Post by: Richard Myers on March 26, 2000, 06:14:00 AM
Such an important verse. It reveals the great desire of our God. Shall we learn more of the reasons why God wanted the Hebrews to build a sanctuary in the midst of their nation? The Book of Daniel has been opened for our edification. If we are to benefit from the ministry of our Lord and Saviour, then we need to understand what He is doing for us today as our high priest. Where is Jesus and what is He doing? This we may know as we study the services of the Hebrew Sanctuary that were a type of the ministry of Jesus Christ.
Post by: Avalee Lohman on March 26, 2000, 03:35:00 PM
In The Blessed Hope
Avalee
Post by: Clive Nevell on March 26, 2000, 10:12:00 PM
1844, Sanctuary need to be diligently studied by every church member, I do not know very much about them but am doing my best to do further study in this area.
The Sanctuary in the wildernee was set up as a pattern for the Plan of Salvation. Without first recognising this point it is too easy to do away with the doctrine and feel no guilt at all in it's demise.
Gen. 3:14-19 please read it as this is the recovery plan. It involves the death of the Son of God, forgiveness of sin, ministry of thwe Holy Spirit and a final Judgement. Jude tells us in verse 14 & 15 that Enoch believed in the judgement.
Later god revealed more in the symbolism in the sanctuary service. The sacrificial, mediatorial and judicial atonements brought to light in the sanctuary service vividly impressed the minds of the Israelite.
Atonement is completed in three stages.
(1) The sacrifice of the animal Lev.17:11
(2) Lev. 4 tells us what was to be done in the case of the sin offering for ignorance, in the case of priests, and by the whole of the congregation. There are three players here, the sinner, the sacrifice, and the officiating priest.
The sinners work is to confess his sin and he did this by laying his hand on the head of the of the offering. The sacrifice yields its life as substitute for the guilty one. The priest performs a work of meditation on behalf of the penitent one.
(Sorry I have to go, off to a begginers computer class, will add some more later)
Regards
Clive
Post by: Clive Nevell on March 27, 2000, 01:52:00 AM
The process of atonment is not complete with the sacrifice but the sacrifice is essential to the process.
(3) This takes place on the annual day of atonement (see Lev.16:29-34; 23:27-32
It centres in the second apartment or most holy place and for us commenced in 1844. This is the third phase of the process of reconciliation, after which issues are settled and Christ comes to reward every man according to his works (Heb.9:28; Rev.22:12)G.C. p.489 "The intercession of Christ in man's behalf in the sanctuary above is as essential to the plan of salvation as was His death upon the cross. By His death he bagan a work, which after His resurrection he ascended to complete in heaven."
There must be many members who have much knowledge on this subject, I would be interested to see what is written on this matter.
There is a very good video out on this subject "If I had one more serman to preach" by Dick Duerksen He goes into great detail to show that every piece of sanctuary furniture pointed to Christ, the door, the shew bread the lot all was symbolic of Jesus.
This showed the Jews the "Plan of Salvation"
Regards
Clive
Post by: Richard Myers on March 27, 2000, 05:17:00 AM
Post by: charlene on March 27, 2000, 07:45:00 AM
The Door is Christ and as we enter..it indicates we have accepted His sacrifice."The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
Recieving this sacrifice as done for us..we recieve the gift of confession and repentence and forgivness....this is only step one, for the living...we can not stop here, unless we die here before we can go further. [thief on cross].
The beginning of course, is responding to the wooing of the Holy Spirit, then seeking, opening the Door to Jesus. He will begin to sup with us. I love this picture. The Courtyard experience, sacrifice and cleansing precedes our walk on into the sanctuary apartments. This is Justification.
Can we stay out here and be saved???
------------------
charlene
Post by: Richard Myers on March 28, 2000, 05:08:00 AM
As the sinner brought his lamb to be slain, he had to enter through the door into the courtyard where the lamb would be killed. It is important to note that the lamb has not been killed when the door is passed through, and the sinner has not come to the altar of sacrifice yet. What can we learn from this, and what leads us to understand the door is a representation of Jesus?
Post by: Clive Nevell on March 29, 2000, 10:26:00 AM
Remember the court yard was fenced and there was no way of going in except through the door (JESUS CHRIST). Same today, heaven is only obtained through JESUS CHRIST. Climbing over the fence will not gain entry into the earthly courtyard or into heaven when Christ comes again.
When inside the lamb was slain by the sinner, that is all we have done, slain the lamb and then the blood was applied. It was not all over when the lamb was slain. So today the cross was not the end but the start.
Regards
Clive
Post by: Allan F on May 14, 2000, 08:19:00 AM
Every step into the sanctuary is important for our salvation. It is not only the cross. Let me try to explain why:
The altar:
Here we get forgiveness for our sins. Every christian believe that our sins must be forgiven in order to enter Heaven. We really need the cross. But do we have to go further?
The laver:
Cleansing of the heart, new birth. "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3. We see that we also need this experience in order to enter Heaven.
The Holy place:
That is sanctification. Do we also need this experience? "Follow after peace with all men,
and the sanctification without which no man shall see the Lord" Heb 12:14. We see that we
also need sanctification in order to get to Heaven.
The most Holy place:
Everyone who enter Heaven will have been into the investigative judgement. But only those
who claim (or once have claimed) to be a child of God, will come into this judgement. The others will not come into it. So, only those who have been into this investigative judgement and have been acquited, will come to Heaven.
But, let us begin with the beginning.
What made the sinner go into the courtyard? I believe it must have been quite humiliating for the sinner to go all the way through the camp and into the courtyard together with his lamb.
"The light shining from the cross (altar) reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to himself (John 12:32). If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour" (DA 175).
"God lays heavy burdens upon the conscience of the wrongdoer, and pierces the soul with
arrows of conviction. The ministering angels present to him the fearful judgments of God to deepen the sense of need, and prompt the cry, "What must I do to be saved?" (DA 104).
If the sinner is coming to the altar/cross for any other reason, he is coming in vain.
Psalms 34:18 : "The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit." Only these kind of people is God able to save. God will lead us to the cross. That is a wonderful promise. If we have not yet been there, let us spend much time with Jesus. He will soften the heart.
"The very first and the most important thing is to melt and subdue the soul by presenting our Lord Jesus Christ as the sinbearer, the sinpardoning Saviour, making the gospel as clear as possible" (Ev 264)
When the Israelite entered through the door into the courtyard, he was immediately covered by the white robe of the righteousness of christ, which was symbolized by the white fence of linen, that surrounded the sanctuary. This is a promise to us. When we have been convicted of sin, and want to go to the one we have wronged, if we then (for example) died before we had opportunity to confess and ask of forgiveness to the one we had wronged, God will judge us after what we would have done, if we had had more time. But God must have cleansed the heart in order to be saved (please correct me if I am wrong on this Richard, or anyone else).
When the sinner killed his lamb, he knew that one day a saviour would die in his place. And when the priest sprinkled the blood, I believe that another picture could come up in his mind: Just before exodus the Israelites was saved from the angel who killed all the firstborns in the families that had not sprinkled blood on their doorframe.
The only reason why people survived, was because they had made use of the blood.
This should also remind us, that only those who make use of the blood of the lamb, have any hope of salvation. For the firstborn, there was no other way out of Egypt than through the blood of the lamb.
So it is today. If we want to escape from the spiritually Egypt (Rev. 11:8) which is sin an ungodliness, we too must make use of the blood of Christ. If Jesus had not died for us, we would have no possibility to escape sin.
The cross was not all in the plan of salvation. But without it, we would never be made righteous, and have no hope of Heaven.
God knew this. But he took the chance and sent his only son. And he did it!
Let us praise him. :)
Allan F
Post by: Gerry C. Wagoner on May 15, 2000, 07:05:00 PM
Post by: Gerry Buck on May 16, 2000, 06:48:00 AM
Without the spilling of blood there is no forgiveness.
When a person falls into deep water and can't swim,a life preserver is thrown to them.....safety is there,but,if they refuse to 'grab hold' of it,they will drown.
The cross is that life preserver,it is there,but,if we reject it.......how can we be saved?
We need to 'grab hold' of it,or,drown.
------------------
He is LORD!
May He come soon.
Gerry
Post by: Allan F on May 16, 2000, 10:18:00 AM
Allan F
Post by: Allan F on May 19, 2000, 12:49:00 PM
Even when we sin, God loves us very much. But he hates sin, because it destroys us in one or another way. So when these two are together (sin and man), God wants to separate the sin from the man because he loves us:
"O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?" (Jer 4:14)
A wise woman in Israel once said: "..neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him" (2Sam 14:14). I believe that the experience at the altar and our next step into the sanctuary will support these words.
Between the altar and the tabernacle there was a LAVER filled with water. Here, the priests washed them selves before entering into the tabernacle. What does this symbolize?
Usually we wash our selves in order to be clean. So the laver has to symbolize some form for cleansing. Does the Bible say something about a cleansing of man, symbolized by water? Yes, it does:
"Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your
filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them" (Eze 36:25-27).
So as the water cleanses the outside, God, by the Holy Spirit cleanses the inside.
Let us also go to the NT. In Tit 3:3-7 Paul is telling Titus about his own past: "For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another." But all this changed. How? "But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying".
By the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Gost, God cleanses the heart from
sin. Can you see the parallell to the sanctuary?
Jesus too, described this cleansing of the heart and its necessity: "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God... Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (Jn 3:3.5).
And what did he say to Peter?: "If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me" (Jn 13:8).
So in the laver God cleanses us from sin. Davids prayer: "Create in me a clean heart" was answered in the "laver experience".
But, maybe you will doubt that your thoughts, feelings and attitude can change. If it is so, let Paul encourage you by reading 1Cor 6:9-11. Even if we have many bad habits God is able to create a new heart:
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived:
neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."
In these verses Paul says that it is hope even for drunkards, prostitutes and homosexuals. They have been washed. They have been made righteous. Not only declared righteous, but also made righteous by the creative power of the Holy Spirit.
If God is able to cleans us from such sins, should we not then be of good courage and
have faith in Gods word. But faith is needed in order for the cleansing to take place. In Acts 15:9 Peter says that God is "..purifying their hearts BY FAITH."
Let us go back to the sanctuary. The laver, which was placed in the courtyard was later
called the Sea. And maybe when the Israelites saw the laver, they were reminded of the
experience at (in) the Red sea. What happened there, was one of the greatest miracles God
did for the Israelites. God wanted to lead the Isarelites out of Egypt and into Canaan. In the Bible, Egypt symbolizes sin and ungodliness. Therefore we may say that God wants to deliver us from the spiritual Egypt. And how does He do that? As the Israelites were saved from the egyptians by walking through the Red Sea, God saves us from sin and the power of Satan when we are born of water and of the spirit, in the laver.
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life" (Rom 6:3.4).
Why was the laver placed out in the courtyard and not in the Holy place? Isn't it because
people are to be clean when entering the Holy place? In 2.Chr 23:19 we read that "he
(Jehoiada) set the porters at the gates of the house of the LORD, that none which was
unclean in any thing should enter in."
So, in order for us to enter the Holy place, we must have been at the altar (forgiveness) and at the laver (cleansing of the heart).
Heb 10,19-22: "Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water."
To summarize the courtyard-experience, I want to use this bible verse:
"IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS, HE IS FAITHFUL AND JUST TO FORGIVE US OUR SINS, AND TO CLEANS US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS" (1.Jn 1:9).
Allan F
Post by: Mr Jones on May 21, 2000, 02:36:00 AM
"Ellen White and other pioneers of the church believed that the heavenly sanctuary was exactly what the Bible said it was - a very real place with three distinct structures : a courtyard, a holy place, and a most holy place............
The courtyard depicts repentence and confession of sin. The holy place adds to this Christ's ministry of sanctification, where God's people accept His imparted righteousness, with all the behavioral changes this implies. His Holy Place ministry is therefore a vital part of preparing His people for the judgement. In turn, the Most Holy Place reveals the judgement itself, in which the lives of those claiming salvation are compared with a process through which every believer, in every era, has to go. Leave one element out, and the whole thing falls apart."
amen and AMEN
to think the choice is all ours to confess [outer court], be refined and prepared[holy place], and judged [most holy place]. We have the choice. I often shudder at the choices I make when I realise I have thrown it back at God when He has given me SO many chances. Let's pray we make the right choice.
God Bless
------------------
"WATCH THE LAMB"
[This message has been edited by Mr Jones (edited 05-21-2000).]
Post by: Gerry C. Wagoner on May 21, 2000, 05:16:00 AM
Say, that's pretty good. Thanks for posting it.
gcw
Post by: Mr Jones on May 22, 2000, 05:17:00 AM
Absolutely brilliant reading. A must for any who have doubts about our wonderful message.
FORWARD ON OUR KNEES
[This message has been edited by Mr Jones (edited 05-22-2000).]
Post by: M.A. Crawford on May 28, 2000, 04:58:00 PM
We have had so many good posts on the sanctuary and its various sections and apartments. I would like to approach my discussion on it from a slightly different viewpoint. In addition to what already has been said, I believe God gave us the earthly sanctuary to demonstrate His love for mankind. Everything about it pointed to Christ and His work of Atonement He was to perform in the Heavenly Sanctuary on our behalf as our High Priest. The earthly sanctuary was designed to ever keep before us the fact that "God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son" to die in our stead that we might have another chance at eternal life. What love! And what does this say to us today? What is the personal point in all of this?
All of us (and I am including myself) need to demonstrate more of the love of God in our own lives as we interact with others on a daily basis. I am firmly convinced this is the key to our receiving the Christlikeness that is so powerful where influencing others are concerned. I believe that many Seventh-day Adventists in our churches are "Sad"ventists because they do not have the love of Jesus in their hearts as they should. I say that because God has blessed many of us in these forums with spiritual wisdom and understanding, but some of us have not shared this with others. I believe God has given us what we spiritually possess in order that we may "let our light shine," before men and women, boys and girls, as we uplift Jesus before them.
We don't have to go across town or across the country. There are many in our local churches who need evangelizing, and I believe with all my heart that God has given to us what He has given us in order that we might help our brothers and sisters who are not as strong in the faith as they should be to "grow in grace," and become more like Jesus in their everyday living.
We effectively teach---not so much by sermons, doctrinal discussions, and debates---but, by example. This is how Jesus taught us. He came to this world and gave us an example as to how we should live. And because of that, "He that saith he abideth in him ought himself so to walk, even as he walked" (1 John 2:6).
M.A.
Post by: Liane H on May 28, 2000, 08:29:00 PM
It is one of the most treasured teaching in our church and I feel sorry for those that do not understand it or make light of it. To think in our churches that there are some that have become members and never have heard of it.
I just wanted to pass on my favorite verse in the bible. I think it says alot about our God and it brings us to the sanctuary.
Psalm 27:4.
One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after: that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to enquire in His temple.
Every aspect of the temple and the sanctuary in it shows us the beauty of God's character and His love for us.
Liane
Post by: Richard Myers on May 29, 2000, 06:44:00 AM
Post by: Allan F on May 29, 2000, 12:43:00 PM
Many (me included!) who start reading through the Bible, stop when they come to Exo.25 and the history of the Sanctuary because this subject is all so boring. Or, maybe it isn't? Why have God let this subject have as much place in the Bible as the four gospels?
One thing with the Sanctuary which I appreciate very much, is the symbols. Unlike what we often find in our days christianity, we find no meaningless phrases in the sanctuary. Every item or symbol there, have a specific meaning. Everything reveal Gods plan , his purposes and his character.
There are many, so many things to learn from the sanctuary and its service, and the main message of it is of course the gospel. And I feel it is important to say that we should learn the basics before going into all the details, because I have seen people who have great knowledge in the sanctuary service, are coming up with a false gospel. It is really possible to study this subject for years and still miss the main thing. With "basics" I mean what the altar, laver, the main items in the Holy and the most holy place mean to us.
When Jesus was on this planet he again taught the people mainly in symbols. And the main theme in the parables was also this time the gospel. One reason why he used parables, I believe was because he not allways wanted to give his message "with teaspoons". He wanted people to think and reflect over his teaching and to draw conclusions. We too (of good purposes of course) may sometimes also want to "feed" the people with teaspoons in order for them not to miss any detail. I think, at least I have an important lesson to learn here. But of course he would explain if the people didn't understand.
May God bless our efforts in understanding and sharing the wonderful sanctuary message.
Allan F
Post by: Liane H on May 31, 2000, 06:28:00 PM
I remember several years ago when I was reading about the sanctuary I was studying the most holy place. I guess it must have spilled over into my sleep time because when I awaken in the morning during that time when you awake, but stil asleep the image of the holy place from up above was visable to me.
The point that I became aware of was that when God looked down at the most holy place from (above) what was the first thing he would see? The ark, but on top of the ark he would see the angels and the mercy seat. It helped me to realize that angels are ever present in the most holy place in heaven as well as the earthly one as well. But the point that was brought home to me was the fact that God sees the mercy seat before he sees the law. The law is within the ark itself. There must be a point to this fact that it is inside the ark instead of outside. It must be before God even judges us by the law, He considers the mercy. Mercy without justice is not justice.
This gave me much peace when I saw this at a time in my life when I needed it most, that we have such a loving God that he looks at all aspects of the person with mercy before he passes judgment.
Does anyone have any other thoughts on this??
Post by: Richard Myers on May 31, 2000, 07:42:00 PM
Post by: Richard Myers on August 27, 2000, 07:36:00 AM
The sinner brings his lamb because he is convicted of sin and has been told to do so. There does not need to be repentance at this stage. Is this true? Now, if there is no repentance, God desires to give it. We see this in the life of Christians today. They want to serve God but have no deep repentance. They strive to do God's will but fail, not having Christ in the heart.
God has a purpose in bringing the sinner into the sanctuary. What is the purpose? To lead the sinner to repentance. How is this done? By a revelation of the love of God for the sinner while is he is a sinner. What is the great revelation of God's love? It is the cross. The sinner must be led to the foot of the cross and there he will be brought to repentance. It is just the same today.
So, let's go back to the sinner under conviction of the broken law. He must take his lamb to the sanctuary. He sees it afar off and begins his walk. What is the sight as he approaches? Is it not the white curtain? What is this to represent? The righteousness of Christ? Yes. He sees the entrance, the veil, Jesus Christ. He is walking toward Christ who is able to give him the goodness he desires, His righteousness. He must continue his coming to Christ just as he is, dirty and filthy. He may not understand yet, what God has provided, but he is trusting in God's requirements and he continues moving toward Christ. He must pass through the veil, showing that Christ is the way. Now inside the outer court, he must still walk to the altar of sacrifice with his lamb. He knows he will have to kill the innocent lamb. He is thinking about the reason why. He is taught that the lamb is a symbol just as the veil and the white curtains were. The lamb also represents Christ. He is commanded to kill the innocent lamb he brought. Let's stop here for a moment and ask a question.
Who enjoys killing? Who enjoys even killing a bug in the garden? It is sad that there is death and it is especially sad when we must do the killing. Now, move up the scale of being and imagine killing a mammal such as a lamb, a cow, a horse, or a dog. A dying horse or dog needs to be putdown to end it s suffering. But now imagine killing a healthy horse or an unblimished lamb. What was God trying to teach at the altar of sacrifice which in type represents the foot of the cross?
The sinner who is ready to confess his sin is told to confess his sin over the head of the innocent lamb thus transferring his sin in symbol to the real Lamb of God. The sinner is told the wages of sin is death, so the innocent Lamb must die in the sinners place. OH..........it is not fair for the innocent to die for the guilty. NO, it is not, but that is God's right and He does it because He loves us. Go ahead and kill HIM. NO, I will not kill the Son of God. Then you will have no part with Him. The sinner yields his heart to the God of heaven who has promised to sacrifice His Son so that the sinner may live. He kills the lamb (Jesus) who has taken his sins away. By the revelation of this love at the foot of the cross the sinner is brought to repentance, for "the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance."
Post by: Liane H on August 27, 2000, 10:17:00 AM
Because the Sanctuary is very simple. Yes it is complex as well, and there are so many many wonderful things to learn, but I have found that in all that is said and done it is still very simple.
The Sanctuary is the very center of Heaven where God dwells. Inside of it's walls are all the tools I need for salvation and safty for our eternal life. I can think of no safer place to go. It is not a physical place, but a place in my mind where God dwells in my life. I go there when I feel lost or unsafe. Within it's walls is everything I need to know about God. How fair He is, how just He is, and how caring He is.
Outside, is the world and sin and all the things that can destroy me. When I leave the Sanctuary of God, He has given me the tools and the peace to go out and face all there is to face in the world. I know that I can come back within it's walls anytime, anyplace and feel safe again because God is waiting for me there. You see I can take the Sanctuary with me wherever I go. It is not set in stone or physical in any form.
God is truly wonderful. He knew that we needed such a place. That is what makes the Seventh-day Adventist teachings so wonderful. What church really knows or understands those things. They all have a desorted view. He gave us the lost truths that the Jews once had, but even more, because in it we see all that Christ is and will be.
Post by: R Myers on September 23, 2000, 09:32:00 PM
I have a question before we go on. We (my wife and I) are discussing the particulars of the building on earth and we have not been able to find an "expert" to tell us why the roof is portrayed the way it is in all of the renderings we have seen. So far none have given us a Biblical explanation for their design. We are going to render the Tabernacle accurately and will not speculate. If someone has the knowledge or knows of someone who might have it we would appreciate the information.
The question is as to the pitch of the roof. Was it flat or pitched? We believe it was pitched. Who has any good ideas?
Post by: Joan Rügemer on September 25, 2000, 11:32:00 AM
Well, I sent off to you a picture scanned in on my 'new possession' ....an AGFA scanner. It was of the Tabernacle in the wilderness. Me getting all flustered with the new fangle techniques and not understanding how megs of pickles workout on the other end of sending a picture email...sure gave you a 'sauer' experience as you tried to download and your whole PC operating system crashed.
So now I know I shouldn't send someone something with 8 megs all at the same time.
;D noaj ;D
(that's me standing in the corner but still grinning)
Post by: M.A. Crawford on September 25, 2000, 01:11:00 PM
M.A.
Post by: M.A. Crawford on September 26, 2000, 01:55:00 PM
We have outstanding opportunities in our various churches to speak up and speak out and help those who are not quite as strong in the faith to grow spiritually. We are to always keep before them Jesus Christ and the Word of God as the only means of salvation.
Weakness results from LACK OF EXERCISE! We are to exercise our faith by LIVING OUT the example of Christ in our everyday living. Our people need to know that head knowledge is not enough. Knowing what is right and doing what is right are not one and the same. Also, lip service will avail us nothing (and we certainly have a lot of that among some Seventh-day Adventists). We demonstrate our love for God by ordering our lives after His Divine Likeness in every department of our lives.
We have a "missionary work" to do right within our own churches. Let us cause the God of Heaven to give us a smile of approval as He sees us helping, sharing, and caring as we interact with one another.
M.A.
Post by: Allan F on October 03, 2000, 11:37:00 AM
Thank you for your thoughts about the sanctuary Richard. God has given us a wonderful revelation of his thoughts and care for us through the sanctuary service. It would be good if other denominations also would make use of it.
About the courtyard, I am not sure what is symbolized in the very moment I pass through the gate. If I (out in the camp) decide to go to the tabernacle, what happens in may life when I go through the gate? I know that the gate symbolizes Christ, but what is the difference in my life one step before entering, and my first step into the sanctuary? Is it the surrendering of the will? I would really like to get comments on this.
Allan F :)
Post by: Richard Myers on October 03, 2000, 09:35:00 PM
We have missed you! We would be pleased to know how things are progressing in Norway. :) Maybe in the Social Hall you could share a little with us. :)
Richard
Post by: Dugald T Lewis MD on October 08, 2000, 07:42:00 PM
My first indepth study of the sanctuary begins this month as I have just come across a book called "The Sancturay Service" written by M.L Andreasen and published in 1937 and 1947 by the Review and Herald Publishing Assn. Anyone ever read this? I find it to be very good.
Sincerely
Dugald
Post by: Richard Myers on October 17, 2000, 07:26:00 AM
Richard
Post by: Harry Elliott on March 02, 2001, 09:20:00 PM
Then decades later I discovered that the entire description of the Day of Atonement was in a single chapter! Leviticus 16. I realized that ANYBODY--even me-- can master one chapter.
So I took a pen and outlined exactly what happened on that day, in the exact order. I higly recommend the experience to every Adventist. The chapter is just convoluted enough that you can't seem to get the order straight without working it out on paper.
For instance, I found out that only one-third of the sanctuary had been cleansed when the High Priest came out of the Holiest for the last time. And that there was more atonement to be done AFTER the scape goat was released.
I'd love to see some discussion of these details.
Post by: Liane H on March 03, 2001, 06:38:00 AM
WendyL, the moderator and I went through Leviticus 16 as well. After church this afternoon I will share with you some of the very things we learned. We came to the same conclusion that you did.
I agree it is a chapter that needs to be explored more deeply. Just that one chapter is a wealth of knowledge and truth.
Example to me, which floored me when I looked up all the main words from the concordance, that the word Atonement is the key word throughout the chapter, but when you look this word up, you find that sometimes it is applied to expiation and sometimes to purge. Two different meanings. There is even one place where it means to cover only.
It opened a whole new meaning of that chapter to me. I have come to know that the word, if studied much, can give you so many layers upon layers of knowledge and truth that most never come to know. We have only begun, what riches await us for all eternity.
Liane
Post by: Richard Myers on March 03, 2001, 06:58:00 AM
We would like for you to share your study as long as it is in keeping with what we believe as a people. If there is something new or different, we would like to hear this, but please do not "teach" it as so often is the case with many who go contrary to the truth.
We will be jumping over quite a bit, but that is alright. Let me see if I can establish a bridge for you.
The earthly sanctuary represented the heavenly sanctuary and the ministry of our High Priest, Jesus Christ. Instructions were first given to Adam and Eve and their children to make sacrifice to learn of God's love and the plan of salvation. After a long period of bondage in Egypt, when God's people were not permitted to make sacrifice and the associated truths mostly forgotten, God instituted the ceremonial laws that required the building of the tabernacle and the daily and yearly services. This system of sacrifices was not a direct means of salvation, ("for it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins) but was the "teaching method" that God chose to impart the knowledge of the plan of salvation. In the sanctuary service was revealed the love of God towards sinful man, while he is yet a sinner. It is the revelation of this love that converts the sinner. The plan of salvation involved more than the redemption of sinful man. In the Hebrew sanctuary we find a true and accurate description of the work going on in heaven and earth to safely establish God's government for eternity.
The Hebrew sanctuary had two divisions, a daily and a yearly service. The daily service was performed at the altar of burnt offering in the court of the tablernacle and in the holy place. The yearly service took place in the Most Holy Place.
Before Brother Harry begins a description of the "yearly" service, let us make a brief reveiw of the "daily" service.
Richard
Post by: Richard Myers on March 03, 2001, 08:07:00 AM
Every morning and evening a lamb of a year old was burned upon the altar, with its appropriate meat offering, thus symbolizing the daily consecration of the nation to Jehovah, and their constant dependence upon the atoning blood of Christ. God expressly directed that every offering presented for the service of the sanctuary should be "without blemish." Exodus 12:5. The priests were to examine all animals brought as a sacrifice, and were to reject every one in which a defect was discovered. Only an offering "without blemish" could be a symbol of His perfect purity who was to offer Himself as "a lamb without blemish and without spot." 1 Peter 1:19. The apostle Paul points to these sacrifices as an illustration of what the followers of Christ are to become. He says, "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." Romans 12:1. We are to give ourselves to the service of God, and we should seek to make the offering as nearly perfect as possible. God will not be pleased with anything less than the best we can offer. Those who love Him with all the heart, will desire to give Him the best service of the life, and they will be constantly seeking to bring every power of their being into harmony with the laws that will promote their ability to do His will."
In the offering of incense the priest was brought more directly into the presence of God than in any other act of the daily
ministration. As the inner veil of the sanctuary did no extend to the top of the building, the glory of God, which was manifested above the mercy seat, was partially visible from the first apartment.
When the priest offered incense before the Lord, he looked toward the ark; and as the cloud of incense arose, the divine glory
descended upon the mercy seat and filled the most holy place, and often so filled both apartments that the priest was obliged to retire to the door of the tabernacle. As in that typical service the priest looked by faith to the mercy seat which he could not
see, so the people of God are now to direct their prayers to Christ, their great High Priest, who, unseen by human vision, is pleading in their behalf in the sanctuary above."
The incense, ascending with the prayers of Israel, represents the merits and intercession of Christ, His perfect righteousness, which through faith is imputed to His people, and which can alone make the worship of sinful beings acceptable to God.
Before the veil of the most holy place was an altar of perpetual intercession, before the holy, an altar of continual atonement. By blood and by incense God was to be approached--symbols pointing to the great Mediator, through whom sinners may approach Jehovah, and through whom alone mercy and salvation can be granted to the repentant, believing soul."
PP
[This message has been edited by Richard Myers (edited 03-03-2001).]
Post by: Richard Myers on March 03, 2001, 02:39:00 PM
The blood of Christ, while it was to release the repentant sinner from the condemnation of the law, was not to cancel the sin; it would stand on record in the sanctuary until the final atonement; so in the type the blood of the sin offering removed the sin from the penitent, but it rested in the sanctuary until the Day of Atonement.
In the great day of final award, the dead are to be "judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Revelation 20:12. Then by virtue of the atoning blood of Christ, the sins of all the truly penitent will be blotted from the books of heaven. Thus the sanctuary will be freed, or cleansed, from the record of sin. In the type, this great work of atonement, or blotting out of sins, was represented by the services of the Day of Atonement--the cleansing of the earthly sanctuary, which was accomplished by the removal, by virtue of the blood of the sin offering, of the sins by which it had been polluted.
As in the final atonement the sins of the truly penitent are to be blotted from the records of heaven, no more to be remembered or come into mind, so in the type they were borne away into the wilderness, forever separated from the congregation.
Since Satan is the originator of sin, the direct instigator of all the sins that caused the death of the Son of God, justice demands that Satan shall suffer the final punishment. Christ's work for the redemption of men and the purification of the universe from sin will be closed by the removal of sin from the heavenly sanctuary and the placing of these sins upon Satan, who will bear the final penalty. So in the typical service, the yearly round of ministration closed with the purification of the sanctuary, and the confessing of the sins on the head of the scapegoat.
Thus in the ministration of the tabernacle, and of the temple that afterward took its place, the people were taught each day the great truths relative to Christ's death and ministration, and once each year their minds were carried forward to the closing events of the great controversy between Christ and Satan, the final purification of the universe from sin and sinners.
Post by: DavidTBattler on March 04, 2001, 10:43:00 PM
One of the things that really jumped out at me can best be described by the following question:
"What was the significance of the pillars of the porch in the earthly sanctuary?"
I am going to leave it here for a short bit, to see what others come up with. The answer is directly related to the topic at hand. :)
------------------
"...We believe that through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, we shall be saved..." (Acts 15:11).
Your brother in Christ
David T. Battler
Post by: Richard Myers on March 05, 2001, 08:30:00 PM
What is a "pillar"? Is it not that upon which the main structure hangs? A pillar is the main support of structure. Now, the Hebrew sanctuary had purpose. It was to teach the Hebrews and others of the plan of salvation and of God's grace and power to restore the universe to a safe state.
The pillars, both before the holy place and the most holy place, were the central supports for the tabernacle. I think few understand the majesty of the tabernacle. When we realize the magnitude of the structure, then we have a better appreciation of the "pillars". Now, what do they symbolize? Remember I am thinking out loud, not teaching, yet. :)
It seems to me that the pillars of the Hebrew Sanctuary may very well represent the message of the sanctuary, or better put for us today, the sanctuary message. There is a message that was given to us as a people in the very beginning of our history as a church. We began when the first angel of Rev. 14 sounded. Fear God and give glory to Him for the hour of His judgment is come..."
"Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." Daniel 8:14. Is this not the central pillar of our faith? Now, I am not teaching this, yet, but wait for others to confirm or deny this interpretation for the sanctuary pillars. We know that there is a work today to remove the "pillars" of our faith. We have seen this done dramatically and have called for those who teach such error to repent or be removed from their positions in the ministry. I await with my brother for your coments (and his). :)
Post by: Harry Elliott on March 06, 2001, 07:46:00 PM
What I do like to do is study scripture. Our church is far more interested in the yearly than the daily services, since that’s where we teach that we learn about what Christ is doing now. That’s why I think it’s so intriguing that there were so many activities on the Day of Atonement that we seem to have overlooked. For instance, from Lev 16, it appears that the service did NOT close with the scapegoat. The priest still had to make atonements with the two rams that had been selected in the morning.
I agree that what went on during the rest of the year was important, too, and I appreciate your description of a year ago. As you mentioned, the sacrifice of Lev 4 is only for sins of ignorance. I understand that that means violating some precept that individuals did not know about. Since most common people couldn’t read--and didn’t have Bibles to read anyway--that must have happened a lot. Do you know of any provision for sacrifice for doing things they did know were wrong, except on the Day of Atonement?
Post by: Harry Elliott on March 07, 2001, 05:59:00 AM
Thanks for the feedback. It’s interesting that the Day of Atonement could have meant the Day of Covering. :)
Apparently the Day dealt with ALL sins and sinfulness:
“And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in ALL THEIR SINS, and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their UNCLEANNESS. “ Dt 16:16
Does anybody know why our pioneers decided that it was only repented/confessed sins that were atoned/covered?
Harry
Post by: Kevin Hellerud on March 08, 2001, 02:51:00 PM
Post by: Harry Elliott on March 08, 2001, 04:37:00 PM
This passage deals with *all* of the sins of the children of Israel. It says that since the sanctuary was “in their midst of their uncleanness”, every sin anyone committed contaminated it, and that would include deliberate, unconfessed sins.
So what I want to see is whether our pioneers knew of a passage that contradicts this one by saying that only repented sins contaminated the sanctuary , and that only repented sins were removed/atoned/covered.
Does that make sense?
Post by: DavidTBattler on March 08, 2001, 07:44:00 PM
"Our church is far more interested in the yearly than the daily services, since that’s where we teach that we learn about what Christ is doing now."
Hello Brother Elliot
Are you sure that as a church, we are indeed, more interested in the yearly, than in the daily? :)
In light of the following passage from Desire Of Ages; I would question that:
" In every part it was a symbol of Him; and it had been full of vitality and spiritual beauty. “ (pg.29). Ellen White was speaking of the ritual services, and thus implying the earthly sanctuary, in all it’s parts, were in some way, a symbol of Christ. (see also Ps.77:13).
For eg., in one of my recent, above posts, I asked what was important about the pillars of the porch, in the heavenly sanctuary? These pillars are generally discounted as not having much significance...I mean really; how often do we see them mentioned in a study on the sanctuary?
Part of the answer can be found in 1 Kings 7:
“22 And upon the top of the pillars was lily work: so was the work of the pillars
finished.”
What is so important about the pillars of the porch, in the earthly sanctuary?
I will give a little bit of time before completely answering, to see what others may notice about my question. I can say that as a church, we must be equally interested in ALL parts of the sanctuary services. Every part is just as important as the next, and is a unified whole. What do you think?
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"...We believe that through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, we shall be saved..." (Acts 15:11).
Your brother in Christ
David T. Battler
Post by: Harry Elliott on March 10, 2001, 04:37:00 PM
I believe that our church quite properly concentrates on the activities on the Day of Atonement in our response to the many statements like this one:
We can learn much, and should be constantly searching the Scriptures to see if these things are so. God's people are now to have their eyes fixed on the heavenly sanctuary, where the final ministration of our great High Priest in the work of the judgment is going forward,--where He is interceding for His people.-- Review and Herald, Nov. 27, 1883.
Ironically, however, I have concluded that our concentration doesn’t mean we really study what the Bible says about the atonement at all. Where else can we find a detailed scriptural description of Jesus’ interceding outside of Deuteronomy 16 and 23? Our pioneers seem to have arbitrarily selected a minority of the High Priest’s activities on the Day of Atonement and left the rest for to us dig out.
Our claim to the world is that the Day of Atonement proves that Jesus is currently judging the lives of professing Christians. But we can’t convince any scripturally knowlegeable people if we aren’t intimately familiar with what the earthly priest did to typify what Jesus does.
As to the porch pillars, I’ll bite. :) What does the Bible say their significance is?
--Harry
Post by: DavidTBattler on March 11, 2001, 11:26:00 AM
Thankyou for your response & questions above. I'm just letting you know that I have seen your post, and will reply as soon as I have a little time...I won't keep you waiting too long... :)
Part of the answer can be found in 1 Kings 7:
“22 And upon the top of the pillars was lily work: so was the work of the pillars
finished.”
What is so important about the pillars of the porch, in the earthly sanctuary?
------------------
"...We believe that through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, we shall be saved..." (Acts 15:11).
Your brother in Christ
David T. Battler
[This message has been edited by DavidTBattler (edited 03-11-2001).]
Post by: Sherri Hamann on March 15, 2001, 03:33:00 PM
Song of Solomon says (2:1) I AM the rose of Sharon and the lily of the valleys; and Hosea 14:5 says I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon.
My first thoughts reading your posts about the pillars, with the lilys being ON them, was that a lily represents Christ, and the pillars then would be a foundational thing that holds up the teaching and ministry of HIM. Which, then in my thinking, really relates VERY well to the whole sanctuary message, and emphasises how vital and central and foundational it is for our understanding the gospel message.
Okay, please don't laugh at my simple thoughts here, and PLEASE get on with the discussion!! I'm studying and learning and anxious to hear more!!
Sherri
Post by: Liane H on March 15, 2001, 06:31:00 PM
Whatever David gives us, your statement above was just beautiful. What insight and understanding of the word of God.
I have been blessed.
Liane
Post by: Richard Myers on March 15, 2001, 08:38:00 PM
Richard
Post by: WendyForsyth on March 15, 2001, 08:47:00 PM
Don't ever think to be embarassed about your posting. Some of the most beautiful posts, as yours, come from God as He gives us/you insight that those who are more jaded may never have seen without you. I was blessed as well.
WendyF
Post by: DavidTBattler on March 16, 2001, 05:32:00 AM
So, the sanctuary, to me, is all Jesus...In some way; He is in every part of the sanctuary, and it's services. It is totally amazing! But, this Word valley does have some interesting allusions for today's Christian as well, and that is what excites me so much about our church's sanctuary teachings. They have relevance, and meaning for today's Christians, that is very practical.
I am preparing a short piece to put in the testimony thread about this.
------------------
"...We believe that through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, we shall be saved..." (Acts 15:11).
Your brother in Christ
David T. Battler
Post by: Richard Myers on March 16, 2001, 06:34:00 AM
Richard
Post by: Dugald T Lewis MD on March 16, 2001, 04:20:00 PM
I recently heard from one preacher that Psalm 77 was the cry of Jesus on the cross where He made a reference to the Sanctuary and His prior role in heaven.
Anyone cares to read Psalm 77 and comment accordingly?
Sincerely
Dugald
Post by: Richard Myers on March 20, 2001, 06:50:00 AM
In the "daily service" was there a provision for sins that one knew were sins? This is to say; if I get angry with my wife, will Jesus forgive my sin since I know it is a sin? Yes He will. How was this taught in the daily service?
Richard
Post by: DavidTBattler on March 28, 2001, 12:01:00 AM
Sanctification, is in essence, justification, experienced day by day, moment by moment.
According to Ex.30:7-10, an ordinary priest would offer incense here on a DAILY BASIS.
I don’t know about you other gentlemen @ TRO, but my wife and I can’t get along on just the yearly part of the sanctuary service...I yell at her more than once a year! Is there any one of us who only does it once a year? :)
Everything in the daily service, indicated our constant need, and Christ’s 24 hour availability.
“Tamid,” or “daily,” is used in connection with the various aspects of the Tabernacle, and Temple sevices, approximately 50 times...
Some examples:
a) the daily, morning and evening burnt
offering – Ex.29:38, 42
b) the candlestick, or lamp – Ex.27:20
c) the shew bread – Ex.25:30
d) the incense – Ex.30:8
e) the fire upon the altar – Lev.6:13
f) the fire and the cloud that hung over
the sanctuary – Num.9:16
g) the musical service – 1 Chron.16:6, 37
h) etc., etc.
In every instance, “tamid” or “daily” refers to aspects of the Tabernacle or Temple sevice that were used DAILY. That’s why the lamps were never extinguished all at once, the fire on the altar of burnt offerings was never allowed to go out, the bread of the Presence was ALWAYS on the table, a lamp was offered every morning and every evening, and the incense was burned upon the altar of incense simultaneously.
Unwitting Sins:
Leaders – Lev.4:22-26
Common People – Lev.4:27-35
Intentional Sins:
Lev.5:1-5, 6:1-7
The daily service (and the yearly), were/are intended to visibly emphasize the exciting Truth that God is present among His people, in a unique and intimate way; always wanting to be there for us when we go astray, intentionally, or unintentionally.
Remember, there is only ONE unpardonable sin. :)
------------------
"...We believe that through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, we shall be saved..." (Acts 15:11).
Your brother in Christ
David T. Battler
[This message has been edited by DavidTBattler (edited 03-28-2001).]
Post by: Liane H on March 28, 2001, 05:50:00 PM
I had to read this for myself and found it starting in Exodus, Chapter 28, with verse 15. There from that point to verse 29 is a discription of this breastplate.
But what touched me was verse 30. "And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim, and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before the LORD: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the LORD continually."
To think that Jesus at the cross carried our judgment upon his heart. And as our High Priest he carries our judgment upon His heart. I am trying to grab for words, but the feeling is deep. This is personal and upfront. This is as close to the center as one can get.
This judgment of all rest upon the heart of Jesus. We are not talking about 59 billion people that are here today, but far beyond that number since the fall of our first parents. That was all put upon Him, and he carries it upon His heart.
It is so simple to just think of our own little "sins" being the cause of his blood shed at the cross, but when we think of the big picture, it almost becomes overwhelming. It helps me to realize that I should do all that I can to make His joy complete. To do all that I can to carry my own cross that He has given me. For one that has given so much, what little that I can do, let me do it with all that I have. Because he carries my judgment upon His heart.
Liane
Post by: Richard Myers on March 28, 2001, 08:05:00 PM
Then you state that "every sin anyone committed contaminated it [sanctuary], and that would include deliberate, unconfessed sins." While we are happy to have you question what the church teaches, it seems that you are making some statements that are contrary to the teachings of the church and the Bible.
Do you believe that there is a judgment in heaven that will compare the character of all who have professed to love God to the Ten Commandments? It sounds like you may not believe this by some of the statements you have made.
Brother Harry, it appears that you believe something quite different than what Seventh-day Adventists have always taught and believed. Are you saying that when the Saviour leaves the Most Holy Place and the judgement is finished that those who sin can still be saved? Or are you saying that those who have died can have salvation in the judgment even with unconfessed sins on their account? You have me interested in your line of questioning.
Post by: Harry Elliott on April 01, 2001, 10:00:00 AM
Thank you for considering my question so carefully. Ellen White said something to the effect that we should let the pioneers teach us how they came to the conclusions that they did. I haven’t had the opportunity to gather all the records possible recounting their discussions and reasoning. We are told that her visions did not run ahead of their Bible study, so all this indicates to me that there must be some detailed original studies in existance somewhere. I’m looking for someone who has gone farther down the path she indicated than I have.
The pioneers decided that the wilderness sanctuary service teaches us the details of Christ’s priestly ministry on our behalf. If the sanctuary service can teach us these details, they can teach non-Adventists who do not accept the authority of Ellen White, as well. My experience has been that we have not been particulary persuasive in this regard--convincing Bible-believing Christians of our sanctuary concepts from the Bible alone.
The way to solve this problem should be to look at the questions through their eyes . Make sense?
I’m not looking for DEFENSES of our positions so much as the original basis for their their having been adopted in the first place.
So, working forward from the Bible, I start with relevant passages such as,
“And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him ALL the iniquities of the children of Israel, and ALL of their transgressions in ALL their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness.”
Lev 16:21 (My capitals)
Please bear with me here. Do you believe that this passage says that only PART of their sins and iniquities are atoned for here? What am I missing?
I’m not saying that God treats our unrepented sins the same as our repented sins. What I’m saying is that apparently we can’t use the Day of Atonement ritual to show it. So I wonder how--or if--our pioneers concluded that we can. Are these unreasonable questions, in your opinion?
--Harry
Post by: Wendy on April 01, 2001, 12:20:00 PM
The word atonement is not in that text. It says Aaron was CONFESSING ALL their sins. The text supports the doctrine that only confessed sins are transfered to the sanctuary(or in this case to the scape goat).
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WendyL ~ Maranatha!:)
Post by: Liane H on April 01, 2001, 03:15:00 PM
Jesus blood covers every sin, repented of or not, the High Priest confessed all the sins and placed them on the scapegoat. The High Priest has no way of knowing which had been repented of, all he could do was place ALL the sins on the scapegoat. It is only if that person lived to the next atonement is it know if his sins had been repented of. As it will be on the day of judgment, we will not know who is saved or who is lost. Only the Father knows.
Liane
Post by: Richard Myers on April 01, 2001, 09:07:00 PM
Well, I would first ask you why you believe that the transfer of the sins of Israel to Satan is an atonement? My understanding and that of the church has always been that none can atone for our sins except Jesus Christ. When He suffered and died He payed the price for our sins and when we confess our sins and accept Jesus as our Saviour, the blood of Christ covers our sins. The atonement takes place when we accept what Jesus has done for us. The sanctuary being defiled by our sins will be cleansed and the record will be brought up to date. The wages of sin is death and each will receive according to the works done in the flesh. By this, I understand that God is perfectly just and Satan will suffer in exact proportion for the sins he has committed. Having tempted men to sin, their sins will be placed upon him and he shall suffer the additional amount. Thus the sins from the sanctuary will be placed upon Satan as you have read.
Do you believe that the character of all who have confessed Christ will be compared to the Ten Commandments in the judgment?
Post by: Harry Elliott on April 01, 2001, 11:00:00 PM
My point was that in Lev 16: 21 the word “all” is repeated three times. All their iniquities. All their transgressions. All their sins. How can all of them leave out any of them?
The next verse says it again. “And the goat shall bear upon him ALL the iniquities of the children of Israel...” This is consistent with verse16 which says Aaron shall make an atonement for the tabernacle because of “their transgressions in ALL their sins”.
If we can find four statements that SOME of their sins were NOT placed on the scapegoat, it would be a wash. But we haven’t found even one, have we?
Wendy, you make a good point that these sins were indeed confessed--by the High Priest. But as you pointed out, it says he confessed ALL of them. I probably should have said simply “repented” instead of “confessed/repented”.
Liane, that’s an interesting suggestion of a possible reason that the High Priest was instructed to confess all of the sins. I’m wondering, do you know of any text that says that anyone who was unrepentant would die? The capital punishment mentioned was for failing to fast (“afflict your souls”) or keep the ceremonial sabbath. But that dealt with obvious outward actions, because as you pointed out, the enforcers had no way to know what was in the people’s hearts.
Richard, you ask why I believe that the transfer of the sins of Israel to Satan is an atonement. I think you may have overlooked verse 10 because it’s separated from the rest of the instruction regarding the scapegoat:
“But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an ATONEMENT with him...” Lev 16:10
I think this chapter is worth the extra effort required for precision. I avoided saying “Satan” because I don’t find that name in the chapter.
And in response to your last question, I don’t find any mention in the chapter of the ten commandments or character judgment. I try to be certain of no more that the scripture actually says. :)
--Harry
Post by: Richard Myers on April 02, 2001, 07:37:00 AM
Post by: Liane H on April 02, 2001, 06:17:00 PM
I have studied Leviticus 16 many times and it is at a time such as this, that I am given the opportunity to see it with new eyes.
Throughout Leviticus 16, the use of atonement or expediation is used in the first half of Leviticus from verse 6 through verse 11.
Then from verse 16 through 18, the word atonement changes to mean purge. In connection blood is the form of this atonement.
When the word atonement (expediation) is used in verse 10, there is no blood attached to the process. The key words "with it" or "with him." The application of this word atonement as I understand it in this verse, the use of the word atonement, means to cover the scapegoat with the sins of the people.
The two ways the word atonement is used in this chapter is first: Expediation means to amend or to cover. In the use of purge, the meaning is to cleanse.
In verse 1 through verse 10, is what you would call a pre-summary of what is going to happen, an explanation. From verse 11 through verse 20, is the actual performance of the atonement, the blood is applied, this is when the word atonement changes from expediation to purge. Then from verse 21 is the process of the scapegoat.
My understanding of the scapegoat as Satan comes from my relationship with my mother who was Jewish. The other name of scapegoat is Azazel, goat removal has always been associated with Satan from ancient times in Jewish tradition and teachings. I will have to study this further from the prospective of the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy.
Again I have to say my understanding comes from what I learned from Judaism. In Levitcus 23, verse 29: "For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people." The word cut meaning in Hebrew to be destroyed or perish when used here. This has been understood that the judgment of every man for the year to come is finally decided.
Liane
Post by: Harry Elliott on April 02, 2001, 08:59:00 PM
Now that you mention it, I do recall a tradition that one’s fortunes during the following year depends on the degree of repentance during the period betwee their secular new year’s day and the Day of Atonement. Or something like that. That may have influenced our own tradition of seeing judgment on this day. A Jewish friend of mine told me how as a kid, he would listen to his stomach growl as the sun slowly inched its way toward sundown on the Day of Atonement.
Hmmm. Atonement meaning to cover WITH sins is a new slant. But then, Jesus covered Himself with our sins. And Lev 16:5 says that both goats are for a sin offering. So the bodies of the two dead sin offerings and the live sin offering were all taken outside the encampment. “Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.” (Heb 13:13) I have difficulty concluding that in the face of all these parallels, that two of them represent Jesus and the other represents Satan. But since the Bible doesn’t quite say so explicitly, I’ll try to stay open on the question.
I have to admit that I’m uncomfortable with changing the meaning of a word in mid-chapter, but your application makes sense. The last act of atonement on the Day of Atonement is the burning of the bullock and the ram selected in the first act of the day . Would you see these final sacrifices as expediation or as purging?
Richard--
I do my studying alone. It’s less fun, but more productive. Here are a couple of my favorite EGW statements on the subject.
“There is no excuse for ayone in taking the position that all our expositions of Scripture are withour an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can affortd to be fair. No doctrine will lose anything by close investigation.” R&H December 20, 1892
Unfortunately, it’s not easy to find a group interested in doing “close investigation”. :)
And:
“How shall we search the Scriptures? Shall we drive our stakes of doctrine one after another, and then try to make all Scripture meet our established opinions? Or shall we take our ideas and views to the Scripturess, and measure our theories on every side by the Scriptures of truth? ...We have many lessons to learn, and MANY, MANY to unlearn.” (Counsels to Writers and Editors, p38. Emphasis mine.)
--Harry
Post by: Liane H on April 03, 2001, 05:56:00 PM
I am dismayed by the fact that I am going away for a few days for a wedding. My favorite study has always been Leviticus 16.
Neither. There is no atonement from verse 25 to 28, which the final act of taking out the fat, the sin offerings that had been used as an atonement in the holy place, shall be carried without the camp and burned as well. The person who took the scapegoat and the person who burned the fat and remaining flesh used as the atonement had to wash their clothes. This is the final act of purification of the camp.
From verse 29 to the end of this chapter is a summation and extra detail information of what the day of atonement was about.
I found it interesting that you made this statement: "Jesus covered Himself with our sins." I have understood that He covered our sins with the shedding of his blood for our sins, that He coveres our sins with His righteousness, and that he took upon himself our sins and was a sin bearer, but never "covered Himself with our sins." Could you explain a little more what you mean and where that comes from? Your probably saying the same thing, it just sounds strange to me.
I am also interested in your Jewish friend. What was the growling of his stomach about?. I know that the adults were to fast for the Day of Atonement, but not the children.
As I said, I am sorry that I will not be able to respond or partake of this for a few days. But it will be the first place I will come to when I get back. I will try to get on before I leave in the morning to see if you have written, but if not, then I will when I get back.
Liane
Post by: Wendy on April 03, 2001, 06:09:00 PM
I'm a little confused. You believe that Satan will burn for the sins of everyone even those who have not confessed?
It's my understanding that causing someone else to sin is a sin in it's own right and you will have that in your record. But what will happen to Satan goes even further. If Satan tempts me and I sin but then confess that sin and am forgiven and saved, that sin will be placed on Satan's record (like the scapegoat) as if he had committed that sin himself. That's part of the reason why Satan burns the longest and is the last to perish, he not only has 6000+ years of sins on his record but he spends time burning for the forgiven sins of everyone who is saved.
quote
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"The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has decieved. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches." The Great Controversy pg 673
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The wicked die for their own sins, they are not transferred to Satan or Christ. That was what the Sanctuary service illustrated. The High Priest had to confess ALL the sins of Israel (and himself) on the lamb and on the scapegoat. He then wore a rope around his ankle because if he entered the most Holy Place with unconfessed sin, he would be struck dead and they could then use the rope to pull him out. Also when the priest confessed the sins of Israel, he did not confess the sins of say, the Ammonites or the Hittites and so those people's sins where not transfered symbolically to the scapegoat or the lamb.
I feel like I need to explain how I see what happened with Christ too in order to avoid anyone misunderstanding me. When Christ died he felt and died for every sin that had been committed and every sin that was yet to be committed. He had to or His sacrifice wouldn't have been complete. If you commit a sin, though, it is not automatically charged to His account. If it were everyone would be saved because they would have no sins on their account. If you confess and repent a sin, it is then charged to Christ (as the lamb) and Satan (as the scapegoat). If you are lost then that sin is charged to your account and you will pay for it.
I know that freaks out a lot of people because many start to worry that they might forget a sin and therefore be lost but I would say to anyone who feels that way, "just trust God". If I do something that I feel is a sin I usually feel sorry immediately and say so to God. At any time you can ask God to help you remember a sin you might need to repent of and then have faith that He will help you to do so. You can also, like David ask for forgiveness for sins that you don't even know are sins ("Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults." Psalms 19:12).
Anyway, I think I kind of got carried away. I just meant to explain what I understood about the transfer of sins and Satan and look where I ended up.
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WendyL ~ Maranatha! :)
[This message has been edited by Wendy (edited 04-03-2001).]
Post by: Wendy on April 03, 2001, 06:16:00 PM
You must be on at the same time as I am, I just noticed your last post after I posted. You're lucky, I wish I got to go to weddings, I'm always the one who has to go to funerals. My sister gets all the weddings. :)
Post by: Liane H on April 03, 2001, 11:50:00 PM
Still up before my trip. Wanted to post this before I left. Early Writings, page 295:
"Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; AND HE ALSO MUST SUFFER FOR THE RUIN OF SOULS WHICH HE HAD CAUSED."
Liane
Post by: Richard Myers on April 04, 2001, 08:35:00 AM
It seems we have gotten the horse ahead of the carriage, for there are many that are still in need of a clear picture of the simple gospel as revealed in the daily service. It may be that we will need to open a forum for this important and all encompassing subject so that we can have discussion and study on many areas at the same time.
Let us continue on this subect here and let me know what you all think of a forum for the sanctuary.
Brother Harry, I agree with what you have quoted and we do not want to discourage study of the Bible and these important subjects. My only concern is that we keep within the framework that we know is truth as we "teach". All may question what we believe, but we need to take great care in not teaching that which is contrary to what we have accepted as truth as a people.
My great concern revolves around the foundation of our faith and it was to this that I was inquiring. If you take exception with the foundation principles that are taught throughout the Bible in regards to the need of an abiding Saviour that we might overcome sin, then it would be much easier to discuss the situation in simple terms.
Do you believe that when Jesus walks out of the Most Holy Place in heaven and probation closes that none of the saved will sin? And, again, do you believe that when each name comes up in the judgment that the issue will be the character of the person as compared to the Ten Commandments? Or, do you believe that Jesus will give us our perfect character when He comes?
Post by: Wendy on April 04, 2001, 12:17:00 PM
quote
---------------------------------
"Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; AND HE ALSO MUST SUFFER FOR THE RUIN OF SOULS WHICH HE HAD CAUSED."
-----------------------------------
I totally agree. My understanding is that anytime we do something that leads another person into sin that is in itself a sin and unless we repent of that sin it will remain on our record and if we are lost we will pay for that sin. Satan is ultimately responsible for leading everyone into sin so he will suffer for those sins.
There is something more going on in the Sanctuary service when the priest confessed the sins of Israel on the head of the scapegoat (which represents satan) then what I just talked about. In the service all the confessed and forgiven sins of those who are saved (read Israel) are transferred to the scapegoat(satan). I'm having trouble trying to explain this clearly so I'll use an imaginary example. I'll make up some guy and call him John. Let's say Satan temps John to steal a car and John does it, at this point Satan has a sin on his record of tempting John to steal the car and John has the sin of stealing the car on his record. If John's probation were to close at this time Satan would pay for having tempted John to steal the car and John would pay for stealing the car. That's how Satan "MUST SUFFER FOR THE RUIN OF SOULS WHICH HE HAD CAUSED".
What's going on in the Sanctuary service is something different. Let's now say that John is converted and repents for stealing the car and that sin is forgiven him and John is in a saved condition when his probation closes. Now John goes to heaven, Satan still burns for having tempted John to steal the car and now Satan also burns for John's sin of stealing the car as if he were the one who stole the car.
That is what I learn from the Sanctuary service. When the sinner confessed his sin on the head of the lamb (representing Jesus) his sin was transferred (symbolically) to the lamb. Jesus suffered and died for each of our sins, however if we refuse to accept Him and His sacrifice for us we must pay for our own sins. If we are saved, then our sins are laid on Christ's record (for which He has already paid the price) and they are laid on Satan (who has yet to pay the price). This was symbolized in the Santuary- Day of Atonement service by the priest confessing all the sins of Israel (which represent the saved) on the animal that represented Christ and the animal that represented Satan (the scapegoat) thus transferring those sins symbolically to those animals. Christ suffered for everyone's sin and Satan will suffer for the confessed and forgiven sins of the saved. At the same time Satan will also suffer for the sin of tempting others to sin. That's what I've learned in my studies anyway.
I know you won't be around for a couple of days so I'll look foreward to your reply later. :)
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WendyL ~ Maranatha! :)
[This message has been edited by Wendy (edited 04-04-2001).]
Post by: Harry Elliott on April 05, 2001, 10:39:00 AM
I enthusiastically endorse your concern for getting the horse and cart right-way-round. :)
For me, that means always starting with scripture and only being certain of those things the passage conclusively establishes. In that spirit, I have attempted to extract from Leviticus 16 a comprehensive list of the actions taken by the High Priest on the Day of Atonement. I hate being wordy, but Aaron was a busy guy that day!
1) He brings a bullock for a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering to the sanctuary.
2) He bathes in water.
3) He dons special linen vestments worn only on that day.
4) He takes from the congregation two young goats for a sin offering and one ram for a burnt offering.
5) He presents the goats befort the Lord and casts lots to choose one for the Lord and one for Azazel.
6) He kills the bullock.
7) He takes the smoking censer into the Most Holy Place and returns to the courtyard.
8) He takes some bullock blood into the Most Holy Place, sprinkles it 7 times before the mercy seat and retuns to the courtyard.
9) He kills the Lord’s goat.
10) He takes some goat blood into the Most Holy Place, sprinkles it 7 times before the mercy seat and retuns to the courtyard.
11) He takes some bullock blood into the Holy Place, sprinkles it 7 times and retuns to the courtyard.
12) He takes some goat blood into the Holy Place, sprinkles it 7 times and retuns to the courtyard.
13) He puts bullock blood and goats blood on the horns of the altar in the courtyard.
14) He sprinkles bullock blood 7 times on the altar.
15) He sprinkles goat blood 7 times on the altar.
16) He confesses all the sins and uncleanness of the congregation upon the head of the scapegoat and sends it into the wilderness, evidtntly to succomb to starvation or predators.
17) He returns to the Holy Place to remove his special vestments, bathe and put on his everyday High Priestly outfit.
18) He slaughters the 2 rams for burnt offerings.
19) He burns the fat of the sin offering upon the altar.
Phew! At last to your question about what happens when Jesus comes out of the heavenly Most Holy Place.
After the typical High Priest came out of the Most Holy Place for the third and last time, he still had three animals still living and actions 11-19 to perform, so it’s not obvious to me that an end to sinning is depicted at this juncture. What do you think?
--Harry
Post by: Harry Elliott on April 05, 2001, 10:50:00 AM
Hi Liane--
I’m disappointed too, but then what’s a few days? I agree that there is no mentione of atonement in verses 25-28. I guess I should have been a little more explicit in my question about the final atonement for the day. I meant verse 24, (action 18 in the list I prepared above).
“And he shall...offer his burnt offering, and the burnt offering of the people, and *make an atonement* for himself, and for the people.”
So AFTER the sanctuary is cleansed, and AFTER the scapegoat is released, the High Priest made yet another atonement for himself and for the people. And this involved killing two more animals!
You are correct, of course, in pointing out that the Bible never uses the word “cover” in describing Jesus and our sins. At least, that I know of. I was simply noticing that the scapegoat being “covered” by sins that weren’t its own seems analogous to Jesus taking upon Himself sins that weren’t His own. I was just thinking out loud. That always gets me into trouble. :)
--Harry
Post by: Liane H on April 05, 2001, 12:45:00 PM
Surprise, guess what, I am on. We had a lot of problems getting onto this computer I am using, long story, but I am on for today only.
There were only three animals killed for the offerings that day. One bullock, one ram and one goat. The other goat kept alive and sent off to die.
At the end after the High Priest washed himself, he did the burnt offering, this was one of the animal listed above, which is verse 24. There had not been any burnt offering up to this point. The ram was only for the burnt offering. There is no indication that any more animals were killed. Then the fat was burned at the alter.
Whatever remains were left of these two animals, the bullock and the goat were sent out of the camp and burned completely.
Hope this helps. I will try to get back on later today, but have to get off to help them get there computer back to where it was before.
Liane
Post by: Harry Elliott on April 05, 2001, 08:29:00 PM
Thanks for the feedback. If I got it right the first time, I’d be shocked. :)
Hmmm, are you saying that the rams were not a part of the Day of Atonement service? Their presentation at the Sanctuary is certainly integrated into the day’s rituals (acts 1 and 4 in my list). And their sacrifice was expressly to “make an atonement for himself, and for the people”. This is an echo of statements throughout the day’s instructions.
As I recall, the continual/daily/tamid/evening-and morning burnt offerings were lambs, and the instruction was that they were to be offered every day, in addition to whatever else was happening. So the rams would not be for that offering. Right?
And help me out with only one ram sacrificed. Verse 3 says Aaron brings a ram for a burnt offering, and verse 5 say he takes another ram for a burnt offering from the congregation. Then verse 24 says “offer his burnt offering, and the burnt offering of the people” to make atonement for the two parties. That makes four slaughtered animals, doesn’t it? Are you basing your observations on later Judaic tradition?
--Harry
Post by: Richard Myers on April 05, 2001, 08:51:00 PM
Richard
Post by: Liane H on April 06, 2001, 08:03:00 AM
Still here. We are leaving later than we had planned on, so I got a chance.
My understanding, but I will most certainly study it again when I get back. Verse 1 thru 10 is an outline of what is going to happen from 11 and on. They are still speaking about the one ram. It is still the ram that was used as verse 24 for the burnt offering. But I will check further.
You did a great outline and when I get back I am going to print this for further study. Perhaps if you are inclined you might want to put the verse number next to each statement and that would give all of us a sense of the chapter.
Today will be very busy and I may not get back on. But thank you for working with me on this as Lev 16 has been my favorite study and I am learning as well.
Also in closing, the rams are used in the daily which also represent Christ as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. There is no daily done on the day of atonement.
Must close now as we are going to town to get more things before we leave. Take care and talk later.
Liane
Post by: Harry Elliott on April 06, 2001, 05:55:00 PM
I think the way to go is to start with the bedrock of the Bible description of the High Priest’s tasks on the Day of Atonement, and work up from there. If judgment and the ten commandments are plainly there, it will be worth our patience. Do you see any errors in my list of these tasks?
I could have missed some of the actions he performed, or gotten them out of order. I had to make my own list because I have never found a complete list in any source. I consider omissions to be a form of error.
If there are any lurkers out there, please lend a hand. :)
--Harry
Post by: Richard Myers on April 06, 2001, 09:38:00 PM
Brother Harry, I think the place to begin is with the daily, but because Sister Liane and others are interested in continuing with the day of atonement, let us continue. It is easy to build upon a false foundation and if we have not agreed upon the duties up to the day of atonement, it will be easy to misunderstand the acts performed on the day of atonement.
The beautiful fact about the message we have been given as a people is that it is taught from Genesis to Revelation. There have been many who have attempted to remove the pins from the platform of our faith, but this will not be done. While we may examine our beliefs, we know that what we are teaching is truth and are comforted when we read of what others believed. It is also comforting to know that what we see happening today has been prophesied.
There is a caution as we move forward. "The time has come when we must firmly refuse to be drawn away from the platform of eternal truth, which since 1844 has stood the test." Letter 277, 1904. "The Word of the Lord has guided our steps since the passing of the time in 1844. We have searched the Scriptures; we have built solidly; and we have not had to tear up our foundations and put in new timbers." Letter 24, 1907. "The great waymarks of truth, showing us our bearing in prophetic history, are to be carefully guarded, lest they be torn down and replaced with theories that would bring confusion rather than genuine light." Ms 31, 1896. "Listen not a moment to the interpretations that would loosen one pin, remove one pillar, from the platform of truth. Human interpretations, the reception of fables, will spoil your faith, confuse your understanding, and make of none effect your faith in Jesus Christ. Study diligently the third chapter of Revelation. In it is pointed out the danger of losing your hold upon the things that you have heard and learned from the Source of all light." Letter 230, 1906.
Finally, "When men come in who would move one pin or pillar from the foundation which God has established by His Holy Spirit, let the aged men who were pioneers in our work speak plainly, and let those who are dead speak also, by the reprinting of their articles in our periodicals. Gather up the rays of divine light that God has given as He has led His people on step by step in the way of truth. This truth will stand the test of time and trial." Ms 62, 1905. "The truths given us after the passing of the time in 1844 are just as certain and unchangeable as when the Lord gave them to us in answer to our urgent prayers. The visions that the Lord has given me are so remarkable that we know that what we have accepted is the truth. This was demonstrated by the Holy Spirit. Light, precious light from God, established the main points of our faith as we hold them today. Letter 50, 1906.
While God is happy to give new light, we can sense a real danger when any come attempting to contradict what we have taught as a people regarding the foundation of our faith. This is why I ask the questions of Brother Harry. We are not talking incidentals, we are at the very foundation of our faith. The questions I have asked Brother Harry, and their answers regarding what we believe as a people, are supported by the Bible from the beginning to the end.
Like the seventh-day Sabbath, and the pre-existance of Jesus, we know them to be truth. We are not fearful to give an answer for our faith, but we are not ready to allow for the teaching of contrary doctrine. So, while we continue our study, we do so with no intent to prove what we believe is wrong.
We do not believe what we believe because someone else believes it, but because we have tasted and we can confirm from the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy that it is so. Let us prayerfully continue that the light might shine more brightly.
Post by: Harry Elliott on April 07, 2001, 02:18:00 PM
I have been meaning for some time to collect all of EGW’s statements on the sanctuary and arrange them by subcategory . I only recently bought the CD for that purpose. You have given me a headstart.
One line that particularly appeals to me is, “We have searched the Scriptures; we have built solidly...”
I would like to emulate thier effort. I can either do what they did and see what the scripture says precisely, or do what they refused to do and merely assent to the conclusions of others. There is no risk in the former, only the reward of the Bereans.
If the Day of Atonement teaches us what Jesus will do on the antitypical Day of Atonement, then I want to know precisely what it says. Without speculation. (Speculation’s okay, but I like to recognize it as a separate category from the specific “thus sayeth the Lord”).
That’s why I painstakenly extracted the outline of what the earthly High Priest did on the Day of Atonement. To summarize even further:
A) He went twice into the Most Holy Place to sprinkle the blood of two sin offerings. Lev16:14,15
B) He went twice into the Holy Place to sprinkle the blood of the same two sin offerings. vs 16b
C) He went twice to the altar in the courtyard to sprinkle the blood of the same two sin offerings.vss 18,19
D) He confessed all the sins of the people on the head of another sin offering and sent it without the camp to perish.vss 21,22
E) He sacrificed two more animals as additional atonements and burned their carcases in the courtyard . vs 24
All of these actions are called making atonement.
Regardless of what we believe about Jesus’ present ministry from OTHER scriptures, the description of the Day of Atonement does not seem to describe anything being done in the Most Holy Place that is substantially different from his continuing duties on that day.
Perhaps I’m missing something. Do you see any statement in THIS description of the Day of Atonement that clearly ESTABLISHES that the High Priest was performing a judgment in the Most Holy Place, or that his ministry in the other two parts of the sanctuary was less important? Or do we look elsewhere? (Nothing wrong with that. The Bible is a big book.)
--Harry
Post by: Harry Elliott on April 07, 2001, 02:23:00 PM
I got my information from Numbers 28.
“This is the offering made by fire which ye shall offer unto the Lord; two lambs of the first year without spot day by day, for a coninual burnt offering.” Vs 3
Verses 10, 15, and 24 indicate that other offerings--even burnt offerings--are to be “beside the continual burnt offering”.
--Harry
Post by: Richard Myers on April 07, 2001, 08:54:00 PM
When a sinner brought his lamb into the courtyard and killed it, what happened to the sins that were confessed upon the head of the lamb?
Richard
Post by: Harry Elliott on April 08, 2001, 12:02:00 AM
I guess we agree that taken in isolation, the Day of Atonement establishes nothing about Jesus’ ministry. Although I suspect you wouldn’t put it quite that way. :)
As I’ve said before, I like to start any question about the Bible with the pertinent passage.
Since you have mentioned Leviticus 4 before, I presume you mean the sacrifice of the lambs and goats for sins of ignorance described in verses 27-35?
I don’t see that it says that anything happens to the sins, per se. However, it does say that the blood of the sacrificed animals was applied to the altar in the courtyard. Is this what you mean?
--Harry
Post by: Richard Myers on April 08, 2001, 07:27:00 AM
Post by: Harry Elliott on April 08, 2001, 01:15:00 PM
I appreciate your persistence re the daily. I am studying the rest of Levitcus at last! :)
I’ve completed the first 5 chapters so far. Of course, I have read it before, but never REALLY studied it. My method is to underline (in one of my KJVs) every type of sacrifice, the reason, where the blood and body parts are disposed of, and whether it’s a sin offering or burnt offering, etc. Oh yes, and whether it’s called an atonement. It’s hard work, but it’s fun.
I highly recommend this method to everyone who is serious about the Hebrew sanctuary. The underlined portions of my Bible jump right out at me. In the future, when my 68 year old grey matter forgets, I’ll be able to refresh it easily.
I’m not sure why you keep asking me what I believe. I’m determined to believe whatever the
Bible clearly says, just like you. That’s why I keep rephrasing your questions about what I believe into questions about what I have found the Bible to say.
You quoted Lev 4:7 and asked why this was necessary. With the help of my new underlines, I’m able to let scripture explain this scripture. A few verses before, it explains:
“If the priest that is anointed so SIN according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his SIN, whch he hath SINNED, ...a SIN offering.” (Lev 4:3)
And you asked why was it necessary to make an atonement for the sanctuary?
“And he shall make an atonement for the holy place because of the UNCLEANNESS of the children of Israel, and because of their TRANSGRESSIONS in ALL THEIR SINS: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that REMAINETH AMONG THEM in the MIDST OF THEIR UNCLEANNESS.” (Lev 16:16)
“And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him ALL THE INIQUITIES of the children of Israel, and ALL THEIR TRANSGRESSION in ALL THEIR SINS..” (Lev 16:21a)
I get the feeling that you have some other texts in mind, perhaps in the chapters I haven’t studied yet. Just point the way.
--Harry
Post by: Liane H on April 08, 2001, 04:44:00 PM
We just got back from Virginia City and I will be home tomorrow morning and I will be able to write more.
There is only two places where the Day of Atonement is mentioned in the whole Bible for literal Israel and they both are in Leviticus, Chapters 16 and 23.
Numbers 28 is regarding three yearly events which apply to the daily; the sabbath and monthly offerings; as well as the offerings of the appointed feasts. This chapter does not apply to the Day of atonement.
As much as I love discussing the Day of Atonement, perhaps Richard is correct, we need to start with the daily and then go onto the day of atonement. I guess I had assumed you had a foundation regarding the the daily already in your experience. Or you do, but need to know more. The daily has much to teach about the application of the blood as pertain to justification and the complete understanding of Christ work in both places.
The old testament gives us the foundation of this work that Christ now does for us today in the Most Holy place.
Could you give me a discription of the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place and what is in each room and what is in the courtyard as well. I would like to know what your understanding is of the temple.
I will be back tomorrow and write more.
Liane
Post by: Richard Myers on April 08, 2001, 06:12:00 PM
We don't ask anyone to blindly accept what the church believes, but I do think the baptismal vows acknowlege an acceptance of our doctrines which would include the investigative judgment. It seems that prior to baptism the subject should be thoroughly understood since it lies at the foundation of our faith. How could one call himself a Seventh-day Adventist Christian and not believe in the investigative judgment which began in 1844? If we were to ignore the doctrine, then how could we, as a people, be about the business of perfecting Christian characters before Christ ceases His intercession? We could not and therefore we would continue to delay the coming of Jesus as we have done for the last 160 years. We are living in the anti-typical Day of Atonement and we are to be searching our hearts for sins that have not been overcome. Soon Jesus will cease to forgive sins and then probation will have closed for all. Any who sin after this time will not be given another chance, for their characters will be fixed. After the sanctuary is cleansed, no sins will defile it ever again. The books in heaven will be closed. Let us look to Jesus for grace to overcome now while probation remains open.
Post by: Harry Elliott on April 08, 2001, 09:45:00 PM
Welcome back--again.
I have cheerfully conceded on the point of studying the daily first. To me the ministry of the sanctuary is more interesting than the furniture, however if you have a particular passage regarding the furnishings that you would like to discuss, I'd enjoy that too.
--Harry
Post by: Harry Elliott on April 08, 2001, 10:28:00 PM
My outline of Leviticus 16 was not intended as an interpretation, but an attempt to get into the chapter. I was hoping for an in-depth study of the scripture with corrections to any misreading I disclosed. I appreciate Liane’s efforts to do so.
You’ve asked me a number of questions and I have endeavored to find the Bible’s answers. If you think I identified the wrong texts, I would be grateful to hear your reasons.
But of course you don’t have to. This is your forum and your thread. You’re the boss. I’m just an over-enthusiastic guest. :)
You have mentioned how important it is to study the daily before the annual. Is there any particular passage of scripture that describes the daily that you are interested in studying together?
--Harry
Post by: Liane H on April 09, 2001, 08:58:00 AM
I am home. It was quite an experience to say the least. One thing I am grateful for in California is that anyplace you eat, there is no smoking.
I almost died in Nevada. Earthquake and all I was glad to be back on California soil. We got snow the whole time we were in Nevada and I did like that. I can get to snow from where I live, it is about half hour drive. I have gotten spoiled in Southern California.
As for your enthusiasm, don't every let go of it. These are exciting things to learn.
The one idea that I would like you to do, if you wish, is to look at each peace of furniture and see how it is applied to Jesus. Example is the showbread. Jesus calls himself the bread of life.
Knowing the furnishings of the sanctuary gives you a much better understanding of the daily and the day of atonement. Unless Richard wishes to start someplace else, I think it is a good place to start.
I have not eaten, so I am going to get off and come back later. I may get on before you do, but I am delighted at your desire to learn and have communication on this subject, as the whole sanctuary understanding is one that I enjoy a great deal.
Liane
Post by: Harry Elliott on April 09, 2001, 03:21:00 PM
It's amazing how great minds......
Just about an hour ago my wife and I were eating in a salad bar restaurant with about a hundred other Silicon Valley denizens, and I remarked about how miraculous it was to be among all those people without being exposed to a single cigarette.
I like to really get into scriptural passages on an objective basis. The analogy you mention is a good one, but I like to ask questions like was it is the one Jesus had in mind. That is, was He plainly speaking in terms of sanctuary imagery when He said that.? Please remind me of the specific text.
--Harry
--Harry
Post by: Richard Myers on April 09, 2001, 09:52:00 PM
Brother Harry, I think Sister Liane has a good suggestion. We have already given a simple overview of the sanctuary services and it would be good to look at the articles of furniture that the tabernacle and the courtyard contained. I appreciate the lessons, for they are rather easy to understand when one loves Jesus. The Holy Spirit will bless our study together.
I would like to begin in the courtyard if we can, then move into the Holy Place. The courtyard had two main objects, the brazen altar and the laver. What can we say about these two objects?
Richard
Post by: Harry Elliott on April 09, 2001, 10:11:00 PM
Which descripion of the courtyard do you want to begin with?
--Harry
Post by: Gary K on April 09, 2001, 11:34:00 PM
I just surfed by tonight. I hadn't seen this thread before and have a small sidelight that might prove interesting about the altar in the courtyard.
Leviticus 1:13 But he shall wash the inwards and the legs with water: and the priest shall bring it all, and burn it upon the altar: it is a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.
When I read this I began to wonder about why God said put the inwards and the legs on the altar. Here is what I found. It was new to me, hope it isn't old hat to you. I found this to be very revealing about the sanctuary service and how the Israelites must have envisioned this sacrificial system.
Inwards from the Hebrew: Copied from "The Blue Letter Bible."
07130 qereb {keh'-reb}
from 07126; TWOT - 2066a; n m
AV - among 76, midst 73, within 24, inwards 22, in 6, misc 26; 227
1) midst, among, inner part, middle
1a) inward part
1a1) physical sense
1a2) as seat of thought and emotion
1a3) as faculty of thought and emotion
1b) in the midst, among, from among (of a number of persons)
1c) entrails (of sacrificial animals)
Notice that the inward part was both a physical sense and symbolic of the seat of the thoughts and emotions. Symbolically the sacrifice was a way of saying that they laid their very being on the altar. They were offering their very thoughts and emotions to God upon the altar.
Legs:
03767 kara` {kaw-raw'}
from 03766; TWOT - 1044a; n f
AV - leg 9; 9
1) leg
The Hebrew word was actually leg, but it has its roots in another word that also has very interesting symbolism attached to it.
03766 kara` {kaw-rah'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 1044; v
AV - bow 14, ...down 12, fell 2, subdued 2, brought low 1, couched 1,
feeble 1, kneeling 1, very 1; 36
1) to bend, kneel, bow, bow down, sink down to one's knees, kneel
down to rest (of animals), kneel in reverence
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to bow
1a2) to bow down, crouch
1a3) to bow down over
1a4) to tilt, lean
1b) (Hiphil) to cause to bow
The legs were symbolic of kneeling in reverence. So the Isrealites were in symbolism kneeling reverently before God while offering Him their very innermost parts, the seat of the thoughts and emotions. This symbolism was most likely very clear to them. These thoughts were tied directly to the words and substances used in the sacrificial system in their everyday language.
Now, the word translated as burnt offering also has an interesting second interpretation:
05930 `olah {o-law'} or `owlah {o-law'}
f act part of 05927; TWOT - 1624c,1624d; n f
AV - burnt offering 264, burnt sacrifice 21, ascent 1, go up 1; 289
1) whole burnt offering
2) ascent, stairway, steps
It was an ascent, a stairwat, steps. To where? To God. This had to create a very vivid picture in the hearts and minds of all who brought a sacrifice for sin.
I hope you found a blessing in this. I sure did.
Gary
Post by: Harry Elliott on April 10, 2001, 07:45:00 AM
Nice piece of work. I think everything you said is valid. It tells us a lot about you, and it’s all good!
I have to point out an irony I noticed a couple of days ago, while doing a study instigated by Richard. Sometimes the legs and innards are categorized with the animals dung. Ugh! (Lev 4:11) But then, so was it’s head.
If you see any ironies in my observations on the various services (above), please return the favor. :)
--Harry
Post by: Liane H on April 10, 2001, 09:42:00 AM
If I understand what you are asking, I would like to start there from a quote above that you made and make it a starting point for myself. What has begun is very good, but I want to go back one step further before we get into the sanctuary discription itself.
You said: "He (Jesus) plainly speaking in terms of sanctuary imagery when He said that."
We must begin with Exodus 3:14: "And God said unto Moses, 'I AM that I AM': then said, thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."
In John 8:58: "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM."
So from this, we understand that it was Jesus, who called himself to Moses, I AM. So the discription of every furniture, every part of the tabernacle was given by Jesus to Moses. This is important as Jesus is telling Moses and the children of Israel much about himself and what he would be doing for us.
The second thing that I want to bring up, which is the heart of our understanding of what Jesus is presently doing now as the High Priest. We must understand, where did the ideas of discription of this tabernacle come from with Jesus.
Ex 25: 8 and 9: "And let them make me a Sanctuary that I may dwell among you. According to all that I show thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it."
Heb 8:5 "Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle."
From this we now begin to understand that it was Jesus who showed Moses the form in which this tabernacle was to take. It was a pattern of the one in heaven. The one made by hands is different somewhat from the one on earth in that some of the materials, that made up some parts of the curtains or walls of the sanctuary was skin of animals. But the embroidery of the angels inside of the Most Holy Place is correct in that in the heavenly, Most Holy Place angels are there about.
John, in revelation saw in vision the candlesticks, the ark of the testiment, etc. in heaven. This becomes important and clear as we learn more about the sanctuary and the Sanctuary Message given to us through the Bible studies of our pioneers and the visions of Ellen G. White.
The study and understanding of the Sanctuary is the center of our very message as doctrine and of Jesus. This message sets us apart from any other denomination as being given the gift of prophecy by Jesus to us.
The key verses in Revelation that is the core of the reason that we exist is:
Rev 12:17 "And the dragon was wroth with the women and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God and the TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST."
Rev; 19:10 "...for the TESTIMONY OF JESUS is the Spirit of Prophecy."
From this starting point I will also share some of what I see of the sanctuary itself. Richard and Gary have given you some very good things so far.
I enjoy this opportunity to share with you and please keep your questions coming.
Liane
Post by: Harry Elliott on April 10, 2001, 09:16:00 PM
Post by: Richard Myers on April 11, 2001, 07:12:00 AM
Brother Harry, I think the altar of burnt offering and the laver would be good, But if you like we can go back out to the door of the courtyard and the curtains. :)
And of course the lamb and the sinner are the focal points. :)
Richard
Post by: Harry Elliott on April 11, 2001, 05:30:00 PM
--Harry
Post by: Liane H on April 14, 2001, 04:00:00 PM
Finally getting grounded since I have been back from my vacation trip. Interesting experience to say the least.
In light of your last post I wish to share some initial background for the Sinner, Blood and the Lamb. I am sure this is all very basic and known by you, but I wanted a starting point for these three words before we got deeper. Then I hope that Richard as well as others and myself will share the deeper aspects of the daily service.
Lamb:
Some history of the Lamb and the application as the sacrifice.
Genesis 4:2
"And she again bare His brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep."
Verse 4: "And Abel, He also brought the FIRSLINGS of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering."
What was it that Abel understood that Cain did not? Was it the understanding of the sacrifice that would be necessary for the salvation of mankind.
Passover
Exodus 12:5 "Your lamb shall be without BLEMISH, a MALE of the FIRST year. These bolded words have great significance in reference to Jesus and the sacrifice he would make thousand of years later. The choice of an animal had, whether it was, a lamb, a bird, or whatever the family could afford to bring, had to meet these three tests for it to be used as a sacrifice for sin."
Jesus
Isaiah 53:7 "He was oppressed, and He was afflicted, yet He opened not his mouth. He is brought as a LAMB to the slaughter, and as a SHEEP before her shearers, is dumb, so He openeth not his mouth."
John 1:29 "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the LAMB of God, which taketh away the SIN of the world."
John the Baptist understood also as did Abel the principle of the LAMB and the understanding of the sacrifice that was yet to come. The word LAMB was chosen by John for that reason.
Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship Him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the LAMB slain from the foundation of the world."
Two points here. Again the choice of the word LAMB and that this sacrifice was not for those that accept Jesus, but for the whole world, even those that reject this sacrifice will acknowledge that this LAMB slain from the foundation of the world, those names that ARE NOT written in the book of life will one day also worship Him. Not in the reverence as the saved will, but none the less will acknowledge that He did die for them.
1 Peter 1:19 "But with the precious BLOOD of Christ, as of a LAMB without BLEMISH and without spot.
Who verily was forordained before the foundation of the world"
We see that the plan of salvation, the type and antitype would be met in the symbols that would be passed onto each generation. FIRSTBORN, WITHOUT BLEMISH, and the concept of BLOOD.
Back to the Old Testament
Genesis 9:4 "But flesh with the life thereof which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat."
Blood is the life source for every living thing. It is in the BLOOD that Jesus would shed for our sins that would redeem us.
Hebrews 9:22 "And almost all things are by the law purged with BLOOD: and without the shedding of blood is no remission of sins."
1 John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the BLOOD of Jesus Christ His son cleanseth us from all sin."
Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith, in His BLOOD, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forebearing of God."
It is through the experience of the literal children of Israel that partook of the daily sacrifice, that we of spiritual Israel see Jesus so clearly now. Type meets Antitype. The Bible is not really two different books, but one whole book of the story of Jesus. It is out of these books fused together we come to understand the character of God. The cross stand as the centerpiece of Christ and His righteousness and the Love that came forth from the Godhead in their dealings with sinful mankind. It is with the BLOOD of Jesus Christ that we have and are given eternal life.
What imagery Jesus has given us through the daily Sanctuary service that we will come to understand each and every thing that Jesus did to help us understand the price, the hope and the grace that gives our faith meaning today.
Liane
Post by: Harry Elliott on April 14, 2001, 07:48:00 PM
Hi Liane--
You certainly identified the only reason I know of to study the Hebrew sanctuary: :)
“It is through the experience of the literal children of Israel that partook of the daily sacrifice, that we of spiritual Israel see Jesus so clearly now.“
So what exactly was their experience partaking of the daily sacrifice? Surely to understand that experience, we need to study the scriptural description. Don’t the passages you mentioned pertain to an annual experience, namely the Passover?
--Harry
Post by: Richard Myers on April 14, 2001, 08:01:00 PM
In regards to the trespass offering "every male among the priests shall eat thereof: it shall be eaten in the holy place..." Lev. 7:6.
The offering of the ram was required for forgiveness and the flesh of the ram must be eaten in the holy place. We shall come back to this when we look at the offerings, but suffice it to say that the lamb, ram, pigeon, etc. represented Jesus, our sacrifice. Forgiveness would come after the confession of known sin and the killing of the sacrificial ram. The ram was killed in consequence of the sin. In type the sins of the guilty had been transferred to the innocent ram. The wages of sin is death. Of course we know that the blood of the ram would never atone for any sins, it was only a type (shadow) to teach the Israelites and the world that Jesus would gladly bear our sins and our punishment, IF we would confess our sins and accept Christ as our Sacrifice.
Richard
Post by: Liane H on April 14, 2001, 08:15:00 PM
Yes the Passover is a yearly event, but why I brought it up and mentioned it, is for two reasons.
It was the first experience that the literal children of Israel of drawing them to the understanding of the true Passover Lamb, Jesus Christ.
Just before this, while still under bondage, they were given the experience of blood protecting them from death while in Egypt. The marking of the blood on the doorposts signified God protection. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin, so therefore if you are not covered by the blood of Jesus, then one is not saved.
As a new people, having lived under pagan rule for over 400 years, they had lost what God had given to them because of the bondage and time. The Passover was the first real experience given to them by God as to the meaning of what it means to be a child of God. This was the first teaching to them of what it means to be the firstborn, without blemish, a lamb. All these symbols tell us of Jesus.
In 1 Corinthians 5:7 "Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavend. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us."
Just as for us, which are spiritual children of Israel in Christ are to become a new lump, so it was for the literal children of Israel with the Passover experience, they became a new lump.
God reminds the literal children of Israel that they once were in bondage to Egypt and that He made a way out for them. God continues to do that for us, through the BLOOD of Jesus, makes a way out for us from sin, freeing us from the bondage of sin.
Liane
Post by: Harry Elliott on April 15, 2001, 05:51:00 PM
Excellent exegesis! :) I just love digging into the exact wording of a passage.
You are certainly correct in pointing out that the sins of Leviticus 6 are deliberate--in contrast to the sins of ignorance of the preceding chapter. I can’t imagine anyone innocently defrauding a neighbor.
While reading this in other translations, I concluded that the KJV may be misleading when it says that the trespass offering is to be eaten by the priests in “the holy place”, since the KJV term for the second apartment is “the holy place”. My REB does a better job, I think, when it says, “The priest who officiates is to eat of the flesh; it must be eaten in a sacred place, in the court of the Tent of Meeting”. (Lev 6:26)
One other point, I mention for the sake of precision. The only place I have found in the Bible (so far) that actually mentions placing sin upon an animal offering is Lev 16:21, “putting them on the head of the goat” to be bourne out of the camp. Do you know of any passage that actually declares that sins are put upon an animal that is to die within the camp? That’s the prevailing assumption, but it would be nice to have a specific confirmation.
--Harry
Post by: Harry Elliott on April 15, 2001, 05:53:00 PM
Beautiful thoughts. :)
--Harry
Post by: Richard Myers on April 15, 2001, 08:23:00 PM
You make mention of the KJV being in error in regards to the use of the words Holy Place. If there was one fault that I attribute to many who teach the Bible, it is their willingess to set aside so much of the Bible in favor of someone's suggestion that the Hebrew and the Greek say something different than what the Bible says. I know, Brother Harry, you did not do this, you quoted another "bible". Well, there are bibles many and I guess all can choose which one fits their particular ideas. I do not choose to find a Bible that fits my ideas. I chose the KJV because it is consistent and it was written in a time when Babylon had not fallen and was printing their own Bibles.
In a discussion with Desmond Ford, I understood his gospel to be other than the one Jesus has given us, and when he began to attempt to change Seventh-day Adventist theology (changing Holy Place to Most Holy Place), I took a look at the Greek to see how he was twisting the language. I am not fluent in Greek, matter of fact I don't know it, but I can understand that what he was trying to do, is just plain wrong. The use of the Greek may very well be interpreted the way the KJV has done.
Now, we do not have to argue over the Greek for the Bible is consistent and we shall see that Seventh-day Adventist theology has been correct in regards to the gospel including the judgment which began in 1844.
Line upon line, precept upon precept we shall see the power of God's grace to cleanse us from our unrighteousness no matter how many new Bibles attempt to hide the power of His love. :)
Richard
Post by: Harry Elliott on April 16, 2001, 08:59:00 PM
I’m pretty sure that you wouldn’t agree with the KJV’s assurance that the theif would be in paradise that day. :)
Are you saying that Aaron’s sons went into the second apartment to eat the trespass offerings?(!)
--Harry
Post by: Richard Myers on April 17, 2001, 04:36:00 AM
Let us continue in the courtyard that all may learn of the power of God's grace and the certainty of His judgment.
Post by: Allan F on April 29, 2001, 02:31:00 PM
In the sanctuary we see that God do not force anybody. Even though He don't use force he surely uses power. The power of love, "the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance" (Rom 2:4). No one forced the sinner to go into the courtyard. He had to use his own free will in order to get there. In the same way as the israelites had to look up to the serpent in the wilderness in order to be healed, we too must use our free will, cooperate with God and look in faith, even though the whole world is telling us that this is "science fiction".
But sometimes God can put us into situations that will help us to make the right use of our free will. In Leviticus 26 we read about the two possible futures for the jews. God wants to help us in choosing him. In the first 13 verses God reveals his future plan A and all the blessings He will give them. But if they don't want to choose him as their God, he can not bless them, and future plan B will be the reality. But God can turn plan B into something good. All the bad things that was going to happen the Israelites if they chose away God had only ONE purpose: to help them confess their iniquity and humble their uncircumcised hearts (v. 40-41).
When I was a little child (3-4 years old), I really loved my little brother (I still do!). But there was a short period of time where I in pure love for him went too far in expressing that love. Just of a sudden I would bite him. Of course my brother would cry, but I didn't seem to really understand the seriousness of the situation. At last my mother had to bite me (of course not so hard as I did) in order for me to understand that what I did to my brother was not so good. That worked! (I am still a vegetarian :) )
So it is with God. He may also use different methods in order for us to open our eyes and realize our fatal situation. In some cases he may hinder us from harm other people, but He does not force us to himself.
At the altar there are two possibilities: Either I can give my sins to Jesus, or I can choose to hold on them. Then it is I that have to suffer on the altar. It is life or death. We should therefore not be surprised when God sometimes has to "shout" or expose us to some unwanted situations. He loves us too much just to say: "Well, I am sorry that you don't want to live a happy life together with me and the rest of the universe, for all eternity." No, He does everything that is possible for every unbeliever in order to lead them to the sanctuary and to heaven. Much of his work and methods we do not see now, but one day we will be able to ask God in every detail how he led us to him and eternity. I am looking forward to these testimony meetings !
Allan F
Post by: DavidTBattler on April 29, 2001, 08:05:00 PM
"Hi Richard--
I’m pretty sure that you wouldn’t agree with the KJV’s assurance that the theif would be in paradise that day.
Are you saying that Aaron’s sons went into the second apartment to eat the trespass offerings?(!)
--Harry"
Hello Harry
I am going to be direct with you if it's OK?
I have had Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses use the above approach in an attempt to discredit the Bible to me, and make me lose my faith in the Word of God, so that I would believe "their word of god."
Now, I'm not saying this is what you are doing; but I am asking you to clarify to us why you are making such statements about God's Word?
I am currently teaching a class on How To Study The Bible; and I'm not sure I understand your "hermeneutics" or your "theology," or your "soteriology." here. :)
------------------
"...We believe that through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, we shall be saved..." (Acts 15:11).
Your brother in Christ
David T. Battler
Post by: Liane H on April 30, 2001, 03:36:00 PM
In my error to learn certain things I had little understanding of the daily of the sanctuary, and boldly went to the year of atonement first, I guess you could say I took the cart in front of the horse.
So what have I learned lately. The outer court which contained the lavar and the alter for the burnt offerings is written only for the earthly. There is no mention of the outer court with the heavenly sanctuary.
There is reason. Because the outer court and the sin process was only related to the death of Jesus, so therefore there was a place for the outer court in which there is no heavenly pattern, only the sanctuary itself which contained the holy and most holy place and the objects therein can be seen elsewhere throughout the Bible.
Jesus was to be crucified on the earth, not in heaven, so the need for the imagery and process of the outer court was necessary.
So this is as much as I have come to understand so far. I had not forgotten, just found myself realizing that the daily is new to me. I understood the overview, but never studied this deeply before.
Liane
Post by: Allan F on May 01, 2001, 09:52:00 AM
In the courtyard we learn about sin and its consequences. The holy place is where we learn how to walk in righteousness by the Spirit. And the most holy gives us a knowledge about the judgment.
I agree with you concerning what you said about the earth as being the antitype of the courtyard. Heaven, thus must be the antitype of the tabernacle. It seems logical to me so far.
Allan F
Post by: Harry Elliott on May 05, 2001, 03:23:00 PM
You wrote, “I am going to be direct with you if it's OK?”
By all means. :)
“I have had Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses use the above approach in an attempt to discredit the Bible to me, and make me lose my faith in the Word of God, so that I would believe "their word of god."
“Now, I'm not saying this is what you are doing; but I am asking you to clarify to us why you are making such statements about God's Word?”
To understand one another, it’s essential to read everything written here in context. I’m sure you would agree with that.
I had mentioned in passing that the KJV OT uses the term “holy place” to refer to the inner apartment, but that sometimes it uses the same term to refer to other sanctuary locations. Other translations are careful to use different terms for the inner apartment and the other locations.
I consider the “real” Bible to be the thoughts that its writers were tryiing to convey to us. The original Hebrew and Greek came closest to those thoughts. Since most of us cannot read the original languages,we are dependent on translations.
I do not believe any translation is inspired. Some treat the KJV as inspired. I have no interest in persuading them otherwise. I believe this subject is thoroughly discussed in the SDA Bible Commentary.
Thanks for asking.
--Harry
Post by: Harry Elliott on May 05, 2001, 03:38:00 PM
I believe that our church has traditionally used the term “sanctuary” to refer to all three areas. Certainly on the Day of Atonement, the courtyard and its altar were expressly cleansed by the sprinkling the same blood as the two apartments.
Have you concluded that there will be no antitypical cleansing of the courtyard by our High Priest?
--Harry
Post by: Harry Elliott on May 05, 2001, 03:47:00 PM
“The holy place is where we learn how to walk in righteousness by the Spirit. And the most holy gives us a knowledge about the judgment.”
I like the sound of that. But it’s not clear to me how the typical service teaches us anything about judgment in the Most Holy Place that is not taught in the other parts of the sanctuary.
Do you have any thoughts on this?
--Harry
Post by: Liane H on May 05, 2001, 05:27:00 PM
I will try to answer this the best that I know how. If any brethren can give better, or correct where I err, please do so.
Your questions was: "Have you concluded that there will be no antitypical cleansing of the courtyard by our High Priest?"
WOW that is quite a question! If I understand your question, this is the answer I can give you.
We are talking about the daily, not the day of Atonement. If we are, then Jesus is not represented as the High Priest, but as the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. The type and antitype as far as the couryard has its correlation on the earth, there is no heavenly type or antitype in heaven for the courtyard of the daily or the Day of Atonement.
The work of the High Priest takes place only in the Most Holy Place in which there is a type and antitype on earth and in heaven in which our Lord Jesus partakes as the High Priest. There is no activity for the High Priest in the courtyard until after the cleansing of the Most Holy Place.
The earthly High Priest does nothing in the first room, called the Holy Place on the day of Atonement, only as a Priest in the daily. The two things that the High Priest did in the courtyard on the Day of Atonement was to kill the animal, take the blood and also coal off the alter as an offer of incense unto the Lord within the veil.
If my understanding is correct, Jesus is the Lamb in the courtyard, not the Priest or High Priest. The only type and antitype in the couryard is linked to the earth and the earth only.
Yet the High Priest does not do the burnt offering in the courtyard until after he has taken off the High Priest garments and has washed himself.
So therefore, Jesus also will not do any courtyard type and antitype until after he leaves the Most Holy Place and has taken off the garments of a High Priest and puts on the garments as King of kings and of vengeance.
The only type and antitype that I can see will again center on the earth in the final destruction of the wicked and Satan and his angels in that Great Day of the Lord of the courtyard activity of the day of Atonement of the final burnt offerings linked with the final destruction.
It is nice to be back and conversing with you. Hope this helps and please let me know what you think.
Liane
Post by: Harry Elliott on May 06, 2001, 04:19:00 PM
Good to be back. :)
Hmmm.
“The earthly High Priest does nothing in the first room, called the Holy Place on the day of Atonement, only as a Priest in the daily.”
Actually, the High Priest does more in the first room on the day of Atonement than in the second room. He changes clothes there twice. He bathes there twice. He sprinkles the blood of each of the two sin offerings there, just as he does in the second room--after he does so in the second room and before he does so in the courtyard. All this before he confesses the sins of the congregation on the head of the scapegoat and sacrifices the Day of Atonement burnt offerings. (According to Leviticus 16).
As to the courtyard, the High Priest sacrifices the two sin offerings there, each sacrifice of course happening BEFORE taking its blood into the tabernacle. And he cleanses the courtyard by the same blood sprinklings as in the two apartments BEFORE the scapegoat business.
I don’t know where we got the idea that the High Priest’s work on the Day of Atonement was exclusively in the Most Holy Place, but it’s widespread.
Another misconception is that the High Priest put on his high priestly garments only on the Day of Atonement. Actually, he took them OFF before he cleansed the sanctuary, and put them back on for the rest of his Day of Atonement ministry. These beautiful vestments, described in Exodus, chapters 28 and 39, were worn for all his other duties. While cleansing the three parts of the sanctuary, he wore simple linen garments. (Lev 16:4, 24)
So you see why I have a hard time matching our traditional antitypical model to the typical service.
--Harry
Post by: Richard Myers on May 06, 2001, 05:43:00 PM
Post by: Liane H on May 07, 2001, 05:49:00 PM
It is most interesting when one reads and reads scriptures and miss one little word.
Thank you for continuing this study as I am learning much.
Yes you are correct in verse 24 of Leviticus 16, it does state that the High Priest washed and changed garments was in the holy place. It is not clearly written in verse 4, but I would assume it is the same.
There are second set of garments which include: Linen under garment, embroidered coat, embroidered girdle, mitre with gold plate, blue robe of the ephod, ephod with onyx stones, breastplate and curious girdle.
The only record I could find of when the High Priest wore these garments was in Leviticus 8 at the consecration of the priests. I see no indication that he wore these garments during the Day of Atonement. I will study of this further.
Otherwise, from what I can see, I am still not seeing any other activity in the first apartment or what is called the holy place in which took place the Day of Atonement for the High Priest.
Verse 13- he puts the incense upon the fire before the Lord, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not. This fire was in a censer or pan and he put the incense on the fire which was in the pan at the foot of the mercy seat. This is different than the incense that is put on the altar of incense in the holy place.
Verse 14- The sprinkling of the blood seven times happens upon the mercy seat eastward and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his fingers seven times.
This is the Most Holy Place.
verse 15, he then comes out and kills the goat and goes back into the most holy place again and "do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock."
This again is also the Most Holy Place.
verse 18, he shall GO OUT unto the alter that is before the Lord, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat and put it upon the horns of the altar round about.
verse 19, And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his fingers seven times and cleanse it and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.
Which altar are they talking about? It states he "GO OUT," must mean that he left the sanctuary and went out into the courtyard. The altar spoken of then is the altar of the burnt offering and the horns thereof. The altar of incense did not need to be cleaned from the uncleanness of the children of Israel, it was the altar of prayer.
My choice of the word "only" regarding the Most Holy Place, which is poorly used, was to mean that he did "only" in the Most Holy Place and not in the Holy Place as far as the sanctuary is concern.
There is still some question in my mind of to know whether the morning and evening offerings were still done on that day , if so, then yes the High Priest did go into the Holy Place during that day.
Please explain more why you have a hard time matching our traditional antitypical model to the typical service?
Liane
Post by: jherbertthompson on May 07, 2001, 06:41:00 PM
It would seem to me that the basic reason why God gave His People a 'Type' of the 'Heavenly Sancturary' is that He needed to 'draw pictures on the wall' for a people who for, four-hundred and fifty years, 'lost track' of the 'God of their Fathers'? They had developed some of the most unhealthy and abhorant habits known at that time in history. They had been assimilated into the heathen culture, and basically needed a 'thunder and earthquaking experience' to 'wake them up'!
After Sinai, He [God] set up a testing station so-to-speak. He re-created for His people from the simpilest of examples a means to [a] re-gain their confidence(s); gain their willing worship; [c] and present to them a picture of what the 'Story of Salvation' was in order that they might 'spread the Good News' about the Truth about God... The Sancturary and it's services were to point their eyes to a 'Coming Redeemer'. The one promised in the 'First Covenant'. And, had they kept on line with His instruction; there would have been a completely different response to His [Jesus's] 'First Coming'. Don't you think? But sadly, they did not; and we all know the rest of the story...We however have to a greater extent the advantage over those during the OT times...We may, with honesty and open mindedness, look to, and comprehend the last page of this book! The Sanctuary, Investigative Judgement, and Prophecies must all be understood clearly for those who will be 'waiting in that remnant band' when Jesus comes...It is my prayer to be in that band. And that all those here may be also Sincerely your brother in Christ,
The best vitamin for the Christian is 'B1'!
Post by: Liane H on May 07, 2001, 07:45:00 PM
Thank you for joining us here in the discussion of the Hebrew Sanctuary.
I have come to learn that the more one reads the Word the more one sees something that they did not see before. Each facet or view brings new and/or deeper meaning to what we learn. That is why we join together, write and share.
If I read someplace correct, Moses lived in Egypt for forty years. It was another forty years that took him to learn the lessons needed to be ready before he could bring the people out of Egypt. It was another forty years for the people to learn the lessons.
For a people who had been in bondage for 400 years, generation after generation, so few really knew the true God, the I AM. It is amazing that they were able to do it in 40 years. We know that God was their teacher, guiding them through, precept by precept.
The Sanctuary was the center of their very lives, day by day. The teacher and redeemer revealed in every piece of wood, fabric, metal and object. It must have been quite an experience as they gave of their gold, jewels, and watched it be built. Nothing is done without a purpose by God. There was and is a lesson to be learned and revealed regarding Salvation and our Lord Jesus in the Sanctuary.
Yes, you are right on target.
Liane
Post by: Harry Elliott on May 08, 2001, 10:14:00 AM
I could be wrong, of course, but I assume that the reason for the High Priest’s impressive costume was to dramatize to the people the importance of the office, and that therefore he would wear them at every reasonable opportunity. I can’t imagine him NOT wearing them while officating on high days. My take is that his instructions not to wear them during the cleansing portion of the Day of Atonement was to identify an exception.
I’m glad you got specific about the description in Lev 16. The cleansing of the first apartment is very easy to miss, especially in the KJV.
I agree fully with what you said about verses 13-15 and 18-19. But I’d like to call your attention to verse 16. Verse 16a summarizes the cleansing of the inner apartment. “And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins:”
The key hides in 16b.
“and SO shall he do for the TABERNACLE OF THE CONGREGATION [the outer apartment], that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.” (KJV)
It’s a lot plainer in most other translations:
“He is to do the same for the Tent of Meeting which is among them in the midst of their uncleanness.” (NIV)
This is reinforced by verse 20:
“And when he hath make an end of reconciling [1] the holy place, and [2] the tabernacle of the congregation, and [3] the altar, he shall bring the live goat:”
Clearly, he cleansed each of these three areas of the sanctuary by sprinkling the blood of each animal seven times in each area. Wouldn’t you agree?
--Harry
Post by: Harry Elliott on May 08, 2001, 10:16:00 AM
I think we can only decide what Jesus, the antitypical High Priest will do by carefully studying what the typical High Priest did.
The typical High Priest wore his usual high priestly garments before and after the cleansing, and simple linen clothing during the cleansing, right? If this is correct, then the sequence was:
1) He brought the ram and goat to the sanctuary wearing the usual vestments, the ones with the bells and pomegranates, etc.
2) He bathed and changed into the simple linen garments in the outer apartment. (V 4)
3) He cleansed the three parts of the sanctuary.
4) He confessed all the sins of the people over the scapegoat and sent it out of the camp to perish.
5) He bathed again in the outer apartment and put on his regular high priestly attire. (V23)
6) He offered the special Day of Atonement burnt offerings mentioned in verses 3 and 5. (V24)
So we see that according to Leviticus 16, the High Priest did *not * change clothes between the cleansing of the second apartment and the cleansing of the altar in the courtyard. Right?
If you see the typical High Priest removing garments between veses 16 and 18, please point it out. Otherwise, we must conclude that this service does *not* teach us that the antitypical High Priest removes any garments before cleansing the antitypical courtyard altar.
What do you think?
--Harry
Post by: jherbertthompson on May 08, 2001, 11:33:00 AM
Although I'm not sure I will accept in it's entirity the "forensic view"; I do believe that it qualify's our belief's as a "peculiar people"...[I have somewhat against the belief however that we must be persecuted because of or peculiar belief's...I have always believed that one "should be willing to be persecuted even to the death for his/her belief in Christ Jesus; on the other hand; one might ask if he/she is being "persecuted on the account of Jesus' sake", or on/because of their own private agenda?]
Thank to all for putting up with a newby...
May God bless all...Every one you meet today is on God's "Most Wanted List"!
Post by: Allan F on May 08, 2001, 01:01:00 PM
Your qoute: "It’s not clear to me how the typical service teaches us anything about judgment in the Most Holy Place that is not taught in the other parts of the sanctuary. Do you have any thoughts on this?"
I agree with you that we may learn about the judgment outside of 'The Most Holy'. The very first thing visible when entering into the sanctuary, was the ashes from the offerings. This was what gave Asaph (in Psalm 73) an answer to what will happen to the transgressors at the end of time. If we do not give our heart and sins to Jesus he can not save us, and we must die for our own sins. As the 'daily' reveals, we may come to the 'the altar' every day 365 days a year. God is always ready to forgive us when we sin.
But, what 'the altar' doesn't tell us is the time for the judgment. The Day of Atonement, the only day when The Most Holy Place was "active", tells us that at the end of history, before his second coming (the feast of the tabernacles), God will judge his church (not the world). The only question he will ask, is: "Who are living in the covenant?" (symbolized by the ark of the covenant). When the judgment is finished the destiny of every soul are determined for eternity. After the Day of Atonement, there went some days before the feast of tabernacles arrived. This tells us that the time of probation will not last unto the second coming of Jesus. It will end some time before, but close to this event. This understanding is important, biblical but makes adventism unique in christianity. In Acts 3:19-21 Peter gives us the order in which things must take place:
1) Repent and be converted,
2) that the sins may be blotted out (completed in the final atonement),
3) when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord (pointing to the mighty outpouring of God's Spirit);
4) And he shall send Jesus Christ, whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things.
But, the following is a common view in christianity today: First Jesus will come (4). Then, for 1000 years the jews (and others) will share the gospel all over the world. The Holy Spirit will work with great power (3), and as a result, almost the whole world will repent and be converted (1). This is quite the opposite order!
Just briefly another aspect that only the Most Holy Place and the day of atonement reveals:
Satan will be given the entire responsibility for the sin, and will suffer for all the sins that the ones who will be saved have ever committed.
I look forward to your comments, Harry.
Allan F
Post by: Liane H on May 08, 2001, 04:27:00 PM
Thank you for pointing out verse 16 to me more clearly. I had always put verse 15 and 16 together, but going back to my Jewish Bible, where I missed it also, it is also very clear.
Verse 16:
"And he shall do the same for the Tent of Meeting."
Verse 20:
When he had finished purging the Shrine, the Tent of Meeting and the altar."
I am still having trouble though with the garments. There still is no indication that he wore the Special Garments listed in my previous post on the Day of Atonement. The only place I could find was in Leviticus 8. Since I cannot see any other indication within the Bible, my feeling is we can really be sure other than looking at tradition.
Liane
Post by: Harry Elliott on May 08, 2001, 07:20:00 PM
I'd be interested in what tradition has to say about that too. I have a hard time picturing the High Priest wearing civies for any official ministry.
--Harry
Post by: Harry Elliott on May 08, 2001, 07:54:00 PM
“ The Day of Atonement, the only day when The Most Holy Place was "active", tells us that at the end of history, before his second coming (the feast of the tabernacles), God will judge his church (not the world).”
I don’t remember hearing the Feast of Tabernacles equated with the end of the world before. It may be worth noting that both of these events came LONG before the end of the sacred year defined by God. (7th month versus 12th) One would think that if God meant these to symbolize end-time events, that He would have made them end-year events.
The reason I fail to see how the cleansing of the Most Holy Place teaches something that the cleansing of the others does not is the fact that the same method is used to cleanse each: the sprinkling of each animals blood seven times.
It seems to me that the various applications you make, while not unreasonable, are subjective.
The problem with subjective applications is that they can neither be proven or disproven. All of them might be right, but might be wrong, because there is no objective scriptural test that can be made.
So I guess my comment would be: interesting and thoughtful, but we’ll have to wait and see. :)
--Harry
Post by: Harry Elliott on May 09, 2001, 08:32:00 AM
Your gracious acceptance of the two points I raised set me to thinking. I didn’t catch them for many years either. It occurs to me that it we could miss them, reading Lev 16 at leisure, then our pioneers could have missed them too, considering the pressure they were under.
Maybe that’s why they pictured Jesus wearing the vestment with the bells and pomegranates into the Most Holy Place, and had Him go directly from there to the scapegoat.
Any thoughts?
--Harry
Post by: Allan F on May 09, 2001, 11:38:00 AM
I only have time to answer the first part of your comments now, considering The Feast of Tabernacles and what it symbolizes and how it relates to history. I would appreciate if you would be more specific about were I am subjective.
Some of this you will find in the SDA-BC:
Although the feast of tabernacles came two weeks after the end of the civil calendar year, it was actually the celebration of the close of the agricultural year and was referred to as "the feast of ingathering... in the end of the year" (Ex 23:16). It was a joyous occasion for all. On the Day of Atonement the people were to afflict their souls. At the Feast of Tabernacles they were to "rejoice". It was altogether the happiest occasion of the year, when friends and neighbours dwelt together in love and harmony. In this respect it was prophetic of the time when the great ingathering of God's people shall take place (Rev 14:14-16). As Jesus was the anti type of the sheaf of the firstfruits (Lev 23:10,11 - passover) the rejoice over the great ingathering of his people at the end of time is the anti type of The Feast of Tabernacles.
When we consider the jewish feasts (Lev 23), they reveal the ministry of Jesus and the history of his church in chronological order. The passover and pentecost are linked together. The passover took place at the beginning of the year (in the beginning of the christian history) and symbolized the death and ressurrection (v.11) of Jesus. Then, "shall ye number fifty days" (v.16) which leads us to the pentecost. In this way these two feasts are linked together in time. From the first (passover) we can directly calculate the other. This means that we could calculate how long time it would go from Jesus' ressurection to the pentecost. But we can not calculate The Day of Atonement from the time of pentecost by simply counting the days in between. We may only know that the antitype of the Day of Atonement will take place after pentecost and at the end of history (Dan 8:17,27). We need a prophecy in order to break through the yearly circle of feasts. And that prophecy we find in Daniel 8 and 9. This helps us to calculate the date 1844. The last feast, The Feast of Tabernacles, we only know comes after the Day of Atonement (judgment). We have no prophecy to settle this date, and it is not directly linked with the Day of Atonement (as the passover is linked with the pentecost). In this way we do not know how long time it will take from the judgment is finished (Rev 15:8) to the time when the ingathering takes place and the spiritual "agricultural year" is over (Rev 14:15,16) and the eternal rejoice will begin (anti type of Feast of Tabernacles).
This was a bit dry, but I hope it makes sense :)
Allan F
Post by: Harry Elliott on May 09, 2001, 08:14:00 PM
I’m glad you didn’t take my remark about subjeciveness as a criticism in the pejoritive sense of the word. To me, it’s subjective when we make an application, and objective when the Bible explicitly makes the application. For instance, if the Bible told us that the High Priest performed an investigative judgment in the Most Holy Place, I would consider that objective evidence.
Thanks for the the SDA BC material. I don’t find it to be dry, but I do find it equivocal.
They did not mention the text on the subject that is UNequivocal:
“This month [when they left Egypt] shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.” (Ex 12:2)
The “tenth day of the seventh month” is also unequivocal. As far as I can recall, the Bible never numbers the months in any other way.
“In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the lord’s passover.” (Lev 23:5)
“Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement” (Lev 23:27
Etc.
I don’t think a reference to an ingathering feast at the end of the harvest year serves to overrule the numerous explicit statements regarding God’s definition of the beginning and numbering of the months of the year.
In fact their selection of words to excerpt seems almost disingenuous. They should have finished the sentence in Ex 23:16. “...which is in the end of the year WHEN THOU HAST GATHERED IN THY LABOURS OUT OF THE FIELD.”
So I think it’s fair to say that God’s decision to put the Day of Atonement in the seventh month instead of the twelfth, is certainly not an endorsement of it as an end-time event.
--Harry
Post by: Liane H on May 10, 2001, 04:13:00 AM
Your question "Any thoughts?" has brought me to Hebrews in the New Testament in looking for an answer.
This is brief, as I am writing this before going to work. I will need to study further and will get back to you.
Again thank you for this opportunity in study. It has given me the desire to study deeper of which in the past I never took.
Some verses in Hebrews gives me the insight into what our pioneers saw and in that they did not miss anything as they went beyond where we are right now in the study and where we will go.
The missing for ME of the holy place or the Tent of Meeting could be as the work of Jesus in the Most Holy Place has not been completed. My study had not gotten that far as I did not see it. It is something to think about and to look at.
Hebrews 4:14
"Seeing then that we have a GREAT high priest that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession."
Hebrews 8:6
"But now hath he obtained a more EXCELLENT ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a BETTER covenant, which is establised upon better promises."
Hebrews 9:11
"But Christ being come a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building."
The high priest of the earthly tabernacle was a mortal man, following and administrating as the representative of the children of Israel, and he was a mortal man who had to do the administration for himself of the blood, whereas Christ knew and commited no sins.
So yes there is some differences of the Day of Atonement for the earthly tabernacle with the high priest, but the cleansing of the sanctuary has significant counterparts with greater meaning and with a finish that will change the whole course of life as we know it today on this planet.
These are just simple thoughts being put forth this early morning with the need for deeper and better study.
Liane
Post by: Richard Myers on May 10, 2001, 07:01:00 AM
"And the priest shall put on his linen garment, and his linen breeches shall he put upon his flesh, and take up the ashes which the fire hath consumed with the burnt offering on the altar, and he shall put them beside the altar.
And he shall put off his garments, and put on the other garments, and carry forth the ashes without the camp unto a clean place." Lev. 6:10,11.
If this does not teach that Jesus will purify the earth from the vestiges of sin, what does it teach in your opinion?
Post by: jherbertthompson on May 10, 2001, 10:21:00 AM
At-any-rate, here goes some of the thoughts running through my one brain cell :)
Allan F raised the thought that the "time of refreshing" pointing to the "Latter Rain" is in some way related to his other three points: [1] Repent and be converted; [2] Sins to be ultimately blotted out in the final atonement in the Heavenly Sanctuary; [3] Christ "sent" as the (final?) restitution of all things.
A] I really cannot see the corelation between the Refreshing and the Latter Rain in regard to either the earthly or heavenly sanctuaries. Could some one [Allan] explain?
B] Does not 'conversion' imply a 'change in heart' which is 'true repentance? Sort of backwards to the way Allan placed them. But it does raise an issue worth mentioning (IMO). Especially in the evengilical protestant theology, the idea of 'repent or be killed' seems prevelant today...One preacher on the Christian radio broadcast I listen to daily makes this statement: "Time is short and hell is hot"! This is a 'mentality' which I do not think belongs in relationship to the 'character of the God' whom I worship...What do y'all think?
David and Ezekiel both refer to this 'heart change'...Without which there would be now hope for man...Leading to the question which, from the first time I heard it has boggeled my mind: What is the problem with sin that the Plan of Salvation was intended to fix?
I've no doubt that all are able to, after following this to its furthest extrimity. To hold the view that the atonement is simply a manifestation of the love of God for humanity and not God's objective solution for the sin problem...
It follows that the atonement is a personal matter and operates in a personal relationship restoring the sinner back into a 'right relationship' with God'...However, and (IMO), this is all to often weighed disproportionately [the sin problem] with the definition of sin which range in degree from 'sin which merely alienates man from his Creator'; to, 'sin as a legal' [we have brooken the rules, now some one must be punished] or forensic adjustment idea which must be acted out in order that the account on the books in heaven may remain justified to the 'wrath of God against sin'.
I personally believe that from its inception
[sin], was additionally more than a mere state of 'lawlessness' or 'rebellion'. Sin does even more than alienate man from his relationship with God. Sin 'damages' [mortally] the sinner...Repeated sin 'hardens the heart against God'. I think first of all about the story of Pharaoh. God there 'hardens' Pharaoh's heart...Exodus 7 thur 11.
Pharaoh (IMO) essentially 'hardened his own heart', chose NOT to follow the commandment of God to let His people go. In doing so, Pharaoh became as those who are found outside the Heavenly Gates, unrepentant, unhealable sinner's who would literally parish in the presence of God, and the admittance into heaven would be to them a true horror. Therefore, we must properly assert both the 'love of God'; and, His 'righteousness and justice' in order to further 'define' the terms and conditions of 'Atonement'... [subjective & objective views] Whatcha think?
Be kind and really confuse them! Your brother in Christ...
Post by: Richard Myers on May 10, 2001, 12:59:00 PM
The Latter Rain is a message (Light) that is given by the Holy Spirit that will ripen the harvest so that Jesus can return. The message emanates from the heavenly sanctuary where Jesus is our High Priest.<P>The message is the message for today. It is the third angel's message. It is the message of God's great love for us while we are yet sinners. The message is what was revealed in the Hebrew sanctuary services. It centers in the Lamb of God which was slain in our place.
Such a study! As we see more clearly, our hearts will open and allow Jesus full access. This is what we want! We see in Christ the solution for the "sin problem". It is by the revelation of this great love that the heart of man may be changed moment by moment, day by day. A simple, but deeply profound message from God to us. The "Latter Rain" is a great increase in this "light" attended by great power. :)
Post by: Harry Elliott on May 10, 2001, 07:00:00 PM
You have raised some thoughtful points.
It seems to me that human ingenuity could design an infinite number of scenarios that use some of the details of the Hebrew sanctuary while rejecting others. The ideal one would use all of the details. No one has ever done that, and I think you have correctly identified the reason.
So how do we evaluate the myriad of models that use only some of the details. We can shrug off the task and say I’ll just believe what the pioneers believed. But then we find that they didn’t all agree, and individual views were not static!
I have concluded that the only practical approach--for me--is to ask to what extent a particular scenario is CONSISTENT with scripture. And whether each feature of the scenario is REQUIRED by the scripture. This has proven to be a surprisingly straightforward and satisfying approach, because it simply identifies discrepancies and speculation as such and leaves it at that.
For instance, since Aaron cleansed the Most Holy Place and the Holy place in exactly the same way, to assume that Jesus to cleanses the Most Holy Place and not the Holy Place is a discrepancy. Why not assume that He cleanses the Holy Place and not the Most Holy Place. That’s just as consistent--and inconsistent.
Does he perform an investigative judgment on the antitypical Day of Atonement? Maybe so, but that’s speculation, isn’t it? I mean, the Bible doesn’t say that typical High Priest did that.
The other approach I’m using is to try to walk in our pioneers’ moccasins. That is, gather as many of their writings I can and follow their changing views, and the arguments they gave for the changes. I can hope that what convinced them will convince me, and I’ll know which of their scenarios to accept.
--Harry
Post by: Harry Elliott on May 10, 2001, 07:01:00 PM
For the reasons I mentioned to Liane, I have to ask, does the Bible actually say that the court represents the earth? Are we told that there is no courtyard and altar in the heavenly sanctuary?
And if we decide that Jesus wore special priestly garments because Aaron did, shouldn’t he put them on and take them off at the same points in the service that Aaron did?
Aaron wore the same vestments to cleanse the altar in the courtyard that he wore to cleanse each of the apartments of the tabernacle, didn’t he? Why assume that Jesus will take them off before cleansing the courtyard altar?
What does Aaron’s carrying the ashes from the courtyard signify? I agree with Liane that not everything in the service has an atitype. If the Bible doesn’t say what it signified, there’s no way to know. Does it say?
--Harry
Post by: Richard Myers on May 11, 2001, 07:04:00 AM
Let me ask you a simple question. Since we have such difficulty in understanding such simple things, do you suppose Jesus would send us some help, like maybe a prophet to give us some guidance? Yes, my brother He would and He did. Why are you so opposed to taking the light given and just say thank you, Jesus?
There is an investigative judgment going on today and it is clearly revealed in the Hebrew sanctuary and it is in harmony with the gospel as seen throughout the Bible. If we cannot agree that the courtyard represents the earth, how could we agree on anything else?
Post by: Harry Elliott on May 11, 2001, 09:46:00 PM
Since the title of this forum/section is the Bread of Life, I presume that it’s the Bible’s guidance we are focussing on here. In any event,EGW said we are not to use her writings as authority for the meaning of the Bible, didn’t she? Furthermore, our church declares adamantly that our sanctuay doctrine did not originate with her.
My objective is to see--and discuss--just what the Bible says about the sanctuary. Inevetably, that means acknowledging what it does NOT say. A surprising number of the details of our sanctuary tradition are not actually stated in the Bible.
--Harry
Post by: Liane H on May 12, 2001, 07:36:00 AM
Wishing you a blessed Sabbath this day and to all that may share in this topic. Your last post above regarding the Bread of Life.
This is going off the subject at hand, and I know has been addressed in other topics in the past of just what is the source of the Testimonies and do they have the same authority as the Bible.
Also, I am speaking for myself in my response to you. These are my convictions and may or may not represent others on this forum. We all come from different points in life and may be standing in different places in our relationship with our God. Therefore my responses are my own.
Matthew 26:26
"And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take eat: this is my body."
Very clearly here Jesus spoke of himself as the Bread of Life. The Bible are His Words to us unto salvation. So therefore, the title of this forum is regarding Jesus, and of his words to us from those sources that he has given us in the past.
And just as the Bible is the Word of God, Ellen G. White very clearly stated over and over again, that the words written in the Testimonies were not her words, but came from above. Her statement that the Testimonies are the lesser light to the greater light, no way implies that the authority of her writing was lesser, but that in the grand scheme of things, her writings were in fact pointing to the Bible.
Just as we find that the New Testament points most often to the Old Testament, the Spirit of Prophecy also points to the whole Bible.
We can find things in the New Testament that are not written in the Old Testament, does that diminish the Old Testament in the authority of God's Word? NO. So as there are understandings written in the Spirit of Prophecy, that are not in the Bible, does not diminish the Bible. Nor does it go the other way around, just because there are things in the new Testament that are not in the old, does not mean they did not come from God, just as there are in the Spirit of Prophecy things not written in the Bible.
This is a old soul here that has been blessed by the gift of the Spirit of Prophecy. I take in hand both the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy as the authority of my life in Jesus. Whatever tools the Lord has given me, I have been blessed by them.
I have learned that through these teachings of both the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy, health, joy, peace and love has been passed through me to be given unto the world that hungers for the righteosuness of the Son, but know it not.
I know for myself, the day that I thought I stumbled onto this church and its teachings was in actuality the guiding hand of my Lord. Now I can look back at my life and see the footsteps that has brought me to the place I now stand. I have been blessed and given much understanding from both the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy. I accept them both as the authority in my life.
Liane
Post by: Dugald T Lewis MD on May 12, 2001, 12:36:00 PM
Your statement; "I concluded that the KJV may be misleading when it says that the trespass offering is to be eaten by the priests in “the holy place”, since the KJV term for the second apartment is “the holy place”. My REB does a better job"
Woudl you be kind enough to explain this further? I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here.
Sincerely
Dugald
Post by: Clive Nevell on May 12, 2001, 01:36:00 PM
I am still learning but it has been a real blessing to me.
Clive
Post by: Richard Myers on May 12, 2001, 06:32:00 PM
Richard
Post by: DavidTBattler on May 13, 2001, 07:37:00 AM
"I consider the “real” Bible to be the thoughts that its writers were tryiing to convey to us. The original Hebrew and Greek came closest to those thoughts. Since most of us cannot read the original languages,we are dependent on translations.
I do not believe any translation is inspired. Some treat the KJV as inspired. I have no interest in persuading them otherwise. I believe this subject is thoroughly discussed in the SDA Bible Commentary."
Hello Harry
Thanks for your clarifications. Of course, it has generated more questions; but first, I need to ask:
Where in the SDA-BC could I find this discussion you are referring to? I would like to check it out. :)
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"Know the grace of God in Truth." (Col.1:6).
Your brother in Christ
David T. Battler
Post by: Allan F on May 13, 2001, 01:40:00 PM
Thank you for your postings. Concerning my four points from Acts ch. 3, it was not my intention to link them with the sanctuary service. My primary intention was to make a comparision between adventism and a common view among christians regarding important biblical events. Specially, I wanted to show that mans destiny and salvation is decided before the coming of Jesus, and not after his arrival which is tought in some of the christian churches. This biblical truth we may also learn from the order of the jewish feasts. The Day of Atonement came prior to the Feast of Tabernacles (symbolizes heaven, which is an anti type of the last and happiest event of the jewish year). I am sorry that I did not make my thoughts and intentions clearer.
Allan F
Post by: M.A. Crawford on May 14, 2001, 06:58:00 AM
1. "I consider the 'real' Bible to be the thoughts that its writers were trying to convey to us. The original Hebrew and Greek came closest to those thoughts. Since most of us cannot read the original languages, we are dependent on translations."
It is true that most of us cannot read the Bible in the original Hebrew and Greek languages, but the Seventh-day Adventist Church has outstanding Hebrew and Greek scholars WHO CAN. And they have provided us with what I believe to be--not necessarily perfect--but, highly competent and reliable expositions on the same of which I accept as faithful and in keeping with the original thoughts and intentions of the writers.
2. "I do not believe any translation is inspired. Some treat the KJV as inspired...."
It also appears to be true that there are, in some, various disagreements and discrepencies from Bible translation to Bible translation in certain words, phrases, and dates. But I very firmly believe that the GREAT PRINCIPLES OF SALVATION that are found in the King James Version ARE SUFFICIENT to provide us with ENOUGH that will lead to eternal life, IF one is willing to follow those principles.
The work of the salvation of souls IS GOD'S WORK and not man's. As a result, I cannot be convinced that God is so inept and/or absentminded that He would permit a "translation" of His Holy Word to thwart or interfere with that work.
M.A.
Post by: Harry Elliott on May 14, 2001, 09:35:00 AM
I stumbled upon this text as a result of this thread.
“And the remainder thereof shall Aaron and his sons eat: with unleavened bread shall it be EATEN in the HOLY PLACE: in the court of the tabernacle of the congregation they shall eat it.” (Lev 6:16, KJV)
“Holy place” is the KJV term for what we usually call the “Most Holy Place”. Since Richard was being strict with the wording, I was wondering if he understood this to mean that the leftovers from the offering were eaten in both the Most Holy Place and in the courtyard.
There’s a similar problem in the instructions for the Day of Atonement, regarding the first act of the High Priest :
“Thus shall Aaron come into the holy place: with a young bullock for a sin offering, and a ram for a burnt offering.”
Our pioneers seem to have overlooked these two animals altogether, in their construction of the antitype. But the words seem to say that the High Priest’s first entry into the Most Holy Place on the Day of Atonement was with the special burnt offering victims.
In any event, the match between the Hebrew service and our traditional concept of Jesus’ fulfillment of it doesn't appear as close as I used to think.
--Harry
Post by: Harry Elliott on May 14, 2001, 09:46:00 AM
What does the courtyard represent? If the Bible tells us the answer to that, I haven’t found it yet.
If the Bible doesn’t say, I’m content not to know.
What the Bible DOES tell us, is that the High Priest cleansed the courtyard altar the same way he cleansed the Most Holy Place, BEFORE he removed his linen vestment. That doesn’t match up well with the cleansing of the earth with fire a thousand years AFTER the antitypical Day of Atonement ends, does it?
--Harry
Post by: Harry Elliott on May 14, 2001, 10:06:00 AM
There’s certainly a wide spectrum within Adventism regarding the nature of Ellen White’s writings and their authority vis-a-vis the Scriptures. I think the best way to reduce the differences is for everyone (who cares) to become as familiar with the evidence as possible. This isn’t the thread for that discussion, but I think it’s been pretty well established that she borrowed the words of others quite extensively.
Suffice it to say, she stated somewhere that if God’s people had studied the Scriptures properly, their would have been no need for her ministry. Unfortunately, many have used her writings as a substitute for deep Bible study. I did so, myself, for scores of years.
I believe that studying the Bible independent of her writings does NOT diminish them. :)
--Harry
Post by: Harry Elliott on May 14, 2001, 10:18:00 AM
In answer to your question:
There is an excellent discussion of variant readings in Bible manuscripts, due to copiest’s errors etc., on pages 140-146 of Volume 5 of the SDA Bible Commentary.
Very enlightening.
--Harry
Post by: jherbertthompson on May 14, 2001, 10:22:00 AM
I do not really wish to confuse this issue. I need more time to think it over. However, in this past weeks SS Class, our teacher made the comparison that, all 'sacrifices' were 'burnt' AFTER they had died. The 'blood' being representative of the 'life' being 'poured out for the justification of the sinner'. I have no trouble with that. It was, however, suggested that the final demise of 'sinners' must preclude of any life 'left in them'. Does this make any sense to any one out there. And if so, would someone please explain?
This is surely 'wonderful new' that the 'Latter Rain' is poured out on God's people in such a way as to [prepare them for what is soon to come?] or, [present a group here on earth who will become the 'harvester's of the field'?]...or what?
Thanks to all for your time and considerate responses to my particularly simple questions.
Sincerely you brother in Christ.
Post by: Wendy on May 14, 2001, 04:10:00 PM
quote
-----------------------------------
It was, however, suggested that the final demise of 'sinners' must preclude of any life 'left in them'. Does this make any sense to any one out there. And if so, would someone please explain?
-----------------------------------
Are they suggesting that sinners are dead before they are burned or are they suggesting that all spiritual life has gone out of them before they are burned?
In either case the sacrifice of the animal doesn't represent the death of the sinner. The animals killed represented Jesus and His death on our behalf. Now the fat in the animal did represent sin generally and there was a part of the service during the Day of Atonement where the fat of the sin offering was burned on the alter Lev.16:25. This could be symbolic of the purification of the earth from sin by fire.
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WendyL ~ Maranatha!:)
Post by: Allan F on May 15, 2001, 04:05:00 AM
I have read through most of your postings on this thread in order for me to understand your view concerning "The Day of Atonement", its antitype and in what ways this relate to us.
So far I have found these words to be the most useful in describing your view:
"Does he [Jesus] perform an investigative judgment on the antitypical Day of Atonement? Maybe so, but that’s speculation, isn’t it? I mean, the Bible doesn’t say that typical High Priest did that."
I am sure you agree with me that all the main jewish feasts have an anti type in the christian era and that they teaches the main truths that God wanted the Jews to understand and also us as christians to understand. I beleive that it would be good for the discussion if you would explain your view about the Day of Atonement more completely to us (if you can). What main truths do you beleive that God wants to teach us through "The Day of Atonement" and its anti type?
Looking forward to your answer.
Allan F
Post by: Harry Elliott on May 17, 2001, 09:45:00 AM
For some time now, I’ve been trying to separate my theology into two categories:
1) What the Bible plainly says. And
2) Accumulated traditions about what the Bible means.
To my chagrin, I find that most of what I have learned--as a lifelong Adventist, by the way--falls into category 2.
Paul says that the law, which in his vocabulary included the sanctuary service, was a custodian for the Hebrew nation until the coming of the Promised Seed. I haven’t found any evidence in the Bible that the sanctuary service taught them much of anything. :)
As to the Day of Atonement, Lev 16 says that it was to cleanse the sanctuary of ALL of the sins and sinfulness it had accumulated by being physically located in their midst. So I guess that ‘s what I believe. I simply don’t find anywhere in the Bible where it says that sprinkling blood is a prophecy of investigative judgment. So I put that squarely in category 2.
--Harry
Post by: Richard Myers on May 17, 2001, 04:58:00 PM
Let me address your last post in which you said "I haven’t found any evidence in the Bible that the sanctuary service taught them much of anything." It is impossible for you to enlighten anyone here with your lack of understanding. I am sorry to be so blunt, but by your own admission you have not found any truth in the sanctuary service. Yet, it is the center of the Bible, the sacrificial system goes back to Adam then forward to the death of the "Lamb of God", Jesus Christ. The slaying of the animals was a shadow of the death of Christ for our sins. It is unmistakable in the Bible. Jesus took our sins upon Himself and then suffered the consequence, while we were yet sinners. This is the teaching in the Hebrew sanctuary.
You have made statements that could lead others to believe that the teachings in the church are based upon tradition rather than the Bible. This is not true. Please refrain from such remarks. We have allowed you to continue for awhile, but now with these statements becoming more bold, we cannot allow you to continue bringing reproach upon the truth.
Thank you for your understanding.
Post by: Liane H on May 17, 2001, 09:51:00 PM
One of the greatest gifts the church has been given is the Spirit of Prophecy. Without the Sanctuary Message there would have not been a SDA Church.
Ellen G. White stated that if the people had studied the scriptures as they should have there would not have been a need for the Spirit of Prophecy. But the people did NOT study as they should. God realizing that many would have been lost, called out a young girl to reveal His Character through the pen of inspiration. That on the day of judgement none could say that God did not do everything that could be done.
This is not to say that the Cross was not all that our Lord and Saviour did do was not enough, it most certainly was. It is not in the plan of salvation that I speak of, but in the manner in which the plan of salvation has been revealed to the world and what our God was doing about sin. The way to God is through the Sanctuary and we have been blessed with this precious knowledge and the understanding of salvation in a way that reaches beyond any other denominations.
Psalm 77:13
"Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary."
Everything that we have learned of salvation comes from the scriptures through the revelation of the Sanctuary since 1844.
Many denominations speak of salvation and the Cross, but have missed the mark where it truly has been revealed. The Sanctuary teaches us about the blood of Jesus. It was the blood going into the sanctuary on a daily bases due to our sins that required on the Day of Atonement with placing of the sins on the live goat to be taken out.
It is this live goat, which is represented as Satan and the end of the world that the sins will be placed on him. It is the revealing of what happened to this live goat on the day of atonement will happen again.
We must always remember the words spoken of by Ellen G. White concerning her writings. It was by scriptures that they learned of these precious truths. Only when after much study that an understanding was not clear that she would be brought into vision for the clarity of it. These visions would clear the minds of those in study and bring the light that was being missed, but it was the scriptures themselves that revealed the hidden gems.
I am always reminded whenever I read my Bible of the comma put in the wrong place by man, not by God, regarding the thief on the cross next to Jesus and what our Lord said to him. The words inspired by God to the writers are there in plain sight, but it is man who changes the meanings to fit their preconcieved ideas.
I grieve at the thought of how many people have been lost because they had been told of an eternal burning hell. Denied of the true character of God and His mercy.
I am also reminded that what I say and how I say it can have eternal effects on the lives of others. These people who read what I write are my responsibility. God will hold me in account for my actions or lack of for other souls. My God has made me realize this.
Liane
Post by: Liane H on May 19, 2001, 08:06:00 AM
It has always amazed me in reading the Word that we learn each time a new insight or revelation that God brings to our attention.
Sometimes He brings people into our lives that causes us to dig even deeper than we may have done before, for gems that we never would have seen or understood before.
This is what I have come to understand. This synopisis is the outgrowth of this study that we have been following for some time now in this topic of the Hebrew Sanctuary.
There are many steps the earthly High Priest had to do. Because he as such, as the rest of us are sinners need of a Saviour. Therefore there were procedures that the earthly High Priest had to follow in order to be able to be a representative of the children of Israel. These steps of washing, special garments to wear, of cleansing and atonement was only necessary for the earthly High Priest. For he had to be free from sin in order to be the role as the representative for the congregation. This process was the offering of the bullock which represented in the blood of Jesus.
In this process there is no counterpart for Jesus as the High Priest, but only as our Saviour is it revealed as the sin offering of the bullock for the sins of the earthly High Priest and his own household.
But in the similarities we see several significant works that took place on the Day of Atonement.
1. Both acted as the representatives of the people of their sins and the offering of the blood for the sins of the congregations. Just as the earthly High Priest acted as the representative of the Children of Israel, so Jesus acts as the representative of the whole world as the second Adam.
2. It is in verse 15 of Leviticus that Jesus as the High Priest and as the goat can be seen. Here Jesus not only has a counterpart as the High Priest, but as the sin offering. Both Jesus and the earthly representatives are doing the work of the blood for sin offering of the people. It is seen that Jesus has a duel role.
3. We also see the counterparts of both in the atonement (purging) of the sins of the cleansing of the Sanctuary starting with the Most Holy Place, the Holy Place and in the courtyard.
4. In verse 20 it is stated "And he hath made an end of the reconciling." It is noted here that Jesus has not left the Most Holy Place, so therefore the process of the Holy Place and the Courtyard has not been fulfilled.
The world has not yet come to its end.
5. But when it does, we will see Jesus come out of the Most Holy Place to finish the work of reconciliation by the offering of the blood in the Holy Place and the Altar in the courtyard.
6. When this has been done, Jesus as the High Priest will place his hands on the head of the live goat/Satan and confess the iniquites, all their transgressions in all the sins of the people. Just as the earthly High Preist did this with the live goat, so will Jesus do with Satan at the end of the earth.
7. Just as the live goat was sent into the wilderness to die, which more than likely took many days, so will Satan be sent to the abyss of the earth for a 1000 years awaiting for the time of his death. Who will be the fit man is my guess, Gabriel.
8. When we get to verse 23 and part of 24, then again there is no counterpart of the earthly High Priest with Jesus.
9. But I do see something in the end part of verse 24 and 25. But that is for futher study and will be brought forth sometime later this week.
In the big picture just as in the earthly daily, the sins of the people were brought into the Holy Place. Just as our sins have been brought into the heavenly Holy Place since the fall of Adam.
Just as on the Day of Atonement once a year the earthly High Priest brought the sin offering into the Most Holy Place, Jesus as our High Priest is now making atonement (purging) the sin offering for the sins of the people.
This is where we are at right now in the course of the heavenly work of Jesus. To go beyond this is to step into the future. A future work of Jesus yet to be completed in the work of the Sanctuary.
Liane
Post by: jherbertthompson on May 28, 2001, 03:43:00 PM
Allen: I'm not at all sure of your "comparision between adventism and a common view among christians" as you put it...maybe this could be linked to a newbys lack of understanding of the subject? At-any-rate, verses 19-21 seem to speak particularly to your "comparision(s)?"...
I think in a general sort of way, my question results from a limited understanding of the phrase, 'restitution of all things'. This restitution would consequentially, be accounted for in the 'Day of Atonement'...If so, how does the dual 'Atonement' of Christ at the cross; and, Christ ministering to us in the Holy of Holies, lend to this understanding?
Wendy: The illistration which was being made in the SS Class was this: It was not the 'sin offering' itself. The issue was in relation to Romans 1: 18-28...vs. 24,26,28 in particular. This of course is that God 'turned away' from the sinner...Because God is 'the sustainer of life', after 'life' has been extracted, than only what is left will be burnt...Doesn't make sense to me, and this teacher holds his ground regarding the issue without a real explination as to how he has come up against it...
I am at this point somewhat limited to my access to the internet, as my driver's license has been suspended due to my disability having no computer at home...
For this reason, I probably won't be back to the University until Wednesday...
Hope to hear from you by then...
Your brother in Christ...
Post by: Richard Myers on May 28, 2001, 06:54:00 PM
We will begin again with the simple slaying of a lamb and why God asked that it be done. It seems that some are confused.
Post by: Richard Myers on June 14, 2001, 09:05:00 PM
Ever since the fall men have disobeyed God. The Lord gave Cain and Abel directions regarding the sacrifice they were to bring Him. Abel, a keeper of sheep, obeyed the Lord's command, and brought a lamb as his offering. This lamb, as it was slain, represented the Lamb of God, who was to be slain for the sins of the world. Cain brought as an offering the fruit of the ground, his own produce. He was not willing to be dependent on Abel for an offering. He would not go to him for a lamb. He thought his own works perfect, and these he presented to God.
And do we not see the same today?
Richard
Post by: Richard Myers on June 16, 2001, 08:11:00 PM
Post by: jherbertthompson on June 18, 2001, 04:19:00 PM
It appears that Abel not only understood what was required in the sacrificial alter service. He also thoroughly understood the plan of salvation. Restoration and ultimate Atonement were, I believe also understood by those who faithfully served God...
How Adam and Eve must have suffered watching their children, grand children; generation after generation following self-will and arrogance against God's plan for redemption.
This leads to a question I have refered to in some of the other posts I've made in this forum. What was the problem with sin that the plan of salvation was devised to fix?
Sincerely your brother in Christ
Post by: Richard Myers on June 18, 2001, 10:16:00 PM
Richard
Post by: jherbertthompson on June 19, 2001, 04:09:00 PM
>>Adam and Eve and their children were told of the plan of salvation, they knew that the lamb represented Jesus...."and they knew [?] that Jesus could give them victory over sin."
<Stop> What Biblical proof can you give regarding the issue that they "knew" that Jesus could give them victory over sin? This is unfamiliar theology to me...My understanding of this issue is that they "knew" that He [Jesus] would ultimately "win" the conflict begun in the garden by satan and his deception...And, they "knew" that, as you said, the lamb represented Jesus...However, how would a "sinless live" be possible to them? Even living a "perfect" life following the fall, was not their "flesh" by way of "sin" mared, and therefore "not perfect"?
>>The plan of salvation promised a new nature in sinful flesh. It provided for a race of beings that would have a character more perfect [?] than Adam and Eve had before they fell.[?]
<Stop> How can this be? "More perfect" than what? Before they fell, on the creation eve of their creation, God had looked over His newly completed garden and pronounced it "Very, Very Good"!
Now, perhaps, is a good place to insert what has become a deeper and deeper question than I had first imagined when first hearing it myself...What was the problem with sin that the plan of salvation was designed to fix?
Additionally, which was more important to God: His Law? Or, His creation?
One more thought [in four parts] before closing in regard to the Hebrew Sanctuary, it's antitypical symbology, in particular which may discussed at more length: a) The Creator-God sat enthroned between the cherubim, symbolic of His actual reign and sovereignty over all the creation [Ex. 20:8-11]; b) The law spoke not only of moral intergrity and righteousness; it also gave the throne of God the attribute of justice; c) The Ark also reflected the divine attitude of grace; d) Finally, the attention of Israel was to be drawn to contemplate the mediatorial ministry of the priesthood. Throughout the year the priests had approached God on their behalf, mediating the shed blood of the sacrifices, and offering up fragrant incense on the golden alter. On the Day of Atonement the high priest stood within the very throne room of God, in the immediate presence of Diety, administering both incense and blood, thereby removing sin from the sanctuary and securing the approval of God for His people. IN this last instance, then, the ark became to them a throne of mediation, intercession, and salvation through a representative priest who could reconcile man to God...
The problem, however, was that Isreal [and perhaps Spiritual Israel?] never really "got it"...
Blessings from Him who is ABLE!
Your brother in Christ
Post by: Richard Myers on June 20, 2001, 05:18:00 PM
Here is your Bible support. Genesis 3:15, "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman..." But, my dear brother, throughout the Bible we find the same promise to us who are much worse than Eve. :)
My favorite is Ezekiel 36:26, 27. What do you think? :)
Richard
Post by: jherbertthompson on June 20, 2001, 05:40:00 PM
This "life" which they had was, at least as I have been thus far taught, a "probationary period" in which they, as are we all, given the chance to come to a decision on our own based upon fact and evidence...Reasoning by which they may "receive or reject" God's way of doing things...Freedom means giving the other person the right to say "yes or no"!
Here too brings up another thought. Is it enough to "know the truth"? Or, do we, or must we do "something" with the truth which has been given us? And, by reasoning, do we think it possible to come close to the "thoughts of God"?
And finally, I'll re-ask the question...Is hatred for sin enough? Do we not also need to act upon that hatered? Do we not need to reach beyond ourselves to something unknown, unseen, virtually unheard...grasping by "faith" what we cannot and will not grasp literally? I honestly see no "promise" of a "victorious life" in the scripture you have given...Maybe you would explain further?
Your brother in Christ.
Post by: Liane H on June 20, 2001, 06:19:00 PM
It is hard sometimes for me to take one set of words such as "victorious life," and apply it to other words that mean the same thing.
What I have found are two scriptures that appear to me to say the same as above.
Revelation 3:21
"To him that OVERCOMETH will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also OVERCAME, and am set down with my Father in his throne."
My view of this would be is that for one to overcometh, one would have the victorious life.
In Revelation 14:1-5
"And I looked and lo, a Lamb stood on mount Zion, and with him a hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Then in verse 4 and 5:
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whither soever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb.
And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
It appears from here that 144,000 will have had the victorous life, for they are found without fault.
I will keep looking and I am sure Richard would do far better than me.
Liane
[This message has been edited by liane (edited 06-20-2001).]
Post by: Richard Myers on June 20, 2001, 07:01:00 PM
We can look at 1 John 2:1 "My little chidren, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not."
Best of all we can listen to the Lord, Jesus Christ tell us what the requirements for salvation are: "And a certain ruler asked Him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit etenral life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother."
In the sermon on the mount Jesus said the same: "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Hope this helps a little. :)
Richard
Post by: Richard Myers on June 20, 2001, 08:03:00 PM
Now the idea of perfection in relationship to Adam and Eve takes on a new meaning. Can the fruits of the Spirit grow? Can they be more abudant? Yes. This ought to give some food for thought. :)
Richard
Post by: Ron Lambert on June 21, 2001, 02:06:00 PM
Some people claim that this vignette took place in the first apartment. They point out that Exodus 30:6 locates the altar of incense "before the veil that is before the ark of the Testimony" (NKJV), which would indicate that whatever in the Heavenly sanctuary corresponds to the altar of incense must likewise be in the Holy Place, and therefore is involved with Christ's ministry in the first compartment, and not His Final Atonement ministry in the second compartment.
But we must also consider the following Bible passage:
"A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand, the table and the consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant."—Heb. 9:2-4 (NIV)
This text says plainly that the golden altar of incense was in the second apartment with the Ark of the Covenant. How can both Exodus 30:6 and Hebrews 9:4 be true?
Paul, whom we assume wrote Hebrews, knew full well exactly how the furniture of the sanctuary was arranged. It is likely He was taking due note of the way the Ark of the Covenant and the golden altar of incense were originally set up together, as we read in Exodus 40:5: "You shall also set the altar of gold for the incense before the ark of the Testimony" (NKJV). This indicates that the two were associated together at the beginning. The last part of the verse indicates that a screen was set up between them AFTERWARD.
In verse 26, we are told that after the permanent veil was set up to hide the Ark from view, Moses located the golden altar of incense outside of the veil. As long as the veil existed, it served as a boundary that located the altar in the first compartment. The veil was necessary because no sinner, including the earthly high priest who was still sinful, could approach the visible presence of God and live. The prayers of sinners cannot be presented to God without the intercession of the True High Priest, and without the incense which represented Christ's imputed righteousness.
But even then, despite the veil, the golden altar was still "before the Ark," because it was the closest item of furniture to it. In Leviticus 16:18 the altar is said to be "before the Lord".
The golden altar of incense was involved in the yearly Day of Atonement ministry of the high priest, for on that day the priest applied blood to the horns of this altar, as well as to the horns of the Ark (see Lev. 16:18). And without the cloud of incense from the altar passing over the top of the veil and filling the Most Holy Place, the high priest could not enter the Most Holy Place and live, if the Shekinah glory of God should be manifested upon the Mercy Seat.
When Jesus died on the Cross, "the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom." (Mark 15:38) We must recall that the earthly was designed by God to be a shadow of the Heavenly. So this tearing in two of the veil on earth must signify something similar happening in the sanctuary in Heaven. Indeed, at the same time the veil was rent in two on earth, the veil separating the Holy from the Most Holy Place (or whatever in the Heavenly sanctuary corresponds to the veil) was removed, as the following passage indicates:
"But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been DISCLOSED as long as the first tabernacle was still standing." —Heb. 9:7 (NIV; emphasis supplied)
Although the earthly sanctuary was not destroyed until 70 A.D., in the sight of God, when the veil was rent in twain at Christ's death, the earthly sanctuary ceased to stand. After that, the golden altar of incense in the Heavenly sanctuary appeared directly before the Ark of the Covenant where God's throne is, without a screen or veil in between. Now humanity has a High Priest who is sinless, and can enter into the visible presence of God and live.
The golden altar of incense is involved in Jesus' Final Atonement ministry. Jesus must present the prayers of His people who are seeking to receive the blotting out of sins, mingled with the merit of His own righteousness. This is the purpose of His Final Atonement ministry, and it cannot be accomplished without the altar of incense and what it represents.
Ron Lambert
[This message has been edited by Ron Lambert (edited 06-21-2001).]
Post by: Richard Myers on June 21, 2001, 03:49:00 PM
I have some questions similar to yours, but I am not sure that I see some of the verses you have presented in the same light. We shall get to them, but first I would like to better understand where you want to go with this. You say "This is the purpose of His Final Atonement ministry, and it cannot be accomplished without the altar of incense and what it represents."
Could you explain in some detail what you mean? :)
Thanks, Richard
Post by: jherbertthompson on June 21, 2001, 05:04:00 PM
Exodus and Hebrews...On closer look, you will find that in the Exodus 30 account; the Alter of Incense was to be placed "in front of the veil, behind the Mercy Seat"...this would place the Alter exactly where Paul places it in Hebrews 9.
The New Interpreter's Bible Comentary [1998];
regarding Hebrews 9:4, interprets: "the Golden Alter of Incense [v.4]" traditionally "placed to the rear of the Holy Place near the curtain..."
Patriarchs and Prophets, page 353 says this: "In the offering of incense the priest was brought more directly into the presence of God than in any other act of the daily ministration. As the inner veil of the sanctuary did not extend to the top of the building, the Glory of God, which was manifested above the Mercy Seat, was partially visible from the first apartment."
There is still more at the end of the above paragraph, and the beginning of the next...I think they may even more fully expound on the
matter even more.
It is also interesting to note that there is also a similarity in Christ as the High Priest first going from the Holy Place into the Most Holy Place carring the Censure of incense...Then as the Book of Life is closed, and He [Jesus] leaves the Mercy Seat forever, He throws down the Censure and declares those final words; "he that is holy, let him be holy still..."
Maybe someone else could pick this up, I find it an interesting question.
Ya'll have a great weekend...I probably won't be back until Sunday at the earliest, so a Happy Sabbath to all!
Your brother in Christ.
Post by: Richard Myers on June 21, 2001, 05:28:00 PM
Richard
Post by: Ron Lambert on June 22, 2001, 05:40:00 PM
Following are a few statements from Ellen G. White that show how she discussed these things, so at least you will be able to see that I am not making up something new. After that, I will establish these same essential points and develop them a little further from Scripture alone.
"The incense, ascending with the prayers of Israel, represents the merits and intercession of Christ, His perfect righteousness, which through faith is imputed to His people, and which can alone make the worship of sinful beings acceptable to God. Before the veil of the most holy place was an altar of perpetual intercession, before the holy, an altar of continual atonement. By blood and by incense God was to be approached--symbols pointing to the great Mediator, through whom sinners may approach Jehovah, and through whom alone mercy and salvation can be granted to the repentant, believing soul." (Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 353)
"We are now living in the great day of atonement. In the typical service, while the high priest was making the atonement for Israel, all were required to afflict their souls by repentance of sin and humiliation before the Lord, lest they be cut off from among the people. In like manner, all who would have their names retained in the book of life should now, in the few remaining days of their probation, afflict their souls before God by sorrow for sin and true repentance. There must be deep, faithful searching of heart." (The Great Controversy, p. 489)
"The work of the investigative judgment and the blotting out of sins is to be accomplished before the second advent of the Lord. Since the dead are to be judged out of the things written in the books, it is impossible that the sins of men should be blotted out until after the judgment at which their cases are to be investigated. But the apostle Peter distinctly states that the sins of believers will be blotted out 'when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; and He shall send Jesus Christ.' Acts 3:19, 20." (The Great Controversy, p. 485)
___________________________________
The above makes it clear that the incense represents the righteousness of Christ that must be mingled with all our prayers, for them to be acceptable to God. Additionally, there is a special work of prayer on the part of God's people, called for on the Day of Atonement. We must make sure that all our sins are confessed and go beforehand to judgment, so we can be beneficiaries of the "blotting out of sins." I will also touch on what that signifies.
We begin in Scripture with the type:
"For on that day the priest shall make atonement for you, to cleanse you, that you may be clean from all your sins before the Lord….then he shall make atonement for the Holy Sanctuary, and he shall make atonement for the tabernacle of meeting and for the altar, and he shall make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly." Leviticus 16:30, 33 (NKJV)
Notice that this Day of Atonement was to be for the purpose not only of cleansing the sanctuary, but for the purpose of cleansing the people. The object of this cleansing was to make the people clean from all their sins before the Lord. In other words, their sins were to be blotted out. (See Isaiah 44:22)
The following text tells us that the people had a role to play in the Day of Atonement Service. They were to participate by resting from their works, and by afflicting their souls—meaning they were to search their hearts and make sure that every sin was confessed:
"And you shall do no work on that same day, for it is the Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the Lord your God. For any person who is not afflicted in soul on that same day shall be cut off from his people." Leviticus 23:28, 29 (NKJV)
The prayers of the people to rid themselves of anything sinful separating them from God, must be mingled with the incense of Christ's righteousness in order for them to be presentable before God. So closely is the righteousness of Christ identified with the prayers of His people, that in Revelation 5:8 we read of "…golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." (NKJV)
Daniel 8:14 gives us the time prophecy which tells us when the time for the beginning of the Antitypical Day of Atonement came, and it also tells us that there is a sanctuary cleansing that will be involved.
"And he said to me, 'For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed.'" Daniel 8:14 (NKJV)
In the New Testament, on the Day of Pentecost, Peter looked forward to a future blotting out of sins:
"Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before" Acts 3:19, 20 (NKJV)
Note that this blotting out of sins is associated with "times of refreshing…from the presence of the Lord." Scripture tells us that just as the baptism of the Spirit that came upon the disciples at the time of Pentecost was the "former rain," so also there will be a "latter rain" outpouring of the Holy Spirit (see Joel 2:23).
What consequence might there be for the people of God as they receive the final atonement with its blotting out of sins? What special benefit might the latter rain outpouring of the Holy Spirit confer? In ancient Israel, the effect of the "latter rain" was to ripen the crops for the harvest. So also spiritually, the purpose of the latter rain outpouring of the Holy Spirit must be to bring His people to the point where they are ready for the Lord to come.
Now, what might be the nature of the work that the Holy Spirit will do for God's people when they receive the Latter Rain?
When Christians first come to Christ and begin their Christian walk, they receive a kind of "seal" that is administered by the Holy Spirit:
"…do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." Ephesians 4:30 (NKJB)
But Scripture also tells us about a special end-time seal of God that the people of God will receive, as they prove faithful in the test over the mark of the beast (see Revelation 7:2-4). It seems reasonable to conclude that the seal of Ephesians 4:30 is the seal of the former rain ministration of the Holy Spirit, and the seal of Revelation 7:2-4 is the seal of the latter rain ministration of the Holy Spirit.
What are the effects that this might have on the people of God? What changes might it produce in them? A hint is given in Hebrews:
"For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. " Hebrews 10:1, 2 (NKJV)
This suggests that when the believers receive the cleansing and blotting out of sins typified by the yearly Day of Atonement service, there is a change in their consciousness of sins. Let us consider the new covenant promise in its fullness:
"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more. " Hebrews 8:10-12 (NKJV)
What will it mean for this gospel promise of the covenant to be received in its final fullness? Notice the last clause. If God forgets our sins, then can we still remember them?
We also have the promise that Jesus will purge and purify His people:
"But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire And like launderer's soap. He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the Lord An offering in righteousness." Malachi 3:2, 3 (NKJV)
Now, this does not mean that God's people will be given sinless natures at this time. Scripture plainly tells us that our bodies are not changed until the Second Coming (see 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Nor does it necessarily mean that God's people will have amnesia, when they receive the blotting out of sins, they have no more consciousness of sins, and God remembers their sins no more.
Rather, it is the essence of sin itself, the attitude of unbelief toward God, that will be removed, as the people of God become fully and completely converted. While sin leads to transgression of the law, by which sin can be outwardly identified, the inward nature of sin is lack of faith. Thus we have Paul's definition of sin:
"…whatever is not from faith is sin." Romans 14:23 (last part; NKJV)
Paul also said that unbelief was the reason why ancient Israel failed to enter into the covenant promises:
"Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief….Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." Hebrews 4: 6, 11 (KJV)
In the above, the Greek word apeitheia, translated "unbelief" in the KJV and as "disobedience" in other versions, refers to an attitude of the heart, as is apparent when we consult Thayer's Bible Dictionary:
543 apeitheia {ap-i'-thi-ah}
from 545; TDNT - 6:11,818; n f
AV - unbelief 4, disobedient 3; 7
1) obstinacy, obstinate opposition to the divine will
It is unbelief, or lack of faith, that leads to disobedience.
Jesus expressed what His real concern would be when He returns to receive His people. He did not say He would be concerned whether He would find people who were perfect in every respect. Rather, He asked:
"… when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:8 (NKJV)
Our problem presently is that we are not fully converted. Our faith is not perfect. Our hearts are still divided between belief and unbelief. Thus the Psalmist prayed:
"Teach me Your way, O Lord; I will walk in Your truth; Unite my heart to fear Your name." Psalms 86:11 (NKJV)
This is what we need. For our hearts to be united, so that we are whole-hearted, and our faith is untainted by distrust of God. If we have such faith, then we will truly be satisfying the righteous requirement of God. The Law of God is summarized thusly:
"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength." Deuteronomy 6:5 (NKJV)
When the angels and intelligent beings on other worlds see that we former rebels on earth have become true patriots, then they will welcome us into the kingdom of Heaven, confident of our fitness.
The conclusion of these things is simply this: the purpose of Jesus' second apartment, Day of Atonement ministry in the sanctuary in Heaven, is to perfect the faith of His people. In this work, we must cooperate, actively seeking to rid our hearts and lives of every taint of sinful unbelief toward God, cherishing no sinful practice, and refusing no reform He asks of us as His Spirit leads us to discover all the things that may be in the way, hindering our relationship with Him. Like ancient Israel on the Day of Atonement, we must afflict our souls as our High Priest ministers for us. Our earnest prayers must ascend, mingled with the incense of the righteousness of Christ, as He goes about finishing the work in us.
Ron Lambert
Post by: Richard Myers on June 22, 2001, 09:06:00 PM
Brother Ron, I am going to start with your last post first and then we can go back to the one before. :) Thank you for taking the time to give us the overview. I began to make note of the difference in translations, but it is not important at this point. I appreciate much of what you have shared and agree with most of it. It is very profound as we see what God will do for His people.
There is a teaching within the church today that puts into the future the need to obey the law of God. The teaching states that prior to this "last generation" the 144,000, Christians do not need to have a pure heart. This is to say they still have "unbelief" buried in the soul. Ty Gibson put it this way. The Christian prior to the "last generation" still has pride in his heart he does not know about. It is the final generation that will be clean.
It appears that this is what you are saying. If I am wrong, please correct me.
Post by: Ron Lambert on June 23, 2001, 11:41:00 AM
There is absolutely nothing preventing any of us now from walking with God as did Enoch, or from being whole-heartedly faithful as was Elijah. But most of us, as a community of believers, do have the problem of incomplete conversion, and lack of whole-hearted faith. We still need to have God "unite" our "heart," as the Psalmist prayed in Psalms 86:11, 12.
Were Paul, or Peter, or James, or the other apostles alive today, I believe they would probably be fully ready to receive the special end-time seal of God.
In other words, the experience of having perfect faith is not something that cannot be obtained prior to the Latter Rain outpouring of the Holy Spirit, which brings to us the benefits of the blotting out of sins.
However, Jesus is now working to perfect the faith of a whole community of believers. The time of the firstfruits is passed. He is looking toward the final harvest. When Jesus has a whole community of believers who are fully converted, whose hearts are united in faith in Him, then the sealing angel can come and do his work, putting the seal of God on the final generation who will be God's faithful witnesses during the final conflict. The blotting out of sins and the Latter Rain outpouring of the Holy Spirit cannot come before this, even though individuals may be ready.
Having sinful bodies is not the problem. Otherwise sin would be God's fault, for not transforming our bodies now.
Nor is it right to say that God's people cannot gain the victory over unbelief until the blotting out of sins has taken place, for that would again imply that unbelief (which is the real essence of sin), is God's fault, because we cannot help but doubt until He gives us something He is withholding now.
We can become fully converted now. The work of sanctification, which is really the work of growing in faith until we are whole-hearted and single-minded in our faith in God, can be completed now.
Bible prophecy indicates that a whole community will not reach the point where their faith is perfected, until the time of the blotting out of sins, and they receive the Latter Rain outpouring of the Spirit (which is given to ripen the grain for the harvest). Prophecy indicates this, because this is the way it will happen, and God knows in advance that it will be so. He knows it will take the special benefit of the Latter Rain to bring this experience to an entire community.
What we need to do is prepare for the sealing, by asking the Lord to continue our conversion. This will require our intelligent and deliberate consent, as we make choices to let go of things that come between the Lord and us. But the transforming power that kindles faith in our hearts is God's.
Ron Lambert
Post by: Richard Myers on June 24, 2001, 03:08:00 AM
outpouring of the Holy Spirit cannot come before this, even though individuals may be ready."
I have never understood that the Latter Rain had to wait until all of God's people were converted. I understand the Latter Rain to be the agent through which many conversions will take place. Also, I understand the Latter Rain began to fall in the past, so would this not would prove that your statement is incorrect?
More importantly I disagree with what I think you are saying about conversion. Let me ask a question to get a better picture. You say "we cannot help but doubt until He gives us something He is withholding now." My brother where do read in the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy that God withholds something we need to keep from doubting Him? Also, it appears that you will give salvation to those that are not "fully converted." You say there is a "problem of incomplete conversion" and "We can become fully converted now. The work of sanctification, which is really the work of growing in faith until we are whole-hearted
and single-minded in our faith in God, can be completed now." It seems as if you allow for a class that are somewhat "converted" that are not whole-hearted Christians. Will you give this class who have not fully surrendered to Jesus, who still have "unbelief" and pride in their heart, eternal life?
I may be misunderstanding what you are saying, but if you could clarify my concerns if I am wrong it will be much appeciated. :)
Richard
Post by: Ron Lambert on June 24, 2001, 09:47:00 AM
I know, various people at various times have made claims that the Latter Rain was falling. No, that was still part of the Former Rain. The Latter Rain is a special benefit that comes from the Blotting Out of Sins during the Judgment of the Living. When the Latter Rain comes, it will be whole orders of magnitude beyond anything we have experienced thus far.
Let me share one of my favorite texts about how God's people will be when they receive the Latter Rain. It is found in Zechariah 12:8: "In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them." (NKJV) This says to me that when the Latter Rain comes, those among us who are shy and timid will become as bold as David, and those who are already bold by nature will become like the Angel of the Lord. That is an encouragement to anyone, I think, who feels they would never have the nerve to stand boldly for truth against great opposition during the final conflict.
I would say that virtually all of us right now are only partially converted. The process of conversion does not take place in a moment, when we first come to the Cross. The process of continuing, ever-deepening conversion is in fact the whole experience of sanctification. This is what sanctification is, becoming more thoroughly converted. God is willing to make every change needed in us, but He requires our informed consent at every step along the way, because love cannot be forced, and for this reason He will not violate our freedom of choice.
The whole problem of the people of Laodicea is not perceiving that they are still not fully converted. That is our problem. We think we are spiritually rich and increased with goods, we think we are very sanctified. But we fail to realize how we have been keeping the gospel principles in the "outer court" of our hearts, and we have not yet acquired the genuine, whole-hearted faith and love (represented by the gold) that we need to have.
Ron Lambert
Post by: Allan F on June 24, 2001, 12:01:00 PM
I appreciate your postings. Much of what you are saying I agree with, but sometimes I don't understand what you mean. One example is about 'conversion'.
When you mentioned that you beleive that christians are only partially converted, and that sanctification is a process where we are to become more and more converted, what do you mean?
By your use of the term 'conversion' do you mean that a lack of full conversion is manifested by a lack of obedience to the commandments of God? If this is your view, how will you explain these statements from SOP:
What is sanctification? It is to give one's self wholly and without reserve - soul, body, and spirit - to God; to deal justly; to love mercy, and walk humbly with God; to know and to do the will of God without regard to self or self-interest; to be heavenly-minded, pure, unselfish, holy, and without spot or stain (OHC 212).
True sanctification is nothing more or less than to love God with all the heart, to walk in His commandments and ordinances blameless (FW 87).
Looking forward to your answer.
Allan F
Post by: Ron Lambert on June 24, 2001, 06:15:00 PM
"True conversion, true sanctification, will be the cause of the change in our views and our feelings toward one another and toward God....We must increase in faith." — Manuscript Releases Volume Four, page 348, paragraph 2.
Notice how in the above, Ellen G. White equates sanctification with conversion, and ties it in with the idea that our faith must increase. Now, if she says our faith must increase, then that must mean we still have some unbelief. And since "whatsover is not of faith is sin," (Romans 14:23) then she is implying that we still have sin in our hearts, since she says our faith must increase.
Now consider these next three SOP statements, remembering that Ellen G. White equated sanctification with conversion:
"Let us be growing Christians. We are not to stand still. We are to be in advance today of what we were yesterday; every day learning to be more trustful, more fully relying upon Jesus. Thus we are to grow up. You do not at one bound reach perfection; sanctification is the work of a lifetime." — Selected Messages Book 3, page 193, paragraph 1.
"Our sanctification is God's object in all His dealing with us." — Selected Messages Book 3, page 202, paragraph 2.
"Sanctification is not a work of a day or a year, but of a lifetime. Without continual efforts and constant activity, there can be no advancement in the divine life, no attainment of the victor's crown. We are doing up work for the judgment, and it is unsafe to work in our own wisdom and trust to our own judgment." — Testimonies for the Church Volume Three, page 325, paragraph 2.
Now here are some SOP statements where Ellen G. White explicitly is talking about our continuing need for conversion:
"As a people we are to be reconverted, our lives sanctified to declare the truth as it is in Jesus." — Testimonies for the Church Volume Nine, page 63, paragraph 1.
"We need now to be reconverted, that angels of God may cooperate with us, making a sacred impression upon the minds of those for whom we labor." — Selected Messages Book 1, page 167, paragraph 4.
"There is no such thing as an instantaneous sanctification. It is an every-day work. Says Paul, 'I die daily' (1 Cor. 15:31). He received a CONVERSION DAILY to God. As the truth and Spirit of God revealed to him the defects in his character, he put away his wrong, died to self, and cleansed himself 'from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God' (2 Cor. 7:1)." — The Upward Look, page 231, paragraph 3 (caps supplied for emphasis).
The following statement refers to what Jesus can do when He has a community of people who are fully consecrated:
"Why, the Lord can do more in one hour than we can do in a whole lifetime, and when He sees that His people are fully consecrated, let me tell you, a great work will be done in a short time, and the message of truth is to be carried into the dark places of the earth, where it has never been proclaimed." — Manuscript Releases Volume Five, pages 347-8.
Ron Lambert
Post by: Dugald T Lewis MD on June 25, 2001, 05:07:00 PM
You have raised some very important points, some of which are a little confusing to me.
Can you explain to me your beliefs about the about the concept of primitive godliness? When does it begin? What are the qualifying marks?
Sincerely
Dugald
Post by: Ron Lambert on June 25, 2001, 06:46:00 PM
"It is only as the law of God is restored to its rightful position that there can be a revival of primitive faith and godliness among His professed people. 'Thus saith the Lord, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls.' Jeremiah 6:16." — The Great Controversy, page 478, paragraph 3.
Notice in the above Ellen G. White refers to "primitive faith and godliness."
Here is another passage:
"Notwithstanding the widespread declension of faith and piety, there are true followers of Christ in these churches. Before the final visitation of God's judgments upon the earth there will be among the people of the Lord such a revival of primitive godliness as has not been witnessed since apostolic times. The Spirit and power of God will be poured out upon His children. At that time many will separate themselves from those churches in which the love of this world has supplanted love for God and His word. Many, both of ministers and people, will gladly accept those great truths which God has caused to be proclaimed at this time to prepare a people for the Lord's second coming." — The Great Controversy, page 464, paragraph 1.
Notice here how Ellen G. White associates this time of revival of primitive godliness with the Spirit and Power of God being poured out, an obvious reference to the Latter Rain. It is also interesting that in the first quote, Ellen G. White said that this true spiritual revival cannot come about until the Law of God is restored to its rightful position.
Basically, the terms "primitive godliness" "reconversion" "entire consecration" and the like are all talking about the same thing. Whole-hearted faith, where our heart is undivided and we have fully turned from unbelief to faith in God. This requires a work of advancing conversion, until our conversion is complete.
Ron Lambert
Post by: Allan F on June 26, 2001, 01:32:00 PM
I fully agree with you in that our faith should increase continually. Active faith is important in the establishing, in the maintaining and for the growth of the christian life.
But what you say here, I don't fully agree with: "Now, if she says our faith must increase, then that must mean we still have some unbelief. And since "whatsoever is not of faith is sin," (Romans 14:23) then she is implying that we still have sin in our hearts, since she says our faith must increase."
I will try to explain why I see it differently by using two quotes from Ellen G. White.
A good illustration of sanctification is the parable of the seed. It says that there is "first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear". How shall we understand this parable about christian growth?
Since we are in the sanctuary thread, I want to remind us of the 7-branched candle stick of gold in the holy place. On it, was written the same parable as Jesus taught, just with a different plant. The almond plant.
While the laver in the courtyard symbolizes cleansing from sin, the candle stick symbolizes the christian life as a growing process.
Let us look how the SOP understood this parable: "He who gave this parable created the tiny seed, gave it its vital properties, and ordained the laws that govern its growth. And the truths which the parable teaches were made a living reality in His own life. In both His physical and His spiritual nature He followed the divine order of growth illustrated by the plant, as He wishes all youth to do. Although He was the Majesty of heaven, The King of glory, He became a babe in Bethlehem, and for a time represented the helpless infant in its mother's care. In childhood He did the works of an obedient child. He spoke and acted with the wisdom of a child and not of a man, honouring His parents and carrying out their wishes in helpful ways, according to the ability of a child. But at every stage of his development He was perfect, with the simple natural grace of a sinless life."
"The germination of the seed represents the beginning of the spiritual life, and the development of the plant is a beautiful figure of christian growth. As in nature, so in grace; there can be no life without growth. The plant must either grow or die. As its growth is silent and imperceptible, but continous, so is the development of the Christian life. At every stage of development our life may be perfect; yet if God's purpose for us is fulfilled, there will be continual advancement. Sanctification is the work of a lifetime. As our opportunities multiply, our experience will enlarge, and our knowledge increase. We shall become strong to bear responsibility, and our maturity will be in proportion to our privileges" (COL 62, 63, 82).
In connection with these two statements, let us look again to see what sanctification really is:
"Sanctification is a state of holiness, without and within, being holy and without reserve the Lord's, not in form, but in truth. Every impurity of thought, every lustful passion, seperates the soul from God; for he can never put his robe of righteousness upon a sinner, to hide his deformity" (OHC 214).
"Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. We know not one day how strong will be our conflict the next. So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point we can reach and say. I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience" (AA 560, 561).
Sincerely
Allan F
Post by: Richard Myers on July 01, 2001, 11:45:00 AM
While we are awaiting Brother Ron's reply, let us look at the laver that was in the outer court for a minute. The priests were to wash in the laver prior to entering the Holy Place or before ministering at the altar in the courtyard. Exodus 40:11,12. "And thou shalt anoint the laver and his foot, and sanctify it. And thou shalt bring Aaron and his sons unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and wash them with water."
"The glory of God hallowed the sanctuary, and for this reason the priests never entered the place sanctified by God's presence with shoes upon their feet. Particles of dust might cleave to them, which would desecrate the holy place; therefore the priests were required to leave their shoes in the court before entering the sanctuary. In the court, beside the door of the tabernacle, stood a brazen laver, wherein the priests washed their hands and their feet before entering the tabernacle, that all impurity might be removed. All who officiated in the sanctuary were required of God to make special preparation before entering the place where His glory was revealed."
"Here was the commandment of the great and mighty God. There was to be nothing slack and untidy about those who appeared before him, when they should come into his holy presence. And what was this for? What was the object of all this carefulness? Was it merely to recommend the people to God? Was it merely to gain his approbation? The reason that was given me was this: that a right impression might be made upon the people. If those who ministered in the sacred office should fail to manifest care and reverence for God in their apparel and their deportment, the people would lose their awe and reverence for God and his sacred service. If the priests showed great reverence for God, by being very careful and very particular as they came into his presence, it gave the people an exalted idea of God and his requirements. It showed them that God was holy, that his work was sacred, and that everything in connection with the work of God must be holy; that it must be free from everything like impurity and uncleanliness; and that all defilement must be put away from those that approach nigh to God. From the light that has been given me, there has been a carelessness in this respect. I might speak of it, as Paul presents it. It is carried out in will-worship and neglecting of the body. But this voluntary humility, this will-worship and neglecting of the body, is not the humility that savors of Heaven. That humility that savors of Heaven will be particular to have the person, and actions, and apparel, of all who preach the holy truth of God, right, and perfectly proper, so that every item connected with us will recommend our holy religion. The very dress will be a recommendation of the truth to unbelievers. It will be a sermon in itself."
"The Lord demands uprightness in the smallest as well as the largest matters. Those who are accepted at last as members of the heavenly court, will be men and women who here on earth have sought to carry out the Lord's will in every particular, who had sought to put the impress of heaven upon their earthly labors. In order that the earthly tabernacle might represent the heavenly, it must be perfect in all its parts, and it must be in the smallest detail like the pattern in the heavens. So it is with the characters of those who are finally accepted in the sight of heaven."
Jesus wants not only the hearts of the ministers to be pure, but ours also. We have been promised a "new heart". :) See Eze. 33: 26.
Richard
Post by: Gary K on July 08, 2001, 03:35:00 PM
Post by: theo on July 08, 2001, 08:38:00 PM
I have recently read two books that may be of help to you and your friend. The first is called "the Sanctuary Service" by M.L.Andreasen. It is copyrighted first in 1937, so it is a fairly old book. The other is a recent book by Roy Gane, a Prof. at Andrews. It is called "Alter Call". This book is geared up I think more toward people who don't have a background in Adventism. This book would be a good introduction to the sanctuary doctrine.
They are both available at your local ABC. If you have difficulty getting them, E-mail me at theoc@gorge.net and I will send them to you.
Hope this helps.
Post by: Gary K on July 09, 2001, 10:23:00 AM
Has anyone here read the book "Path to the Throne of God" by Sarah Peck? I have seen it recommended as a very good study on the Sanctuary also, but know nothing about it.
Post by: Allan F on July 09, 2001, 01:14:00 PM
I am glad to see that you want to do a study in the sanctuary with this person.
I will highly recommend the book written by Sarah Peck. It is considered to be one of the best books dealing with the sanctuary topic. I also know the book of M.L Andreasen, but I prefer the first one. It is quite systematic in structure, but interesting, even though it is an old book. There are pictures/drawings of the different furnitures, except for an overview of the whole sanctuary, which I miss.
I am not sure where to buy this book. Maybe someone can help you.
May God bless your study :)
Allan F
Post by: Gary K on July 09, 2001, 02:42:00 PM
Thanks for the info. I know where I can buy it. I found it for sale this morning on a tagnet site.
Post by: Richard Myers on July 09, 2001, 03:04:00 PM
So many teach things that God never said that the mind is confused and truth is shut out many times because it disagrees with what man has said. I have found this to be particularly true of the Hebrew sanctuary. Few have not mingled in much error.
Post by: jherbertthompson on July 22, 2001, 02:56:00 PM
On the Day of Atonement, after the High Priest had officiated the offering for himself and, the congregation of the people; he then went into the Holy Place with a censor, which, was to [as I understand it] sort of place a cloud between the vail. Now, Dr. Andreasen suggests that the vail between the Holy and Holy of Holies was later in the service of the cleansing, parted for activity in both the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place...Does anyone have a take on this?
Post by: Richard Myers on July 23, 2001, 09:38:00 AM
I think that if we follow the light we have from the inspired record we shall find an answer to the most important question that we must ask. "What must I do to be saved?" When we have come into unity on the foundation of the gospel, then it will enable us to build upon that foundation to better understand the work of our high priest in the Most Holy Place during he Day of Atonement.
As I understand the censor, it was to allow for the incense to be burned. The incense is sybolic of the righteousness of Christ which ascends to our heavenly Father with our prayers. The incense is in this sense is a Shield, a Rock, a Fortress that we may find protection in. The rightesouness of Christ is our everything. It is this that is imputed and imparted to the believing soul that surrenders all to Christ. Quite a study. :)
While there is much wisdom in the writing's of man, there is much error mingled in with the truth. In the study of the Hebrew Sanctuary it would be good to refrain from the writings of men until a thorough study has been made of the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy. It will prove to be a great blessing. Just a suggestion. :)
Richard
Post by: jherbertthompson on July 23, 2001, 04:59:00 PM
To be honest, I find nothing in either the Bible, or SOP which would affirm or deny this thought...Perhaps you have another consideration you could share?
Your brother in Christ.
Post by: jherbertthompson on July 23, 2001, 05:01:00 PM
Revelation 4:5; 8:3; 11:19; and SR 377.1.
Thank you for your comments.
Again, your brother in Christ.
Post by: Allan F on July 31, 2001, 04:59:00 AM
I would like to begin a study of the sanctuary and compare and decode its message with the two other great revelations of God, Jesus Christ and the Bible. I am sure that many of you have knowledge in this topic and have received blessings from studying it.
If it is ok I would like to go through the sanctuary and stop at every of the seven main furnitures that we find in the courtyard, the holy and most holy place.
In our attempts to understand the meanings of the symbols, let us look for answers in God's revelation through Jesus Christ, The Bible and the nature.
If there are no comments to this, I will soon go on and post my next post on this topic.
"Jesus said unto him, I am the way, the truth and the life. No man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)
"Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?" (Psalm 77:13)
Allan F
Post by: Richard Myers on July 31, 2001, 02:31:00 PM
Richard
Post by: jherbertthompson on August 01, 2001, 09:42:00 AM
Post by: Allan F on August 02, 2001, 02:50:00 AM
I beleive that through the sanctuary system God reveals the plan of salvation, which is the most important message ever given. In each item in the sanctuary we may find Gods love expressed to us, and we will also seek to understand how we can receive the blessings from each of them.
The sanctuary was placed in the middle of the camp. It was protected by God and surrounded by His people. In this way it was the centre of their attention.
Likewise, today, the lessons derived from the sanctuary should be the centre of Gods people. There our Lord wants us to have our focus. Unfortunately, this is not the situation today. Today, among the christianity, there are not one sanctuary, and one message, but many of the different "tribes of Israel" have set up their own sanctuaries, sending out false messages. Other have thrown out some of the furnitures of the true one.
Maybe we can take time to have a look into some of the false tabernacles after we have studied and got to know the true sanctary and its message.
The ALTAR
When one enters the sanctuary, the altar is the first item that one sees. Unlike many of the other items in the sanctuary, the altar was well known to the israelites. On the altar people had been offering animals usually a lamb) for hundreds of years.
So when the people found the altar in the sanctuary, it was not something unknown to them. On the other hand, the settings were new to them. We may ask ourselves some questions regarding this fact:
What does it symbolize?
In what way does it symbolize Gods work?
What role do humans have in that which takes place at the altar?
When we look for the meaning of what the altar symbolizes, let us seek to find answers from the mouth of Jesus, or from the rest of the Bible.
Allan F
Post by: Allan F on August 05, 2001, 12:58:00 PM
I remember a quotation from one of Ellen White's early books. She there describes how Adam, when he saw the first leaves die, mourned in the same way as we do when we loose a close friend.
When Adam killed his first lamb, he put faith in the longest prophecy in the Bible. The promise that someone else, one day would die for his sins, and give him and all who beleive, another chance.
This promise became the center of the worship of Gods children. Through faith in this free, unexpected gift, a door was opened to an eternal future. It made people lift their eyes and look beyond this world, to a God who wants us in heaven so much that he even would take the risk of the eternal life of his only son in order to save us.
The only person who is called "The lamb" in the Bible, is Jesus Christ:
"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29).
Jesus is the true lamb: "He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisements of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed... He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth" (Isa 53:5,7).
Therefore, "worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing."
Allan F
Post by: Richard Myers on August 06, 2001, 01:54:00 PM
Richard
Post by: Allan F on August 07, 2001, 05:33:00 AM
At the altar, there are two possibilities: Without Jesus, our walk through the sanctuary (our christian experience) would end at the very beginning, at the altar. Without the dead of Jesus, we would ourselves have to carry our sins, and thus be placed on the altar, and the gates to heaven would be for ever closed for our sinful race. But the glory of heaven was not attractive to Jesus as long as there was one sheep (read: planet) suffering in sin and sickness. Therefore Jesus came to our world, lived a perfect life and died for the sins of the world, so that we don't have to die the second, eternal death.
Therefore, at the beginning of the way through the sanctuary, we realize that a very high price has been paid for us, that we may receive eternal life. It relies totally on Gods love and grace. We could not have commanded God to save us.
The altar doesn't only symbolize what Jesus did for us, 2000 years ago. I also see a personal experience involved at the altar.
How may we receive the blessings from the altar? I look forward to thoughts and comments.
Allan F
Post by: Richard Myers on August 29, 2001, 10:07:00 AM
Richard
Post by: Allan F on August 30, 2001, 05:30:00 AM
God knows that if man shall turn from his evil ways, it is the "goodness of God (that) leadeth to repentance" (Rom 2:4).
Therefore it is important to get to know God, his character. This will lead men to the altar in sorrow for the sins that have caused the death of Jesus.
Jesus gave us the key (his blood). Now, we must use it to open the door of forgiveness that leads to eternal life. This means confession of sin to the ones being hurt by me and to their Creator. This is fair, but not always easy to do.
When the person laid his hands on the head of the animal at the altar, he showed by this action that he didn't want to keep his particular sin. He wants it to be taken away both from the books of heaven and from his own heart.
This is the prayer God wants to answer the most. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1Jn 1:9).
(In our study, let us try to understand how God handles the sin problem. Who is involved, how does sin come into the courtyard and the sanctuary, and how does it get out at last? Maybe we through this can learn some important lessons about God and His character.)
Allan F
Post by: jherbertthompson on September 04, 2001, 11:47:00 AM
Regarding the thought of how God addresses the sin problem, the alter, with all of its offerings and sacrifices did not *cleanse* the people from their sins...It did, however, provide a means where the children of Israel might understand -- and even teach other nations that although God hates sin, He loves the sinner.
Your brother in Christ.
Post by: Allan F on September 04, 2001, 12:53:00 PM
I agree with you that the altar is the place in the sanctuary that most clearly tells us that God loves us, every one, and also how much He was willing to do in order to save you and me.
But he still hates sin. I think we can learn an important lesson from just this fact. I feel that many people today have problems to seperate condemnation of a particular sin from a condemnation of the sinner. It is strongly beleived by many (also christians) that in order to accept and love a sinner, you must accept his sin (take for instance homosexuality which the Bible condemns).
This kind of love is not God's love. He wants to seperate sin from the sinner and He is the only one who can do that. Neither can Allah, Buddha, nor any other God.
But God says: "Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye" (Eze 18:31,32).
Allan F
Post by: Allan F on September 07, 2001, 02:50:00 AM
The LAVER
The laver was the second main furniture which was placed in the courtyard. The laver was filled with water. What was the water for? It was not for drinking, but for cleansing. Before the priests went into the tabernacle, they should wash their hands and feet.
What may the laver symbolize? Is there any text in the Bible that talk about a cleansing symbolized by cleansing by water?
Yes. In Ezek. 36:25-27 we read: "Then I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgements and do them."
This is what takes place at the laver. This was also what Jesus had in mind when he said to Nicodemus: "Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (Jn 3:5).
Paul described it as the "washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost, which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus christ our saviour" (Tit 3:5,6).
This is also symbolized in the baptism, where we rise into a new life. In fact the baptism is the strongest symbol (maybe the Sabbath) of creation. The earth that we live on today, came into existence by a word of God and rose out of the water. It really resembles the baptism. No wonder that Satan wanted to change the form of baptism. He has also been succesful in changing the creation story too.
The results from a new birth is quite visible, even though we cannot see the work that the Spirit do. The fruit is: "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance" (Gal 5:22,23).
This is the kind of people God want to inhabitate the new earth with. The courtyard experience means to come back to Gods original plan in truth and in spirit. By this we are standing just before God. Let us therefore take faith and walk into the sanctuary, "having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water" (Heb 10:22,23).
Allan F
Post by: Allan F on September 13, 2001, 11:14:00 AM
The courtyard symbolizes Jesus' activity on the earth. He died and rose from the grave, symbolized by the altar and the laver (Rom ch. 6). At the altar He offers us forgiveness and in this way He makes up for the past. At the laver He does something with our present condition, by creating a new heart. But this is not all. He is now in heaven to be our high priest and has promised to guide and help us in the future christian life.
While the symbols in the courtyard show us how we may receive eternal life, the holy place shows us how this life is.
In other words, we may say that in the court yard we are born into eternal life. The holy place is where this new life is to be lived. Here we grow in grace.
There were 3 main furnitures in the holy place: The table of shewbread, the altar of inscense and the seven branched candle stick.
To go from the courtyard into the tabernacle makes a radical change. Imagine that you are going from the altar where you have confessed your sins and killed an innocent lamb and into the special atmosphere in the tabernacle.
Inside the holy place there is a peaceful silence. The walls are covered by gold, and they reflect the light from the candle stick. From the most holy place the light which rests over the ark of the covenant sends in a wonderful light. What a sight for the eye!
But God has also made preparations for other senses. A sweet aroma of inscense fills the tabernacle, and the smell of the shewbread almost makes you hungry.
The burdens which were put off at the altar are now replaced with peace and happiness.
Let us begin our study with THE TABLE WITH THE SHEWBREAD
"And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger" (Jn. 7:35).
"Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word of God" (Luk. 4:4).
As physical food strengthen our body and help us to stay healthy, spiritual food will strengthen our soul. We are what we eat, some says. That's true both in the physical and spiritual life. In my short experience (not passed 30 yet) I have found that as the physical breakfast is the most important meal during the day, in the same way it is important to begin the day with a good spiritual breakfast.
To go a little further with the parallell we can say that as bread is the most important food item (at least where I live), our main spiritual food item should be "the bread of life", a study of the life of Christ. I don't think it was pure chance that Jesus, "the bread of life" was born in a manger (where the food for the animals was laid) in a town called Betlehem, which in hebrew means "the bread basket". I beleive God gave us an important lesson by doing this.
When we read the Bible it would be good to "chew" it well. Take time to enjoy it and beleive in it, because when the word was preached to the Israelites it "didn't profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it" (Heb. 4:2). To be surrounded by food doesn't help anyone. Only when we eat the food it will do its work.
Jesus knew this. Therefore he ate every word that came from the mouth of God. But his purpose for eating was not just because he wanted to be healthy and because it tasted good (some times it didn't taste good at all). He strengthened himself by Gods food because He had some important work to do. He lived for the purpose of rescuing others. For this important work He needed the very best "food".
Allan F
Post by: jherbertthompson on September 13, 2001, 03:33:00 PM
As, amoung other things, a smoker for more than fourty years; God through His Holy Spirit convicted and cleansed me from this habit [and others as well]...Because God "loves the sinner" but "hates the sin", I can clearly see that this very principle is at work in my life today...God has in fact "forgiven" and "cleansed" my sin; He cannot [with I think the exception of a miricle] take away the "consequences" of my sins...My point being, that there seems to be two -- widening ditches in the "Principles of Righteousness". On the one side there is "Grace" to an extreme; and to the other there is "Law" to an extreme.
Which is it? Grace -- Law? Illistration or Substitution? Or a combination of all in so perfectly balanced manner that finite man will never throughout eternity be able to fully understand it's [the story of redemption] meaning...
I think we all agree that God "hates sin"! And, He "loves the sinner"! God's "law" has been broken -- and yet death as a means to an end seems to "judicial" or "forensic" to many so we "wrap" it up in "pretty" dressing and try to sell it to one another as "grace". On-the-other hand; we are at "penalty" to the Law...are we not? Therefore, because we have "broken the rules" of the "Big Boss"; someone has to pay...and, because Jesus "loves us so much", God the Father must place His Son in our place and "kill Him" in our stead...
So, I ask you dear brother's, which is it? Or, is there, as in Ps. 85:10; a meeting of both "justice" and "mercy" at the cross? And, in what way was this presented to the children of Israel in the "sand-box model"?
Sincerly your brother in Christ.
Post by: jherbertthompson on September 14, 2001, 08:05:00 AM
"When we ask God of forgiveness of a particular sin (symbolized by what happened at the altar) God takes away that sin from the books of heaven and from our heart. The latter is symbolized by..."
I wish to challenge this concept. The "sins" of the people, individually or corporately were never taken "away"...At least in the earthly sanctuary. [Isa. 1:11; 56:7; Jer. 6:20; Eze. 43:18; Amos 5:22;
Heb. 10:7 (at: Ps. 40:6,7); Heb. 10:16 (at: Jer. 31:33; and finally Heb. 10:17 (at:
Jer. 31:34...]
The "washing of hands" at the Laver symbolized the "cleansing of the Priest" prior to his entry into the temple...[Ex. 30:17-21] There is nolo contendre here. Or in any further aspect of this presentation.
--------------------------------------------- -----------------------------------
In the following paragraph, however, I would challenge.
"As we now walk into the tabernacle and the holy place, let us try to sumarize what took place out in the courtyard. The courtyard symbolizes Jesus' activity on the earth. He died and rose from the grave, symbolized by the altar and the laver (Rom ch. 6). At the altar He offers us forgiveness and in this way He makes up for the past. At the laver He does something with our present condition by creating a new heart. But this is not all. He is now in heaven to be our high priest and has promised to guide and help us in the future christian life."
By-virtue-of library conditions, I will only make a brief statement with the following two (2) statements: DA, pp. 589,590; and, 3SP, pp. 20-23...
My contention is this. Although the Life of Christ, on this earth was represented in the Outer Couryard; it appears by Mrs. White's writings that it additionally represented the years leading up to the Life of Christ [OT].
As well put in your next statement, "while the symbolism represented in the Courtyard show us how we may receive eternal life; the holy place shows us how this life is." It is my belief that the outer court yard, then, made two representations: [1] it pointed the eyes of Israel to a coming saviour; [2] it also opened the light of the First Angel's Message which began at Pentecost...This is not in any way contrary to the teachings of the early pioneers of our church nor of the church today...I'm sure that there will be a great deal of dis-agreement regarding this...I am, however, prepared to show evidence(s) of this position if anyone is really interested.
Regarding the three main pieces of furniture in the Holy Place, it will be a pleasure to get to these also; perhaps in their time...
Sincerely your brother in Christ.
Post by: Allan F on September 15, 2001, 01:35:00 PM
Thank you for the comments. Just feel free to do ask question, but the more comments and questions I get in every post, the longer my answers will be...
But together we want to find the main message and the meaning of the items that we find in the sanctuary.
Before I go on I want to say, that in our effort to find the true meaning of the symbols, we must first go to our real world and ask ourselves what is the function of the particular symbol. I have found this very useful in my study of this topic. Next we must look for texts in the Bible that explain the meaning of the particular symbol (eg. the lamb = Jesus: Jn. 1:29).
In this way we will be able to put the pieces together. By the way, a study in the sanctuary resembles a study in the books of Daniel and revelation which also have many symbols.
Now to your comments:
- It is evident from the symbolism at the altar and from the first chapters in leviticus that at the altar the israelite received forgiveness from his sin, that means there was an atonement. By this, he was no longer carrying his own sin. Jesus, the true lamb is the sin bearer (Jn. 1:29). The sin does no longer stands against us in the records of heaven.
Of course did not the blood of the lamb take away any sin, but this pointed to Jesus as the one who is the only one who can give us forgiveness. Remember that the sanctuary only served as a copy of the true, heavenly one. The real sanctuary service has been going on for 2000 years now. This, many christians have not known.
We must not get confused here. Adam, Noah, David and Isaiah did all receive forgiveness for their sins. Jesus died for every one of them. But there was one time in the history that he did that. Strict legally, Adam had to wait ca. 5000 years before he was truly forgiven by the blood of Jesus for his sin in Eden.
Total atonement for our sins only occurs at the day of aytonement, "For on that day shall the priest make atonment for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the Lord." Why it is so, we will discuss when we begin the study of the most holy place.
But at the altar we receive forgiveness and we do no longer carry our confessed sins. Jesus has taken them away.
Some of the bible vesers that you refer to reveal another important fact. Among others you mentions Jer 6:20 were we read: "Your burnt offerings are not acceptable, nor your sacrifices sweet unto me." Why?
Let us read Hosea 6:6: "For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings."
God does not only free us from the condemnation of sin, but also from its power. The offerings were not to the honour of God because they would not allow God to change their hearts.
- I am sorry that I had problem to understand your comments on my explanation of the laver.
"There is nolo contendre here. Or in any further aspect of this presentation."
What does this "nolo contendre" expression mean?
- That the courtyard also symbolizes the years up to Christ is an interesting thought. But I have problem to see it clearly, right now. Maybe you can help me?
- You also mentioned that the courtyard may symbolize "the opening of the light of the first angels message". It would be interesting to get this explained a little more. I am looking forward to it :)
Sorry for the length of this post. I will try to write shorter answers next time...
Allan F
Post by: Allan F on September 16, 2001, 01:11:00 PM
The 12 bread that were placed on the table every sabbath, were to remind the priest and the people about Gods love and mercy. Both in our spiritual and physical life we are dependent upon Gods power. As He gives us spiritual life through his Word, his only begotten son, we are also totally dependent upon him in receiving physical life. He makes the seed grow, the sun shining, and in many unknown ways he protects us from different dangers.
The israelites were in a special way reminded upon their dependence of God during their journey in the wilderness, when God sent supernatural food.
God cares for his children in every aspect, and want to give all men "life, and that they might have it more abundantly" (Jn 10:10).
There were 12 cakes on the table. That symbolized one for every of the 12 tribes of Israel. God doesn't make difference between people. He wants all people to receive what they need. God wants his word to be spread to all his church, and then He wants his church to take it to the whole world. For long times only priests had access to Gods word. That was not Gods intention. Gods word is for all people.
Further, it is interesting to know that the bread consisted of these ingredients: grain, oil and salt. Is there not a symbolism in this? In the Bible these items have a special meaning (Jn 12:24; Matt 13:18-23; Zech 4:2-6).
When Jesus gave spiritual bread to the people, he put all the ingredients into it. But the pharisees did not do that. They presented the word without oil (The Holy Spirit) and salt (the right. of Christ). Of this reason their message became dry and tasteless. Of course the Israelites were undernoursihed!
But Jesus was himself the bread of life and presented his message with all the ingredients, so that the people would have the oportunity to receive all the essential ingredients they needed.
How do we present the Word of God? Do we put all the ingredients into it, or do we present a dry and tasteless testimony to the world?
May God help us to give a whole message to the world.
Allan F
Post by: Richard Myers on September 18, 2001, 01:35:00 PM
Jesus said: "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven: but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.... I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.... Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth may flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me." Jesus explained what He meant by eating His flesh and drinking His blood. He meant that His disciples were to partake of His Word. He said, "It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
Richard
Post by: Allan F on September 24, 2001, 01:33:00 PM
The CANDLESTICK
In the tabernacle, there was also a seven branched candlestick, made of pure gold. On top of every arm there was a lamp, filled with olive oil.
What does all this symbolize?
Let us go to the Bible and find texts that talk about what light symbolizes:
1) "I am the light of the world", Jesus said (Jn 8:12). As the sun came on the fourth day in the week of creation, so did Jesus come to our world after four thousand years with sin. The sun of righteousness came to the earth in its darkest period of time (DA p.x?). Satan had done everything in the book to degrade the human race. But Jesus came for totally other purposes. He came to save the world. Not just by dying on the cross, but also by showing men how God is. "In him was life; and the life was the light of men" (Jn 1:4). And it is our privilege to be in the light. "He that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life" (Jn 8:12). The life of christ and the life that resembles his life is what lightens up the world today.
Therefore Jesus said:
2)"Ye are the light of the world. Let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father in heaven." This is the main purpose of being light. "The fruit of the light consists in all GOODNESS, RIGHTEOUSNESS and TRUTH (Eph 5:9).
In Rev. ch. 1 we are told that the candlesticks symbolized the church. And the church today consists of you and me. And it is our purpose and privilege to light up a spiritually dark world. But in order to be light we need both oil (the holy spirit) and someone who have the spark to give light to the candlestick (the priest = Jesus).
- We do not have the light in ourselves.
This is the first important lesson to learn from this symbol.
- The second lesson which I find important is this: It is not living for itself. A candlestick is totally dedicated for the purpose of giving light to others.
- The third important lesson: The only reason for having a candlestick is because it shall give light. In other words, the only purpose for Gods church is to lighten up the world (see parable in Matt 25:1-13). If it fails to do this, God can not use it. That is why God gives this message to the church in Ephesus: "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent" (Rev 2:5).
The candlestick was made of ca. 35 kg pure gold and where probably the most valuable item in the sanctuary. Today its value would have been about 280.000 USD (taken the gold prices of today in account).
Gods church, you and me, are extremely valuable in the eyes of the Lord. He has an everlasting love toward us and has bought us with an infinite price, by sending the light of the world to the earth that we may have the possibility to also become lights in this world.
The candle stick is in a way the opposite symbol to the table of shewbread. We are not only to study the Bible and receive the blessings from the Lord. We do also have a work to do. We are to be his witnesses by how we are, what we do and through our words. This will in its turn strengthen our faith and our walk with Jesus.
"He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him" (1Jn 2:10).
Allan F
Post by: Richard Myers on September 30, 2001, 08:52:00 PM
And the oil used in the lampstand represents the source of the light. We see a reference to oil in the parable of the ten virgins. It is that which, we as a people have been counseled to buy of Jesus. It is called "eye salve" also. Is not the oil a representation of the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit. This is our need and His promise!
Richard
Post by: Allan F on October 02, 2001, 01:38:00 PM
The Altar of Incense
The third main furniture in the holy place was the altar of incense. The altar was covered by gold and it was the item closest to the most holy place.
What does this item symbolize?
Let us first seek to find the meaning of the incense. In Rev 5:8 and 8:3 we find incense used as symbol of prayer. Let us read the two verses:
"And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints."
Revelation 5:8
"And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne."
Revelation 8:3
In Rev 5:8 incense symbolizes the prayers of Gods people. David says in Psalm 141: "Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense".
Incense is assosiated with worship. In ancient times when the early christian church was persecuted, many of the captured christians were forced to choose between either to lay incense in front of the heathen idols or to die in the faith of God (Jahve) as their only God. What a test for Gods people! There was no doubt about what this act symbolized, and many refused to worship these idols, with fatal results.
The last thing many of these people saw in this life were these false gods. But when they open their eyes at the second coming, they will have the privilege to look into the eyes of the only true God and saviour. Then they will receive the reward.
Prayer lifts us up to a heavenly atmosphere. The altar of incense was placed as near as possible to the most holy place, the throne of God. Through prayer we come very near to God. He listens to us and wants to do the very best for us:
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?" (Matt 7:7-11).
In Rev 8:3 we see another aspect of prayer. There, incense is added to the prayer of the saints. This may be understood as symbolic of the ministration of Christ for His people (see Rom 8:26; Heb 7:25). Christ, as intercessor, mingles His merits with the prayers of the saints, which are thereby made acceptable with God.
Through prayer we receive the vital power from God. If we begin the day by kneeling before the ruler of the universe, we may stand honestly and frank before whoever we may meet during the day.
Allan F
Post by: Richard Myers on October 03, 2001, 07:22:00 AM
Richard
Post by: Allan F on October 14, 2001, 12:42:00 PM
- As it was expressed in another topic here on TRO, the main symbols of the sanctuary seem to have a double meaning. First, they show Gods work in the plan of salvation. Secondly they also show our part in this.
Take for instance the altar. The altar symbolize the death of Jesus, "the lamb of God". By His death he has provided forgiveness. This is His part. But the altar also symbolize our part, to give our sins to Jesus and receive forgiveness through accepting Him as saviour and confession of our sins.
The next step is the laver were we are renewed in our mind and heart by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit, symbolized by the water has the ability to cleanse, but there must be somebody to cleanse.
Through the sanctuary we see this double meaning and the close cooperation between God and His children. We need to walk through the sanctuary in faith and have trust in the plans God has for us.
What takes place in the sanctuary is all of grace. Through the symbols we see so clear how miserable we are without divine help. We need God in order to be forgiven, cleansed, receive physical and spiritual strength, in order to be lights and communicate with God. Who can say that the OT teach salvation by works? Yes, salvation from sin is by works. Gods works for us and in us.
- Briefly, we can say that in the courtyard we are told how to receive eternal life, or how to enter into the covenant with God. The holy place shows us how to live the christian life and how to stay in the covenant and grow as christians. Usually we call the first 'justification' and the latter 'sanctification'. What is needed in order to enter the tabernacle, is the same that is required in order to enter heaven: Forgiveness and cleansing. Even the thief on the cross experienced this. He was truly forgiven and truly cleansed. This was all that was required of him. But of course if he had survived the cross he would have had to stay in the covenant (sanctification) in order to be in a saving relationship with his saviour.
- As the laver, which symbolize cleansing from sin, stood outside of the tabernacle, we must be cleansed before we enter the tabernacle (sanctification). The laver is the only place for cleansing. The holy place (sanctification) is the place for growing. And before we can grow, we must be born. Born of water and of the spirit. The love we receive from God which is "the fulfilling of the law" (Rom 13:10), must be created in us before we can enter the tabernacle.
- The items in the holy place symbolize how to grow and stand firm in the covenant.
The table of shewbread symbolizes that God communicates with us trough His word. At the altar of incense we communicate back to God through prayer. The third item, the candle stick symbolizes us, communicating light to the world.
We also see the activity of the Godhead through these items. We pray: "our Father in heaven"; Jesus is the "bread of life" and he mingles his righteousness with our prayers, and The Holy Spirit (oil) makes it possible for us to be lights for others, etc. In all this we see the cooperation between both the Father, The Son and the Spirit and also cooperation between God and man.
Allan F
Post by: Claudia Marie on October 15, 2001, 11:04:00 AM
You said:
- As the laver, which symbolize cleansing from sin, stood outside of the tabernacle, we must be cleansed before we enter the tabernacle (sanctification). The laver is the only place for cleansing. The holy place (sanctification) is the place for growing. And before we can grow, we must be born. Born of water and of the spirit. The love we receive from God which is "the fulfilling of the law" (Rom 13:10), must be created in us before we can enter the tabernacle.
================
What you said made me think of Isaiah and the sanctuary. Wasn't the coals from off the altar a thing used for cleansing too though? Here's the Spirit of Prophecy quotation Im thinking of:
Gospel Workers page 22
Chapter Title: Called With a Holy Calling
"As God's ministers look by faith into the holy of holies, and see the work of our great High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary, they realize that they are men of unclean lips, men whose tongues have often spoken vanity. Well may they despair as they contrast their own unworthiness with the perfection of Christ.
"With contrition of heart, feeling wholly unworthy and unfit for their great work, they cry,"I am undone." But if, like Isaiah, they humble their hearts before God, the work done for the prophet will be performed for them. Their lips will be touched with a live coal from off the altar, and they will lose sight of self in a sense of the greatness and power of God and His readiness to help them. They will realize the sacredness of the work entrusted to them, and will be led to abhor everything that would cause them to dishonor Him who has sent them forth with His message."
This is a place that has always made me wonder about the idea of having to be cleansed before entering the sanctuary. It almost makes me think that people really arent "clean" and that its more the realization of our own uncleanness that prepares us to receive the humility of heart which would enable God to help us get rid of self altogether, which would then prepare us for ministry, or to be a light to the world.
I wonder if this has any significance? or am I just misunderstanding? Im thinking that it would be important to realize this (if it is true, that is), because if we dont, then we will go around believing ourselves to be cleansed when maybe we are not? and lead us to think more highly of ourselves than we should?
It seems like the two main thoughts I get from this quotation are that only by knowing whats in the most holy place, can we really see and know the total perfection of Christ, and thereby realize how we dont measure up to that perfection. We realize how unclean we are. And the other idea I get from it is that it is then that we realize our complete inability to cleanse ourselves of sin and then we see though how God has all the power to do it and the willingness to do it.
Maybe you were just talking about the Holy Place though, I couldnt bring myself to read through all the 7 pages on this subject, so I couldve missed that.
Claudia
[This message has been edited by Claudia Marie (edited 10-15-2001).]
Post by: Richard Myers on October 15, 2001, 04:37:00 PM
The congregation of course has responsibilities, but not as great as the ministers. Moses was laid to rest because he thought to teach the people without having first cleansed his heart from self, or rather allowing Jesus to cleanse it. :) Hope this helps some.
Post by: Allan F on October 16, 2001, 01:29:00 PM
Happy to see someone who makes comments to my post. It should not be a monologue.
My last post which you made comments on, was a review of far we have come into the sanctuary. We have not yet talked about the Most Holy place, but we will soon continue, with this last section of the tabernacle.
Thank you for the reminding of the verse from Isaiah ch. 6. From this text we see how serious it is to be a preacher of the Word. Even the ministers and the preachers may fall, and speak with unclean lips. This hurts Jesus, but if we humble ourselves he will touch our lips with coal from the altar, as was done to Isaiah. By this act, "the iniquity is taken away, and the sin is purged" (Isa 6:7). This a wonderful picture of the transformation which takes place when we humble ourselves in Gods presence. The coal from the altar represents the purifying and refining power of divine grace. This work was necessary before Isaiah could start his work as Gods messengers.
As you wrote, it is of vital importance that we humble ourselves when God wants us to work for him.
To have right thoughts and feelings are not something way down the line. We can through divine power have right feelings and thoughts today. It is therefore no excuse for sin. Through sanctification the character is stabilized, and we grow in the fruits of the spirit through divine power.
We may walk into the tabernacle unaware of the sabbath, the health laws etc., but we cannot go into the tabernacle with anger and unpatience in the heart. "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal" (1 Cor 13:1).
This was only some few thoughts from me.
Please feel free to make comments on this.
Allan F
Post by: Allan F on October 19, 2001, 12:14:00 PM
Throughout the jewish year there was activity in the courtyard and in the Holy place, but in the Most Holy there was only activity one day during the year. That day, "The Day of Atonment" is still the most important day for the jews (yom kippur).
"On this day he shall make atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgression in all their sins... on that day shall the priest make an atonment for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the Lord" (Lev 16:16,30).
What has puzzled many theologians, and specially non-SDA's, is why there neeeded to be a Day of Atonment, when there was made atonment in the courtyard every day throughout the year.
We have learned that at the altar we give our sins to Jesus, and we do no longer carry them ourselves. Jesus thereafter carries them into the tabernacle, which therefor becomes unclean because the sins. But why didn't Jesus make a final atonment at the altar (cross)?
I beleive that we can find an answer in one of Jesus' parables. In Matt 18:23-35 "the kingdom of heaven is likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants" (v.23).
And the King found someone who owed him 10.000 talents, but it was utterly impossible for the man to pay that amount back again. This symbolize our condition. We have all sinned and fallen short and can not pay back our debt.
But the king in this parable was a mercyfull king and he forgave him the debt. This a picture of Gods beautiful character. He will have compassion with all sinful people who humble themselves and seek for mercy. How wonderful that God is the God of the universe and not me, or Satan.
So far, the parable has described what took place in the courtyard. The King has forgiven the debt symbolize that we are forgiven our sins.
Then the parable shows another important aspect of the "the kingdom of heaven" and what it is likened unto.
The man in the parable which have been shown so much mercy, we would suppose would follow the same principles that the king followed. But he reveals that he is not like his king. He refuses to forgive his debtor, which only owes him 100 penance, and puts him in jail. What an uncompassionate man. When the King hear about this, he calls in the man which had previously owed him 10.000 talents, and tells him that he should have forgiven that man instead of putting him to jail.
Then the king decided that this man still should pay all the 10.000 talents.
What can we learn from this last part of the parable? When we are forgiven at the altar, our sins are forgiven in the same way as the man was forgiven his unpayable debt. But when we have given our sins to Jesus and he has taken them into the tabernacle, we must let him keep them too. The parable tells us that if we turn away from our conversion, then the sins we have comitted will come upon our own head again, and Jesus can not do what he wants to do for us on "The Day of Atonment".
If this thought is new for you and seems strange and not biblical, I recommend chapters 18 and 33 in the book of Ezekiel where the same thoughts are presented as in the parable in Matt 18.
On the Day of Atonment the priest went into the Most holy, where the ark of the covenant stood. The most important question to ask oneself that day was: Have I entered the covenant with my Lord? What was inside the ark of the covenant showed whether one was living in the covenant or not. All this made the day very special and important, and it is maybe therefore the day is still the most important day for the jews.
But this day was not a day to be frightened. It was a day to have trust in the saviour. When the day was over, all the sins which had made the tabernacle unclean were gone away with the scapegoat, and happiness followed soon after during the feast of the tabernacles.
The Jewish day of atonment pointed forward to a final time in the history when God will make an end to sin and sinners. That is both a serious happening but also something to look forward to. We beleive that God already has started this process and soon will end his work. How we can say this, we will discuss later.
Allan F
Post by: Jean Miller on October 20, 2001, 08:53:00 PM
When The Judgment Of The Living Begins
I will do this study proving all of my points from both Ellen White and the Bible. I always like to have proof for each point from both sources as then I am doubly sure I’m on the right track. Also note that I have put all key words in all caps. This will help you to follow the line of thought as you begin to see how these key words relate and explain one another.
Will we know when the judgment of the living begins? Yes, I believe so. This study will attempt to do just that. The clue to understanding this subject lies in the sanctuary. Judgment Day is the Day of Atonement. When we are judged, our sins are blotted out of all records of these sins in the universe (God’s mind, our minds, and the books in heaven), and we are sealed for eternity. This process all happens at the same time, and it happens during the latter rain which occurs during the time of trouble before probation closes. The statement I just made I will prove with the following texts and quotes.
In the Bible the words “blot,” “purge,” and “cleanse” all mean the same thing and can be used interchangeably. Here’s the proof.
“Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindess; according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies BLOT out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and CLEANSE me from my sin. PURGE me with hyssop, and I shall be CLEAN; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.” Psalm 51:1-2,7.
“Because that the worshippers once PURGED should have had no more conscience (knowledge—see Strong’s) of sins.” Hebrews 10:2. Why can’t we remember our sins? Because they have been blotted out of our minds.
“And thou shalt take of the blood thereof, and put it on the four horns of it, and on the four corners of the settle, and upon the border round about; thus shalt thou CLEANSE and PURGE it.” Ezekiel 44:20.
“Iniquities prevail against me; as for our transgressions, thou shalt PURGE them away.” Psalm 65:5.
“I have BLOTTED out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and as a cloud, thy sins.” Isaiah 44:22.
There’s more texts I could quote to prove that these words are interchangeable and mean the same event, but this is enough for now. (If you don’t believe me, do your own study using Strong’s.)
When are our sins purged? “When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have PURGED the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of JUDGMENT.” Thus, we are purged by the judgment.
When does this purging, blotting, and judging occur? “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be BLOTTED out, WHEN the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.” What are these times of refreshing? The latter rain.
How can we prove the “latter rain” is the “refreshing?” “To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to REST; and this if the REFRESHING; yet they would not hear.” Isaiah 28:12. When we get REST we are REFRESHED and REVIVED. On a hot day are we not revived and refreshed when we drink a long cool drink of water or, as we did when we were children, run around under the sprinkler? Yes, water and RAIN REVIVE us.
“After two days will he REVIVE us; in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord; his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the LATTER and former RAIN unto the earth.
So, when does this LATTER RAIN occur that is the same time as when our sins are BLOTTED out and we are JUDGED?
Notice the context of the second chapter of Joel. “Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain; let all the inhabitants of the land tremble (sounds like what is happening here in the US right now!); for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand; a day of darkness, and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains; a great people and a strong (144,000); there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.” Joel 2:1-2. Does this not sound like the time of trouble? Study the words “day of the Lord” through the Bible and you will see that these words are referring to the Second Coming and the events that lead up to it. With this context of the time of trouble in mind, read Joel 2:23, “Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the Lord your God; for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.” Thus we see that it is in the time of trouble that the latter rain falls. Notice also that Joel 2:32 say, “And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered.” Thus, this latter rain falls during the time of trouble before the close of probation since Joel is telling us that during this time people are still being saved.
Now, let’s connect everything. Since our sins are blotted out and purged during the judgment, and since the blotting out occurs when the latter rain falls, and since the latter rain falls during the time of trouble before the close of probation, then by connecting all of this we discover that the judgment of the living is during the time of trouble before the close of probation.
Notice how Ellen White also connects these events (judgment, blotting out of sins, and latter rain) together as well.
“Are we closely examining our own hearts? Are we by repentance and confession sending our sins beforehand to JUDGMENT, that they may be BLOTTED out when the times of REFRESHING shall come?” Second Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, 8-28-1883.
“’The commencement of that time of trouble,’ here mentioned does not refer to the time when the plagues hall begin to be poured out, but to a short period just before they are poured out, while Christ is in the sanctuary. At that time, while the work of salvation is closing, trouble will be coming on the earth, and the nations will be angry, yet held in check so as not to prevent the work of the third angel. At that time the “LATTER RAIN,” or REFRESHING from the presence of the Lord, will come, to give power to the loud voice of the third angel, and prepare the saints to stand in the period when the seven last plagues shall be poured out.” The Early Writings of Ellen G. White, p 85.
“You will talk and we will not be thinking of ourselves and what others are doing, but what God and Jesus are doing…What are they doing? They are CLEANSING the SANCTUARY OF OUR SOULS of all unrighteousness, that our names may be written in the Lamb’s book of life, that our sins may be BLOTTED out when the times of REFRESHING shall come from the presence of the Lord.” Lift Him Up, p. 216.
“Time is fast hastening on, and every work will soon be brought into JUDGMENT, and either our sins or our names will be BLOTTED out of the Book of Life.” Sons and Daughters of God, p. 49.
Those who have not ceased to sin and who have not repented and sought pardon for their transgressions are not represented in this company; for this company vex their souls over the corruptions and iniquity abounding around them, and God will recognize those who are sighing and crying because of the abominations done in the land. They were not mixed up in these abominations. They had not corrupted their ways before God, but had washed their robes of character and had made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Satan pointed to their sins which had not yet been BLOTTED out, and which he had tempted them to commit, and then reviled them as being sinners clad with filthy garments. But Jesus changes their appearance. He says, "Take away his filthy garments from him." "Behold I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment, and I said, let him set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments." Manuscript Releases Volume Four, p. 250.
Notice how Ellen White connects “cleansing,” “sealing,” and “latter rain.” “Not one of us will ever receive the SEAL of God while our characters have one spot or stain upon them. It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to CLEANSE the soul temple of every defilement. Then the LATTER RAIN will fall upon us…” Maranatha p. 232.
To recap again, the sealing, cleansing, purging, blotting out of sins, and the latter rain all occur during the time of the judgment, which is the Day of Atonement. When our sins are blotted out we are judged and this occurs during the time of trouble as I have proved from the above quotes.
Ellen White says that the first and second angels’ messages will be repeated. “ The first message is to be repeated proclaiming the second advent of Christ to our world. The second angels' message is to be repeated, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is
become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. Manuscript Release Vol. 16 p. 40. They were originally proclaimed just before 1844 when the judgment of the dead began. Why are they repeated? Well, the first angel’s message states that the hour of judgment has come. This message is repeated to the world when the judgment of the living is about to start. Just like God warned the world when the judgment of the dead began, so will He warn the world when the judgment of the living begins. And, it begins during the time of trouble before the close of probation as the above texts and quotes prove. Yes, the 144,000 will loudly proclaim when the judgment of the living is about to begin. God does nothing without revealing His secrets unto His servants the prophets. (Amos 3:7) And these servants will faithfully proclaim to the world what they have learned, even though they will be persecuted severely for doing so.
I recognize that this study takes a little “brain power” and one may not fully grasp all the connections until it is read several times, which I encourage you to do.
Post by: jherbertthompson on October 21, 2001, 08:48:00 PM
Brother Allen. Do you believe that there is in fact a *final atonement*? In theory I suppose I do. My thoughts are that [1] the first atonement was accomplished when Christ hung upon the cross - a substitutionary life for the ultimate payment for sin(s); [2] the second portion of the atonement being upon Christ's third return when, before the on-looking universe, this planet with all remaining inhabitants, and the very *sin problem* it's self will finally be atoned for.
<<What has puzzled many theologians, and specially non-SDA's, is why there neeeded to be a Day of Atonment, when there was made atonment in the courtyard every day throughout the year.>>
I think it most interesting that Paul [or let's just say for the sake of conjecture, anyone who may have written], writing to the believer's in we believe Rome; took almost an entire seven chapters in Hebrews to come to the conclusion that; a] Christ was a *better* priest; b] the new covenant was a *better* covenant; c] and following the flow we see that he clearly points out that Christs atoneing sacrifice at the cross could only be accepted as such by the Father, the Angels, and also the on-looking universe - so that man, in his limited and at best faint understanding of these *spiritual things*, could accept this *bridge* as-it-were, of life when we in fact truely deserved death...[Just for the language of this subject, read chapters 7&8 of Hebrews in the NKJV, it really makes clear the object of this some what oblique concept for mind so un-learned as my own :)]
This contribution to the thread will probably sound in contridiction to what I've said in former posts. There is much room for the discussion of a balance between law and justice -&- mercy and grace...I think that we could all pretty well figure out the image of God which each one of us portray in their posts -- and to this I might also add as was pointed out to me in another forum; God has told us not to *take His Name in vail*; yet, while mis-representing Him in character, nature, or government, we also take His Name in vain...
The more I study the vastness of these subjects; the greater the rift between my own conception of *truth* and Gods ideal of *Love* in His *Law*.
Unto He who is able!
Post by: M.A. Crawford on October 22, 2001, 08:36:00 AM
Bro. Thompson, will you please be so kind as to (1) SHOW US FROM SCRIPTURE when Christ is supposed to have made His second return? And (2) where the Bible talks about a "third return" of Christ?
M.A.
Post by: Richard Myers on October 22, 2001, 10:19:00 AM
Richard
Post by: Allan F on October 22, 2001, 01:11:00 PM
Together we want to grow in knowledge and understanding of this subject. Especially I appreciated your thoughts on Acts 3. The times of refreshing seems to point to the "latter rain" period which lies in the future. Then Jesus has ended his atoning ministry in the tabernacle.The last events will then follow quickly, and Jesus will return as king to take home his people.
Brother Thompson, I beleive like you, that the Bible talks about a final atonment. That I find to be prior to Jesus second coming, and not after his arrival. Our sister Jean mentioned Acts 3:19-21 where it says:
"19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
We see from these verses that the sins will be blotted out before Jesus comes again. See also Heb 9:28.
Allan F
Post by: jherbertthompson on October 22, 2001, 08:15:00 PM
[1]Christ's first coming as a man Jn.1:14;
[2]His second, 1Thess.4:16,17;
[3]His third and final return 2Thess.1:3-10.
He loves you. He loves me. Even if we cannot or will not agree... :)
Your brother in Christ.
Post by: Liane H on October 22, 2001, 09:35:00 PM
Got a double take of your posts. It happens once in awhile when we hit the wrong key.
I think I understand where you both are coming from. Some say two and some say three times Jesus is suppose to come.
My thought is that the first time Jesus came as a Man to save sinners. The second time he comes as King to take his Saints.
The first two he was coming for mankind to save and redeem.
I do not see the third time, if you want to call it that, as a coming. It is more as a finishing of what he has to do. He will be bringing the Saints with Him. Sad to say what will be left of this last event is the destruction of sinful man, angels and this present earth.
Does this help anyone?
Liane
Post by: jherbertthompson on October 23, 2001, 03:10:00 PM
Brothers and Sisters. Liane, I really like your comments. And perhaps, as in my opinion,
a good many of us fall into this trap of symantics - it occurs to my, however, that one might do just as well refraining from such as often as possible and let the conversations continue, at least to a point where one gets so far out there that a reality check is necessary. For, we all get a bit *out there* at times. No?
For your consideration. Perhaps as justification, sanctification, and glorification are at
once - yet seperate parts of the *Atonement Process*. The third coming, as I have put it is actually to say that it is in this *cleansing* of this world - and universe, which makes or a *final* atonement? And this all happens when all of us return with Him the third and final time as watch as He *purges - cleanses - sets right* His universe...Whatchthink?
Brother Allen. Regarding your post of 10-19, I wonder [as I think I've stated before] if we make *to much* of the seperate(ness) of the cleansing of "the people" and the "sanctuary" in regard to the events concerning the 2300 year prophecy of Daniel? There is, in my opinion, nothing to distinguish the point that on the Day of Atonement, the curtain between the Holy and Holy of Holies was not seperated as [while] the High Priest *cleansed* the sins of the people [before the vail] and the Ark of the Covenant [the Mercy Seat]? This is, as I understand it, exactly what is going on in the Heavenly Sanctuary today as we speak...both of the living, and the dead...I'd like to talk more on this subject if you wouldn't mind...
Sister Miller. You said: "The Jewish day of atonment pointed forward to a final time in the history when God will make an end to sin and sinners. That is both a serious happening but also something to look forward to. We beleive that God already has started this process and soon will end his work." You continued by stating: "The clue to understanding this subject lies in the sanctuary. Judgment Day is the Day of Atonement. When we are judged, our sins are blotted out of all records of these sins in the universe (God’s mind, our minds, and the books in heaven), and we are sealed for eternity. This process all happens at the same time, and it happens during the latter rain which occurs during the time of trouble before probation closes."
First of all sister, I must agree, at least in part to you conclusion of *what* the Jewish Day of Atonement represents(ed). However, are you suggesting that there will be for God, and for us as well, a sort of *holy amniesia? And if not, what sort of *forgetfullness* are you describing? It occurs to me that we forget that David will *always* be the Solomons father out of wedlock and Beersheba his mother...Don't you think it highly unlikely Uriah will look at this as at all *right*? How so praytell? No, I think he will indeed question if not openly than to both David and Beershebahad privately as to *where this quite obviously *illegitimate* son came to be? I will always have been what I have been as will you be who you are...The point is, in my opinion, have our *hearts* been changed? Are we *safe* to be eternal neighbor's with angles and the unfallen beings of the universe? I know there will be *some question*, at least in the mind of my guardian angel as to whether or not I will be a safe neighbor. "Jim? Come on...I was there! I know what sort of character he has been"...Yet, I believe that God
the Father, Jesus His Son, and the Holy Spirit will come to my [and all of the redeemeds] rescue and explain to the universe that *our hearts* have been *changed* and we *are safe* to bring home!
Consider if you will 1 Kings 11:34. Here, He tells Solomon that He will stay His hand of execution of punishment from taking the whole kingdom from him [Solomon] BECAUSE OF his father David, who "kept My commandments and my statutes". What do you think Solomon must have been thinking? "Are you kidding Lord? MY father? Who kept your commandments and statutes? Are we talking about the same man here? I don't think so! In reminiscence of, and surely respect to my father perhaps you were able to forgive; but "Kept Your commandments? Come on!"
I mean absolutely no sacasm or sacrilege here. Far from it...What do you think we will be
doing during the thousand year period while satan and his are stuck on this tiny little
ball in the universe with nothing to do but pick on each other? No, I think that there
will be a great deal of *restoration* and *healing* to be going on. Explinations and for-
giveness - and, not all eyes will be *dry* during this period of time either - there will
be a lot of things to mourn. None-the-less, can anyone here see my point?
Your sonnet from Psalms 51 is all well and good taken in it's place - *still behind the *vail of the Holy and Most Holy places...I will gladly get into the terms of *purge or cleanse* if that will help in further scrutiny of my position - I see it unlikely :) The point is, as I've already stated, we are speaking of a change of heart are we not? It is not that God does not care about *what* we have done...His main or whole concern is *who* we are...When looking at David, you, or I, He sees not what we have done - but only His Goodness through the cross of Christ. What we have been is secondary to what we have become. He just cannot remember!
Hebrews 10:26 has been a thorn [so-to-speak] in my side for a number of years...And with this thought I will try and wrap-up in whole my above-mentioned consideration. It seems, at least on the face of things that, if Christ, our High Priest were in the Holy Place alone, than all has already been decided...This would surely be ground for an argument of predestination. No, it is my belief that while there is yet one, undecided soul upon the earth, Christ must by necessity be working in both the Holy and Holy of Holies...He cannot make arbitrary judgment...else His whole universe would see the flaw. He must not only offer - but extend the time of *judgment* until the last person has decided on who's side he stands...
So much to consider. So much at stake. So little time!
Your brother in Christ.
Post by: Allan F on October 26, 2001, 10:09:00 AM
I am not sure I did understand your thoughts on the separation between the cleansing of the sanctuary and the people. Please explain more about this.
Allan
Post by: M.A. Crawford on October 28, 2001, 09:45:00 AM
M.A.
Post by: jherbertthompson on October 29, 2001, 12:55:00 PM
In His Service. :o
Post by: Allan F on November 16, 2001, 11:54:00 AM
What does the jewish feasts have to do with the sanctuary? I have sometimes asked myself this question. As I have studied the sanctuary topic I have found that there seems to be a relationship between the different portions of the sanctuary and the jewish feasts. It is my intention to present this here in an easy and understandable way.
But let us first keep in mind the basic structure of the sanctuary before we go to the jewish feasts.
As you read through this posting, recognize that the different numbers correspond to the different items/portions of the sanctuary.
1.= Altar
2.= Laver
3.= The holy place
4.= The most holy place
Up til now we have been studying what the sanctuary teaches us about salvation and the basic steps in the our personal, christian experience:
1. Forgiveness
2. Cleansing
3. Sanctification, growing in the fruits of the spirit
4. Final atonement / judgment / acquittal
We may look at these steps from different perspectives: From the view of what is God's part:
1. The Cross
2. Ressurrection / work of the Holy Spirit
3. Jesus' intercession in the holy place
4. Jesus as judge and advocate in the most holy place
We may also look at it from the perspective of what is our part:
1.-2. Confession, surrendering, turn away from sin
3. Keep near to God. Bible study, prayer, witnessing, walk on God's ways
4. Let Jesus keep our sins, so that He can make the final atonement our sins.
But let us not forget that salvation from sin implies cooperation, because there are one who saves and one who is being saved.
Now, we know that Jesus have gone through the sanctuary from the altar to the most holy. He started two thousand years ago at the altar and is today in the most holy place. How do we explain that?
What I have found very interesting is that if we combine the sanctuary, the jewish feasts and prophecy, we can see when Jesus took the different steps in the heavenly sanctuary.
There were 4 feasts in the jewish year: The passover, the Pentecost/feast of weeks, the Day of atonment and the Feast of tabernacles. The numbers following do still apply to the steps in the sanctuary (1=altar, 2=laver, 3=the holy, 4=the most holy)
1. The passover was the first feast and took place for the first time at exodus, while the israelites were still in Egypt. The expression "passover" simply means "to pass". This feast came in the beginning of the year. In a special way this feast symbolized Jesus' atoning death for mankind. When we apply the blood of Jesus it marks the beginning of the christian life. The blood of Jesus opens the door to eternal life.
When Jesus died on the cross, He died after the jewish calendar, that would say in the passover, when the lamb was to be offered at the altar in the temple. The prophecy that tells us when this happened, we find in Dan 9. In the midst of the 70th week He should make an end to offerings. This was in the year 31 AD, on the 14th day in the first month, at the time when they slaughtered the passover lamb (ca. 3:30pm).
2. On the third day of the feast there was offered a wave sheaf, the first fruit of the harvest. The first fruit is a symbol of Jesus (1 Cor 15:20). This seremony was a symbol of the ressurrection of Jesus and it came on the third day after the slaugtering of the lamb, just like Jesus was being ressurrected on the third day.
3. The second feast was the Pentecost/ feast of weeks which came seven weeks after the day of the wave sheaf. The pentecost in Acts 1 came seven weeks from the day of the ressurrection of Jesus, and that marked the beginning of Jesus minstry in the Holy place.
He then annointed the heavenly sanctuary, which was the antitype of the annointing that took place before the earthly tabernacle was taken in use (Exo 40). God's people were also annointed; by the Holy Spirit (Acts 1).
4. The third feast was the Day of Atonment and it came in the end of the year (the sacred). This feast was clearly linked to what took place in the most holy place. The Day of Atonement symbolizes the final atonement taking place at the end time. The prophecy that takes us to this time is Dan 7,8,9. In ch. 7, Daniel sees the judgment, and it is possible to place the judgement roughly in time. It was going to start shortly after the 1260 days (v.25.26). In Daniel 8 and 9 we get to know the date more exactly; 2300 years from the time when the 70 weeks started. (457 BC + 2300y. = 1844). Further it was going to happen on the 10th day in the 7th month. Therefore around the date 10-22-1844. By this we have placed also the fullfilment of this feast in the history. Again done by the prophecy in Dan 8+9.
We see from this how the different feasts points to Jesus' activity in the sanctuary and reveal his ministry there. The feasts combined with prophecy makes it also possible to follow Jesus through the sanctuary, in time.
I wish that this has been useful to someone, and I hope it was not presented in a too confusing manner. Personally, these aspects from the sanctuary has strengthen my faith in God and I hope others find evidences of an almighty God in this topic.
Allan F
[This message has been edited by Allan F (edited 11-16-2001).]
Post by: jherbertthompson on January 04, 2002, 05:08:00 PM
Personally Brother Allan, I find it difficult to move through your formula posted here on 11-16-01. I have worked through it as best I am able to find for one thing that there are, according to Leviticus 23, seven (7) festival Sabbaths not four (4).
Since the Passover is most commonly thrashed by Seventh-Day-Adventist's, by introductory thought let me start there.
Throughtout Holy Script, I find numerous texts regarding the "purging" of any number of things. All 0f which are in fact symbols, or metaphors to the cleansing of the heart on man on a personal basis. The ordinance of the Passover was designed to call the minds of Isreal (and our own) from their world-loving interests, from their cares and anxieties in relation to temporal concerns, and to review the works of God.
We, like Israel of old are to call to mind His miracles, His mercies and loving-kindness toward us. I do not personally need look to far to see His mercies. Last year on at least three occassions I saw God working to put in place an answer to my prayers, before I had even prayed. So this He has done that I might trust Him in even the smallest of things.
I'd like to challenge TRO members in this thread to look at EGW's commentary regarding a similar theme in Education, pp. 84-96.
May God richly bless all of us this next year as we each, in his turn, endeavor to finish the work which is left to do...
Your brother in Christ,
jimthompson
Post by: Richard Myers on January 04, 2002, 06:04:00 PM
Richard
Post by: Herb Thomas on March 16, 2002, 07:04:00 PM
Attempt made.
Post by: Liane H on March 16, 2002, 08:04:00 PM
With the growing of my new puppy I have been missing much along the way and found it interesting to see this subject brought up once again since January.
The issue of the Passover, separating it into several feasts has been a long issue, but from my Jewish background this is not the case.
The Passover Lamb, the Unleavened Bread and the Offering of first-fruits along with the bitter herbs is all one process that comes out of the experience of leaving Egypt given by God.
Passover because God passed over the houses of our fathers in Egypt. Unleavened bread, because our fathers were redeemed from Egypt and Bitter herbs because the Egyptians embittered the lives of our fathers in Egypt. And the first fruits because every generation is obliged to see himself as though he personally came out of Egypt.
So when we bring Passover as one Feast, then that leaves the three others that Allan presented which makes four.
We also can see through the post of Allan the application of fulfilment of these feasts through the life, death, resurrection and ministry in the Holy Place by Jesus.
Then there is the next feast of the Feast of Tabernacles which is a whole other issue of in of itself which was started in another topic at Bread of Life which has not been followed through as of yet.
Liane
Post by: Herb Thomas on March 17, 2002, 12:28:00 PM
Personally interested in the "Sanctuary Doctrine" and it's many aspects. It was considered that posting here might be the next and most obvious place. However, due to an untimely call away from my current surroundings, I will only be able to make a short post of intention.
There are a number of "references" to the concept of a "passover" in the Bible. Of course, the most frequently used is that of the Sanctuary [earthly and Heavenly]. Lately, however, it has become evident that there are also other "passovers" which bare mentioning. For instance: Christ at one point entered into His "home town" where He was greated quite un-friendly. Because of this, the towns folk "passed-over" blessing of healing both physically and spiritually. There were other's I'm thinking, and I apologize that at the moment I will not be able to go into any depth herein.
With no idea how long I may be in absence I bid all a very wonderful year.
Herb
Post by: Richard Myers on March 19, 2002, 07:26:00 AM
Richard
Post by: Richard Myers on May 12, 2002, 06:41:00 AM
Richard
Post by: Sister Marie on July 30, 2002, 05:30:00 PM
------------------
With Christian Love,
Sister Glass
Post by: Richard Myers on July 31, 2002, 09:28:00 AM
Richard
[This message has been edited by Richard Myers (edited 08-06-2002).]
Post by: Sister Marie on July 31, 2002, 12:30:00 PM
------------------
With Christian Love,
Sister Glass
Post by: Allan F on August 05, 2002, 01:44:00 PM
For the last months I have become aware of what I now see as a very clear presentation of the sanctuary in the gospel of John. I would like to present what I have found soon, and will appreciate comments. I am not finish with this study yet and therefore would really like to get your thouhgts and comments, especially because I never have heard anybody presenting this topic before.
Allan F
Post by: Joan on August 08, 2002, 11:21:00 AM
excuse me as I interrupt and express my astonishment.
Not having followed intensely all the topics in this BoL sector, would you tell me if there is another topic that has more than this on pages in it's thread ?
Joan
Post by: Allan F on August 10, 2002, 07:14:00 AM
"Jehova is a gracious giver" - The SANCTUARY:
The reason why God told the jews to build a sanctuary was that He wanted to live among his people (Exo 25:8), to teach them the way of salvation. The earthly sanctuary became the centre and foundation of their relgion for more than 1000 years.
In John 1,14 we read that "the Word (Jesus) was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."
In the original language the word "dwelt" means "have one's tabernacle". As God dwelt in the Sanctuary built by humans, so Jesus came to this earth to dwell among us. He came as a true human being. He clothed his divinity with humanity.
What was not commonly known in his time, was that He, and not the tabernacle was the very foundation of the hebrew religion. More than this, he was also the giver of it all.
Until this very day I have never heard of any better gift or offer, than the gift of salvation. The possibility of living forever, many religion claim to offer. But no one presents the gift of overcoming our own sinful minds and evil tendensies in such a way as Jesus and the Bible do.
Allan F
[This message has been edited by Allan F (edited 08-10-2002).]
Post by: Allan F on August 10, 2002, 08:36:00 AM
In the very first chapter of the gospel of John, Jesus is being presented according to his great mission on earth: "Behold the lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). It was of utmost importance that Jesus was being presented in a true way.
The whole nation beleived in Messiah, but as long as they beleived that Jesus was in company with the devil, the belief in Messiah was of no value. What the people wanted to hear those days was rather "behold, the lion of juda, which taketh away the romans, out of Israel".
What many failed to see, was the two aspects of the OT-prophecies about the Messiah: First the lamb, then the lion. First the cross, then the crown and throne. In His days, people beleived that His presence would leed to freedom from their enemies. Today people beleive that his second coming will leed to freedom from their sins. We seem to be no better than the israelites in the time of Jesus...
The wrong interpretations of the scriptures were maybe one of the toughest challenges to Jesus. Again and again He was confronted with misinterpretations of His own Word.
The first step on the way to full denial of Jesus as Messiah was taken by the religious leaders as ealry as His birth in Bethlehem. That time they denied the uneducated shepherds and heathen wise men's claims of having received direct information from God about the Messiah. They beleived that God would first turn to them, who where the religious leaders and the ones who "knew" the scriptures. Their pride in this situation was the first step toward their decission of killing Jesus.
Jesus, on the other hand, showed a different personality and character. As the lamb of God "He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth" (Isa 53:7). "For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted (Heb 2:18).
Jesus, "The Lamb", is the best evidence for
me that God is love, and that this kind of love is something else than sentimentalism, which the word is so associated with today. God sent his only begotten son to this earth, with the possibility for Jesus to choose between right and evil as we do in the struggle with our sinful nature. this is a frightening thought. When we recognize this we see how much God wanted and still wants to do in order to save us.
This gift - The Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world - raises an important and personal question to us all:
Has the Lamb of God taken away your sins?
Allan F
[This message has been edited by Allan F (edited 08-10-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Allan F (edited 08-10-2002).]
Post by: Allan F on August 26, 2002, 07:03:00 AM
The next item in the sancturay was the laver which was filled with water.
After the presentation of Jesus as the lamb in John 1:29, John in the following chapters presents the living water, which is free to all who seek it. The water is a symbol of the renewing power of The Holy Spirit. It is made clear that Jesus is the one who "baptizeth with the Holy Spirit" (John 1:33).
CHAPTER 2
In verses 1-11 Jesus is present in a wedding, a symbol of the union between man and Christ. Here is what EGW writes about the meaning of water and wine:
"The gift of Christ to the marriage feast was a symbol. The water represented baptism into His death; the wine, the shedding of His blood for the sins of the world. The water to fill the jars was brought by human hands, but the word of Christ alone could impart to it life-giving virtue. So with the rites which point to the Saviour's death. It is only by the power of Christ, working through faith, that they have efficacy to nourish the soul.
The word of Christ supplied ample provision for the feast. So abundant is the provision of His grace to blot out the iniquities of men, and to renew and sustain the soul" (DA p. 149).
The next verses tells us about Jesus cleansing the temple. This action had a deeper meaning which EGW writes about in DA p. 161:
"In cleansing the temple from the world's buyers and sellers, Jesus announced His mission to cleanse the heart from the defilement of sin,-from the earthly desires, the selfish lusts, the evil habits, that corrupt the soul."
Before we can be a temple for the Holy Spirit the heart must be cleansed from evil, which is symbolized by the laver with water.
Allan F
Post by: M.A. Crawford on August 26, 2002, 10:06:00 AM
"The ministration of the earthly sanctuary consisted of two divisions; the priests ministered daily in the holy place, while once a year the high priest performed a special work of atonement in the most holy, for the cleansing of the sanctuary....
"...After His ascension our Saviour began His work as our high priest. Says Paul: 'Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.' Hebrews 9:24.
"The ministration of the priest throughout the year in the first apartment of the sanctuary, 'within the veil' which formed the door and separated the holy place from the outer court, represents the work of ministration upon which Christ entered at His ascension. It was the work of the priest in the daily ministration to present before God the blood of the sin offering, also the incense which ascended with the prayers of Israel. So did Christ plead His blood before the Father in behalf of sinners, and present before Him also, with the precious fragrance of His own righteousness, the prayers of the penitent believers. Such was the work of ministration in the first apartment of the sanctuary in heaven." (GC, 418, 420, 421).
To be continued.
M.A.
Post by: M.A. Crawford on August 30, 2002, 10:19:00 AM
"As anciently the sins of the people were by faith placed upon the sin offering and through its blood transferred, in figure, to the earthly sanctuary, so in the new covenant the sins of the repentant are by faith placed upon Christ and transferred, in fact, to the heavenly sanctuary. And as the typical cleansing of the earthly was accomplished by the removal of the sins by which it had been polluted, so the actual cleansing of the heavenly is to be accomplished by the removal or blotting out, of the sins which are there recorded. But before this can be accomplished, there must be an examination of the books of record to determine who, through repentance of sin and faith in Christ, are entitled to the benefits of His atonement. The cleansing of the sanctuary therefore involves a work of investigation--a work of judgment. This work must be performed prior to the coming of Christ to redeem His people; for when He comes, His reward is with Him to give to every man according to his works. Revelation 22:12.
"Thus those who followed in the light of the prophetic word saw that, instead of coming to the earth at the termination of the 2300 days in 1844, Christ then entered the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary to perform the closing work of atonement preparatory to His coming.
"It was seen, also, that while the sin offering pointed to Christ as a sacrifice, and the high priest represented Christ as a mediator, the scapegoat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed. When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty. The scapegoat was sent way into a land not inhabited, never to come again into the congregation of Israel. So will Satan be forever banished from the presence of God and His people, and he will be blotted from existence in the final destruction of sin and sinners." (GC 421-22).
M.A.
Post by: Allan F on September 02, 2002, 04:12:00 AM
In chapter 3 and 4 of the gospel of John, water is still a central theme. The two main stories are about one top educated theologian and one uneducated foreign woman, who both needed the same thing, water. Jesus presented his gift in two different ways. In the case with Nicodemus He goes straight on to tell Him what he needs most. Toward the samaritan woman He is a bit more "careful" (Jesus always does everything in love), as He in a beautiful way compare His gift of life with the necessity of water, and in this way creates a wish in her for this special gift.
Chapter 3
Let us first look at the story of Nicodemus. Here are some quotations from the book Desire of Ages that in a good way exppresses what the spiritual water is all about:
""Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3. Nicodemus had come to the Lord thinking to enter into a discussion with Him, but Jesus laid bare the foundation principles of truth. He said to Nicodemus, It is not theoretical knowledge you need so much as spiritual regeneration. You need not to have your curiosity satisfied, but to have a new heart" (p 168).
"Jesus continued: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." By nature the heart is evil, and "who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." Job 14:4. No human invention can find a remedy for the sinning soul. "The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." "Out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies." Rom. 8:7; Matt. 15:19. The fountain of the heart must be purified before the streams can become pure. He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law is attempting an impossibility. There is no safety for one who has merely a legal religion, a form of godliness. The Christian's life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether. This change can be brought about only by the effectual working of the Holy Spirit" (p. 172).
"Those who had been bitten by the serpents might have delayed to look. They might have questioned how there could be efficacy in that brazen symbol. They might have demanded a scientific explanation. But no explanation was given. They must accept the word of God to them through Moses. To refuse to look was to perish. Not through controversy and discussion is the soul enlightened. We must look and live. Nicodemus received the lesson, and carried it with him. He searched the Scriptures in a new way, not for the discussion of a theory, but in order to receive life for the soul. He began to see the kingdom of heaven as he submitted himself to the leading of the Holy Spirit" (p 175).
In the chapter "Modern revivals" (GC), Ellen G. White points out the dangers in much of what is called spiritual revival in the last days and she writes that there is a strong tendency to diminish the importance of christlike obedience to Gods will, which I guess all of us all can confirm as happening around us today. She here also expresses in a clear way what is taking place at the new birth:
"In the new birth the heart is brought into harmony with God, as it is brought into accord with His law. When this mighty change has taken place in the sinner, he has passed from death unto life, from sin unto holiness, from transgression and rebellion to obedience and loyalty. The old life of alienation from God has ended; the new life of reconciliation, of faith and love, has begun. Then "the righteousness of the law" will "be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:4" (GC 469).
Chapter 4
At last, I want to share two quotations about the samaritan woman at the well. Instead of accepting her way of living and her present state, it is so good to read how Jesus was able to create a wish of something better in the heart of this woman. That is what He wants to do in all of us:
"He who seeks to quench his thirst at the fountains of this world will drink only to thirst again. Everywhere men are unsatisfied. They long for something to supply the need of the soul. Only One can meet that want. The need of the world, "The Desire of all nations," is Christ. The divine grace which He alone can impart, is as living water, purifying, refreshing, and invigorating the soul" (DA 187).
"Nothing that had hitherto come in contact with her had so awakened her to a higher need. Jesus had convinced her that He read the secrets of her life; yet she felt that He was her friend, pitying and loving her. While the very purity of His presence condemned her sin, He had spoken no word of denunciation, but had told her of His grace, that could renew her soul" (DA 190).
Allan F
Post by: Richard Myers on September 02, 2002, 06:24:00 AM
Post by: Allan F on September 13, 2002, 01:09:00 PM
As Richard mentioned we need the spiritual water everyday. We need it to be cleansed, and we need to "drink" it every day to stay alive spiritually. These two functions of water is presented by John in his first chapters of his gospel.
Let us now turn to ch. 4, the last chapter where water and the new life again is a central theme. This post is a bit too long, but I found the quotations from EGW very good.
In this chapter Jesus is at the pool of Bethesda. As he walks beside this pool he can see all the sufferers that is beside the pool, waiting for the water to be agitated. Only the strongest people would have the possibility to be the first to enter the water. How different this is from the criteria of getting the new life which Jesus wants to give us all:
"Walking alone, in apparent meditation and prayer, He came to the pool. He saw the wretched sufferers watching for that which they supposed to be their only chance of cure. He longed to exercise His healing power, and make every sufferer whole. But it was the Sabbath day. Multitudes were going to the temple for worship, and He knew that such an act of healing would so excite the prejudice of the Jews as to cut short His work."
"But the Saviour saw one case of supreme wretchedness. It was that of a man who had been a helpless cripple for thirty-eight years. His disease was in a great degree the result of his own sin, and was looked upon as a judgment from God. Alone and friendless, feeling that he was shut out from God's mercy, the sufferer had passed long years of misery. At the time when it was expected that the waters would be troubled, those who pitied his helplessness would bear him to the porches. But at the favored moment he had no one to help him in." (DA 201)
Let us look carefully how Jesus is approaching this man. I think we can learn an important lesson on how few conditions there are to receive the new spiritual life/birth:
"The sick man was lying on his mat, and occasionally lifting his head to gaze at the pool, when a tender, compassionate face bent over him, and the words, "Wilt thou be made whole?" arrested his attention. Hope came to his heart...Jesus does not ask this sufferer to exercise faith in Him. He simply says, "Rise, take up thy bed, and walk." But the man's faith takes hold upon that word. Every nerve and muscle thrills with new life, and healthful action comes to his crippled limbs. Without question he sets his will to obey the command of Christ, and all his muscles respond to his will. Springing to his feet, he finds himself an active man." (DA 202)
"Through the same faith we may receive spiritual healing. By sin we have been severed from the life of God. Our souls are palsied. Of ourselves we are no more capable of living a holy life than was the impotent man capable of walking. There are many who realize their helplessness, and who long for that spiritual life which will bring them into harmony with God; they are vainly striving to obtain it. In despair they cry, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death?" Rom. 7:24, margin. Let these desponding, struggling ones look up. The Saviour is bending over the purchase of His blood, saying with inexpressible tenderness and pity, "Wilt thou be made whole?" He bids you arise in health and peace. Do not wait to feel that you are made whole. Believe His word, and it will be fulfilled. Put your will on the side of Christ. Will to serve Him, and in acting upon His word you will receive strength. Whatever may be the evil practice, the master passion which through long indulgence binds both soul and body, Christ is able and longs to deliver. He will impart life to the soul that is "dead in trespasses." Eph. 2:1." (DA 203)
What Jesus did to this man, happened on a Sabbath, the memorial of creation. Because of that he was brought to Sanhedrin to answer the charge of sabbathbreaking. In His answer to His accusers it is interesting to see that He claims to be a creator and have the same power as God has (v.21). That is why the Pharisees must accept Jesus in order to have spiritual life. Spiritual life is given only through Jesus:
"And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you." (John 5:38-40.42).
Allan F
Post by: Allan F on September 28, 2002, 10:42:00 AM
In the gospel of John, we have so far looked at the courtyard experience in the christian life. Let us shortly summarize it:
- The SANCTUARY - "The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us" (ch. 1)
- The ALTAR - "The lamb of God" (ch. 1)
- The LAVER - "The water of life" (ch. 2-5)
Bread of Life - Jesus and his Word
In chapters 6 and 7 the theme is Bread. First physical, then spiritual bread (6:27-). But let us start in the previous ch. In the end of chapter 5 Jesus says to the pharisees: "search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life". It is true that spiritual life is found in the scriptures. But not in the words themselves. The main purpose of the testimonies, histories etc. in the Bible is to help us to have faith in the only one who can give us life, Jesus. Secondly the Bible guides us in how to live our life. But without power received by faith there is no real use for councels and commandments that we are not able to follow (except that they show us that we need help). The commandments can not give life, neither can the other words in the Bible. Only Jesus can do that. But the Bible helps us to take faith in Jesus as the only and best help.
Let me use an example to illustrate my point. Food is a vital source in order to uphold life and to stay healthy. Every day we need to eat. If we don't, we will soon cease to exist. But even though how healthful bread/food may be it is only useful for those of us who are alive. If I find a person living lifeless on the ground because of a heart attack, it is certainly not the time to feed him with bread. What is needed is to help him to get the heart start beating and get him alive.
So it also seems to be in the spiritual life. The pharisees were eating bread (studying the scriptures) all the time but it didn't help them to stay alive, as they thought. Why? Because they were spiritually dead as long as they didn't accept Jesus and by faith received a new heart from him.
With this I do not intend us to stay away from the Bible until we receive spiritual life from God. In fact, the Bible is one of the best sources to help us take faith in Jesus. But my point is that if we, like the pharisees study the Bible and still doubt that Jesus can give us power to be made and kept spiritually alive, the Word of God is of no spiritual or saving value. The pharisees taught almost an infinite number of rules that focused on the outward. Religion didn't deal with the inside, the heart. EGW writes in DA 309 that "The greatest deception of the human mind in Christ's day was that a mere assent to the truth constitutes righteousness. In all human experience a theoretical knowledge of the truth has been proved to be insufficient for the saving of the soul." In this way their religion became focused on eating the right spiritual food which included hundreds of unbiblical laws/ingredients of what when and how to eat (see DA 29).
Today we also face the same deception as EGW mentions in DA 309, mostly because of the teachings of "the false prophet" in Rev, which says that it is neither possible nor really necessary to be alive, because Jesus has been alive for us. In this way people are robbed (mainly by priests and theologians...) for the best experience heaven want to offer humans on this earth. But as long as this mindset guides our Bible study, we will benefit from it no more than the Bible study of the pharisees. In both cases Bible study will not help us to become spiritually alive, because "ye will not come to me, that ye might have life" (John 5:40). In the first case both the teacher and His message is denied. In the latter, only the message is denied.
With this in mind we will go to John 6-7 to see what we can learn from the Bread of Life.
(To be continued)
Allan F
Post by: Allan F on October 05, 2002, 09:59:00 AM
The miracle with bread in John ch. 6 is happening in an interesting setting. The disciples who were the ones who were delivering the pysical food to the people, have for some time been giving spiritual food to people in Israel. They have just returned from their first mission trip. For a certain time they have been travelling around, preaching the gospel to people. They now need rest and to spend time at the feet of Jesus to learn from him.
Secondly, the miracle is happening just prior to the passover (v.4). In this feast there was one week where the people ate unleavend bread, which was a symbol of Christ.
Bread in the Bible symbolizes both Jesus and his Word (eg. Joh 6:48; Deut 8:3). The grain, which may symbolize the pure words itself (Mar 4:14) is mixed with oil/water and salt in order to become a healthy and delicious bread. In the same way God wants to give us along with His word, also the Holy Spirit (oil/water) and Christ righteousness (salt). To get strengthened by spiritually bread we need first all the ingredients, then faith to "digest" the Word. "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it" (Heb 4:2).
To live by His words is not something we can do in our own strength. This was clearly demonstrated by Jesus a few hours after this miracle. Soon after he had sent the disciples away, they happened to be in a terrible storm on the sea. As Jesus approached the boat, He told Peter to come to him on the water. This is a good parallel to the christian life. The christian life is impossible from a mere human viewpoint. It is supernatural, and in order to live by the words of Jesus we need faith. As soon as Peter started loosing faith, he got in troubles. But Jesus is always at our side, helping us to walk, and to raise us up again when we fall.
The next day the people was looking for Jesus. When they found him they were eager to get to know facts about the miracle on the sea, but Jesus tried to lead their minds to eternal values, to eat of the real bread of life. In the 20 verses from 6:39-58 Jesus mentions the resurrection 5 times. He tries to make the people understand that to eat of the spiritual bread is far more important than anything else. The people wanted Jesus as their king because he could heal the sick, open the eyes of the blind, provide food etc., but this could only lengthen the physical life. But Jesus is much more concerned about of our well being than to think primarly on our physical life here and now. He knew that the motives of the common people were not right. He pleaded His father to open the eyes of the people so that they could understand His mission on earth. In His speach to the people the day after the miracle, He pointed them to the spiritual food which would make them live forever. And the food was Himself.
"To eat the flesh and drink the blood of Christ is to receive Him as a personal Saviour, believing that He forgives our sins, and that we are complete in Him. It is by beholding His love, by dwelling upon it, by drinking it in, that we are to become partakers of His nature. What food is to the body, Christ must be to the soul. Food cannot benefit us unless we eat it, unless it becomes a part of our being. So Christ is of no value to us if we do not know Him as a personal Saviour. A theoretical knowledge will do us no good. We must feed upon Him, receive Him into the heart, so that His life becomes our life. His love, His grace, must be assimilated" (DA 389).
"As our physical life is sustained by food, so our spiritual life is sustained by the word of God. And every soul is to receive life from God's word for himself. As we must eat for ourselves in order to receive nourishment, so we must receive the word for ourselves. We are not to obtain it merely through the medium of another's mind. We should carefully study the Bible, asking God for the aid of the Holy Spirit, that we may understand His word. We should take one verse, and concentrate the mind on the task of ascertaining the thought which God has put in that verse for us. We should dwell upon the thought until it becomes our own, and we know "what saith the Lord" (DA 390.4).
"The word destroys the natural, earthly nature, and imparts a new life in Christ Jesus. The Holy Spirit comes to the soul as a Comforter. By the transforming agency of His grace, the image of God is reproduced in the disciple; he becomes a new creature. Love takes the place of hatred, and the heart receives the divine similitude. This is what it means to live "by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." This is eating the Bread that comes down from heaven" (DA 391).
Allan F
[This message has been edited by Allan F (edited 10-05-2002).]
Post by: Allan F on October 12, 2002, 11:52:00 AM
In chapter 7 of the gospel of John, the Bread of Life - the teaching of Christ - is again in focus:
"Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught. And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned? Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself" (v.14-17).
I want here to focus on the last sentence. In the kingdom of God there is certain principles that we must follow when we want to understand the word of God. Jesus was not educated in the scriptures after the model of the pharisees. But it is evident from this chapter that Jesus revealed an understanding of the scriptures that far surpassed the pharisees. And the people (+ his enemies..!) were amazed (v.46).
A famous SDA writer has paralelled the christian experience with a life long course in the School of Holiness. In this school we need some good rules, the holy law. In addition we need some good text books, the holy Word of God. We also need good examples to follow, The Holy one (Jesus), and a good teacher, The Holy Spirit.
The teacher is of special importance, since it is The Holy Spirit that made the authors write the Bible. It is also Him that will lead us to the whole truth. Without contact with him, we will not be able neither to fully understand what He ment by "His" writing, the Bible, or to receive power to grow in the fruits of the Spirit and advance in this school of holiness. The pharisees thought they were advancing in the school of holiness. They had the textbooks, the rules, but denied the good example (Jesus) and the teacher. That's why they didn't advance in this school.
"If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God". How do you find this requirement for understanding Gods Word? Do you like it? Christianity has not always beleived in this principle. It has a long tradition for a totally different thinking. The Catholic church, in its early fase introduced platonic philosophy. Platons idea that the society should be divided into groups with the philosopher as the regent, has been adopted by the Church. According to its thinking, only those who have gone through the theological correct education "shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God". For long time it was even forbidden for laymen to study the Bible.
Further, we must never put something above the Bible, neither humans nor organisations. To understand the word of God is possible and free to all men, and God wants all to understand its teaching. The catholic view on the Bible is totally unbiblical. When asked about the position of the Bible, the answer is that the Word of God is true, because the Church is true. And it was the church that gave us the Bible. The church is thus the final authority in any question, not the Bible. This is an argumentation that we totally reject. Or do we?
It is the same situation we have faced from some high SDA-theologians. Some of them can not find it biblically true what we teach concerning eg. 1844. But they still beleive in the prophecy of the 2300 days. Why? Because Ellen White wrote about it and belived it. Then we do the same blunder as the catholic church does by placing something above the Bible. If catholisism is based on traditions and the teachings of popes, or the advent message comes from Ellen G. White, we must not accept it.
Paul in his first letter to the corinthians writes that "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."
What Paul here says is that the two great methods of seaking knowledge in the world today, is not reliable when we want to know Gods plans for us. Neither empirism (experience, science) nor rationalism (philosophy, intellect) can alone bring us safely to a true understanding of God. "But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God" (v.10).
In order to understand Gods will it is important for us to be in connection with the Holy Spirit, by having the attitude that Jesus mentions in Joh 7:17.
Then we can claim this wonderful promise: "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water" (Joh 7:38).
If you are interested in other texts which explains the principles for understanding the Bible, have a look at the following verses:
- Matt 22:29.37-40
- Joh 5:39.47
- Joh 10:35
- Joh 6:45
- Joh 8:43
- 1 Tess 2:13
Please share with us if you have found additional texts.
Allan F
[This message has been edited by Allan F (edited 10-12-2002).]
Post by: Allan F on November 03, 2002, 11:45:00 PM
In chapter 8 of the gospel of John, we begin more clearly to see another aspect of the heavenly gift to men, Jesus Christ. In the introduction to his gospel, John writes that "in him [Jesus] was life; and the life was the light of men" (Jn 1:4). It was thus Gods plan that the life of Jesus should serve as a example for all men who beleive in God. By His life Jesus revealed both how Gods character is, and how he wants our life to be.
In the previous chapters, we have mostly seen Jesus as the great healer and teacher, explaining the kingdom of God to groups and individuals (eg. Nicodemus, the samaritan woman etc.). But from now on the divine love, full of sympathy for the troubled mankind, is revealed in its fullness.
In ch. 8 we first meet the woman who was caught in adultery. Let us see how Jesus handles this difficult situation:
"Jesus looked for a moment upon the scene,--the trembling victim in her shame, the hard-faced dignitaries, devoid of even human pity. His spirit of stainless purity shrank from the spectacle. Well He knew for what purpose this case had been brought to Him. He read the heart, and knew the character and life history of everyone in His presence. These would-be guardians of justice had themselves led their victim into sin, that they might lay a snare for Jesus. Giving no sign that He had heard their question, He stooped, and fixing His eyes upon the ground, began to write in the dust." {DA 461}
"Jesus arose, and looking at the woman said, "Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."" {DA 461}
"Her heart was melted, and she cast herself at the feet of Jesus, sobbing out her grateful love, and with bitter tears confessing her sins.
This was to her the beginning of a new life, a life of purity and peace, devoted to the service of God. In the uplifting of this fallen soul, Jesus performed a greater miracle than in healing the most grievous physical disease; He cured the spiritual malady which is unto death everlasting. This penitent woman became one of His most steadfast followers. With self-sacrificing love and devotion she repaid His forgiving mercy.
In His act of pardoning this woman and encouraging her to live a better life, the character of Jesus shines forth in the beauty of perfect righteousness. While He does not palliate sin, nor lessen the sense of guilt, He seeks not to condemn, but to save. The world had for this erring woman only contempt and scorn; but Jesus speaks words of comfort and hope. The Sinless One pities the weakness of the sinner, and reaches to her a helping hand. While the hypocritical Pharisees denounce, Jesus bids her, "Go, and sin no more."
It is not Christ's follower that, with averted eyes, turns from the erring, leaving them unhindered to pursue their downward course. Those who are forward in accusing others, and zealous in bringing them to justice, are often in their own lives more guilty than they. Men hate the sinner, while they love the sin. Christ hates the sin, but loves the sinner. This will be the spirit of all who follow Him. Christian love is slow to censure, quick to discern penitence, ready to forgive, to encourage, to set the wanderer in the path of holiness, and to stay his feet therein." {DA 462}
Allan F
Post by: Richard Myers on November 04, 2002, 07:56:00 AM
Forgiveness is the heart of the sanctuary message. As the knife ends the life of the lamb, the repentant sinner's heart is melted by the thought that God would allow His innocent Son to suffer in our place on account of our sins. It is grace.
Richard
Post by: Richard Myers on October 28, 2005, 09:47:00 PM
With the multitude of topics in the various forums this topic has been inadvertantly dropped for a few years. Let us continue in our study of the Hebrew Sanctuary. There is much to learn.
Post by: Allan F on November 24, 2006, 08:40:00 AM
"Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life." (John 8:12)
"In the manifestation of God to His people, light had ever been a symbol of His presence. At the creative word in the beginning, light had shone out of darkness. Light had been enshrouded in the pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night, leading the vast armies of Israel. Light blazed with awful grandeur about the Lord on Mount Sinai. Light rested over the mercy seat in the tabernacle. Light filled the temple of Solomon at its dedication. Light shone on the hills of Bethlehem when the angels brought the message of redemption to the watching shepherds.
God is light; and in the words, "I am the light of the world," Christ declared His oneness with God, and His relation to the whole human family. It was He who at the beginning had caused "the light to shine out of darkness." 2 Cor. 4:6. He is the light of sun and moon and star. He was the spiritual light that in symbol and type and prophecy had shone upon Israel. But not to the Jewish nation alone was the light given. As the sunbeams penetrate to the remotest corners of the earth, so does the light of the Sun of Righteousness shine upon every soul." {DA 464}
""I do nothing of Myself," He continued; "but as My Father hath taught Me, I speak these things. And He that sent Me is with Me: the Father hath not left Me alone; for I do always those things that please Him." He did not attempt to prove His Messianic claim, but showed His unity with God. If their minds had been open to God's love, they would have received Jesus." {DA 465.3}
The life of Jesus was symbolized in the sanctuary by the candle stick. In accordance with this symbol, Jesus says that He does nothing of himself. His life is a life received from without. He was as dependent upon the Holy Spirit to live this life as are you and me. The candle stick clearly teaches us that light (a christlike life), requires oil (The Holy Spirit).
In the very same chapter, we see both rejection and acception of The Light of The World. What is surprising is that the religious, well educated people reject their foundation of their own religion, while the ordinary woman accepts Jesus.
"Every soul that refuses to give himself to God is under the control of another power. He is not his own. He may talk of freedom, but he is in the most abject slavery. He is not allowed to see the beauty of truth, for his mind is under the control of Satan. While he flatters himself that he is following the dictates of his own judgment, he obeys the will of the prince of darkness. Christ came to break the shackles of sin-slavery from the soul. "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" sets us "free from the law of sin and death." Rom. 8:2." {DA 466}
"The Pharisees had declared themselves the children of Abraham. Jesus told them that this claim could be established only by doing the works of Abraham. The true children of Abraham would live, as he did, a life of obedience to God. They would not try to kill One who was speaking the truth that was given Him from God. In plotting against Christ, the rabbis were not doing the works of Abraham. A mere lineal descent from Abraham was of no value. Without a spiritual connection with him, which would be manifested in possessing the same spirit, and doing the same works, they were not his children."
"Again the priests and rabbis cried out against Jesus as a blasphemer. His claim to be one with God had before stirred them to take His life, and a few months later they plainly declared, "For a good work we stone Thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that Thou, being a man, makest Thyself God." John 10:33. Because He was, and avowed Himself to be, the Son of God, they were bent on destroying Him. Now many of the people, siding with the priests and rabbis, took up stones to cast at Him. "But Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by."
The Light was shining in darkness; but "the darkness apprehended it not."" John 1:5, R. V. {DA 470}
Post by: Richard Myers on November 26, 2006, 10:42:00 PM
"The Pharisees had declared themselves the children of Abraham. Jesus told them that this claim could be established only by doing the works of Abraham. The true children of Abraham would live, as he did, a life of obedience to God."
The Sanctuary teaches this as does the gospel. One of the difficulties today is that so few teach this in the church. And, so few are seen living the truth. Many just don't believe it to be possible. We must believe what the Bible says and trust in Jesus to do what we cannot do.
Good to see your post, dear brother! It always is.
Post by: Liane H on November 27, 2006, 04:09:00 AM
1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him.
Without works what we believe has no merit to it. It is through works of obedience that we do indeed show our love for God.
Jesus did not just speak and believe, He lived the life required of Him in His works of obedience right up to the cross.
Without both faith and obedience we cannot please God.
2 Timothy:
3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
This says it all.
------------------
Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Post by: ian rankin on February 21, 2010, 12:03:11 PM
This is a hot topic and so it should be. Amen
I see many postings since the one I am here replying too, I hope my thoughts are still revelant to where the discussion has come?
You ask for clarification concerning my contention that the Bible teaches that there was no sanctuary sacrifice available for an Old covenant believer who deliberately broke the commandments.
You write:- ‘This thought has come up before. I have never heard a good explanation of how these deliberate sins could be forgiven if there were no sacrifice made for them. Can you explain your thinking on this, Brother Ian? Thank you’.
As always, the challenge delights me. I will try my best to meet it.
My reply also an attempt to respond to Brother Steve Billiter’s response to my post.
How is sin forgiven?
It is always God’s initiative.
In Old Testament times it was faith in the promise of God that He would provide a Redeemer.
In New Testament times it is faith that Jesus Christ is that Redeemer.
Forgiveness is and ever has been a matter of a faith response to God’s grace. It is never His response to our worth or works. It is always God’s initiative.
Pagan thinking, both ancient and modern, believes we can make an offering that atones for our sin. It is also imbedded in the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church.
The sanctuary sacrifice that atoned for sin was the priest’s offering of the morning and evening sacrifice of the lamb of God.
It was not the peoples’ sacrifice, it was God’s sacrifice.
The individual Israelite’s offerings were for ceremonial defilement and were for the purpose of keeping them in covenant relationship, under the covering of this morning and evening continually burning offering.
It was the mediation of the priests that provided salvation and this culminated in the high priest’s ministry on the Day of Atonement.
Again I draw your attention to the RC church teaching that salvation comes through the church and the mediation of the priest.
An Israelite’s assurance was in being in the covenant, being born an Israelite, being circumcised and being accepted into the covenant responsibilities when he became of age.
Isn’t this true of you and I as Christians? We are saved, are we not, by being born again in Christ, being in the New Covenant? We are not saved by any sacrifice we make, that would be salvation by works. Salvation is only and only ever has been by faith in the Redeemer, the Lamb of God.
An Israelite’s covenant assurance was conditional on the Israelite being careful to maintain his covenant relationship. That was maintained by his attention to providing the offerings required for ceremonial defilement such as touching a dead body, birth of a child etc etc.
His covenant relationship was tested once a year on the Day of Atonement.
There was provision for becoming aware of having unintentionally broken the commandments. Leviticus 4, Numbers 15:22-31, Hebrews 9:7.
But when David was faced with his wilful adultery and murder, Ps 51, there was no avenue of forgiveness through sanctuary offerings. It wouldn’t matter how many thousand sheep he sacrificed, his action had separated him, cut him off from the covenant privileges.
David suddenly recognised his position of separation from covenant protection and did the only thing he could do. He humbled his heart and pled for God’s forgiveness, and for his restoration to covenant membership.
Ps 51, ‘according to your loving kindness…greatness..compassion’. ’create in me a clean heart’, ‘take not your Holy Spirit from me’.
As always, God answered such a prayer and David was accepted back into covenant relationship and once again covered by the Lamb of God.
That is how I understand it, but I am also aware that this is a huge subject with many, many grey areas, so I don’t offer these thoughts as definitive answers, just discussion points.
God bless,
Ian
Post by: John1 on February 24, 2010, 03:13:10 PM
As you know, I am only now beginning to study SDA beliefs and so my questions may seem self-evident or uninformed to most of your participants. Everyone's patience is appreciated.
On reply # 36 you wrote:
"The blood of Christ, while it was to release the repentant sinner from the condemnation of the law, was not to cancel the sin; it would stand on record in the sanctuary until the final atonement; so in the type the blood of the sin offering removed the sin from the penitent, but it rested in the sanctuary until the Day of Atonement."
We read at Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
The blood of Jesus, as I understand this, was shed for the remission or cancellation of sins for those who believe.
The "condemnation of the law," as I understand it, is that for obedience to 613 mitsvot to grant pardon the entire Torah would have to be perfectly obeyed (which is not possible, hence the condemnation -- Gal 3:10) and is why the shedding of blood is required.
Are you saying that the shed blood of Jesus on the cross is not sufficient of itself?
Post by: Richard Myers on February 24, 2010, 08:19:37 PM
No, that is not what we understand the Bible to teach. The blood of Jesus is all sufficient to forgive the most evil of sins when the sinner has come to true repentance having accepted Christ as his righteousness.
We need to go back to the beginning of the sanctuary service where the lamb was offered. When the sinner did as he was instructed according to the law of Moses, he would walk through the veil of the outer court and proceed to the altar of burnt offering. Here is a description of how I see the the sacrifice working in its basic simplicity. Where you question any of it, we will go through Bible verses to answer your questions.
The sinner brings his lamb because he is convicted of sin and has been told to do so. There does not need to be repentance at this stage. Is this true? Now, if there is no repentance, God desires to give it. We see this in the life of Christians today. They want to serve God but have no deep repentance. They strive to do God's will but fail, not having Christ in the heart.
God has a purpose in bringing the sinner into the sanctuary. What is the purpose? To lead the sinner to repentance. How is this done? By a revelation of the love of God for the sinner while is he is a sinner. What is the great revelation of God's love? It is the cross. The sinner must be led to the foot of the cross and there he will be brought to repentance. It is just the same today.
So, let's go back to the sinner under conviction of the broken law. He must take his lamb to the sanctuary. He sees it afar off and begins his walk. What is the sight as he approaches? Is it not the white curtain? What is this to represent? The righteousness of Christ? Yes. He sees the entrance, the veil, Jesus Christ. He is walking toward Christ who is able to give him the goodness he desires, His righteousness. He must continue his coming to Christ just as he is, dirty and filthy. He may not understand yet, what God has provided, but he is trusting in God's requirements and he continues moving toward Christ. He must pass through the veil, showing that Christ is the way. Now inside the outer court, he must still walk to the altar of sacrifice with his lamb. He knows he will have to kill the innocent lamb. He is thinking about the reason why. He is taught that the lamb is a symbol just as the veil and the white curtains were. The lamb also represents Christ. He is commanded to kill the innocent lamb he brought. Let's stop here for a moment and ask a question.
Who enjoys killing? Who enjoys even killing a bug in the garden? It is sad that there is death and it is especially sad when we must do the killing. Now, move up the scale of being and imagine killing a mammal such as a lamb, a cow, a horse, or a dog. A dying horse or dog needs to be putdown to end it s suffering. But now imagine killing a healthy horse or an unblimished lamb. What was God trying to teach at the altar of sacrifice which in type represents the foot of the cross?
The sinner who is ready to confess his sin is told to confess his sin over the head of the innocent lamb thus transferring his sin in symbol to the real Lamb of God. The sinner is told the wages of sin is death, so the innocent Lamb must die in the sinners place. OH..........it is not fair for the innocent to die for the guilty. NO, it is not, but that is God's right and He does it because He loves us. Go ahead and kill HIM. NO, I will not kill the Son of God. Then you will have no part with Him. The sinner yields his heart to the God of heaven who has promised to sacrifice His Son so that the sinner may live. He kills the lamb (Jesus) who has taken his sins away. By the revelation of this love at the foot of the cross the sinner is brought to repentance, for "the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance."
Post by: Richard Myers on February 24, 2010, 09:15:05 PM
The "more" that is involved in what you quoted about sin not being canceled is not hard to comprehend when we think about it. God is perfectly just. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Cor. 5:10.
There are those who teach that God is going to burn for eternity all who do not accept Christ as Saviour. :( Very sad that some think that God would do this. It would not be perfect justice by anyone's standard. What is the truth? Just what we read from 2 Cor. Each will receive according to his sin. That presents a problem if the record of sins is erased when one confesses his sin and is forgiven. The sacrifice of Christ is sufficient, but it does not erase the record of sin.
Again, there are those who believe once a person has been converted that he cannot lose his salvation no matter how much he sins. Not true. Then what happens when a man who was truly converted and had his sins forgiven, falls away and is lost? Will past sins that were forgiven, not be held against him in the judgment? Only those who have remained faithful will have their sins covered by the blood of Christ in the judgment.
Post by: John1 on February 25, 2010, 12:25:02 PM
Two points:
1. This quote brings a question I was not going to comment on when I first read it, however, you say Jesus is both the "white curtain" and the "lamb."
At Jesus' physical death that same curtain was ripped in two (Matt 27:51) by God, signifying a new way had been provided to enter the temple for forgiveness of sins (correct?). How then can this curtain reference Jesus? We might suppose that God replaced the "curtain" with the "door" -- with Jesus (John 10:27) symbolically -- but otherwise I see no way this is consistent, as our teachings must always be.
This is part of my concern with these types of interpretative teachings. Clearly there are biblical "types", "foreshadows" and so on (Abraham offering Isaac was a foreshadowing of HaShem offering Y'shua etc.), however our understandings of "types" must always be consistent with all the scriptures, otherwise we can easily get into man's wisdom rather than God's.
2. Your comment that I had requested clarification on was: "The blood of Christ, while it was to release the repentant sinner from the condemnation of the law, was not to cancel the sin; it would stand on record in the sanctuary until the final atonement; so in the type the blood of the sin offering removed the sin from the penitent, but it rested in the sanctuary until the Day of Atonement."
Do you agree with my understanding of what the "condemnation of the law" means?
The "condemnation of the law," as I understand it, is that for obedience to 613 mitsvot to grant pardon the entire Torah would have to be perfectly obeyed (which is not possible, hence the condemnation -- Gal 3:10) and is why the shedding of blood is required.
Your comment included the phrase: "... until the final atonement"
I only see one atonement in the New Testament:
Hebrews 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
As I read it, Y'shua offered his sacrifice and then "sat down" with the words: It is finished (John 19:30). He did not add, "for now." What is the "final atonement" if not what he did on the cross? Are there New Testament references that he did not complete his work at Calvary? This is partly why the sanctuary teaching is so troubling to me.
Neither we nor the Jews (who used the Earthly temple) were/are "saved" merely by 'seeing the curtain" -- or by having an intellectual understanding that Jesus is our sin propitiation (or in the case of the Jews, that forgiveness lies beyond the curtain in the sacrifices). We are "saved," to use the temple analogy, when the lamb is actually sacrificed and the blood is actually offered to God on our behalf (which is to say in terms of the New Covenant, when we personally accept Jesus' offering as the atonement for our sins). Once that sacrifice is made (or accepted) our sins are:
Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
... from that point. Is this not correct?
One of the things that makes Protestant Christianity (and the teachings of Y'shua) unique among the religions is found here:
I John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
As Believers we can KNOW that we HAVE (both present tenses) eternal (unending) life. If the blood of Y'shua does not absolutely cancel our sins until 1844 or later then those living prior to those events could not have known for absolute certainty that their sins had been forgiven nor can we until our deaths. We can only hope or have faith, but will not know for certain. And again,
Luke 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
"Are forgiven" (present tense).
Once more (although there are many)
Romans 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
My understanding is that once a person accepts Y'shua as their once and forever sin atonement God no longer imputes sin to them, their sins "are" (present tense) covered by the offered blood. This is what makes the reforms of Y'shua unique among the world's religions. As Believers we can know for an absolutely certainty that we have eternal life right now and for ever. No other religion teaches this. The question of our salvation is resolved. The SDA sanctuary teachings, as I understand them, removes this certainty, this "blessed assurance."
This is one of my main difficulties with these teachings. The "Law of Grace" was in some ways patterned after the temple sacrifices, however as Paul scorns:
Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
Even under the 613 commandments of the Torah forgiveness was really due only to God's Grace (Micah 6:6-8). Under the New Covenant this is clarified as we are specifically told this (as recorded at Ephesians 2:8,9 and elsewhere).
The very act of approaching the Temple (or Y'shua) for forgiveness is an act of repentance. Metanoia or repentance refers not to actions or sacrifices but to compunction, to a sense of personal guilt. That conviction leads us to reformation of previous misdeeds as we are made 'God's workers in Christ Jesus." However we make these reformations because we are forgiven, not to be forgiven. As we take that first step and approach the temple of Y'shua "just as we are" God grants us His grace by which we are saved, and so even that faith and initial repentance is not of ourselves but a gift of God, lest we might boast (Eph 2:8,9). We don't even provide the sacrifice!
Again, I look forward to your thoughts
Post by: John1 on February 25, 2010, 05:21:59 PM
Taking it one step further: What will be placed on Satan will be the sins of every person who has ever lived, confessed, repented of or NOT. He will carry the burden of all. We on the other hand carry only our own and any sins that we have caused others to do. But Satan will be held in judgment and passed sentence for ALL. <P>Jesus blood covers every sin, repented of or not, the High Priest confessed all the sins and placed them on the scapegoat. The High Priest has no way of knowing which had been repented of, all he could do was place ALL the sins on the scapegoat. It is only if that person lived to the next atonement is it know if his sins had been repented of. As it will be on the day of judgment, we will not know who is saved or who is lost. Only the Father knows. <P>Liane
What?
Is this official SDA doctrine?
The sins of the whole world on placed on Jesus as the lamb of God, not on Satan.
I John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Is there any scripture saying sins are placed on Satan?
Also, as I noted in my previous reply,
I John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
As Believers we have assurance that we have eternal life. There is absolute certainty.
What am I missing? You folks don't actually believe Satan is our sin bearer?
Post by: Richard Myers on February 25, 2010, 07:48:18 PM
Jesus is the sin bearer. He suffered for every sin that every person who lived or will live did. There is more to the story there always is. Each will suffer on account of their sins IF they are not covered by the blood of Christ. Unconfessed sins and unforsaken sins are not covered by Christ's blood. Satan, like unrepentant sinners will suffer for each sin he is responsible for. That is another story. I am and have been working on a reply to your first post. Let me finish it and I will post it. If we begin at the beginning, when we get to the end, it will make sense. We need a solid foundation. That foundation is Christ Jesus.
Post by: John1 on February 25, 2010, 08:36:48 PM
Not to jump the gun... but following this line of thought I did some research and found the following that seems to confirm what was stated. Again it seems as though most of my issues with the SDA revolve around the Sanctuary teachings, in this case with the "Investigative Judgment" teachings. Ms White wrote:
"... When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty" (The Great Controversy p. 422). -- http://www.whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc23.html
This is very unbiblical and credits Satan, at least partially, with our salvation! Has the SDA church dropped this teaching then?
Some things may become clear, but if this is the teaching it is biblically unsupportable and denies the efficacy of Jesus' atonement.
I await your replies.
Thanks again for the time you are putting into this.
Post by: Richard Myers on February 25, 2010, 09:20:29 PM
Thanks Richard,
Two points:
1. This quote brings a question I was not going to comment on when I first read it, however, you say Jesus is both the "white curtain" and the "lamb."
At Jesus' physical death that same curtain was ripped in two (Matt 27:51) by God, signifying a new way had been provided to enter the temple for forgiveness of sins (correct?). How then can this curtain reference Jesus? We might suppose that God replaced the "curtain" with the "door" -- with Jesus (John 10:27) symbolically -- but otherwise I see no way this is consistent, as our teachings must always be.
This is part of my concern with these types of interpretative teachings. Clearly there are biblical "types", "foreshadows" and so on (Abraham offering Isaac was a foreshadowing of HaShem offering Y'shua etc.), however our understandings of "types" must always be consistent with all the scriptures, otherwise we can easily get into man's wisdom rather than God's.
Yes, I agree, the types and shadows must be consistent with Scripture. If I could ask a favor, Brother John, we are not fluent in either Greek or Hebrew. Our studies are from the Bible, mine and most here from the KJV. When the Greek and Hebrew are brought into a discussion, we are not in a position to accept or reject what is offered, not being fluent in either language. Thank you for considering our handicap. :)
How can Jesus be represented by the veil in the Hebrew Sanctuary? If we begin with the very simple idea that God was teaching the plan of salvation through the sanctuary and its services, then we begin to look for the meaning of the symbolism being used. The Lamb is a good example. How do we know the Lamb is Jesus? John the Baptist did not know that the Lamb had to die. Such a deception!
When the sinner brought his lamb to the sanctuary, there was only ONE way in, it was through the outer veil. Some may not see a shadow in this, but it surely it there. If salvation was to be found in the sanctuary, then how can one be wrong in saying that the only way to enter into salvation is through the only door, Jesus Christ? There are not multiple paths to God, Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life!
Jesus says "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber." God was very specific about where the lamb was to be sacrificed. There was only one place and only one door. To do otherwise was prohibited. Jesus went on to say "He that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep." Christ is both the door and the shepherd. He enters in by Himself. It is through His own sacrifice that He becomes the shepherd of the sheep. "To Him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear His voice: and He calleth His own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when He putteth forth His own sheep, He goeth before them, and the sheep follow Him: for they know His voice."
Post by: Wally on February 26, 2010, 05:42:30 AM
K thanks Richard.
Not to jump the gun... but following this line of thought I did some research and found the following that seems to confirm what was stated. Again it seems as though most of my issues with the SDA revolve around the Sanctuary teachings, in this case with the "Investigative Judgment" teachings. Ms White wrote:Quote"... When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty" (The Great Controversy p. 422). -- http://www.whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc23.html
This is very unbiblical and credits Satan, at least partially, with our salvation! Has the SDA church dropped this teaching then?
Some things may become clear, but if this is the teaching it is biblically unsupportable and denies the efficacy of Jesus' atonement.
I await your replies.
Thanks again for the time you are putting into this.
I hope this will help some. The Lord's goat was was offered for a sin offering (Lev. 16:9). This obviously represented Christ. The scapegoat was not killed, but all the sins of those who were forgiven (the children of Israel, representing those who have received Christ's righteousness), were placed on the head of the scapegoat (Lev. 16:21), which I repeat, was not sacrificed. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. The scapegoat, therefore, cannot represent Christ, as some believe. It is only fitting that Satan, who led everyone into sin, should suffer more because of that. He is not paying any penalty for our sins ins the sense that Jesus did, but he received greater punishment because of his role in instigating sin. This in no way denies the efficacy of what Christ did at the cross. It was that which secured our salvation. Satan does not pay (he gets no credit for any part of our salvation) for our sins in way that Jesus did, but he suffers greater punishment for having caused us to sin.
I hope that clarifies it somewhat.
Post by: Richard Myers on February 26, 2010, 07:54:13 AM
K thanks Richard.
Not to jump the gun... but following this line of thought I did some research and found the following that seems to confirm what was stated. Again it seems as though most of my issues with the SDA revolve around the Sanctuary teachings,
Brother John, we are happy to study the sanctuary with you, but we must begin at the beginning. You are misunderstanding what you are reading.
in this case with the "Investigative Judgment" teachings. Ms White wrote:Quote"... When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty" (The Great Controversy p. 422). -- http://www.whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc23.html
This is very unbiblical and credits Satan, at least partially, with our salvation! Has the SDA church dropped this teaching then?
Brother Wally has answered your concern. There is no intent in that statement you quote to express any portion of salvation to satan. If you understood the sanctuary and its services, you would understand what Brother Wally has shared. The statement you quote is true. It has to do with judgment, not salvation. Satan will suffer just as any other sinner will. He is the father of sin and therefore will suffer more than any other.
Some things may become clear, but if this is the teaching it is biblically unsupportable and denies the efficacy of Jesus' atonement.
The statement is a true representation of what the Seventh-day Adventist Church believes and teaches. It is Biblical. Rather that come to a premature conclusion at to the truth of the statement before an explanation is given, you need to respect our desire to work with you without bringing such a serious charge against the church. We are here to entertain questions, but not charges against the church or its teachings.
We have a broad spectrum of people reading and participating in the various discussions here. Many have not studied into this subject and have no way of knowing what is truth. Your words can cause some to lose faith in our teachings even though they are without merit.
Have you considered the post I made regarding Jesus being the door? You objected to this also. Is my reply satisfactory? Can you see that Jesus can be the "door" that all must enter through if they are to be saved?
Post by: John1 on February 26, 2010, 02:28:17 PM
How can Jesus be represented by the veil in the Hebrew Sanctuary? If we begin with the very simple idea that God was teaching the plan of salvation through the sanctuary and its services, then we begin to look for the meaning of the symbolism being used.
We are told that the Torah ("the Law") is our school master (Gal 3:24) and so certainly there is much for us to learn, however to what degree is the B'rit Hadashah (New Covenant) to be understood by the Hebrew Sanctuary rites? Are there any scriptures advising us to interpret the Good News from the Temple rites? None that I am aware. Clearly not entirely, because Y'shua was not sacrificed in the temple (as demanded of blood sacrifices in the sanctuary rites) but at Golgoltha, a place unclean. We are told:
Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
We are no longer under a schoolmaster.
The degree of emphasis being placed on this topic, especially when it comes to the appearance (at the least) that our individual works are being imputed in our salvation (not mention the idea I have only now learned of that Satan is viewed as our sin bearer) causes me grave concerns about SDA doctrine. This is also the reason for my initial question to you (Richard) privately about the verses in Daniel regarding the daily sacrifice (tâmı̂yd means daily or "regular sacrifice" according to every non-SDA source I can find including Strong's), about the final seven year "week" of Daniel (9:27) referenced by Paul in II Thessalonians and John from Revelation 4-the end, etc. I looks to me like this entire train of thought was developed to support William Miller's failed prophecy and it completely undermines the historic Christian faith and the New Testament conception of salvation through Jesus alone.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
I don't mean this as a barb, but as an honest appraisal.
And the section of Galatians (chapter 3) where Paul chides the people for wanting to return to the works of the Law rather than depending on Grace alone. Salvation under the B'rit Hadashah or New Covenant is exclusively and completely through Grace, "not of works lest any might boast." Shabbat, for instance, is the biblical holy day absolutely, but honoring it does not contribute to our salvation in any way according to the Bible (Colossians 2:16). As with baptism, we honor Shabbat because we are saved, not to be saved. We are saved solely through the work of Y'shua on the cross.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now [present tense] no condemnation to them which are [present tense] in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me [present tense] free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned [past tense] sin in the flesh:
The Lamb is a good example. How do we know the Lamb is Jesus? John the Baptist did not know that the Lamb had to die. Such a deception!
We know this because the Bible says it:
We read:
Acts 8:32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
I Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Etc.
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
What is this "deception" you speak of?
None of the Jews believe(d) Moshiach would die as a slaughtered lamb. The main Messianic prophecies speak of Moshiach taking his seat on David's throne, of ruling Israel as Theocratic King, of having the Gentile nations coming before him in Jerusalem seeking his counsel, of his ending the fear curse (referenced at Genesis 9) and thereby causing "the lion to lie down with the lamb" etc. Y'shua did not fulfill these prophecies in his first advent. Jewish scholars did not and do not see two advents taught in the Tanakh prophecies for Moshiach. Like them, we Believers are waiting for the coming of Moshiach the King if Israel.
This again is part of my concern about elevating these teachings to the degree they are. The Hebrew prophets taught/teach and believe that Moshiach would be an earthly king who would defeat the enemies of Israel, restore all of Eretz Israel (the Land promised to them by God) to the Jews (which began to be done in 1948), and rule the world as King of the Jews and overlord of the Noahide nations (as I and most non-Catholic Christians understand the prophecies to say).
When the sinner brought his lamb to the sanctuary, there was only ONE way in, it was through the outer veil. Some may not see a shadow in this, but it surely it there. If salvation was to be found in the sanctuary, then how can one be wrong in saying that the only way to enter into salvation is through the only door, Jesus Christ? There are not multiple paths to God, Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life!
I didn't say Jesus is not the only way to forgiveness. I said that identifying him with the curtain is not consistent biblically because the purpose of that curtain was not the same as the purpose of Y'shua as the door. Jesus as the door grants entrance to the sanctuary to all who approach him in faith (John 3:16,17; Rev 3:8 etc) whereas the purpose of the temple curtain was to bar those who were unworthy of entering. Only Jews could pass through the curtain and then only under certain conditions and preparations. For example:
Deuteronmy 23:1 He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD.
Deu 23:2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.
Deu 23:3 An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever:
To pass through the curtain they had to already be ritually clean and authorized.
On the other hand, anyone and everyone can approach God through Jesus "just as I am without one plea." When the curtain was rent the sanctuary was thrown open so that all could enter. According to Adventist doctrine who enters the heavenly sanctuary? Not just anyone. I don't see how applying this curtain to Jesus works biblically or even according to SDA doctrine.
Jesus says "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber." God was very specific about where the lamb was to be sacrificed....
True, and Y'shua was sacrificed at Golgotha, not in the sanctuary as required of blood sacrifices. The sanctuary analogy breaks down from the beginning of Jesus' work of atonement.
There was only one place and only one door. To do otherwise was prohibited. Jesus went on to say "He that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep." Christ is both the door and the shepherd. He enters in by Himself. It is through His own sacrifice that He becomes the shepherd of the sheep. "To Him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear His voice: and He calleth His own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when He putteth forth His own sheep, He goeth before them, and the sheep follow Him: for they know His voice."
This is precisely my point. This is why we can't just take verses out of context and build interpretive doctrine on them. Y'shua is the only way to God. No debate there. He is "the door," the "Way" etc. However he is not the curtain of the temple, he is the sacrificial lamb.
Post by: John1 on February 26, 2010, 02:34:22 PM
Surely Satan must be held accountable, but where does the scripture say our sins will be placed on him?
Post by: John1 on February 26, 2010, 03:13:13 PM
Brother John, we are happy to study the sanctuary with you, but we must begin at the beginning. You are misunderstanding what you are reading.
Perhaps. I thought that was what we were doing, beginning at the beginning. There is no clear beginning point for this topic as far as I can see however. I began with the first post in this thread and began reading from there.
There is no intent in that statement you quote to express any portion of salvation to satan.
Ms White wrote: .... He will place them [the sins] upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty..."
The one who bears the final penalty is not involved in our salvation? The scapegoat was directly involved in the forgiveness of sins in the sanctuary rites. Without that role the sins would have remained with the people. How does this teaching not give Satan a role in our salvation as the sin bearer?
It is Biblical. Rather that come to a premature conclusion at to the truth of the statement before an explanation is given, you need to respect our desire to work with you without bringing such a serious charge against the church. We are here to entertain questions, but not charges against the church or its teachings.
Perhaps I should move on then. This is why, as I stated at the outset, I was hesitant to post here. If questioning the biblical validity of the SDA teachings as they come up in the discussions is not permissible, then serious study of these teachings is not possible for those who know the Bible and who do not already accept them.
I appreciate the time you and others have put into answering my questions.
Shalom and Maranatha,
~ John of AllFaith
Post by: Richard Myers on February 26, 2010, 03:50:54 PM
You may want to take some time to read through some of the topics here and you will find that this has all been explained in detail. I am sorry that you did not respond to my posts on the Jesus being the door. It is quite Biblical even though you do not see it. I had hopes that we could have helped you at this most basic level. Thank you for your interest in our teachings. I will continue if you like in private.
Post by: Wally on February 26, 2010, 04:38:30 PM
Ms White wrote: .... He will place them [the sins] upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty..."
The one who bears the final penalty is not involved in our salvation? The scapegoat was directly involved in the forgiveness of sins in the sanctuary rites. Without that role the sins would have remained with the people. How does this teaching not give Satan a role in our salvation as the sin bearer?
Shalom and Maranatha,
~ John of AllFaith
The fact that Satan "bears the final penalty" does not make him involved in our salvation. The righteous have already received their salvation; they have been reigning with Christ for 1000 years. They are simply witnesses to his final punishment.
The scapegoat was in no way involved in the forgiveness of sins in the sanctuary rite, since it was not sacrificed, and, as stated before, without the shedding of blood there is not remission or forgiveness of sins.
Post by: John1 on February 26, 2010, 04:54:03 PM
I am sorry that you did not respond to my posts on the Jesus being the door. [/ul]
I did respond to this, in post 9 above. I replied:QuoteI didn't say Jesus is not the only way to forgiveness. I said that identifying him with the curtain is not consistent biblically because the purpose of that curtain was not the same as the purpose of Y'shua as the door. Jesus as the door grants entrance to the sanctuary to all who approach him in faith (John 3:16,17; Rev 3:8 etc) whereas the purpose of the temple curtain was to bar those who were unworthy of entering. Only Jews could pass through the curtain and then only under certain conditions and preparations. For example:
Deuteronmy 23:1 He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD.
Deu 23:2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.
Deu 23:3 An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever:
To pass through the curtain they had to already be ritually clean and authorized.
On the other hand, anyone and everyone can approach God through Jesus "just as I am without one plea." When the curtain was rent the sanctuary was thrown open so that all could enter. According to Adventist doctrine who enters the heavenly sanctuary? Not just anyone. I don't see how applying this curtain to Jesus works biblically or even according to SDA doctrine.
Jesus is the door etc. but interpreting him as the curtain of the temple does not fit what we know about the curtain and Jesus as the door.
Post by: Richard Myers on February 26, 2010, 05:29:56 PM
Post by: Tim2 on February 27, 2010, 05:51:18 AM
Post by: Mimi on February 27, 2010, 06:59:41 AM
The scapegoat, bearing the sins of Israel, was sent away "unto a land not inhabited;" so Satan, bearing the guilt of all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit, will be for a thousand years (the millennium) confined to the earth, which will then be desolate, without inhabitant, and he will at last suffer the full penalty of sin in the fires that shall destroy all the wicked.
For every type within the wilderness sanctuary service, there is an antitype.
Post by: Tim2 on February 27, 2010, 07:29:29 AM
Post by: ian rankin on March 03, 2010, 02:51:25 PM
I am a late contributer to this topic and I ask for your tolerance. I too consider the Hebrew Sanctuary to be a vital part of God’s revelation of Himself and His plans for dealing with evil.
I notice that recent discussion has been on the symbolism of the scapegoat and I get the impression that much of the discussion centres on defending conclusions rather than starting with an examination of the data.
Let me explain. On the Day of Atonement there were a number of sacrifices and these included animals
Lev 16:3 Aaron shall enter the Holy Place with a bull for a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering
V5 he shall take from the congregation two male goats for a sin offering and one ram for a burnt offering.
V6 he shall offer the bull for a sin offering…to make atonement for himself and his household
V15 he shall slaughter the goat of the sin offering which is for the people…bring the blood inside the veil and do with the blood as he did with the blood of the bull
Note, the blood of both the bull and the goat is sprinkled within the veil.
My question is, does the bull represent Christ? Does the goat represent Christ?
In the Bible, Christ is the Lamb of God, not the goat of God.
That day would have begun with the priestly morning offering of the lamb of God. Tradition has it that the High Priest sequestered himself in the sanctuary and took over the performance of all the sanctuary services some days before the Day of Atonement in order to avoid accidental defilement.
Regards,
Ian
Post by: Richard Myers on March 03, 2010, 03:16:08 PM
What are your thoughts on these verses?
Leviticus
16:6 And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which [is] for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house.
16:7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD [at] the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
16:8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.
16:9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him [for] a sin offering.
In these verses I see a bullock representing Christ and a goat representing Christ. There is no offering for sin, other than Christ.
Post by: ian rankin on March 04, 2010, 11:30:23 AM
You write:- 'In these verses I see a bullock representing Christ and a goat representing Christ. There is no offering for sin, other than Christ.'
I read what you are saying, but it somehow doesn't make sense
I have a problem with your statement. I agree completely that there is no offering for sin, other than Christ, but I am uncomfortable at the suggestion that I can offer Christ. The Catholic Church claims that the mass is an offering of Christ, that the priest turns the bread and wine into the real body and blood of Christ.
No offering of mine can atone for sin. Nothing I can do requires God to save me.
The High priest was no more saved after he offered the bull than he was before, but then of course he would have been struck dead if he had not made the offering.
Am I making any sense?
Ian
Post by: Richard Myers on March 04, 2010, 02:06:19 PM
Post by: ian rankin on March 06, 2010, 09:13:23 PM
In answer to my query, ‘Am I making sense?’ you answer ‘No, I am afraid not. You said that Jesus was the Lamb of God. Do you not believe that when the lamb was slain in the outer court that it was a symbol of Jesus being slain on account of our sins?
No, I do not. The lamb that was slain as a symbol of Jesus been slain on account of our sins was the daily morning and evening lamb of God offered by the priests and at the annual Passover service
The daily individual Hebrew’s offerings were a covenantal consequence of the daily offering of the lamb of God, not a repetition of it.
Consider please the following regarding the meaning of the Hebrew sanctuary.
1. The Hebrew sanctuary presented God’s plan for the salvation of mankind and the destruction of sin. The priest’s daily morning and evening continually burning offering of the lamb of God kept open the access to God.
2. The origins of the sanctuary service go right back to Eden, but at Sinai it became a national form of service as opposed to something performed by the patriarchal of each family.
3. Jesus was the essential figure in the plan of salvation and while nearly every part of the sanctuary and its services symbolised Jesus, yet the lava represented the Holy Spirit, the Shekina glory was God
4. The death of Jesus, symbolised in the Passover, was the first and essential act of the seven acts of God symbolised in the seven annual feasts of the sanctuary.
5. The various offerings required of the individual nearly all concerned ceremonial defilement of both himself and his family. It was only adult males who could bring offerings. The purpose of these offerings was to maintain covenant relationship, for only while they were in the covenant were they covered by the daily offering of the lamb of God.
6. There were no offerings for deliberate, wilful breaking of the commandments.
Apart from Passover, the popular conception of a daily stream of lambs being sacrificed by repentant Hebrews is not Biblical.
7. We do not have to have righteousness for salvation, it is by God’s grace we are saved. It will not be till this mortal puts on immortality and this corruption puts on incorruption that we will have a righteousness of our own.
God bless,
Ian
Post by: Richard Myers on March 07, 2010, 09:29:41 AM
3. Jesus was the essential figure in the plan of salvation and while nearly every part of the sanctuary and its services symbolised Jesus, yet the lava represented the Holy Spirit, the Shekina glory was God
Brother Ian, can you explain this more fully? The part that states, "nearly every part of the sanctuary and its services symbolized Jesus..." You say the lamb being sacrificed in the outer court (representing the earth) is not a symbol of Jesus. What then does it symbolize? Thank you.
Post by: ian rankin on March 08, 2010, 11:46:00 AM
You ask some hard questions.
You write:- 'You say the lamb being sacrificed in the outer court (representing the earth) is not a symbol of Jesus. What then does it symbolize?'
I am not aware I made that statement, but I do see the lamb offered by the priest in the daily morning and evening sacrifice as unique. It alone represented Jesus.
Abel's offering of a lamb did symbolize his faith in Jesus. However after the setting up of the sanctuary, individual offerings by the family patriarch were replaced by the priests' daily morning and evening offering.
The individual family head was responsible now for maintaining his covenant relationship and this was done through offerings for ceremonial uncleaness.
These offerings ranged from grain, oil, wine, doves and other animals up to bulls, depending on his status and office.
Could you please give me the bible references you have in mind?
The only ones I can think of which call for the offering of a lamb as a symbol of Jesus are the passover service.
God bless
Ian
Post by: Richard Myers on March 08, 2010, 12:38:56 PM
Hi Richard,
In answer to my query, ‘Am I making sense?’ you answer ‘No, I am afraid not. You said that Jesus was the Lamb of God. Do you not believe that when the lamb was slain in the outer court that it was a symbol of Jesus being slain on account of our sins?
No, I do not. The lamb that was slain as a symbol of Jesus been slain on account of our sins was the daily morning and evening lamb of God offered by the priests and at the annual Passover service
The daily individual Hebrew’s offerings were a covenantal consequence of the daily offering of the lamb of God, not a repetition of it.
Consider please the following regarding the meaning of the Hebrew sanctuary.
1. The Hebrew sanctuary presented God’s plan for the salvation of mankind and the destruction of sin. The priest’s daily morning and evening continually burning offering of the lamb of God kept open the access to God.
2. The origins of the sanctuary service go right back to Eden, but at Sinai it became a national form of service as opposed to something performed by the patriarchal of each family.
3. Jesus was the essential figure in the plan of salvation and while nearly every part of the sanctuary and its services symbolised Jesus, yet the lava represented the Holy Spirit, the Shekina glory was God
4. The death of Jesus, symbolised in the Passover, was the first and essential act of the seven acts of God symbolised in the seven annual feasts of the sanctuary.
5. The various offerings required of the individual nearly all concerned ceremonial defilement of both himself and his family. It was only adult males who could bring offerings. The purpose of these offerings was to maintain covenant relationship, for only while they were in the covenant were they covered by the daily offering of the lamb of God.
6. There were no offerings for deliberate, wilful breaking of the commandments.
Apart from Passover, the popular conception of a daily stream of lambs being sacrificed by repentant Hebrews is not Biblical.
7. We do not have to have righteousness for salvation, it is by God’s grace we are saved. It will not be till this mortal puts on immortality and this corruption puts on incorruption that we will have a righteousness of our own.
God bless, Ian
I bolded the part I quoted. I agree with this very much. It all points to Jesus and His sacrifice. The birds, the bread, the water, the blood, the incense, the grain, the oil, the candlestick, the curtains, the heifer, the priests, laver. It all represents our Lord and His righteousness, His great sacrifice for us.
We have covered a lot of this already in this topic. You may want to take a look through it and see if you agree. It is a most beautiful picture of the plan of salvation and the love that God has for us while we were yet sinners.
Thank you for your patience and interest in this study, dear brother Ian.
Post by: ian rankin on March 08, 2010, 08:36:10 PM
Thanks for your reply. It is good that we agree that Jesus is the Lamb of God and the sanctuary is God's revelation of this greatest of all truths.
The concern that is in the back of my mind is a fear of people interpreting the individual sanctuary offerings as a means of attaining righteousness to cover their sin. Like the Roman Catholic mass were the priest re-sacrifices Jesus and claims to dispense forgiveness of sins.
To me the individual sanctuary offering did not in any way earn salvation or righteousness.
They acknowledged depedance on the Lamb of God, but the individual was no more righteous after the offering than he was before
Hebrews 10:1-4. The offerings were a reminder of sin, 'impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sin
Hebrews 9:14 the blood of Jesus cleanses the conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
God bless.
Ian
Post by: Richard Myers on March 08, 2010, 09:31:06 PM
We agree on the danger of thinking that there is any merit in any sacrifice other than the sacrifice of Christ that atones for our sins. :) My understanding is that all of the sacrifices were "symbolic" of the sacrifice of Christ. There was no merit in sacrificing anything. None whatsoever. Obdedience was good, but it did not bring salvation. Only accepting the sacrifice of Christ, accepting Him as Savior can save and change us.
I think we are coming into some agreement here dear Brother Ian! :)
Post by: ian rankin on March 09, 2010, 12:15:30 PM
I couldn't agree more
God bless
Ian
Post by: Richard Myers on March 13, 2010, 07:43:17 AM
Post by: Richard Myers on March 22, 2010, 11:49:55 AM
Post by: Richard Myers on April 19, 2010, 08:24:56 PM
Hi Richard,
This is a hot topic and so it should be. Amen
I see many postings since the one I am here replying too, I hope my thoughts are still revelant to where the discussion has come?
You ask for clarification concerning my contention that the Bible teaches that there was no sanctuary sacrifice available for an Old covenant believer who deliberately broke the commandments.
You write:- ‘This thought has come up before. I have never heard a good explanation of how these deliberate sins could be forgiven if there were no sacrifice made for them. Can you explain your thinking on this, Brother Ian? Thank you’.
As always, the challenge delights me. I will try my best to meet it.
My reply also an attempt to respond to Brother Steve Billiter’s response to my post.
How is sin forgiven?
It is always God’s initiative.
In Old Testament times it was faith in the promise of God that He would provide a Redeemer.
In New Testament times it is faith that Jesus Christ is that Redeemer.
Forgiveness is and ever has been a matter of a faith response to God’s grace. It is never His response to our worth or works. It is always God’s initiative.
Pagan thinking, both ancient and modern, believes we can make an offering that atones for our sin. It is also imbedded in the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church.
The sanctuary sacrifice that atoned for sin was the priest’s offering of the morning and evening sacrifice of the lamb of God.
It was not the peoples’ sacrifice, it was God’s sacrifice.
The individual Israelite’s offerings were for ceremonial defilement and were for the purpose of keeping them in covenant relationship, under the covering of this morning and evening continually burning offering.
It was the mediation of the priests that provided salvation and this culminated in the high priest’s ministry on the Day of Atonement.
Again I draw your attention to the RC church teaching that salvation comes through the church and the mediation of the priest.
An Israelite’s assurance was in being in the covenant, being born an Israelite, being circumcised and being accepted into the covenant responsibilities when he became of age.
Isn’t this true of you and I as Christians? We are saved, are we not, by being born again in Christ, being in the New Covenant? We are not saved by any sacrifice we make, that would be salvation by works. Salvation is only and only ever has been by faith in the Redeemer, the Lamb of God.
An Israelite’s covenant assurance was conditional on the Israelite being careful to maintain his covenant relationship. That was maintained by his attention to providing the offerings required for ceremonial defilement such as touching a dead body, birth of a child etc etc.
His covenant relationship was tested once a year on the Day of Atonement.
There was provision for becoming aware of having unintentionally broken the commandments. Leviticus 4, Numbers 15:22-31, Hebrews 9:7.
But when David was faced with his wilful adultery and murder, Ps 51, there was no avenue of forgiveness through sanctuary offerings. It wouldn’t matter how many thousand sheep he sacrificed, his action had separated him, cut him off from the covenant privileges.
David suddenly recognised his position of separation from covenant protection and did the only thing he could do. He humbled his heart and pled for God’s forgiveness, and for his restoration to covenant membership.
Ps 51, ‘according to your loving kindness…greatness..compassion’. ’create in me a clean heart’, ‘take not your Holy Spirit from me’.
As always, God answered such a prayer and David was accepted back into covenant relationship and once again covered by the Lamb of God.
That is how I understand it, but I am also aware that this is a huge subject with many, many grey areas, so I don’t offer these thoughts as definitive answers, just discussion points.
God bless,
Ian
Well....sorry to take so long to reply, dear Brother Ian.
I am very much agreement with you regarding the fact that God is the one who initiates repentance. The Bible tells us that it is the "goodness of God that leadeth thee to repentance." And, "Godly sorrow worketh repentance unto salvation." The first quote is easy to understand, the second we must look at to see God's initiative. Godly sorrow for what? True sorrow for what our sins have done to Christ and our heavenly Father. How does this come about? It comes when we see God's great love for us while yet sinners. Jesus said "If I be lifted up, I will draw all unto me." So, repentance comes as a result of God's love and His active drawing. The Holy Spirit first convinces of sin, then He lifts us up out of the dust.
Having agreed with you on this, I am prepared to add more as to the sinner's need to do something in order to be forgiven. :)
Post by: ian rankin on April 20, 2010, 02:15:26 PM
I think we are on good ground when we establish our points of agreement as our starting point rather than our points of disagreement.
I think one such starting point would be that we agree on the basic truth of free will of all humans. God is not willing that any should perish, but He respects a person's choice.
The Day of Atonement revealed the true condition of every Israelite's commitment. It was confirmation of salvation for the faithful, but the close of probation for those who had grown careless. Leviticus 16:30 and 23:29-30.
In this, as it says in Hebrews 10:1 'the Law was only a shadow of the good things to come'
We who live in the anti-typical Day of Atonement are not judged by our obedience to the Law of Moses, but by our submission to the Holy Spirit; allowing Him to manifest the image of Jesus through us.
That makes us accountable, but does not give our actions any saving merit. By faith are you saved.
I*an
Post by: Richard Myers on April 28, 2010, 09:52:57 PM
I agree that man can merit nothing, but we cannot do away with God's justice. Both mercy and justice met at the cross. It is not merit that is being judged in the Investigative judgment, it is man's heart that is revealed by his motives, his thoughts, and his deeds. These are not meritorious in the least, they are evidence of his belief in Christ as Saviour. It is evidence of who he belongs to. It has nothing to do with earning salvation. Justice demands a full heart surrender to Christ. If self remains alive, then there is no conversion, no new life, no true baptism, therefore no eternal life. God alreadys knows, but the judgment is for the benefit of all others.
When Jesus tells us that we can know the false teacher, He is saying that we can judge another by their fruits. Fruits are not meritorious, they are evidence of a changed heart. When we understand this important doctrine, all else falls into place. The evangelical "gospel" is seen to be a deception. God not only forgives the repentant sinner, but He cleanses us from all sin. Conversion brings forth a new creature made in the image of Christ. The heart has been purified and the motives are in harmony with truth, the truth understood by the saint at that moment. More than that, the new Christian has each of the fruits of the Spirit, not one is missing.
The Herbrew Sanctuary and its services confirm this gospel of grace. It was the gospel in types and shadows.
Post by: ian rankin on May 01, 2010, 05:37:58 PM
There is so much we agree on that I hesitate to raise a question, but could you please clarify what you understand to be 'the evangelical gospel' that you criticise?
As I understand it you are saying that the 'evangelical gospel' teaches that santification is an ongoing experience, 'the work of a lifetime', while you believe we are sanctified when we are justified?
Am I correct?
Ian
Post by: Richard Myers on May 01, 2010, 06:10:40 PM
Babylon has fallen, has fallen. That gives us a clue something is wrong, very wrong. The wine spoken of is pointing us to false doctrine. Can we agree?
And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Rev. 14:8.
What better to deceive the nations than a false gospel. How is it false? It gives salvation to those who are not fully surrendered to Christ. It teaches that one is saved while sinning. Let us look at your questions.
As I understand it you are saying that the 'evangelical gospel' teaches that santification is an ongoing experience, 'the work of a lifetime', while you believe we are sanctified when we are justified?
I would not say it in that manner, because sanctification is an ongoing process, the work of a lifetime. One of the problems with most false gospels is that once you say the sinner's prayer you are saved forever. But, not so, one must continually be sanctified in order to retain everlasting life.
But, your statement that I believe we are "justified" and "sanctified" at the same time is true. We must add to this that we must be justified daily and that our sanctification will continue to grow daily as long as we "die daily". Justification is the new birth and that means we must be born again daily, or as Paul put it, we must "die daily". When we die to self, then Christ is enthroned upon the heart. If we have Him, we have His Spirit. If we have His Spirit, then the fruits of His Spirit are seen in the life. If the fruits are seen in the life, then there is evidence of salvation. If we love Him, we will keep His commandments. We do not keep them in order to be saved, for we are saved by grace, but we keep the commandments because it is Christ, not I. When Christ is Master in my life, then I am a partaker of His divine nature even though I still live in fallen flesh. Paul says I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. 1 Cor. 9:27.
The evangelical gospel, makes a provision for sin while abiding in Christ or it allows for salvation apart from Christ. Such an abomination!! Giving life to one who is apart from Christ!! The gospel of grace gives glory to God, not to man. It is Christ, not I!! Apart from Christ, man can do no good thing. But, Paul says, "I can do all things through Christ who strengtheneth me." Philippians 4:13.
I hope this helps to clarify how I see the false gospel being taught by most evangelical churches as compared to what I see the Bible teaching. If we want to reach people with the gospel, then we must reflect Christ, we must be examples of what the power of love can do to transform not only the drunk, but us who do not drink, but are selfish and unlovely in character. We ought not make excuses for sin. We ought to go to Christ and plead to be changed, to become partakers of His divine nature that we might escape "the corruption that is in the world through lust." 2 Peter 1:4.
The true gospel has power to not only forgive, but to cleanse from all sin. 1 John 1:7. It is the greatest of all miracles!! Let that be our experience today!
Post by: ian rankin on May 02, 2010, 05:51:33 PM
At Pentecost, the gift of the fullness of the Holy Spirit changed the role and accountability of the follower of God. Our present failure to understand an appropriate the gifts of the Spirit delays the second coming of Jesus.
Heb 9:13-14) ‘For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God’?
I read the statement of Rom 12:1-2 as an introduction to God’s provision of the gifts of the Holy Spirit as providing our means of service, whereby we are to build a spiritual temple of God Eph 2:20-22.
1 Cor 3:10-15 makes clear that salvation depends on being on the foundation of Jesus Christ, but that many who are saved will have very imperfect records.
Post by: Richard Myers on May 02, 2010, 10:02:30 PM
The perfection that we must have is "moral" perfection that comes with Christ. It is not I, but Christ. All of the fruits of the Spirit are in the life of the true Christian. Not one is missing. This is the perfection that all must have to enter the kingdom of God. A person may keep the wrong day, may eat the wrong food, wear the wrong clothes, but this is not the measure of his character. It is the heart that must be pure. Unless a man be born of the Spirit, he will not see the kingdom of God. We must be born of the Spirit. If we have not His Spirit, we are none of His. The evangelical gospel has no such standard. The profession of faith is enough. But, God cares nothing about a profession, He demands the whole heart. " Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself." And Jesus said "Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live." Luke 10:27,28.
The Hebrew Sanctuary had a service on the Day of Atonement. On that day, the sinner was to learn that if his sins were not confessed and forsaken, he would be cut off. It was to teach us that there is a day of judgment for each person who professes to serve God. On that day, the anti-typical Day of Atonement, the books are opened and the record is seen. I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels [as] burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. Daniel 7:9,10. It will then be known who truly had given the whole heart to Christ when their probation had closed. If the heart was fully surrendered, it will be seen as such in the books. The motives will clearly reveal who had the heart. Was self really dead, or was it just a profession of faith? Such a blessing to have the gospel revealed in types and shadows in the Hebrew Sanctuary. The judgment is not for God, for He already knows the heart. It is a witness to the universe that God's ways are just and merciful. Christ will stand in the place of all who have truly accepted Him as Lord and Saviour. The books faithfully record the condition of the heart at the time of death.
This anti-typical Day of Atonement began in 1844 and when it is completed, the sanctuary in heaven will be cleansed from the stain of sin.The sins of the saints will be blotted out of the books forever. Then Jesus will leave the heavenly sanctuary and there will be no more forgiveness of sin. Those living saints will sin no more. They will live without a mediator. This is what the Bible teaches in both the Old and the New Testaments. The Sanctuary and its services pointed forward to the cross and the ministration of Jesus in the heavenly sanctuary.
Post by: ian rankin on May 03, 2010, 09:59:23 PM
I am uncomfortable though with your reference to an evil ‘evangelical gospel’. I have no question that you could easily find groups calling themselves evangelical who have the sort of beliefs you reject, but I question its use as a blanket term.
I have no question that there is an investigative judgement, but I believe we need to look into this more closely. For example I would appreciate your comments on the following verses.
John 5:24 ‘Truly,truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life and does not come into judgement but has passed out of death into life’
Rev 22:12 ‘Behold I am coming quickly and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done’. See also Jer 17:10, Is 40:10, 2 Cor 5:10, 1 Cor 3:10-15. See also Jesus parable of the servants and the talents. My question is that these cannot be references to eternal life, because eternal life is a gift, not a reward.
Post by: Richard Myers on May 03, 2010, 10:21:35 PM
Your Scripture verses do not appear to contradict what I have presented. Do you see that they may?
Post by: ian rankin on May 05, 2010, 10:42:20 PM
These people are not condemned for holding false doctrine, they are identified by the fact that they are not at peace with the absence of evidence of true doctrine.
The question for us Seventh-day Adventists is what evidence do others see that we hold true doctrine? When they look at our church do they see the image of Christ? Israel was condemned for holding the truth in unrighteousness.
As regards your question about the significance of the texts I referred to regarding rewards at judgement, my concern is my understanding that eternal life is not a reward.
Romans 6:23 ‘The wages of sin ( the outcome of being slaves to sin) is death, but the free gift of God (the outcome of being slaves to God) is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord’
Ephesians 2:8-9 ‘For by grace you have been saved through faith: and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no man may boast’.
Once saved always saved is a heresy, but a heresy is a perversion of a truth. The truth in this case is that we can be lost and once lost there is no further opportunity of salvation.
The question I have is, what do you make of Jesus statement in Revelation 22:12 ‘Behold I am coming quickly and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.’
In 2 Cor 5:10 Paul makes a similar statement.
As I said, I understand the bible to clearly say that eternal life is a gift, not a reward.
What then is Jesus and Paul referring to?
Post by: Tim2 on May 06, 2010, 05:51:16 AM
I'm sure this is only a partial answer. After the sealing, we don't have a Mediator. But we have been pronounced holy and righteous still. This is because we have made it a habit now, during these final minutes of probation, to walk in the Spirit (not according to the flesh).
Post by: ian rankin on May 06, 2010, 08:53:15 PM
You write:- ‘Jesus gave us the types in the Hebrew Sanctuary to show that "continual" human effort combined with a continual pleading by our Mediator of His divine, infinitely perfect merit (blood), brings the repentant sinner a complete salvation that is wholly undeserved. Therefore, it is a gift. Praise God!! But beyond this, we are asked to unselfishly work and to sacrifice for souls. This effort, though required for our own growth, blessing and salvation, is a reward in addition to the gift of eternal life.’
Maybe you did not intend to say it, but your statement says that the merit of Jesus’ blood is not sufficient for my salvation. Your statement says that to be saved I have to add my human effort to the merits of His blood.
That is the Roman Catholic teaching (and it is also Mormon teaching) that Luther and the Reformers fought against. The Reformer’s belief is embodied in their slogan of Scripture alone, grace alone.
You state that the types of the Hebrew sanctuary show that continual human effort combined with a continual pleading by our Mediator brings a complete salvation.
What the Hebrew sanctuary showed was that the Israelite depended on the morning and evening sacrifice of the Lamb of God and to have that covering he offered the appropriate offerings to cover his and his family’s ceremonial defilement and keep his covenant status.
The reward, as you state, is beyond this.
In the parable of the servants and the talents Matthew 25:14-30, the lord distributed the talents to each according to his own ability v15.
In COL p362 we are told ‘We shall individually be held responsible for doing one jot less than we have ability to do. The Lord measures with exactness every possibility for service. The unused capabilities are as much brought into account as are those that are improved. For all that we might become through the right use of our talents God holds us responsible. We shall be judged according to what we ought to have done, but did not accomplish because we did not use our powers to glorify God. Even if we do not lose our souls, we shall realize in eternity the result of our unused talents. For all the knowledge and ability that we might have gained and did not, there will be an eternal loss. {COL 362.’
The rewards referred to in Rev 22:12 ( ‘behold I come quickly and my rewards are with Me to render to every man according to what he has done’.) are presented in type in Matt 25:20-23
As New Covenant believers each of us receives at least one gift of the Spirit.
1 Cor 3:10-15 We each build on the foundation of Jesus Christ and while there are rewards for those who build with gold, silver and precious stones, while the works of those who build with hay wood and straw are burned, yet they themselves are saved.
How do you read it?
Post by: Tim2 on May 07, 2010, 05:39:29 AM
The fruit of a changed heart is obedience. Inspiration tells us that once the choice is made to follow Christ, we must gird up ourselves for a "life long struggle against inherited tendencies." "Let us open our hearts to the bright beams of the Sun of Righteousness. Let us work cheerfully, joyfully in the service of our Master. A slothful, languid professor will never secure an abundant entrance into the kingdom of God. From the cross to the crown there is earnest work to be done. There is wrestling with inbred sin; there is warfare against outward wrong." {RH, November 29, 1887 par. 12}
Jesus loves His children, even if they err. They belong to Jesus and we are to treat them as the purchase of the blood of Jesus Christ. Any unreasonable course pursued toward them is written in the books as against Jesus Christ. He keeps His eye upon them, and when they do their best, calling upon God for His help, be assured the service will be accepted, although imperfect. Jesus is perfect. Christ's righteousness is imputed unto them, and He will say, Take away the filthy garments from him, and clothe him with change of raiment. Jesus makes up for our unavoidable deficiencies. Where Christians are faithful to each other, true and loyal to the Captain of the Lord's host, never betraying trusts into the enemy's hands, they will be transformed into Christ's character. Jesus will abide in their hearts by faith.--Letter 17a, 1891, p. 8. (To Brother and Sister Ings, and Elder Fulton, Nov. 18, 1891.) Released Sept. 19, 1961. {2MR 184.2}
The effort that we have to put forth is not to earn anything -- It is our duty as unprofitable servants. What came naturally to Adam and Eve before the fall, does not come naturally to fallen beings. Our effort is to "keep the heart with all diligence." To "put nothing wicked before our eyes." To tame the tongue. To "choose this day whom ye will serve." To discipline the body; to run the race. I could continue, but you get the idea. :)
The life of the soul cannot be sustained, except by the right exercise of the affections heavenward, Christward, Godward. Repentance and faith in Christ for the forgiveness of sins are essential, but not all that is required. . . . The Christian's life is now but just begun. He must, as exhorted by the apostle, "go on unto perfection." He must bring every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ....The Christian life is never at a standstill. It is, it must be, progressive. Our love for Christ should become stronger and stronger.[/b]
We have Jesus' example of perfect human effort. He sweat great drops of blood and became obedient unto death; even the death of the cross. Paul states that we have not yet resisted unto blood.
I wish it was easier, but I have to crucify the flesh daily (really more often than that). When God gave what we call the Mosaic law with the ten commandments, civil and ceremonial instructions to the children of Israel, they responded "all this we will do." There was real effort in keeping every "jot and tittle" of the law.
One of the reasons we call the everlasting gospel, "the gospel of grace", is because it takes a supernatural enabling grace for us to even approach an acceptable obedience. Again, all this does not put Jesus in our debt -- it earns us nothing.
Hope this helps clarify what our brother Richard meant. He is usually so much more balanced in expressing himself. :D
Post by: Richard Myers on May 09, 2010, 11:39:49 AM
Brother Ian, it was Tim who posted, not I. But, I think that what he said is accurate. Let us look more closely at our difference on the idea of gift versus works.
How many will be saved if they do nothing? Then, can we say something is required before salvation can be obtained?
Post by: ian rankin on May 10, 2010, 01:30:04 AM
You ask, ‘Let us look more closely at our difference on the idea of gift versus works. How many will be saved if they do nothing? Then, can we say something is required before salvation can be obtained’?
I believe that this is a subject that no doubt will remain a matter of dispute till Jesus comes and I continually seek a clearer understanding. That is why I enjoy this forum.
You ask, ‘How many will be saved if they do nothing’.
Do the words, ‘salvation is unearned, undeserved’ sound familiar?
Everybody who is saved will have done nothing to earn, deserve, merit their salvation.
What separates the saved from the condemned? Some believed the gospel, some didn’t.
How do I obtain salvation?
Rom 10:9-10 ‘If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved, for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.’
Belief results in righteousness. Righteousness is real, but it is a by-product, not the catalyst.
John 5: 24 ‘he who hears My word and believes Him who sent me has eternal life and does not come into judgement.’
The sheep and the goats of Matthew 25:31-46 are identified by their works, but, those works are an unconscious activity, not a conscious choice. They ask, ‘When did we do that?
If you have not chosen to do something, there is no merit in it.
Post by: Richard Myers on May 10, 2010, 04:08:06 PM
I agree with all you have said, up to the last thought. This is very true: "Righteousness is real, but it is a by-product, not the catalyst." Amen!!
But, the idea that no effort is needed to either die to self or to maintain conversion, I would have to disagree with. The greatest battle we ever have to fight is the battle of conversion. And, after we have died to self, we must continue to choose to hold on to Christ. And, even in Christ, we must put forth effort to do that which is right. The correct principle as I see it is that our part is immeasurably small, and God's part is immeasurably great. This in no way speaks to "merit". You are correct in saying that man cannot do anything to "merit" salvation. It is a gift. But, it is not a gift that bears fruit until something is done by the sinner. Again, because the resistance to receiving God's love requires a decision to cease resisting His calling, that does not equate with being saved by works. It is not. It is a gift that must be received. We must come to Christ as a sinner or we will not be saved.
Brother Ian, this is a contentious subject that is mis-taught in Christianity. Justification by Faith is the foundation of the gospel. It is the third angel's message in verity. It was the issue in the Protestant Reformation. The "evangelical gospel" uses this subject to teach that one may be saved while sinning. You, on the other hand, are saying that righteousness, or obedience to the law is the fruit of grace received. I agree. I think the more we dig into this subject the closer we shall come in our understanding. i appreciate the opportunity to do so.
We have a topic in this forum that deals specifically with Justification by Faith (http://remnant-online.com/smf/index.php?topic=765.0). It would be good to discuss this subject in that forum. On the other hand, the Hebrew Sanctuary and its services taught justification by faith. An Israelite was saved in the same manner as a Christian is, by God's grace. The blood of bulls and goats could not save a Jew then anymore than it can save us today. The blood of the lamb was a symbol of the blood of Jesus. It cleansed the sinner and it cleanses the heavenly sanctuary as shadowed forth in the Hebrew Sanctuary. The Day of Atonement was a shadow of the real cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary by the blood of Christ. Let us continue our study in to this most important subject
Post by: ian rankin on May 11, 2010, 04:32:32 PM
I see I need to clarify my statement of my understanding about works.
In my statements I have been focussing on the question of works and justification.
When it comes to a question of our ongoing salvation I totally agree with your statement that, ‘the idea that no effort is needed to either die to self or to maintain conversion, I would have to disagree with’.
For a Hebrew, the sanctuary experience started with being born an Israelite, but after coming of age an Israelite was committed to a life of service. That service brought the protection and blessing of God.
Since Pentecost things have changed. We are baptised into the body of Christ and each is given at least one gift of the Spirit, which we are called to use in the building up of the body of Christ. We are not promised protection, we are called to be active co-workers with God, out their in the forefront of the battle. We have to put on the full armour of God and become skilled in abttle.Jesus will return when this gospel is preached for a witness in all the world.
Post by: Richard Myers on May 15, 2010, 07:39:25 AM
Yes, some things changed after the cross. The shadows and types are no longer practiced, they have been or are being fulfilled. The Hebrew Sanctuary and its services were a revelation of the gospel. A Jew was saved back then in the same manner we are today, by grace. This has not changed. The ceremonial law was to illustrate the gospel, but it had no power to save in and of itself. The Israelite had to accept the promised sacrifice of God's Son in order to be saved. He was to learn that the lamb being sacrificed was a symbol of the Son of God. David understood, Abraham knew, and Adam understood as testified to by his son, Abel. Cain rejected the blood sacrifice and therefore rejected the offer of grace.
Let us dig deeper into this most important lesson God has given in the Hebrew Sanctuary and its services. So many lessons to learn! It is a blessing to examine this with you, my friend.
Post by: Richard Myers on August 07, 2010, 06:35:42 AM
The Hebrew Sanctuary and its services were the gospel in types and shadows. The plan of salvation was clearly taught throughout the Sanctuary. All pointed to Christ, His suffering and death, His resurrection, His righteousness, and His high priestly ministry in the real sanctuary in heaven. The Israelite was to learn of his need of the grace of Christ. The bread represented the Word of God which was made flesh. He was the Manna which came down from heaven. It taught that man does not live by bread alone, but by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.
Justification by faith in the atoning blood of Christ was the all important theme. The grace offered was represented in many ways, but none more striking or simple than the sinner confessing his sin over the innocent lamb and then killing it. God did not desire sacrifice, He wanted the heart of the sinner. The dead lamb represented His dear Son who would one day come and die because of the sin confessed over the lamb. The wages of sin is death and Christ paid that price for every sinner that would ever live. This was the all important lesson that the sinner was (is) to learn. We need to see that God loves us while we were (are) yet sinners. This is called grace and this is what changes the heart. This is what Christ promised to do when He told Satan that He would put enmity between him and mankind. But, we must come to Christ to be changed, to have that hatred of sin come into our hearts, for by nature we have no enmity towards Satan or sin. When we see God's great love for us, by allowing His innocent Son to come to this dark world, to fight the battle as we must fight it, to suffer and die on our account, our hearts are moved, they are changed, and we are given a new heart that hates sin.
We must daily see this love, accept this grace, and then we will be able to resist the temptations that come. Then we can give honor and glory to God.
Post by: Peter L on October 27, 2012, 05:29:40 AM
Gate of the Court, Sanctuary Door, Vail, Curtains, Ephod, Breastplate
Blue=Law-Numbers 15:38, 39
Purple=Royalty- Song of Solomon 7:5/Mark 15:17/Luke 16:19
Scarlet=Cleansing-Isaiah 1:18/Hebrews 9:19, 20
Fine Linen=Righteousness- Revelation 19:8
The Law convicts us of sin Romans 3:20=Blue
So we are invited to come to Christ Matthew 11:28, 29=Purple
So that He can cleanse us of our sin 1 John 1:7, 9=Scarlet
And clothe us in His righteousness Isaiah 61:10=Fine linen
Post by: Richard Myers on January 23, 2014, 01:01:35 PM
Tabernacle in the Wilderness (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-i50ypr8eA&feature=youtu.be)
Post by: Richard Myers on June 19, 2015, 01:15:39 PM
Post by: Dorine on June 20, 2015, 07:19:12 AM
Mediator- An unbiased negotiator working to bring two parties together through compromise or helping one party towards accepting the other side. (Dorine's version) BUT that does not describle Jesus' mediation. Jesus is very biased towards both sides but not for a compromised situation. Because of His love for His Father and for man, He is doing all in His power to win over the sinner to His Father's love. No compromise. There's much more that could be said and I don't do a good job so I'll leave it there.
When did He begin mediating? - As soon as man sinned?
When will it end? - When probation closes?
Notice my hesitancy with the question marks at the end of my answers!
Post by: Richard Myers on June 20, 2015, 08:20:47 AM
The Holy Spirit is leading you. As you were sharing about a mediator, my mind was saying, but Jesus was biased! And, you then said precisely that.
Yes, Jesus does not compromise to get us to heaven, so He in His work is mediating between sinners and God. He intercedes in our behalf. God does not destroy us because we sin. The truth is that the wages of sin is death, not the wages of many sins. But, because of the mediation of Christ, we are granted more time to die to self and to choose to live for Christ. We are granted a period of probation to be reconciled to God. It is the work of our Savior to draw us to Himself and to extend our temporal life until that happens or we are so hardened against the truth that we cannot be drawn any longer. Jesus is our connection between heaven and Earth.
The question as to when He began His mediation or intercession on our behalf came to my mind because at the resurrection of Christ, He entered into the Holy Place to intercede for us. The question then came, but did He not intercede for man before the cross? How was it that a Jew was saved before Christ was crucified? It was in the very same manner we are saved today. From the time Adam sinned, Christ stood between the sinner and death. He immediately began the work of saving the sinner, of interceding in behalf of guilty man. How that applies to the heavenly sanctuary I don't know. But, we know that this intercession (mediation) was revealed in the sanctuary and its services. The work of Jesus in behalf of sinners did not begin after the cross, but the moment Adam and Eve sinned.
And, yes dear sister, the mediation of Christ will cease when probation closes. There is no need to intercede on behalf of sinners any longer since character is fixed at that point in time. "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." Rev. 22:11. The loveliness of Jesus does not touch the heart of the impenitent sinner. He does not hear the Spirit any longer. Grace does not have an effect on the one whose character cannot be changed.
Some confuse our need of Jesus with our need for an intercessor or mediator. These are two different things. When we sin, we need a Mediator that we do not die. When probation closes, there is no more mediation, but the penitent sinner still needs Jesus. If it were not for Jesus indwelling the 144,000 they could not stand in the face of temptation.
Dorine, any ideas about where Jesus stood in heaven before He came to the Earth? I don't know of any statement about where He interceded for sinners.
Post by: Dorine on June 20, 2015, 04:17:15 PM
. "To this end," He says, "was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth." . . . He was the embodiment of truth and holiness. He who had stood in the councils of God, who had dwelt in the innermost sanctuary of the Eternal, was speaking that whereof He knew....But the men who claimed to stand high in knowledge and spiritual understanding failed to comprehend His meaning; and that which had been evolved from eternity by the Father and the Son, they in their ignorance stood as critics to condemn. {SD 26.2}
"Everyone that is of the truth," Christ declared, "heareth My voice." John 18:37. Having stood in the counsels of God, having dwelt in the everlasting heights of the sanctuary, all elements of truth were in Him and of Him. He was one with God. It means more than finite minds can comprehend to present in every missionary effort Christ and Him crucified. " CT 23
Maybe I'm taking these out of context. It's an interesting thought and one I'd like to know if there is an answer for. Maybe it's one of those things God has kept from us for now. I have some thoughts in my head but don't know how to express them. It's to do with the court yard services. It seems that the sacrifices before the earthly tabernacle was set up represented the work done in the court yard only.
I'm afraid I'm out of my element and just surmising now.
Post by: Richard Myers on June 20, 2015, 05:35:36 PM
So, let's look at your thought on the courtyard. We know this for a certainty, that the work done in the courtyard represents the things done on this earth, ie. the altar of sacrifice represents the cross, and the lamb sacrificed represented Christ who was crucified on this Earth, not in heaven. The wash basin represented the need for the priests to be cleansed by the water of the Word before they entered into the ministry of the Holy places. We need to be careful for the types and shadows are very specific. For instance, the priests represented Jesus, but Jesus did not have to be cleansed before entering the heavenly sanctuary. The types involved in the laver only represented a spiritual cleansing of the human before entering into ministry. "The laver was placed between the altar and the congregation, that before they came into the presence of God, in the sight of the congregation, they might wash their hands and their feet. What impression was this to make upon the people? It was to show them that every particle of dust must be put away before they could go into the presence of God; for he was so high and holy that unless they did comply with these conditions, death would follow. . . . The Lord requires his ministers to be pure and holy, rightly to represent the principles of truth in their own lives, and by their example to bring others up upon a high level."
Now, you said something different in regards to not the courtyard of the sanctuary or temple, but you spoke of what was done before there was an earthly sanctuary that was first constructed during the Exodus from Egypt. Let us think on the sacrifices offered prior to the sanctuary and its services. We have Bible instruction regarding these. The first such sacrifice mentioned is that made by Abel who was murdered by his brother who refused to offer the acceptable offering. Well....that certainly was only the service represented in the courtyard which was typifying the death of Christ for our sins.
Let me add a thought. Why was the sanctuary and its services given to Israel? I believe it was because that which had been handed down from father to son had been lost sight of. Israel had been in captivity and when they came out of Egyptian slavery, they were little better than brute beasts. God took them from where they were. First, He had to show them their need of a Savior, that they could not keep His law from within. So, He made a covenant, a very simple covenant impossible for them to keep. It was "obey and live" which all happily agreed to. They quickly found out how evil they were and that it was impossible to keep the covenant on their own, just as Saul (Paul) discovered when the depth of the commandment came to his understanding and he saw he was not keeping the law. He then discovered it was sin that dwelt in him that was the problem. Like the Israelites at Sinai, he had no power to keep the law in and of himself.
With that covenant came the ceremonial law which was also a "law" that they must keep. But, in keeping that law, they were to learn about Christ and the plan of salvation. They were not saved by keeping either the ceremonial law of the ten commandments, but by doing the ceremonial law, they would behold Jesus and by beholding Him become changed, converted.
So, I am stating a truth, Dorine, that because of their reduction to little more than brute beasts due to slavery, they needed the additional instruction on the plan of salvation. What does this say about the service before the sanctuary? Well...we must go back to the time prior to Egypt when the family worship was led by the priest of the family. What I believe was initially given to man was all the instruction necessary to be reconciled to God. The reason why Abel made sacrifice was not because it was the first one to be made, no, his father had made sacrifices before even though the Bible does not reveal this. It would be something if the God of heaven withheld from Adam the plan of salvation which was based upon grace, the suffering and death of God's dear Son because of sin, the first being Eve's. In other words Abel did not kill the first lamb. Jesus probably did in order to provide clothing for Adam and Eve. But, Adam would have been the first human to kill an innocent lamb.
Dorine, do you agree? And if so, then tell me why God asked him do so and what was the response by Adam as he felt the warm blood running through his fingers? In order to better understand our initial question, we must begin at the beginning with the light we have been given. I think we are on solid ground at this point. Share where you may disagree. May God grant us His Spirit as we study this important subject, for His honor and glory.
Post by: Dorine on June 20, 2015, 07:23:48 PM
I want to be shown where I am wrong. I will not let go of what I believe until shown from Scripture I am wrong, but who would want to stay wrong!
Amen! I totally agree.
So, let's look at your thought on the courtyard. We know this for a certainty, that the work done in the courtyard represents the things done on this earth, ie. the altar of sacrifice represents the cross, and the lamb sacrificed represented Christ who was crucified on this Earth, not in heaven. The wash basin represented the need for the priests to be cleansed by the water of the Word before they entered into the ministry of the Holy places. We need to be careful for the types and shadows are very specific. For instance, the priests represented Jesus, but Jesus did not have to be cleansed before entering the heavenly sanctuary. The types involved in the laver only represented a spiritual cleansing of the human before entering into ministry. "The laver was placed between the altar and the congregation, that before they came into the presence of God, in the sight of the congregation, they might wash their hands and their feet. What impression was this to make upon the people? It was to show them that every particle of dust must be put away before they could go into the presence of God; for he was so high and holy that unless they did comply with these conditions, death would follow. . . . The Lord requires his ministers to be pure and holy, rightly to represent the principles of truth in their own lives, and by their example to bring others up upon a high level."
Yes I do understand that the types and shadows are very specific and that is why in attempting to answer the original question my thoughts were not coming together like I wanted.
Now, you said something different in regards to not the courtyard of the sanctuary or temple, but you spoke of what was done before there was an earthly sanctuary that was first constructed during the Exodus from Egypt. Let us think on the sacrifices offered prior to the sanctuary and its services. We have Bible instruction regarding these. The first such sacrifice mentioned is that made by Abel who was murdered by his brother who refused to offer the acceptable offering. Well....that certainly was only the service represented in the courtyard which was typifying the death of Christ for our sins.
Let me add a thought. Why was the sanctuary and its services given to Israel? I believe it was because that which had been handed down from father to son had been lost sight of. Israel had been in captivity and when they came out of Egyptian slavery, they were little better than brute beasts. God took them from where they were. First, He had to show them their need of a Savior, that they could not keep His law from within. So, He made a covenant, a very simple covenant impossible for them to keep. It was "obey and live" which all happily agreed to. They quickly found out how evil they were and that it was impossible to keep the covenant on their own, just as Saul (Paul) discovered when the depth of the commandment came to his understanding and he saw he was not keeping the law. He then discovered it was sin that dwelt in him that was the problem. Like the Israelites at Sinai, he had no power to keep the law in and of himself.
The plan of salvation in Pablum form. Kindergarten instruction. This gives me a glimpse of the magnitude of God’s love and Grace.
With that covenant came the ceremonial law which was also a "law" that they must keep. But, in keeping that law, they were to learn about Christ and the plan of salvation. They were not saved by keeping either the ceremonial law of the ten commandments, but by doing the ceremonial law, they would behold Jesus and by beholding Him become changed, converted.
So, I am stating a truth, Dorine, that because of their reduction to little more than brute beasts due to slavery, they needed the additional instruction on the plan of salvation. What does this say about the service before the sanctuary? Well...we must go back to the time prior to Egypt when the family worship was led by the priest of the family. What I believe was initially given to man was all the instruction necessary to be reconciled to God. The reason why Abel made sacrifice was not because it was the first one to be made, no, his father had made sacrifices before even though the Bible does not reveal this. It would be something if the God of heaven withheld from Adam the plan of salvation which was based upon grace, the suffering and death of God's dear Son because of sin, the first being Eve's. In other words Abel did not kill the first lamb. Jesus probably did in order to provide clothing for Adam and Eve. But, Adam would have been the first human to kill an innocent lamb.
Dorine, do you agree? And if so, then tell me why God asked him do so and what was the response by Adam as he felt the warm blood running through his fingers? In order to better understand our initial question, we must begin at the beginning with the light we have been given. I think we are on solid ground at this point. Share where you may disagree. May God grant us His Spirit as we study this important subject, for His honor and glory.
Adam must understand the consequences of sin and that because of his sin Christ must die. By placing his hands on the animal, confessing his sins and then slaying the innocent lamb which represented Christ he was reminded again and again that it was only through the death of Christ that he will have a second chance. I would imagine that as the blood flowed from the animal his heart was wrung with torment, anguish and unspeakable regret for that blood represented the blood of Christ that would be shed for him. At the same time it was a promise to him that would bring peace and hope to his heart.
I have no disagreement with anything you have shared. I did find your comment interesting about Jesus being the one to kill the first sacrifice. I have never pictured that. I always imagined him asking Adam to bring a lamb to the gate of the garden and explaining what to do but that Adam did the actual slaying. Not sure where that picture came from. Look forward to learning and discussing more.
Post by: Richard Myers on June 20, 2015, 08:04:05 PM
Here is the statement regarding God clothing them: "Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."
Dorine, notice the timing. "the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:" Just after providing coats of skins, they were directed out of the garden. There was no time delay in removing them from the garden. Thus, it appears that God provided the skins and thus, He apparently had to kill the animals for their skins. How very sad. Maybe He spoke them into existence. It is not important, only to understand that to kill an animal is not a nice thing to do for one who is holy and undefiled. And, it was not pleasant for one who cried over a dead leaf.
This brings us to the reason why the sacrifice of a living animal was chosen by God to reveal His love. We are setting the stage to go beyond the foundation, the altar of sacrifice that was found in the courtyard of the sanctuary and was the main ceremony in the family worship prior to the sanctuary, as we understand.
Post by: Dorine on June 21, 2015, 04:27:51 AM
Keep it coming. I thrill at the opportunity to be reminded and learn more of God's marvelous plan of salvation for each of us. From beginning to end.
I like it when you ask questions. It makes me think for myself.
Post by: Richard Myers on June 21, 2015, 07:42:57 AM
Post by: ejclark on June 21, 2015, 10:44:14 AM
The sacrificial offerings were ordained by God to be to man a perpetual reminder and a penitential acknowledgment of his sin and a confession of his faith in the promised Redeemer. They were intended to impress upon the fallen race the solemn truth that it was sin that caused death.
The thought was made previously that this first method of sacrifice was possibly the Kindergarten level of the sacrificial system and then the system given to Moses was more advanced. My opinion is that because man had the ability to have a deeper grasp on things in Adam's day, they were able to grasp deeper meanings with less representative emblems. Kind of like today, we have the "Lord's Supper" that replaced the sacrificial system that teaches the same lessons. But then of course we have the hind sight of the full sacrificial system to study and lean on as well. I believe it's possible there were a few more details in the sacrificial practice of Adam and Able that Moses didn't mention. Or maybe he did mention them and we don't notice them.
To Adam, the offering of the first sacrifice was a most painful ceremony. His hand must be raised to take life, which only God could give. It was the first time he had ever witnessed death, and he knew that had he been obedient to God, there would have been no death of man or beast. As he slew the innocent victim, he trembled at the thought that his sin must shed the blood of the spotless Lamb of God.
I believe this statement makes clear that it was Adam who killed the very first lamb for his and Eve's sins. And as there was a priest and high priest in the system given Moses, I believe Jesus was high priest for Adam and prepared the skins for he and Eve to wear from that first sacrifice. I also believe the skins they wore when they left Eden were white. That is pure speculation of course, but it would parallel what the Bible teaches about the lamb/Lamb having to be spotless and perfect.
This scene gave him a deeper and more vivid sense of the greatness of his transgression, which nothing but the death of God's dear Son could expiate. And he marveled at the infinite goodness that would give such a ransom to save the guilty. A star of hope illumined the dark and terrible future and relieved it of its utter desolation. {PP 68.1}
I believe Adam and Eve and Able had a much deeper understanding of the sanctuary message and sacrificial system than we often give them credit for.
Post by: Richard Myers on June 21, 2015, 10:50:55 AM
Something that many do not seem to understand is that God revealed to Adam what the killed lamb represented. Just because the priests in Israel had perverted this truth does not mean that instructions were not given as to what the representations meant. Adam understood that the blood that ran through his fingers represented the blood of the Son of God who would one day sacrifice Himself to provide for Adam's redemption. Do we have anything that reveals Adam knew God had made a provision of his redemption?
Here is a statement that reveals his son knew that the lamb represented Jesus as his Savior from sin.
"The Pharisee and the publican represent two great classes into which those who come to worship God are divided. Their first two representatives are found in the first two children that were born into the world. Cain thought himself righteous, and he came to God with a thank offering only. He made no confession of sin, and acknowledged no need of mercy. But Abel came with the blood that pointed to the Lamb of God. He came as a sinner, confessing himself lost; his only hope was the unmerited love of God. The Lord had respect to his offering, but to Cain and his offering He had not respect. The sense of need, the recognition of our poverty and sin, is the very first condition of acceptance with God. "Blessed are the poor in spirit; for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:3. COL 152.
Abel understood what Saul (Paul) did not before he was converted. Saul the Pharisee thought his obedience earned him a spot in heaven. Then, when he learned that outward obedience was not good enough, he had no idea how to keep the commandments. He was under condemnation and did not know God had provided grace to save the sinner from sin. He thought Jesus an imposter. He only knew of the one God in heaven, but not of His dear Son who had already given His life that Saul might live. Abel understood what Saul did not, that is why he made a blood sacrifice as we read.
Dorine, it seems to me that God gave as much as was necessary for the sinner to be saved. Because Israel was reduced to almost total ignorance of a Savior and had not been making sacrifices for hundreds of years, it was necessary to give them detailed explanations of the plan of salvation. Thus the sanctuary and its services. But, Adam and his sons did not require this. They were not as brute beasts, to the contrary, they did not need to have things written down since they had not lost their high degree of intelligence. Pride got the better of Cain, he would not acknowledge his need of Jesus, so he would not make the proper sacrifice as did Abel. The sacrifices were to bring the sinner to Christ, to reconcile him with God. The whole point was to win the heart of the sinner through a knowledge of God's great love for the sinner. Adam understood, Abel understood, Seth understood, as did Enoch and Noah. Cain was left alive so that we would understand where sin leads to, the destruction of every living thing on the earth except the eight that were on the ark.
Post by: Richard Myers on June 21, 2015, 11:02:21 AM
Did Enoch need to know about the Day of Atonement, or the second coming, or the 1260 days? Did he need to understand that God hears our prayers, did he need to understand all the types and shadows that taught such things, or did he understand these basic truths necessary for his salvation? It seems that the light continues to get brighter as times move forward, and it was not necessary for Enoch to understand the purpose of the 144,000. The important things for Enoch, the present truth of his time was different than for us today. God has always wanted the whole heart. Enoch gave Jesus his whole heart as did Adam, Abel, Seth, and Noah. They all benefited from understanding what the everlasting covenant promised and how very expensive was the cost.
Post by: Dorine on June 21, 2015, 03:48:48 PM
Richard I like your summary. Some things are just not important for us to know at least for now. I do know that we are counselled to thoroughly study the sanctuary service system so that we will be grounded firmly in the truth and not deceived by some false gospel that is being presented by so many today. I have a book by Stephen Haskell 1914 called "The Cross and It's Shadow". It's falling apart but it is a treaure of information.
Ps. 77:13 says "They way O God, is in the Sanctuary." Such a short sentence but a wealth of meaning.
Post by: Richard Myers on June 22, 2015, 07:24:11 AM
I do know that we are counseled to thoroughly study the sanctuary service system so that we will be grounded firmly in the truth and not deceived by some false gospel that is being presented by so many today.
Amen, Dorine!! There is other important light for our present generation in the sanctuary, but none as important as the gospel. And, yes, understanding the sanctuary and its services confirms the true gospel message and points out the many false gospels being preached from our pulpits and published in our periodicals and books. The Day of Atonement is clearly presented in the sanctuary and if we understand it, then we would see that many in responsible positions in our church are leading the flock astray by rejecting the investigative judgment. It reveals that while man is saved by grace, he will be judged by the law. In other words, we are saved by grace, and when we are in a saved state, our character will reveal it. Thus, in the judgment it will be seen who loves God supremely by their actions, thoughts, words, and motives which have all been recorded. Man will be judged by his works. How many today teach otherwise? Too many!
Here we have a very good measure whereby we can understand who it is that is teaching truth and who is not.
Let's return to our question about the ministry of Christ prior to His incarnation. Today, we know that we have a living High Priest who is walking with us daily. Do we understand that King David had a living Savior also? As did Adam and Enoch? Was not the father of the home a representative of Christ? Was that representation to teach Adam that Jesus was ministering to Him day by day, moment by moment? I don't think we have been told in what manner Adam could envision this. But, King David could. He had the sanctuary as a very detailed blueprint so that he could understand. Could David know Jesus was hearing his prayers then and there? If so, how did he know this? Then the ceremonies spoke of the time prior to Jesus' death? I think so. Then, that brings us back to our initial question. We know that the bread in the Holy Place represented the Word of God. We know that the priests baking it fresh weekly was to teach that God gives us fresh truth as we need it. This was not to be something in the future for David, but it was to be a living reality for his generation, and those going back to Moses.
In other words, was not the sanctuary and its services for Israel back then, not just for those who would come after His death? I am interested in this so that we can see that those living before the cross had a living Savior ministering to them, and had the Holy Spirit. Was Jesus in the heavenly sanctuary before His incarnation? Or did He first enter it after His ascension?
Post by: Dorine on June 22, 2015, 08:03:14 AM
Post by: Richard Myers on June 27, 2015, 10:19:15 AM
Jesus was the Ladder connecting heaven and Earth for those living before the cross, so He was ministering to them. It appears He was doing so in the temple in heaven.
Post by: Dorine on February 16, 2018, 10:25:05 AM
We will use this forum at times for your input.
Post by: Cop on February 17, 2018, 02:56:10 AM
My daughter and I will be starting a study sometime in March on the Sanctuary. Can anyone suggest materials that would be good to get us started. We have the book by EGW called "Christ in His Sanctuary." and of course we will use the bible. Are there other sources you would recommend? We don't want just surface information.
We will use this forum at times for your input.
There are two books by pioneers of our Church that I believe are very good studies into the Sanctuary...'The Cross and Its Shadow' by Stephen Haskell, and my favorite, 'Practical Lessons' by F.C. Gilbert who a Jewish convert to Adventism. I do not know if they are still published by our Church or not, but they can most likely be found over the internet.
Post by: ejclark on February 17, 2018, 08:16:50 PM
Post by: Dorine on February 18, 2018, 07:23:09 AM
I appreciate your feedback.
Post by: thx4mercy on February 26, 2018, 09:33:17 AM
My daughter and I will be starting a study sometime in March on the Sanctuary. Can anyone suggest materials that would be good to get us started.
Leslie Hardinge's book "With Jesus in His Sanctuary" is a 576-page exhaustive study on the Sanctuary showing all details you can imagine and how they point to Jesus. Bill Liversidge highly recommended the book also. A great resource.
Post by: Dorine on February 26, 2018, 09:55:08 AM
Post by: thx4mercy on February 26, 2018, 11:14:03 AM
Is it sold at the ABC?
I would think they could order it for you.
Post by: Dorine on November 05, 2018, 12:09:34 PM
There are 4 things I'd like to share here that we have learned about the day of atonement that relates to us today. (in a nutshell)
1. Type: Lev. 23:27. "It shall be a holy convocation unto you." All were to assemble for worship.
Antitype: Heb. 10:25. God's people should not forsake assembling together as the end draws near.
2. Type: Lev. 23: 27, 29. In the type, all were to afflict the soul, spend the day in "prayer, fasting, and deep searching of heart."
Antitype: Luke 21:34-36; Isa. 22: 12-14. The admonition is, "Watch,...and pray always," and avoid surfeiting and drunkenness.
3. Type: Lev. 23:27. "Offer an offering made by fire," an entire consecration.
Antitype: 1Thess. 5:23; Rom. 12:1. The whole spirit, and soul, and body are to be fully consecrated to God.
4. Type: Lev. 23:30. All personal work was to be laid aside on the day of atonement.
Antitype: Luke 21:34-36; Matt. 6:32,33. The cares of this life are not to come in and crowd out God's work.
If you have never studied the subject of the sanctuary you are missing a great blessing. If we understand the gospel as taught in the sanctuary service we will not be led astray by any 'other' gospel.
Post by: Richard Myers on November 06, 2018, 07:22:54 AM
In 1844 the anti-typical Day of Atonement began. In Daniel we are told "I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels [as] burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened," and in Revelation we read "the hour of His judgment is come." Thus, we understand that there is a judgment going in heaven today.
Satan has worked hard to distract us from the truth regarding the Day of Atonement. We hear very few sermons being preached on what the Day of Atonement involves. Why? Because the gospel is brought to view. The gospel involves God's grace which transforms sinners who accept the grace of God in forgiving our sins. The judgment in the Day of Atonement is not the judgment of God as many teach, but it is the judgment of those who have professed to serve God. The Books that are opened reveal the truth about the hearts of everyone who professes to love God. Their words, deeds, thoughts, and motives are all written down and will reveal who is living in harmony with the law of God who is not. In other words who have been transformed in nature by the grace of God, those who truly love Jesus with the whole heart.
As we near the end, we shall hear this message presented in the context of Rev. 14:6,7. "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." Notice it is the gospel message that precedes the explanation of the judgment. But, both grace and justice are the foundation of the government of God.
In the Hebrew Sanctuary and its services we find the foundation truths upon which the New Testament truths sit. In order to understand the work of our Savior today in the Most Holy Place in heaven, we must first understand the lessons given in the Old Testament. God will bless all who study the Bible in order to know God and His plans for us today.
Thank you for sharing His blessings with us dear Sister Dorine. Continue to testify to the blessings that we all might be likewise blessed.