the Passover experience, they became a new lump.
God reminds the literal children of Israel that they once were in bondage to Egypt and that He made a way out for them. God continues to do that for us, through the BLOOD of Jesus, makes a way out for us from sin, freeing us from the bondage of sin.
Liane
Excellent exegesis! :) I just love digging into the exact wording of a passage.
You are certainly correct in pointing out that the sins of Leviticus 6 are deliberate--in contrast to the sins of ignorance of the preceding chapter. I can’t imagine anyone innocently defrauding a neighbor.
While reading this in other translations, I concluded that the KJV may be misleading when it says that the trespass offering is to be eaten by the priests in “the holy place”, since the KJV term for the second apartment is “the holy place”. My REB does a better job, I think, when it says, “The priest who officiates is to eat of the flesh; it must be eaten in a sacred place, in the court of the Tent of Meeting”. (Lev 6:26)
One other point, I mention for the sake of precision. The only place I have found in the Bible (so far) that actually mentions placing sin upon an animal offering is Lev 16:21, “putting them on the head of the goat” to be bourne out of the camp. Do you know of any passage that actually declares that sins are put upon an animal that is to die within the camp? That’s the prevailing assumption, but it would be nice to have a specific confirmation.
--Harry
Beautiful thoughts. :)
--Harry
You make mention of the KJV being in error in regards to the use of the words Holy Place. If there was one fault that I attribute to many who teach the Bible, it is their willingess to set aside so much of the Bible in favor of someone's suggestion that the Hebrew and the Greek say something different than what the Bible says. I know, Brother Harry, you did not do this, you quoted another "bible". Well, there are bibles many and I guess all can choose which one fits their particular ideas. I do not choose to find a Bible that fits my ideas. I chose the KJV because it is consistent and it was written in a time when Babylon had not fallen and was printing their own Bibles.
In a discussion with Desmond Ford, I understood his gospel to be other than the one Jesus has given us, and when he began to attempt to change Seventh-day Adventist theology (changing Holy Place to Most Holy Place), I took a look at the Greek to see how he was twisting the language. I am not fluent in Greek, matter of fact I don't know it, but I can understand that what he was trying to do, is just plain wrong. The use of the Greek may very well be interpreted the way the KJV has done.
Now, we do not have to argue over the Greek for the Bible is consistent and we shall see that Seventh-day Adventist theology has been correct in regards to the gospel including the judgment which began in 1844.
Line upon line, precept upon precept we shall see the power of God's grace to cleanse us from our unrighteousness no matter how many new Bibles attempt to hide the power of His love. :)
Richard
I’m pretty sure that you wouldn’t agree with the KJV’s assurance that the theif would be in paradise that day. :)
Are you saying that Aaron’s sons went into the second apartment to eat the trespass offerings?(!)
--Harry
In the sanctuary we see that God do not force anybody. Even though He don't use force he surely uses power. The power of love, "the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance" (Rom 2:4). No one forced the sinner to go into the courtyard. He had to use his own free will in order to get there. In the same way as the israelites had to look up to the serpent in the wilderness in order to be healed, we too must use our free will, cooperate with God and look in faith, even though the whole world is telling us that this is "science fiction".
But sometimes God can put us into situations that will help us to make the right use of our free will. In Leviticus 26 we read about the two possible futures for the jews. God wants to help us in choosing him. In the first 13 verses God reveals his future plan A and all the blessings He will give them. But if they don't want to choose him as their God, he can not bless them, and future plan B will be the reality. But God can turn plan B into something good. All the bad things that was going to happen the Israelites if they chose away God had only ONE purpose: to help them confess their iniquity and humble their uncircumcised hearts (v. 40-41).
When I was a little child (3-4 years old), I really loved my little brother (I still do!). But there was a short period of time where I in pure love for him went too far in expressing that love. Just of a sudden I would bite him. Of course my brother would cry, but I didn't seem to really understand the seriousness of the situation. At last my mother had to bite me (of course not so hard as I did) in order for me to understand that what I did to my brother was not so good. That worked! (I am still a vegetarian :) )
So it is with God. He may also use different methods in order for us to open our eyes and realize our fatal situation. In some cases he may hinder us from harm other people, but He does not force us to himself.
At the altar there are two possibilities: Either I can give my sins to Jesus, or I can choose to hold on them. Then it is I that have to suffer on the altar. It is life or death. We should therefore not be surprised when God sometimes has to "shout" or expose us to some unwanted situations. He loves us too much just to say: "Well, I am sorry that you don't want to live a happy life together with me and the rest of the universe, for all eternity." No, He does everything that is possible for every unbeliever in order to lead them to the sanctuary and to heaven. Much of his work and methods we do not see now, but one day we will be able to ask God in every detail how he led us to him and eternity. I am looking forward to these testimony meetings !
Allan F
"Hi Richard--
I’m pretty sure that you wouldn’t agree with the KJV’s assurance that the theif would be in paradise that day.
Are you saying that Aaron’s sons went into the second apartment to eat the trespass offerings?(!)
--Harry"
Hello Harry
I am going to be direct with you if it's OK?
I have had Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses use the above approach in an attempt to discredit the Bible to me, and make me lose my faith in the Word of God, so that I would believe "their word of god."
Now, I'm not saying this is what you are doing; but I am asking you to clarify to us why you are making such statements about God's Word?
I am currently teaching a class on How To Study The Bible; and I'm not sure I understand your "hermeneutics" or your "theology," or your "soteriology." here. :)
------------------
"...We believe that through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, we shall be saved..." (Acts 15:11).
Your brother in Christ
David T. Battler
In my error to learn certain things I had little understanding of the daily of the sanctuary, and boldly went to the year of atonement first, I guess you could say I took the cart in front of the horse.
So what have I learned lately. The outer court which contained the lavar and the alter for the burnt offerings is written only for the earthly. There is no mention of the outer court with the heavenly sanctuary.
There is reason. Because the outer court and the sin process was only related to the death of Jesus, so therefore there was a place for the outer court in which there is no heavenly pattern, only the sanctuary itself which contained the holy and most holy place and the objects therein can be seen elsewhere throughout the Bible.
Jesus was to be crucified on the earth, not in heaven, so the need for the imagery and process of the outer court was necessary.
So this is as much as I have come to understand so far. I had not forgotten, just found myself realizing that the daily is new to me. I understood the overview, but never studied this deeply before.
Liane
In the courtyard we learn about sin and its consequences. The holy place is where we learn how to walk in righteousness by the Spirit. And the most holy gives us a knowledge about the judgment.
I agree with you concerning what you said about the earth as being the antitype of the courtyard. Heaven, thus must be the antitype of the tabernacle. It seems logical to me so far.
Allan F
You wrote, “I am going to be direct with you if it's OK?”
By all means. :)
“I have had Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses use the above approach in an attempt to discredit the Bible to me, and make me lose my faith in the Word of God, so that I would believe "their word of god."
“Now, I'm not saying this is what you are doing; but I am asking you to clarify to us why you are making such statements about God's Word?”
To understand one another, it’s essential to read everything written here in context. I’m sure you would agree with that.
I had mentioned in passing that the KJV OT uses the term “holy place” to refer to the inner apartment, but that sometimes it uses the same term to refer to other sanctuary locations. Other translations are careful to use different terms for the inner apartment and the other locations.
I consider the “real” Bible to be the thoughts that its writers were tryiing to convey to us. The original Hebrew and Greek came closest to those thoughts. Since most of us cannot read the original languages,we are dependent on translations.
I do not believe any translation is inspired. Some treat the KJV as inspired. I have no interest in persuading them otherwise. I believe this subject is thoroughly discussed in the SDA Bible Commentary.
Thanks for asking.
--Harry
I believe that our church has traditionally used the term “sanctuary” to refer to all three areas. Certainly on the Day of Atonement, the courtyard and its altar were expressly cleansed by the sprinkling the same blood as the two apartments.
Have you concluded that there will be no antitypical cleansing of the courtyard by our High Priest?
--Harry
“The holy place is where we learn how to walk in righteousness by the Spirit. And the most holy gives us a knowledge about the judgment.”
I like the sound of that. But it’s not clear to me how the typical service teaches us anything about judgment in the Most Holy Place that is not taught in the other parts of the sanctuary.
Do you have any thoughts on this?
--Harry
I will try to answer this the best that I know how. If any brethren can give better, or correct where I err, please do so.
Your questions was: "Have you concluded that there will be no antitypical cleansing of the courtyard by our High Priest?"
WOW that is quite a question! If I understand your question, this is the answer I can give you.
We are talking about the daily, not the day of Atonement. If we are, then Jesus is not represented as the High Priest, but as the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. The type and antitype as far as the couryard has its correlation on the earth, there is no heavenly type or antitype in heaven for the courtyard of the daily or the Day of Atonement.
The work of the High Priest takes place only in the Most Holy Place in which there is a type and antitype on earth and in heaven in which our Lord Jesus partakes as the High Priest. There is no activity for the High Priest in the courtyard until after the cleansing of the Most Holy Place.
The earthly High Priest does nothing in the first room, called the Holy Place on the day of Atonement, only as a Priest in the daily. The two things that the High Priest did in the courtyard on the Day of Atonement was to kill the animal, take the blood and also coal off the alter as an offer of incense unto the Lord within the veil.
If my understanding is correct, Jesus is the Lamb in the courtyard, not the Priest or High Priest. The only type and antitype in the couryard is linked to the earth and the earth only.
Yet the High Priest does not do the burnt offering in the courtyard until after he has taken off the High Priest garments and has washed himself.
So therefore, Jesus also will not do any courtyard type and antitype until after he leaves the Most Holy Place and has taken off the garments of a High Priest and puts on the garments as King of kings and of vengeance.
The only type and antitype that I can see will again center on the earth in the final destruction of the wicked and Satan and his angels in that Great Day of the Lord of the courtyard activity of the day of Atonement of the final burnt offerings linked with the final destruction.
It is nice to be back and conversing with you. Hope this helps and please let me know what you think.
Liane
Good to be back. :)
Hmmm.
“The earthly High Priest does nothing in the first room, called the Holy Place on the day of Atonement, only as a Priest in the daily.”
Actually, the High Priest does more in the first room on the day of Atonement than in the second room. He changes clothes there twice. He bathes there twice. He sprinkles the blood of each of the two sin offerings there, just as he does in the second room--after he does so in the second room and before he does so in the courtyard. All this before he confesses the sins of the congregation on the head of the scapegoat and sacrifices the Day of Atonement burnt offerings. (According to Leviticus 16).
As to the courtyard, the High Priest sacrifices the two sin offerings there, each sacrifice of course happening BEFORE taking its blood into the tabernacle. And he cleanses the courtyard by the same blood sprinklings as in the two apartments BEFORE the scapegoat business.
I don’t know where we got the idea that the High Priest’s work on the Day of Atonement was exclusively in the Most Holy Place, but it’s widespread.
Another misconception is that the High Priest put on his high priestly garments only on the Day of Atonement. Actually, he took them OFF before he cleansed the sanctuary, and put them back on for the rest of his Day of Atonement ministry. These beautiful vestments, described in Exodus, chapters 28 and 39, were worn for all his other duties. While cleansing the three parts of the sanctuary, he wore simple linen garments. (Lev 16:4, 24)
So you see why I have a hard time matching our traditional antitypical model to the typical service.
--Harry
It is most interesting when one reads and reads scriptures and miss one little word.
Thank you for continuing this study as I am learning much.
Yes you are correct in verse 24 of Leviticus 16, it does state that the High Priest washed and changed garments was in the holy place. It is not clearly written in verse 4, but I would assume it is the same.
There are second set of garments which include: Linen under garment, embroidered coat, embroidered girdle, mitre with gold plate, blue robe of the ephod, ephod with onyx stones, breastplate and curious girdle.
The only record I could find of when the High Priest wore these garments was in Leviticus 8 at the consecration of the priests. I see no indication that he wore these garments during the Day of Atonement. I will study of this further.
Otherwise, from what I can see, I am still not seeing any other activity in the first apartment or what is called the holy place in which took place the Day of Atonement for the High Priest.
Verse 13- he puts the incense upon the fire before the Lord, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not. This fire was in a censer or pan and he put the incense on the fire which was in the pan at the foot of the mercy seat. This is different than the incense that is put on the altar of incense in the holy place.
Verse 14- The sprinkling of the blood seven times happens upon the mercy seat eastward and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his fingers seven times.
This is the Most Holy Place.
verse 15, he then comes out and kills the goat and goes back into the most holy place again and "do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock."
This again is also the Most Holy Place.
verse 18, he shall GO OUT unto the alter that is before the Lord, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat and put it upon the horns of the altar round about.
verse 19, And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his fingers seven times and cleanse it and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.
Which altar are they talking about? It states he "GO OUT," must mean that he left the sanctuary and went out into the courtyard. The altar spoken of then is the altar of the burnt offering and the horns thereof. The altar of incense did not need to be cleaned from the uncleanness of the children of Israel, it was the altar of prayer.
My choice of the word "only" regarding the Most Holy Place, which is poorly used, was to mean that he did "only" in the Most Holy Place and not in the Holy Place as far as the sanctuary is concern.
There is still some question in my mind of to know whether the morning and evening offerings were still done on that day , if so, then yes the High Priest did go into the Holy Place during that day.
Please explain more why you have a hard time matching our traditional antitypical model to the typical service?
Liane
It would seem to me that the basic reason why God gave His People a 'Type' of the 'Heavenly Sancturary' is that He needed to 'draw pictures on the wall' for a people who for, four-hundred and fifty years, 'lost track' of the 'God of their Fathers'? They had developed some of the most unhealthy and abhorant habits known at that time in history. They had been assimilated into the heathen culture, and basically needed a 'thunder and earthquaking experience' to 'wake them up'!
After Sinai, He [God] set up a testing station so-to-speak. He re-created for His people from the simpilest of examples a means to [a] re-gain their confidence(s); gain their willing worship; [c] and present to them a picture of what the 'Story of Salvation' was in order that they might 'spread the Good News' about the Truth about God... The Sancturary and it's services were to point their eyes to a 'Coming Redeemer'. The one promised in the 'First Covenant'. And, had they kept on line with His instruction; there would have been a completely different response to His [Jesus's] 'First Coming'. Don't you think? But sadly, they did not; and we all know the rest of the story...We however have to a greater extent the advantage over those during the OT times...We may, with honesty and open mindedness, look to, and comprehend the last page of this book! The Sanctuary, Investigative Judgement, and Prophecies must all be understood clearly for those who will be 'waiting in that remnant band' when Jesus comes...It is my prayer to be in that band. And that all those here may be also Sincerely your brother in Christ,
The best vitamin for the Christian is 'B1'!
Thank you for joining us here in the discussion of the Hebrew Sanctuary.
I have come to learn that the more one reads the Word the more one sees something that they did not see before. Each facet or view brings new and/or deeper meaning to what we learn. That is why we join together, write and share.
If I read someplace correct, Moses lived in Egypt for forty years. It was another forty years that took him to learn the lessons needed to be ready before he could bring the people out of Egypt. It was another forty years for the people to learn the lessons.
For a people who had been in bondage for 400 years, generation after generation, so few really knew the true God, the I AM. It is amazing that they were able to do it in 40 years. We know that God was their teacher, guiding them through, precept by precept.
The Sanctuary was the center of their very lives, day by day. The teacher and redeemer revealed in every piece of wood, fabric, metal and object. It must have been quite an experience as they gave of their gold, jewels, and watched it be built. Nothing is done without a purpose by God. There was and is a lesson to be learned and revealed regarding Salvation and our Lord Jesus in the Sanctuary.
Yes, you are right on target.
Liane
I could be wrong, of course, but I assume that the reason for the High Priest’s impressive costume was to dramatize to the people the importance of the office, and that therefore he would wear them at every reasonable opportunity. I can’t imagine him NOT wearing them while officating on high days. My take is that his instructions not to wear them during the cleansing portion of the Day of Atonement was to identify an exception.
I’m glad you got specific about the description in Lev 16. The cleansing of the first apartment is very easy to miss, especially in the KJV.
I agree fully with what you said about verses 13-15 and 18-19. But I’d like to call your attention to verse 16. Verse 16a summarizes the cleansing of the inner apartment. “And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins:”
The key hides in 16b.
“and SO shall he do for the TABERNACLE OF THE CONGREGATION [the outer apartment], that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.” (KJV)
It’s a lot plainer in most other translations:
“He is to do the same for the Tent of Meeting which is among them in the midst of their uncleanness.” (NIV)
This is reinforced by verse 20:
“And when he hath make an end of reconciling [1] the holy place, and [2] the tabernacle of the congregation, and [3] the altar, he shall bring the live goat:”
Clearly, he cleansed each of these three areas of the sanctuary by sprinkling the blood of each animal seven times in each area. Wouldn’t you agree?
--Harry
I think we can only decide what Jesus, the antitypical High Priest will do by carefully studying what the typical High Priest did.
The typical High Priest wore his usual high priestly garments before and after the cleansing, and simple linen clothing during the cleansing, right? If this is correct, then the sequence was:
1) He brought the ram and goat to the sanctuary wearing the usual vestments, the ones with the bells and pomegranates, etc.
2) He bathed and changed into the simple linen garments in the outer apartment. (V 4)
3) He cleansed the three parts of the sanctuary.
4) He confessed all the sins of the people over the scapegoat and sent it out of the camp to perish.
5) He bathed again in the outer apartment and put on his regular high priestly attire. (V23)
6) He offered the special Day of Atonement burnt offerings mentioned in verses 3 and 5. (V24)
So we see that according to Leviticus 16, the High Priest did *not * change clothes between the cleansing of the second apartment and the cleansing of the altar in the courtyard. Right?
If you see the typical High Priest removing garments between veses 16 and 18, please point it out. Otherwise, we must conclude that this service does *not* teach us that the antitypical High Priest removes any garments before cleansing the antitypical courtyard altar.
What do you think?
--Harry
Although I'm not sure I will accept in it's entirity the "forensic view"; I do believe that it qualify's our belief's as a "peculiar people"...[I have somewhat against the belief however that we must be persecuted because of or peculiar belief's...I have always believed that one "should be willing to be persecuted even to the death for his/her belief in Christ Jesus; on the other hand; one might ask if he/she is being "persecuted on the account of Jesus' sake", or on/because of their own private agenda?]
Thank to all for putting up with a newby...
May God bless all...Every one you meet today is on God's "Most Wanted List"!
Your qoute: "It’s not clear to me how the typical service teaches us anything about judgment in the Most Holy Place that is not taught in the other parts of the sanctuary. Do you have any thoughts on this?"
I agree with you that we may learn about the judgment outside of 'The Most Holy'. The very first thing visible when entering into the sanctuary, was the ashes from the offerings. This was what gave Asaph (in Psalm 73) an answer to what will happen to the transgressors at the end of time. If we do not give our heart and sins to Jesus he can not save us, and we must die for our own sins. As the 'daily' reveals, we may come to the 'the altar' every day 365 days a year. God is always ready to forgive us when we sin.
But, what 'the altar' doesn't tell us is the time for the judgment. The Day of Atonement, the only day when The Most Holy Place was "active", tells us that at the end of history, before his second coming (the feast of the tabernacles), God will judge his church (not the world). The only question he will ask, is: "Who are living in the covenant?" (symbolized by the ark of the covenant). When the judgment is finished the destiny of every soul are determined for eternity. After the Day of Atonement, there went some days before the feast of tabernacles arrived. This tells us that the time of probation will not last unto the second coming of Jesus. It will end some time before, but close to this event. This understanding is important, biblical but makes adventism unique in christianity. In Acts 3:19-21 Peter gives us the order in which things must take place:
1) Repent and be converted,
2) that the sins may be blotted out (completed in the final atonement),
3) when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord (pointing to the mighty outpouring of God's Spirit);
4) And he shall send Jesus Christ, whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things.
But, the following is a common view in christianity today: First Jesus will come (4). Then, for 1000 years the jews (and others) will share the gospel all over the world. The Holy Spirit will work with great power (3), and as a result, almost the whole world will repent and be converted (1). This is quite the opposite order!
Just briefly another aspect that only the Most Holy Place and the day of atonement reveals:
Satan will be given the entire responsibility for the sin, and will suffer for all the sins that the ones who will be saved have ever committed.
I look forward to your comments, Harry.
Allan F
Thank you for pointing out verse 16 to me more clearly. I had always put verse 15 and 16 together, but going back to my Jewish Bible, where I missed it also, it is also very clear.
Verse 16:
"And he shall do the same for the Tent of Meeting."
Verse 20:
When he had finished purging the Shrine, the Tent of Meeting and the altar."
I am still having trouble though with the garments. There still is no indication that he wore the Special Garments listed in my previous post on the Day of Atonement. The only place I could find was in Leviticus 8. Since I cannot see any other indication within the Bible, my feeling is we can really be sure other than looking at tradition.
Liane
I'd be interested in what tradition has to say about that too. I have a hard time picturing the High Priest wearing civies for any official ministry.
--Harry
“ The Day of Atonement, the only day when The Most Holy Place was "active", tells us that at the end of history, before his second coming (the feast of the tabernacles), God will judge his church (not the world).”
I don’t remember hearing the Feast of Tabernacles equated with the end of the world before. It may be worth noting that both of these events came LONG before the end of the sacred year defined by God. (7th month versus 12th) One would think that if God meant these to symbolize end-time events, that He would have made them end-year events.
The reason I fail to see how the cleansing of the Most Holy Place teaches something that the cleansing of the others does not is the fact that the same method is used to cleanse each: the sprinkling of each animals blood seven times.
It seems to me that the various applications you make, while not unreasonable, are subjective.
The problem with subjective applications is that they can neither be proven or disproven. All of them might be right, but might be wrong, because there is no objective scriptural test that can be made.
So I guess my comment would be: interesting and thoughtful, but we’ll have to wait and see. :)
--Harry
Your gracious acceptance of the two points I raised set me to thinking. I didn’t catch them for many years either. It occurs to me that it we could miss them, reading Lev 16 at leisure, then our pioneers could have missed them too, considering the pressure they were under.
Maybe that’s why they pictured Jesus wearing the vestment with the bells and pomegranates into the Most Holy Place, and had Him go directly from there to the scapegoat.
Any thoughts?
--Harry
I only have time to answer the first part of your comments now, considering The Feast of Tabernacles and what it symbolizes and how it relates to history. I would appreciate if you would be more specific about were I am subjective.
Some of this you will find in the SDA-BC:
Although the feast of tabernacles came two weeks after the end of the civil calendar year, it was actually the celebration of the close of the agricultural year and was referred to as "the feast of ingathering... in the end of the year" (Ex 23:16). It was a joyous occasion for all. On the Day of Atonement the people were to afflict their souls. At the Feast of Tabernacles they were to "rejoice". It was altogether the happiest occasion of the year, when friends and neighbours dwelt together in love and harmony. In this respect it was prophetic of the time when the great ingathering of God's people shall take place (Rev 14:14-16). As Jesus was the anti type of the sheaf of the firstfruits (Lev 23:10,11 - passover) the rejoice over the great ingathering of his people at the end of time is the anti type of The Feast of Tabernacles.
When we consider the jewish feasts (Lev 23), they reveal the ministry of Jesus and the history of his church in chronological order. The passover and pentecost are linked together. The passover took place at the beginning of the year (in the beginning of the christian history) and symbolized the death and ressurrection (v.11) of Jesus. Then, "shall ye number fifty days" (v.16) which leads us to the pentecost. In this way these two feasts are linked together in time. From the first (passover) we can directly calculate the other. This means that we could calculate how long time it would go from Jesus' ressurection to the pentecost. But we can not calculate The Day of Atonement from the time of pentecost by simply counting the days in between. We may only know that the antitype of the Day of Atonement will take place after pentecost and at the end of history (Dan 8:17,27). We need a prophecy in order to break through the yearly circle of feasts. And that prophecy we find in Daniel 8 and 9. This helps us to calculate the date 1844. The last feast, The Feast of Tabernacles, we only know comes after the Day of Atonement (judgment). We have no prophecy to settle this date, and it is not directly linked with the Day of Atonement (as the passover is linked with the pentecost). In this way we do not know how long time it will take from the judgment is finished (Rev 15:8) to the time when the ingathering takes place and the spiritual "agricultural year" is over (Rev 14:15,16) and the eternal rejoice will begin (anti type of Feast of Tabernacles).
This was a bit dry, but I hope it makes sense :)
Allan F
I’m glad you didn’t take my remark about subjeciveness as a criticism in the pejoritive sense of the word. To me, it’s subjective when we make an application, and objective when the Bible explicitly makes the application. For instance, if the Bible told us that the High Priest performed an investigative judgment in the Most Holy Place, I would consider that objective evidence.
Thanks for the the SDA BC material. I don’t find it to be dry, but I do find it equivocal.
They did not mention the text on the subject that is UNequivocal:
“This month [when they left Egypt] shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.” (Ex 12:2)
The “tenth day of the seventh month” is also unequivocal. As far as I can recall, the Bible never numbers the months in any other way.
“In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the lord’s passover.” (Lev 23:5)
“Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement” (Lev 23:27
Etc.
I don’t think a reference to an ingathering feast at the end of the harvest year serves to overrule the numerous explicit statements regarding God’s definition of the beginning and numbering of the months of the year.
In fact their selection of words to excerpt seems almost disingenuous. They should have finished the sentence in Ex 23:16. “...which is in the end of the year WHEN THOU HAST GATHERED IN THY LABOURS OUT OF THE FIELD.”
So I think it’s fair to say that God’s decision to put the Day of Atonement in the seventh month instead of the twelfth, is certainly not an endorsement of it as an end-time event.
--Harry
Your question "Any thoughts?" has brought me to Hebrews in the New Testament in looking for an answer.
This is brief, as I am writing this before going to work. I will need to study further and will get back to you.
Again thank you for this opportunity in study. It has given me the desire to study deeper of which in the past I never took.
Some verses in Hebrews gives me the insight into what our pioneers saw and in that they did not miss anything as they went beyond where we are right now in the study and where we will go.
The missing for ME of the holy place or the Tent of Meeting could be as the work of Jesus in the Most Holy Place has not been completed. My study had not gotten that far as I did not see it. It is something to think about and to look at.
Hebrews 4:14
"Seeing then that we have a GREAT high priest that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession."
Hebrews 8:6
"But now hath he obtained a more EXCELLENT ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a BETTER covenant, which is establised upon better promises."
Hebrews 9:11
"But Christ being come a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building."
The high priest of the earthly tabernacle was a mortal man, following and administrating as the representative of the children of Israel, and he was a mortal man who had to do the administration for himself of the blood, whereas Christ knew and commited no sins.
So yes there is some differences of the Day of Atonement for the earthly tabernacle with the high priest, but the cleansing of the sanctuary has significant counterparts with greater meaning and with a finish that will change the whole course of life as we know it today on this planet.
These are just simple thoughts being put forth this early morning with the need for deeper and better study.
Liane
At-any-rate, here goes some of the thoughts running through my one brain cell :)
Allan F raised the thought that the "time of refreshing" pointing to the "Latter Rain" is in some way related to his other three points: [1] Repent and be converted; [2] Sins to be ultimately blotted out in the final atonement in the Heavenly Sanctuary; [3] Christ "sent" as the (final?) restitution of all things.
A] I really cannot see the corelation between the Refreshing and the Latter Rain in regard to either the earthly or heavenly sanctuaries. Could some one [Allan] explain?
B] Does not 'conversion' imply a 'change in heart' which is 'true repentance? Sort of backwards to the way Allan placed them. But it does raise an issue worth mentioning (IMO). Especially in the evengilical protestant theology, the idea of 'repent or be killed' seems prevelant today...One preacher on the Christian radio broadcast I listen to daily makes this statement: "Time is short and hell is hot"! This is a 'mentality' which I do not think belongs in relationship to the 'character of the God' whom I worship...What do y'all think?
David and Ezekiel both refer to this 'heart change'...Without which there would be now hope for man...Leading to the question which, from the first time I heard it has boggeled my mind: What is the problem with sin that the Plan of Salvation was intended to fix?
I've no doubt that all are able to, after following this to its furthest extrimity. To hold the view that the atonement is simply a manifestation of the love of God for humanity and not God's objective solution for the sin problem...
It follows that the atonement is a personal matter and operates in a personal relationship restoring the sinner back into a 'right relationship' with God'...However, and (IMO), this is all to often weighed disproportionately [the sin problem] with the definition of sin which range in degree from 'sin which merely alienates man from his Creator'; to, 'sin as a legal' [we have brooken the rules, now some one must be punished] or forensic adjustment idea which must be acted out in order that the account on the books in heaven may remain justified to the 'wrath of God against sin'.
I personally believe that from its inception
[sin], was additionally more than a mere state of 'lawlessness' or 'rebellion'. Sin does even more than alienate man from his relationship with God. Sin 'damages' [mortally] the sinner...Repeated sin 'hardens the heart against God'. I think first of all about the story of Pharaoh. God there 'hardens' Pharaoh's heart...Exodus 7 thur 11.
Pharaoh (IMO) essentially 'hardened his own heart', chose NOT to follow the commandment of God to let His people go. In doing so, Pharaoh became as those who are found outside the Heavenly Gates, unrepentant, unhealable sinner's who would literally parish in the presence of God, and the admittance into heaven would be to them a true horror. Therefore, we must properly assert both the 'love of God'; and, His 'righteousness and justice' in order to further 'define' the terms and conditions of 'Atonement'... [subjective & objective views] Whatcha think?
Be kind and really confuse them! Your brother in Christ...
You have raised some thoughtful points.
It seems to me that human ingenuity could design an infinite number of scenarios that use some of the details of the Hebrew sanctuary while rejecting others. The ideal one would use all of the details. No one has ever done that, and I think you have correctly identified the reason.
So how do we evaluate the myriad of models that use only some of the details. We can shrug off the task and say I’ll just believe what the pioneers believed. But then we find that they didn’t all agree, and individual views were not static!
I have concluded that the only practical approach--for me--is to ask to what extent a particular scenario is CONSISTENT with scripture. And whether each feature of the scenario is REQUIRED by the scripture. This has proven to be a surprisingly straightforward and satisfying approach, because it simply identifies discrepancies and speculation as such and leaves it at that.
For instance, since Aaron cleansed the Most Holy Place and the Holy place in exactly the same way, to assume that Jesus to cleanses the Most Holy Place and not the Holy Place is a discrepancy. Why not assume that He cleanses the Holy Place and not the Most Holy Place. That’s just as consistent--and inconsistent.
Does he perform an investigative judgment on the antitypical Day of Atonement? Maybe so, but that’s speculation, isn’t it? I mean, the Bible doesn’t say that typical High Priest did that.
The other approach I’m using is to try to walk in our pioneers’ moccasins. That is, gather as many of their writings I can and follow their changing views, and the arguments they gave for the changes. I can hope that what convinced them will convince me, and I’ll know which of their scenarios to accept.
--Harry
For the reasons I mentioned to Liane, I have to ask, does the Bible actually say that the court represents the earth? Are we told that there is no courtyard and altar in the heavenly sanctuary?
And if we decide that Jesus wore special priestly garments because Aaron did, shouldn’t he put them on and take them off at the same points in the service that Aaron did?
Aaron wore the same vestments to cleanse the altar in the courtyard that he wore to cleanse each of the apartments of the tabernacle, didn’t he? Why assume that Jesus will take them off before cleansing the courtyard altar?
What does Aaron’s carrying the ashes from the courtyard signify? I agree with Liane that not everything in the service has an atitype. If the Bible doesn’t say what it signified, there’s no way to know. Does it say?
--Harry
Since the title of this forum/section is the Bread of Life, I presume that it’s the Bible’s guidance we are focussing on here. In any event,EGW said we are not to use her writings as authority for the meaning of the Bible, didn’t she? Furthermore, our church declares adamantly that our sanctuay doctrine did not originate with her.
My objective is to see--and discuss--just what the Bible says about the sanctuary. Inevetably, that means acknowledging what it does NOT say. A surprising number of the details of our sanctuary tradition are not actually stated in the Bible.
--Harry
Wishing you a blessed Sabbath this day and to all that may share in this topic. Your last post above regarding the Bread of Life.
This is going off the subject at hand, and I know has been addressed in other topics in the past of just what is the source of the Testimonies and do they have the same authority as the Bible.
Also, I am speaking for myself in my response to you. These are my convictions and may or may not represent others on this forum. We all come from different points in life and may be standing in different places in our relationship with our God. Therefore my responses are my own.
Matthew 26:26
"And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take eat: this is my body."
Very clearly here Jesus spoke of himself as the Bread of Life. The Bible are His Words to us unto salvation. So therefore, the title of this forum is regarding Jesus, and of his words to us from those sources that he has given us in the past.
And just as the Bible is the Word of God, Ellen G. White very clearly stated over and over again, that the words written in the Testimonies were not her words, but came from above. Her statement that the Testimonies are the lesser light to the greater light, no way implies that the authority of her writing was lesser, but that in the grand scheme of things, her writings were in fact pointing to the Bible.
Just as we find that the New Testament points most often to the Old Testament, the Spirit of Prophecy also points to the whole Bible.
We can find things in the New Testament that are not written in the Old Testament, does that diminish the Old Testament in the authority of God's Word? NO. So as there are understandings written in the Spirit of Prophecy, that are not in the Bible, does not diminish the Bible. Nor does it go the other way around, just because there are things in the new Testament that are not in the old, does not mean they did not come from God, just as there are in the Spirit of Prophecy things not written in the Bible.
This is a old soul here that has been blessed by the gift of the Spirit of Prophecy. I take in hand both the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy as the authority of my life in Jesus. Whatever tools the Lord has given me, I have been blessed by them.
I have learned that through these teachings of both the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy, health, joy, peace and love has been passed through me to be given unto the world that hungers for the righteosuness of the Son, but know it not.
I know for myself, the day that I thought I stumbled onto this church and its teachings was in actuality the guiding hand of my Lord. Now I can look back at my life and see the footsteps that has brought me to the place I now stand. I have been blessed and given much understanding from both the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy. I accept them both as the authority in my life.
Liane
Your statement; "I concluded that the KJV may be misleading when it says that the trespass offering is to be eaten by the priests in “the holy place”, since the KJV term for the second apartment is “the holy place”. My REB does a better job"
Woudl you be kind enough to explain this further? I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here.
Sincerely
Dugald
Richard
"I consider the “real” Bible to be the thoughts that its writers were tryiing to convey to us. The original Hebrew and Greek came closest to those thoughts. Since most of us cannot read the original languages,we are dependent on translations.
I do not believe any translation is inspired. Some treat the KJV as inspired. I have no interest in persuading them otherwise. I believe this subject is thoroughly discussed in the SDA Bible Commentary."
Hello Harry
Thanks for your clarifications. Of course, it has generated more questions; but first, I need to ask:
Where in the SDA-BC could I find this discussion you are referring to? I would like to check it out. :)
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"Know the grace of God in Truth." (Col.1:6).
Your brother in Christ
David T. Battler
Thank you for your postings. Concerning my four points from Acts ch. 3, it was not my intention to link them with the sanctuary service. My primary intention was to make a comparision between adventism and a common view among christians regarding important biblical events. Specially, I wanted to show that mans destiny and salvation is decided before the coming of Jesus, and not after his arrival which is tought in some of the christian churches. This biblical truth we may also learn from the order of the jewish feasts. The Day of Atonement came prior to the Feast of Tabernacles (symbolizes heaven, which is an anti type of the last and happiest event of the jewish year). I am sorry that I did not make my thoughts and intentions clearer.
Allan F
1. "I consider the 'real' Bible to be the thoughts that its writers were trying to convey to us. The original Hebrew and Greek came closest to those thoughts. Since most of us cannot read the original languages, we are dependent on translations."
It is true that most of us cannot read the Bible in the original Hebrew and Greek languages, but the Seventh-day Adventist Church has outstanding Hebrew and Greek scholars WHO CAN. And they have provided us with what I believe to be--not necessarily perfect--but, highly competent and reliable expositions on the same of which I accept as faithful and in keeping with the original thoughts and intentions of the writers.
2. "I do not believe any translation is inspired. Some treat the KJV as inspired...."
It also appears to be true that there are, in some, various disagreements and discrepencies from Bible translation to Bible translation in certain words, phrases, and dates. But I very firmly believe that the GREAT PRINCIPLES OF SALVATION that are found in the King James Version ARE SUFFICIENT to provide us with ENOUGH that will lead to eternal life, IF one is willing to follow those principles.
The work of the salvation of souls IS GOD'S WORK and not man's. As a result, I cannot be convinced that God is so inept and/or absentminded that He would permit a "translation" of His Holy Word to thwart or interfere with that work.
M.A.
I stumbled upon this text as a result of this thread.
“And the remainder thereof shall Aaron and his sons eat: with unleavened bread shall it be EATEN in the HOLY PLACE: in the court of the tabernacle of the congregation they shall eat it.” (Lev 6:16, KJV)
“Holy place” is the KJV term for what we usually call the “Most Holy Place”. Since Richard was being strict with the wording, I was wondering if he understood this to mean that the leftovers from the offering were eaten in both the Most Holy Place and in the courtyard.
There’s a similar problem in the instructions for the Day of Atonement, regarding the first act of the High Priest :
“Thus shall Aaron come into the holy place: with a young bullock for a sin offering, and a ram for a burnt offering.”
Our pioneers seem to have overlooked these two animals altogether, in their construction of the antitype. But the words seem to say that the High Priest’s first entry into the Most Holy Place on the Day of Atonement was with the special burnt offering victims.
In any event, the match between the Hebrew service and our traditional concept of Jesus’ fulfillment of it doesn't appear as close as I used to think.
--Harry
What does the courtyard represent? If the Bible tells us the answer to that, I haven’t found it yet.
If the Bible doesn’t say, I’m content not to know.
What the Bible DOES tell us, is that the High Priest cleansed the courtyard altar the same way he cleansed the Most Holy Place, BEFORE he removed his linen vestment. That doesn’t match up well with the cleansing of the earth with fire a thousand years AFTER the antitypical Day of Atonement ends, does it?
--Harry
There’s certainly a wide spectrum within Adventism regarding the nature of Ellen White’s writings and their authority vis-a-vis the Scriptures. I think the best way to reduce the differences is for everyone (who cares) to become as familiar with the evidence as possible. This isn’t the thread for that discussion, but I think it’s been pretty well established that she borrowed the words of others quite extensively.
Suffice it to say, she stated somewhere that if God’s people had studied the Scriptures properly, their would have been no need for her ministry. Unfortunately, many have used her writings as a substitute for deep Bible study. I did so, myself, for scores of years.
I believe that studying the Bible independent of her writings does NOT diminish them. :)
--Harry
In answer to your question:
There is an excellent discussion of variant readings in Bible manuscripts, due to copiest’s errors etc., on pages 140-146 of Volume 5 of the SDA Bible Commentary.
Very enlightening.
--Harry
I do not really wish to confuse this issue. I need more time to think it over. However, in this past weeks SS Class, our teacher made the comparison that, all 'sacrifices' were 'burnt' AFTER they had died. The 'blood' being representative of the 'life' being 'poured out for the justification of the sinner'. I have no trouble with that. It was, however, suggested that the final demise of 'sinners' must preclude of any life 'left in them'. Does this make any sense to any one out there. And if so, would someone please explain?
This is surely 'wonderful new' that the 'Latter Rain' is poured out on God's people in such a way as to [prepare them for what is soon to come?] or, [present a group here on earth who will become the 'harvester's of the field'?]...or what?
Thanks to all for your time and considerate responses to my particularly simple questions.
Sincerely you brother in Christ.
quote
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It was, however, suggested that the final demise of 'sinners' must preclude of any life 'left in them'. Does this make any sense to any one out there. And if so, would someone please explain?
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Are they suggesting that sinners are dead before they are burned or are they suggesting that all spiritual life has gone out of them before they are burned?
In either case the sacrifice of the animal doesn't represent the death of the sinner. The animals killed represented Jesus and His death on our behalf. Now the fat in the animal did represent sin generally and there was a part of the service during the Day of Atonement where the fat of the sin offering was burned on the alter Lev.16:25. This could be symbolic of the purification of the earth from sin by fire.
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WendyL ~ Maranatha!:)
I have read through most of your postings on this thread in order for me to understand your view concerning "The Day of Atonement", its antitype and in what ways this relate to us.
So far I have found these words to be the most useful in describing your view:
"Does he [Jesus] perform an investigative judgment on the antitypical Day of Atonement? Maybe so, but that’s speculation, isn’t it? I mean, the Bible doesn’t say that typical High Priest did that."
I am sure you agree with me that all the main jewish feasts have an anti type in the christian era and that they teaches the main truths that God wanted the Jews to understand and also us as christians to understand. I beleive that it would be good for the discussion if you would explain your view about the Day of Atonement more completely to us (if you can). What main truths do you beleive that God wants to teach us through "The Day of Atonement" and its anti type?
Looking forward to your answer.
Allan F
For some time now, I’ve been trying to separate my theology into two categories:
1) What the Bible plainly says. And
2) Accumulated traditions about what the Bible means.
To my chagrin, I find that most of what I have learned--as a lifelong Adventist, by the way--falls into category 2.
Paul says that the law, which in his vocabulary included the sanctuary service, was a custodian for the Hebrew nation until the coming of the Promised Seed. I haven’t found any evidence in the Bible that the sanctuary service taught them much of anything. :)
As to the Day of Atonement, Lev 16 says that it was to cleanse the sanctuary of ALL of the sins and sinfulness it had accumulated by being physically located in their midst. So I guess that ‘s what I believe. I simply don’t find anywhere in the Bible where it says that sprinkling blood is a prophecy of investigative judgment. So I put that squarely in category 2.
--Harry
One of the greatest gifts the church has been given is the Spirit of Prophecy. Without the Sanctuary Message there would have not been a SDA Church.
Ellen G. White stated that if the people had studied the scriptures as they should have there would not have been a need for the Spirit of Prophecy. But the people did NOT study as they should. God realizing that many would have been lost, called out a young girl to reveal His Character through the pen of inspiration. That on the day of judgement none could say that God did not do everything that could be done.
This is not to say that the Cross was not all that our Lord and Saviour did do was not enough, it most certainly was. It is not in the plan of salvation that I speak of, but in the manner in which the plan of salvation has been revealed to the world and what our God was doing about sin. The way to God is through the Sanctuary and we have been blessed with this precious knowledge and the understanding of salvation in a way that reaches beyond any other denominations.
Psalm 77:13
"Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary."
Everything that we have learned of salvation comes from the scriptures through the revelation of the Sanctuary since 1844.
Many denominations speak of salvation and the Cross, but have missed the mark where it truly has been revealed. The Sanctuary teaches us about the blood of Jesus. It was the blood going into the sanctuary on a daily bases due to our sins that required on the Day of Atonement with placing of the sins on the live goat to be taken out.
It is this live goat, which is represented as Satan and the end of the world that the sins will be placed on him. It is the revealing of what happened to this live goat on the day of atonement will happen again.
We must always remember the words spoken of by Ellen G. White concerning her writings. It was by scriptures that they learned of these precious truths. Only when after much study that an understanding was not clear that she would be brought into vision for the clarity of it. These visions would clear the minds of those in study and bring the light that was being missed, but it was the scriptures themselves that revealed the hidden gems.
I am always reminded whenever I read my Bible of the comma put in the wrong place by man, not by God, regarding the thief on the cross next to Jesus and what our Lord said to him. The words inspired by God to the writers are there in plain sight, but it is man who changes the meanings to fit their preconcieved ideas.
I grieve at the thought of how many people have been lost because they had been told of an eternal burning hell. Denied of the true character of God and His mercy.
I am also reminded that what I say and how I say it can have eternal effects on the lives of others. These people who read what I write are my responsibility. God will hold me in account for my actions or lack of for other souls. My God has made me realize this.
Liane
It has always amazed me in reading the Word that we learn each time a new insight or revelation that God brings to our attention.
Sometimes He brings people into our lives that causes us to dig even deeper than we may have done before, for gems that we never would have seen or understood before.
This is what I have come to understand. This synopisis is the outgrowth of this study that we have been following for some time now in this topic of the Hebrew Sanctuary.
There are many steps the earthly High Priest had to do. Because he as such, as the rest of us are sinners need of a Saviour. Therefore there were procedures that the earthly High Priest had to follow in order to be able to be a representative of the children of Israel. These steps of washing, special garments to wear, of cleansing and atonement was only necessary for the earthly High Priest. For he had to be free from sin in order to be the role as the representative for the congregation. This process was the offering of the bullock which represented in the blood of Jesus.
In this process there is no counterpart for Jesus as the High Priest, but only as our Saviour is it revealed as the sin offering of the bullock for the sins of the earthly High Priest and his own household.
But in the similarities we see several significant works that took place on the Day of Atonement.
1. Both acted as the representatives of the people of their sins and the offering of the blood for the sins of the congregations. Just as the earthly High Priest acted as the representative of the Children of Israel, so Jesus acts as the representative of the whole world as the second Adam.
2. It is in verse 15 of Leviticus that Jesus as the High Priest and as the goat can be seen. Here Jesus not only has a counterpart as the High Priest, but as the sin offering. Both Jesus and the earthly representatives are doing the work of the blood for sin offering of the people. It is seen that Jesus has a duel role.
3. We also see the counterparts of both in the atonement (purging) of the sins of the cleansing of the Sanctuary starting with the Most Holy Place, the Holy Place and in the courtyard.
4. In verse 20 it is stated "And he hath made an end of the reconciling." It is noted here that Jesus has not left the Most Holy Place, so therefore the process of the Holy Place and the Courtyard has not been fulfilled.
The world has not yet come to its end.
5. But when it does, we will see Jesus come out of the Most Holy Place to finish the work of reconciliation by the offering of the blood in the Holy Place and the Altar in the courtyard.
6. When this has been done, Jesus as the High Priest will place his hands on the head of the live goat/Satan and confess the iniquites, all their transgressions in all the sins of the people. Just as the earthly High Preist did this with the live goat, so will Jesus do with Satan at the end of the earth.
7. Just as the live goat was sent into the wilderness to die, which more than likely took many days, so will Satan be sent to the abyss of the earth for a 1000 years awaiting for the time of his death. Who will be the fit man is my guess, Gabriel.
8. When we get to verse 23 and part of 24, then again there is no counterpart of the earthly High Priest with Jesus.
9. But I do see something in the end part of verse 24 and 25. But that is for futher study and will be brought forth sometime later this week.
In the big picture just as in the earthly daily, the sins of the people were brought into the Holy Place. Just as our sins have been brought into the heavenly Holy Place since the fall of Adam.
Just as on the Day of Atonement once a year the earthly High Priest brought the sin offering into the Most Holy Place, Jesus as our High Priest is now making atonement (purging) the sin offering for the sins of the people.
This is where we are at right now in the course of the heavenly work of Jesus. To go beyond this is to step into the future. A future work of Jesus yet to be completed in the work of the Sanctuary.
Liane
Allen: I'm not at all sure of your "comparision between adventism and a common view among christians" as you put it...maybe this could be linked to a newbys lack of understanding of the subject? At-any-rate, verses 19-21 seem to speak particularly to your "comparision(s)?"...
I think in a general sort of way, my question results from a limited understanding of the phrase, 'restitution of all things'. This restitution would consequentially, be accounted for in the 'Day of Atonement'...If so, how does the dual 'Atonement' of Christ at the cross; and, Christ ministering to us in the Holy of Holies, lend to this understanding?
Wendy: The illistration which was being made in the SS Class was this: It was not the 'sin offering' itself. The issue was in relation to Romans 1: 18-28...vs. 24,26,28 in particular. This of course is that God 'turned away' from the sinner...Because God is 'the sustainer of life', after 'life' has been extracted, than only what is left will be burnt...Doesn't make sense to me, and this teacher holds his ground regarding the issue without a real explination as to how he has come up against it...
I am at this point somewhat limited to my access to the internet, as my driver's license has been suspended due to my disability having no computer at home...
For this reason, I probably won't be back to the University until Wednesday...
Hope to hear from you by then...
Your brother in Christ...
Ever since the fall men have disobeyed God. The Lord gave Cain and Abel directions regarding the sacrifice they were to bring Him. Abel, a keeper of sheep, obeyed the Lord's command, and brought a lamb as his offering. This lamb, as it was slain, represented the Lamb of God, who was to be slain for the sins of the world. Cain brought as an offering the fruit of the ground, his own produce. He was not willing to be dependent on Abel for an offering. He would not go to him for a lamb. He thought his own works perfect, and these he presented to God.
And do we not see the same today?
Richard
It appears that Abel not only understood what was required in the sacrificial alter service. He also thoroughly understood the plan of salvation. Restoration and ultimate Atonement were, I believe also understood by those who faithfully served God...
How Adam and Eve must have suffered watching their children, grand children; generation after generation following self-will and arrogance against God's plan for redemption.
This leads to a question I have refered to in some of the other posts I've made in this forum. What was the problem with sin that the plan of salvation was devised to fix?
Sincerely your brother in Christ
Richard
<Stop> What Biblical proof can you give regarding the issue that they "knew" that Jesus could give them victory over sin? This is unfamiliar theology to me...My understanding of this issue is that they "knew" that He [Jesus] would ultimately "win" the conflict begun in the garden by satan and his deception...And, they "knew" that, as you said, the lamb represented Jesus...However, how would a "sinless live" be possible to them? Even living a "perfect" life following the fall, was not their "flesh" by way of "sin" mared, and therefore "not perfect"?
>>The plan of salvation promised a new nature in sinful flesh. It provided for a race of beings that would have a character more perfect [?] than Adam and Eve had before they fell.[?]
<Stop> How can this be? "More perfect" than what? Before they fell, on the creation eve of their creation, God had looked over His newly completed garden and pronounced it "Very, Very Good"!
Now, perhaps, is a good place to insert what has become a deeper and deeper question than I had first imagined when first hearing it myself...What was the problem with sin that the plan of salvation was designed to fix?
Additionally, which was more important to God: His Law? Or, His creation?
One more thought [in four parts] before closing in regard to the Hebrew Sanctuary, it's antitypical symbology, in particular which may discussed at more length: a) The Creator-God sat enthroned between the cherubim, symbolic of His actual reign and sovereignty over all the creation [Ex. 20:8-11]; b) The law spoke not only of moral intergrity and righteousness; it also gave the throne of God the attribute of justice; c) The Ark also reflected the divine attitude of grace; d) Finally, the attention of Israel was to be drawn to contemplate the mediatorial ministry of the priesthood. Throughout the year the priests had approached God on their behalf, mediating the shed blood of the sacrifices, and offering up fragrant incense on the golden alter. On the Day of Atonement the high priest stood within the very throne room of God, in the immediate presence of Diety, administering both incense and blood, thereby removing sin from the sanctuary and securing the approval of God for His people. IN this last instance, then, the ark became to them a throne of mediation, intercession, and salvation through a representative priest who could reconcile man to God...
The problem, however, was that Isreal [and perhaps Spiritual Israel?] never really "got it"...
Blessings from Him who is ABLE!
Your brother in Christ
Here is your Bible support. Genesis 3:15, "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman..." But, my dear brother, throughout the Bible we find the same promise to us who are much worse than Eve. :)
My favorite is Ezekiel 36:26, 27. What do you think? :)
Richard
This "life" which they had was, at least as I have been thus far taught, a "probationary period" in which they, as are we all, given the chance to come to a decision on our own based upon fact and evidence...Reasoning by which they may "receive or reject" God's way of doing things...Freedom means giving the other person the right to say "yes or no"!
Here too brings up another thought. Is it enough to "know the truth"? Or, do we, or must we do "something" with the truth which has been given us? And, by reasoning, do we think it possible to come close to the "thoughts of God"?
And finally, I'll re-ask the question...Is hatred for sin enough? Do we not also need to act upon that hatered? Do we not need to reach beyond ourselves to something unknown, unseen, virtually unheard...grasping by "faith" what we cannot and will not grasp literally? I honestly see no "promise" of a "victorious life" in the scripture you have given...Maybe you would explain further?
Your brother in Christ.
It is hard sometimes for me to take one set of words such as "victorious life," and apply it to other words that mean the same thing.
What I have found are two scriptures that appear to me to say the same as above.
Revelation 3:21
"To him that OVERCOMETH will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also OVERCAME, and am set down with my Father in his throne."
My view of this would be is that for one to overcometh, one would have the victorious life.
In Revelation 14:1-5
"And I looked and lo, a Lamb stood on mount Zion, and with him a hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Then in verse 4 and 5:
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whither soever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb.
And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
It appears from here that 144,000 will have had the victorous life, for they are found without fault.
I will keep looking and I am sure Richard would do far better than me.
Liane
[This message has been edited by liane (edited 06-20-2001).]
We can look at 1 John 2:1 "My little chidren, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not."
Best of all we can listen to the Lord, Jesus Christ tell us what the requirements for salvation are: "And a certain ruler asked Him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit etenral life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother."
In the sermon on the mount Jesus said the same: "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Hope this helps a little. :)
Richard
Now the idea of perfection in relationship to Adam and Eve takes on a new meaning. Can the fruits of the Spirit grow? Can they be more abudant? Yes. This ought to give some food for thought. :)
Richard
Some people claim that this vignette took place in the first apartment. They point out that Exodus 30:6 locates the altar of incense "before the veil that is before the ark of the Testimony" (NKJV), which would indicate that whatever in the Heavenly sanctuary corresponds to the altar of incense must likewise be in the Holy Place, and therefore is involved with Christ's ministry in the first compartment, and not His Final Atonement ministry in the second compartment.
But we must also consider the following Bible passage:
"A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand, the table and the consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant."—Heb. 9:2-4 (NIV)
This text says plainly that the golden altar of incense was in the second apartment with the Ark of the Covenant. How can both Exodus 30:6 and Hebrews 9:4 be true?
Paul, whom we assume wrote Hebrews, knew full well exactly how the furniture of the sanctuary was arranged. It is likely He was taking due note of the way the Ark of the Covenant and the golden altar of incense were originally set up together, as we read in Exodus 40:5: "You shall also set the altar of gold for the incense before the ark of the Testimony" (NKJV). This indicates that the two were associated together at the beginning. The last part of the verse indicates that a screen was set up between them AFTERWARD.
In verse 26, we are told that after the permanent veil was set up to hide the Ark from view, Moses located the golden altar of incense outside of the veil. As long as the veil existed, it served as a boundary that located the altar in the first compartment. The veil was necessary because no sinner, including the earthly high priest who was still sinful, could approach the visible presence of God and live. The prayers of sinners cannot be presented to God without the intercession of the True High Priest, and without the incense which represented Christ's imputed righteousness.
But even then, despite the veil, the golden altar was still "before the Ark," because it was the closest item of furniture to it. In Leviticus 16:18 the altar is said to be "before the Lord".
The golden altar of incense was involved in the yearly Day of Atonement ministry of the high priest, for on that day the priest applied blood to the horns of this altar, as well as to the horns of the Ark (see Lev. 16:18). And without the cloud of incense from the altar passing over the top of the veil and filling the Most Holy Place, the high priest could not enter the Most Holy Place and live, if the Shekinah glory of God should be manifested upon the Mercy Seat.
When Jesus died on the Cross, "the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom." (Mark 15:38) We must recall that the earthly was designed by God to be a shadow of the Heavenly. So this tearing in two of the veil on earth must signify something similar happening in the sanctuary in Heaven. Indeed, at the same time the veil was rent in two on earth, the veil separating the Holy from the Most Holy Place (or whatever in the Heavenly sanctuary corresponds to the veil) was removed, as the following passage indicates:
"But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been DISCLOSED as long as the first tabernacle was still standing." —Heb. 9:7 (NIV; emphasis supplied)
Although the earthly sanctuary was not destroyed until 70 A.D., in the sight of God, when the veil was rent in twain at Christ's death, the earthly sanctuary ceased to stand. After that, the golden altar of incense in the Heavenly sanctuary appeared directly before the Ark of the Covenant where God's throne is, without a screen or veil in between. Now humanity has a High Priest who is sinless, and can enter into the visible presence of God and live.
The golden altar of incense is involved in Jesus' Final Atonement ministry. Jesus must present the prayers of His people who are seeking to receive the blotting out of sins, mingled with the merit of His own righteousness. This is the purpose of His Final Atonement ministry, and it cannot be accomplished without the altar of incense and what it represents.
Ron Lambert
[This message has been edited by Ron Lambert (edited 06-21-2001).]
I have some questions similar to yours, but I am not sure that I see some of the verses you have presented in the same light. We shall get to them, but first I would like to better understand where you want to go with this. You say "This is the purpose of His Final Atonement ministry, and it cannot be accomplished without the altar of incense and what it represents."
Could you explain in some detail what you mean? :)
Thanks, Richard
The New Interpreter's Bible Comentary [1998];
regarding Hebrews 9:4, interprets: "the Golden Alter of Incense [v.4]" traditionally "placed to the rear of the Holy Place near the curtain..."
Patriarchs and Prophets, page 353 says this: "In the offering of incense the priest was brought more directly into the presence of God than in any other act of the daily ministration. As the inner veil of the sanctuary did not extend to the top of the building, the Glory of God, which was manifested above the Mercy Seat, was partially visible from the first apartment."
There is still more at the end of the above paragraph, and the beginning of the next...I think they may even more fully expound on the
matter even more.
It is also interesting to note that there is also a similarity in Christ as the High Priest first going from the Holy Place into the Most Holy Place carring the Censure of incense...Then as the Book of Life is closed, and He [Jesus] leaves the Mercy Seat forever, He throws down the Censure and declares those final words; "he that is holy, let him be holy still..."
Maybe someone else could pick this up, I find it an interesting question.
Ya'll have a great weekend...I probably won't be back until Sunday at the earliest, so a Happy Sabbath to all!
Your brother in Christ.
Richard
Following are a few statements from Ellen G. White that show how she discussed these things, so at least you will be able to see that I am not making up something new. After that, I will establish these same essential points and develop them a little further from Scripture alone.
"The incense, ascending with the prayers of Israel, represents the merits and intercession of Christ, His perfect righteousness, which through faith is imputed to His people, and which can alone make the worship of sinful beings acceptable to God. Before the veil of the most holy place was an altar of perpetual intercession, before the holy, an altar of continual atonement. By blood and by incense God was to be approached--symbols pointing to the great Mediator, through whom sinners may approach Jehovah, and through whom alone mercy and salvation can be granted to the repentant, believing soul." (Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 353)
"We are now living in the great day of atonement. In the typical service, while the high priest was making the atonement for Israel, all were required to afflict their souls by repentance of sin and humiliation before the Lord, lest they be cut off from among the people. In like manner, all who would have their names retained in the book of life should now, in the few remaining days of their probation, afflict their souls before God by sorrow for sin and true repentance. There must be deep, faithful searching of heart." (The Great Controversy, p. 489)
"The work of the investigative judgment and the blotting out of sins is to be accomplished before the second advent of the Lord. Since the dead are to be judged out of the things written in the books, it is impossible that the sins of men should be blotted out until after the judgment at which their cases are to be investigated. But the apostle Peter distinctly states that the sins of believers will be blotted out 'when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; and He shall send Jesus Christ.' Acts 3:19, 20." (The Great Controversy, p. 485)
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The above makes it clear that the incense represents the righteousness of Christ that must be mingled with all our prayers, for them to be acceptable to God. Additionally, there is a special work of prayer on the part of God's people, called for on the Day of Atonement. We must make sure that all our sins are confessed and go beforehand to judgment, so we can be beneficiaries of the "blotting out of sins." I will also touch on what that signifies.
We begin in Scripture with the type:
"For on that day the priest shall make atonement for you, to cleanse you, that you may be clean from all your sins before the Lord….then he shall make atonement for the Holy Sanctuary, and he shall make atonement for the tabernacle of meeting and for the altar, and he shall make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly." Leviticus 16:30, 33 (NKJV)
Notice that this Day of Atonement was to be for the purpose not only of cleansing the sanctuary, but for the purpose of cleansing the people. The object of this cleansing was to make the people clean from all their sins before the Lord. In other words, their sins were to be blotted out. (See Isaiah 44:22)
The following text tells us that the people had a role to play in the Day of Atonement Service. They were to participate by resting from their works, and by afflicting their souls—meaning they were to search their hearts and make sure that every sin was confessed:
"And you shall do no work on that same day, for it is the Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the Lord your God. For any person who is not afflicted in soul on that same day shall be cut off from his people." Leviticus 23:28, 29 (NKJV)
The prayers of the people to rid themselves of anything sinful separating them from God, must be mingled with the incense of Christ's righteousness in order for them to be presentable before God. So closely is the righteousness of Christ identified with the prayers of His people, that in Revelation 5:8 we read of "…golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." (NKJV)
Daniel 8:14 gives us the time prophecy which tells us when the time for the beginning of the Antitypical Day of Atonement came, and it also tells us that there is a sanctuary cleansing that will be involved.
"And he said to me, 'For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed.'" Daniel 8:14 (NKJV)
In the New Testament, on the Day of Pentecost, Peter looked forward to a future blotting out of sins:
"Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before" Acts 3:19, 20 (NKJV)
Note that this blotting out of sins is associated with "times of refreshing…from the presence of the Lord." Scripture tells us that just as the baptism of the Spirit that came upon the disciples at the time of Pentecost was the "former rain," so also there will be a "latter rain" outpouring of the Holy Spirit (see Joel 2:23).
What consequence might there be for the people of God as they receive the final atonement with its blotting out of sins? What special benefit might the latter rain outpouring of the Holy Spirit confer? In ancient Israel, the effect of the "latter rain" was to ripen the crops for the harvest. So also spiritually, the purpose of the latter rain outpouring of the Holy Spirit must be to bring His people to the point where they are ready for the Lord to come.
Now, what might be the nature of the work that the Holy Spirit will do for God's people when they receive the Latter Rain?
When Christians first come to Christ and begin their Christian walk, they receive a kind of "seal" that is administered by the Holy Spirit:
"…do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." Ephesians 4:30 (NKJB)
But Scripture also tells us about a special end-time seal of God that the people of God will receive, as they prove faithful in the test over the mark of the beast (see Revelation 7:2-4). It seems reasonable to conclude that the seal of Ephesians 4:30 is the seal of the former rain ministration of the Holy Spirit, and the seal of Revelation 7:2-4 is the seal of the latter rain ministration of the Holy Spirit.
What are the effects that this might have on the people of God? What changes might it produce in them? A hint is given in Hebrews:
"For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. " Hebrews 10:1, 2 (NKJV)
This suggests that when the believers receive the cleansing and blotting out of sins typified by the yearly Day of Atonement service, there is a change in their consciousness of sins. Let us consider the new covenant promise in its fullness:
"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more. " Hebrews 8:10-12 (NKJV)
What will it mean for this gospel promise of the covenant to be received in its final fullness? Notice the last clause. If God forgets our sins, then can we still remember them?
We also have the promise that Jesus will purge and purify His people:
"But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire And like launderer's soap. He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the Lord An offering in righteousness." Malachi 3:2, 3 (NKJV)
Now, this does not mean that God's people will be given sinless natures at this time. Scripture plainly tells us that our bodies are not changed until the Second Coming (see 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Nor does it necessarily mean that God's people will have amnesia, when they receive the blotting out of sins, they have no more consciousness of sins, and God remembers their sins no more.
Rather, it is the essence of sin itself, the attitude of unbelief toward God, that will be removed, as the people of God become fully and completely converted. While sin leads to transgression of the law, by which sin can be outwardly identified, the inward nature of sin is lack of faith. Thus we have Paul's definition of sin:
"…whatever is not from faith is sin." Romans 14:23 (last part; NKJV)
Paul also said that unbelief was the reason why ancient Israel failed to enter into the covenant promises:
"Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief….Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." Hebrews 4: 6, 11 (KJV)
In the above, the Greek word apeitheia, translated "unbelief" in the KJV and as "disobedience" in other versions, refers to an attitude of the heart, as is apparent when we consult Thayer's Bible Dictionary:
543 apeitheia {ap-i'-thi-ah}
from 545; TDNT - 6:11,818; n f
AV - unbelief 4, disobedient 3; 7
1) obstinacy, obstinate opposition to the divine will
It is unbelief, or lack of faith, that leads to disobedience.
Jesus expressed what His real concern would be when He returns to receive His people. He did not say He would be concerned whether He would find people who were perfect in every respect. Rather, He asked:
"… when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:8 (NKJV)
Our problem presently is that we are not fully converted. Our faith is not perfect. Our hearts are still divided between belief and unbelief. Thus the Psalmist prayed:
"Teach me Your way, O Lord; I will walk in Your truth; Unite my heart to fear Your name." Psalms 86:11 (NKJV)
This is what we need. For our hearts to be united, so that we are whole-hearted, and our faith is untainted by distrust of God. If we have such faith, then we will truly be satisfying the righteous requirement of God. The Law of God is summarized thusly:
"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength." Deuteronomy 6:5 (NKJV)
When the angels and intelligent beings on other worlds see that we former rebels on earth have become true patriots, then they will welcome us into the kingdom of Heaven, confident of our fitness.
The conclusion of these things is simply this: the purpose of Jesus' second apartment, Day of Atonement ministry in the sanctuary in Heaven, is to perfect the faith of His people. In this work, we must cooperate, actively seeking to rid our hearts and lives of every taint of sinful unbelief toward God, cherishing no sinful practice, and refusing no reform He asks of us as His Spirit leads us to discover all the things that may be in the way, hindering our relationship with Him. Like ancient Israel on the Day of Atonement, we must afflict our souls as our High Priest ministers for us. Our earnest prayers must ascend, mingled with the incense of the righteousness of Christ, as He goes about finishing the work in us.
Ron Lambert
There is absolutely nothing preventing any of us now from walking with God as did Enoch, or from being whole-heartedly faithful as was Elijah. But most of us, as a community of believers, do have the problem of incomplete conversion, and lack of whole-hearted faith. We still need to have God "unite" our "heart," as the Psalmist prayed in Psalms 86:11, 12.
Were Paul, or Peter, or James, or the other apostles alive today, I believe they would probably be fully ready to receive the special end-time seal of God.
In other words, the experience of having perfect faith is not something that cannot be obtained prior to the Latter Rain outpouring of the Holy Spirit, which brings to us the benefits of the blotting out of sins.
However, Jesus is now working to perfect the faith of a whole community of believers. The time of the firstfruits is passed. He is looking toward the final harvest. When Jesus has a whole community of believers who are fully converted, whose hearts are united in faith in Him, then the sealing angel can come and do his work, putting the seal of God on the final generation who will be God's faithful witnesses during the final conflict. The blotting out of sins and the Latter Rain outpouring of the Holy Spirit cannot come before this, even though individuals may be ready.
Having sinful bodies is not the problem. Otherwise sin would be God's fault, for not transforming our bodies now.
Nor is it right to say that God's people cannot gain the victory over unbelief until the blotting out of sins has taken place, for that would again imply that unbelief (which is the real essence of sin), is God's fault, because we cannot help but doubt until He gives us something He is withholding now.
We can become fully converted now. The work of sanctification, which is really the work of growing in faith until we are whole-hearted and single-minded in our faith in God, can be completed now.
Bible prophecy indicates that a whole community will not reach the point where their faith is perfected, until the time of the blotting out of sins, and they receive the Latter Rain outpouring of the Spirit (which is given to ripen the grain for the harvest). Prophecy indicates this, because this is the way it will happen, and God knows in advance that it will be so. He knows it will take the special benefit of the Latter Rain to bring this experience to an entire community.
What we need to do is prepare for the sealing, by asking the Lord to continue our conversion. This will require our intelligent and deliberate consent, as we make choices to let go of things that come between the Lord and us. But the transforming power that kindles faith in our hearts is God's.
Ron Lambert
I have never understood that the Latter Rain had to wait until all of God's people were converted. I understand the Latter Rain to be the agent through which many conversions will take place. Also, I understand the Latter Rain began to fall in the past, so would this not would prove that your statement is incorrect?
More importantly I disagree with what I think you are saying about conversion. Let me ask a question to get a better picture. You say "we cannot help but doubt until He gives us something He is withholding now." My brother where do read in the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy that God withholds something we need to keep from doubting Him? Also, it appears that you will give salvation to those that are not "fully converted." You say there is a "problem of incomplete conversion" and "We can become fully converted now. The work of sanctification, which is really the work of growing in faith until we are whole-hearted
and single-minded in our faith in God, can be completed now." It seems as if you allow for a class that are somewhat "converted" that are not whole-hearted Christians. Will you give this class who have not fully surrendered to Jesus, who still have "unbelief" and pride in their heart, eternal life?
I may be misunderstanding what you are saying, but if you could clarify my concerns if I am wrong it will be much appeciated. :)
Richard
I know, various people at various times have made claims that the Latter Rain was falling. No, that was still part of the Former Rain. The Latter Rain is a special benefit that comes from the Blotting Out of Sins during the Judgment of the Living. When the Latter Rain comes, it will be whole orders of magnitude beyond anything we have experienced thus far.
Let me share one of my favorite texts about how God's people will be when they receive the Latter Rain. It is found in Zechariah 12:8: "In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them." (NKJV) This says to me that when the Latter Rain comes, those among us who are shy and timid will become as bold as David, and those who are already bold by nature will become like the Angel of the Lord. That is an encouragement to anyone, I think, who feels they would never have the nerve to stand boldly for truth against great opposition during the final conflict.
I would say that virtually all of us right now are only partially converted. The process of conversion does not take place in a moment, when we first come to the Cross. The process of continuing, ever-deepening conversion is in fact the whole experience of sanctification. This is what sanctification is, becoming more thoroughly converted. God is willing to make every change needed in us, but He requires our informed consent at every step along the way, because love cannot be forced, and for this reason He will not violate our freedom of choice.
The whole problem of the people of Laodicea is not perceiving that they are still not fully converted. That is our problem. We think we are spiritually rich and increased with goods, we think we are very sanctified. But we fail to realize how we have been keeping the gospel principles in the "outer court" of our hearts, and we have not yet acquired the genuine, whole-hearted faith and love (represented by the gold) that we need to have.
Ron Lambert
I appreciate your postings. Much of what you are saying I agree with, but sometimes I don't understand what you mean. One example is about 'conversion'.
When you mentioned that you beleive that christians are only partially converted, and that sanctification is a process where we are to become more and more converted, what do you mean?
By your use of the term 'conversion' do you mean that a lack of full conversion is manifested by a lack of obedience to the commandments of God? If this is your view, how will you explain these statements from SOP:
What is sanctification? It is to give one's self wholly and without reserve - soul, body, and spirit - to God; to deal justly; to love mercy, and walk humbly with God; to know and to do the will of God without regard to self or self-interest; to be heavenly-minded, pure, unselfish, holy, and without spot or stain (OHC 212).
True sanctification is nothing more or less than to love God with all the heart, to walk in His commandments and ordinances blameless (FW 87).
Looking forward to your answer.
Allan F
"True conversion, true sanctification, will be the cause of the change in our views and our feelings toward one another and toward God....We must increase in faith." — Manuscript Releases Volume Four, page 348, paragraph 2.
Notice how in the above, Ellen G. White equates sanctification with conversion, and ties it in with the idea that our faith must increase. Now, if she says our faith must increase, then that must mean we still have some unbelief. And since "whatsover is not of faith is sin," (Romans 14:23) then she is implying that we still have sin in our hearts, since she says our faith must increase.
Now consider these next three SOP statements, remembering that Ellen G. White equated sanctification with conversion:
"Let us be growing Christians. We are not to stand still. We are to be in advance today of what we were yesterday; every day learning to be more trustful, more fully relying upon Jesus. Thus we are to grow up. You do not at one bound reach perfection; sanctification is the work of a lifetime." — Selected Messages Book 3, page 193, paragraph 1.
"Our sanctification is God's object in all His dealing with us." — Selected Messages Book 3, page 202, paragraph 2.
"Sanctification is not a work of a day or a year, but of a lifetime. Without continual efforts and constant activity, there can be no advancement in the divine life, no attainment of the victor's crown. We are doing up work for the judgment, and it is unsafe to work in our own wisdom and trust to our own judgment." — Testimonies for the Church Volume Three, page 325, paragraph 2.
Now here are some SOP statements where Ellen G. White explicitly is talking about our continuing need for conversion:
"As a people we are to be reconverted, our lives sanctified to declare the truth as it is in Jesus." — Testimonies for the Church Volume Nine, page 63, paragraph 1.
"We need now to be reconverted, that angels of God may cooperate with us, making a sacred impression upon the minds of those for whom we labor." — Selected Messages Book 1, page 167, paragraph 4.
"There is no such thing as an instantaneous sanctification. It is an every-day work. Says Paul, 'I die daily' (1 Cor. 15:31). He received a CONVERSION DAILY to God. As the truth and Spirit of God revealed to him the defects in his character, he put away his wrong, died to self, and cleansed himself 'from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God' (2 Cor. 7:1)." — The Upward Look, page 231, paragraph 3 (caps supplied for emphasis).
The following statement refers to what Jesus can do when He has a community of people who are fully consecrated:
"Why, the Lord can do more in one hour than we can do in a whole lifetime, and when He sees that His people are fully consecrated, let me tell you, a great work will be done in a short time, and the message of truth is to be carried into the dark places of the earth, where it has never been proclaimed." — Manuscript Releases Volume Five, pages 347-8.
Ron Lambert
You have raised some very important points, some of which are a little confusing to me.
Can you explain to me your beliefs about the about the concept of primitive godliness? When does it begin? What are the qualifying marks?
Sincerely
Dugald
"It is only as the law of God is restored to its rightful position that there can be a revival of primitive faith and godliness among His professed people. 'Thus saith the Lord, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls.' Jeremiah 6:16." — The Great Controversy, page 478, paragraph 3.
Notice in the above Ellen G. White refers to "primitive faith and godliness."
Here is another passage:
"Notwithstanding the widespread declension of faith and piety, there are true followers of Christ in these churches. Before the final visitation of God's judgments upon the earth there will be among the people of the Lord such a revival of primitive godliness as has not been witnessed since apostolic times. The Spirit and power of God will be poured out upon His children. At that time many will separate themselves from those churches in which the love of this world has supplanted love for God and His word. Many, both of ministers and people, will gladly accept those great truths which God has caused to be proclaimed at this time to prepare a people for the Lord's second coming." — The Great Controversy, page 464, paragraph 1.
Notice here how Ellen G. White associates this time of revival of primitive godliness with the Spirit and Power of God being poured out, an obvious reference to the Latter Rain. It is also interesting that in the first quote, Ellen G. White said that this true spiritual revival cannot come about until the Law of God is restored to its rightful position.
Basically, the terms "primitive godliness" "reconversion" "entire consecration" and the like are all talking about the same thing. Whole-hearted faith, where our heart is undivided and we have fully turned from unbelief to faith in God. This requires a work of advancing conversion, until our conversion is complete.
Ron Lambert
But what you say here, I don't fully agree with: "Now, if she says our faith must increase, then that must mean we still have some unbelief. And since "whatsoever is not of faith is sin," (Romans 14:23) then she is implying that we still have sin in our hearts, since she says our faith must increase."
I will try to explain why I see it differently by using two quotes from Ellen G. White.
A good illustration of sanctification is the parable of the seed. It says that there is "first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear". How shall we understand this parable about christian growth?
Since we are in the sanctuary thread, I want to remind us of the 7-branched candle stick of gold in the holy place. On it, was written the same parable as Jesus taught, just with a different plant. The almond plant.
While the laver in the courtyard symbolizes cleansing from sin, the candle stick symbolizes the christian life as a growing process.
Let us look how the SOP understood this parable: "He who gave this parable created the tiny seed, gave it its vital properties, and ordained the laws that govern its growth. And the truths which the parable teaches were made a living reality in His own life. In both His physical and His spiritual nature He followed the divine order of growth illustrated by the plant, as He wishes all youth to do. Although He was the Majesty of heaven, The King of glory, He became a babe in Bethlehem, and for a time represented the helpless infant in its mother's care. In childhood He did the works of an obedient child. He spoke and acted with the wisdom of a child and not of a man, honouring His parents and carrying out their wishes in helpful ways, according to the ability of a child. But at every stage of his development He was perfect, with the simple natural grace of a sinless life."
"The germination of the seed represents the beginning of the spiritual life, and the development of the plant is a beautiful figure of christian growth. As in nature, so in grace; there can be no life without growth. The plant must either grow or die. As its growth is silent and imperceptible, but continous, so is the development of the Christian life. At every stage of development our life may be perfect; yet if God's purpose for us is fulfilled, there will be continual advancement. Sanctification is the work of a lifetime. As our opportunities multiply, our experience will enlarge, and our knowledge increase. We shall become strong to bear responsibility, and our maturity will be in proportion to our privileges" (COL 62, 63, 82).
In connection with these two statements, let us look again to see what sanctification really is:
"Sanctification is a state of holiness, without and within, being holy and without reserve the Lord's, not in form, but in truth. Every impurity of thought, every lustful passion, seperates the soul from God; for he can never put his robe of righteousness upon a sinner, to hide his deformity" (OHC 214).
"Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. We know not one day how strong will be our conflict the next. So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point we can reach and say. I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience" (AA 560, 561).
Sincerely
Allan F
While we are awaiting Brother Ron's reply, let us look at the laver that was in the outer court for a minute. The priests were to wash in the laver prior to entering the Holy Place or before ministering at the altar in the courtyard. Exodus 40:11,12. "And thou shalt anoint the laver and his foot, and sanctify it. And thou shalt bring Aaron and his sons unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and wash them with water."
"The glory of God hallowed the sanctuary, and for this reason the priests never entered the place sanctified by God's presence with shoes upon their feet. Particles of dust might cleave to them, which would desecrate the holy place; therefore the priests were required to leave their shoes in the court before entering the sanctuary. In the court, beside the door of the tabernacle, stood a brazen laver, wherein the priests washed their hands and their feet before entering the tabernacle, that all impurity might be removed. All who officiated in the sanctuary were required of God to make special preparation before entering the place where His glory was revealed."
"Here was the commandment of the great and mighty God. There was to be nothing slack and untidy about those who appeared before him, when they should come into his holy presence. And what was this for? What was the object of all this carefulness? Was it merely to recommend the people to God? Was it merely to gain his approbation? The reason that was given me was this: that a right impression might be made upon the people. If those who ministered in the sacred office should fail to manifest care and reverence for God in their apparel and their deportment, the people would lose their awe and reverence for God and his sacred service. If the priests showed great reverence for God, by being very careful and very particular as they came into his presence, it gave the people an exalted idea of God and his requirements. It showed them that God was holy, that his work was sacred, and that everything in connection with the work of God must be holy; that it must be free from everything like impurity and uncleanliness; and that all defilement must be put away from those that approach nigh to God. From the light that has been given me, there has been a carelessness in this respect. I might speak of it, as Paul presents it. It is carried out in will-worship and neglecting of the body. But this voluntary humility, this will-worship and neglecting of the body, is not the humility that savors of Heaven. That humility that savors of Heaven will be particular to have the person, and actions, and apparel, of all who preach the holy truth of God, right, and perfectly proper, so that every item connected with us will recommend our holy religion. The very dress will be a recommendation of the truth to unbelievers. It will be a sermon in itself."
"The Lord demands uprightness in the smallest as well as the largest matters. Those who are accepted at last as members of the heavenly court, will be men and women who here on earth have sought to carry out the Lord's will in every particular, who had sought to put the impress of heaven upon their earthly labors. In order that the earthly tabernacle might represent the heavenly, it must be perfect in all its parts, and it must be in the smallest detail like the pattern in the heavens. So it is with the characters of those who are finally accepted in the sight of heaven."
Jesus wants not only the hearts of the ministers to be pure, but ours also. We have been promised a "new heart". :) See Eze. 33: 26.
Richard
I have recently read two books that may be of help to you and your friend. The first is called "the Sanctuary Service" by M.L.Andreasen. It is copyrighted first in 1937, so it is a fairly old book. The other is a recent book by Roy Gane, a Prof. at Andrews. It is called "Alter Call". This book is geared up I think more toward people who don't have a background in Adventism. This book would be a good introduction to the sanctuary doctrine.
They are both available at your local ABC. If you have difficulty getting them, E-mail me at theoc@gorge.net and I will send them to you.
Hope this helps.
Has anyone here read the book "Path to the Throne of God" by Sarah Peck? I have seen it recommended as a very good study on the Sanctuary also, but know nothing about it.
I am glad to see that you want to do a study in the sanctuary with this person.
I will highly recommend the book written by Sarah Peck. It is considered to be one of the best books dealing with the sanctuary topic. I also know the book of M.L Andreasen, but I prefer the first one. It is quite systematic in structure, but interesting, even though it is an old book. There are pictures/drawings of the different furnitures, except for an overview of the whole sanctuary, which I miss.
I am not sure where to buy this book. Maybe someone can help you.
May God bless your study :)
Allan F
Thanks for the info. I know where I can buy it. I found it for sale this morning on a tagnet site.
On the Day of Atonement, after the High Priest had officiated the offering for himself and, the congregation of the people; he then went into the Holy Place with a censor, which, was to [as I understand it] sort of place a cloud between the vail. Now, Dr. Andreasen suggests that the vail between the Holy and Holy of Holies was later in the service of the cleansing, parted for activity in both the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place...Does anyone have a take on this?
I think that if we follow the light we have from the inspired record we shall find an answer to the most important question that we must ask. "What must I do to be saved?" When we have come into unity on the foundation of the gospel, then it will enable us to build upon that foundation to better understand the work of our high priest in the Most Holy Place during he Day of Atonement.
As I understand the censor, it was to allow for the incense to be burned. The incense is sybolic of the righteousness of Christ which ascends to our heavenly Father with our prayers. The incense is in this sense is a Shield, a Rock, a Fortress that we may find protection in. The rightesouness of Christ is our everything. It is this that is imputed and imparted to the believing soul that surrenders all to Christ. Quite a study. :)
While there is much wisdom in the writing's of man, there is much error mingled in with the truth. In the study of the Hebrew Sanctuary it would be good to refrain from the writings of men until a thorough study has been made of the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy. It will prove to be a great blessing. Just a suggestion. :)
Richard
To be honest, I find nothing in either the Bible, or SOP which would affirm or deny this thought...Perhaps you have another consideration you could share?
Your brother in Christ.
Revelation 4:5; 8:3; 11:19; and SR 377.1.
Thank you for your comments.
Again, your brother in Christ.
I would like to begin a study of the sanctuary and compare and decode its message with the two other great revelations of God, Jesus Christ and the Bible. I am sure that many of you have knowledge in this topic and have received blessings from studying it.
If it is ok I would like to go through the sanctuary and stop at every of the seven main furnitures that we find in the courtyard, the holy and most holy place.
In our attempts to understand the meanings of the symbols, let us look for answers in God's revelation through Jesus Christ, The Bible and the nature.
If there are no comments to this, I will soon go on and post my next post on this topic.
"Jesus said unto him, I am the way, the truth and the life. No man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)
"Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?" (Psalm 77:13)
Allan F
Richard
I beleive that through the sanctuary system God reveals the plan of salvation, which is the most important message ever given. In each item in the sanctuary we may find Gods love expressed to us, and we will also seek to understand how we can receive the blessings from each of them.
The sanctuary was placed in the middle of the camp. It was protected by God and surrounded by His people. In this way it was the centre of their attention.
Likewise, today, the lessons derived from the sanctuary should be the centre of Gods people. There our Lord wants us to have our focus. Unfortunately, this is not the situation today. Today, among the christianity, there are not one sanctuary, and one message, but many of the different "tribes of Israel" have set up their own sanctuaries, sending out false messages. Other have thrown out some of the furnitures of the true one.
Maybe we can take time to have a look into some of the false tabernacles after we have studied and got to know the true sanctary and its message.
The ALTAR
When one enters the sanctuary, the altar is the first item that one sees. Unlike many of the other items in the sanctuary, the altar was well known to the israelites. On the altar people had been offering animals usually a lamb) for hundreds of years.
So when the people found the altar in the sanctuary, it was not something unknown to them. On the other hand, the settings were new to them. We may ask ourselves some questions regarding this fact:
What does it symbolize?
In what way does it symbolize Gods work?
What role do humans have in that which takes place at the altar?
When we look for the meaning of what the altar symbolizes, let us seek to find answers from the mouth of Jesus, or from the rest of the Bible.
Allan F
This promise became the center of the worship of Gods children. Through faith in this free, unexpected gift, a door was opened to an eternal future. It made people lift their eyes and look beyond this world, to a God who wants us in heaven so much that he even would take the risk of the eternal life of his only son in order to save us.
The only person who is called "The lamb" in the Bible, is Jesus Christ:
"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29).
Jesus is the true lamb: "He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisements of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed... He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth" (Isa 53:5,7).
Therefore, "worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing."
Allan F
Richard
At the altar, there are two possibilities: Without Jesus, our walk through the sanctuary (our christian experience) would end at the very beginning, at the altar. Without the dead of Jesus, we would ourselves have to carry our sins, and thus be placed on the altar, and the gates to heaven would be for ever closed for our sinful race. But the glory of heaven was not attractive to Jesus as long as there was one sheep (read: planet) suffering in sin and sickness. Therefore Jesus came to our world, lived a perfect life and died for the sins of the world, so that we don't have to die the second, eternal death.
Therefore, at the beginning of the way through the sanctuary, we realize that a very high price has been paid for us, that we may receive eternal life. It relies totally on Gods love and grace. We could not have commanded God to save us.
The altar doesn't only symbolize what Jesus did for us, 2000 years ago. I also see a personal experience involved at the altar.
How may we receive the blessings from the altar? I look forward to thoughts and comments.
Allan F
Richard
God knows that if man shall turn from his evil ways, it is the "goodness of God (that) leadeth to repentance" (Rom 2:4).
Therefore it is important to get to know God, his character. This will lead men to the altar in sorrow for the sins that have caused the death of Jesus.
Jesus gave us the key (his blood). Now, we must use it to open the door of forgiveness that leads to eternal life. This means confession of sin to the ones being hurt by me and to their Creator. This is fair, but not always easy to do.
When the person laid his hands on the head of the animal at the altar, he showed by this action that he didn't want to keep his particular sin. He wants it to be taken away both from the books of heaven and from his own heart.
This is the prayer God wants to answer the most. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1Jn 1:9).
(In our study, let us try to understand how God handles the sin problem. Who is involved, how does sin come into the courtyard and the sanctuary, and how does it get out at last? Maybe we through this can learn some important lessons about God and His character.)
Allan F
Regarding the thought of how God addresses the sin problem, the alter, with all of its offerings and sacrifices did not *cleanse* the people from their sins...It did, however, provide a means where the children of Israel might understand -- and even teach other nations that although God hates sin, He loves the sinner.
Your brother in Christ.
I agree with you that the altar is the place in the sanctuary that most clearly tells us that God loves us, every one, and also how much He was willing to do in order to save you and me.
But he still hates sin. I think we can learn an important lesson from just this fact. I feel that many people today have problems to seperate condemnation of a particular sin from a condemnation of the sinner. It is strongly beleived by many (also christians) that in order to accept and love a sinner, you must accept his sin (take for instance homosexuality which the Bible condemns).
This kind of love is not God's love. He wants to seperate sin from the sinner and He is the only one who can do that. Neither can Allah, Buddha, nor any other God.
But God says: "Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye" (Eze 18:31,32).
Allan F
The LAVER
The laver was the second main furniture which was placed in the courtyard. The laver was filled with water. What was the water for? It was not for drinking, but for cleansing. Before the priests went into the tabernacle, they should wash their hands and feet.
What may the laver symbolize? Is there any text in the Bible that talk about a cleansing symbolized by cleansing by water?
Yes. In Ezek. 36:25-27 we read: "Then I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgements and do them."
This is what takes place at the laver. This was also what Jesus had in mind when he said to Nicodemus: "Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (Jn 3:5).
Paul described it as the "washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost, which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus christ our saviour" (Tit 3:5,6).
This is also symbolized in the baptism, where we rise into a new life. In fact the baptism is the strongest symbol (maybe the Sabbath) of creation. The earth that we live on today, came into existence by a word of God and rose out of the water. It really resembles the baptism. No wonder that Satan wanted to change the form of baptism. He has also been succesful in changing the creation story too.
The results from a new birth is quite visible, even though we cannot see the work that the Spirit do. The fruit is: "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance" (Gal 5:22,23).
This is the kind of people God want to inhabitate the new earth with. The courtyard experience means to come back to Gods original plan in truth and in spirit. By this we are standing just before God. Let us therefore take faith and walk into the sanctuary, "having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water" (Heb 10:22,23).
Allan F
The courtyard symbolizes Jesus' activity on the earth. He died and rose from the grave, symbolized by the altar and the laver (Rom ch. 6). At the altar He offers us forgiveness and in this way He makes up for the past. At the laver He does something with our present condition, by creating a new heart. But this is not all. He is now in heaven to be our high priest and has promised to guide and help us in the future christian life.
While the symbols in the courtyard show us how we may receive eternal life, the holy place shows us how this life is.
In other words, we may say that in the court yard we are born into eternal life. The holy place is where this new life is to be lived. Here we grow in grace.
There were 3 main furnitures in the holy place: The table of shewbread, the altar of inscense and the seven branched candle stick.
To go from the courtyard into the tabernacle makes a radical change. Imagine that you are going from the altar where you have confessed your sins and killed an innocent lamb and into the special atmosphere in the tabernacle.
Inside the holy place there is a peaceful silence. The walls are covered by gold, and they reflect the light from the candle stick. From the most holy place the light which rests over the ark of the covenant sends in a wonderful light. What a sight for the eye!
But God has also made preparations for other senses. A sweet aroma of inscense fills the tabernacle, and the smell of the shewbread almost makes you hungry.
The burdens which were put off at the altar are now replaced with peace and happiness.
Let us begin our study with THE TABLE WITH THE SHEWBREAD
"And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger" (Jn. 7:35).
"Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word of God" (Luk. 4:4).
As physical food strengthen our body and help us to stay healthy, spiritual food will strengthen our soul. We are what we eat, some says. That's true both in the physical and spiritual life. In my short experience (not passed 30 yet) I have found that as the physical breakfast is the most important meal during the day, in the same way it is important to begin the day with a good spiritual breakfast.
To go a little further with the parallell we can say that as bread is the most important food item (at least where I live), our main spiritual food item should be "the bread of life", a study of the life of Christ. I don't think it was pure chance that Jesus, "the bread of life" was born in a manger (where the food for the animals was laid) in a town called Betlehem, which in hebrew means "the bread basket". I beleive God gave us an important lesson by doing this.
When we read the Bible it would be good to "chew" it well. Take time to enjoy it and beleive in it, because when the word was preached to the Israelites it "didn't profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it" (Heb. 4:2). To be surrounded by food doesn't help anyone. Only when we eat the food it will do its work.
Jesus knew this. Therefore he ate every word that came from the mouth of God. But his purpose for eating was not just because he wanted to be healthy and because it tasted good (some times it didn't taste good at all). He strengthened himself by Gods food because He had some important work to do. He lived for the purpose of rescuing others. For this important work He needed the very best "food".
Allan F
As, amoung other things, a smoker for more than fourty years; God through His Holy Spirit convicted and cleansed me from this habit [and others as well]...Because God "loves the sinner" but "hates the sin", I can clearly see that this very principle is at work in my life today...God has in fact "forgiven" and "cleansed" my sin; He cannot [with I think the exception of a miricle] take away the "consequences" of my sins...My point being, that there seems to be two -- widening ditches in the "Principles of Righteousness". On the one side there is "Grace" to an extreme; and to the other there is "Law" to an extreme.
Which is it? Grace -- Law? Illistration or Substitution? Or a combination of all in so perfectly balanced manner that finite man will never throughout eternity be able to fully understand it's [the story of redemption] meaning...
I think we all agree that God "hates sin"! And, He "loves the sinner"! God's "law" has been broken -- and yet death as a means to an end seems to "judicial" or "forensic" to many so we "wrap" it up in "pretty" dressing and try to sell it to one another as "grace". On-the-other hand; we are at "penalty" to the Law...are we not? Therefore, because we have "broken the rules" of the "Big Boss"; someone has to pay...and, because Jesus "loves us so much", God the Father must place His Son in our place and "kill Him" in our stead...
So, I ask you dear brother's, which is it? Or, is there, as in Ps. 85:10; a meeting of both "justice" and "mercy" at the cross? And, in what way was this presented to the children of Israel in the "sand-box model"?
Sincerly your brother in Christ.
"When we ask God of forgiveness of a particular sin (symbolized by what happened at the altar) God takes away that sin from the books of heaven and from our heart. The latter is symbolized by..."
I wish to challenge this concept. The "sins" of the people, individually or corporately were never taken "away"...At least in the earthly sanctuary. [Isa. 1:11; 56:7; Jer. 6:20; Eze. 43:18; Amos 5:22;
Heb. 10:7 (at: Ps. 40:6,7); Heb. 10:16 (at: Jer. 31:33; and finally Heb. 10:17 (at:
Jer. 31:34...]
The "washing of hands" at the Laver symbolized the "cleansing of the Priest" prior to his entry into the temple...[Ex. 30:17-21] There is nolo contendre here. Or in any further aspect of this presentation.
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In the following paragraph, however, I would challenge.
"As we now walk into the tabernacle and the holy place, let us try to sumarize what took place out in the courtyard. The courtyard symbolizes Jesus' activity on the earth. He died and rose from the grave, symbolized by the altar and the laver (Rom ch. 6). At the altar He offers us forgiveness and in this way He makes up for the past. At the laver He does something with our present condition by creating a new heart. But this is not all. He is now in heaven to be our high priest and has promised to guide and help us in the future christian life."
By-virtue-of library conditions, I will only make a brief statement with the following two (2) statements: DA, pp. 589,590; and, 3SP, pp. 20-23...
My contention is this. Although the Life of Christ, on this earth was represented in the Outer Couryard; it appears by Mrs. White's writings that it additionally represented the years leading up to the Life of Christ [OT].
As well put in your next statement, "while the symbolism represented in the Courtyard show us how we may receive eternal life; the holy place shows us how this life is." It is my belief that the outer court yard, then, made two representations: [1] it pointed the eyes of Israel to a coming saviour; [2] it also opened the light of the First Angel's Message which began at Pentecost...This is not in any way contrary to the teachings of the early pioneers of our church nor of the church today...I'm sure that there will be a great deal of dis-agreement regarding this...I am, however, prepared to show evidence(s) of this position if anyone is really interested.
Regarding the three main pieces of furniture in the Holy Place, it will be a pleasure to get to these also; perhaps in their time...
Sincerely your brother in Christ.
Thank you for the comments. Just feel free to do ask question, but the more comments and questions I get in every post, the longer my answers will be...
But together we want to find the main message and the meaning of the items that we find in the sanctuary.
Before I go on I want to say, that in our effort to find the true meaning of the symbols, we must first go to our real world and ask ourselves what is the function of the particular symbol. I have found this very useful in my study of this topic. Next we must look for texts in the Bible that explain the meaning of the particular symbol (eg. the lamb = Jesus: Jn. 1:29).
In this way we will be able to put the pieces together. By the way, a study in the sanctuary resembles a study in the books of Daniel and revelation which also have many symbols.
Now to your comments:
- It is evident from the symbolism at the altar and from the first chapters in leviticus that at the altar the israelite received forgiveness from his sin, that means there was an atonement. By this, he was no longer carrying his own sin. Jesus, the true lamb is the sin bearer (Jn. 1:29). The sin does no longer stands against us in the records of heaven.
Of course did not the blood of the lamb take away any sin, but this pointed to Jesus as the one who is the only one who can give us forgiveness. Remember that the sanctuary only served as a copy of the true, heavenly one. The real sanctuary service has been going on for 2000 years now. This, many christians have not known.
We must not get confused here. Adam, Noah, David and Isaiah did all receive forgiveness for their sins. Jesus died for every one of them. But there was one time in the history that he did that. Strict legally, Adam had to wait ca. 5000 years before he was truly forgiven by the blood of Jesus for his sin in Eden.
Total atonement for our sins only occurs at the day of aytonement, "For on that day shall the priest make atonment for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the Lord." Why it is so, we will discuss when we begin the study of the most holy place.
But at the altar we receive forgiveness and we do no longer carry our confessed sins. Jesus has taken them away.
Some of the bible vesers that you refer to reveal another important fact. Among others you mentions Jer 6:20 were we read: "Your burnt offerings are not acceptable, nor your sacrifices sweet unto me." Why?
Let us read Hosea 6:6: "For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings."
God does not only free us from the condemnation of sin, but also from its power. The offerings were not to the honour of God because they would not allow God to change their hearts.
- I am sorry that I had problem to understand your comments on my explanation of the laver.
"There is nolo contendre here. Or in any further aspect of this presentation."
What does this "nolo contendre" expression mean?
- That the courtyard also symbolizes the years up to Christ is an interesting thought. But I have problem to see it clearly, right now. Maybe you can help me?
- You also mentioned that the courtyard may symbolize "the opening of the light of the first angels message". It would be interesting to get this explained a little more. I am looking forward to it :)
Sorry for the length of this post. I will try to write shorter answers next time...
Allan F
The 12 bread that were placed on the table every sabbath, were to remind the priest and the people about Gods love and mercy. Both in our spiritual and physical life we are dependent upon Gods power. As He gives us spiritual life through his Word, his only begotten son, we are also totally dependent upon him in receiving physical life. He makes the seed grow, the sun shining, and in many unknown ways he protects us from different dangers.
The israelites were in a special way reminded upon their dependence of God during their journey in the wilderness, when God sent supernatural food.
God cares for his children in every aspect, and want to give all men "life, and that they might have it more abundantly" (Jn 10:10).
There were 12 cakes on the table. That symbolized one for every of the 12 tribes of Israel. God doesn't make difference between people. He wants all people to receive what they need. God wants his word to be spread to all his church, and then He wants his church to take it to the whole world. For long times only priests had access to Gods word. That was not Gods intention. Gods word is for all people.
Further, it is interesting to know that the bread consisted of these ingredients: grain, oil and salt. Is there not a symbolism in this? In the Bible these items have a special meaning (Jn 12:24; Matt 13:18-23; Zech 4:2-6).
When Jesus gave spiritual bread to the people, he put all the ingredients into it. But the pharisees did not do that. They presented the word without oil (The Holy Spirit) and salt (the right. of Christ). Of this reason their message became dry and tasteless. Of course the Israelites were undernoursihed!
But Jesus was himself the bread of life and presented his message with all the ingredients, so that the people would have the oportunity to receive all the essential ingredients they needed.
How do we present the Word of God? Do we put all the ingredients into it, or do we present a dry and tasteless testimony to the world?
May God help us to give a whole message to the world.
Allan F
Jesus said: "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven: but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.... I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.... Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth may flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me." Jesus explained what He meant by eating His flesh and drinking His blood. He meant that His disciples were to partake of His Word. He said, "It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
Richard
The CANDLESTICK
In the tabernacle, there was also a seven branched candlestick, made of pure gold. On top of every arm there was a lamp, filled with olive oil.
What does all this symbolize?
Let us go to the Bible and find texts that talk about what light symbolizes:
1) "I am the light of the world", Jesus said (Jn 8:12). As the sun came on the fourth day in the week of creation, so did Jesus come to our world after four thousand years with sin. The sun of righteousness came to the earth in its darkest period of time (DA p.x?). Satan had done everything in the book to degrade the human race. But Jesus came for totally other purposes. He came to save the world. Not just by dying on the cross, but also by showing men how God is. "In him was life; and the life was the light of men" (Jn 1:4). And it is our privilege to be in the light. "He that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life" (Jn 8:12). The life of christ and the life that resembles his life is what lightens up the world today.
Therefore Jesus said:
2)"Ye are the light of the world. Let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father in heaven." This is the main purpose of being light. "The fruit of the light consists in all GOODNESS, RIGHTEOUSNESS and TRUTH (Eph 5:9).
In Rev. ch. 1 we are told that the candlesticks symbolized the church. And the church today consists of you and me. And it is our purpose and privilege to light up a spiritually dark world. But in order to be light we need both oil (the holy spirit) and someone who have the spark to give light to the candlestick (the priest = Jesus).
- We do not have the light in ourselves.
This is the first important lesson to learn from this symbol.
- The second lesson which I find important is this: It is not living for itself. A candlestick is totally dedicated for the purpose of giving light to others.
- The third important lesson: The only reason for having a candlestick is because it shall give light. In other words, the only purpose for Gods church is to lighten up the world (see parable in Matt 25:1-13). If it fails to do this, God can not use it. That is why God gives this message to the church in Ephesus: "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent" (Rev 2:5).
The candlestick was made of ca. 35 kg pure gold and where probably the most valuable item in the sanctuary. Today its value would have been about 280.000 USD (taken the gold prices of today in account).
Gods church, you and me, are extremely valuable in the eyes of the Lord. He has an everlasting love toward us and has bought us with an infinite price, by sending the light of the world to the earth that we may have the possibility to also become lights in this world.
The candle stick is in a way the opposite symbol to the table of shewbread. We are not only to study the Bible and receive the blessings from the Lord. We do also have a work to do. We are to be his witnesses by how we are, what we do and through our words. This will in its turn strengthen our faith and our walk with Jesus.
"He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him" (1Jn 2:10).
Allan F
And the oil used in the lampstand represents the source of the light. We see a reference to oil in the parable of the ten virgins. It is that which, we as a people have been counseled to buy of Jesus. It is called "eye salve" also. Is not the oil a representation of the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit. This is our need and His promise!
Richard
The Altar of Incense
The third main furniture in the holy place was the altar of incense. The altar was covered by gold and it was the item closest to the most holy place.
What does this item symbolize?
Let us first seek to find the meaning of the incense. In Rev 5:8 and 8:3 we find incense used as symbol of prayer. Let us read the two verses:
"And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints."
Revelation 5:8
"And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne."
Revelation 8:3
In Rev 5:8 incense symbolizes the prayers of Gods people. David says in Psalm 141: "Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense".
Incense is assosiated with worship. In ancient times when the early christian church was persecuted, many of the captured christians were forced to choose between either to lay incense in front of the heathen idols or to die in the faith of God (Jahve) as their only God. What a test for Gods people! There was no doubt about what this act symbolized, and many refused to worship these idols, with fatal results.
The last thing many of these people saw in this life were these false gods. But when they open their eyes at the second coming, they will have the privilege to look into the eyes of the only true God and saviour. Then they will receive the reward.
Prayer lifts us up to a heavenly atmosphere. The altar of incense was placed as near as possible to the most holy place, the throne of God. Through prayer we come very near to God. He listens to us and wants to do the very best for us:
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?" (Matt 7:7-11).
In Rev 8:3 we see another aspect of prayer. There, incense is added to the prayer of the saints. This may be understood as symbolic of the ministration of Christ for His people (see Rom 8:26; Heb 7:25). Christ, as intercessor, mingles His merits with the prayers of the saints, which are thereby made acceptable with God.
Through prayer we receive the vital power from God. If we begin the day by kneeling before the ruler of the universe, we may stand honestly and frank before whoever we may meet during the day.
Allan F
Richard
- As it was expressed in another topic here on TRO, the main symbols of the sanctuary seem to have a double meaning. First, they show Gods work in the plan of salvation. Secondly they also show our part in this.
Take for instance the altar. The altar symbolize the death of Jesus, "the lamb of God". By His death he has provided forgiveness. This is His part. But the altar also symbolize our part, to give our sins to Jesus and receive forgiveness through accepting Him as saviour and confession of our sins.
The next step is the laver were we are renewed in our mind and heart by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit, symbolized by the water has the ability to cleanse, but there must be somebody to cleanse.
Through the sanctuary we see this double meaning and the close cooperation between God and His children. We need to walk through the sanctuary in faith and have trust in the plans God has for us.
What takes place in the sanctuary is all of grace. Through the symbols we see so clear how miserable we are without divine help. We need God in order to be forgiven, cleansed, receive physical and spiritual strength, in order to be lights and communicate with God. Who can say that the OT teach salvation by works? Yes, salvation from sin is by works. Gods works for us and in us.
- Briefly, we can say that in the courtyard we are told how to receive eternal life, or how to enter into the covenant with God. The holy place shows us how to live the christian life and how to stay in the covenant and grow as christians. Usually we call the first 'justification' and the latter 'sanctification'. What is needed in order to enter the tabernacle, is the same that is required in order to enter heaven: Forgiveness and cleansing. Even the thief on the cross experienced this. He was truly forgiven and truly cleansed. This was all that was required of him. But of course if he had survived the cross he would have had to stay in the covenant (sanctification) in order to be in a saving relationship with his saviour.
- As the laver, which symbolize cleansing from sin, stood outside of the tabernacle, we must be cleansed before we enter the tabernacle (sanctification). The laver is the only place for cleansing. The holy place (sanctification) is the place for growing. And before we can grow, we must be born. Born of water and of the spirit. The love we receive from God which is "the fulfilling of the law" (Rom 13:10), must be created in us before we can enter the tabernacle.
- The items in the holy place symbolize how to grow and stand firm in the covenant.
The table of shewbread symbolizes that God communicates with us trough His word. At the altar of incense we communicate back to God through prayer. The third item, the candle stick symbolizes us, communicating light to the world.
We also see the activity of the Godhead through these items. We pray: "our Father in heaven"; Jesus is the "bread of life" and he mingles his righteousness with our prayers, and The Holy Spirit (oil) makes it possible for us to be lights for others, etc. In all this we see the cooperation between both the Father, The Son and the Spirit and also cooperation between God and man.
Allan F
You said:
- As the laver, which symbolize cleansing from sin, stood outside of the tabernacle, we must be cleansed before we enter the tabernacle (sanctification). The laver is the only place for cleansing. The holy place (sanctification) is the place for growing. And before we can grow, we must be born. Born of water and of the spirit. The love we receive from God which is "the fulfilling of the law" (Rom 13:10), must be created in us before we can enter the tabernacle.
================
What you said made me think of Isaiah and the sanctuary. Wasn't the coals from off the altar a thing used for cleansing too though? Here's the Spirit of Prophecy quotation Im thinking of:
Gospel Workers page 22
Chapter Title: Called With a Holy Calling
"As God's ministers look by faith into the holy of holies, and see the work of our great High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary, they realize that they are men of unclean lips, men whose tongues have often spoken vanity. Well may they despair as they contrast their own unworthiness with the perfection of Christ.
"With contrition of heart, feeling wholly unworthy and unfit for their great work, they cry,"I am undone." But if, like Isaiah, they humble their hearts before God, the work done for the prophet will be performed for them. Their lips will be touched with a live coal from off the altar, and they will lose sight of self in a sense of the greatness and power of God and His readiness to help them. They will realize the sacredness of the work entrusted to them, and will be led to abhor everything that would cause them to dishonor Him who has sent them forth with His message."
This is a place that has always made me wonder about the idea of having to be cleansed before entering the sanctuary. It almost makes me think that people really arent "clean" and that its more the realization of our own uncleanness that prepares us to receive the humility of heart which would enable God to help us get rid of self altogether, which would then prepare us for ministry, or to be a light to the world.
I wonder if this has any significance? or am I just misunderstanding? Im thinking that it would be important to realize this (if it is true, that is), because if we dont, then we will go around believing ourselves to be cleansed when maybe we are not? and lead us to think more highly of ourselves than we should?
It seems like the two main thoughts I get from this quotation are that only by knowing whats in the most holy place, can we really see and know the total perfection of Christ, and thereby realize how we dont measure up to that perfection. We realize how unclean we are. And the other idea I get from it is that it is then that we realize our complete inability to cleanse ourselves of sin and then we see though how God has all the power to do it and the willingness to do it.
Maybe you were just talking about the Holy Place though, I couldnt bring myself to read through all the 7 pages on this subject, so I couldve missed that.
Claudia
[This message has been edited by Claudia Marie (edited 10-15-2001).]
Happy to see someone who makes comments to my post. It should not be a monologue.
My last post which you made comments on, was a review of far we have come into the sanctuary. We have not yet talked about the Most Holy place, but we will soon continue, with this last section of the tabernacle.
Thank you for the reminding of the verse from Isaiah ch. 6. From this text we see how serious it is to be a preacher of the Word. Even the ministers and the preachers may fall, and speak with unclean lips. This hurts Jesus, but if we humble ourselves he will touch our lips with coal from the altar, as was done to Isaiah. By this act, "the iniquity is taken away, and the sin is purged" (Isa 6:7). This a wonderful picture of the transformation which takes place when we humble ourselves in Gods presence. The coal from the altar represents the purifying and refining power of divine grace. This work was necessary before Isaiah could start his work as Gods messengers.
As you wrote, it is of vital importance that we humble ourselves when God wants us to work for him.
To have right thoughts and feelings are not something way down the line. We can through divine power have right feelings and thoughts today. It is therefore no excuse for sin. Through sanctification the character is stabilized, and we grow in the fruits of the spirit through divine power.
We may walk into the tabernacle unaware of the sabbath, the health laws etc., but we cannot go into the tabernacle with anger and unpatience in the heart. "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal" (1 Cor 13:1).
This was only some few thoughts from me.
Please feel free to make comments on this.
Allan F
Throughout the jewish year there was activity in the courtyard and in the Holy place, but in the Most Holy there was only activity one day during the year. That day, "The Day of Atonment" is still the most important day for the jews (yom kippur).
"On this day he shall make atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgression in all their sins... on that day shall the priest make an atonment for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the Lord" (Lev 16:16,30).
What has puzzled many theologians, and specially non-SDA's, is why there neeeded to be a Day of Atonment, when there was made atonment in the courtyard every day throughout the year.
We have learned that at the altar we give our sins to Jesus, and we do no longer carry them ourselves. Jesus thereafter carries them into the tabernacle, which therefor becomes unclean because the sins. But why didn't Jesus make a final atonment at the altar (cross)?
I beleive that we can find an answer in one of Jesus' parables. In Matt 18:23-35 "the kingdom of heaven is likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants" (v.23).
And the King found someone who owed him 10.000 talents, but it was utterly impossible for the man to pay that amount back again. This symbolize our condition. We have all sinned and fallen short and can not pay back our debt.
But the king in this parable was a mercyfull king and he forgave him the debt. This a picture of Gods beautiful character. He will have compassion with all sinful people who humble themselves and seek for mercy. How wonderful that God is the God of the universe and not me, or Satan.
So far, the parable has described what took place in the courtyard. The King has forgiven the debt symbolize that we are forgiven our sins.
Then the parable shows another important aspect of the "the kingdom of heaven" and what it is likened unto.
The man in the parable which have been shown so much mercy, we would suppose would follow the same principles that the king followed. But he reveals that he is not like his king. He refuses to forgive his debtor, which only owes him 100 penance, and puts him in jail. What an uncompassionate man. When the King hear about this, he calls in the man which had previously owed him 10.000 talents, and tells him that he should have forgiven that man instead of putting him to jail.
Then the king decided that this man still should pay all the 10.000 talents.
What can we learn from this last part of the parable? When we are forgiven at the altar, our sins are forgiven in the same way as the man was forgiven his unpayable debt. But when we have given our sins to Jesus and he has taken them into the tabernacle, we must let him keep them too. The parable tells us that if we turn away from our conversion, then the sins we have comitted will come upon our own head again, and Jesus can not do what he wants to do for us on "The Day of Atonment".
If this thought is new for you and seems strange and not biblical, I recommend chapters 18 and 33 in the book of Ezekiel where the same thoughts are presented as in the parable in Matt 18.
On the Day of Atonment the priest went into the Most holy, where the ark of the covenant stood. The most important question to ask oneself that day was: Have I entered the covenant with my Lord? What was inside the ark of the covenant showed whether one was living in the covenant or not. All this made the day very special and important, and it is maybe therefore the day is still the most important day for the jews.
But this day was not a day to be frightened. It was a day to have trust in the saviour. When the day was over, all the sins which had made the tabernacle unclean were gone away with the scapegoat, and happiness followed soon after during the feast of the tabernacles.
The Jewish day of atonment pointed forward to a final time in the history when God will make an end to sin and sinners. That is both a serious happening but also something to look forward to. We beleive that God already has started this process and soon will end his work. How we can say this, we will discuss later.
Allan F
When The Judgment Of The Living Begins
I will do this study proving all of my points from both Ellen White and the Bible. I always like to have proof for each point from both sources as then I am doubly sure I’m on the right track. Also note that I have put all key words in all caps. This will help you to follow the line of thought as you begin to see how these key words relate and explain one another.
Will we know when the judgment of the living begins? Yes, I believe so. This study will attempt to do just that. The clue to understanding this subject lies in the sanctuary. Judgment Day is the Day of Atonement. When we are judged, our sins are blotted out of all records of these sins in the universe (God’s mind, our minds, and the books in heaven), and we are sealed for eternity. This process all happens at the same time, and it happens during the latter rain which occurs during the time of trouble before probation closes. The statement I just made I will prove with the following texts and quotes.
In the Bible the words “blot,” “purge,” and “cleanse” all mean the same thing and can be used interchangeably. Here’s the proof.
“Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindess; according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies BLOT out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and CLEANSE me from my sin. PURGE me with hyssop, and I shall be CLEAN; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.” Psalm 51:1-2,7.
“Because that the worshippers once PURGED should have had no more conscience (knowledge—see Strong’s) of sins.” Hebrews 10:2. Why can’t we remember our sins? Because they have been blotted out of our minds.
“And thou shalt take of the blood thereof, and put it on the four horns of it, and on the four corners of the settle, and upon the border round about; thus shalt thou CLEANSE and PURGE it.” Ezekiel 44:20.
“Iniquities prevail against me; as for our transgressions, thou shalt PURGE them away.” Psalm 65:5.
“I have BLOTTED out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and as a cloud, thy sins.” Isaiah 44:22.
There’s more texts I could quote to prove that these words are interchangeable and mean the same event, but this is enough for now. (If you don’t believe me, do your own study using Strong’s.)
When are our sins purged? “When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have PURGED the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of JUDGMENT.” Thus, we are purged by the judgment.
When does this purging, blotting, and judging occur? “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be BLOTTED out, WHEN the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.” What are these times of refreshing? The latter rain.
How can we prove the “latter rain” is the “refreshing?” “To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to REST; and this if the REFRESHING; yet they would not hear.” Isaiah 28:12. When we get REST we are REFRESHED and REVIVED. On a hot day are we not revived and refreshed when we drink a long cool drink of water or, as we did when we were children, run around under the sprinkler? Yes, water and RAIN REVIVE us.
“After two days will he REVIVE us; in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord; his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the LATTER and former RAIN unto the earth.
So, when does this LATTER RAIN occur that is the same time as when our sins are BLOTTED out and we are JUDGED?
Notice the context of the second chapter of Joel. “Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain; let all the inhabitants of the land tremble (sounds like what is happening here in the US right now!); for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand; a day of darkness, and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains; a great people and a strong (144,000); there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.” Joel 2:1-2. Does this not sound like the time of trouble? Study the words “day of the Lord” through the Bible and you will see that these words are referring to the Second Coming and the events that lead up to it. With this context of the time of trouble in mind, read Joel 2:23, “Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the Lord your God; for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.” Thus we see that it is in the time of trouble that the latter rain falls. Notice also that Joel 2:32 say, “And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered.” Thus, this latter rain falls during the time of trouble before the close of probation since Joel is telling us that during this time people are still being saved.
Now, let’s connect everything. Since our sins are blotted out and purged during the judgment, and since the blotting out occurs when the latter rain falls, and since the latter rain falls during the time of trouble before the close of probation, then by connecting all of this we discover that the judgment of the living is during the time of trouble before the close of probation.
Notice how Ellen White also connects these events (judgment, blotting out of sins, and latter rain) together as well.
“Are we closely examining our own hearts? Are we by repentance and confession sending our sins beforehand to JUDGMENT, that they may be BLOTTED out when the times of REFRESHING shall come?” Second Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, 8-28-1883.
“’The commencement of that time of trouble,’ here mentioned does not refer to the time when the plagues hall begin to be poured out, but to a short period just before they are poured out, while Christ is in the sanctuary. At that time, while the work of salvation is closing, trouble will be coming on the earth, and the nations will be angry, yet held in check so as not to prevent the work of the third angel. At that time the “LATTER RAIN,” or REFRESHING from the presence of the Lord, will come, to give power to the loud voice of the third angel, and prepare the saints to stand in the period when the seven last plagues shall be poured out.” The Early Writings of Ellen G. White, p 85.
“You will talk and we will not be thinking of ourselves and what others are doing, but what God and Jesus are doing…What are they doing? They are CLEANSING the SANCTUARY OF OUR SOULS of all unrighteousness, that our names may be written in the Lamb’s book of life, that our sins may be BLOTTED out when the times of REFRESHING shall come from the presence of the Lord.” Lift Him Up, p. 216.
“Time is fast hastening on, and every work will soon be brought into JUDGMENT, and either our sins or our names will be BLOTTED out of the Book of Life.” Sons and Daughters of God, p. 49.
Those who have not ceased to sin and who have not repented and sought pardon for their transgressions are not represented in this company; for this company vex their souls over the corruptions and iniquity abounding around them, and God will recognize those who are sighing and crying because of the abominations done in the land. They were not mixed up in these abominations. They had not corrupted their ways before God, but had washed their robes of character and had made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Satan pointed to their sins which had not yet been BLOTTED out, and which he had tempted them to commit, and then reviled them as being sinners clad with filthy garments. But Jesus changes their appearance. He says, "Take away his filthy garments from him." "Behold I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment, and I said, let him set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments." Manuscript Releases Volume Four, p. 250.
Notice how Ellen White connects “cleansing,” “sealing,” and “latter rain.” “Not one of us will ever receive the SEAL of God while our characters have one spot or stain upon them. It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to CLEANSE the soul temple of every defilement. Then the LATTER RAIN will fall upon us…” Maranatha p. 232.
To recap again, the sealing, cleansing, purging, blotting out of sins, and the latter rain all occur during the time of the judgment, which is the Day of Atonement. When our sins are blotted out we are judged and this occurs during the time of trouble as I have proved from the above quotes.
Ellen White says that the first and second angels’ messages will be repeated. “ The first message is to be repeated proclaiming the second advent of Christ to our world. The second angels' message is to be repeated, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is
become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. Manuscript Release Vol. 16 p. 40. They were originally proclaimed just before 1844 when the judgment of the dead began. Why are they repeated? Well, the first angel’s message states that the hour of judgment has come. This message is repeated to the world when the judgment of the living is about to start. Just like God warned the world when the judgment of the dead began, so will He warn the world when the judgment of the living begins. And, it begins during the time of trouble before the close of probation as the above texts and quotes prove. Yes, the 144,000 will loudly proclaim when the judgment of the living is about to begin. God does nothing without revealing His secrets unto His servants the prophets. (Amos 3:7) And these servants will faithfully proclaim to the world what they have learned, even though they will be persecuted severely for doing so.
I recognize that this study takes a little “brain power” and one may not fully grasp all the connections until it is read several times, which I encourage you to do.
Brother Allen. Do you believe that there is in fact a *final atonement*? In theory I suppose I do. My thoughts are that [1] the first atonement was accomplished when Christ hung upon the cross - a substitutionary life for the ultimate payment for sin(s); [2] the second portion of the atonement being upon Christ's third return when, before the on-looking universe, this planet with all remaining inhabitants, and the very *sin problem* it's self will finally be atoned for.
<<What has puzzled many theologians, and specially non-SDA's, is why there neeeded to be a Day of Atonment, when there was made atonment in the courtyard every day throughout the year.>>
I think it most interesting that Paul [or let's just say for the sake of conjecture, anyone who may have written], writing to the believer's in we believe Rome; took almost an entire seven chapters in Hebrews to come to the conclusion that; a] Christ was a *better* priest; b] the new covenant was a *better* covenant; c] and following the flow we see that he clearly points out that Christs atoneing sacrifice at the cross could only be accepted as such by the Father, the Angels, and also the on-looking universe - so that man, in his limited and at best faint understanding of these *spiritual things*, could accept this *bridge* as-it-were, of life when we in fact truely deserved death...[Just for the language of this subject, read chapters 7&8 of Hebrews in the NKJV, it really makes clear the object of this some what oblique concept for mind so un-learned as my own :)]
This contribution to the thread will probably sound in contridiction to what I've said in former posts. There is much room for the discussion of a balance between law and justice -&- mercy and grace...I think that we could all pretty well figure out the image of God which each one of us portray in their posts -- and to this I might also add as was pointed out to me in another forum; God has told us not to *take His Name in vail*; yet, while mis-representing Him in character, nature, or government, we also take His Name in vain...
The more I study the vastness of these subjects; the greater the rift between my own conception of *truth* and Gods ideal of *Love* in His *Law*.
Unto He who is able!
Bro. Thompson, will you please be so kind as to (1) SHOW US FROM SCRIPTURE when Christ is supposed to have made His second return? And (2) where the Bible talks about a "third return" of Christ?
M.A.
Richard
Brother Thompson, I beleive like you, that the Bible talks about a final atonment. That I find to be prior to Jesus second coming, and not after his arrival. Our sister Jean mentioned Acts 3:19-21 where it says:
"19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
We see from these verses that the sins will be blotted out before Jesus comes again. See also Heb 9:28.
Allan F
[1]Christ's first coming as a man Jn.1:14;
[2]His second, 1Thess.4:16,17;
[3]His third and final return 2Thess.1:3-10.
He loves you. He loves me. Even if we cannot or will not agree... :)
Your brother in Christ.
Got a double take of your posts. It happens once in awhile when we hit the wrong key.
I think I understand where you both are coming from. Some say two and some say three times Jesus is suppose to come.
My thought is that the first time Jesus came as a Man to save sinners. The second time he comes as King to take his Saints.
The first two he was coming for mankind to save and redeem.
I do not see the third time, if you want to call it that, as a coming. It is more as a finishing of what he has to do. He will be bringing the Saints with Him. Sad to say what will be left of this last event is the destruction of sinful man, angels and this present earth.
Does this help anyone?
Liane
Brothers and Sisters. Liane, I really like your comments. And perhaps, as in my opinion,
a good many of us fall into this trap of symantics - it occurs to my, however, that one might do just as well refraining from such as often as possible and let the conversations continue, at least to a point where one gets so far out there that a reality check is necessary. For, we all get a bit *out there* at times. No?
For your consideration. Perhaps as justification, sanctification, and glorification are at
once - yet seperate parts of the *Atonement Process*. The third coming, as I have put it is actually to say that it is in this *cleansing* of this world - and universe, which makes or a *final* atonement? And this all happens when all of us return with Him the third and final time as watch as He *purges - cleanses - sets right* His universe...Whatchthink?
Brother Allen. Regarding your post of 10-19, I wonder [as I think I've stated before] if we make *to much* of the seperate(ness) of the cleansing of "the people" and the "sanctuary" in regard to the events concerning the 2300 year prophecy of Daniel? There is, in my opinion, nothing to distinguish the point that on the Day of Atonement, the curtain between the Holy and Holy of Holies was not seperated as [while] the High Priest *cleansed* the sins of the people [before the vail] and the Ark of the Covenant [the Mercy Seat]? This is, as I understand it, exactly what is going on in the Heavenly Sanctuary today as we speak...both of the living, and the dead...I'd like to talk more on this subject if you wouldn't mind...
Sister Miller. You said: "The Jewish day of atonment pointed forward to a final time in the history when God will make an end to sin and sinners. That is both a serious happening but also something to look forward to. We beleive that God already has started this process and soon will end his work." You continued by stating: "The clue to understanding this subject lies in the sanctuary. Judgment Day is the Day of Atonement. When we are judged, our sins are blotted out of all records of these sins in the universe (God’s mind, our minds, and the books in heaven), and we are sealed for eternity. This process all happens at the same time, and it happens during the latter rain which occurs during the time of trouble before probation closes."
First of all sister, I must agree, at least in part to you conclusion of *what* the Jewish Day of Atonement represents(ed). However, are you suggesting that there will be for God, and for us as well, a sort of *holy amniesia? And if not, what sort of *forgetfullness* are you describing? It occurs to me that we forget that David will *always* be the Solomons father out of wedlock and Beersheba his mother...Don't you think it highly unlikely Uriah will look at this as at all *right*? How so praytell? No, I think he will indeed question if not openly than to both David and Beershebahad privately as to *where this quite obviously *illegitimate* son came to be? I will always have been what I have been as will you be who you are...The point is, in my opinion, have our *hearts* been changed? Are we *safe* to be eternal neighbor's with angles and the unfallen beings of the universe? I know there will be *some question*, at least in the mind of my guardian angel as to whether or not I will be a safe neighbor. "Jim? Come on...I was there! I know what sort of character he has been"...Yet, I believe that God
the Father, Jesus His Son, and the Holy Spirit will come to my [and all of the redeemeds] rescue and explain to the universe that *our hearts* have been *changed* and we *are safe* to bring home!
Consider if you will 1 Kings 11:34. Here, He tells Solomon that He will stay His hand of execution of punishment from taking the whole kingdom from him [Solomon] BECAUSE OF his father David, who "kept My commandments and my statutes". What do you think Solomon must have been thinking? "Are you kidding Lord? MY father? Who kept your commandments and statutes? Are we talking about the same man here? I don't think so! In reminiscence of, and surely respect to my father perhaps you were able to forgive; but "Kept Your commandments? Come on!"
I mean absolutely no sacasm or sacrilege here. Far from it...What do you think we will be
doing during the thousand year period while satan and his are stuck on this tiny little
ball in the universe with nothing to do but pick on each other? No, I think that there
will be a great deal of *restoration* and *healing* to be going on. Explinations and for-
giveness - and, not all eyes will be *dry* during this period of time either - there will
be a lot of things to mourn. None-the-less, can anyone here see my point?
Your sonnet from Psalms 51 is all well and good taken in it's place - *still behind the *vail of the Holy and Most Holy places...I will gladly get into the terms of *purge or cleanse* if that will help in further scrutiny of my position - I see it unlikely :) The point is, as I've already stated, we are speaking of a change of heart are we not? It is not that God does not care about *what* we have done...His main or whole concern is *who* we are...When looking at David, you, or I, He sees not what we have done - but only His Goodness through the cross of Christ. What we have been is secondary to what we have become. He just cannot remember!
Hebrews 10:26 has been a thorn [so-to-speak] in my side for a number of years...And with this thought I will try and wrap-up in whole my above-mentioned consideration. It seems, at least on the face of things that, if Christ, our High Priest were in the Holy Place alone, than all has already been decided...This would surely be ground for an argument of predestination. No, it is my belief that while there is yet one, undecided soul upon the earth, Christ must by necessity be working in both the Holy and Holy of Holies...He cannot make arbitrary judgment...else His whole universe would see the flaw. He must not only offer - but extend the time of *judgment* until the last person has decided on who's side he stands...
So much to consider. So much at stake. So little time!
Your brother in Christ.
I am not sure I did understand your thoughts on the separation between the cleansing of the sanctuary and the people. Please explain more about this.
Allan
M.A.
In His Service. :o
What does the jewish feasts have to do with the sanctuary? I have sometimes asked myself this question. As I have studied the sanctuary topic I have found that there seems to be a relationship between the different portions of the sanctuary and the jewish feasts. It is my intention to present this here in an easy and understandable way.
But let us first keep in mind the basic structure of the sanctuary before we go to the jewish feasts.
As you read through this posting, recognize that the different numbers correspond to the different items/portions of the sanctuary.
1.= Altar
2.= Laver
3.= The holy place
4.= The most holy place
Up til now we have been studying what the sanctuary teaches us about salvation and the basic steps in the our personal, christian experience:
1. Forgiveness
2. Cleansing
3. Sanctification, growing in the fruits of the spirit
4. Final atonement / judgment / acquittal
We may look at these steps from different perspectives: From the view of what is God's part:
1. The Cross
2. Ressurrection / work of the Holy Spirit
3. Jesus' intercession in the holy place
4. Jesus as judge and advocate in the most holy place
We may also look at it from the perspective of what is our part:
1.-2. Confession, surrendering, turn away from sin
3. Keep near to God. Bible study, prayer, witnessing, walk on God's ways
4. Let Jesus keep our sins, so that He can make the final atonement our sins.
But let us not forget that salvation from sin implies cooperation, because there are one who saves and one who is being saved.
Now, we know that Jesus have gone through the sanctuary from the altar to the most holy. He started two thousand years ago at the altar and is today in the most holy place. How do we explain that?
What I have found very interesting is that if we combine the sanctuary, the jewish feasts and prophecy, we can see when Jesus took the different steps in the heavenly sanctuary.
There were 4 feasts in the jewish year: The passover, the Pentecost/feast of weeks, the Day of atonment and the Feast of tabernacles. The numbers following do still apply to the steps in the sanctuary (1=altar, 2=laver, 3=the holy, 4=the most holy)
1. The passover was the first feast and took place for the first time at exodus, while the israelites were still in Egypt. The expression "passover" simply means "to pass". This feast came in the beginning of the year. In a special way this feast symbolized Jesus' atoning death for mankind. When we apply the blood of Jesus it marks the beginning of the christian life. The blood of Jesus opens the door to eternal life.
When Jesus died on the cross, He died after the jewish calendar, that would say in the passover, when the lamb was to be offered at the altar in the temple. The prophecy that tells us when this happened, we find in Dan 9. In the midst of the 70th week He should make an end to offerings. This was in the year 31 AD, on the 14th day in the first month, at the time when they slaughtered the passover lamb (ca. 3:30pm).
2. On the third day of the feast there was offered a wave sheaf, the first fruit of the harvest. The first fruit is a symbol of Jesus (1 Cor 15:20). This seremony was a symbol of the ressurrection of Jesus and it came on the third day after the slaugtering of the lamb, just like Jesus was being ressurrected on the third day.
3. The second feast was the Pentecost/ feast of weeks which came seven weeks after the day of the wave sheaf. The pentecost in Acts 1 came seven weeks from the day of the ressurrection of Jesus, and that marked the beginning of Jesus minstry in the Holy place.
He then annointed the heavenly sanctuary, which was the antitype of the annointing that took place before the earthly tabernacle was taken in use (Exo 40). God's people were also annointed; by the Holy Spirit (Acts 1).
4. The third feast was the Day of Atonment and it came in the end of the year (the sacred). This feast was clearly linked to what took place in the most holy place. The Day of Atonement symbolizes the final atonement taking place at the end time. The prophecy that takes us to this time is Dan 7,8,9. In ch. 7, Daniel sees the judgment, and it is possible to place the judgement roughly in time. It was going to start shortly after the 1260 days (v.25.26). In Daniel 8 and 9 we get to know the date more exactly; 2300 years from the time when the 70 weeks started. (457 BC + 2300y. = 1844). Further it was going to happen on the 10th day in the 7th month. Therefore around the date 10-22-1844. By this we have placed also the fullfilment of this feast in the history. Again done by the prophecy in Dan 8+9.
We see from this how the different feasts points to Jesus' activity in the sanctuary and reveal his ministry there. The feasts combined with prophecy makes it also possible to follow Jesus through the sanctuary, in time.
I wish that this has been useful to someone, and I hope it was not presented in a too confusing manner. Personally, these aspects from the sanctuary has strengthen my faith in God and I hope others find evidences of an almighty God in this topic.
Allan F
[This message has been edited by Allan F (edited 11-16-2001).]
Personally Brother Allan, I find it difficult to move through your formula posted here on 11-16-01. I have worked through it as best I am able to find for one thing that there are, according to Leviticus 23, seven (7) festival Sabbaths not four (4).
Since the Passover is most commonly thrashed by Seventh-Day-Adventist's, by introductory thought let me start there.
Throughtout Holy Script, I find numerous texts regarding the "purging" of any number of things. All 0f which are in fact symbols, or metaphors to the cleansing of the heart on man on a personal basis. The ordinance of the Passover was designed to call the minds of Isreal (and our own) from their world-loving interests, from their cares and anxieties in relation to temporal concerns, and to review the works of God.
We, like Israel of old are to call to mind His miracles, His mercies and loving-kindness toward us. I do not personally need look to far to see His mercies. Last year on at least three occassions I saw God working to put in place an answer to my prayers, before I had even prayed. So this He has done that I might trust Him in even the smallest of things.
I'd like to challenge TRO members in this thread to look at EGW's commentary regarding a similar theme in Education, pp. 84-96.
May God richly bless all of us this next year as we each, in his turn, endeavor to finish the work which is left to do...
Your brother in Christ,
jimthompson
Richard
Attempt made.
With the growing of my new puppy I have been missing much along the way and found it interesting to see this subject brought up once again since January.
The issue of the Passover, separating it into several feasts has been a long issue, but from my Jewish background this is not the case.
The Passover Lamb, the Unleavened Bread and the Offering of first-fruits along with the bitter herbs is all one process that comes out of the experience of leaving Egypt given by God.
Passover because God passed over the houses of our fathers in Egypt. Unleavened bread, because our fathers were redeemed from Egypt and Bitter herbs because the Egyptians embittered the lives of our fathers in Egypt. And the first fruits because every generation is obliged to see himself as though he personally came out of Egypt.
So when we bring Passover as one Feast, then that leaves the three others that Allan presented which makes four.
We also can see through the post of Allan the application of fulfilment of these feasts through the life, death, resurrection and ministry in the Holy Place by Jesus.
Then there is the next feast of the Feast of Tabernacles which is a whole other issue of in of itself which was started in another topic at Bread of Life which has not been followed through as of yet.
Liane
Personally interested in the "Sanctuary Doctrine" and it's many aspects. It was considered that posting here might be the next and most obvious place. However, due to an untimely call away from my current surroundings, I will only be able to make a short post of intention.
There are a number of "references" to the concept of a "passover" in the Bible. Of course, the most frequently used is that of the Sanctuary [earthly and Heavenly]. Lately, however, it has become evident that there are also other "passovers" which bare mentioning. For instance: Christ at one point entered into His "home town" where He was greated quite un-friendly. Because of this, the towns folk "passed-over" blessing of healing both physically and spiritually. There were other's I'm thinking, and I apologize that at the moment I will not be able to go into any depth herein.
With no idea how long I may be in absence I bid all a very wonderful year.
Herb
Richard
Richard
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With Christian Love,
Sister Glass
Richard
[This message has been edited by Richard Myers (edited 08-06-2002).]
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With Christian Love,
Sister Glass
For the last months I have become aware of what I now see as a very clear presentation of the sanctuary in the gospel of John. I would like to present what I have found soon, and will appreciate comments. I am not finish with this study yet and therefore would really like to get your thouhgts and comments, especially because I never have heard anybody presenting this topic before.
Allan F
excuse me as I interrupt and express my astonishment.
Not having followed intensely all the topics in this BoL sector, would you tell me if there is another topic that has more than this on pages in it's thread ?
Joan
"Jehova is a gracious giver" - The SANCTUARY:
The reason why God told the jews to build a sanctuary was that He wanted to live among his people (Exo 25:8), to teach them the way of salvation. The earthly sanctuary became the centre and foundation of their relgion for more than 1000 years.
In John 1,14 we read that "the Word (Jesus) was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."
In the original language the word "dwelt" means "have one's tabernacle". As God dwelt in the Sanctuary built by humans, so Jesus came to this earth to dwell among us. He came as a true human being. He clothed his divinity with humanity.
What was not commonly known in his time, was that He, and not the tabernacle was the very foundation of the hebrew religion. More than this, he was also the giver of it all.
Until this very day I have never heard of any better gift or offer, than the gift of salvation. The possibility of living forever, many religion claim to offer. But no one presents the gift of overcoming our own sinful minds and evil tendensies in such a way as Jesus and the Bible do.
Allan F
[This message has been edited by Allan F (edited 08-10-2002).]
In the very first chapter of the gospel of John, Jesus is being presented according to his great mission on earth: "Behold the lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). It was of utmost importance that Jesus was being presented in a true way.
The whole nation beleived in Messiah, but as long as they beleived that Jesus was in company with the devil, the belief in Messiah was of no value. What the people wanted to hear those days was rather "behold, the lion of juda, which taketh away the romans, out of Israel".
What many failed to see, was the two aspects of the OT-prophecies about the Messiah: First the lamb, then the lion. First the cross, then the crown and throne. In His days, people beleived that His presence would leed to freedom from their enemies. Today people beleive that his second coming will leed to freedom from their sins. We seem to be no better than the israelites in the time of Jesus...
The wrong interpretations of the scriptures were maybe one of the toughest challenges to Jesus. Again and again He was confronted with misinterpretations of His own Word.
The first step on the way to full denial of Jesus as Messiah was taken by the religious leaders as ealry as His birth in Bethlehem. That time they denied the uneducated shepherds and heathen wise men's claims of having received direct information from God about the Messiah. They beleived that God would first turn to them, who where the religious leaders and the ones who "knew" the scriptures. Their pride in this situation was the first step toward their decission of killing Jesus.
Jesus, on the other hand, showed a different personality and character. As the lamb of God "He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth" (Isa 53:7). "For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted (Heb 2:18).
Jesus, "The Lamb", is the best evidence for
me that God is love, and that this kind of love is something else than sentimentalism, which the word is so associated with today. God sent his only begotten son to this earth, with the possibility for Jesus to choose between right and evil as we do in the struggle with our sinful nature. this is a frightening thought. When we recognize this we see how much God wanted and still wants to do in order to save us.
This gift - The Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world - raises an important and personal question to us all:
Has the Lamb of God taken away your sins?
Allan F
[This message has been edited by Allan F (edited 08-10-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Allan F (edited 08-10-2002).]
The next item in the sancturay was the laver which was filled with water.
After the presentation of Jesus as the lamb in John 1:29, John in the following chapters presents the living water, which is free to all who seek it. The water is a symbol of the renewing power of The Holy Spirit. It is made clear that Jesus is the one who "baptizeth with the Holy Spirit" (John 1:33).
CHAPTER 2
In verses 1-11 Jesus is present in a wedding, a symbol of the union between man and Christ. Here is what EGW writes about the meaning of water and wine:
"The gift of Christ to the marriage feast was a symbol. The water represented baptism into His death; the wine, the shedding of His blood for the sins of the world. The water to fill the jars was brought by human hands, but the word of Christ alone could impart to it life-giving virtue. So with the rites which point to the Saviour's death. It is only by the power of Christ, working through faith, that they have efficacy to nourish the soul.
The word of Christ supplied ample provision for the feast. So abundant is the provision of His grace to blot out the iniquities of men, and to renew and sustain the soul" (DA p. 149).
The next verses tells us about Jesus cleansing the temple. This action had a deeper meaning which EGW writes about in DA p. 161:
"In cleansing the temple from the world's buyers and sellers, Jesus announced His mission to cleanse the heart from the defilement of sin,-from the earthly desires, the selfish lusts, the evil habits, that corrupt the soul."
Before we can be a temple for the Holy Spirit the heart must be cleansed from evil, which is symbolized by the laver with water.
Allan F
"The ministration of the earthly sanctuary consisted of two divisions; the priests ministered daily in the holy place, while once a year the high priest performed a special work of atonement in the most holy, for the cleansing of the sanctuary....
"...After His ascension our Saviour began His work as our high priest. Says Paul: 'Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.' Hebrews 9:24.
"The ministration of the priest throughout the year in the first apartment of the sanctuary, 'within the veil' which formed the door and separated the holy place from the outer court, represents the work of ministration upon which Christ entered at His ascension. It was the work of the priest in the daily ministration to present before God the blood of the sin offering, also the incense which ascended with the prayers of Israel. So did Christ plead His blood before the Father in behalf of sinners, and present before Him also, with the precious fragrance of His own righteousness, the prayers of the penitent believers. Such was the work of ministration in the first apartment of the sanctuary in heaven." (GC, 418, 420, 421).
To be continued.
M.A.
"As anciently the sins of the people were by faith placed upon the sin offering and through its blood transferred, in figure, to the earthly sanctuary, so in the new covenant the sins of the repentant are by faith placed upon Christ and transferred, in fact, to the heavenly sanctuary. And as the typical cleansing of the earthly was accomplished by the removal of the sins by which it had been polluted, so the actual cleansing of the heavenly is to be accomplished by the removal or blotting out, of the sins which are there recorded. But before this can be accomplished, there must be an examination of the books of record to determine who, through repentance of sin and faith in Christ, are entitled to the benefits of His atonement. The cleansing of the sanctuary therefore involves a work of investigation--a work of judgment. This work must be performed prior to the coming of Christ to redeem His people; for when He comes, His reward is with Him to give to every man according to his works. Revelation 22:12.
"Thus those who followed in the light of the prophetic word saw that, instead of coming to the earth at the termination of the 2300 days in 1844, Christ then entered the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary to perform the closing work of atonement preparatory to His coming.
"It was seen, also, that while the sin offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice, and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator, the scapegoat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed. When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty. The scapegoat was sent way into a land not inhabited, never to come again into the congregation of Israel. So will Satan be forever banished from the presence of God and His people, and he will be blotted from existence in the final destruction of sin and sinners." (GC 421-22).
M.A.
In chapter 3 and 4 of the gospel of John, water is still a central theme. The two main stories are about one top educated theologian and one uneducated foreign woman, who both needed the same thing, water. Jesus presented his gift in two different ways. In the case with Nicodemus He goes straight on to tell Him what he needs most. Toward the samaritan woman He is a bit more "careful" (Jesus always does everything in love), as He in a beautiful way compare His gift of life with the necessity of water, and in this way creates a wish in her for this special gift.
Chapter 3
Let us first look at the story of Nicodemus. Here are some quotations from the book Desire of Ages that in a good way exppresses what the spiritual water is all about:
""Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3. Nicodemus had come to the Lord thinking to enter into a discussion with Him, but Jesus laid bare the foundation principles of truth. He said to Nicodemus, It is not theoretical knowledge you need so much as spiritual regeneration. You need not to have your curiosity satisfied, but to have a new heart" (p 168).
"Jesus continued: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." By nature the heart is evil, and "who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." Job 14:4. No human invention can find a remedy for the sinning soul. "The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." "Out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies." Rom. 8:7; Matt. 15:19. The fountain of the heart must be purified before the streams can become pure. He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law is attempting an impossibility. There is no safety for one who has merely a legal religion, a form of godliness. The Christian's life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit" (p. 172).
"Those who had been bitten by the serpents might have delayed to look. They might have questioned how there could be efficacy in that brazen symbol. They might have demanded a scientific explanation. But no explanation was given. They must accept the word of God to them through Moses. To refuse to look was to perish. Not through controversy and discussion is the soul enlightened. We must look and live. Nicodemus received the lesson, and carried it with him. He searched the Scriptures in a new way, not for the discussion of a theory, but in order to receive life for the soul. He began to see the kingdom of heaven as he submitted himself to the leading of the Holy Spirit" (p 175).
In the chapter "Modern revivals" (GC), Ellen G. White points out the dangers in much of what is called spiritual revival in the last days and she writes that there is a strong tendency to diminish the importance of christlike obedience to Gods will, which I guess all of us all can confirm as happening around us today. She here also expresses in a clear way what is taking place at the new birth:
"In the new birth the heart is brought into harmony with God, as it is brought into accord with His law. When this mighty change has taken place in the sinner, he has passed from death unto life, from sin unto holiness, from transgression and rebellion to obedience and loyalty. The old life of alienation from God has ended; the new life of reconciliation, of faith and love, has begun. Then "the righteousness of the law" will "be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:4" (GC 469).
Chapter 4
At last, I want to share two quotations about the samaritan woman at the well. Instead of accepting her way of living and her present state, it is so good to read how Jesus was able to create a wish of something better in the heart of this woman. That is what He wants to do in all of us:
"He who seeks to quench his thirst at the fountains of this world will drink only to thirst again. Everywhere men are unsatisfied. They long for something to supply the need of the soul. Only One can meet that want. The need of the world, "The Desire of all nations," is Christ. The divine grace which He alone can impart, is as living water, purifying, refreshing, and invigorating the soul" (DA 187).
"Nothing that had hitherto come in contact with her had so awakened her to a higher need. Jesus had convinced her that He read the secrets of her life; yet she felt that He was her friend, pitying and loving her. While the very purity of His presence condemned her sin, He had spoken no word of denunciation, but had told her of His grace, that could renew her soul" (DA 190).
Allan F
As Richard mentioned we need the spiritual water everyday. We need it to be cleansed, and we need to "drink" it every day to stay alive spiritually. These two functions of water is presented by John in his first chapters of his gospel.
Let us now turn to ch. 4, the last chapter where water and the new life again is a central theme. This post is a bit too long, but I found the quotations from EGW very good.
In this chapter Jesus is at the pool of Bethesda. As he walks beside this pool he can see all the sufferers that is beside the pool, waiting for the water to be agitated. Only the strongest people would have the possibility to be the first to enter the water. How different this is from the criteria of getting the new life which Jesus wants to give us all:
"Walking alone, in apparent meditation and prayer, He came to the pool. He saw the wretched sufferers watching for that which they supposed to be their only chance of cure. He longed to exercise His healing power, and make every sufferer whole. But it was the Sabbath day. Multitudes were going to the temple for worship, and He knew that such an act of healing would so excite the prejudice of the Jews as to cut short His work."
"But the Saviour saw one case of supreme wretchedness. It was that of a man who had been a helpless cripple for thirty-eight years. His disease was in a great degree the result of his own sin, and was looked upon as a judgment from God. Alone and friendless, feeling that he was shut out from God's mercy, the sufferer had passed long years of misery. At the time when it was expected that the waters would be troubled, those who pitied his helplessness would bear him to the porches. But at the favored moment he had no one to help him in." (DA 201)
Let us look carefully how Jesus is approaching this man. I think we can learn an important lesson on how few conditions there are to receive the new spiritual life/birth:
"The sick man was lying on his mat, and occasionally lifting his head to gaze at the pool, when a tender, compassionate face bent over him, and the words, "Wilt thou be made whole?" arrested his attention. Hope came to his heart...Jesus does not ask this sufferer to exercise faith in Him. He simply says, "Rise, take up thy bed, and walk." But the man's faith takes hold upon that word. Every nerve and muscle thrills with new life, and healthful action comes to his crippled limbs. Without question he sets his will to obey the command of Christ, and all his muscles respond to his will. Springing to his feet, he finds himself an active man." (DA 202)
"Through the same faith we may receive spiritual healing. By sin we have been severed from the life of God. Our souls are palsied. Of ourselves we are no more capable of living a holy life than was the impotent man capable of walking. There are many who realize their helplessness, and who long for that spiritual life which will bring them into harmony with God; they are vainly striving to obtain it. In despair they cry, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death?" Rom. 7:24, margin. Let these desponding, struggling ones look up. The Saviour is bending over the purchase of His blood, saying with inexpressible tenderness and pity, "Wilt thou be made whole?" He bids you arise in health and peace. Do not wait to feel that you are made whole. Believe His word, and it will be fulfilled. Put your will on the side of Christ. Will to serve Him, and in acting upon His word you will receive strength. Whatever may be the evil practice, the master passion which through long indulgence binds both soul and body, Christ is able and longs to deliver. He will impart life to the soul that is "dead in trespasses." Eph. 2:1." (DA 203)
What Jesus did to this man, happened on a Sabbath, the memorial of creation. Because of that he was brought to Sanhedrin to answer the charge of sabbathbreaking. In His answer to His accusers it is interesting to see that He claims to be a creator and have the same power as God has (v.21). That is why the Pharisees must accept Jesus in order to have spiritual life. Spiritual life is given only through Jesus:
"And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you." (John 5:38-40.42).
Allan F
In the gospel of John, we have so far looked at the courtyard experience in the christian life. Let us shortly summarize it:
- The SANCTUARY - "The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us" (ch. 1)
- The ALTAR - "The lamb of God" (ch. 1)
- The LAVER - "The water of life" (ch. 2-5)
Bread of Life - Jesus and his Word
In chapters 6 and 7 the theme is Bread. First physical, then spiritual bread (6:27-). But let us start in the previous ch. In the end of chapter 5 Jesus says to the pharisees: "search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life". It is true that spiritual life is found in the scriptures. But not in the words themselves. The main purpose of the testimonies, histories etc. in the Bible is to help us to have faith in the only one who can give us life, Jesus. Secondly the Bible guides us in how to live our life. But without power received by faith there is no real use for councels and commandments that we are not able to follow (except that they show us that we need help). The commandments can not give life, neither can the other words in the Bible. Only Jesus can do that. But the Bible helps us to take faith in Jesus as the only and best help.
Let me use an example to illustrate my point. Food is a vital source in order to uphold life and to stay healthy. Every day we need to eat. If we don't, we will soon cease to exist. But even though how healthful bread/food may be it is only useful for those of us who are alive. If I find a person living lifeless on the ground because of a heart attack, it is certainly not the time to feed him with bread. What is needed is to help him to get the heart start beating and get him alive.
So it also seems to be in the spiritual life. The pharisees were eating bread (studying the scriptures) all the time but it didn't help them to stay alive, as they thought. Why? Because they were spiritually dead as long as they didn't accept Jesus and by faith received a new heart from him.
With this I do not intend us to stay away from the Bible until we receive spiritual life from God. In fact, the Bible is one of the best sources to help us take faith in Jesus. But my point is that if we, like the pharisees study the Bible and still doubt that Jesus can give us power to be made and kept spiritually alive, the Word of God is of no spiritual or saving value. The pharisees taught almost an infinite number of rules that focused on the outward. Religion didn't deal with the inside, the heart. EGW writes in DA 309 that "The greatest deception of the human mind in Christ's day was that a mere assent to the truth constitutes righteousness. In all human experience a theoretical knowledge of the truth has been proved to be insufficient for the saving of the soul." In this way their religion became focused on eating the right spiritual food which included hundreds of unbiblical laws/ingredients of what when and how to eat (see DA 29).
Today we also face the same deception as EGW mentions in DA 309, mostly because of the teachings of "the false prophet" in Rev, which says that it is neither possible nor really necessary to be alive, because Jesus has been alive for us. In this way people are robbed (mainly by priests and theologians...) for the best experience heaven want to offer humans on this earth. But as long as this mindset guides our Bible study, we will benefit from it no more than the Bible study of the pharisees. In both cases Bible study will not help us to become spiritually alive, because "ye will not come to me, that ye might have life" (John 5:40). In the first case both the teacher and His message is denied. In the latter, only the message is denied.
With this in mind we will go to John 6-7 to see what we can learn from the Bread of Life.
(To be continued)
Allan F
The miracle with bread in John ch. 6 is happening in an interesting setting. The disciples who were the ones who were delivering the pysical food to the people, have for some time been giving spiritual food to people in Israel. They have just returned from their first mission trip. For a certain time they have been travelling around, preaching the gospel to people. They now need rest and to spend time at the feet of Jesus to learn from him.
Secondly, the miracle is happening just prior to the passover (v.4). In this feast there was one week where the people ate unleavend bread, which was a symbol of Christ.
Bread in the Bible symbolizes both Jesus and his Word (eg. Joh 6:48; Deut 8:3). The grain, which may symbolize the pure words itself (Mar 4:14) is mixed with oil/water and salt in order to become a healthy and delicious bread. In the same way God wants to give us along with His word, also the Holy Spirit (oil/water) and Christ righteousness (salt). To get strengthened by spiritually bread we need first all the ingredients, then faith to "digest" the Word. "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it" (Heb 4:2).
To live by His words is not something we can do in our own strength. This was clearly demonstrated by Jesus a few hours after this miracle. Soon after he had sent the disciples away, they happened to be in a terrible storm on the sea. As Jesus approached the boat, He told Peter to come to him on the water. This is a good parallel to the christian life. The christian life is impossible from a mere human viewpoint. It is supernatural, and in order to live by the words of Jesus we need faith. As soon as Peter started loosing faith, he got in troubles. But Jesus is always at our side, helping us to walk, and to raise us up again when we fall.
The next day the people was looking for Jesus. When they found him they were eager to get to know facts about the miracle on the sea, but Jesus tried to lead their minds to eternal values, to eat of the real bread of life. In the 20 verses from 6:39-58 Jesus mentions the resurrection 5 times. He tries to make the people understand that to eat of the spiritual bread is far more important than anything else. The people wanted Jesus as their king because he could heal the sick, open the eyes of the blind, provide food etc., but this could only lengthen the physical life. But Jesus is much more concerned about of our well being than to think primarly on our physical life here and now. He knew that the motives of the common people were not right. He pleaded His father to open the eyes of the people so that they could understand His mission on earth. In His speach to the people the day after the miracle, He pointed them to the spiritual food which would make them live forever. And the food was Himself.
"To eat the flesh and drink the blood of Christ is to receive Him as a personal Saviour, believing that He forgives our sins, and that we are complete in Him. It is by beholding His love, by dwelling upon it, by drinking it in, that we are to become partakers of His nature. What food is to the body, Christ must be to the soul. Food cannot benefit us unless we eat it, unless it becomes a part of our being. So Christ is of no value to us if we do not know Him as a personal Saviour. A theoretical knowledge will do us no good. We must feed upon Him, receive Him into the heart, so that His life becomes our life. His love, His grace, must be assimilated" (DA 389).
"As our physical life is sustained by food, so our spiritual life is sustained by the word of God. And every soul is to receive life from God's word for himself. As we must eat for ourselves in order to receive nourishment, so we must receive the word for ourselves. We are not to obtain it merely through the medium of another's mind. We should carefully study the Bible, asking God for the aid of the Holy Spirit, that we may understand His word. We should take one verse, and concentrate the mind on the task of ascertaining the thought which God has put in that verse for us. We should dwell upon the thought until it becomes our own, and we know "what saith the Lord" (DA 390.4).
"The word destroys the natural, earthly nature, and imparts a new life in Christ Jesus. The Holy Spirit comes to the soul as a Comforter. By the transforming agency of His grace, the image of God is reproduced in the disciple; he becomes a new creature. Love takes the place of hatred, and the heart receives the divine similitude. This is what it means to live "by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." This is eating the Bread that comes down from heaven" (DA 391).
Allan F
[This message has been edited by Allan F (edited 10-05-2002).]
In chapter 7 of the gospel of John, the Bread of Life - the teaching of Christ - is again in focus:
"Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught. And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned? Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself" (v.14-17).
I want here to focus on the last sentence. In the kingdom of God there is certain principles that we must follow when we want to understand the word of God. Jesus was not educated in the scriptures after the model of the pharisees. But it is evident from this chapter that Jesus revealed an understanding of the scriptures that far surpassed the pharisees. And the people (+ his enemies..!) were amazed (v.46).
A famous SDA writer has paralelled the christian experience with a life long course in the School of Holiness. In this school we need some good rules, the holy law. In addition we need some good text books, the holy Word of God. We also need good examples to follow, The Holy one (Jesus), and a good teacher, The Holy Spirit.
The teacher is of special importance, since it is The Holy Spirit that made the authors write the Bible. It is also Him that will lead us to the whole truth. Without contact with him, we will not be able neither to fully understand what He ment by "His" writing, the Bible, or to receive power to grow in the fruits of the Spirit and advance in this school of holiness. The pharisees thought they were advancing in the school of holiness. They had the textbooks, the rules, but denied the good example (Jesus) and the teacher. That's why they didn't advance in this school.
"If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God". How do you find this requirement for understanding Gods Word? Do you like it? Christianity has not always beleived in this principle. It has a long tradition for a totally different thinking. The Catholic church, in its early fase introduced platonic philosophy. Platons idea that the society should be divided into groups with the philosopher as the regent, has been adopted by the Church. According to its thinking, only those who have gone through the theological correct education "shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God". For long time it was even forbidden for laymen to study the Bible.
Further, we must never put something above the Bible, neither humans nor organisations. To understand the word of God is possible and free to all men, and God wants all to understand its teaching. The catholic view on the Bible is totally unbiblical. When asked about the position of the Bible, the answer is that the Word of God is true, because the Church is true. And it was the church that gave us the Bible. The church is thus the final authority in any question, not the Bible. This is an argumentation that we totally reject. Or do we?
It is the same situation we have faced from some high SDA-theologians. Some of them can not find it biblically true what we teach concerning eg. 1844. But they still beleive in the prophecy of the 2300 days. Why? Because Ellen White wrote about it and belived it. Then we do the same blunder as the catholic church does by placing something above the Bible. If catholisism is based on traditions and the teachings of popes, or the advent message comes from Ellen G. White, we must not accept it.
Paul in his first letter to the corinthians writes that "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."
What Paul here says is that the two great methods of seaking knowledge in the world today, is not reliable when we want to know Gods plans for us. Neither empirism (experience, science) nor rationalism (philosophy, intellect) can alone bring us safely to a true understanding of God. "But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God" (v.10).
In order to understand Gods will it is important for us to be in connection with the Holy Spirit, by having the attitude that Jesus mentions in Joh 7:17.
Then we can claim this wonderful promise: "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water" (Joh 7:38).
If you are interested in other texts which explains the principles for understanding the Bible, have a look at the following verses:
- Matt 22:29.37-40
- Joh 5:39.47
- Joh 10:35
- Joh 6:45
- Joh 8:43
- 1 Tess 2:13
Please share with us if you have found additional texts.
Allan F
[This message has been edited by Allan F (edited 10-12-2002).]
In chapter 8 of the gospel of John, we begin more clearly to see another aspect of the heavenly gift to men, Jesus Christ. In the introduction to his gospel, John writes that "in him [Jesus] was life; and the life was the light of men" (Jn 1:4). It was thus Gods plan that the life of Jesus should serve as a example for all men who beleive in God. By His life Jesus revealed both how Gods character is, and how he wants our life to be.
In the previous chapters, we have mostly seen Jesus as the great healer and teacher, explaining the kingdom of God to groups and individuals (eg. Nicodemus, the samaritan woman etc.). But from now on the divine love, full of sympathy for the troubled mankind, is revealed in its fullness.
In ch. 8 we first meet the woman who was caught in adultery. Let us see how Jesus handles this difficult situation:
"Jesus looked for a moment upon the scene,--the trembling victim in her shame, the hard-faced dignitaries, devoid of even human pity. His spirit of stainless purity shrank from the spectacle. Well He knew for what purpose this case had been brought to Him. He read the heart, and knew the character and life history of everyone in His presence. These would-be guardians of justice had themselves led their victim into sin, that they might lay a snare for Jesus. Giving no sign that He had heard their question, He stooped, and fixing His eyes upon the ground, began to write in the dust." {DA 461}
"Jesus arose, and looking at the woman said, "Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."" {DA 461}
"Her heart was melted, and she cast herself at the feet of Jesus, sobbing out her grateful love, and with bitter tears confessing her sins.
This was to her the beginning of a new life, a life of purity and peace, devoted to the service of God. In the uplifting of this fallen soul, Jesus performed a greater miracle than in healing the most grievous physical disease; He cured the spiritual malady which is unto death everlasting. This penitent woman became one of His most steadfast followers. With self-sacrificing love and devotion she repaid His forgiving mercy.
In His act of pardoning this woman and encouraging her to live a better life, the character of Jesus shines forth in the beauty of perfect righteousness. While He does not palliate sin, nor lessen the sense of guilt, He seeks not to condemn, but to save. The world had for this erring woman only contempt and scorn; but Jesus speaks words of comfort and hope. The Sinless One pities the weakness of the sinner, and reaches to her a helping hand. While the hypocritical Pharisees denounce, Jesus bids her, "Go, and sin no more."
It is not Christ's follower that, with averted eyes, turns from the erring, leaving them unhindered to pursue their downward course. Those who are forward in accusing others, and zealous in bringing them to justice, are often in their own lives more guilty than they. Men hate the sinner, while they love the sin. Christ hates the sin, but loves the sinner. This will be the spirit of all who follow Him. Christian love is slow to censure, quick to discern penitence, ready to forgive, to encourage, to set the wanderer in the path of holiness, and to stay his feet therein." {DA 462}
Allan F
Forgiveness is the heart of the sanctuary message. As the knife ends the life of the lamb, the repentant sinner's heart is melted by the thought that God would allow His innocent Son to suffer in our place on account of our sins. It is grace.
Richard
With the multitude of topics in the various forums this topic has been inadvertantly dropped for a few years. Let us continue in our study of the Hebrew Sanctuary. There is much to learn.
"Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life." (John 8:12)
"In the manifestation of God to His people, light had ever been a symbol of His presence. At the creative word in the beginning, light had shone out of darkness. Light had been enshrouded in the pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night, leading the vast armies of Israel. Light blazed with awful grandeur about the Lord on Mount Sinai. Light rested over the mercy seat in the tabernacle. Light filled the temple of Solomon at its dedication. Light shone on the hills of Bethlehem when the angels brought the message of redemption to the watching shepherds.
God is light; and in the words, "I am the light of the world," Christ declared His oneness with God, and His relation to the whole human family. It was He who at the beginning had caused "the light to shine out of darkness." 2 Cor. 4:6. He is the light of sun and moon and star. He was the spiritual light that in symbol and type and prophecy had shone upon Israel. But not to the Jewish nation alone was the light given. As the sunbeams penetrate to the remotest corners of the earth, so does the light of the Sun of Righteousness shine upon every soul." {DA 464}
""I do nothing of Myself," He continued; "but as My Father hath taught Me, I speak these things. And He that sent Me is with Me: the Father hath not left Me alone; for I do always those things that please Him." He did not attempt to prove His Messianic claim, but showed His unity with God. If their minds had been open to God's love, they would have received Jesus." {DA 465.3}
The life of Jesus was symbolized in the sanctuary by the candle stick. In accordance with this symbol, Jesus says that He does nothing of himself. His life is a life received from without. He was as dependent upon the Holy Spirit to live this life as are you and me. The candle stick clearly teaches us that light (a christlike life), requires oil (The Holy Spirit).
In the very same chapter, we see both rejection and acception of The Light of The World. What is surprising is that the religious, well educated people reject their foundation of their own religion, while the ordinary woman accepts Jesus.
"Every soul that refuses to give himself to God is under the control of another power. He is not his own. He may talk of freedom, but he is in the most abject slavery. He is not allowed to see the beauty of truth, for his mind is under the control of Satan. While he flatters himself that he is following the dictates of his own judgment, he obeys the will of the prince of darkness. Christ came to break the shackles of sin-slavery from the soul. "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" sets us "free from the law of sin and death." Rom. 8:2." {DA 466}
"The Pharisees had declared themselves the children of Abraham. Jesus told them that this claim could be established only by doing the works of Abraham. The true children of Abraham would live, as he did, a life of obedience to God. They would not try to kill One who was speaking the truth that was given Him from God. In plotting against Christ, the rabbis were not doing the works of Abraham. A mere lineal descent from Abraham was of no value. Without a spiritual connection with him, which would be manifested in possessing the same spirit, and doing the same works, they were not his children."
"Again the priests and rabbis cried out against Jesus as a blasphemer. His claim to be one with God had before stirred them to take His life, and a few months later they plainly declared, "For a good work we stone Thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that Thou, being a man, makest Thyself God." John 10:33. Because He was, and avowed Himself to be, the Son of God, they were bent on destroying Him. Now many of the people, siding with the priests and rabbis, took up stones to cast at Him. "But Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by."
The Light was shining in darkness; but "the darkness apprehended it not."" John 1:5, R. V. {DA 470}
"The Pharisees had declared themselves the children of Abraham. Jesus told them that this claim could be established only by doing the works of Abraham. The true children of Abraham would live, as he did, a life of obedience to God."
The Sanctuary teaches this as does the gospel. One of the difficulties today is that so few teach this in the church. And, so few are seen living the truth. Many just don't believe it to be possible. We must believe what the Bible says and trust in Jesus to do what we cannot do.
Good to see your post, dear brother! It always is.
1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him.
Without works what we believe has no merit to it. It is through works of obedience that we do indeed show our love for God.
Jesus did not just speak and believe, He lived the life required of Him in His works of obedience right up to the cross.
Without both faith and obedience we cannot please God.
2 Timothy:
3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
This says it all.
------------------
Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
The sinner brings his lamb because he is convicted of sin and has been told to do so. There does not need to be repentance at this stage. Is this true? Now, if there is no repentance, God desires to give it. We see this in the life of Christians today. They want to serve God but have no deep repentance. They strive to do God's will but fail, not having Christ in the heart.
God has a purpose in bringing the sinner into the sanctuary. What is the purpose? To lead the sinner to repentance. How is this done? By a revelation of the love of God for the sinner while is he is a sinner. What is the great revelation of God's love? It is the cross. The sinner must be led to the foot of the cross and there he will be brought to repentance. It is just the same today.
So, let's go back to the sinner under conviction of the broken law. He must take his lamb to the sanctuary. He sees it afar off and begins his walk. What is the sight as he approaches? Is it not the white curtain? What is this to represent? The righteousness of Christ? Yes. He sees the entrance, the veil, Jesus Christ. He is walking toward Christ who is able to give him the goodness he desires, His righteousness. He must continue his coming to Christ just as he is, dirty and filthy. He may not understand yet, what God has provided, but he is trusting in God's requirements and he continues moving toward Christ. He must pass through the veil, showing that Christ is the way. Now inside the outer court, he must still walk to the altar of sacrifice with his lamb. He knows he will have to kill the innocent lamb. He is thinking about the reason why. He is taught that the lamb is a symbol just as the veil and the white curtains were. The lamb also represents Christ. He is commanded to kill the innocent lamb he brought. Let's stop here for a moment and ask a question.
Who enjoys killing? Who enjoys even killing a bug in the garden? It is sad that there is death and it is especially sad when we must do the killing. Now, move up the scale of being and imagine killing a mammal such as a lamb, a cow, a horse, or a dog. A dying horse or dog needs to be putdown to end it s suffering. But now imagine killing a healthy horse or an unblimished lamb. What was God trying to teach at the altar of sacrifice which in type represents the foot of the cross?
The sinner who is ready to confess his sin is told to confess his sin over the head of the innocent lamb thus transferring his sin in symbol to the real Lamb of God. The sinner is told the wages of sin is death, so the innocent Lamb must die in the sinners place. OH..........it is not fair for the innocent to die for the guilty. NO, it is not, but that is God's right and He does it because He loves us. Go ahead and kill HIM. NO, I will not kill the Son of God. Then you will have no part with Him. The sinner yields his heart to the God of heaven who has promised to sacrifice His Son so that the sinner may live. He kills the lamb (Jesus) who has taken his sins away. By the revelation of this love at the foot of the cross the sinner is brought to repentance, for "the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance."
The "condemnation of the law," as I understand it, is that for obedience to 613 mitsvot to grant pardon the entire Torah would have to be perfectly obeyed (which is not possible, hence the condemnation -- Gal 3:10) and is why the shedding of blood is required.
Taking it one step further: What will be placed on Satan will be the sins of every person who has ever lived, confessed, repented of or NOT. He will carry the burden of all. We on the other hand carry only our own and any sins that we have caused others to do. But Satan will be held in judgment and passed sentence for ALL. <P>Jesus blood covers every sin, repented of or not, the High Priest confessed all the sins and placed them on the scapegoat. The High Priest has no way of knowing which had been repented of, all he could do was place ALL the sins on the scapegoat. It is only if that person lived to the next atonement is it know if his sins had been repented of. As it will be on the day of judgment, we will not know who is saved or who is lost. Only the Father knows. <P>Liane
"... When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty" (The Great Controversy p. 422). -- http://www.whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc23.html
Thanks Richard,
Two points:
1. This quote brings a question I was not going to comment on when I first read it, however, you say Jesus is both the "white curtain" and the "lamb."
At Jesus' physical death that same curtain was ripped in two (Matt 27:51) by God, signifying a new way had been provided to enter the temple for forgiveness of sins (correct?). How then can this curtain reference Jesus? We might suppose that God replaced the "curtain" with the "door" -- with Jesus (John 10:27) symbolically -- but otherwise I see no way this is consistent, as our teachings must always be.
This is part of my concern with these types of interpretative teachings. Clearly there are biblical "types", "foreshadows" and so on (Abraham offering Isaac was a foreshadowing of HaShem offering Y'shua etc.), however our understandings of "types" must always be consistent with all the scriptures, otherwise we can easily get into man's wisdom rather than God's.
K thanks Richard.
Not to jump the gun... but following this line of thought I did some research and found the following that seems to confirm what was stated. Again it seems as though most of my issues with the SDA revolve around the Sanctuary teachings, in this case with the "Investigative Judgment" teachings. Ms White wrote:Quote"... When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty" (The Great Controversy p. 422). -- http://www.whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc23.html
This is very unbiblical and credits Satan, at least partially, with our salvation! Has the SDA church dropped this teaching then?
Some things may become clear, but if this is the teaching it is biblically unsupportable and denies the efficacy of Jesus' atonement.
I await your replies.
Thanks again for the time you are putting into this.
K thanks Richard.
Not to jump the gun... but following this line of thought I did some research and found the following that seems to confirm what was stated. Again it seems as though most of my issues with the SDA revolve around the Sanctuary teachings,
in this case with the "Investigative Judgment" teachings. Ms White wrote:Quote"... When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty" (The Great Controversy p. 422). -- http://www.whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc23.html
This is very unbiblical and credits Satan, at least partially, with our salvation! Has the SDA church dropped this teaching then?
Some things may become clear, but if this is the teaching it is biblically unsupportable and denies the efficacy of Jesus' atonement.
How can Jesus be represented by the veil in the Hebrew Sanctuary? If we begin with the very simple idea that God was teaching the plan of salvation through the sanctuary and its services, then we begin to look for the meaning of the symbolism being used.
The Lamb is a good example. How do we know the Lamb is Jesus? John the Baptist did not know that the Lamb had to die. Such a deception!
When the sinner brought his lamb to the sanctuary, there was only ONE way in, it was through the outer veil. Some may not see a shadow in this, but it surely it there. If salvation was to be found in the sanctuary, then how can one be wrong in saying that the only way to enter into salvation is through the only door, Jesus Christ? There are not multiple paths to God, Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life!
Jesus says "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber." God was very specific about where the lamb was to be sacrificed....
There was only one place and only one door. To do otherwise was prohibited. Jesus went on to say "He that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep." Christ is both the door and the shepherd. He enters in by Himself. It is through His own sacrifice that He becomes the shepherd of the sheep. "To Him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear His voice: and He calleth His own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when He putteth forth His own sheep, He goeth before them, and the sheep follow Him: for they know His voice."
Brother John, we are happy to study the sanctuary with you, but we must begin at the beginning. You are misunderstanding what you are reading.
There is no intent in that statement you quote to express any portion of salvation to satan.
It is Biblical. Rather that come to a premature conclusion at to the truth of the statement before an explanation is given, you need to respect our desire to work with you without bringing such a serious charge against the church. We are here to entertain questions, but not charges against the church or its teachings.
Ms White wrote: .... He will place them [the sins] upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty..."
The one who bears the final penalty is not involved in our salvation? The scapegoat was directly involved in the forgiveness of sins in the sanctuary rites. Without that role the sins would have remained with the people. How does this teaching not give Satan a role in our salvation as the sin bearer?
Shalom and Maranatha,
~ John of AllFaith
I am sorry that you did not respond to my posts on the Jesus being the door. [/ul]
I did respond to this, in post 9 above. I replied:QuoteI didn't say Jesus is not the only way to forgiveness. I said that identifying him with the curtain is not consistent biblically because the purpose of that curtain was not the same as the purpose of Y'shua as the door. Jesus as the door grants entrance to the sanctuary to all who approach him in faith (John 3:16,17; Rev 3:8 etc) whereas the purpose of the temple curtain was to bar those who were unworthy of entering. Only Jews could pass through the curtain and then only under certain conditions and preparations. For example:
Deuteronmy 23:1 He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD.
Deu 23:2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.
Deu 23:3 An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever:
To pass through the curtain they had to already be ritually clean and authorized.
On the other hand, anyone and everyone can approach God through Jesus "just as I am without one plea." When the curtain was rent the sanctuary was thrown open so that all could enter. According to Adventist doctrine who enters the heavenly sanctuary? Not just anyone. I don't see how applying this curtain to Jesus works biblically or even according to SDA doctrine.
Jesus is the door etc. but interpreting him as the curtain of the temple does not fit what we know about the curtain and Jesus as the door.
3. Jesus was the essential figure in the plan of salvation and while nearly every part of the sanctuary and its services symbolised Jesus, yet the lava represented the Holy Spirit, the Shekina glory was God
Hi Richard,
In answer to my query, ‘Am I making sense?’ you answer ‘No, I am afraid not. You said that Jesus was the Lamb of God. Do you not believe that when the lamb was slain in the outer court that it was a symbol of Jesus being slain on account of our sins?
No, I do not. The lamb that was slain as a symbol of Jesus been slain on account of our sins was the daily morning and evening lamb of God offered by the priests and at the annual Passover service
The daily individual Hebrew’s offerings were a covenantal consequence of the daily offering of the lamb of God, not a repetition of it.
Consider please the following regarding the meaning of the Hebrew sanctuary.
1. The Hebrew sanctuary presented God’s plan for the salvation of mankind and the destruction of sin. The priest’s daily morning and evening continually burning offering of the lamb of God kept open the access to God.
2. The origins of the sanctuary service go right back to Eden, but at Sinai it became a national form of service as opposed to something performed by the patriarchal of each family.
3. Jesus was the essential figure in the plan of salvation and while nearly every part of the sanctuary and its services symbolised Jesus, yet the lava represented the Holy Spirit, the Shekina glory was God
4. The death of Jesus, symbolised in the Passover, was the first and essential act of the seven acts of God symbolised in the seven annual feasts of the sanctuary.
5. The various offerings required of the individual nearly all concerned ceremonial defilement of both himself and his family. It was only adult males who could bring offerings. The purpose of these offerings was to maintain covenant relationship, for only while they were in the covenant were they covered by the daily offering of the lamb of God.
6. There were no offerings for deliberate, wilful breaking of the commandments.
Apart from Passover, the popular conception of a daily stream of lambs being sacrificed by repentant Hebrews is not Biblical.
7. We do not have to have righteousness for salvation, it is by God’s grace we are saved. It will not be till this mortal puts on immortality and this corruption puts on incorruption that we will have a righteousness of our own.
God bless, Ian
Hi Richard,
This is a hot topic and so it should be. Amen
I see many postings since the one I am here replying too, I hope my thoughts are still revelant to where the discussion has come?
You ask for clarification concerning my contention that the Bible teaches that there was no sanctuary sacrifice available for an Old covenant believer who deliberately broke the commandments.
You write:- ‘This thought has come up before. I have never heard a good explanation of how these deliberate sins could be forgiven if there were no sacrifice made for them. Can you explain your thinking on this, Brother Ian? Thank you’.
As always, the challenge delights me. I will try my best to meet it.
My reply also an attempt to respond to Brother Steve Billiter’s response to my post.
How is sin forgiven?
It is always God’s initiative.
In Old Testament times it was faith in the promise of God that He would provide a Redeemer.
In New Testament times it is faith that Jesus Christ is that Redeemer.
Forgiveness is and ever has been a matter of a faith response to God’s grace. It is never His response to our worth or works. It is always God’s initiative.
Pagan thinking, both ancient and modern, believes we can make an offering that atones for our sin. It is also imbedded in the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church.
The sanctuary sacrifice that atoned for sin was the priest’s offering of the morning and evening sacrifice of the lamb of God.
It was not the peoples’ sacrifice, it was God’s sacrifice.
The individual Israelite’s offerings were for ceremonial defilement and were for the purpose of keeping them in covenant relationship, under the covering of this morning and evening continually burning offering.
It was the mediation of the priests that provided salvation and this culminated in the high priest’s ministry on the Day of Atonement.
Again I draw your attention to the RC church teaching that salvation comes through the church and the mediation of the priest.
An Israelite’s assurance was in being in the covenant, being born an Israelite, being circumcised and being accepted into the covenant responsibilities when he became of age.
Isn’t this true of you and I as Christians? We are saved, are we not, by being born again in Christ, being in the New Covenant? We are not saved by any sacrifice we make, that would be salvation by works. Salvation is only and only ever has been by faith in the Redeemer, the Lamb of God.
An Israelite’s covenant assurance was conditional on the Israelite being careful to maintain his covenant relationship. That was maintained by his attention to providing the offerings required for ceremonial defilement such as touching a dead body, birth of a child etc etc.
His covenant relationship was tested once a year on the Day of Atonement.
There was provision for becoming aware of having unintentionally broken the commandments. Leviticus 4, Numbers 15:22-31, Hebrews 9:7.
But when David was faced with his wilful adultery and murder, Ps 51, there was no avenue of forgiveness through sanctuary offerings. It wouldn’t matter how many thousand sheep he sacrificed, his action had separated him, cut him off from the covenant privileges.
David suddenly recognised his position of separation from covenant protection and did the only thing he could do. He humbled his heart and pled for God’s forgiveness, and for his restoration to covenant membership.
Ps 51, ‘according to your loving kindness…greatness..compassion’. ’create in me a clean heart’, ‘take not your Holy Spirit from me’.
As always, God answered such a prayer and David was accepted back into covenant relationship and once again covered by the Lamb of God.
That is how I understand it, but I am also aware that this is a huge subject with many, many grey areas, so I don’t offer these thoughts as definitive answers, just discussion points.
God bless,
Ian
As I understand it you are saying that the 'evangelical gospel' teaches that santification is an ongoing experience, 'the work of a lifetime', while you believe we are sanctified when we are justified?
I do know that we are counseled to thoroughly study the sanctuary service system so that we will be grounded firmly in the truth and not deceived by some false gospel that is being presented by so many today.
My daughter and I will be starting a study sometime in March on the Sanctuary. Can anyone suggest materials that would be good to get us started. We have the book by EGW called "Christ in His Sanctuary." and of course we will use the bible. Are there other sources you would recommend? We don't want just surface information.
We will use this forum at times for your input.
My daughter and I will be starting a study sometime in March on the Sanctuary. Can anyone suggest materials that would be good to get us started.
Is it sold at the ABC?