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Why be a Vegetarian?
1. Because God said so!
“And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed,which is upon the
face of the earth, and every tree, in which
is the fruit of a tree yielding seed,
To you it shall be for meat.” Gen. 1:29
2. Because health is a treasure.
“If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the Lord thy God, and wilt do that
which is right in his sight, And wilt give
ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes,I will put none of these diseases
upon thee.....”Exodus 15:26
3. To live longer
When meat is eaten, it decays in the stomach and creates disease. If meat eating was ever
ever healthful, it is not safe now.Cancers,
tumors, and pulmonary diseases are largely caused by meat eating.Enjoy these recipes, your children will also.
Wonderful Tofu Burgers
2 cups regular oats ½ tsp garlic pwdr 1 cup ground pecans 1 tsp onion powder
1 pkg. Mori-Nu tofu 1 T Braggs soy sauce
3/4 cup cold water
Fry in teflon fry pan, three minutes on each side to make patties firm.Then bake in oven with oriental gravy or regular cashew gravy on top. Bake at 350 for 25 minutes. Serve with gravy, rice or baked potato.
Ele’s Favorite Sunburgers
(I make these for two restaurants in Mexico
In a large kettle bring to a boil 3 quarts water (12 cups)
Add: 1 1/2 cups soy sauce (Bragg’s) ½ cup dried onions or chopped raw
½ tsp garlic powder
4 tsp thyme
4 Tbls. nutritional yeast
1 cup raw sunflower seeds
Turn off stove, then add while stirring in slowly: 3 quarts quick oats (12 cups) Cool.
Use the large Mason jar top to form perfect burgers, spray cookie sheet.
Bake in 350 degree oven 10 minutes on each side. They freeze well.
To reheat, set in toaster two or three times till perfect for your favorite bun.
“Beloved, I wish above all things
that thou may prosper and be in health,
Even as thy soul prosper.” 3 John 2
God bless you, Ele Holmes
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I have some difficulty in your first statement.
You said God told us to be vegetarians, did I understand this correctly? Then, the same God also provided different flash meat to eat, did He not? Is God double talking?Won
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Here is my understanding of what God said about being a vegetarian. When God first gave his people permission to eat meat after the flood, it was to shorten their sinful lives. That long-lived race lived almost a thousand years and God saw that in the sinful condition they were in, this was simply too long, so He gave them permission to eat meat. That right there should tell us something.
Now, in our day when people are dying like flies so to speak at younger and younger ages we no longer should be eating something that is so adept at shortening our lives. And no, God has not changed, but His method of dealing with His created beings has taken a different course.
"After the flood the people ate largely of animal food. God saw that the ways of man were corrupt, and that he was disposed to exalt himself proudly against his Creator and to follow the inclinations of his own heart. And He permitted that long-lived race to eat animal food to shorten their sinful lives. Soon after the flood the race began to rapidly decrease in size, and in length of years." Ellen White, Counsels on Diet and Foods, p. 373.
In our day, this is the counsel He has for us:
"Among those who are waiting for the coming of the Lord, meat eating will eventually be done away; flesh will cease to form a part of their diet...." Ibid. p. 380-381.
~Suzanne~
[This message has been edited by Suzanne Sutton (edited 08-04-2003).]
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Socrates: And there will be animals of many other kinds, if people eat them?
Glaucon: Certainly.
Socrates: And living in this way we shall have much greater need of physicians than before?
Glaucon: Much greater.
--Plato, The Republic
This was quoted at the beginning of a chapter in the book, Renewal, The Anti-Aging Revolution, by Timothy J. Smith, M.D. He says: "As a physician who has treated many...patients--the unwiting victims of self-inflicted illness--I've witnessed the slow deterioration of health up close, and it is not pretty. It always makes me profoundly sad because with a vegan diet, appropriate nutritional supplements, and regular exercise, most of this human suffering could easily be prevented...."
~Suzanne~
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Why be a strict vegetarian? It was indeed the original diet that God gave to man. And if we take notice we shall find that there were no greens for man, but only for the animals. :) This is quite important to notice because the world and sometimes those in the church are fearful that this diet is not the best and even worse is deficient. Well, God does not think so. He is the one who made us and told us what to eat.
Why did God allow flesh and animal products (eggs and milk)? As Sister Suzanne has pointed out, God was sorry that man was living so long. He only got more sinful the longer he lived. The change in diet reduced the lifespan. It was not an immediate reduction to 120 years, but happened over a number of years.
Now, things are different than at the time of Christ when He ate fish. Today, animals are so very sick that it is no longer safe to even drink their milk or eat their eggs. Much disease is transmitted through this animal connection with humans. It is very sad that so few understand how diseased the animals really are.
We encourage all to consider that for their health they begin to modify their diets to illiminate all animal products. Of course it does little good to remove animal products if one continues to smoke or eat large amounts of sugar and oil. We need to make reforms in all areas of our life in order to be in the best of health.
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Thank you Richard and Suzanne, I could not have explained it more clearly.
JESUS IS COMING OH! SO VERY SOON.
Counsels on Diet and Foods explains it very clear: "Again and again I have been shown that God is trying to lead us back, step by step, to His original design.Man should subsist upon the natural products of the earth" "Vegtables, fruits and grains should compose our diet. Not an ounce of flesh meat should enter out stomachs. The eating of flesh is unnatural. We are to return to God's original purpose in creation of man." Pg. 380
I pray the Lord fills our hearts with love, and endurance as we prepare for translation. God be with us all, Ele Holmes
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Ele, The problem I have is although I am still a vegetarian as I don't like meat anyway, But My first wife passed away 15 years ago from Bowel cancer, She was quite a strict vegetarian too.
But what I think is missing that too little empasis is put on consitpation, Although we ate at the same table the same meals she suffered badly from consitpation while I've never had a problem, Of course vegetarians tend to have less heart problems than meat eaters.
I think consitpation has has a larger part in cancer than just eating vegatables.
Sis White seems to be a bit inconsistant in her calls to SDA's to be vegatarians when in another part she says that people who must have meat for some reason should still eat meat, One problem I have is that her writings are used to hit people over the head with.
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Br. Narroc, a vegetarian diet is certainly advocated here as being enjoined upon us by God himself. However that is only one aspect of healthful living as presented by Inspiration. Getting sufficient fresh air, water, rest and sleep, plenty of fruits and veggies, and trust in divine power should be equally emphasized. This total program is advocated by Inspiration as well as by the latest scientific medical findings.
Anyone suffering from constipation or any other malady should study into the subject in all its bearings and implement their findings accordingly. Constipation can be relieved in most cases by an adequate amount of water on a daily basis, plus fiber as found in whole grains, fruit and veggies. Flaxseed, wheat bran and germ, are specifics. And don't forget exercise--this is imperative.
Of course, we should not use the Spirit of Prophecy to hit people over the head! At the same time it certainly is to our advantage to utilize her writings to the utmost in our individual daily lives. Her writings are biblically based and are therefore timely and timeless.
~Suzanne~
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Suzanne, It is very easy to give gibe answers but as one who was as closly associated as I was
A lot of these things you mentioned were part of our daily living. While yes I think they do help they are not the whole answer, I would suggest you read 'The Health Revolution' By Ross Horne.
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Dear Brother Narroc,I am so sorry about your first wife's death, 15 years ago, from Colon Cancer. My father died from Colon Cancer, my mother from Diabitis, my sister had two breasts removed and my brother had prostrate cancer. My husband died in 1980 of Cirrosis of the liver (Alcohol). In 1987 when I opened the door of my heart to my Jesus, to let Him him, I came in on the health message, being overweight, but healthy, I praised Him and followed the health message from the very beginning. I studied for over five years, learning all I can on how to stay healthy. It was not easy at times. I started writing bulletins for the church and giving out wonderful recipes of health. I do not find Ellen G. White hitting anyone over the head with this message, in fact just the opposite: CDF129 "We must go no faster than we can take those with us whose consciences and intellects are convinced of the truths we advocate. We must meet the people where they are. Some of us have been many years in arriving at our present position in the health reform.....We should be very cautious not to advance to fast....." Much research especially from Loma Linda have been done with results unbelievable. I have been to Weimar and Canoa Wellness Centers and miracles every day pass through their doors. So Praise the Lord on His health message and follow the eight steps to health, as Suzanne explained in her post reply. Get a positive attitude on vegetarianism. Remember, every year that goes by we learn more about health and what it takes to be healthy. Disease in animals gets worse, diseases in humans gets worse, you know why....Jesus is coming so very soon...Focus on that for a while. God bless you Narroc. Ele Holmes
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Ele & Suzanne, You both seemed to have missed the point of what I'm saying. While I agree a vegatarian diet is the best (I'm still a vegatarian) what I was getting at is that consitapation is the major cause of most diseases, Auto intoxication is a major problem which most of the health profession put their head in the sand over. I'm not saying it's the only cause but is a major cause.
I quote'Sir William Arbuthnot Lane, The famous British Surgeon, Repeatedly emphasized that he had never known a single case of cancer which had not been preceded by prolonged intestinal stasis' See 'The Health Revolution' by Ross Horne p 244.
Cancer is a disease of modern civilisation.
I never said Ellen White hit anyone over the head what I said was people (mostly laypreachers) have a tendancy to hit people over the head with her writings.
[This message has been edited by Narroc (edited 08-16-2003).]
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Br. Narroc, you have made many excellent points. Forgive me for being insensitive to your concerns. Perhaps you could post a brief summary of the book you mentioned. We are always interested in all aspects of healthful living and should always be learners. The subject requires that we spend much time and a prayerful determination to cover all the bases in our quest for a healthful lifestyle. The purpose of which is to better glorify our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Let's discuss the subject of constipation:
How many bowel movements should we have each day? I just heard a radio program where it was stated that if one has 1 b.m. a day he/she is constipated.
What are some of the methods you use to eliminate this problem? I have found that when I use ground flaxseed every day I can comply with the more than one a day standard. What about 8 glasses of water a day? I am not always able to reach that amount but when I do drink an adequate amount I have no problems. That along with at least 30 minutes of brisk walking each day really fills the bill. Of course a correct plant-based diet is always apropos and is imperative in dealing with almost any disorder.
While this is a subject that many do not like to discuss, perhaps your comments have broken the ice so to speak, so that we can discuss it with the thought of helping each other out in this vital area of healthful living.
May the the Lord lead and guide us in this endeavor.
~Suzanne~
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This an interesting discussion. Many times there is a mistaken belief that when one becomes a vegetarian that they will be healthy. It is not true. The basis for good health depends upon good blood which improves greatly when one ceases to eat animal products, but there are many other things that are needed to be in good health. We have discussed this in this forum previously.
One may have the very best diet, but if he continues to smoke, he will suffer. If one eats a lot of sugar or a lot of oil or does not eat a wide variety of fresh food, the quality of the blood will suffer greatly.
We can go on and on, but the point is simply made that good health requires modern man to make many lifestyle changes. In speaking to the subject of constipation, I find that the counsel that God gave regarding diet is especially beneficial to those who suffer with this difficulty. We are told that if we would eat fruit as it comes from the tree we would be blessed. This is not the case with most of us. A pie is preferred to a fresh peach. Blueberry jam is eaten more than fresh blueberries.
If one were to eat largely of fresh fruit, did not overeat, and exercised daily, constipation would be far less. Many have not eaten fruit so the change needs to be made slowly that the body may have time to adjust to such a radical change.
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Bro Myers, You raised a good point, One of the problems of the busy life we live is the tendancy to go for prepackaged meals, Instant meals, this is an instant world we live in.
Too much salt, too much sugar, too much fat, too much takeways, Too little exercise, too much watching TV, too much stress, too much cooked food, too much yuppy food.[This message has been edited by Narroc (edited 08-17-2003).]
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Dear Narroc,
I too an sorry for coming out so strong....All eight rules of health are so important. I am an offender. After 15 years, I am still over-weight, less, but still over-weight. This last trip to Canoa Wellness Center, I learned just what we are talking about now. They made sure my colan was completely cleaned out and gave lectures on how important it is to keep it that way. But like you said too much this or too much that will not give us the desease free body that is needed for the healthy blood. Thank you Richard and Suzanne for your words on health.
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The Sept. 1, 2003 issue of First for Women on the Go, has this interesting article.
Eliminate the Stress of Constipation
While this subject is not a pretty topic, it is a common concern: One of 4 adults say they've endured a bout of constipation in the past 3 months. And a new study reveals that women are twice as likely to be affected as men. Pregnancy, PMS and menopause trigger fluctuations in estrogen and progesterone, hormones that control smooth muscle contractions, according to Christy L Dibble, D.O., director of the Gastro-intestinal Endoscopy Unit Program at Women & Infants Hospital in Providence. And when contractions in the muscles that support bowel function are disrupted, constipation can result.
Repeatedly ignoring the urge to go (maybe holding off until you're in the comfort of your own bathroom) can impair the relaxation reflex of the anal-rectal muscles, warns Henry Parkman, MD., a gastroenterologist at Temple Univ. School of Medicine in Philadelphia. When these muscles are tight, it is difficult for the body to release stool, which results in constipation.--adapted.
The article then proceeds to tell us about fiber, water, fruits and veggies, exercise, etc. And warns against laxatives which can be habit forming. It also mentions that if constipation is chronic or severe, one should see a physician to rule out underlying causes, such as anemia, polyps or thyroid problems.
Hope this is helpful,
~Suzanne~
[This message has been edited by Suzanne Sutton (edited 08-17-2003).]
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Yes one of the annoying parts is my father (a noninal believer) smoked a pipe like a train, chewed tobacco, drank, ate lots of meat, and still lived to 84yrs, Yet other people try to follow a healthy lifestyle yet die at a much younger age.
Yes I know all about one's dispostion but the main thing we all have to die sometime and as long as we are ready to go when the time comes that's the main thing,[This message has been edited by Narroc (edited 08-17-2003).]
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"...as long as we are ready to go when the time comes that's the main thing." Amen, Brother Narroc. And we do not know when that day may come. It could be today. Today is the day of salvation. "Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God." 1 Corinthians 10:31
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Dear Narroc,
Sorry to hear about your wife. There may be other factors that could have caused colon cancer, hereditary predisposition being a major one. Constipation could have simply been one of the manifestations of colon cancer during the early stages of its development. It is important to understand that some cancers may take 10-15 years before they are detected. Hence the value of routine colonoscopies.
You raised an important topic about Lane. In fact, Lane was exposed to the teachings of Dr John Harvey Kellog who also had an aversion to the colon.
Some people can become fixated on the colon as the source of diseases that they become overbearing. There is no question that unnecessary stasis, bacterial translocation, and a buildup of of toxins can take place in the colon. Much of that depends however on the foods eaten, and the level of activity.
The recommendations of Sister Suzanne are excellent. I wouldn't go any further than increasing water intake, increase fiber intake, eating fruits and vegetables, walking after meals, and mineral oil if needed.
Kellog promoted hot colonic enemnas with temperatuires up to 120 F. Lane promoted colon removal. Both were wrong. God's methods work best.
Dugald
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Get this! even the secular media is warning against the meat and animal products that are available today. Psychology Today, September/October 2003, featured this article:
Warning on Toxins
Women and especially young girls should be eating less meat, whole milk and other dietary fat that may expose them to dioxins, warns a recent report. The Institute of Medicine, one arm of the National Academy of Sciences, points out that these chemicals increase the risk of cancer and alter hormone production in both men and women.
Dioxins, discovered in the 1970s, are industrial pollutants that lodge in animal fat via contaminated soil. They are especially dangerous for young girls as their bodies accumulate the pollutants over time. They can harm infants in utero and through breast milk. --adapted.
Well, here we have another warning regarding the dangers of the high-meat and animal fat diet consumed by so many today. And men are equally affected in other ways and should also take notice.
A word to the wise,
~Suzanne~
[This message has been edited by Suzanne Sutton (edited 08-20-2003).]
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As I read things of this sort it makes me all the more grateful that we have been given this information years ago. And in some things given us we did not have reasons, some things we did. But today we see that those who followed the advise given lived longer and happier lives. And now, after all this time, the world is coming to realize the things once laughed at years ago, are so true today. And they can give us added reasons not to eat meat, etc... Had more listened when we did not know "all" the "reasons" for it, that there would not have been so many dying of cancer, heart attacks, etc.... getting worse and worse as the years go by.
God is always right. He tells us many things we don't understand at the time, but if we trust and obey (regardless) in time we find that it was the wisest thing after all--"to trust God" and His Prophet.
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With Christian Love,
Sister Marie
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"The Dark Side of Animal Protein"
That is the title of chapter 4 of Dr. Joel Fuhrman's new book, Eat to Live. Dr. Fuhrman, a board-certified family physician, specializes in peventing and reversing disease through nutrition and natural methods.
He begins with a discussion of the China-Cornell-Oxford Project (the China Project) and notes that this "Grand Prix of all epidemiological studies is the most comprehensive study on the relationship of diet and disease in medical history. "It studies populations with a full range of dietary possibilities: from a completely plant-food diet to diets that included a significant amount of animal foods."
...Researchers found huge differences in disease rates depending upon the amount of plant foods eaten and the availability of animal products. As the amount of animal products increases, even in very samll amounts, the rates of cancer inceases in direct proportion. "Most cancers occurred in direct proportion to the quantity of animal foods consumed."
The "China Project" found that as animal food consumption approached zero, cancer rates fell. Areas of the country with an extremely low consumption of animal food were virtually free of heart attacks and cancer. An analysis of the mortality data from 65 counties and 130 villages showed a significant association with animal protein intake (even in relatively low levels) and heart attacks, with a strong protective effect from the consumption of green vegetables.
All animal products are low (or completely lacking) in the nutrients that protect us against cancer and heart attacks--fiber, antioxidants, phytochemicals, folate, vitamin E, etc.) Conversely, they are rich in substances that scientific investigations have shown to be associated with cancer and heart disease incidence: saturated fat and cholesterol.
Dr. Fuhrman further delves into the subject noting in his practice that many people do not see a dramatic drop in cholesterol levels unless they eliminate ALL animal products from their diets. He emphasizes that coronary artery disease and heart attacks, the number one killer of Americans, is almost 100 percent avoidable. The China Project verifies that among those who consume a life-long vegetarian diet, heart attacks are virtually non-existent.
...The National Cancer Institute reported on 337 different studies all of which showed the same basic information: vegetables and fruits, when consumed in large enough quantities, protect against all types of cancer; raw vegetables exhibit the most powerful anti-cancer properties; beans in general have additional benefits against reproductive cancers.
An important point must be made that a correctly balanced vegetarian diet is called for. Some vegetarian diets are high in processed grains and other refined, processed foods, and low in nutrient-rich plant foods that are inadequate in offering protection against the various degenerative diseases.
Dr. Fuhrman goes on to discuss longevity of vegetarians and then moves into a discussion of the development of cancer. He emphasizes the importance of establishing healthy dietary practices fro children as unhealthy practices set the stage for cancer many years later.
In regard to breast cancer, the consumption of animal products, and the China Project, Dr. Fuhrman observes that "As animal-ffod intake increased from about once a week in the lowest third to about 4 times a week in the highest third, breast cancer rates increased by 70 percent. Of note is that the only difference among the diets was the addition of meat in varying amounts. Consumption of fresh vetetables in all groups was about the same,...There was a strong increase in the occurrence of breast cancer mortality with increasing animal-product consumption."
"Another recent study from Germany found colon cancer and rectal cancer decreased by about 50 percent in adult vegetarians. However, a significantly greater reduction of cancer and all-cause mortality (about 75 percent reduction) was related to being on a vetetarian diet for more than 20 years. The degree of protection correlated well with the number of years on a vegetarian diet. Other studies on vegetarian diets in different countries show almost the same thing. The causes start accumulating early."
In regards to increasing chances of survival for those already dealing with cancer, Dr. Fuhrman notes that researchers looking for answers to this have found that saturated fat (found abundantly in animal products) in the diet promoted a more rapid spread of the cancer. Other researchers found similar results. For a woman who already has cancer, her risk of dying increased 40 percent for every 1,000 grams of fat consumed monthly. Many studies indicate that high fruit and vegetable intake improved survival, and fat on the body increases the risk of premature death....
Comment: This is getting rather long...will continue in the next posting.
~Suzanne~
[This message has been edited by Suzanne Sutton (edited 10-22-2003).]
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...Animal Protein, con't
Dr. Fuhrman points out that "today the link between animal products and many different diseases is as strongly supported in the scientific literature as the link between cigarette smoking and lung cancer. For example, subjects who ate meat, including poultry and fish were found to be twice as likely to develop dementia (loss of intellectual function with aging) than their vegetarian counterparts in a carefully designed study. The discrepancy was further widened when past meat consumption was taken into account. The same diet, loaded with animal products, that causes heart disease and cancer also causes most every other disease prevalent in America including kidney stones, renal insufficiency and renal failure, osteoporosis, uterine fibroids, hypertension, appendicitis, diverticulosis, and thrombosis."
In addessing dairy products and osteoporosis, the doctor quotes Dr. T. Colin Campbell, head of nutritional research at Cornell University: "Ironically, osteoporosis tends to occur in countries where calcium intake is highest and most of it comes from protein-rich dairy products. The Chinese data indicates that people need less calcium than we think and can get adequate amounts from vegetable source plant foods." Dr. Campbell indicated to the New York Times that there was basically no osteoporosis in China, yet the calcium intake ranged from 241 to 943 mg per day (average 544) while the U.S. calcium intake is 841 to 1435 mg per day (average 1143), mostly from dairy sources, and, of course, osteoporosis is a major public health problem here."
Dr. Fuhrman elaborates on the subject, discussing the negative balance and factors contributing to it. He states that "published data clearly links increased urinary excretion of calcium with animal-protein intake but not with vegetable-protein intake. Plant foods, though some may be high in protein, are not acid-forming. Animal-protein ingestion results in a heavy acid load in the blood."
Dr. Fuhrman's concluding comments on dairy: "...It is not essential for good health and carries potential health risks especially products containing dairy fat such as butter and cheese."
For those vegetarian who need more fat in their plant-based diet, Dr. Fuhrman recommends including ground flaxseed and flaxseed oil, as well as raw nuts, nut butters avocados and other healthy foods that are nutrient-rich and also high in fat and calories. --adapted from Back to the Garden, Summer 2003
Physician Profile: Joel Fuhrman, MD.
As a teenager, Joel Fuhrman was a top figure skater...A key element of his training regimen was using a plant-based diet to maximize performance and reduce illness. Years later, while training to become a physician at the University of Pennsylvania School of medicine, Dr. Fuhrman chaired the nutrition education committee and helped fellow students adopt better diets.
Today, Dr. Fuhrman practices family medicine at Hunterdon Medical Center in New Jersey, where he focuses on nutrition. "I have been rewarded with the opportunity to help many thousands of people regain their health, throw away medicines for so-called 'incurable' chronic illnesses, and lose significant amounts of weight," he says. "It's not unusual for those following my program to lose 20 or more pounds in the first six weeks and discontinue using medication for high blood pressure, diabetes, and high cholesterol. Instead of merely treating these problems, we aim to get rid of them."
Dr. Fuhrman has spoken at press conferences, handled media interviews and recorded public service announcements on dietary links to heart disease and prostate cancer. He can be reached at www.DrFuhrman.com or at 800-474-9355. His new book: Eat to Live--The Revolutionary Formula for Fast and Sustained Weight Loss (Little Brown and Co., 2003) is available at book stores. --Reprinted with permission from Good Medicine, Spring 2003, Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine.
~Suzanne
[This message has been edited by Suzanne Sutton (edited 10-22-2003).]
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Often when someone gets sick, one of the first things Jetho Kloss in his book "Back to Eden" would advocate was a good enema.
I really think there is something to this. Mr. Kloss talks about it in his book. We do need to pay attention at how our systems run regarding constipation or diarrhea...
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I'm new on here and didn't realize there was a second page to this thread. So I read down through it and you mentioned Dr. Joel Fuhrman. I've been on his Eat to Live program and it is the BEST I've seen yet in order to lose weight.
If anyone is interested in any of his web sites I know of several.
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I became a strict vegetarian when I found out that cancer virus and other diseases were in milk. I then connected the dots and saw that God gave man a strict vegetarian diet in the beginning and therefore it was not deficient as so many claim. Since I was educated in the same manner as my friends and was told I would get sick if I did not eat animal products, it required some faith in God and His word to move forward. That was many years ago. Today, I have seen and I understand that human wisdom is a tool in Satan's hand to put fear into the hearts of men. There is so much evidence in science today that reveals the truth regarding good health and a plant based diet that faith is no longer required. It takes a little time to sort through the data, but even a child may understand that mad cows and Leukemia infected dairy herds have made animal products a danger to all who use them.
God loves us and has given warning that there is great risk in continuing to eat animal products.
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Although many good points have been made in this thread, I would like to point out another set of reasons for choosing a strict, whole-food, plant-based diet.These points are a summary of a number of more in-depth studies I have done personally in the Bible and SOP on the topic.
-God gave His people the principles of healthy living (all 8 of the natural remedies) primarily for spiritual reasons. The physical benefits are secondary, and are NOT guaranteed. We can follow these principles very closely and still, in some cases, develop cancer, heart dz, diabetes, etc. Obviously, our risk is much lower of getting these diseases.
-The spiritual reasons are several:
1- God is doing a special work for His people now, during the anti-typical Day of Atonement. He calls us to cooperate with Him in this work through our lifestyle choices. Making choices according to His counsel is not only obedient (If you love me, keep my commandments) but enables Him to develop His character in us, to sanctify us. This work is a work in our mind. (Character is the sum total of our thoughts and our feelings - both take place in the brain.) The brain is the organ of the body most sensitive to lifestyle choices of all kinds. The most sensitive part of the brain is the frontal lobe where conscience and choice reside. This is where the Holy Spirit communicates with us. Anything that impairs the functioning of the brain, impairs our ability to hear and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. Science has now clearly shown that taking into our bodies anything that we have counsel to leave off (excess sugar, fat, any animal products, etc.) directly impairs the function of our frontal lobe.
2- Developing the mind/character of Christ requires self-denial on our part. See Phil.2, first half. Dietary principles outlined by God are designed to also develop self denial in us as we deny perverted appetites
Obedience always results in rich blessings to our walk with God
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Since I was educated in the same manner as my friends and was told I would get sick if I did not eat animal products, it required some faith in God and His word to move forward. That was many years ago. Today, I have seen and I understand that human wisdom is a tool in Satan's hand to put fear into the hearts of men. There is so much evidence in science today that reveals the truth regarding good health and a plant based diet that faith is no longer required.
It is ironic how we are told by people that are getting sickly largely because of their lifestyle choices that one cannot be healthy unless they retain that poor lifestyle. By God's grace our children have not had more than the sniffles( one time) in the past year. No doubt this will not last but it is a testimony to the faultiness of the advice of many.
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1- God is doing a special work for His people now, during the anti-typical Day of Atonement. He calls us to cooperate with Him in this work through our lifestyle choices. Making choices according to His counsel is not only obedient (If you love me, keep my commandments) but enables Him to develop His character in us, to sanctify us. This work is a work in our mind. (Character is the sum total of our thoughts and our feelings - both take place in the brain.) The brain is the organ of the body most sensitive to lifestyle choices of all kinds. The most sensitive part of the brain is the frontal lobe where conscience and choice reside. This is where the Holy Spirit communicates with us. Anything that impairs the functioning of the brain, impairs our ability to hear and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. Science has now clearly shown that taking into our bodies anything that we have counsel to leave off (excess sugar, fat, any animal products, etc.) directly impairs the function of our frontal lobe.
2- Developing the mind/character of Christ requires self-denial on our part. See Phil.2, first half. Dietary principles outlined by God are designed to also develop self denial in us as we deny perverted appetites
Obedience always results in rich blessings to our walk with God
Amen. To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin. If we overcome by God's grace on the point of appetite, we can overcome all else. :)
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Dr. John McDougall, medical director of the McDougall program has this to say about the Atkins Diet.
Q. What do you think of meat-based diets like the Atkins diet?
A. I call them 'the make yourself sick diets' because they cause the body to go into ketosis--a state that occurs when we are seriously ill. I also use that designation because the very foods recommended--meat, chicken, bacon, eggs, and cheeses--are the foods the Heart Association and the Cancer Society say cause our most dreaded diseases. There is only one way to fully satisfy your appetite with delicious foods and stay trim and healthy for a lifetime--that's a low-fat vegetarian diet with fruits and vegetables and a bit of exercise. --PETA's Vegetarian Starter Kit.
Suzanne
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I have some difficulty in your first statement.
You said God told us to be vegetarians, did I understand this correctly? Then, the same God also provided different flash meat to eat, did He not? Is God double talking?<P>Won
Dear Won;
God did not provide animals to eat, He provided animals to grace the earth. Because of sin and some of the peculiar and difficult circumstances as the result of sin God allowed at times the consumption of certain animals. God never purposed for animals to be killed and eaten but He allowed it and even provided it at times. He is leading His people back to the diet originally given to man. Will we follow ?
The Lord also never purposed originally that little lambs be killed but because of sin there was a time when it was unfortunately necessary. That time is passed. I believe the same is true today when it comes to the killing of animals and eating their flesh for pleasure when we have adequate fruits, grains, and nuts. In the very few exceptions where there is not reasonable alternative, if there are any, that may be a different matter.
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I have some difficulty in your first statement.
You said God told us to be vegetarians, did I understand this correctly? Then, the same God also provided different flash meat to eat, did He not? Is God double talking?<P>Won
Amen, Cp ... also a review of the story of the flood, that transitional period from the original diet to that to include clean meats, can clear up any misunderstandings. God did this for a reason and man's life span was shortened at the same time.
It is quite an incredible transitional period.
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And if man still desires to kill to satisfy his appetite, and cares not to keep his lifespan shortened from 900 to 70, then he ought to consider that there is no such thing as "clean" meat or milk. The day has passed when eating a cow would only shorten man's life to three score and ten. Today, Leukemia kills many in their childhood. There is no such thing as clean meat or milk. The animals are diseased and pass their diseases to man when he eats their flesh, milk, or eggs. It is past time to become a strict vegetarian.
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Last night I knocked on the door of a family whose truck had this bumper sticker, " Eat venison 10,000 wolves cannot be wrong !"
My thoughts were... I guess that's ok if you are a wolf but I don't claim that title.
Vultures, pigs, dogs, and no doubt wolves eat road kills as well. I don't think that is good company.... or.... a good recommendation.
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There is nothing more powerful than a good testimony on the benefits of healthy eating:
Adventist Joseph Nally says a vegan lifestyle leads to life of happiness
Virginia De Leon Correspondent
Vegetarian chef Joseph Nally is a graduate of the College of Culinary Arts at Johnson and Wales University and worked as a chef for many years before he slowly turned to a plant-based diet. He didn’t become a Seventh-day Adventist until about four years ago, when the vegetarian teachings of the church appealed to him. He’s now a preacher and instructor for the Countryside Seventh-day Adventist Church in north Spokane.
Simple Health Cooking Class
What: A free vegetarian cooking class followed by a community meal
When: Second Sunday of each month at 4 p.m.
Where: Spokane Countryside Adventist Church, 12107 W. Seven Mile Road
For more information: Call (509) 720-8038 or check out Joseph Nally’s blog, which includes the recipes for his vegetarian cooking class.
There’s actually such a thing as a “bad vegetarian.” At least, that’s how Joseph Nally once identified himself.
In his desire to be healthy and to lessen his impact on the environment, Nally vowed 10 years ago to refrain from eating meat as well as eggs and dairy products. But he still felt bloated and sluggish, he recalled.
His diet – sans animal flesh and products – consisted mostly of refined carbohydrates and saturated fats.
“Sure, I cut out the meat, but I ate everything else,” said Nally, a trained chef who lives in Nine Mile Falls. “Eating well isn’t just about removing meat. It’s really more about eating whole grains, raw vegetables and other healthy foods.”
After spending nearly a decade working in restaurants in various parts of the country, Nally discovered a connection between his health and spiritual life. He came to the conclusion that he could no longer just live to eat; instead he had to eat well in order to live a more vibrant and sustainable life.
Now, Nally is sponsored by the Spokane Countryside Adventist Church as a “Bible worker,” that is, a preacher and instructor, whose duties include teaching others about the benefits of simple, plant-based foods. Every month, he organizes a free cooking and health class for people in the community who want to learn more about vegetarian and vegan alternatives. More on this story (http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2010/jun/23/vibrant-vegan/)
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There is never an end to the new twists. A conference worker I know said that "the health message is a gift." I agree. Then he said that you can open the gift or not open it since it is not a salvation issue. Apparently his thinking is that the health message will give you longer and happier life but if you choose to ignor it you may lose out physically but not in the spiritual arena. It sounds as though he sees the SOP relative to the health message as no more than a good idea, a suggestion. I see this as lethal theology leading to eternal loss unless repented of. He defends chocolate in health lectures claiming it is good for you and " show me one quote from Ellen White against chocolate and I will give you $100.
If the health message is light what are we told in the Scriptures happens when we walk not in the light ?
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As him "Ellen White never said it was wrong to eat road kill. Does that mean you will eat it?" Saying chocolate is good for you is on the same level as saying a daily glass or two of red wine is good for you.
Picking and choosing in the SOP is "making the Testimonies of none effect."
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That's the way I see it. If there is one benefit to something and six negatives is it good for you ? Its like the good dog that only bites every tenth person.
I would like to locate the quote I read one day that said practicing the health message is just as much a moral duty as is keeping the Sabbath. Perhaps someone has that quote for me at their finger tips.
How can we intentionally and repeatedly reject a gift of God and be saved ? Where is that in Scripture ?
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There is never an end to the new twists. A conference worker I know said that "the health message is a gift." I agree. Then he said that you can open the gift or not open it since it is not a salvation issue. Apparently his thinking is that the health message will give you longer and happier life but if you choose to ignor it you may lose out physically but not in the spiritual arena. It sounds as though he sees the SOP relative to the health message as no more than a good idea, a suggestion. I see this as lethal theology leading to eternal loss unless repented of. He defends chocolate in health lectures claiming it is good for you and " show me one quote from Ellen White against chocolate and I will give you $100.
If the health message is light what are we told in the Scriptures happens when we walk not in the light ?
If it is a gift of God, and God only gives us good gifts and wants the best for us, it only makes sense that at some point in our relationship with Him, He would convict us of the health message and work in us to give us a healtheir, fuller life. What happens if we reject the convictions of the Holy Spirit on the health message? Doesn't that in and of itself not put it into the realm of obedience, of accepting the Spirit in our lives, and our trust in God? Wouldn't that effect everyother aspect of our realtionship with God, if trust is involved? And is does that mean that it is a moral and a salvation issue, becoming a choice between belief and unbelief?
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"Moral" has to do with right and wrong. Is it right to kill oneself with what enters the mouth? If we know smoking is harmful is it immoral to smoke? I think a child can answer this for us. But, the Bible says "to him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him, it is sin." The Bible means exactly what it says. Many refuse to believe what the Bible says and they will suffer loss. There is no greater sin than "unbelief".
And, we can add just a little to this short lesson. Some remain willfully ignorant and they too are guilty of sin. When we neglect the opportunity to learn what is truth, it is a moral choice. Some restrict "morality" to the ten commandments, but they err. Selfishness is sin. All sin is immoral.
So, when one knows that it is unnecessary to kill an animal to have health, then why kill an animal for food?
When one is told that there is Leukemia Virus in most dairy and a virus can cause human cancer, then why continue to eat dairy? Because we need it for good health? No. That has never been true. The original diet given to man did not include eggs and milk. So, man does not need them for good health. To the contrary, dairy causes disease in humans because much of it is infected with disease. Those who do not understand, and do not remain willfully ignorant are not guilty of violating a "moral" law. They may violate a physical law that will have consequences, but if they do not understand, then there is no issue of morality in eating animals or their products.
Most people outside of the church are happy to find out about dairy products. Many begin to make changes in their diet immediately upon receiving the information. They rush home to see if it is so and by the next time I see them they have more questions and express their shock that things could have gotten to such a sad state where the government allows Leukemia to be in milk sold to the public. They have no "religious" law forcing them to do what is right, they just want to do it to protect themselves and their children. Don't most feel this way? And if not, why not?
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Science is starting to prove the dangers of eating animal products and the blessings that come from eating fruits and vegetables. A medical study done in London has added encouragement that eating cruciferous veggies is protective against cancer. The cruciferous family includes broccoli and cabbage. abibleanswer.org (http://abibleanswer.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=469:cancer-prevention-afforded-by-broccoli&catid=105:medical-studies&Itemid=157)
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"Moral" has to do with right and wrong. Is it right to kill oneself with what enters the mouth? If we know smoking is harmful is it immoral to smoke? I think a child can answer this for us. But, the Bible says "to him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him, it is sin." The Bible means exactly what it says. Many refuse to believe what the Bible says and they will suffer loss. There is no greater sin than "unbelief".
And, we can add just a little to this short lesson. Some remain willfully ignorant and they too are guilty of sin. When we neglect the opportunity to learn what is truth, it is a moral choice. Some restrict "morality" to the ten commandments, but they err. Selfishness is sin. All sin is immoral.
So, when one knows that it is unnecessary to kill an animal to have health, then why kill an animal for food?
When one is told that there is Leukemia Virus in most dairy and a virus can cause human cancer, then why continue to eat dairy? Because we need it for good health? No. That has never been true. The original diet given to man did not include eggs and milk. So, man does not need them for good health. To the contrary, dairy causes disease in humans because much of it is infected with disease. Those who do not understand, and do not remain willfully ignorant are not guilty of violating a "moral" law. They may violate a physical law that will have consequences, but if they do not understand, then there is no issue of morality in eating animals or their products.
Most people outside of the church are happy to find out about dairy products. Many begin to make changes in their diet immediately upon receiving the information. They rush home to see if it is so and by the next time I see them they have more questions and express their shock that things could have gotten to such a sad state where the government allows Leukemia to be in milk sold to the public. They have no "religious" law forcing them to do what is right, they just want to do it to protect themselves and their children. Don't most feel this way? And if not, why not?
Yes, and to kill an animal or to hire another to do so, to gratify taste, when we know or are able to know that to eat flesh is harmful to us, is that not sin? Is sin not a salvation issue.
Recently I heard one of our young pastors say in a sermon that we are not to push our extreme diets on others. He did not explain what he meant by "pushing" and "extreme" but given the fact that almost all the congregation eats meat and even more consume dairy I take "extreme" to mean vegan. I have not heard any discussion up front in church regarding ANY aspect of health. The pastor also said that we are all at different stages of development and that he was certain that no one in the congregation was failing to listen to God. Not to pick on people but there are members with rings in the ears and fingers and there are superintendents that put a Santa up on the screen at Christmas and for remarks read off "funny" children's lists to Santa. My point is that many of our leaders are trying to be so protective of the congregations that they will not so much as hint that something could be wrong with a flesh diet, or Santa, or jewelry. Some will not even say the name Ellen White (one of my favorite authors). ::) :P For shame
It has become fashionable to say and think that nothing is a salvation issue other than a profession.
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Yes, and to kill an animal or to hire another to do so, to gratify taste, when we know or are able to know that to eat flesh is harmful to us, is that not sin? Is sin not a salvation issue.
Recently I heard one of our young pastors say in a sermon that we are not to push our extreme diets on others. He did not explain what he meant by "pushing" and "extreme" but given the fact that almost all the congregation eats meat and even more consume dairy I take "extreme" to mean vegan. I have not heard any discussion up front in church regarding ANY aspect of health. The pastor also said that we are all at different stages of development and that he was certain that no one in the congregation was failing to listen to God. Not to pick on people but there are members with rings in the ears and fingers and there are superintendents that put a Santa up on the screen at Christmas and for remarks read off "funny" children's lists to Santa. My point is that many of our leaders are trying to be so protective of the congregations that they will not so much as hint that something could be wrong with a flesh diet, or Santa, or jewelry. Some will not even say the name Ellen White (one of my favorite authors). ::) :P For shame
It has become fashionable to say and think that nothing is a salvation issue other than a profession.
While at the supermarket the other day, I asked the checker if they caught the flu yet to make chitchat. It surprised me, she said no and "don't eat meat"
EGW: Yes, a very well known pastor around here refers to Ellen White as "one author" and rarely says the name Ellen G. White. To me it's blending with the PC world without even realizing it.
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Yes, Carl, and since when does "one author" need to be kept in the closet ? We do not need to hide the prophet. We have nothing to be ashamed of accept those that are ashamed.
I suggest we start advocating a printing in our bulletins "one head elder" and the sermon will be by "one pastor" or "one of my favorite pastors". ;)
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Back on topic. I believe one of several good reasons to be a strict vegetarian is because an all knowing Father in heaven has told us that that is the diet He would like us to return to..... because it is the natural diet given to man. It is the best diet for us and the one most kind to animals.
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There are many who read in this forum who are not yet true Christians. They therefore are seeking a knowledge of what is truth regarding good health. The great blessing is that today, one does not need the Bible to tell them that the eating of animal products is putting them and their families at great risk. Science today has confirmed many truths regarding the superiority of a strict vegetarian diet. It works from two directions. That animals are sick and are a vector for transmitting their disease to humans when eaten and that a diet diet of fruits, grains, nuts, and seeds provide not only good nutrition, but defense against disease. More and more, science is proving that the original diet given to man in the Bible is the best.
It is our privilege to share these truths with those outside of our faith who have never had the opportunity to know. The world is ready for health reform.
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Maybe we could share some information regarding why veggies are so much superior better to animal products even with all the issues with veggies. I do not need any convincing but many people out there have been told that veggies are just as bad as meat and dairy due to all the chemicals and GMO issues with fruit and veggies.
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That does not hold up, does it. The diseases spread by veggies often come from an animal source. e. coli and many of the bacterial disease emanate from animals. Cancer is spread from animal products. And, the chemicals can be a problem, but not nearly as much as the diseases spread by animal products.
And, we may avert GMOs, but the animals do not. Therefore, humans get the GMOs second hand from eating animal products.
Yes, share with us, cp, some of the important truths that reveal reasons for giving up animal products for food.
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Yes, plants and animals/animal products have radically different effects on the body particularly in our time. Are chemicals sprayed on plants bad for us ? Of course, and there are no guarantee even with organic produce. However, there is really no comparison between the food God created to be eaten and animal products. There are so many dimensions of danger relative to animal products that do not even exist with plants. I am far from an expert in this field but even comparing plants and animal flesh just in the area of chemicals alone gives a distinct advantage to the plants. Animals tend to store high concentrations of chemicals from sprays in their fat and organs so as not to be comparable with plants. There is no getting around eating some of the animal fat and typically well marbled meat is sought after. For instance, a beef steer eats a great deal of chemical laden silage, hay, corn and such by the time he reaches 1500-1800 pounds. By market time the beef has eaten more contaminated food than a person could eat in 10 years. When the person eats the beef, typically with the fat and the blood he receives along with exposure to life threatening diseases much higher doses of chemical from herbicides and insecticides than he would ever get from the hay and corn because he could never begin to eat than much. Then add the antibiotics, steroids, and whatever tankage the animal was fed as a supplement and the human gets a high dose of chemical stew.
This reason alone not to mention all the others is reason enough to stay away from all animal products. What's bad in plants is tenfold worse in the animals people typically.
Someone might reply, " my beef has been fed organically grown produce." This is rare and would cost a fortune to the consumer to go that route and would not be practical. Even if this was done, organic growers use sprays too and what might not be harmful in the amount that would be on a plant may be harmful when concentrated in the animal.
Again, none of this is even considering the disease factor relative to animals and absent in plants. Then there is the effect of animal fat on the human being as well as the fiberless effect of meat on the digestive system, as well as the high protein effect on the body leaching out calcium necessary for strong bones.
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This Sabbath we had a spaghetti fellowship supper at church. A number of church members eat meat. To add more content to our spaghetti sauce I included homemade bulgur burger from organic bulgur wheat. About mid way through the meal word got around that one crock pot had meat in the sauce. We were asked by the head elder's wife if that was our crock pot and is there meat in it. She knew better but had to ask because others were asking. This was very humorous to us (lol)as we are the only true vegans in the entire church. People really liked the sauce and one very worldly member (hooped earrings, pants, makeup etc.etc.) asked me what we put in the sauce. I could tell that the reason she asked this was because she could not believe that a meatless sauce could seem so much like sauce with meat . I don't think it was the taste so much as the texture that fooled the people. ;D
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Amen, cp. One of the great impediments to giving up meat is the appearance, texture, and taste of dishes that mimic meat dishes. But, there is really no reason for this to be a stumbling block. Today, it is possible to provide a meal that all may enjoy. I prepared a strict vegetarian stroganoff for an Easter dinner where all were meat eaters. All ate from the dish and none knew it was not meat. The issue is very much a mental resistance. I am not saying that there are dishes that can replace all meat dishes. I am saying that a strict vegetarian diet can be attractive, provide meat texture, and be delicious. There are so many healthful foods that even before there is a change in taste, there is much to eat when moving away from animal products.
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The other day I announced to my children that" we would not have salad today." They cheered like people do when someone scores a touch down. I guess we are having too much salad. They like salad but I suppose having it 6-7 days a week can get monotonous. Today they ate 45 oz. of turnip greens after their salad and baked potato. I got a trifle of greens that was left. I have never seen children like cooked greens so much. Though most canned food is worthless canned greens are pretty healthy. That means with the turnip greens alone they each got 150% vitamin A, 40% calcium, 15% iron, and 10% vitamin C. Now its my turn to cheer ! Add on a baked potato with flax seed oil, yeast flakes, onion and garlic powder and sea salt etc.. etc., and an organic salad with romaine, carrots, beet, dill, olives, lemons juice etc.. and a home ground, homemade whole wheat muffin,.... and I think we done alright. ;D
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You would make someone an excellent wife, Colporteur. ;D You are outshining most women in the kitchen. Keep up the good work!
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You would make someone an excellent wife, Colporteur. ;D You are outshining most women in the kitchen. Keep up the good work!
I have always loved to cook. The difference is I used to put together a mixed multitude. That means a nice salad and potato with my barbecue pork chops. In some ways it is more difficult now and in other ways easier. I used to cook entirely for taste. Now it is more for health with taste secondary. With less cooking of vegetables and no dead flesh to char it cuts down on that part of it. Although almost 90% food prep from scratch can make one busy sometimes. Grinding flour and making bread takes time but I have learned to do it in quantity so that helps a lot. Today I hauled up spuds from the well pit. Most were doing quite well after 7 months storage. I think they will make it until about potato harvesting time for the new crop. Amazing that there was a time I thought life would end without the status quo in terms of sports, hunting, fishing, and eating dead remains. It is amazing how the Lord can spin one around and head him another direction, if he is willing.
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I never have shoved my diet down some ones throat, but we do need to set a right example that others may see and follow. You can read the bible and you will not find anywhere were it says we cannot eat clean meat, and many Adventists do eat clean meat. Now I myself have not eaten meat for over 18 years for I knew it was not the healthiest choice. But one day as I was studying for a talk up front, I read Gen 9:5 "And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it..." I thought about that and realized that yeas after the flood, God allowed Noah to eat of the clean animals which he had taken on the ark. But there would be a price that he and all others that followed would have to face and that was that their life for the animals life. As I thought about it I looked it up in the Ellen White writings and found this to collaborate my thinking. . If meat eating was ever healthful, it is not safe now. Cancers, tumors, and pulmonary diseases are largely caused by meat eating. T. vol. 9 p159 it seems to me that the meat its self is the very one that takes the life of man often in the form of cancer, heart disease and the list goes on. S.N. Haskel wrote in his little bible hand book; "Over every plate of flesh meat, those words of God can truly be placed; "Surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it..." God has never for gotten to avenge the blood of animals slain for food. He uses various agencies to fulfill His word, as cancers, tumors, ulcers, consumptions, ect." Mrs. White goes on to say that, Among those who are waiting for the coming of the Lord, meat eating will eventually be done away; flesh will cease to form a part of their diet So it looks pretty plain to me. And when asked this is the exact answer I give, for I am trying to prepare myself for translation day.
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That's the difference Mark. In the anti-typical day of atonement are God's professed people walking in the light and moving forward or are we using a time when the animal kingdom was much healthier and man's physical constitution much stronger (2,000 years ago) to excuse today living in the dark ages health wise due to our lust for flesh ? I agree we should not push this down the throats of those in the remnant church. The problem is that many are not reading and to even read the lines such as you have quoted, as superintendent's remarks for Sabbath school or during a health seminar in the church is often met with some kind of negative uprising by members. Some do not know and some know but do not wish to be reminded. We in the church have allowed the few that would rise up and make a big fuss to quiet our message.
There is another facet of "clean" flesh eating that never gets mentioned. We are told repeatedly in Scripture that to eat the meat with the fat or the blood is unclean and an abomination. That means that to eat a "good steak" is to consume one that is well marbled with fat for flavor and tenderness. If it is not well done and cut open a goodly amount of blood issues out. Under a different biblical category the dead flesh is still unclean.
We have direct counsel in the Spirit of Prophecy that those who still consume flesh ought not be preaching and teaching our people because their minds are confused. There are those as well that simply rebel against the light and continue along that line from the pulpit. I have seen that in the church we were members of in Michigan. One member pressed for the pulpit until he got his way. He was a professed "joker" and would talk about inviting the guys over for steaks. Then we would make comments like, " I suppose the head elder will be pulling me aside after the sermon and talking with me. I would not give him the pulpit but the head elder was more easy going and let the man go. When i shared with the member why from the SOP I would not let him preach on my month of choosing speakers he went to the pastor and said, " we might as well throw in the towel." The pastor about freaked and then made excuses for letting this man sow his seeds from the pulpit. I am under the conviction that we ought not let members, lifetime members, seize the pulpit by means of threats to leave the church. If we must push and press for the pulpit, that in itself is a disqualification to speak This man's wife wears a diamond and at times he speaks in church about being a good witness to his brother by helping him plant trees on the Sabbath. All of this supports what we are told in the SOP about the minds and attitudes of those who persist in eating flesh food. When we first moved and visited the church this man would make jesting comments at the SOP during fellowship dinner like " i must be confused because I eat venison." This would be when we were not even talking about diet.
Then as I think you eluded to there is the inhumane way animals are raised, hauled to market, and slaughtered these days.
My point is that there are many in the church that not only ignore the firm counsel of God but would push their meat diet down the throats of our people. In the church here, before we came they were serving meat and coffee for fellowship dinner. I believe the church is perfectly justified by emphasizing from our pulpits and during Sabbath school the diet that God is trying to lead His people back to, the Edenic diet. I don't want to sound harsh but if our seasoned church members find that offensive they might join the Episcopal church where the road is wide and many there be that travel down it. ;D
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The following is what I shared with the elder in my church in Michigan.
“NO ONE should be set apart as a teacher of the people while his own teaching or example contradicts the testimony God has given His servants to bear in regard to diet, for this will bring CONFUSION. His disregard of health reform UNFITS him to stand as the Lord’s messenger.” 6T. 378 (emphasis supplied) Question: Does standing behind the pulpit define one as “the Lord’s messenger?”
"Let not any our ministers set an evil example in the eating of flesh meat. Let them and their families live up to the light of health reform." Counsels on Diet and Foods, p. 399. (emphasis supplied) Question: " Is not the speaker behind the pulpit the acting minister?
"Can we possibly have confidence in ministers who at tables where flesh is served join with others in eating it?" Ibid., p. 402.
"Will ANY who are ministers of the gospel, proclaiming the most solemn truth ever given to mortals, set an example in returning to the fleshpots of Egypt? Will those who are supported by the tithe from God's storehouse permit themselves by self-indulgence to poison the life-giving current flowing through their veins? Will they disregard the light and warnings that God has given them?" Ibid., p. 404, 405.
(emphasis supplied)
Is a speaker giving the message during the divine service a “messenger of the gospel?” Is he not the acting minister? Whether paid by the tithe or not has little to do with the fact that his message is in effect carrying much the same weight. The Bible makes no difference between an elder and a pastor.
A Sabbathschool teacher or anyone reading and presenting something up front before the people is surely an application of “teacher of the people” as referred to in the quote from 6 Test., p.378.
“One of the highest attainments in the Christian life is to overcome appetite, and without this victory ALL HOPE OF HEAVEN IS VAIN.” C.T.B.H. 206 (emphasis supplied)
“The controlling power of appetite will prove the ruin of thousands, when, if they had conquered on this point, they would have had moral power to gain the victory over every other temptation of Satan. But those who are slaves to appetite will fail in perfecting Christian character. The continual transgression of man for six thousand years has brought sickness, pain, and death as its fruits. And as we near the close of time, Satan's temptation to indulge appetite will be more powerful and more difficult to overcome." [3T, 491.3 - 492]
“The moral evils of a flesh diet are not less marked than are the physical ills. Flesh food is injurious to the health, and whatever affects the body has a corresponding effect on the mind and soul. Think the cruelty to animals that meat eating involves, and its effect on those who inflict and those who behold it. How it destroys the tenderness with which we should regard these creatures of God.” (1905) M.H. 315
“As a family, you are far from being free from disease. You have used the fat of animals which God in His word expressly forbids: It shall be a perpetual statue for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood. “ “ Moreover, ye shall eat no manner of blood, whether it be of fowl or of beast, in any of your dwellings. Whatsoever soul it be that eateth any manner of blood, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.” (1868) 2T 61 (See Lev. 3:17, 7:25)
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Good read CP. And I agree. i think you know what I mean by shoving it down someones throat, but that doesn't mean we are not to be a witness or warn the righteous if their way is not in accordance with the will of God. Any one that believes their body is the temple of God, should head what has been penned on the subject. And if they don't read, then yes we that do know are under solom obligation to tell them so as that their blood is not on our hands. During the lesson discussion even last month i found the opportunity to share what I penned above, and do so when the opportunity arises. And yes I have preached it from the pulpit in a loving manner just to show what the bibles and SOPs stance was on the subject. But I guess my church is not like some for they took it without a firestorm. For they knew it was right and if they choose to go contrary then that is between them and God. I don't know all their circumstances but do know of one family that are on a fixed income which is meager. And yes he hunts deer every year for food. Again it is between them and God. We just make sure we have done our part and then he can do His. Now preaching contrary to the word is a different story. We as elders when a question arises or one of us catch something that does not sound right, we discuss it and even have a group study in order to find the answers. And if need be disciplinary action sometimes has to happen. But I am fortunate for our church has a unanimous agreement and board approved vote to never serve meat at any fellowship lunch or get together. I mean we are so far in the ditch that all music to be played at any function has to be pre-aproved. ;D God bless
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Yes, there are indeed good spiritual reasons for becoming a strict vegetarian. Today, that would begin with "thou shall not kill". Eating dairy some would say does not involve killing, but in fact it does. It is now known by the medical community and many in the world that a virus can cause cancer. And, there is a world-wide epidemic of Bovine Leukemia which is caused by a virus. Very few countries have eradicated the virus from their cows. They leave them on the milking line and the virus is seen in the milk when it is sold to the public. From what I have seen, in the United States much of the milk is infected. The University of California, Berkley, has been doing a study to see if there is a connection between Bovine Leukemia and human breast cancer. They are finding markers for BLV in breast tissue of breast cancer patients. There is enough evidence to suggest that those who are still eating and drinking dairy are exposing themselves to the risk of cancer. In other words, many may be killing themselves and sadly their children. That sounds like a good reason to refrain from placing animal products in front of others, especially in church.
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My mother has been to more doctors perhaps than the woman with the issue of blood. Since her last doctor was another misfit she went looking for another. I have tried repeatedly to steer her to one of our natural health clinics but without success. Two people that she respects very much both told her that they would recommend a new black doctor from Africa. He is a young man and has been educated in New York. While visiting with my mother and looking over her charts they talked about her health concerns and my mother mentioned her youngest son (my younger brother) and his kidney issues. The doctor asked, "do either of you east meat?" My mother said that she eats a little and my brother has cut back to chicken and fish. The doctor said that that was good but that they should cut our meat entirely. He said that it would give them 15 more years of life if they would do that. Then he asked, "do you happen know any SDAs ?" My mother replied," as a matter of fact I do." "You do ?" He continued. " Well, they have it right when it comes to health !" " If you know someone who is SDA just go by their diet." My mother replied, " I am a SDA and my oldest son is as well. He does not eat any meat or dairy." The doctor was taken back a little and said, "that's good. Most all of this is contaminated now." My mother assumed he must be SDA so she asked, " are you SDA?" " No," he replied, " but they have it right when it comes to health." I am sending my mother a Ministry of Healing to give him next visit followed by a Great Controversy if he is receptive. Given his statements, no matter his religious beliefs I would think he should be most receptive to the MH.
This story is bitter sweet. The sweet part is obvious. The other part is that the majority of SDAs eat both meat and dairy. I'm going to share this testimony in church. We have SDAs in my local church that say " Jesus ate meat" while we have non SDA doctors point people to us because of our health message.
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Many doctors outside of our faith are in better shape than many of our doctors. :(
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I have been dialoging with a doctor who is either a former SDA or knows as much about our message as most SDAs and probably more than many. He publically in SDA settings advocates the eating of flesh, eggs, and alcohol in moderation.
His premise is that diet has little if anything to do with representing Christ even when a person knowingly continues along a wrong course. He says but rather it is love for others that reveals that we represent Christ. Do we truly represent Christ and show a love for others when because of poor lifestyle choices we become a burden to them physically and financially and cut our lives short unnecessarily because of appetite ?
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Is it love for others to set food in front of their children that will infect them with a cancer virus? Is it love for others to set an example of drinking alcohol? Is it love for others to misrepresent Bible truth? When the Bible says to not eat unclean meat, there is a reason why. Do go contrary to the Bible command is sin. But, in what you are describing, cp, it appears that the teaching is contrary to this. It is not uncommon to hear such things.
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Colporteur, what does this person do with the verse that says "Whatsoever you eat, whatsoever you drink, whatsoever you do, do all to the glory of God"? It's such a well known verse, yet so many explain it away with excuses.
There is also 1 Cor. 10 in which one of the examples we are to heed the warning of is the lust of flesh meat.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXXrB3rz-xU
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Unbelievable. Things just keep getting worse and worse.
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I have been enjoying the comments in this discussion. Especially the EGW quotes. I would just want to warn in this discussion about Satan's deceptions on diet for "the very elect if it was possible". If I am eating in my diet, McDonalds French fries, onion rings with a diet sprite, this would be considered a vegetarian diet. Also included could be veggie dogs and burgers with sugar products incorporated with these excitotoxins. All meatless but just as bad if not worse in the diet. It's not just staying away from flesh foods anymore. I wish it was that simple. Satan is a crafty deceiver. The optimal diet would be eating your foods as grown (organic) straight from the garden if possible. The less processed the better. MARANATHA
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Hi Kaniela, I doubt you will find many disagreeing with you too much on what you've said and since you like gardening we'd love to hear your input on our gardening discussions as we learn a lot from each other.
http://remnant-online.com/smf/index.php/board,63.0.html
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I have been enjoying the comments in this discussion. Especially the EGW quotes. I would just want to warn in this discussion about Satan's deceptions on diet for "the very elect if it was possible". If I am eating in my diet, McDonalds French fries, onion rings with a diet sprite, this would be considered a vegetarian diet. Also included could be veggie dogs and burgers with sugar products incorporated with these excitotoxins. All meatless but just as bad if not worse in the diet. It's not just staying away from flesh foods anymore. I wish it was that simple. Satan is a crafty deceiver. The optimal diet would be eating your foods as grown (organic) straight from the garden if possible. The less processed the better. MARANATHA
I agree. Many even in leadership are in the infancy regarding the health message when the Lord is soon coming. Instead of debating about meat and cheese, or colas, alcohol , coffee and chocolate, the topic ought to be focused on emphasizing more of a raw, organic, and non GMO alkaline food particularly especially in our developed countries. Compared to a truly healthy diet that God gave us pretty much all processed meat analogs are junk food. I'm not saying that it is wrong to ease away from hot dogs with Veggie Links for a time if you are a new SDA but many either keep on with meat hot dogs or load up the 4x4 at the ABC with case after case of Big Franks and Fried Chik. Those processed analogs were simply to help in transition. Many are living on the patch. We used analogs for a time but became convicted that to stay on them was not practicing the health message. It is a bit of a transition to go vegetarian and then vegan when you grow up with barbecued pork chops, hamburgers, steaks, friend chicken or bacon as a daily staple. Some of those analogs taste like cat food smells. ( that last sentence was just a personal opinion) ;D
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Hi Jim, I haven't done much gardening yet, but am preparing to do so. Only done some fruit trees. Consider me as a saint that has just woken up a few years ago to these things. My wife has been getting involved in a health program that God has used to open our eyes when it comes to diet. But I've been searching the www network to learn about organic gardening. The best one I've come across thus far you can watch on youtube. If you haven't seen it yet, you can search it out on youtube under "Back to Eden Gardening ". It's revolutionary. Take care. :)
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Well put Colporteur, I soooo agree with your statements on the analog foods. We were once deceived that these were the foods that Adventist were to eat. Thanks :)
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What does this Seventh-day Adventist retired heart surgeon have to say about a strict vegetarian diet? It must be fairly good advice since he retired at age 95.
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(http://i822.photobucket.com/albums/zz141/EFSutton/Allegory-Pictorials/12039772_10206212881455383_8575394970979547946_n.jpg)
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:)
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absolutely ;D !
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(http://i822.photobucket.com/albums/zz141/EFSutton/Allegory-Pictorials/12039772_10206212881455383_8575394970979547946_n.jpg)
That's going to be displayed somewhere on a wall at our store. ;D
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We could put many captions to that picture.
" You ignore the Seventh day Sabbath and are concerned about the 10 Commandments being taken down from public places?"
"You eat dead carcasses and are worried about soymilk ?
" Do you know that the flu shot only works for the pharmaceutical companies ?" $$$
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I need some computer savvy person to tweak it so those captions could appear with it. I like the idea.
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I need some computer savvy person to tweak it so those captions could appear with it. I like the idea.
Ahhh....... talk to Ed or Mimi. I know my limitations. ;D
How about making little cards like that the size of a Glow Tract ?
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Is this picture copywritten ? If so, fair use allows limited use as is, but altering it and using it commercially requires written permission from the owner . I have no idea who the owner is, it was posted on my time line in facebook .
If you have lots of baby pictures or small grandkids pose them & take pictures & retain rights, but if using this one, hunt up who owns it or if it is royalty free public domain - just to stay safe.
That could make powerful evocative tracts with captions or links to sermons, blogs, bible study sites, for sharing.
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Wally;
I added a slight revision to one statement to help out the point. " You eat charred dead carcasses and are worried about soy milk?" Maybe that's over kill but I like to be thorough. No copyright for the caption. :D
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A recent study published in the January 2016 issue of American Journal of Clinical Nutrition revealed vegan diets showed a statistically significant protective association with prostate cancer risk. The research was done at Loma Linda University. “If you are already a vegan male, be thankful that you will have a lower risk of prostate cancer,” Dr. Gary Fraser, the director of the study, told the Adventist Review on Tuesday. “If you are not vegan, be aware that the lacto-ovo diet and the pesco-vegetarian diet did not give evidence of protection when compared to non-vegetarian Adventists.”