Why do you think that Jesus used the titles “the Amen,” “the faithful and true witness,” and “the beginning of the creation of God” to address the Laodicean church?
What is the purpose of chastisement?
This is where Jesus stands in relationship to most in the Seventh-day Adventist Church today. Is He in your heart or is He knocking on the door of your heart?
As a people, we are in a lost condition even though we believe we are rich and increased with goods and in need of nothing. While this is a strong rebuke, it is also a strong encouragement in that Jesus tells us how we may be converted.
3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Commenting on Revelation 3:15-16, Ellen G. White states: “The message to the Laodicean church applies most decidedly to those whose religious experience is insipid, who do not bear decided witness in favor of the truth.”- The SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 7, p. 962. This is a fascinating statement. An insipid religious experience is one that is lifeless. It has the outer husk of Christianity but lacks the substance. It has the external form but lacks the living power. The Laodiceans are not heretics or fiery fanatics; they are, simply, spiritually indifferent. The Laodiceans appear to be good moral people. They have what Paul calls, “Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof.” 2 Tim. 3:5. Jesus speaks of religious people in His day who "draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me." Matt. 15:8.
It is a correction revealed to bring us back to right living with God. It has been my experience that God has used His word and His people to bring this about, to show me where I am off track.
What is the purpose of chastisement? Do we see this in Scripture? How about when Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness? Why did he do that? And why did the serpents come into the camp of the Israelites? Did God send them? Did Satan send them? Was 9/11 chastisement? If so, God did not do it. Share with us the underlying principles so that when God is blamed for many bad thing that are happening and are going to happen in the future, you can explain to those who think God is doing it because the Sun Day has been defiled, that He is not. It is true that God destroyed every living thing on this Earth except what was in the oceans and what was on the ark, but God did not destroy the Trade Towers. God is depending upon you and me to teach correct doctrine about His rebukes. Satan has maligned His character and continues to do so. We are to be His witnesses and teachers of the truth regarding His character. We know that God is not going to burn the wicked for eternity. The subject of the chastisement of sinners is just as important to teach correctly so that God's character is not maligned....
And when San Francisco was hit by earthquake and fire in 1906, was it God or Satan that caused this? Was it a warning or did it just happen? We cannot always tell, but we have enough light to be able to teach the truth about the character of our God.
That would be really good if we learned the first time. I don't know about others, but being chastised once did not work for me. From what I hear and see in the church, it appears that many don't learn the first, second, or third time. God is long-suffering and He continues to patiently labor with His people.
What is the purpose of chastisement?
It is a correction revealed to bring us back to right living with God. It has been my experience that God has used His word and His people to bring this about, to show me where I am off track.
What is the purpose of chastisement? Do we see this in Scripture? How about when Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness? Why did he do that? And why did the serpents come into the camp of the Israelites? Did God send them? Did Satan send them? Was 9/11 chastisement? If so, God did not do it. Share with us the underlying principles so that when God is blamed for many bad thing that are happening and are going to happen in the future, you can explain to those who think God is doing it because the Sun Day has been defiled, that He is not. It is true that God destroyed every living thing on this Earth except what was in the oceans and what was on the ark, but God did not destroy the Trade Towers. God is depending upon you and me to teach correct doctrine about His rebukes. Satan has maligned His character and continues to do so. We are to be His witnesses and teachers of the truth regarding His character. We know that God is not going to burn the wicked for eternity. The subject of the chastisement of sinners is just as important to teach correctly so that God's character is not maligned....
And when San Francisco was hit by earthquake and fire in 1906, was it God or Satan that caused this? Was it a warning or did it just happen? We cannot always tell, but we have enough light to be able to teach the truth about the character of our God.
I'm not going to pretend that I know these answers and I would like to. I have a friend who believes all these disasters in the US are God's judgments. I read an article years ago by a priest who said that 9/11 happened because Sunday is not kept holy. Richard stated that God did not destroy the trade towers and I have a tendency to lean in the same direction but I'm not sure that I could plainly state reasons from the Bible for that belief. Can one tell who causes disasters and if so how? What are the Biblical principles in discerning the truth?
However, I do not wish to high-jack this discussion on the Sabbath School to lesson to be only about this. Maybe should be discussed elsewhere?
What is Laodicea’s evaluation of herself? What is our Lord’s assessment of her? How do you think a people could be so blinded to their true spiritual condition? In what ways might we be blind regarding our own spiritual condition?
It seems to me that those who are rich and increased with goods would be the very last to think this message has any application for them. What does it mean to be rich and increased with goods? I would like to hear what others think on this.
We need to identify the problem before we can see if this has application for us personally.
Al, before I give you my 2 cents on your question I just want to say something else. I don't know anyone who likes reproof or to be rebuked. It is not a pleasant thing especially if it's truth. But for some reason and I can't put my finger on it I'm enjoying these lessons this week. While I enjoyed last quarters lessons very much I think this quarter is special.
Now on your question, Al. As I understand things people can be rich and increased with good both temporally and spiritually. When all is well temporally. When money doesn't seem to be a problem and you can afford the extras life seems very good. It's very easy sit back and think it will always be that way. When I was reading the lessons this week my mind went back to the great depression of the 30's. When the markets crashed and rich men saw their "portfolios" disappear over night many committed suicide. They never imagined a day could come where they'd have nothing and they lost all hope of recovery. Satan pulled the rug out from underneath them and they had nothing solid to stand on.
We can also be rich and increased with goods spiritually. A person can know (or posses) truth and even try to live like it. They can even have many friends who also know the truth and support each other. And believing that knowing the truth is enough they sit back and enjoy life and it's benefits. But we all know that knowing isn't enough. Even the world has a saying that says.... "now I know and knowing is half the battle". People may know that smoking cigarettes is literally killing them but that doesn't stop them from smoking. This knowledge needs to be applied to our personal lives. It needs to find practical application.
I was trying to keep this post short but one last thought. In college some courses will have 2 kinds of tests. Written and practical. In order to pass the course the student must pass both the written and practical tests.
Amen, Jim! Al, you are right. Sometimes we see things so simply that we forget that others may not. The message from Jesus is very simply stated. Most understand it and make the application elsewhere, not thinking we need to see if it applies to us. What does it mean to be "rich and increased with goods"?
I think part of the answer is given in the text in context. "Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked." "and in need of nothing" helps us to better understand what is being said about those in the church who are in a lost condition. Maybe if we work backwards it will help. When Jesus speaks to us, is He not speaking of our spiritual condition? Yes. So, when He says that the Laodicean is "in need of nothing", what does He mean? Complacent to say the least. But, we want to get to the very bottom of the truth. What is it that the Laodicean needs, that he does not have? And in a spiritual sense, what do Seventh-day Adventists have that the world and other churches do not have? Why are we "rich"?
If sincere we would have opened the door yesterday Do we ever remember that this is a heavenly merchantman? And that the goods are free? For He already paid the ransom?
We can also be rich and increased with goods spiritually. A person can know (or posses) truth and even try to live like it. They can even have many friends who also know the truth and support each other. And believing that knowing the truth is enough they sit back and enjoy life and it's benefits. But we all know that knowing isn't enough.
Wednesday
how are we to buy? How are we to receive the remedy?
I don't want to make this post to long and I am sure this still leaves us with some other thoughts. So before the day is over it might be good to spend some time on what it means to be wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked. Richard discussed this on Tuesdays lesson and some good points were made and other questions were asked.
We can also be rich and increased with goods spiritually. A person can know (or posses) truth and even try to live like it. They can even have many friends who also know the truth and support each other. And believing that knowing the truth is enough they sit back and enjoy life and it's benefits. But we all know that knowing isn't enough.
I think Jim has answered Al's question. Seventh-day Adventists are God's chosen people not because they live the truth, but because they have been entrusted with His truth. And as a people we know it. How many other Christians know the Sabbath is the seventh day and it is still binding? How many really understand that the Lamb of God is Jesus and He had to die as shadowed forth in the Hebrew sanctuary? How many know that eating pig is harmful? How many know that eating cow is harmful? How many know that drinking cow milk is harmful and causing cancer? How many know that the righteousness of Christ will not cover one unconfessed and unforsaken sin? How many know that God sent a prophet in our day? Shall I go on? There is no need to. What Jim has said is true. "A person can know (or posses) truth and even try to live like it. They can even have many friends who also know the truth and support each other." This is why we believe we are rich and increased with goods, spiritual goods, God's truth. I have a library of inspired books that few in the world have. They are in my native tongue, written in our day so that I can understand them without any difficulty. Rich is an understatement.
So, Jesus tells us that we think we are rich with these goods, but He added an important thought "and in need of nothing." Jim addressed this when he said that knowing the truth is not enough. He said that some fit this description "believing that knowing the truth is enough." They do not know they need anything else. How very sad! Such a deception. Actually, they think they know the truth, but while they understand some doctrinal matters, not being converted, they lack spiritual discernment. So even with the light shining brightly, they do not understand the gospel message. They therefor believe they are converted when in fact they have not been. Such a deception!
A similar religious group are also identified in Matthew 7:21-23 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
They make reference to their good works which they feel gives them some entitlement to enter the kingdom of heaven. Then Christ says to them "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." This is very similar to being lukewarm and being spit or vomited out of the mouth of God.
These people are very religious they use the Lord's name and they foretell future events and do mighty works for God. One main element that is lacking in their experience is they did not know Christ as a personal friend. Christ said "I don't even know who you are."
Being rich and increases with goods includes a great wealth of knowledge of the truth as mention by JimB. But there is also an a abundance of good works "increased with goods." I think of the Pharisee who also made reference to his good works which in his mind made him feel superior to others. He had no love in his heart for Christ and esteemed himself better than others. His religion was one of externals. It is very easy to become satisfied with our attainments but still be missing the most important thing.
Richard if you don't mind we could come back to your list you gave from last week's lesson. A person can avoid listing to rock music, and eating cheese and read their bible every day and still be lukewarm. But the danger is here that we can easily think that doing all the right things constitutes conversion. So when you say they are not converted they say yes we are look at our good works.
Lukewarm could include have a abundance of spiritual truth as well many outward reforms in our lives but the reforms are central and not Christ. A person can observe all the forms of religion and even be zealous and maintain the doctrines of the church and still be lukewarm.
I don't want to make this post to long and I am sure this still leaves us with some other thoughts. So before the day is over it might be good to spend some time on what it means to be wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked. Richard discussed this on Tuesdays lesson and some good points were made and other questions were asked.
I think also of the publican in Luke 18:13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner." Is this your experience? How did the publican come to see himself in this light?
There are two forks in the road, not just one. On the one road is dry formalism, or even Phariseeism. The other road more traveled is rock music, dancing, chicken, and cheese and a love, love, love that is full of hypocrisy. God expects us to walk in the light of His counsel. "The Lord expected the chosen nation and its leaders to obey His commands."
lukewarm gives the Lord a hard timetime deciding what to do with us. Make us permanent hot or cold.
...Someone once said that revival without reformation leads to fanaticism; reformation without revival leads to legalism...
I should not be the person to comment on our lesson study yesterday, since I was the one leading out. But I tried to bring out the unpleasant realities of the Laodicean condition, and it seemed to go well. I may have messed with their minds a bit when I suggested that a person in a Laodicean condition will not be likely to recognize it because they think all is well--so how can they be reached? No one dared venture an answer, so I said that it could only come through the promptings of the Holy Spirit and that some Laodiceans might need a "Damascus Road" type experience to wake us up. No one disagreed.
I should not be the person to comment on our lesson study yesterday, since I was the one leading out. But I tried to bring out the unpleasant realities of the Laodicean condition, and it seemed to go well. I may have messed with their minds a bit when I suggested that a person in a Laodicean condition will not be likely to recognize it because they think all is well--so how can they be reached? No one dared venture an answer, so I said that it could only come through the promptings of the Holy Spirit and that some Laodiceans might need a "Damascus Road" type experience to wake us up. No one disagreed.
The other thing I would have liked for us to discuss some more is what "hot" is. I have some ideas on this but wonder how others understand hot.
At every advance step in our Christian experience our repentance will deepen. We shall know that our sufficiency is in Christ alone and shall make the apostle's confession our own: "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing." "God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Romans 7:18; Galatians 6:14. {AA 561.2}
John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Glen thanks for sharing how do you or those reading understand what Christ meant when he said "I can of mine own self do nothing. . .? This does go along with the message for this lesson. While this statement seems simple enough it might be well for us to take some time to talk about it. The other part is also very good. "I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."
So; there may be a Church Member; adult family member; a child; stranger; whomever; whom, at whatever "height" of Christian growth we may individually consider ourselves to be, that seems to us as not comprehending certain truths that seem so obvious to us. How will we react to their questions, or what may appear to us as idiotic stumbling and mumbling, as it were. Will we get "that look" on our countenance, a cold sullen sternness, aloof distancing; a steeling of ourselves in any obvious manner from manifesting the love and mercy, the closeness Christ manifested in his fellowship with even the unbelieving? -I'm not talking about you; or you; but about my past mistaken and misplaced zeal.
I understand that Psalm 32:2 says, Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile. -However; His mercy and kindness reaches even those who ARE guilty.
Every one who loves God in sincerity and truth, will love the souls for whom Christ has died. If we wish to do good to souls, our success with these souls will be in proportion to their belief in our belief in, and appreciation of, them. Respect shown to the struggling human soul is the sure means through Christ Jesus of the restoration of the self-respect the man has lost. Our advancing ideas of what he may become is a help we cannot ourselves fully appreciate. We have need of the rich grace of God every hour, then we will have a rich, practical experience, for God is love. He that dwelleth in love, dwelleth in God. Give love to them that need it most. The most unfortunate, those who have the most disagreeable temperaments need our love, our tenderness, our compassion. Those who try our patience need most love. We pass through the world only once; any good thing we can do, we should do most earnestly, untiringly, with the same spirit as is stated of Christ in His work. He will not fail nor be discouraged. The rough, stubborn, sullen dispositions are the ones who need help the most. How can they be helped? Only by that love practiced in dealing with them which Christ revealed to fallen man. Treat them, you may, as they deserve. What if Christ had treated us thus? He, the undeserving, was treated as we deserve. Still we are treated by Christ with grace and love as we did not deserve, but as He deserved. Treat some characters, as you think they richly deserve, and you will cut off from them the last thread of hope, spoil your influence and ruin the soul. Will it pay? No, I say no, a hundred times no. Bind these souls who need all the help it is possible for you to give them close to a loving, sympathizing, pitying heart, overflowing with Christlike love, and you will save a soul from death and hide a multitude of sins. Had we not better try the love process? Fundamentals of Christian Education, Page 280
I have purposed in my heart this morning to delve deeper into this concept, and humbly solicit your prayers.