Critical to absorbtion is the health of the intestinal system and the presence of the intrinsic factor. Do you have information on the intrinsic factor and the work it does, type of environment and whether PH has any positive and/or negative impact on it?
Also, vegetarians have a tendencey to take in excessive protein because of the teaching that by not using animal products they are deficient in protein. Is there a relationship to excess protein and low B-12 availability?
------------------
Maranatha
This is Linda, sitting here going, "HUH?" I'm trying to figure out how come you addressed me and not Michelle, or is it another Linda?
Anyway, Michelle, according to information that I have picked up on the web, there is still information coming in on B-12. You can get soymilk, and some meat analogs that are fortified with B-12. Look on the label and see if it says it contains "vitamin B-12" or it may be listed by its name "cyanocobalamine." Once source of all B vitamins is Red Star T-6635+ nutritional yeast (1-2 teaspoons supplies the adult RDA of B-12). It can be called Fleishman's yeast flakes or nutritional yeast or food yeast. It can be used on toast, in soups, casseroles, beans (especially lentils), and is a primary ingredient in cashew "cheese". It can be found in almost any health food store. Just be careful not to confuse it with brewer's yeast. They are not the same thing. While both are dead yeasts, meaning they can no longer work as leavening or fermenting agents, brewer's yeast is grown on alcoholic beverages, nutritional yeast is grown on molassas and has a mild flavor.
Hope this helps a little, Linda
I have just read the responses in the other thread on the Vegan Diet and I fully agree with the statement in SOP on the adequate nutrition provided in Fruits, nuts, grains and vegetables. However, when the question is put to me by non-SDA persons it is hard to answer. I have a Director who made the full change to vegetarianism and he and his wife had been examined by their physician and told to use supplements or go back to fish, etc for B-12. He asked me about it and I would like to go back to him with some research info that backs SOP.
Anyway, I am wondering which of these two threads I should continue in. I will wait to see. Again, Linda and Suzanne please forgive my last slipup.
I have some friends who have been on a on-going study of Adventist since the early 60's. This study has been funded in large by the federal government over these years. Perhaps someone else know what I am talking about.
What this study produced is the new triangle arangements of the food lists that shows that meat should be a very small portion of your food and the increase to 20 to 30 grams of fiber a day.
What this study has found, I wish I knew how to find the report. My friends are on the road and cannot get it from them.
But that Adventist Vegetarians outlived secular vegans by four years.
Overall Adventist outlived all groups by far.
So Richard is right, some vegetarians may include in their diet things that Adventist don't and that is why they live longer.
Someone who reviewed this report also came to the conclusion that resting on the Sabbath does make a significant difference in health and well being overall was found. That is why there has been in resent years the encourgement for employers to give people more R&R days off.
I will also ask my friend about b-12.
Liane
I might suggest a good resource for you as you study this subject and others of a similar nature. (Sister Suzanne does a very good job here). Uchee Pines, in my estimation has been blessed as they have striven to follow the counsels we have been given. The single greatest blessing to come to my family through the human channel since becoming a Seventh-day Adventist has been the help I have received from Drs. Agatha and Calvin Thrash who founded the ministry.
God has richly blessed their work. While being faithful to the light we have been given, they are in such demand in the church that they have little time to visit with us. Dr. Calvin has been online here a few times.
You will find their link in the Web Sites forum. Other good sources include Weimar and Wildwood. Also, Phylis Austin has done a very good work that you will appreciate. She has done a lot of research in many of the areas of concern in natural remedies and preventive medicine. SCIENCE/HEALTH ABSTRACTS can be found at http://www.tagnet.org/abstracts/search.html
Good searching! :)
Richard
"My wife handed me a Norweigian newspaper. The English Snynopsis as follows:
"Children who are vegan have reduced intelligence and memory because they do not obtain enough Vitamin B-12, according to a new Norweigian study. Although that does not mean that parents should stop making their children eat vegetables, the results of the Norweigian-Dutch study are discouraging; a lack of the vitamin can lead to serious neurological damage. The study involvd 48 seemingly healthy vegan children.
--0--
Liane - 10-2-2000
They should read what Dr. Thrash has to say about that. I think she would disagree.
--0--
Richard Myers - 10-2-2000
It is a wonderful thing to have a Bible and also the writings of a modern day prophet. There is much to fear without God, but nothing to fear with Him. Daniel showed the benefit of following God rather than man.
The healthiest and most intelligent people I know are strict vegetarians--third generation in some cases. Now, to be a strict vegetarian is not to guarantee good health and intelligence; there is much more required for good health than not eating diseased animal products.
There are some strict vegetarians that use drugs on a daily basis and during pregnancy. There are others who drink coffee and tea and beer, etc. There are some, not many, who smoke. Many studies are quite flawed and draw false conclusions. It happens every day.
In order to have good health, one must follow all the light, not just part of it. If children continue to eat things that are not healthful, and do not eat what is necessary, they will not have good health even if they do not eat animal products.
I am not up to date on the studies of SDAs, but I would suggest looking at these studies first since it is there where you will find those that have been granted the light from on high in regards to good health.
I suppose the devil has his counterfeits with strict vegetarians as well as in the other areas of religious matters. I know that there are some who are strict vegetarians and say that fruit is unhealthful. I don't suppose their children are goind to be very smart or healthy. We can praise Jesus for the wisdom He has given to His people and to the world.
Let us remember that the world is as it was at the time of Noah and most of the children in this world are suffering in consequence. To eliminate unhealthful animal products is a good start, but cannot make one healthy while violating the laws of health.
--0--
Richard Myers - 1-7-2000
It is a blessing to have an opportunity to address the concern for the health of our children. Ir is for their sake that I cannot remain silent. While there are some that will resist any effort to change their own lifestyle, there are others who will gladly walk in the light of reform and especially so for the sake of their children. My concern goes beyond what we do with our lives, but moves to our responsibility to help others who are ignorant of the light we have been given.
Over one hundred years ago, God sent light that SOON we would have to give up all animal products. I am thankful for that light and feel a great responsibility to help others see the danger of continuing the use of any animal product, especially those that have children. Many in the church remain silent so as to not offend anyone; I cannot. All I have to do is to think of the number of children being diagnosed with cancer and I feel compelled to speak up.
What do I believe the great danter is in using animal products? My greatest concern is for the health of newborns that have weak immune systems. For them to ingest animal flesh, animal milk, or eggs I beleive is to increase their chances greatly for contracting infectious diseases including cancer, and especially leukemia.
Leukemia is a leading killer of children under age 12. In the United States the dairy herds are infected with the bovine leukemia virus.
How sick have the animals become? One need only pick up a newspaper and before long he will read of another outbreak of E-coli poisoning from some form of cattle contamination. Even fresh apple juice is now suspect because of the danger existing that an apple fell into a field contaminated by E-coli from cattle.
This is a very serious subject and one that needs to be carefully and prayerfully studied out. We may repent of our wrong actions, but many times this will not reverse what happens as a result of what we have done.
Again, removing animal products from one's diet does not assure good health, it is only one area that needs to be addressed. If one continues to smoke, he will not obtain good health. I could go on and on, but I think you will understand my point. We need to learn more and then walk in the light we have. God will bless our desire to present to Him a healthy body and mind and the world will know that we are His children. He will have witnesses of the goodness of His ways.
--0--
Michelle - 10-7-2000
I had raised this question a while back with no replies. What does Dr. Thrash have to say about it? Where can I find this out?
The article I read was from Honolulu Star Bulletin, and here is a quote from the article:
"Screening studies report that about one out of 7 people 65 years and older are deficient in B-12. An Australian study published last year reported that 73 percent of 245 SDA ministers who were consuming a vegetarian diet has serum B-12 levels below recommended levels. With this high incidence, it is surprising that there isn't a national screening program for B-12 status in the older population."
My question is not should we be eating animal products or not. My question is, how do we deal with this situation if we are vegatarian or vegan? (Besides vitamin supplements?)
The URL for the article I read is:
http://star bulletin.com/2000/09/13/features/health.html
Suzanne Sutton - 10-10-2000
Brothers and sisters, a vegetarian/vegan diet is indeed adequate for all our health needs. The American Dietetic Association informs us that appropriately planned vegetarian diets are healthful, are nutritionally adequate, and provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases.
They go on to point out that well-planned vegan and lacto-ovo vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including during pregnancy and lactation. Appropriately planned vegan and lacto-ovo-vegetarian diets satisfy nutrient needs of infants, children, and adolescents and promote normal growth. They do mention that all vegan children should have a reliable source of vitamin B-12 and, if sun exposure is limited, vitamin D supplements or fortified foods should be used.
(The American Dietetic Association's web site on this subject is:
www.eatright.org/adap1197.html).
The B-12 question has indeed been a source of concern. I and family do take a supplement although I have articles that point out that a truly correct vegan diet with enough fiber and raw green vegetables, B-12 can be synthesized in the small intestines. Of couse, whole grains, fruits and nuts ar necessary to round out a correct diet. Many vegetarians/vegans favor certain processed, depleted foods over others and may not be getting adequate amounts of these basics. Others may not utilize a wide variety of the many fruits and vegetables available--favoring a limited few over a healthy variety. The point is that we should utilize a wide variety of the many fruits and vegetables that are available.
The "more sure word of prophecy," informs us that "in grains, fruits, vegetables, and nuts are to be found ALL the food elements that we need. If we will come to the Lord in simplicity of mind, He will teach us how to prepare wholesome food free from the taint of flesh meat." --Counsels on Diet and Food, p. 310.
Inspiration also points out that "grains, fruits, nuts, and vegetables constitute the diet chosen for us by our Creator. These foods, prepared in as simple and natural a manner as possible, are the most healthrul and nourishing. They impart a strength, a power of endurance, and a VIGOR OF INTELLECT, that are not afforded by a more complex and stimulating diet." CDF:313.
Shall we not believe the prophet and implement the health program God has designed for us?
--0--
Liane - 10-11-2000
This is what Dr. Thrash says in her book, "Nutrition for Vegetarians," 1982.
It has been believed that only animal products contain suffiient quantities of vitamin B-12 to meet human needs. This is not the case, and many pure vegetarians live a lifetime without evidence of B-12 deficiency. We believe that if it is searched for the cause of B-12 deficiency can always be found in some other quarter than the absence of animal products in the diet.
We should point out that B-12 deficiency is a very rare disorder, and the overwhelming majority of cases occur in non-vegetarians.
Vitamin B-12 was isolated in 1948. Merck and company is holder of various patients of procedures for producing B-12 and owns the product claim. In 1951, 48 pounds of B-12 were produced.
There are several vegetarian food sources of B-12. While these sources may not be constant, it appears that they occur with sufficient frequency to supply the minute quantities of B-12 that are needed by those who are not abusing their health.
These include wheat, soybeans, various common greens, olives, fruits and many other foods that ocasionally have B-12 either in or on the food. It is difficult to avoid B-12.
A further source of B-12 is bacterial growth in the mouth (around the teeth and gums), in the nasopharynx, around the tonsils and tonsillar crypts, in the folds at the base of the tongue, and in the upper bronchial tree. Up to 0.5 micrograms daily can be obtained from this source. It is likely that this source alone will supply sufficient quantities of B-12 for the very small requirement that a pure vegetarian has, (especially considering his low protein intake) which further reduces the need for B-12.
It has also been shown that some bacteria which may colonize the small intestine of man can synthesize considerable amounts of biologically active forms of the B-12.
Individuals taking conventional diets need only about 0.1 micrograms of B-12 per day.
It is quite likely that vegan diets would require no nmore than 0.05 micrograms of B-12 per day.
High doses of vitamin C, destroy substantial amounts of B-12.
This gives you a general idea regarding vitamin B-12. Hope it helps.
--end of transfer.
Richard
Just wanted to let you folks know that the health issues that the Director and his wife (of the previous company I worked for) is the only thing that gave us an opportunity to discuss Adventism and religion in general. The B-12 issue is the one thing helping me to keep contact with him even though I have left that company. So share on folks, it's a blessing to others.
I have copied that last post to him yesterday.
------------------
Maranatha
So we here have a differenc of opinion from Dr. Thrash to Dr. Crane, both SDA's.
I take one once a week at 1000mcg. It can't hurt.
Liane
Vitamin B-12 Deficiency May Be a
Serious Concern For Vegetarians
October 10, 2000
Silver Spring, Maryland, USA .... [Bettina Krause]
Vegetarians should be particularly aware of the need to consume the
minimum daily requirement of vitamin B-12, by either choosing
B-12-rich foods or taking supplements, says Stoy Proctor, a health
spokesperson for the Seventh-day Adventist Church worldwide.
Proctor's comments come in response to a recently published
Australian study of 245 Seventh-day Adventist pastors who follow a
vegetarian diet. The study found that 73 percent of the pastors had
unacceptably low levels of vitamin B-12.
"There are a number of factors at play here," says Proctor. "One
obvious reason for low B-12 levels is insufficient daily intake through
food-not eating enough non-fat or low-fat dairy products each day."
"However, what many people don't realize," adds Proctor, "is that
once we enter our 50's, our bodies start losing the ability to
metabolize, or absorb, B-12 as efficiently as before. It is at this point
that it may be advisable to take supplements or to ensure increased
intake of B-12-fortified foods."
Vitamin B-12, an essential vitamin which was only identified by
science in 1947, is derived almost exclusively from animal food
products such as dairy foods or meat. "The amount we need every
day is only 2.5 micrograms-an amount about the size of a pin
head-but we do need it," says Proctor. "Our recommendation is that
vegetarians consume a moderate, balanced diet, which includes about
three non-fat or low-fat servings of dairy food each day." Total
vegetarians, known as vegans, need to be especially aware of the
potential problem and either choose B-12-fortified cereals and other
foods, or take supplements, says Proctor.
B-12 is essential to the maintenance of a healthy nervous system.
Symptoms of deficiency can range from memory problems, numbness
or tingling in the feet, fingers, and hands, fatigue, depression, or
blurring of vision. In extreme cases, prolonged deficiency can lead to
death.
Proctor notes that although getting enough B-12 is an important
consideration for vegetarians, the overall health benefits of a
vegetarian lifestyle are still undisputed. He points to Loma Linda
University's Adventist Health Study, which has involved more that
35,000 Adventists over a 30-year period. Results from the study
continue to demonstrate the benefits of a balanced vegetarian diet in a
range of health areas, including lower rates of some forms of cancer,
fewer incidence of diabetes, and lower mortality rates due to heart
disease.
2) the fact that our metabolism is slowing down as we age.
My only question is, what else is consistent about the participants in the study beside the report that they did not use "meat" (vegetarians). Some people do not consider fish as meat.
Still God's word is true :
SOP - "in grains, fruits, vegetables, and nuts are to be found ALL the food elements that we need. If we will come to the Lord in simplicity of mind, He will teach us how to prepare wholesome food free from the taint of flesh meat." --Counsels on Diet and Food, p. 310.
In support of that truth, It seems that Dr. Thrash has solid information in the posting above (quote from Dr. Thrash - Nutrition for Vegetarians)
------------------
Maranatha
The more protein, expecially from flesh foods, the more B-12 you need.
Also in this study by Proctor, one would need to know all the variables of the people in the study, which we do not have.
For the time being, I guess I will take my little B-12 once a week until I know more, I am going to write Dr. Thrash for more update information since this book.
Liane
If we want to know the truth, then do a study on those that are Seventh-day Adventists that are strict vegetarians. Do not take their b-12 levels, but instead test them as the Babylonians did Daniel and his friends. Also, keep track of the diseases they have and die from. Then the truth will be known about b-12 and strict vegetarians that walk in the light of God's grace.
Does this mean that we should not study and become knowlegable about our needs? No. But we ought to do so in the light of what God has said and not what man has said that contradicts God. That we should find the chief arguments against God's ways coming from His church is a cause for deep concern.
I want to take a moment to put this into proper context. If the light God has given on the dangers of animal products is rejected, what are the consequences? Many, but I will not address the spiritual now, but only the physical. I am distressed because the failure to walk in the light will cause many children who are innocent to suffer. I am bold in what I say on their behalf. They will be needlessly exposed to a multitude of diseases, most dangerously to cancer. Leukemia virus is rampant in many dairy herds today.
You say there is no danger? Then you either don't think the cattle have cancer or you don't think that their cancer can be transferred to your children. That cancer is in the milk is a fact that is easily discovered. There in not any evidence the cancer in animals cannot be spead to humans. For those that have confidence in God and His counsels we have this statement found in Child Guidance on page 382: "Flesh was never the best food; but its use is now doubly objectionable, since disease in animals is so rapidly increasing. Those who use flesh foods little know what they are eating. Often if they could see the animals when living and know the quality of the meat they eat, they would turn from it with loathing. People are continually eating flesh that is filled with tuberculous and cancerous germs. Tuberculosis, cancer, and other fatal diseases are thus communicated."
A solemn thought in the light of what Seventh-day Adventist children are eating and drinking. Shall we forget about those children that are not Seventh-day Adventist? How does God look at the situation?
What shall we do? We can turn and never come back to view such things, but it will not make the truth disappear. Or, we can share the light that others might live. :)
In His love and grace, Richard
It is from a company: Natural Organics Labs., Inc. called Nature's Plus.
It is a chewable muli-vit & mineral with WHOLE FOOD CONCENTRATES. No chemicals.
It indicates 50mcg of B-12. I was told that if you are going to take a multi vitamin and mineral suppliment, that it is better to get the chewable, because they digest better in the system.
The company is based in Amityville, NY.
What do you all think? I bought it, because the b-12 I was taking was lactose, never noticed it, but becaus my friend said to get the TwinLabs, I looked at my bottle of b-12, I became informed.
Liane
Continuing on the B-12 theme, here is more info. Pastor George Malkmus, originator of THE HALLELUJAH DIET, has much to say regarding B-12. Twenty years ago he beat colon cancer by following a vegetarian diet which included plenty of carrot juice. Here are excerps from his web page on the subject:
VITAMIN B-12 AND THE HALLELUJAH DIET, by Michael Donaldson, Ph.D.
* Though the requirements are very low, deficiencies among vegetarians have been noted.
* Healthy vegans with a healthy bowel flora should produce B-12 in their small intestine. This may be the natural way God intended for us to receive our B-12, but our study showed that this was not a reliable and sufficient source of B-12. All people produce B-12 in their colon, but this is not available for the body since B-12 is absorbed in the small intestines.
* Sublingual tablets or low dose sprays are the best delivery forms of B-12 supplements; swallowed tablets are not as effective.
* Methylcobalamin, a form of B-12, marketed by Enzymatic Therapy as "Bio-Active B-12, is made from fermented plants and is an inexpensive, vegetarian product. Also, nutritional yeast (Red Star Vegetarian Support Formula) is fortified with an adequate amount of B-12 and is a good source of other B vitamins, trace minerals, and other nutrients as well. Many vegans have found this to be an aceptable and reliable source of B-12.
* A simple urine assay can be done through the mail with the Norman Clinical Laboratory, Inc. (Cincinnati, OH: 1-800-397-7408, $70). The urinary MMA assay is very specific for B-12 and much more reliable than a serum B-12 assay. If anyone has doubts about their B-12 status this is the lab test to order. Your physician can order this commonly available test for you as well.
* There are several ways to get your B-12 but you must get it in your diet or ensure that your body makes it. You will not have excellent health without it.
This article is followed by 35 references that should be of interest to all.
We should indeed be thankful that this is the season for fresh, raw nuts. I purchased some delicious walnuts, and Brazil nuts last week. We also always have raw almonds on hand. And don't forget pecans, macadamias and the various seeds--sunflower, sesame, pumpkin, etc. A small handful a day is sufficient.
Nuts and seeds, the most potent of all foods help us stay young physically, mentally and sexually, while offering a jolt of heart healthy monounsaturated or omega-3 fats, vitamin E, magnesium and copper. Brazil nuts have 250 times more selenium than any other food.
Back to B-12. I received this e-mail from Christa: "Where do the animals whose meat some people eat (all herbivores) get their B-12. Vitamin B-12 is found in plants in very small amounts. But the way that B-12 is secured primarily is from that produced in the body. The stomach secretes a substance called "intrinsic factor", which transports B-12 created by the bacterial flora in our intestines. The B-12 myth is part and parcel of the entire protein myth. Supposedly we will perish without meat and dairy products. Our actual need for B-12 is so minute that it is measured in micrograms or nanograms. One milligram of B-12 will last you over 2 years and healthy individuals usually carry around a 5 year supply.
But here's the rub: Putrefation hampers the secretion of "intrinsic factor" in the stomach and retards the produiction of B-12. Because meat tends to take so long to move through our digestive tracts, it begins to decompose long before it is expelled. So flesh-eaters are more apt to develop a B-12 deficiency than vegetarians! This has been known for some time and was discussed in a report entitled "Vitamins of the B Complex," in the 1959 United States Department of Agriculture Yearbook. The propaganda states just the opposite. --end of article.
Let's continue to study this subject and share the info we gather. Good health to all.
Isn't God good to give us such important information in the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy! To tell us what we ought to eat. It would seem that in the end, it will be a matter of faith. Will we trust in God with everything or shall we trust in man and his laws?
In His love and grace, Richard
"The vitamin can be synthesized in the intestines when adequate amounts of unheated seeds and nuts are eaten."
Putrificaction hampers the intric factor.
Intrinsic factor is produced in the intestines.
Seems like the PH in the digestive tract would also have a strong influence on the bacteria quality/growth and therefore the presence of the intrinsic factor. I have read that fruits aid in supporting the PH as well as the environment for the intestinal bacteria.
Seems like relationships that support SOP statement that in fruits, nuts, grains and vegetables are found all that our bodies require.
Intrinsic factor is produced by bacteria in the small intestine at a point just before it enters the large intestine. Whatever God does is perfect and this may be his way of putting the temperance law in here since our daily requirement is small.
Am I making the right relationships here?
[This message has been edited by Curt (edited 10-21-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Curt (edited 10-21-2000).]
----------------------------
David Wolfe's book,
"The Sunfood Diet Success System." Following are some quotes
that I found extremely interesting in his book:
"Although animal and dairy products are a source of vitamin
B-12, the natural soil microbes and bacteria found on wild
food, unwashed garden plants, and also those supplied by
plant fermentation are typically adequate to supply the body
with vitamin B-12 needs. The natural microbes and bacteria
in the soil need to be duplicated and colonize in our
intestinal tract for optimal absorption of nutrients. . . .
Vitamin B-12 is produced by these natural microbes and
bacteria as they colonize the intestines.
"A problem with the formation of B-12 occurs when there is a
sterilization which happens between the picking of the fruit
or vegetable and the moment it reaches the mouth. Sterile
environments are unnatural. The soil microbes and bacteria,
which grow on raw fruits and vegetables, need to be
duplicated in the intestinal tract for the proper
assimilation of vitamin B-12 to take place.
"Dr. Victor Herbert described in the AMERICAN JOURNAL OF
CLINICAL NUTRITION (1988, volume 48, p. 852-858) the
experiences of Dr. James Halsted, who traveled to Persia to
study a colony of Iranian vegans who did not experience any
vitamin B-12 deficiencies. He found that their naturally
fertilized vegetables were eaten without being carefully
washed. He discovered that strict vegetarians who do not
practice thorough hand washing or vegetable cleaning may be
untroubled by a vitamin B-12 deficiency.
"Studies have shown that those eating a typical diet of
animal products actually require more vitamin B-12 than
those who do not eat animal products. This is because the
typical diet leads to digestive atrophy. Because vitamin B-
12 is peptide bound in animal products and must be
enzymatically cleaved from the peptide bonds to be absorbed,
a weakening of all gastric acid and gastric enzyme
secretions (due to a cooked food diet) causes an inability
to efficiently extract vitamin B-12 from external food. Raw-
food vegans, who have more powerful digestion, actually get
more vitamin B-12 reabsorption from the bile (liver
secretions into the duodenum) than they do from external
food.
"Sugar . . . is an antibiotic. So a long-term high-sugar diet
. . . coming from refined sources . . . can damage or wipe
out the intestinal flora. Cooking also destroys microbes. A
highly-sterilized cooked-vegan diet may not provide the
intestines with enough excellent flora.
"To ensure an excellent quality of vitamin B-12, be sure to
eat some unwashed garden plants--more is better. Leave foods
unwashed that were grown wildly, homegrown, or picked by you
from an organic farm. Store-bought food is much different,
it should be washed because it can be loaded with mold,
pollution, and toxins."
We know that antibiotics destroys the good bacteria as well as the bad.
It all makes sense to me now.
Liane
Thought provoking article though.
By the way,
thanks for all the information and references in this thread. I summarized the points and references and emailed them to my friend. He and his wife have been going to the ABC to buy their non-meat products and I suggested they get Dr. Thrash's book there also. He made a joke with me some time ago saying that I now have him going to our store and next I will be looking to baptize him ;-}. I just laughed with him.
Tuesday January 8 1:37 PM ET
Vitamin B Supplements Exceed Safe Levels: Report
NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - Some vitamin B supplements may contain more than the recommended amount of the nutrients, according to a new report by ConsumerLab.com.
ConsumerLab.com, a commercial testing company in White Plains, New York, conducted the study. For a fee, the company licenses its flask-shaped ``Seal of Approved Quality'' to companies whose products pass testing.
``Consumers should be aware that more than 40% of the products that we evaluated exceeded levels at which they are known to be safely tolerated--some having more than 10 times the upper limit,'' said Dr. Tod Cooperman, ConsumerLab.com's president, in a prepared statement from the company.
ConsumerLab.com tested 21 B vitamin supplement products. Some contained a single dose of a particular B vitamin while others included several. The eight B vitamins are thiamine (B-1), riboflavin (B-2), niacin (B-3), pantothenic acid (B-5), pyridoxine (B-6), cyanocobalamin (B-12), folic acid (folate) and biotin.
Nine of the 21 products exceeded established Tolerable Upper Intake Levels (ULs) for adults--''above which there is increased risk for side effects with regular use,'' according to the report.
ULs are established by the Institute of Medicine (news - web sites) of the National Academies.
The report notes that three of the niacin-only products exceeded the UL for niacin as did six of the seven B complex products. The UL for niacin is 35 milligrams (mg), while these products included recommended daily doses ranging from 400 mg to 510 mg.
``There may be good medical reasons for exceeding these levels, but there may also be significant side effects,'' Cooperman warns. ``People interested in using high doses of B vitamins should consult with a healthcare professional.''
In addition to those findings, ConsumerLab.com reports that one of the B complex products contained amounts of the nutrients lower than what was stated on the label.
The findings underscore the fact that vitamin supplements may benefit from tighter regulation.
Vitamin B dietary supplements are becoming increasingly popular due to last year's decision by the US Food and Drug Administration (news - web sites) to allow manufacturers to tout recent findings about the ability of B vitamins to reduce vascular disease risk.
I will be watching this site for more information. I am a vegan, 69 years of age, in good health, and want to stay that way.
Thank you again.
Dora
Last Friday she received a large dose of injected B-12. In less than three hours I began seeing small changes, She became first calmer, then her chat was more and more structured. Later that evening she began more complex discourses and her recall of detail increased significantly over the prevoius weeks experience. We have struggled with her for the past few months to convince her that she was not under attack by anyone and that her experience was more in her head than real. I was finally able to get her to sit down and listen to me helping her to understand her past situation, present condition and layout a possible plan to get her back on her feet again and off the Respiradone which she was given one week ago. This was now possible following the B-12 shot. The last time her vit B-12 showed high it was following a program of supplementation I gave to her because she was difficult at keeping to a broad diet. Her situation was aggravated by having a job that had her up at 4:00 each morning ready to be icked up by 5:30 each morning. Going to bed after 11:00 pm each night meant only five (5) hours or less sleep per night for some years. Such stress (or any prolonged stress)would also deplete your store of Vit B-12
I have noticed that it is harder for older people to keep on a good program if they were not in the habbit of doing so and this could be the cause of many illnesses.
She is now at my home, off the respiradone, using a herbal sleep formula called Sleep+ and getting her meals.
I posted this personal account to emphasize that while there is no proof that being a vegetarian means you are not getting B-12 in your diet, it also must be emphasized that attention must be given to your diet of fruits, nuts, grains, seeds and vegetables in as varied a combination of foods as possible. In addition to this, as you get older the sleep pattern appears to change and it becomes critical to retrain yourself to get the earlier hours of the night sleep even if you get up at 3:00 am and cannot sleep any longer. At least by that time the brain would have completed it's body maintainance and repair routines and gotten rest.
A votre Sante
[This message has been edited by Curt (edited 01-30-2002).]
"B" good
We all need B vitamins. Vitamin B is a complex of at least eight
separate water-soluble vitamins including thiamin, riboflavin,
niacin and folic acid. The Merck and Company Labs in New Jersey
announced a method to manufacture biotin, a member of the Vitamin
B complex, on May 14, 1943. Biotin is necessary for carbohydrate
and fat metabolism. A balanced diet will usually provide enough
biotin. Foods that have higher amounts of biotin include nuts,
yeast, cereals, green leafy vegetables and milk.
Copyright InteliHealth, Inc., 2002. All rights reserved.
Still, the counsel is clear that in fruits, nuts, grains and vegetables can be found ALL that our bodies require :)
In Non-ruminant plant eaters (rabbits etc.) the bacteria that produce B-12 are found in the posterior portions of the intestinal tract where the absorption is minimal. The problem is solved by eating what's coming out in the other end. Short of this practise (coprophagy) humans must get B-12 from the diet. Vegan-vegetarians have a high consumption of fibre, and thus a higher concentration of bacteria in the lower portions of the small intestine where B-12 can still be absorbed. "The more alkaline the diet, the higher the intestinal bacterial concentration will be", he writes. As far as I know, the fermentation which arises by combining fruits and vegetables at the same meal will produce an acid environment unsuitable for these bacteria.
Veith also mentions that "when purchasing fortified foods or supplements, it is important to note that the product contains cobalamin, and not some analouge of the vitamin", which may make matters worse because it may interfere with normal absorption of cobalamin (he mentions fermented soy food such as tempeh and spirulina).
Allan F
Richard
I starting crushing them to a power and blending it with ornge juice and drinking it down. (taste is ok with ornge juice but needs to go down before settling) This gets into the system right away as I really feel the change with more pep and sharpness of mind. Remembering to take it is my problem, but it sure works better taking it this way. :)
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With Christian Love,
Sister Glass
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Clive Nevell
posted 09-26-2005 12:29 PM
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I do not know if this subject has already come up here or not.
Recently at our Camp in South Queensland the issue of lack of B12 in the average Adventist diet was brought up in one of the afternoon workshops.
The presenter was Dr Bevan Hokin from the Sydney Adventist Hospital.
He said that 90% of vegans were lacking in B12 from the resluts of a recent survey. As well many vegatarians were also lacking in B12.
Most people that went into nursing homes also lacked B12.
He said it is a must for vegans to suppliment their dietry intake with a good brand of vitamin B12.
As for vegetarians and those over 65 years of age he suggested they do the same.
I am wondering how members here get their B12 and if they use suppliments.
Apparently anything less than a result of 260 a person should be taking suppliments to bring B12 up to the required levels.
Clive
>>>>
JimB
posted 09-26-2005 01:05 PM
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Brother Clive, there are people on here that I'm sure will have a better answer to your question. I've often wondered this myself. If B12 is a must for the human body then there must be a way to get it outside of animal sources. I've heard that brewers yeast has B12 in it and that some people lightly sprinkle their popcorn with it. But don't take my word for it. I've also heard that our bodies also produce B12.
Hopefully, someone here will either correct or confirm this and maybe even have some better sources of B12.
This really is a very important topic for SDA's and in particular those who are vegetarians and even more important for vegans.
Let's try and find out as much as we can on this topic.
It means a lot me as during Camp a few weeks ago the local hospital called my wife and told her to pass a message onto me to start a course using a good quality of multi vitamins with B12 in. My B12 is on the low side of average and they want it to be built up more than it is.
That is why I am now showing more interest in it now than before.
Clive
The unofficial "official" SDA stance is a lacto-ovo vegetarian. I have talked this over with physicians within Adventism and have been told this has come down through channels. There was especially a case in Australia where an Adventist couple were being tried for child abuse over the family diet (vegan) and a medical condition of the child which resulted in death. While I don't know the whole story and believe it is possible that this couple may have been somewhat fanatical in their extremes (did they not get some kind of medical advice?) the church distanced themselves from them and pronounced them as "fanatics". It was at this time I first read that the "official" church stance was lacto-ovo despite EGW's statements to the contrary and the medical effects of dairy in the diet.
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Bill Wennell
USDA Meat & Poultry Inspector
bible4u@localnet.com
[This message has been edited by Bill Wennell (edited 09-27-2005).]
quote:This has always been my gut feeling. However, even those who run or work in some of our "lifestyle centers" have not been able to tell me exactly what these plant sources are. I would love to know not only for my own benefit but for when I'm having these kinds of discussions with other people.
The truth is that we can get our B12 from the same place other all vegetarian animals do, from plant sources.
http://www.notmilk.com/vitaminb12.html
http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/b12.htm
In short, if you're worried about take a supplement or make sure you eat some fortified foods - especially if pregnant or nursing.
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Bill Wennell
USDA Meat & Poultry Inspector
bible4u@localnet.com
According to Dr Bevan Hokin who took the workshop at Camp he said you cannot get enough from plant sources. You would have to eat something like 10kg's of mushrooms daily to get your supply of B12.
He also said that mushrooms are plants that have the most B12 in them so the rest just about have nothing in them.
A survey was done with vegans that showed 90% were short of B12 and about half of vegetarians were also. Then about 40% of people over the age of 65 were also short on B12.
So it seems there is a much greater problem for Adventsits with low B12 than we have been aware of in the past.
Clive
I did and I am low and need to take something so it can be built up.
Clive
"in grains, fruits, vegetables, and nuts are to be found ALL the food elements that we need. If we will come to the Lord in simplicity of mind, He will teach us how to prepare wholesome food free from the taint of flesh meat." --Counsels on Diet and Food, p. 310.
The question is DO YOU BELIEVE IT? Not do you pay lip service to it but DO YOU BELIEVE IT? You don't have to understand it or debate it. The study mentioned that 90% of vegans have low B12 levels is UNSUBSTANTIATED even if it came from the highest medical source man can supply. There are other studies that state just the opposite. So again the question is, which do you believe?
The truth is that B12 is needed in miniscule amounts and can be destroyed by unhealthy eating. So what we see is that you can claim to be vegetarian (vegan) and your B12 will diminish if you are not eating properly. But if you are, don't worry about it!
The leadership within SDA is trying to get you to be "lacto-ovo" and they are using scare tactics to do it. Once again, do you believe science? leadership? or the Spirit of Prophecy? I don't read anywhere in the writings where she worried about B12 or even hinted at a "strange vitamin that we need to get from outside sources".
Eat right and trust in God!
"Thus it was that the wise men of this world talked of science and the fixed laws of nature, and declared that there could be no variation in these laws, and that the message of Noah (or Ellen White in this case) could not possibly be true. The talented men of Noah's (or our) time set themselves in league AGAINST GOD's WILL AND PURPOSE and scorned the message and the messenger that He had sent... Noah (or us) COULD NOT CONTROVERT THEIR PHILOSOPHIES, OR REFUTE THE CLAIMS OF SCIENCE SO CALLED; BUT HE (or we) COULD PROCLAIM THE WORD OF GOD; for he knew it contained the infinite wisdom of the Creator, and, as he sounded it everywhere, it lost none of its force and reality because men of the world treated him with ridicule and contempt" (Relecting Christ, page 323 - excerpted from Signs of the Times, April 18, 1895)
God said it, I believe it. I don't have to be able to refute it coming from a so called doctor, if he is going against the counsel of the Spirit of Prophecy. If this doctor's point is to take care with your B12 level, I can live with that. But what was his summation? That we HAVE to eat fortified (processed) foods? That we NEED animal products (dairy or others)? That a total plant based diet is inadequate? If so, its time to switch him off!
By the way, set B12 levels may be set too high as they are based on a majority level of which the majority are meat/dairy eaters, not "normal" levels.
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Bill Wennell
USDA Meat & Poultry Inspector
bible4u@localnet.com
[This message has been edited by Bill Wennell (edited 09-28-2005).]
It's like the people that argue over breastmilk. They say/said that there wasn't enough B-12 in breastmilk (as well as iron and other things) because it was found in such miniscule amounts. But what research has found is that that little bit that the body produces in the milk is just the right amount and is used far more efficiently and in the right way than supplemented formula.
If we believe that we can't get our nutrition from plant sources alone, then we negate the creation story because we must not believe that God created us to function perfectly without meat products. (and yes I agree foods are less nutritious and stripped of their goodness nowadays, but it can be done!)
Further source of B-12 is bacterial growth in the mouth, around the teeth and gums, nasopharynx, the tonsils and base of the tongue and the upper bronchial tree. Up to 0.5 micrograms daily can be obtained from this source. Low protein intake further reduces the need for B-12.
Also, she states that chewing properly, leaving plenty of time between meals and not eating large varieties of food at any one meal are important for the apsorption of B-12.
In the Newstart book it is stated of B-12: B-12 is manufactured by bacteria and certain algae. In needs to be in the food, combined in the mouth with a chemical, and then exchanged for an "intrinsic factor" from the stomach so that it can be absorbed in the last 6 to 8 feed of the small intestine. A high protein or low fat diet demands more B-12. It states for adults that 3 micrograms is required. It states recommend 50-500 mcg chewed in food once a week.
Liane, the Zoo Mama
[This message has been edited by liane (edited 09-29-2005).]
Interesting as high homocysteines in some cases indicate that there maybe problems with the heart.
Check this link out.
http://www.quackwatch.org/03HealthPromotion/homocysteine.html
"Caution: Elevated homocysteine levels can be caused by vitamin B12 deficiency due to impaired absorption of B12 caused by gastric atrophy (damage to the lining of the stomach). B12 deficiency leads to anemia and, if not corrected in time, will permanently damage the nervous system. Folic acid supplements will correct the anemia (which can serve as a warning sign before nerve damage develops), but they do not prevent the damage. For this reason, people over 50 who take folic acid supplements should also take at least 25 micrograms of vitamin B12 per day, a dose large enough to enable adequate amounts to be absorbed. Dr. Herbert believes that everyone over age 50 should take B12 supplements anyway, because gastric atrophy is common as people age. Products containing 100 mcg per pill are readily available." (Taken from the above link)
Clive
What is the solution to the problem? If we were to study the light God has given to us as a people we would quickly understand what causes damage to the lining of the stomach. God would have us deal with the underlying problem which usually means self-control.
Bill made a point earlier on which we should not miss
"By the way, set B12 levels may be set too high as they are based on a majority level of which the majority are meat/dairy eaters, not "normal" levels."
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With the levels, we are dealing with research based uround benchmarking from general population studies of meat eaters. It is similar with Iron deficiencies. For us Caribbean people we seem to always be lower in the range when tested which would cause us to use more Iron based upon medical advice when in North America. We also need to better understand the critical balance between our nutrients. As also stated previously, high protein intake also lowers the B-12 absorption as it does with Calcium.
Again a quote from an earlier post "We should point out that B-12 deficiency is a very rare disorder, and the overwhelming majority of cases occur in non-vegetarians."
With lower protein intake and protein intake of a food based variety, vegetarians have been known to have better absorption of nutrients than meat eaters. To me this says that a small amount will go a long way, faster.
B-12 deficiency is the only case against vegetarians that for some unknown reason seems to stay around and also unfortunately the church is scared of being branded for upholding the Lords directive.
B-12 like other nutrients is needed in minute quantities. Why is there not a fuss about other micronutrients that we lack?
The bottom line is that we are all concerned about our status of health and when confronted by the Doctor that our B-12 is low, we have no way to refute it by quoting supporting evidence in terms of quantity, that the level is correct based upon a study of vegetarians.
This thread has a lot of information in the earlier posts.
When that happens a person may need to have injections.
An Adventist scientist from the Sydney Adventist Hospital spoke at our Camp for South Queensland this year on B12.
He said that 50% of vegetarians, 90% of vegans, 50% of all people over the age on 65 were lacking in vitamin B12.
He also said the minimum requiremnet has been set too low. At present it is around 220 and he said it should be closer to 250 or 260.
Lack of B12 usually goes with high homocysteines, which maybe an indicator having problems with circulation and having a Cardiovascular Risk.
Clive
He said :
"50% of vegetarians, 90% of vegans, 50% of all people over the age on 65 were lacking in vitamin B12."
Now the question to be asked of him is. Were the persons over 65 Vegetarians, Vegans or meat eaters. Seems like something is missing here.
Normal range of B12 he also said was too low and he recommended a low range 25% higher than the standard.
Normal Range (Conventional Units) : 200-1000
Now, Bill said, and truly stated : Vegetarians should get their B12 from the same source that other vegetarian (realy vegan) animals get theirs.
While our B-12 may be lower than the norm, our Cholesterol levels are remarkably lower as well.
So, the conclusion, don't be vegetarians to have much much higher B-12 levels in the blood(not necessarily absorbed) and die younger of High Cholesterol.
[This message has been edited by Curt (edited 11-19-2005).]
Some of God's people may have a b12 deficiency, but they must look for the reason. It is not because they did not eat animal products. The explanation that science gives in this topic is a very good one. Cease to injure the lining of your stomach. God provided the information as to how you can take care of your stomach. Study the light God has given rather than listening to men who reject the plain Word of truth.
If you are interested in your health and the health of your children then read what God has said about the real dangers regarding diet. Rather than eating animal products, it is better to understand the very real risk associated with the eating of diseased animals and their products. How long have animals been so diseased that we ought to have ceased eating them? Over a hundred years ago. How long has it been since their eggs and milk have been dangerous? Well, we were told at the same time, over a hundred years ago, that "soon" we would have to give up all foods that come from animals because disease was increasing in them rapidly.
One has to wonder why the great emphasis on b12 and the neglect to consider and teach the very real danger.
The study that was done concerning over 65 having a lack of B12 was not restricted to SDA's.
If my memory is correct it was done in nursing homes in Sydney.
I do not think we should be too concerned about finding out that if we do not eat animal products then there is a very good chance that we will be lacking B12.
The best way is just go and have a check. It is only a simple blood test.
I went in and 3 months ago my B12 was 207, last week it had gone up to 330. All I did was to take a B12 suppliment that was bought in the local supermarket.
Dr Hokin told us that there is only a few suppliments that improve your B12, the rest go through without any help to you.
I was concerned that B12 was not being absorbed by my sysstem but now from the tests that I have had that is no longer a concern to me.
I also had the young kids done and they are fine.
Clive
M
Don't know for sure just how wides spread that problem is but have heard of others who have the same problem.
Now if my memory serves me correctly EGW gave advice to a person who probably had the same problem.
Her advice at the time was to use raw eggs and pure grape juice.
Apparently there is small amounts of B12 in eggs.
As long as the egg is not fried it does not do the same amount of damage that fried eggs do. Somehow when they are fried it changes the structure of the yolk and it becomes deadly to a persons blood structure.
If eggs are going to be used they should be poached or boiled. In the case that EGW was working with she said to have them raw which would be even better.
Amazing to think she was able to give this medical information to a very sick Adventist, who made a remarkable recovery many years before anyone even knew about B12.
Clive
Selected Messages Book 2, page 303, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: Ellen G. White's Use of Remedial Agencies
Grape Juice and Eggs.--I have received light that you are injuring your body by a poverty-stricken diet. . . . It is the lack of suitable food that has caused you to suffer so keenly. You have not taken the food essential to nourish your frail physical strength. You must not deny yourself of good, wholesome food.... Get eggs of healthy fowls. Use these eggs cooked or raw. Drop them uncooked into the best unfermented wine you can find. This will supply that which is necessary to your system. . . . Eggs contain properties which are remedial agencies in counteracting poisons.-- Counsels on Diet and Foods, pp. 203, 204 (To Dr. D. H. Kress, 1901).
Note the first few words of this paragraph. EGW received light on this subject. To me that means God gave it to her.
Clive
Chapter Title: Materials Used in Principles of True Science
Eggs, Used with Unfermented Wine .--I dreamed of having the care of a child that was weak, and seemed unable to rally. I thought the same physician stood by the cradle, and said, 'Have you any wine in the house? Beat up a raw egg, and give it to the child with grape wine [i.e., the
322
unfermented juice of the grape], three times each day. He will rally.'--Letter 112a, 1897
Again we see that EGW says to use raw egg with grape juice.
Clive
M
When a person is desparate they do many things they would not normally be able to do.
I have to agree I think it would probably be a real challenge.
But it makes sense, God showed to her that this is what would heal this man who had gone overboard on diet.
B12 had not been discovered and all EGW could really do was to say to use raw eggs and grape juice to fix this man's health up.
Clive
Curt here after a LONG absence. My mother's mid wife gave her eggs and grape juice when she was having me. The older folks knew about it and used this "tonic" as a blood builder. Grape Juice helps iron. The egg has lecithin which is destroyed by heat so the raw egg is better. I suspect that eggs may help build the friendly bacteria but I am not 100% sure of this.
Anyway, after two VERY stressful years in Jordan I am now relocated in Jamaica. We arrived here two days ago to start on another job and begin hunting for a house tomorrow. Since my pace of work has slowed down tremendously this year I decided to go to my Doctor in Amman and get a complete physical before travelling. She is a very knowledgable and thorough physician. Also one who supports us in our dietary choice and wish to not have certain types of drugs/medication. She would recommend alternative medications to give the same result, then leave the decision to us.
When I last wrote to you I got the results of my blood test and wanted to speak with her first before I shared my report here.
Blood works are all fine, cholesterol is VERY VERY low, iron is borderline but she was not concerned. Hepatitis ABC are negative. Colonoscopy showed a healthy colon and ultra sound showed a clinicical specimen of the the pancreas and kidney, She said it was in perfect shape. However, she said I was not drinking enough water and showed me on the ultra sound the kidney and pancreas. She also made the same comment when she looked at my colon some time before. I have been guzzling over the previous month to make up for the dry climate but apparently it was not enough.
However, my B12 was 78 and for this she was concerned. I was not feeling the usual symptoms of B12 deficiency. In discussion with her she said that to assist the B12 there needs to be foods like fish (the highest source), fruits, nuts, seeds. She suspected that it was as a result of my lack of proper daily nutrition (skipping meals) and stress. It was the long period of 14-16 hour days that did it I think. Like the Ben Carson experience without the Big Macs. I was also low on Vit C from fruits (my observation). Stress will quickly deplete one's B12 and Vitamin C.
I have other herbal based sources of B12 which I have taken in the past. Anyway I am now under observation. I am taking a few shots of B12 followed by oral B12/Coenzyme taken daily for a month then follow up tests to see levels as well as to check for absorbtion.
What I can tell you is after I took the B12 shots I began feeling the symptoms of B12 deficiency now that the levels are increasing.
Since there is no other measure/reference than what we have from research (though it is an average across a meat eating sample of population) I will have to try and stay within some fair value within the range. I still would not turn to Meat and Fish.
As for eggs and grape juice, I share Michelle's feelings on it but will try it. My mom used it and we tasted it, it may smell a bit fresh so she put a piece of lemmon skin in the blender when she made it to cut the smell and it worked a charm.
Hope this information helps you.
Curt
I would be really interested if you could keep us updated on how you respond to what you are doing to help your lack of B12.
A level of 78 seems very low, I am wondering if we are using the same same type of units as you are as mine was 207 and the Dr thought it low enough to suggest I take suppliments to correct it.
They helped because after three months the test showed it was back to 330. Still taking them and will wait for six months before I take another test.
Can you tell me if the Dr there tested you for Homocysteines?
Apparently lack of B12 goes with high Homocysteines.
Our Dr's out here generally do not suggest a blood test for that. The latest info on Homocysteines indicate that a high level is dangerous and is another indicator like colesterasl is. Have you heard about that?
Clive
Later
I know American cholesterol numbers are totally different to what we use in Australia and as yet I have not seen a conversion chart for them. They tell us here that the cholesterol should be below 5, with an aim to even get it below 4.
In America it is in the 100's so am not sure where they stand with each other.
Homocysteine level here is a max of 16 and ideal should not be over 11. B12 is low at 220 and should be around 250 to 260 at least.
Clive
On 3ABN I seen a talk which mentioned a study done in China where they found that a persons cholestral was only 3 and at that level there were far less heart attacks.
They said on 3ABN that we should be aiming for a lot lower level than what we have now.
Clive
Homocysteine, I do not have the test results or ranges for this.
I need to find a doctor in my new location and get another B-12 followup test and will update you on it.
My family has not supplemented B-12. One of our daughters has been a strict vegetarian from birth. I have been a strict vegetarian for almost 25 years. No signs of a B-12 deficiency. God knew what He was doing when He told us in the beginning what our diet ought to be.
Important to take just in case we don’t have the right bacteria in our bodies.
What form of B12 is best absorbed or does it matter?