The Remnant Online

Study => Bread of Life => Topic started by: Richard Myers on May 12, 2002, 06:52:00 AM

Title: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on May 12, 2002, 06:52:00 AM
Our Sabbath School study has brought to light that there is much confusion relating to the Investigative Judgment that began in 1844. We have a topic "1844", but let us begin a discussion specifically on the judgment. There are many who will never accept this truth because it demands a changed life.

Richard

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Liane H on May 12, 2002, 07:32:00 AM
Hi Richard:

It is good to do a single study just on the judgment. First I believe we must understand that there are two parts to the judgment.

First there is the pre-Advent judgement.

Then there is the Advent judgment when Christ comes.

We must understand the first before we can understand the second.

Liane

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Mr David T Battler on May 12, 2002, 08:40:00 AM
Yes Richard

I attend a small church, where we have just one big class.

I did sense a lot of not just confusion, but a lot of people did not really se any importance at all to 1844.

I asked the class: "How important is 1844, or the cleansing of the sanctuary to you?  Does it fit in, or apply to our daily walk?"

No one answered.          :)

But it was also a very good opportunity.  After the class, many stated that it was one of the best classes we have had, and that the class was not nearly long enough.

This is a very worthwhile line of study.

------------------

Mr David T Battler

[This message has been edited by Mr David T Battler (edited 05-12-2002).]

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Clive Nevell on May 12, 2002, 12:35:00 PM
I have to run soon as the kids have to catch the school bus, this is the one doctrine that bring about refrom within our lives and the church. It shows just how particular God is and how loving He is to His people. I can agree with what David has said as it is the same at our church. Where ever I go it seems to be the same.
God bless as we study this very imortant topic further.
Clive
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Clive Nevell on May 13, 2002, 04:51:00 AM
I was asked this question yesterday about the judgement.

What was Christ doing in the heavenly sanctuary till 1844? (being in the holy place until 1844)

Also, what was cleansed in 1844?

Unless we know these answers we will be caught out everytime.

Pr. Geoff Youlden has a series of tapes on the sanctuary and they are the best explanation I hacve ever heard on this topic. I will see if I can get a transcipt of his tapes and if so will post them here.

Clive

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Claudia Marie on May 13, 2002, 09:17:00 AM
Hi,

I was reading something about how Jan Marcussen's book National Sunday law was given to a whole church full of people who were non-adventist. I cant remember what denomination they were.

But anyway the entire congregation including the Pastor had accepted the Sabbath truth and started keeping the Sabbath.

But this bothered me because apparently they became Sabbath-keepers but not really Seventh day Adventists. Doesn't the 7th day Sabbath and the Judgment hour message all tie in together as one package?

Shouldnt we be telling people the Sabbath message in relation to the Judgment message?

Im not being critical at all about Jan Marcussen's book, because I think it is just wonderful that he wrote it. It's just that I think something's missing.

I hope Im not way off topic but I really would like to get the complete picture of the Judgment, along with the Sabbath.

Claudia

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on May 13, 2002, 09:25:00 AM
We can begin our study by looking in the Book of Daniel where we see that the books in heaven are opened. Books? What books? Why are there books in heaven? What is in these books? Does God keep a record in heaven and if so what of and why?

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God: and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them; and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: M.A. Crawford on May 13, 2002, 10:48:00 AM
"For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." Ecclesiastes 12:14.

"...Fear God and give glory to him: for the hour of his judgment is come...." Revelation 14:7.

"For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" 1 Peter 4:17.

"And on the seventh-day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh-day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made." Genesis 2:2, 3.

"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy." Exodus 20:8.

"And he said unto them, the sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath." Mark 2:27.

"And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day and stood up for to read." Luke 4:16.

"Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." Hebrews 13:8.

One can readily see, from the texts of Scripture above, that the Judgment and the Sabbath ARE BIBLE DOCTRINES, and not just church doctrines. Therefore these Bible Doctrines MOST ASSUREDLY need to be taught to all who expect to be saved in order to begin a WORK OF PREPARATION to come before the Lord to be examined to determine one's fitness for Heaven (3T 575). As I stated in another forum, even if one does not use the word "investigative" in reference to the above Bible texts on the judgment, IT DOES NOT NEGATE THE FACT that judgment shall take place, and shall begin FIRST "at the house of God."

M.A.  

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on May 13, 2002, 11:03:00 AM
Amen, Brother Crawford!

Sister Claudia, I was writing my post while you were posting, so I missed your post until now. Yes, I agree that there is concern. If this church that accepted the Sabbath will continue on they will soon become Seventh-day Adventists. There is a topic where this has been discussed. I think it is in the Worship forum.

God's law reaches the feelings and motives, as well as the outward acts. It reveals the secrets of the heart. God knows every thought, every purpose, every plan, every motive. The books of heaven record the sins that would have been committed had there been opportunity. God will bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing. By His law He measures the character of every man. God has a perfect photograph of every man's character, and this photograph He compares with His law. He reveals to man the defects that mar his life, and calls upon him to repent and turn from sin. The judgment will reveal what has been written in the books of heaven.

Richard

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Clive Nevell on May 13, 2002, 11:19:00 AM
Another question that gets asked by those who oppose the IJ is that as God knows everything thing then why does He need to go through the books to find out who will be saved. Just a few weeks ago we had it presented just like that from the pulpiy by a retired minister. He would prefer to call it a pre-advent judgement.

Clive

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Clive Nevell on May 14, 2002, 01:21:00 AM
I believe the main reason is to show to the unfallen worlds, angels, and those who go to heaven that God has made the right decision. Either way God is always going to make the right one but for every doubt to be erased forever then God needs to make an investigation for all to see.

When He came into the Garden, He knew where Adam & Eve were. Before God passed judgement He made an investigation. When the woman came along with her acusers, Jesus wrote on the ground. They then disappeared. Jesus carried out an investigation. There is nothing sinister about God carrying out an investigation before the judgement has been passed. Then it is in favour of the saints.

Clive

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: M.A. Crawford on May 14, 2002, 08:50:00 AM
"...as God knows everything then why does He need to go through the books to find out who will be saved?"

You are quite correct. God does know everything. HE KNEW FROM ETERNITY, long before the earth was created, EXACTLY who would be saved and who would be lost (Rom. 8:29, 30). Why, then, do we need an Investigative Judgment? On this topic, the pen of Inspiration writes:

"In the parable of Matthew 22 the same figure of the marriage is introduced, and the investigative judgment is clearly represented as taking place before the marriage. Previous to the wedding the king comes in to see the guests, to see if all are attired in the wedding garment, the spotless robe of character washed and made white in the blood of the Lamb. Matthew 22:11; Revelation 7:14. He who is found wanting is cast out, but all who upon examination are seen to have the wedding garment on are accepted of God and accounted worthy of a share in His kingdom and a seat upon His throne. This work of examination of character, of determining who are prepared for the kingdom of God, is that of the investigative judgment, the closing work in the sanctuary above." (GC 428).

The servant of the Lord MAKES IT VERY CLEAR that the work of the investigative judgment is to determine "who are prepared for the kingdom of God." GOD IS GIVING US TIME RIGHT NOW to put on the Robe of Christ's Righteousness (Isa. 61:10) which is the wedding garment described in the parable of Matthew 22. As the Bible very clearly points out, we must be COVERED WITH THIS GARMENT--Christ's Righteousness--if we expect to go into God's Kingdom. This is why we are told in Romans 13:14 to PUT YE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, because the Bible again makes it VERY CLEAR that all who are not covered with Christ's Righteousness "shall be cast into outer darkness" and "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matt. 22:13). In other words, THEY SHALL BE LOST. Therefore, in addition to the unfallen worlds, angels, and the redeemed knowing, the Investigative Judgment is also needed SO THAT THOSE WHO ARE LOST WILL KNOW WHY THEY ARE LOST!!!

O SAY, CAN YOU SEE?!!!

M.A.

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on May 14, 2002, 09:30:00 AM
Amen.

Now, God knows our hearts before the judgment begins. He is attempting to explain the plan of salvation and the requirement for salvation to us. In this sanctuary message is the answer to our question "what must I do to be saved?" We must develop a relationship with Jesus to the point where self is dead, hid in Christ. Every single person who will enter heaven must attain to a particular stage of development. The question is very clearly "What is the standard?" We have agreed in this thread that the standard is that ALL who would enter heaven must have a character that is in harmony with the law of God. Not just the "last generation". ALL must have a life that reveals conformity to the law. All must allow Jesus total control of the life. Jesus will give none a character when He comes. The time to develop a character is today. Moral defects of character will bar all from heaven.

Is there any wonder why the sanctuary message is not preached in it's correct doctrine? Is there any wonder why it is hated so much? In it is the true gospel that requires the greatest battle ever fought to be won. Without victory over sin, there will be no heaven. Is this too hard to do? It is indeed too hard in our own strength. It is impossible to be good without help from outside of ourselves. This is why Jesus is called our Saviour. He saves us from ourselves.

If we allow Jesus into the heart, He will give us power to resist all temptations. He will provide a way of escape. No temptation will be allowed to come to us that He has not prepared us to overcome. He wants to write His laws on our hearts. He will fill us with love for Him and love for our neighbors.

In His love and grace,     Richard

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Clive Nevell on May 14, 2002, 12:31:00 PM
The sanctuary services on earth was to show to the Children of Israel the plan of salvation. The pattern coming from heaven.
In the Most Holy was God's law for everyone with the mercy seat.

Clive

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Claudia Marie on May 14, 2002, 01:11:00 PM
I just thought this might help people realize how serious it is to disregard this subject:


Early Writings of Ellen G. White, page 43, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: Experience and Views
The enemies of the present truth have been trying to open the door of the holy place, that Jesus has shut, and to close the door of the most holy place, which He opened in 1844, where the ark is, containing the two tables of stone on which are written the ten commandments by the finger of Jehovah.
Satan is now using every device in this sealing time to keep the minds of God's people from the present truth and to cause them to waver. I saw a covering that God was drawing over His people to protect them in the time of trouble; and every soul that was decided on the truth and was pure in heart was to be covered with the covering of the Almighty.

Satan knew this, and he was at work in mighty power to keep the minds of as many people as he possibly could wavering and unsettled on the truth. I saw that the mysterious knocking in New York and other places was the power of Satan, and that such things would be more and more common, clothed in a religious garb so as to lull the deceived to greater security and to draw the minds of God's people, if possible, to those things and cause them to doubt the teachings and power of the Holy Ghost.
I saw that Satan was working through agents in a number of ways. He was at work through ministers who have rejected the truth and are given over to strong delusions to believe a lie that they might be damned. While they were preaching or praying, some would fall prostrate and helpless, not by the power of the Holy Ghost, but by the power of Satan breathed upon these agents, and through them to the people. While preaching, praying, or conversing, some professed Adventists who had rejected present truth used mesmerism to gain adherents, and the people would rejoice in this influence, for they thought it was the Holy Ghost. Some even that used it were so far in the darkness and deception of the devil that they thought it was the power of God, given them to exercise. They had made God altogether such a one as themselves and had valued His power as a thing of nought.
Some of these agents of Satan were affecting the bodies of some of the saints--those whom they could not deceive and draw away from the truth by a Satanic influence. Oh, that all could get a view of it as God revealed it to me, that they might know more of the wiles of Satan and be on their guard! I saw that Satan was at work in these ways to distract, deceive, and draw away God's people, just now in this sealing time. I saw some who were not standing stiffly for present truth. Their knees were trembling, and their feet sliding, because they were not firmly planted on the truth, and the covering of Almighty God could not be drawn over them while they were thus trembling.

Satan was trying his every art to hold them where they were, until the sealing was past, until the covering was drawn over God's people, and they left without a shelter from the burning wrath of God, in the seven last plagues. God has begun to draw this covering over His people, and it will soon be drawn over all who are to have a shelter in the day of slaughter. God will work in power for His people; and Satan will be permitted to work also....

pg 55
I saw the Father rise from the throne, and in a flaming chariot go into the holy of holies within the veil, and sit down. Then Jesus rose up from the throne, and the most of those who were bowed down arose with Him. I did not see one ray of light pass from Jesus to the careless multitude after He arose, and they were left in perfect darkness. Those who arose when Jesus did, kept their eyes fixed on Him as He left the throne and led them out a little way. Then He raised His right arm, and we heard His lovely voice saying, "Wait here; I am going to My Father to receive the kingdom; keep your garments spotless, and in a little while I will return from the wedding and receive you to Myself." Then a cloudy chariot, with wheels like flaming fire, surrounded by angels, came to where Jesus was. He stepped into the chariot and was borne to the holiest, where the Father sat. There I beheld Jesus, a great High Priest, standing before the Father. On the hem of His garment was a bell and a pomegranate, a bell and a pomegranate. Those who rose up with Jesus would send up their faith to Him in the holiest, and pray, "My Father, give us Thy Spirit." Then Jesus would breathe upon them the Holy Ghost. In that breath was light, power, and much love, joy, and peace.


I turned to look at the company who were still bowed before the throne; they did not know that Jesus had left it. Satan appeared to be by the throne, trying to carry on the work of God. I saw them look up to the throne, and pray, "Father, give us Thy Spirit." Satan would then breathe upon them an unholy influence; in it there was light and much power, but no sweet love, joy, and peace. Satan's object was to keep them deceived and to draw back and deceive God's children."


Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on May 14, 2002, 01:13:00 PM
Yes, Brother Clive, the symbols are all important. The combining of mercy and truth is seen in the sanctuary service and at the cross. God did not set aside justice nor mercy, but rather allowed His Son to pay the price for the sins of all on this earth. Those who confess their sins and truly repent will have past sins forgiven. Such a God!!

Richard

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Claudia Marie on May 15, 2002, 03:31:00 AM
Hi MA Crawford   :)

Thank you for all the Bible verses. Yes I can see how the commandments, including the sabbath and keeping them would prepare you for heaven.

I was trying to understand better why it is that the Sabbath commandment is brought out so much when it comes to the Judgment. In Revelation it says:

Rev 14:7: Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

the second part of that verse is right out of the sabbath 4th commandment, so its saying that it has lots to do with the Judgment message.

I guess it just seems odd to me that at this time in history this would be brought up in Revelation. I wanted kind of an explanation to give people when we try to explain the significance of the sabbath and how it fits in with the Judgement hour message.

Does anyone know of any Spirit of Prophecy passages on this?

Claudia

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Claudia Marie on May 15, 2002, 03:39:00 AM
Richard,

I was reading back over your original post and thought of something. You know, there are lots of parables and stories in the Bible that have to do with the Judgment.

Like the ten talents story. In Christ's Object Lessons it says the story is really talking about our responsibility in getting ready for the Judement. And the Wedding Garment parable, and I think the ten virgin parable and the barren fig tree. But I dont know which ones, if any, are referring to the investigative judgment, do you know?

One thing I dont understand really is ...why is it that we during this time of history are seemingly held more responsible and to a higher standard than people in the past were?

After this I will just try and mostly read what everyone else says. Its just that Ive always had lots of questions when it comes to this subject. Not at all that I dont believe in it, but just have questions.

But I dont want to get anyone off the topic so after this I wont say much more.

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Clive Nevell on May 15, 2002, 05:16:00 AM
Understood properly the sanctuary and the judgement are the only truths that separate us from any other church.
Clive
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: M.A. Crawford on May 15, 2002, 08:52:00 AM
"I wanted kind of an explanation to give to people when we try to explain the significance of the sabbath and how it fits in with the Judgment hour message."

I do not claim to have the explanation to satisfy the concern you have in your statement above. What I can offer to you is what I believe.

In 1 Corinthians 8:5 and 6, the Bible tells us there are many gods and lords that are worshipped today by people who choose to believe what they want to believe that is at variance with the Word of God. But there is only ONE TRUE GOD. That, I believe, is the primary reason why Revelation 14:7 reads:

"...Fear God and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."

First, I very firmly believe--as do many Seventh-day Adventists--that the Three Angels' Message is THE LAST MESSAGE OF WARNING to be given to this world just prior to the Second Coming of Christ. Secondly, I believe that the First Angel's Message, as recorded in Revelation 14:7, is a CALL TO RETURN. It is a call to return to THE TRUE AND THE LIVING GOD who is identified in the second part of verse 7. It is a call to worship Him that made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and the fountains of waters. And THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD who made the heavens and the earth, and He is the True and the Living God. This is the reason why we have THE SAME GOD identified in the Fourth Commandment--The Sabbath Commandment--of the Decalogue. Please don't miss this next part.

There is a reason why in these last days the devil is working VERY HARD to do away with and put at naught God's Sabbath Commandment. I'll try to explain this as briefly and as simply as I can.

God gave us Ten Commandments written with His own Finger (Exod. 31:18). These Commandments were not written by Moses. They were written by God Himself TO INDICATE THEIR IMPORTANCE, and on stone TO INDICATE THEIR ETERNAL SIGNIFICANCE. There are two reasons why the Judgment Hour and the Sabbath Messages go hand in hand:

1. God gave to humankind Ten Commandments, and not Nine. There is no problem with most Christian denominations in keeping Commandments One, Two, Three, Five, Six, Seven, Eight, Nine, and Ten. The problem arises with the Fourth Commandment which indicates on which day THE BIBLE TELLS US we are to worship the True God. Most Christians do not worship on this day for whatever the reason. Can we be saved alive by obeying Nine of Ten Commandments of God? I think not. Therefore, God, IN HIS LOVING MERCY raised up His Remnant Church to present His last message of warning to a dying world to fear God and worship Him who made the heavens and the earth. HE HAS GIVEN TO ALL TIME to come into a knowledge of the true day of worship. This is the reason why probation still lingers. This is the reason why the Judgment Hour message and the Sabbath go hand in hand. God is patient and longsuffering, desiring that none should perish. Those who are actively working on behalf of our fellow man to help them come into the knowledge of this truth that has been obscured and distorted are known as the "repairers of the breach" (Isa. 58:12).

2. Revelation 14:7 and the Fourth Commandment of Exodus 20:11 identify the True and the Living God as the One who made Heaven, the earth, the sea, and all that are in them. This is why the servants of God cannot be sealed with the Seal of the Living God without the Fourth Commandment. Because a seal bears the name, title, and territory of the one in authority. And this Commandment IDENTIFIES WHO WE SERVE by way of His Name ("In six days the Lord"), His Title ("made" [Creator]), and the dominion of His Authority ("heaven and earth"). If we eliminate the Fourth Commandment WE WORSHIP WE KNOW NOT WHAT, and we eliminate the Seal of God whereby the servants of God are to be sealed (Rev. 7:3) because many Christians will be alive when God is seen coming in the clouds. But NO ONE who is alive can be saved keeping only Nine of God's Commandments WHEN HE WROTE TEN! This is why, from the standpoint of all who profess to follow Christ, there will be two AND ONLY TWO classes of people alive when Christ returns--DENOMINATIONS WILL NOT MATTER!!! There will be those who have received the mark of the beast (rejected the Fourth Commandment) and those who receive the Seal of The Living God (accepted the Fourth Commandment).

M.A.

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on May 15, 2002, 09:39:00 AM
Sister Claudia, your questions are thought provoking. In regards to the parables, the "ten virgins" reveal that five had made the necessary preparations and were allowed in. The five foolish did not. The judgment will reveal who has and has not made preparation. The wedding garment is the same thing. Who has put on Christ. The character is seen and if the character of Christ is not ours, we shall not be allowed into heaven. The same theme is seen running throughout the Bible and the parables.  The fruit of one's relationship is seen and written down. When Jesus came to the barren fig tree, it had no fruit, but did profess to be a good tree. It was destroyed. The lessons are all very clear that all will receive according to the deeds done in the flesh. God will judge.

You ask about the Sabbath and the judgment. God is so good!  All will be given a last chance to accept the truth before probation closes. What could God make as the last test for man before the judgment closes? Something that none could easily miss. Yes, one of the Ten Commandments. We know that they were written with the finger of God. Even the beast power holds up the Ten Commandments.

The reason for the emphasis on the 4th commandment during the real Day of Atonement is because it is the last great test. God allowed this truth to be covered up to a great degree for many years, but in the end times it is to be restored. It is not a difficult thing to prove. And,  at a time when the human race is at it's weakest point God will restore His image to the greatest degree in His people. The Sabbath blessing will be a help in doing this.

You also ask why we are to be held to a higher level of accountability. To whom much is given much is expected. God has always been absolutely fair. His justice has never been sacrificed. It will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah than for Seventh-day Adventists who have had great light and not walked in it. The world continues to suffer because we have not been the church that we ought to have been. Jesus should have come long ago, but we have failed to do that which was entrusted to us.

By His grace we shall do the work and Christ shall soon return.

Hope this helps some. I am sure others will add to it.   :)  Do you have an idea as to why the Sabbath is so important today?

In His love and grace,         Richard

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Clive Nevell on May 15, 2002, 12:47:00 PM
The Great Controversy, p. 640

"The enemies of God's law, from the ministers down to the least among them, have a new conception of truth and duty. Too late they see that the Sabbath of the fourth commandment is the seal of the living God. Too late they see the true nature of their spurious sabbath and the sandy foundation upon which they have been building. They find that they have been fighting against God. Religious teachers have led souls to perdition while professing to guide them to the gates of Paradise. Not until the day of final accounts will it be known how great is the responsibility of men in holy office and how terrible are the results of their unfaithfulness. Only in eternity can we rightly estimate the loss of a single soul. Fearful will be the doom of him to whom God shall say: Depart, thou wicked servant. {GC 640.1}

    The voice of God is heard from heaven, declaring the day and hour of Jesus' coming, and delivering the everlasting covenant to His people. Like peals of loudest thunder His words roll through the earth. The Israel of God stand listening, with their eyes fixed upward. Their countenances are lighted up with His glory, and shine as did the face of Moses when he came down from Sinai. The wicked cannot look upon them. And when the blessing is pronounced on those who have honored God by keeping His Sabbath holy, there is a mighty shout of victory. {GC 640.2}

    Soon there appears in the east a small black cloud, about half the size of a man's hand. It is the cloud which surrounds the Saviour and which seems in the distance to be shrouded in darkness. The people of God know this to be the sign of the Son of man. In solemn silence they gaze upon it as it (p. 641) draws nearer the earth, becoming lighter and more glorious, until it is a great white cloud, its base a glory like consuming fire, and above it the rainbow of the covenant. Jesus rides forth as a mighty conqueror. Not now a "Man of Sorrows," to drink the bitter cup of shame and woe, He comes, victor in heaven and earth, to judge the living and the dead. "Faithful and True," "in righteousness He doth judge and make war." And "the armies which were in heaven" (Revelation 19:11, 14) follow Him. With anthems of celestial melody the holy angels, a vast, unnumbered throng, attend Him on His way. The firmament seems filled with radiant forms--"ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands." No human pen can portray the scene; no mortal mind is adequate to conceive its splendor. "His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of His praise. And His brightness was as the light." Habakkuk 3:3,4. As the living cloud comes still nearer, every eye beholds the Prince of life. No crown of thorns now mars that sacred head; but a diadem of glory rests on His holy brow. His countenance outshines the dazzling brightness of the noonday sun. "And He hath on His vesture and on His thigh a name written, King of kings, and Lord of lords." Revelation 19:16. {GC 640.3}

A few years ago I was in a church taking the devine service and this was the only quote that I had read from SOP. Shaking my hand at the end of the service a man said to me "that was a very good service, but you want to leave behind the little red books"

One can not have the true Sabbath and separate the judgement from it.

Clive


Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Claudia Marie on May 15, 2002, 06:11:00 PM
Im really thankful for all your replies   :)

Tomorrow I will have to come back and read through them again. My husband's coming home late tonight and I have to go soon because of that.

Anyway I just wanted to say thank you and to Richard I wanted to briefly explain a reason Ive thought up as to why the Sabbath is so important today.

Ok, in Revelation it talks about two camps of people basically... those in Babylon and those in the Remanant. One is involved in Sunday worship, the other in the true Sabbath or the seal of God.

Remember when in Ezekiel 8 and 9 (I think( it talks about how the Holy Spirit led Ezekiel to see what was really going on in God's sanctuary? He saw leader "worshipping the sun towards the east". Then after that in Ezekiel 9 the angel of God cuts down the ancient men and does the seal of God on God's people who were sighing and crying for all that was going on. I see a correlation between the sun worship verses sabbath keepers there and the sunworshippers verses the sabbath keepers in Revelation.

Sundau keepers were in "Babylon" involved in paganism... anyway Sister White said God's people would expose the inroads of spiritualism and catholicism in the false churches. Remember where I just quoted above about what happens to those who dont follow Jesus into the most holy place? they become involved in things like memerism... which is part of spiritualism.

Anyway the more I thought about it, -see, Sister White said we'd be somewhat involved in pantheism, which is spiritualism, she said. ...the omega apostasy. well see the 7th day Sabbath says "worship Him who CREATED the heavens and the earth". but Ellen White said that mankind would be worhsipped as "God" in testimonies to ministers. the true Sabbath points out God as the true God, the Creator... but Babylon says man is God (such as the pope with the catholic church and such as mankind itself and nature with the pagan dragon... new age stuff, etc... spiritualism and catholicism would join hand in hand) thats why in daniel it says he would worship the god of forces (the new age god of pantheism) and seek to change times and laws.

its like, one sabbath calls man and nature God and the other points to the true God, the Creator.

well this must sound like Im rambling cause Im trying to hurry.

But anyways that just one reason I think the sabbath is so important... but I was trying to get it into my head the relation of it all with the Investigative Judgment.

ok I will come and read your posts through again tomorrow   :) ,,,EG White said there will come a time when many SDAs will realize they dont even know why they believe what they believe, and I dont want to be one of them, so thats why I want to understand this subject so much..

Thanks again so much,

Claudia

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on May 15, 2002, 07:33:00 PM
Sounds right on, Sister Claudia. As we seek to better understand the truth and are willing to walk in all that we learn, we shall grow together in our understanding. Self will die as we see the love of God for us despite our sinfulness. Jesus will empower us to keep ALL of the commandments of God. This is why the investigative judgment is so important to rightly understand. Those who have not made a full surrender to Christ cannot keep the law and therefore have to devise a new teaching in harmony with their experience unless they want to obey God.

Richard

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: M.A. Crawford on May 16, 2002, 08:04:00 AM
"Why is it that we during this time in history are seemingly held more responsible and to a higher standard than people in the past were?"

It might appear that we are held to a higher standard than people in the past were, but I do not believe this is so. What I do believe is God is a Just God (1 John 1:9). And because God is Just, therefore the same thing it took for Adam to be saved IS THE SAME THING IT TAKES FOR US TODAY TO BE SAVED: unreserved obedience to God and His Word. The Bible tells us:

"...Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31).

The Way to be saved is simple. The problem is down, through the ages, WE HUMANS ARE THE ONES WHO HAVE MADE IT DIFFICULT!!! The Bible makes it clear that all one has to do to be saved is believe on Jesus Christ. But there is a problem. TRUE BELIEF in Christ means we will faithfully COPY THE MASTERPIECE and order our lives after His Divine Likeness:

Therefore if ANY MAN be in Christ, he is a new creature: OLD THINGS ARE PASSED AWAY; behold, ALL THINGS are become new." 2 Corinthians 5:17. Emphasis mine throughout.

THERE IS THE PROBLEM! The Bible says if any man be in Christ, ALL THINGS ARE TO BECOME NEW!!! But, as with Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-5), many professed Christians are guilty of HOLDING BACK some little "pet sin(s)" in their lives that they are NOT WILLING to give up. But GOD SEES ALL AND HE KNOWS ALL! Therefore, the warning to us all is:

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: FOR WHATSOEVER A MAN SOWETH, THAT SHALL HE ALSO REAP." Galatians 6:7.

M.A.    

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: M.A. Crawford on May 17, 2002, 08:37:00 AM
Sis. Claudia, in reading your posts, I believe you have a good understanding of the relationship between the Judgment Hour and the Sabbath Message. Let us continue to pray and ask the Lord to give us the understanding we stand in need of as we continue to read the Word of God. I am THOROUGHLY CONVINCED in my own mind that when we study God's Word for understanding in order to BE A DOER of that Word, the Holy Spirit will recognize this and will fortify our minds and give us what we stand in need of. Let me very briefly make one last comment on why it seems that more is spiritually required of us in these last days than in the former.

Someone has said in essence (it may have been Ellen G. White) that the Gospel is not going to close with ANY LESS GLORY than when it began. I believe that many who are alive right now will be alive when Christ returns in the clouds. As I stated in my previous posts, this is the reason why those who are alive when Christ returns must be counted among the "repairers of the breach" (Isa 58:12) because no one will be translated into God's Kingdom who is not a keeper of all Ten of God's Commandments. And no one will be translated who is not covered with the Robe of Christ's Righteousness. These individuals will make up the 144,000 of Revelation 7:4. Notice that these individuals shall be sealed with the Seal of the Living God which is elaborated on in my  two previous posts.

M.A.

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Clive Nevell on May 19, 2002, 08:06:00 PM
In looking at the judgement we also need to look at the day of atonement that the Children of Israel clebrated evry year.
I am taking these thoughts from lesson 19 of Amazing Facts.
"Lords goat slain to cover sins of the people.
Priest ministered the blood before the mercy seat.
Judgement took place in this order: (1) righteous confirmed, (2) the unrpentant cut off, and (3) the recored of sin removed from the sanctuary.
Record of sin -placed upon the scapegoat
Scapegoat sent into the wilderness.
People cleansed from their sins.
All begin with a clean slate."

This took place in the earthly sanctuary and we have a corresponding symbolic application in the heavenly sanctuary. Point one below relationg to point one above.

"Jesus sacrificial death as man's substitute (1 Cor 15:3; 5:7)
Jesus as our High Priest restores people to God's image (Hebrews 4:14-16; Rom 8:29)
Judgement provides records to confirm lives-good and bad-and then removes the record of sin from the heavenly sanctuary. (Rev 20:12; Acts 3;19-21)
Responsibility for originating sin and for causing all people to sin is placed upon satan. (1 John 3:8; Rev 22:12)
Satan banished into the wilderness (1,000 years of Rev chapter 20)
Satan, sin, and sinners erdicated permantly (Rev 20;10; 21:8; Ps 37:10,20; Nahum 1:9)
New earth created for God's people. Everything lost by sine is restored to the Lord's saints.
(2 Peter 3;13; Acts 3:20,21)

Although Christ's atonement on the cross was a complete sacrifice the full atonement is not complete until the human race have been restored to pre-sin condition. That sin will never raise its ugly head again.

Clive

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Clive Nevell on May 22, 2002, 12:49:00 PM
Some promises regarding the judgement from the SOP.

The Present Truth, November 1, 1850,

Article Title: Dear Brethren and Sisters

"Then I was shown that the seven last plagues will be poured out, after Jesus leaves the Sanctuary. Said the angel--It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked. At the voice of God the saints will be mighty and terrible as an army with banners; but they will not then execute the judgment written. The execution of the judgment will be at the close of the 1000 years.

After the saints are changed to immortality, and are caught up together, and receive their harps, crowns, &c., and enter the Holy City, Jesus and the saints set in judgment. The books are opened, the book of life and the book of death; the book of life contains the good deeds of the saints, and the book of death contains the evil deeds of the wicked. These books were compared with the Statute book, the Bible, and according to that they were judged. The saints in unison with Jesus pass their judgment upon the wicked dead. Behold ye! said the angel, the saints sit in judgment, in unison with Jesus, and mete out to each of the wicked, according to the deeds done in the body, and it is set off against their names what they must receive, at the execution of the judgment. This, I saw, was the work of the saints with Jesus, in the Holy City before it descends to the earth, through the 1000 years. Then at the close of the 1000 years, Jesus, and the angels, and all the saints with him, leaves the Holy City, and while he is descending to the earth with them, the wicked dead are raised, and then the very men that "pierced him," being raised, will see him afar off in all his glory, the angels and saints with him, and will wail because of him. They will see the prints of the nails in his hands, and in his feet, and where they thrust the spear into his side. The prints of the nails and the spear will then be his glory. It is at the close of the 1000 years that Jesus stands upon the Mount of Olives, and the Mount parts asunder, and it becomes a mighty plain, and those who flee at that time are the wicked, that have just been raised. Then the Holy City comes down and settles on the plain.

Then Satan imbues the wicked, that have been raised, with his spirit. He flatters them that the army in the City is small, and that his army is large, and that they can overcome the saints and take the City. While Satan was rallying his army, the saints were in the City, beholding the beauty and glory of the Paradise of God. Jesus was at their head, leading them. All at once the lovely Saviour was gone from our company; but soon we heard his lovely voice, saying, "Come ye blessed of my Father inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." We gathered about Jesus, and just as he closed the gates of the City, the curse was pronounced upon the wicked. The gates were shut. Then the saints used their wings and mounted to the top of the wall of the City. Jesus was also with them; his crown looked brilliant and glorious. It was a crown within a crown, seven in number. The crowns of the saints were of the most pure gold, decked with stars. Their faces shone with glory, for they were in the express image of Jesus; and as they arose, and moved all together to the top of the City, I was enraptured with the sight.

Then the wicked saw what they had lost; and fire was breathed from God upon them, and consumed them. This was the Execution of the Judgment The wicked then received according as the saints in unison with Jesus had meted out to them during the 1000 years. The same fire from God that consumed the wicked, purified the whole earth. The broken ragged mountains melted with fervent heat, the atmosphere, also, and all the stubble was consumed. Then our inheritance opened before us, glorious and beautiful, and we inherited the whole earth made new. We all shouted with a loud voice, Glory, Alleluia.

I also saw that the shepherds should consult those in whom they have reason to have confidence, those who have been in all the messages, and are firm in all the present truth, before they advocate any new point of importance, which they may think the Bible sustains. Then the shepherds will be perfectly united, and the union of the shepherds will be felt by the church. Such a course I saw would prevent unhappy divisions, and then there would be no danger of the precious flock being divided, and the sheep scattered, without a shepherd.

September 23d, the Lord showed me that he had stretched out his hand the second time to recover the remnant of his people, and that efforts must be redoubled in this gathering time. In the scattering time Israel was smitten and torn; but now in the gathering time God will heal and bind up his people. In the scattering, efforts made to spread the truth had but little effect, accomplished but little or nothing; but in the gathering when God has set his hand to gather his people, efforts to spread the truth will have their designed effect. All should be united and zealous in the work. I saw that it was a shame for any to refer to the scattering for examples to govern us now in the gathering; for if God does no more for us now than he did then, Israel would never be gathered. It is as necessary that the truth should be published in a paper, as preached.

The Lord showed me that the 1843 chart was directed by his hand, and that no part of it should be altered; that the figures were as he wanted them. That his hand was over and hid a mistake in some of the figures, so that none could see it, until his hand was removed.

Then I saw in relation to the "Daily," that the word "sacrifice" was supplied by man's wisdom, and does not belong to the text; and that the Lord gave the correct view of it to those who gave the judgment hour cry. When union existed, before 1844, nearly all were united on the correct view of the "Daily;" but since 1844, in the confusion, other views have been embraced, and darkness and confusion has followed.

The Lord showed me that Time had not been a test since 1844, and that time will never again be a test.

Then I was pointed to some who are in the great error, that the saints are yet to go to Old Jerusalem, &c., before the Lord comes. Such a view is calculated to take the mind and interest from the present work of God, under the message of the third angel; for if we are to go to Jerusalem, then our minds will naturally be there, and our means will be withheld from other uses, to get the saints to Jerusalem. I saw that the reason why they were left to go into this great error, is because they have not confessed and forsaken their errors, that they have been in for a number of years past."

Clive

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Mr David T Battler on July 04, 2002, 06:56:00 PM
Hello

I totally forgot this thread was here, that's why I started a similar one in the worship forum...

After looking through this thread, and all the posts, I was wondering if we could back up just a little bit, as I want to explore a couple of things, to understand them better.

In Daniel 7:10, the statement is made: "The judgement was set, and the books were opened."

What does this verse mean?  Is it something obscure, relegated to the past, that theology buffs discuss, or, are their things there for this, our present age?

When and how did Daniel 7:10 ocurr, and why is it important to us today?

------------------
Fuel to burn, and roads to drive: Dan.11:32

Mr David T Battler

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on July 04, 2002, 09:45:00 PM
Brother David, on May 13 of this year you will find part of your concern answered.

Richard

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on July 08, 2002, 08:22:00 AM
Seventh-day Adventists understand this passage and there is no question as to what it means. Yes, there are those that are in rebellion against the church and Jesus and are attempting to lead the sheep away from the truth.

We have been given a message to give to the world. Rev. 14:7 "Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." We all know it and we all know what it means. It is a reference to Daniel 7:10. Yes, there is a "judgment". Daniel explains that this judgment began in 1844 (see 1844 topic). We see the "books were opened." Yes, there are books in heaven with all of our sins recorded and all of our good deeds.

The knowledge of the "judgment" was not understood by Daniel, but was sealed until the time of the end. "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." Dan. 12:4. We live in the very last days and while there are many who attempt to teach a lie, there are many whom the Lord is teaching and they in turn are giving the last message of mercy to a world soon to perish.

Richard

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: mdg on July 20, 2003, 05:25:00 AM
The IJ, tithe, unclean foods & anti-alchohol SDA doctrines are un-Biblical.

The SDA denomination is in serious need of reform before we sink in the theological storms that a battering the church right now!

Dr Desmond Ford should never have been defrocked by the papal GC hierarchy.  The CG papacy will never lead this denomination out of the wilderness to the gosepel truth!

The membership will have to lead this much needed reformation.  Luckily there are stalwarts such as Tom Norris who are willing to do just that.

Marcel de Groot for SDA reform.

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Joan on July 21, 2003, 01:23:00 AM

Hello, Marcel,  :)

Your family name came to my attention as we welcomed you way back in the month of November 2002 in the Welcome forum. De Groot means “the Great” in Hollandish Dutch, as you well know. Your ancestors must have done something very important in the ancient days of Holland.

Anything characterized by departure from accepted beliefs or standards of faith is heretical. Our heterodox brother in the faith, Desmond Ford, started preaching unorthodoxy and a split in the church ensued. This was not the will of God.

Unbiblical are customs, beliefs, doctrine which are deviant or foreign to the practices and beliefs of what is found as example in our cannonized Bible. The God-willed principles of materially supporting the ministry by tithing, and keeping the health of one’s body up to par by refraining to submit it to unclean foods/drink that promote long-termed harmful effects, as well as the fact that we are being watched and weighed in the balance during our santification time on earth, are all bible teachings in verity.

You wrote :
“The SDA denomination is in serious need of reform before we sink in the theological storms that a battering the church right now!”

Well said! Absolutely true. My heart is filled with the same worry you have of recognition coming from viewing the skandals, dissidents and worldly ways of our congregations.  May God be merciful to us in our pleading to him for revival of the outpouring of His Holy Spirit!

The General Conference is there for administration purposes. They are not our priests. They are not our source of personal spiritual leadership. The clergy over the USA land, reflecting a fair percentual ratio in our denomination, are doing for the most part probably the best they can. That good faithful percentage is not being acknowleged, recognized or praised. It is  the SDA clergy pushing NewCovenant theology that are leading the flocks to to muddy waters. We most certainly do have problems in the church with that matter.

To be honest with you, I have never looked to what GC does for my spiritual leadings. My personal daily connection to God through Jesus suffices me in my growth in knowledge. I am however totally grateful for the scripts of E.White that have enhanced my deeper understanding and appreciations of what I had, and am reading in my Bible. I depend on no guru, charismatic leader, man or woman, to be my standard of faith. But I do need the fellowship of like-minded Adventists who are born-again of water and Spirit for my personal encouragement and correction.

I noticed you being active over at JR’s forum place where T.Norris has posted. I am myself for reform, revival, outpour of the gifts of the Spirit at the Latter Rain.

You have noticed that here at TRO is also enough posting giving witness to the struggle for correcting false teachings. The Remnant Online Forum purpose is to resist the forces of liberalism of faith that is causing a laissez-faire gospel message in our Seventh-day Adventist church organisation.

Our Lord Jesus has given us the gospel of freedom from the bondage of sin. Be it the legal consequence resulting from it, or the habit of doing it. Through freedom in Christ we are set free indeed. Not to use our new found freedom for the modern form of freedom that is anarchy against the laws of God.

Joan

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on July 21, 2003, 05:03:00 PM
Brother Marcel, as a member of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, you are fighting an uphill battle which will result in defeat. The truth can stand on it's own. Let us restrict ourselves to the topic at hand and you explain why God will not judge those who profess to be His disciples. Do you believe that once a Christian is baptized he may sin and still retain eternal life? Do you believe there is no need to reveal to others the condition of the hearts of those who profess Christ as Lord?
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Mike Lowe on July 29, 2003, 09:49:00 AM
Hello. I am just now joining this study, so please forgive me if I introduce old and new insights.

The Bible clearly teaches that "we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ." 2 Cor 5:10 (see also Rom 14:10). "Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world..." Acts 17:31. The question is - When?

Since it is during this judgment "that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad" (2 Cor 5:10 and Rev 22:12) it wouldn't make sense to conduct such an investigative judgment before we live our life.

It is also clear that the purpose of such an investigative judgment is not to question or doubt our free gift of salvation in Jesus, but rather to confirm it. It is during this examination that our secret thoughts and motives are showcased for the benefit of the onlooking universe. Not until then is it known just how thoroughly we have been redeemed and set free.

All the universe will marvel at so great a salvation and will praise God for His wonderful love as revealed in the lives of sinners set free by His power and grace. Thank you Jesus.

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on August 02, 2003, 09:26:00 AM
Amen, Pastor Mike! It is the greatest miracle that our God can do. To change a sinner into His image. I am sure the angels never cease to be amazed at the power of such grace.

There indeed are two sides to this great event when the books in Heaven are opened. The sad side that reveals the professors who failed to accept Christ fully and the joyful side that reveals the love of God in the true believer. There are a number of reasons why this takes place and a review of this topic may be in order that we fully examine this Bible doctrine.  Happy Sabbath, all!

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Sister Marie on August 04, 2003, 10:19:00 AM
Last night around 3.45a.m. I printed this thread and it is read now. It was so good (99%) :). Keep it going. Sister Claudia I really enjoyed your posts in here. They also show a lot of studied understanding. All of you have put in a goodly amount of our belief here of the Sabbath and the I.J that goes hand in hand with it.  Don't let the subject die, keep it going and I am going to keep on reading and enjoying.  :)

------------------
With Christian Love,
Sister Marie

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Mike Lowe on August 04, 2003, 01:14:00 PM
The investigative judgment could prove disasterous for God if he fails to provide the necessary evidence to disprove Satan's accusations against the law and the Lord. In order for the great controversy to end favorably God must demonstrate that the law is indeed holy, just and good, and that the government of heaven is merciful and just. Otherwise the security of the universe would be threatened beyond repair.

If there were no future final investigative judgment just prior to Jesus' return in the clouds of glory there would be no equitable way for the great controversy to close with a clear winner and loser. To argue otherwise begs the purpose of these past 6,000 years of sin and woe. There is no legitimate way to explain why Jesus hasn't returned yet unless we confess that not all the issues involved in the great controversy have been settled yet.

What are the issues? What's preventing Jesus from returning today? According to Matthew 24:14 the gospel obviously has not reached everyone everywhere or else Jesus would have returned by now. By association therefore the true gospel must be accepted or rejected by every living soul in order for the great controversy to reach a climax.

What is the truth about the gospel? The Bible clearly teaches that the gospel promises freedom from sin and sinning through a saving relationship with Jesus Christ as our personal Saviour. Once we receive the sinless mind of the new man, and so long as we abide in Christ and walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man we do not and cannot commit a known sin. Once this truth is either accepted or rejected by every living person and revealed during the investigative judgment then - and only then - can the great controversy end favorably.

1 John
3:9   Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

2 Peter
1:3   According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:  
 1:4   Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust....  
 1:10   Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:  

1 Peter
4:1   Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;  
 4:2   That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.  

Hebrews
 13:20   Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,  
 13:21   Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.  

Colossians
4:12   Epaphras, who is [one] of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.  

Philippians
2:12   Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.  
 2:13   For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

Ephesians
 4:21   If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:  
 4:22   That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;  
 4:23   And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;  
 4:24   And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.  

Galatians
 5:16   [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.  

Galatians
 2:20   I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.  

1 Corinthians
 5:17   Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.  

Romans
 6:6   Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.  
 6:7   For he that is dead is freed from sin.  
 6:11   Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.  
 6:18   Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.  
 6:22   But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.  

John
 14:12   Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.  

John
 3:5   Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.  
 3:6   That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.  

Matthew
 5:48   Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.  

Matthew
 1:21   And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.  

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on August 04, 2003, 08:26:00 PM
Brother Marcel said "Dr Desmond Ford should never have been defrocked..."  He also said that the investigative judgment is not Biblical. I do believe that his comments should give reason for those who are not familiar with the issues surrounding Desmond Ford to understand there was a good reason that he lost his ministerial credentials.

Brother Marcel is welcome to present why he thinks the investigative judgment is not Biblical. The truth can stand on it's own. When the books in heaven were opened, the hour of God's judgment began. It is impossible to be a Seventh-day Adventist for very long and reject the third angel's message which begins with "Fear God and give glory to Him for the hour of His judgment is begun."

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on August 04, 2003, 08:33:00 PM
When we began this topic it was with great joy. We knew that the doctrine was under attack. There is good reason why. The devil hates it just as much as does our Brother Marcel. It reveals the narrow road to heaven.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: mdg on August 05, 2003, 06:48:00 AM
No, I don't hate the IJ or indeed any of the other SDA doctrines I happen to disagree with.  Because I disagree with someone doesn't mean that I hate him or his viewpoint.

Surely Dr Desmond Ford and Dr Raymond Cotterrel as well as a number of others have written enough about the IJ?  I don't see that I can add anything to what these great Bible scholars have written on the subject

I do believe however that the particular SDA theology re the IJ was a face-saving exercise (perhaps unwittingly)after our early pioneers experienced the great disappointment in 1844.

I am not arguing that there will be a judgement.  I just believe that the IJ doctrine is based on error.  So my view is not opposed to a judgement per se but to the details of the IJ doctrine as held by the SDA church.  I would humbly refer you to Dr Ford's & Dr Cotterrel's papers on the subject.

In truth, I should probably have myself removed from the church books. I do feel that there is enough reason for me to enjoy fellowship with my friends in the local SDA congregation where my membership is held. I would not want to give that up but I find myself unable to support doctrines I cannot agree with based on my Bible study (with much help from afore-mentioned Bible scholars).  

I certainly do not attempt to cause trouble at my congregation but I am also quite open about my viewpoint re doctrines.

It is very probable that the church will never abandon any of its doctrines.  I do believe however that the reason is not because most members support all these doctrines.  Most members I know don't even really understand the doctrines that well or even know much about our early church history.  There is also generally a culture in the South African SDA community where folks do not want to "rock the boat". There is also an ingrained habit of accepting the leadership as always being right.

So, I don't believe I am the devil's servant because I disagree with certain SDA doctrines. I believe that those of us who are for Adventist reform will be the true remnant at the end of time. Just because the mainstream SDA church holds copyright title to the name and logo does not necessarily mean that it will be the true remnant church.  No, I believe that the reformers will be the wheat and the official church will be the tares if it does not reform.

Marcel de Groot for Adventist reform  

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Mike Lowe on August 05, 2003, 07:56:00 AM
Marcel, what exactly do you (not Ford or Cottrel) believe the truth is about the end time judgment mentioned in the Bible?

Ecclesiastes
 12:13   Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.  
 12:14   For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.  

2 Corinthians
 5:10   For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.  

Romans
14:10   But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.  

Acts
 17:31   Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.  

Hebrews
 9:27   And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:  

2 Peter
 2:9   The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:  

1 John
 4:17   Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.  

Revelation
 14:7   Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.  

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on August 05, 2003, 10:06:00 AM
Brother Marcel, we understand that you do not hate those with whom you disagree. My concern is the fierce battle against the doctrine of the investigative judgment. As Pastor Mike has asked, explain where you have a problem with it. We are more than willing to listen. Share with us where you see it has truth and where you believe it deviates from the Bible. Since you believe there will be a judgment, maybe we are not far apart?
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: David Battler on August 06, 2003, 01:19:00 AM
Comments such as brother Marcel's, can be found in certain anti-SDA and IJ books, and authors.  Such objections to the IJ are obvious brainchilds of one author in particular, from which all the other anti IJ or anti SDA authors copy their ideas.

What this tells me, is that no credible Bible explanation can be given for any objection to the Investigative judgment.

I have searched all the pages for this topic, and while I saw just two vague generalizations relating to what I am about to say; I was disappointed to see no real mention of what exactly the IJ is, and what it's purpose/importance is.

If we limit the IJ to justification of the sinner; then we cut off from the IJ, 50% of it's importance.

The "Investigative" part of the judgment which began in 1844 in the MHP, is best described by Romans 3:26:

"To declare, I say, AT THIS TIME,His righteousness, that He Might be Just, AND The Justifier, of [anyone] who believes in Jesus."

Not only sinners are justified, but God is too.  This is extremely important.   :)

------------------
"I know whom I have believed..."  2 Tim.1:12

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Ulicia on August 10, 2003, 12:06:00 PM
The Bible indicates that people are judged according to their works (See rev. 20:12,13)
This goes against the commonly taught belief that works have nothing to do with salvation,
therefore people throw out the truth that "God will judge His people" (Heb. 10:3)

They go to John 5:24 where it tells us those who accept Christ will not come under condemnation, and claim this means their names will not come up in judgement.
However, John 5 clearly presents a judgement that results  in the resurrection those who have done good who will come up in the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil who will come up in the resurrection of ****ation. (5:28,29)

The strong message the "judgement" carries that we need to REPENT, and confess and forsake our sins, that they may be blotted out (see Acts 3:19) is what makes the judgment message so despised by many people.
They would rather hear the words-- You are saved by faith,  works and obedience have no part in salvation, the law was nailed to the cross, just love and believe you are saved and you will automatically grow fruit.

Somehow the message that the saints of God
"keep God's commandments AND have the faith of Jesus" Rev. 14:12 is ignored.


Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Ralph Myers on August 10, 2003, 03:00:00 PM
On the day of Atonement the ancient annual Holy Sabbath day, the Jews hoped to receive a "good writ of judgment" as opposed to a "guilty" writ.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Ulicia on August 10, 2003, 08:21:00 PM
Yes, God's people are vindicated in the  judgment but--
were there any conditions
to receive the "forgiven and cleansed" verdict? or was everyone universally accepted?

Is the investigative judgment just a blanket vindication for anyone that names Christ's name, or are their conditions?

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on August 10, 2003, 09:26:00 PM
Yes, Sister Ulicia, that is the point. Will all Jews pass through the Day of Atonement and not be cut off from God's people, or will some be cut off? If they are cut off on what basis are they "cut off"?

It is such a blessing to have simple to understand truths set before us that all who want to know may know. None will be condemned by God because they innocently believed a lie or unknowingly cherished error, but because they did not avail themselves of the opportunity to know truth.

Here we have a discussion of a most important truth that Satan is working diligently to obscure. Some will take exception with the teaching and will not fully enter into the discussion. If they did and left their preconceived opinions behind, they could easily understand the truth. It is supported by the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. It is understood easily by an object lesson within the Jewish economy.

The words that are written in this topic will not disappear, by God's grace. The arguments made for and against this doctrine will remain for all to view. The truth will stand on it's own and will be vindicated just as God's faithful people shall be. And, as our Brother David has pointed out, God Himself in the process of this "great controversy" will also be vindicated. All will see Him as perfect in His judgment and perfect in His  love.

Those who are "cut off" from His kingdom will be seen to have brought it upon themselves despite the great expense our God went to in His attempt to save them. Those who today charge God with wrong-doing will one day see that it was they who were doing wrong. God will stand clear of the charge that He participated, or caused evil in any way. He will be cleared of the charge that He did not act to stop evil, or did not do enough to rescue sinners from evil. The act of sacrificing His innocent Son for guilty man will one day be clearly seen by all, not just the ransomed who allowed Christ full reign in their hearts.

These beautiful truths are embodied in the "investigative judgment" where Jesus defends those who were conceived in sin, but responded to His call of love. Satan attacks these children of the King. He points to their sins and claims them as his. But, while it is true that these are their sins, Christ reveals the truth. What truth? The thoughts, the actions, the motives of the heart of each of His disciples who gave Him their all. He opens the books in heaven where these are all recorded. He presents the evidence that each of His saved ones accepted His offer of grace and allowed Him to lead in their lives. Here are they who through the grace of Christ indeed did keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. It is recorded and none can argue as they do today. Satan is silenced and he then allowed to show that many who named the name of Jesus are indeed his. Jesus cannot and will not defend those who made only a profession of faith, but failed to love Him with the "whole" heart.

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. In this judgment it is seen by the actions, thoughts, and motives who it is that lived their faith and who it is that did not.

Today we still have opportunity to choose Christ, to call upon His name to save us from our sins. Soon probation will close for the world and time will be no longer. For some today is their last day. There is no safety in waiting for a better time. Today is the day of salvation. Today is the day to come to Christ just as we are. To fail to do so may be the greatest mistake in one's life. We never know what tomorrow will bring.

May God bless this discussion. He will bless those who see their need and come to Him just as they are. There is no need to attempt to prepare oneself. One cannot. It is the sinner that needs a physician, not the righteous. Come to Jesus and allow Him to cleanse you, today.

[This message has been edited by Richard Myers (edited 08-21-2003).]

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Mike Lowe on August 12, 2003, 09:03:00 AM
RE: the day of atonement (judgment) Moses wrote

Leviticus
 23:29   For whatsoever soul [it be] that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.  
 23:30   And whatsoever soul [it be] that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.  

[This message has been edited by Mike Lowe (edited 08-12-2003).]

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on August 12, 2003, 09:23:00 PM
This is an interesting aspect of God's character that many refuse to see. It seems that some cannot reconcile a God who is not always manifesting outward obvious love with their desires of God. I have heard some say "If God is like that, I will not serve Him." It is indeed a presumptuous and selfish heart that cannot accept the God of the Bible. For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son for us while we were yet sinners. If this is not enough to get one to stop and search the Scriptures until they can rightly understand God's character, then it would seem that little else could be said that could motivate such a study.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: mdg on August 15, 2003, 07:49:00 AM
Pardon for taking so long to post re my viewpoint on the IJ.

I never really bothered much about the IJ until quite recently.  

****Post edited. Links and all material off topic have been removed ****


Brother Marcel, we are happy to have you present your questions and even some of your thoughts on the doctrine of the "investigative judgment". The truth can stand on it's own and your remarks will only prove the doctrine Biblical as we are given opportunity to address your concerns.

What we will not allow is the posting of links to other sites that are not Biblically sound. We also ask that you stay on topic. Since this post of yours said nothing regarding the doctrine I have edited your post to conform to the topic. There are other topics in other forums if you wish to discuss other difficulties. If you have concerns about our administration, you may take those to the Member's Forum in the Administration area. It is a public forum.

We look forward to you posting your concerns regarding the investigavtive judgement in this topic. Thank you.

Richard Myers, administrator-TRO  


[This message has been edited by Richard Myers (edited 08-16-2003).]

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Ulicia on August 16, 2003, 06:13:00 PM
Revelation announces the investigative judgment in each of the "sevens" prior to the grand announcement in Revelation 14:7 where the 1st angel announces--
"The hour of his judgement IS come...."

We, as Adventists have held that the prophecies of Revelation are not successive, they are repetitive; tht is, they double back, covering the same time periods.

Thus the seven churches, seven seals, seven trumpets cover the same time periods.

In the SEVEN CHURCHES:
the judgement is announced in the Philadephia period.  A door is shut and another is opened.

In the SEVEN SEALS:
the judgment is called for in the fifth seal,  
"How long oh Lord till you judge..."
THEN white robes are given them...
BUT they must sleep the sleep of death a little longer....
and the sixth seal shows the two groups  resulting-- one group calling for rocks to fall on them, the other group standing before God's throne in white robes.

In the SEVEN TRUMPETS:
the judgment is called for by the 24 elders at the seventh trumpet and the temple in heaven is opened and the ark of the covenant is seen.
 

quote:
GC.433.001
The temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament." Revelation 11:19. The ark of God's testament is in the holy of holies, the second apartment of the sanctuary. In the ministration of the earthly tabernacle, which served "unto the example and shadow of heavenly things," this apartment was opened only upon the great Day of Atonement for the cleansing of the sanctuary. Therefore the announcement that the temple of God was opened in heaven and the ark of His testament was seen points to the opening of the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary in 1844 as Christ entered there to perform the closing work of the atonement.

[This message has been edited by Ulicia (edited 08-16-2003).]

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Narroc on August 21, 2003, 04:00:00 AM
 >>>>>The IJ, tithe, unclean foods & anti-alchohol SDA doctrines are un-Biblical.<<<<<

While I believe Marcell is correct in that the IJ doctrine is a garbage, I do believe that the the unclean foods & anti-alchohol is very correct, We are what we eat and as christians we need to be in full control of our facitities at ALL TIMES and how can we be if we are under the infulence of alchohol or drugs. Unclean foods are very unhealthy, Pig meat is very rich and even worse is chicken which has been raised in these chicken houses and fed on hormones and ground up other animals.
We wonder why people are getting things like Mad cow disease. It's a wonder there isn't more of it.

[This message has been edited by Narroc (edited 08-21-2003).]

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on August 21, 2003, 08:56:00 AM
Brother Narroc, could you share with us what it is that you believe to incorrect with the teaching of a judgment as we have outlined? Brother Marcel has not done so, but we would appreciate your thoughts.

It seems that New Zealand and South Africa have some things in common.

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Ralph Myers on August 21, 2003, 04:43:00 PM
The health message is important if we wish to live to see the Second Coming.

Those whose health have been compromised may not have the stamina it will take to survive the events of the last days.

God will place many of His dear souls in the grave for the short time until He comes.

I do not think that anyone who inherits eternal life without seeing death, will accidently get there, they must desire it. No one "accidentally" gets to heaven through the time of the end.

It is a gift to be prayed for.

As for the Investigative Judgment... I have seen it in three different Scriptures even when I was not looking for it, but while reading other studies.

It is not possible that God can make any determination as to whether or not you will be saved, unless a "judgment" at the last day is rendered to you. A judgment must first be made.

The types and shadows of the ceremonial services have not passed away. They are no longer in practice under the first sanctuary, but they still serve to explain the real sanctuary that is yet in heaven, and still in progress.

These types and shadows do not all culminate in the death of Christ. Some are shadows of things yet to come. The scapegoat is still in the future millenium.

Ralph Myers

[This message has been edited by Ralph Myers (edited 08-21-2003).]

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: susanskeptic on October 23, 2003, 09:06:00 PM
There are many different theories on the I.J.:

#1. Does anyone have an opinion on Martin Eldon's theory??:
< http://www.babylonforsaken.com/investigative.html >

#2. Does anyone have an opinion on Dirk Anderson's theory??:
< http://www.ellenwhite.org/egw36.htm >

#3. Does anyone have an opinion on Ron Beaulieu's theories??:
< http://members.tripod.com/omega77/doaandezekiel9.htm >
< http://members.tripod.com/omega77/martinvegw1.htm >
< http://members.tripod.com/omega77/ijproven.htm >

#4. Does anyone have an opinion on Sydney Cleveland's theories??:
< http://www.christiancommunitychurch.us/dovenet/sda2300.htm >

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on October 24, 2003, 10:06:00 PM
Sister Susan, if these individuals wish to come here and question what has been posted, they are welcome, if they are Seventh-day Adventists. If you have any concerns about what has been posted, we offer you also the opportunity to question what has been said. I think the doctrinal position is clearly revealed and it seems to me to be very Biblical. The fact that there are those that hold different positions is seen as it is with so many other doctrinal teachings.

As I have said before, the investigative judgment has to be twisted so that a false gospel can live. The gospel and the investigative judgment go hand in hand. Most professing Christians will not go to heaven unless they have a dramatic change in their characters. Few teach a correct gospel that reveals the power of grace in the life.

What problems do you have with the investigative judgment? Maybe we can help.  :)

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Ulicia on November 13, 2003, 09:53:00 PM
There is no problems with the Judgment message.

Where I see problems is when that message is laid aside.  Repeatedly those who fail to see the judgment in Daniel and Revelation also fail to see the whole endtime battle for what it is.

If the investigative judgment is denied then the horn in Daniel is also denied as being the papacy.
Judgement then is no longer to determine WHO THE REAL CHRISTIANS are, but is simply a judgment on some ancient historical power.

The investigative judgment is a judgment on the little horn, to see the little horn as THE PRIMACY of Christianity for hundreds of years, clearly shows this judgment is dealing with Christianity,-- determining who the real Christians are,  and it follows in it's natural progression.  
But those who deny that  then say the  horn is called Epiphense and the prophecies of Daniel are mainly placed pre-cross. "As types" of a future antichrist who is NOT CHRISTIAN.

This leads to all types of deviations from the real battle of the last days, Christ's kingdom, and many other truths.
 
This of course also destroys the Sabbath message AS A TEST,  for  if the  church with PRIMACY in the  Christian era, did not change the law of God, why would there be a battle between papal christianity and those who keep the commandments of God?

Too many times I've seen those who forsake the Judgment message,  also forsake the whole endtime beliefs.

This doctrine, which  is very BIBLICAL, is truly  a PILLAR--
If the opposition can destroy that pillar, the Seventh-day Adventist church, as an identity with a unique message for the last days,  crumbles.

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on November 14, 2003, 05:08:00 AM
"those who fail to see the judgment in Daniel
and Revelation also fail to see the whole endtime battle for what it is."

Amen, Sister Ulicia. The "judgment" message is at the foundation of our faith. Mis-interpret it and all that follows will be off. God extended to Adam another chance to form a character for eternity. That same offer is extended to each of us. If we fail to see the test, then how can we enter into the work for our souls? It is sad that there are so many who will not study this subject for themselves, but rely upon the teachings of others. It will cost many of them their souls.

The end time events are laid out very clearly in the Bible. Satan does all that he can do to confuse the simplicity of the Bible. The battle between good and evil is just about over. There is little time left to decide who will be our God. This subject of the investigative judgment correcty understood, will help those who are sincere in their faith. It will point them in the right direction, the power of God's grace.

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Sister Marie on November 14, 2003, 01:49:00 PM
Again Amen, Sister Ulicia.

Sometimes I feel there are some amoung us that, like the world of Christians, choose to pick what they want to believe, not realizing that like the old song goes, "the neck bone's connected to the shoulder bone....etc..  so also is prophecy and doctrine, it is all connected and if we take out a part, slowly something else crumbles too, and then more, tell all we had been so strong in has crumbled beneith our feet. We must stick to all parts and hold up "the whole Truth!"

------------------
With Christian Love,
Sister Marie

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Clive Nevell on December 06, 2003, 08:51:00 AM
To me it is logical for God to have an investigation before He makes a judgement. He knew where Adam and Eve were when He came into the garden. Likewise every other case you look at God knows before he passes judgement.

The issue as I see it is that God must show the universe that the decisions that has been made is right. We have unfallen worlds that do not fully understand what we go through. God's name must be vindicated. It will be.

That is why there are "books" in heaven for all to see. Nothing is covered up.


Clive

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on December 06, 2003, 12:23:00 PM
Yes, Brother Clive, and when we see there is indeed a pre-advent judgment, we then must understand who it is that is being judged. Few are willing to teach that it is the sinner's record that is being examined. The "new theology" rampant in "Christian" churches allows for the sinner to enter into eternal life with a character that does not keep the commandments of God. Rightly understood the sanctuary services including those on the Day of Atonement point to the need to repent of each sin and to forsake them.

When the books in heaven are opened, they are the records of the good deeds and the bad deeds of those who profess God. Recorded are the motives and the thoughts as well as the outward actions. All who have named Christ will be seen to be either truly converted because they have a changed character or unconverted because their motives, thoughts, and deeds were not in harmony with the law of God.

It is very simple and in harmony with the real gospel. Most in the churches will not accept such a "narrow" gospel. We were warned that this day would come. "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." 2 Tim 3:3,4.

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Kevin Hellerud on January 15, 2004, 10:03:00 PM
Have you ever noticed that those who want to say that there is no investigative judgment want to explain it away because they feel that if it is true that it must be something scary and against them...

What type of picture of God must they have? First of all, even before asking if it is true or not, we need to realize that if there is any possiblity of it being true, it is a gift from the same one who gave us the gift of the story of the birth of Jesus, the sermon on the mount, the raising of Lazarus, the resurection of Jesus, and the hope of heaven. Why do the critics feel that this gift should be horrable since the others have been so wonderful?

Who was it that found the birth of Jesus to be terrible? Herod. Who found the raising of Lazarus to be bad news? The leaders who wanted to put Jesus to death. Who found the resurection of Jesus to be horrible? Pilate, Herod, Caiaphas. Thus I worry about those who feel that the Investigative Judgment is not good news.

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Kevin Hellerud on January 15, 2004, 11:54:00 PM
Once we have come to the realization that the gifts from God are good news, we can start to evaluate whether the investigative judgment is good news.

About 6 or 7 years ago, I wrote an essay on the Adventist Today website, which stoped actvity for well over a month, then a few people threw verbal comments such as "It's too long, how do you expect us to read this all" "We all know that the investigative judgment is not Biblical" etc. which pushed it off the opening page, but no one dealt with the issues raised.

I have revised and posted again over the years, but still get no takers among the critics, except once one person picked on one line in the post, even though I know that there are points that can be much stronger (such as better footnotes).

Some of the highlights include:
1. Everytime before God does something in the Bible there is an investigative judgment. God calling for Adam and Eve and asking what happened. God coming to invistigate the cities of Sodom and Gomorah, etc.

2. Archaeology teaches us that in ancient near-eastern trials, there is always an investigative judgment phase. People tended to see themselves coming into the investigative judgment phase as positive, where they would be justified. Same with people and their gods. In the Cannanite religion good, wise king Danel prayed to Baal to have his name come up in judgment to be investigated and see if he could get a son. The people in Sodom and Gamorah believed in the investigative judgment and saw it as positive. The story of Sodom and Gamorah was that the supernatural beings who were to represent Yahweh in ruling those cities found that the people could no longer be rulled, and thus wanted an investigative judgment to free them from the responcibility.

3. Archaeology also teaches us that the ancient world thought in terms of cycles that were interchangeable. We with our Greek, western thought think in a time line. The ancients thought in a circle. Israel thought in a spirial, where things circle around but from a begining and going towards an end, but though out time it would cycle around again. An end was also a begining. One cycle ended as another began. Places on the cycle were seen as somewhat interchangeable. This is why prophecys all have a local application and also future applications (notice I did not say "application"). They believed that you can be here and there, now and then. One application in Egypt, as pointed out in "Before Philosophy" by Henri Frankfort and others, 1946 University of Chicago Press, was that the idea of a day in ancient Egypt was applied to the cycle of the sun and to the cycle of the flooding of the Nile, which happened once a year. Day-Year is a frequent interchange in the ancient world and the Bible. For example, Moses spent 40 years in the wilderness and Jesus spent 40 days in the wilderness, and Moses' 40 years becomes a prophecy of Jesus' 40 days. Thus the Day-year is a part of the culture that gave us the Bible.

4. Although we can not give exact dates, from the third year of Belshazzar to Belshazzar's feast covered a period of approxamately 2300 days. Daniel 9 re-applys the 2300 days to the future decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, which has the strongest evidence for having begun with the Day of Atonement 457 BC, but the original setting was that things could have ended in the last 2300 literal days of the exile with the Messiah coming to bring them home, if only they would share the gospel with their neighbors.

5. With the cyclic time, compaired to the cycles in Leviticus we find cycles of (and I don't remember if I got all of them here, I think there were six or 7 of which I'm only noticing and remembering 5) but we have days, months, half years, full years and Sabbatical years, but with Daniel's dependence more on Deuteronomy than Leviticus, we do not count the Sabbatical years as a possibility. So Daniel 8:14 could be 2300 days, 2300 months, 2300 half years and 2300 full years (and I think one other shorter one). God did not have to sit around tweddling his thumbs until 1844, rather 1844 was the longest that Daniel 8:14 could be applied to. It could have been fulfilled at any of the shorter times had the gospel been preached.

5. "Kippor" in the Old Testament and the ancient world could be either positive or negative depending on your choice to the event. Thus it is translated as either judgment or atonment. It bore with it an idea of one event that could have two different results. A classic kippor is the birth of Jesus, which brought one message to the Wise Men, and quite another to Herod. It was not God doing one good thing to the Magi and doing a sepperate bad thing to Herod, but the one single event that was incredably wonderful to the Magi and unspeakably horrible to Herod. The Biblical idea of the word kippor is God doing anything special that can deepen our relationship with him. Thus not to have a kippor, would mean that God would have to become static and passive, because anything active he does is implied by the word "Kipper"

6. In ancient cycles, they believed that what happend in the heavenly sanctuary was happening on the earthly sanctuary, and what was happening in the earthly was happening in the heavenly. Thus for something special to happen on earth meant for it to be happening in heaven....

7. Around the mid-1800's we start to find a change in Christianity... First, starting in the 1830's Edward Robinson began exploring the middle east and finding geographical locations of Biblical events. From this Archaeology was able to form. Also, at this time more scientific word studies of the scriptures developed, a better understanding of phrases and shades of meaning in phrases, which had begun to decrease the amount guess work in translation. And also the industral age which lead to where today we can listen to the Bible on tape and CD, see the books of Matthew and Acts on video. These things have caused us to be living in a day of more Biblical knowlege avaible than Luther, Usher, Wesley could ever have believed possible. If they could see our day, they would long to be alive today, and chide us for not taking advantage of it. There is an investigation of the pages of scripture that was NEVER BEFORE POSSIBLE no matter how much Luther may have longed for it. In the cyclic thought, this investigation on earth needs to also be going on in heaven. But this is not negative, but positive.

It was also in the mid-1800's that Protestantism split into Modernism, with their lack of belief in a personal God, and not seeing the Bible as trustworthy and historical and on the other hand Fundamentalism, which trusts in God and believes the Bible, but tends to fear that any what they would consider as an inperfection in the Bible would invalidate the whole thing, thus they fear studying too deeply and stay on a superficial level.

Today we have the Bible availble in translations written on a third grade reading level. Bible on tape and CD, Matthew and Acts on video and DVD. We have more information to study the Bible such as never before. But sadly there has never before been as much Biblical ignorance, not only of the common people, but even ourselves, my self included. (I thank God that even dispite my lack of taking the advantage that is avaible, at least I am doing some.)

But what is really sad is when you look at those who oppose the Investigative Judgment, you see that they tend to want to pretend that we have learned nothing more about the scriptures than we did in Luther's time. They study Luther, and even see the Wesleys as legalistic heretics. (They do not attack Wesley by name, but every once in a while you may here them try to sneek an attack on Arminianinism, which is what the Wesley's believed and developed).

The critics know Luther, but little of Willim Foxwell Albright. You do not often see the Anchor Bible on the shelves of the typical "Christian" book store. Desmond Ford understands Luther and Reformation Theology, but not the Baal epic and the culture of the Old Testament. Ford reads Daniel through the eyes of Luther and does not see the investigative judgment. I read Daniel through the eyes of King Danel and others from ancient culture, and the Investigative Judgment shines through.

Even worst are the louder opponents such as Ratslaf and Martin. When you look at their message, you find them coming up with excuses to do away with most of the Bible, so that all you are left with is an abridged version of Paul and (depending on how you see it's author) an abridged version of Hebrews, and they make their abridged version the WHOLE Bible, and then this abridged version can only be interpeted via Reformation Theology. How limiting and how sad. I don't know about you, but I can't picture Luther wanting to be compliant to just rest where he fell. If Ratslaf's understanding of how to use the Bible is heaven, I'd just as soon spend eternity in a literal fire hell, both that limited mental ignorance bliss and the phisical pain seem equally uninviting.

Can you picture a long distance relationship, where there was a letter from the beloved that has sections sniped out, more letters come, but the person only wants to read that one letter that had been sniped, and throws away the other letters with barely a glance, and the person say that if they were to read the other letters, or look at their beloved's picture, it might change the relationship. That is how the critics of the Investigative Atonement appear to me.

The investigative judgment does not lessen the cross, it opens the door for deeper understanding of the cross and he who was on the cross. It is the difference between living before the investigative judgment and living in the investigative judgement is the difference between corrisponding between your beloved through post office mail, and getting the chance to talk to your beloved on a computer with a webcam. It is still my beloved, it is still held together by the love of this loved one, it still makes a longing for the day when we see our beloved face to face in person, but there is a new level of connection in our long distance romance.

We are living in an age where we can dig deeper into the scriptures than ever before. We can investigate it's pages like never before. As we learn more about the scriptures, we will learn more about the God of the scriptures, and as we learn more about the God of the scriptures, by beholding we become changed. I find the investigative judgment one of the most exciting doctrines ever!

[This message has been edited by Kevin Hellerud (edited 01-16-2004).]

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on January 16, 2004, 07:48:00 AM
Brother Kevin, I think you have spoken a very important truth that we all can benefit from better understanding. In regards to the judgment you say "It bore with it an idea of one event that could have two different results. A classic kippor is the birth of Jesus, which brought one message to the Wise Men, and quite another to Herod. It was not God doing one good thing to the Magi and doing a sepperate bad thing to Herod, but the one single event that was incredably wonderful to the Magi and unspeakably horrible to Herod."

I agree that this is the case with the Day of Atonement when each person who professes to serve God has his name come up in the investigative judgment. You have described the situation very well. Those who have not yielded to the Lord Jesus Christ and who continue to hurt others and Christ will find the judgment unspeakably horrible. The Spirit convinces of "judgment". The ones that lives through it will call for rocks to fall upon them.

There is another group that rejoices over the judgment. Many of them also will call for the rocks to fall upon them. They are the ones to whom Jesus will say "Depart from me ye workers of iniquity. They believed in grace, but not justice. There is a third group that understands that justice and mercy met at the cross. They know that the Day of Atonement is a day to search the soul. They do not rejoice in that day, but rather search their hearts for sin that it may be put away. They know of their sins and they do not trust themselves. The closer they come to Christ the more they see the perfect standard. They know that they in and of themselves cannot match the standard. They do not set aside the law nor do they boast of their holiness. Instead they plead for the power of grace to obey the truth. By faith they enter into the Most Holy Place with their Saviour, not because they are worthy, but because Christ is. They know that in the judgment any unconfessed sin and unforsaken sin will cause them to lose heaven, but they mostly fear that if they have not confessed all their sins they will bring reproach upon the One they love so much.

If we would only study the truths of God's word, and do his will, we should know of the doctrine; we should not be ignorant of these important truths. We believe without a doubt that Christ is soon to come; and believing this we feel a necessity upon us to plead with men and women to prepare for the coming of the Son of Man. We do not want that any should be of that number who shall call for rocks and mountains to fall on them to hide them from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. We want all to be of that number who shall enter in through the gates into the city, who shall have an abundant entrance, and shall have the right to the tree of life. We want all to be of that company that shall bow before the throne of God crying, "Worthy, worthy, worthy, is the Lamb that was slain for us." We want all to be praising God with immortal tongues, and be saved with an everlasting salvation; and, therefore, Jesus warns all to flee from the wrath to come. We plead with all to perfect holiness in the fear of the Lord. It is perfection that is required; and nothing short of perfection will enable anyone to see the King in his beauty.

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Jean Miller on February 27, 2004, 06:09:00 PM
I believe the Sanctuary message and the Investigative Judgment to be one of the most important messages for the last generation.  I have written an article which is a study on the Sanctuary and includes what happens on the Day of Atonement, or the Investigative Judgment Day. I know it is a bit lengthy, but it contains many beautiful quotes. Here it is for those of you who want to thoroughly study it out.

THE GOSPEL IN THE SANCTUARY

    “Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary.”  (Psalm 77:13)  The sanctuary in the Bible is simply an illustration of the gospel.  By studying the sanctuary we discover what God does to save us and also what our part is.  “Send thee help from the sanctuary.” (Psalm 20:2) The help that God sends from the sanctuary is the gospel. The sanctuary gives an incredible message of hope.

    The sanctuary is a representation of God’s people. “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?”  (1 Corinthians 3:16)  “That temple, erected for the abode of the divine Presence, was designed to be an object lesson for Israel and for the world. From eternal ages it was God's purpose that every created being, from the bright and holy seraph to man, should be a temple for the indwelling of the Creator. Because of sin, humanity ceased to be a temple for God. Darkened and defiled by evil, the heart of man no longer revealed the glory of the Divine One. But by the incarnation of the Son of God, the purpose of Heaven is fulfilled. God dwells in humanity, and through saving grace the heart of man becomes again His temple. God designed that the temple at Jerusalem should be a continual witness to the high destiny open to every soul.”   (Desire of Ages, p. 161)  “”While the westering sun was tinting and gilding the heavens, its resplendent glory lighted up the pure white marble of the temple walls, and sparkled on its gold-capped pillars.  From the crest of the hill where Jesus and His followers stood, it had the appearance of a massive structure of snow, set with golden pinnacles.  At the entrance to the temple was a vine of gold and silver, with green leaves and massive clusters of grapes executed by the most skillful artists.  This design represented Israel as a prosperous vine.  The gold, silver, and living green were combined with rare taste and exquisite workmanship; as it twined gracefully about the white and glistening pillars, clinging with shining tendrils to their golden ornaments, it caught the splendor of the setting sun, shining as if with a glory borrowed from heaven.”  (Desire of Ages, p. 575) The gold in the temple represented faith and love.  “Those who enter the mansions which Christ has gone to prepare will be those who love God and keep his commandments. They must have the gold tried in the fire, the gold of faith and love.” (Advent Review & Sabbath Herald, July 28, 1891) The white marble represented the white robe of righteousness that God is going to clothe each of His people with.  (Matthew 22:12) “If you are to sit at Christ's table, and feast on the provisions he has furnished at the marriage supper of the Lamb, you must have a special garment, called the wedding garment, which is the white robe of Christ's righteousness.” (Youth’s Instructor, August 11, 1886)  Silver represents God’s children who have been purified. (Malachi 3:3, Zechariah 13:9)  Green represents God’s care for us.  “The living green that carpets the brown earth tells us of God's care for the humblest of His creatures.”  (My Life Today, p. 175)  Green is formed by combining yellow (the color of gold which represents faith and love) and blue (the color that represents God’s law according to Numbers 15:38,39).  Green, or emerald, is the color around God’s throne, representing the fact that God’s kingdom is based upon a combination of mercy and justice.  “Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.” (Psalm 85:10)  The entire sanctuary represents us and how God is going to transform us, scarred with the ugliness of sin, into a beautiful pure white temple for Him.

    When one entered the temple, the first object one saw in the outer courtyard was the altar where the lambs were slain.  This altar represents the cross where Jesus, the Lamb of God, died for our sins.  When we confess our sins, repent, and accept Jesus’ death for our sins we are justified.  “Repentance includes sorrow for sin and a turning away from it. We shall not renounce sin unless we see its sinfulness; until we turn away from it in heart, there will be no real change in the life.” (Steps to Christ, p. 23) According to Webster’s Dictionary the word justify means “to pronounce free from guilt or blame.”  Jesus’ blood covers our sins and God gives us righteousness on the credit card principle.  We are not yet righteous, but He counts us as righteous because Jesus’ blood is covering us.

    The next article in the courtyard was the laver where the priests washed before entering the temple.  This laver represents baptism.  After we accept Jesus into our lives we need to be baptized.

    After washing at the laver the priests entered the Holy Place of the sanctuary.  Here was contained the table of shewbread containing the twelve loaves of bread, the altar of incense, and the candlestick made of gold.  The bread represented Jesus, the Bread of Life.  It also represents the Word of God, because Jesus is the Word.  (John 6:48, John 1:1)  The altar of incense represented the prayers of God’s people ascending to heaven.  (Psalm 141:2)  The candlestick represented Jesus, the Light of the world. (John 8:12)  The oil in the candlestick represented the Holy Spirit. (Matthew 25:1-13)  “In the Scripture, oil is used as a symbol of the Holy Spirit.” (Signs of the Times, August 6, 1894)  The Holy Place represents sanctification.  According to Webster’s Dictionary, to sanctify means “to free from sin.”  “The work of sanctification is the work of a lifetime.”  (Selected Messages, Vol. 1, p. 317) We are sanctified through studying the Word of God represented by the bread, through prayer, represented by the incense, through Jesus, represented by the light, and through the Holy Spirit, represented by the oil.  

    The next part of the sanctuary was the Most Holy Place where the priest entered only once a year on the Day of Atonement, or Judgment Day.  The Most Holy Place represents purification.  At the judgment God will cleanse, purify, or perfect His children. According to Webster’s Dictionary the word perfect means “being without fault or defect.”  “And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you.  For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the Lord.”   (Leviticus 16:29,30)  “When I was shown the present condition of man in physical, mental, and moral power, and what he might become through the merits of Christ, I was astonished that he should preserve such a low level.  Man may grow up into Christ, his living head.  It is not the work of a moment, but that of a lifetime.  By growing daily in the divine life, he will not attain to the full stature of a perfect man in Christ until his probation ceases.”   (Testimonies, Vol. 4, p. 366-367)  Our probation ceases either when we die, or, for the last generation who are translated to heaven without seeing death, in the judgment.  Thus it is at the judgment that God perfects His people.  The judgment is a wonderful message of hope.  For this reason we should look forward to the judgment with joy, because this is when God perfects us.  

    The temple in Jesus’ day was covered with pure white marble.  The sanctuary in the wilderness had a wall around the courtyard made of white linen.  The effect was that when people looked at the temple they saw pure white.  This white represents glorification, which occurs at the Second Coming.  At the judgment our minds are perfected, but at the Second Coming are bodies are perfected and we are given the gift of immortality.  (1 Corinthians 15:51-54)  At that time, in both body and mind, God’s people completely reflect the image of Jesus.  According to Webster’s Dictionary the word glorify means “to raise to heavenly glory.”  

   Now that we have had a brief overview, let us go back and look at what occurs at the judgment in greater depth.  “And the serpent saith unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die; For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”  (Genesis 3:4-5)  When Satan told Eve that when she ate the fruit of the tree she would gain knowledge of evil, he was right.  “The only knowledge they gained by their disobedience was a knowledge of sin and its results.”   (SDA Bible Commentary, Vol. 1, p. 1083) The knowledge of sin through experience is the definition of a sinful nature.  When this experiential knowledge is removed from our minds then we are purified, or perfected.  Removing sin from our minds is the work of the judgment.

    “For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.  For then would they not have ceased to be offered? Because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.”  (Hebrews 10:1-2) The subject of this text is obtaining perfection. The sacrificial system was not sufficient to make anyone perfect.  Then this text goes on to say that when God’s people are perfected (purged) they would have no more “conscience of sins.”  The word conscience, according to Strong’s Concordance, can also mean knowledge. This text is saying that when we are cleansed (perfected, purged) then we will have no more knowledge of sin because our sins have been removed from our minds.  Ellen White says the same. “So, in the time of trouble, if the people of God had unconfessed sins to appear before them while tortured with fear and anguish, they would be overwhelmed; despair would cut off their faith, and they could not have confidence to plead with God for deliverance. But while they have a deep sense of their unworthiness, they have no concealed wrongs to reveal.  Their sins have gone beforehand to judgment and have been blotted out, and they cannot bring them to remembrance.”  (Great Controversy, p. 620)  Note that they cannot remember any of their sins.

    In the Bible the words blot out, purge, and cleanse all mean the same thing and can be used interchangeably.  Here is the evidence.  “Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy loving kindness; according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.  Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.”  (Psalm 51:1-2,7)  When God cleanses us from all sin, which happens on our judgment day, then we are perfected.  What wonderful news!  This is the message of the Day of Atonement.

    One key to understanding the Bible is to make sure we understand the correct definitions of prominent words. According to Webster’s Dictionary, the word clean means “free from dirt or stains, free from foreign matter or pollutants, morally pure.”  The word cleanse means “to clean or purify.”  Purge means “to rid of impurities, to clear of imputed guilt.”  Purify means “to make pure, to free from guilt or evil.”  Perfect means “conforming absolutely to an ideal type, excellent or complete beyond improvement, without flaws, accurate in every detail.”  All of these words are very similar and can mean one and the same.  So when the Bible says that on the Day of Atonement we are cleansed of all sin, this means that sin has been completely eliminated from our lives; in other words, sin has no more part in our lives.  Blot means “a spot or stain, a blemish on a person’s reputation.”  Seal means “an emblem or symbol used as evidence of authenticity, anything that serves as assurance or confirmation, to decide irrevocably.” We are told that during the judgment our sins are blotted out, we are cleansed from all sin, and we are sealed. “When Jesus leaves the sanctuary, then they who are holy and righteous will be holy and righteous still; for all their sins will then be blotted out, and they will be sealed with the seal of the living God.” (Early Writings, p. 48)  “The work of the investigative judgment and the blotting out of sins is to be accomplished before the second advent of the Lord. Since the dead are to be judged out of the things written in the books, it is impossible that the sins of men should be blotted out until after the judgment at which their cases are to be investigated. But the apostle Peter distinctly states that the sins of believers will be blotted out ‘when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; and He shall send Jesus Christ.’ Acts 3:19, 20. When the investigative judgment closes, Christ will come, and His reward will be with Him to give to every man as his work shall be.” (Great Controversy, p. 485) When we are sealed our names are put into the Book of Life and our case is closed forever; we are eternally saved.  After that point, we will not sin again. Because if we did, then God would have to re-decide our case, would He not?  The Bible never speaks of being judged a second time; thus God’s people will not sin after they are judged.  The only way God’s people will not sin is if they have been given the perfect nature, because currently all our righteousness is as filthy rags, as seen in the following quote.

    "The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary, but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God. They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor, who is at God's right hand, presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God. All incense from earthly tabernacles must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ. He holds before the Father the censer of His own merits, in which there is no taint of earthly corruption. He gathers into this censer the prayers, the praise, and the confessions of His people, and with these He puts His own spotless righteousness. Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ's propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable. Then gracious answers are returned."  (Selected Messages, Vol.1, p. 344)

    This quote is speaking of the state of God’s true believers while praying.  These people are not willfully sinning, yet they are so corrupt that their prayers have to be purified with the blood of Jesus before they can be presented to the Father.  Our very being is corrupt and rotten to the inner core. As long as we are in the sinful nature our every act and thought has some selfishness buried in it somewhere. Here are some more quotes that give more light into the sinful nature we now have. “…when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. Then we shall know that our own righteousness is indeed as filthy rags, and that the blood of Christ alone can cleanse us from the defilement of sin, and renew our hearts in His own likeness.”  (Steps to Christ, pp. 28-29)  The cleansing process of our minds begins when we come to Jesus and confess our sins (justification), continues as we grow in Jesus (sanctification), and is completed when we are cleansed of all sin and sealed at the judgment (purification). At the Second Coming our bodies will be changed and we will be given immortality (glorification). See 1 Corinthians 15:51-54. This glorification is represented by the white marble covering Solomon’s temple.  It is also represented by the white wall surrounding the sanctuary in the wilderness.  It is possible under sanctification to come to the point where we no longer willfully sin; however, our very nature and being is still sin. “By nature we are alienated from God.”   (Steps to Christ, p. 43)  Even when we are not willfully sinning, we are in a state of sin which pervades our every act of life.  “…because of his (Adam’s) sin our natures are fallen, and we cannot make ourselves righteous.”  (Steps to Christ, p. 62)  “But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.”  (Isaiah 64:6) This is why Paul exclaimed, “O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?”  (Romans 7:24)   Paul answered his question, “I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Romans 7:25) Yes, Jesus delivers us from this body of death in the judgment, when He blots out all our sins and seals us.

    Jones & Waggoner presented the message of Righteousness by Faith, which was rejected in the 1888 Minneapolis Conference.  At least part of their message was what happens when our sins are blotted out in the judgment and we are sealed. Consider the following quote written by Waggoner.  "We need to be on our guard against the idea that the blotting out of sin is merely as the passing of a sponge over a slate, or an entry in a ledger to balance the account.  This is not the blotting out of sin.  An ignorant man who saw a thermometer for the first time thought to lessen the heat by breaking it.  But how much effect did this have upon the weather?  Just as much as the wiping out of the record of his sin has upon the sinner.  The tearing of a leaf out of a book, or even the burning of the book containing the record, does not blot out the sin.  The sin is not blotted out by blotting out the account of it, any more than throwing my Bible into the fire abolishes the Word of God.  There was a time when all the Bibles that could be found were destroyed; but the Word of God--the truth--remained just the same, because truth is God Himself; it is His life...The blotting out of sin is the erasing of it from the nature, the being, of man.  The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses from all sin. Our bodies are but the channel, the border, the sand upon the shore, of the river of life...The erasing of sin is the blotting of it from our natures, so that we shall know it no more.  'The worshipers once purged'--actually purged by the blood of Christ--have 'no more conscience of sin,' because the way of sin is gone from them.  Their iniquity may be sought for, but it will not be found.  It is forever gone from them,--it is foreign to their new natures, and even though they may be able to recall the fact that they have committed certain sins, they have forgotten the sin itself--they do not think of doing it any more.  This is the work of Christ in the true sanctuary, which the Lord pitched, and not man--the sanctuary not made with hands, but brought into existence by the thought of God."  [Emphasis added]   (Written by E.J. Waggoner, Review & Herald, Sept. 30, 1902)

    Many years ago I wondered what the cleansing of the sanctuary did for me personally.  At that time I thought that the cleansing of the sanctuary was the removal of the sins of God’s people from the heavenly sanctuary.  If Jesus is removing the sins of His people from the records of heaven, how does that impact me personally?  When I discovered that the cleansing of the sanctuary also means cleansing me of all sin, and perfecting me, as Waggoner just stated, then I realized that what Jesus is doing in the sanctuary is of great importance to me.  

    The following quote states that when Jesus cleanses the sanctuary in heaven He is also cleansing us from all sin. “You will talk and we will not be thinking of ourselves and what others are doing, but what God and Jesus are doing…What are they doing?  They are cleansing the sanctuary of our souls of all unrighteousness, that our names may be written in the Lamb’s book of life, that our sins may be blotted out when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.”  (Lift Him Up, p. 216)
 
    The times of refreshing, or the latter rain, comes during the Great Tribulation before probation closes.  “’The commencement of that time of trouble,’ here mentioned does not refer to the time when the plagues shall begin to be poured out, but to a short period just before they are poured out, while Christ is in the sanctuary. At that time, while the work of salvation is closing, trouble will be coming on the earth, and the nations will be angry, yet held in check so as not to prevent the work of the third angel. At that time the ‘latter rain,’ or refreshing from the presence of the Lord, will come, to give power to the loud voice of the third angel, and prepare the saints to stand in the period when the seven last plagues shall be poured out.”  (Early Writings, pp. 85-86)  The Bible tells us the same in the book of Joel.  The fulfillment of the book of Joel occurs during the Great Tribulation before probation closes.  Joel 2:1-11 states that the time is the Great Tribulation, and Joel 2:32 tells us that salvation is still open.  In between these two texts Joel speaks of the latter rain in verse 23.

    God also uses the latter rain to perfect His people.  “As we seek God for the Holy Spirit, it will work in us meekness, humbleness of mind, a conscious dependence upon God for the perfecting latter rain.” (Last Day Events, p. 187)

    Several years ago I looked up every Ellen White quote that contained the word blot and every derivative of blot such as blotting and blotted.  I wanted to find out everything it takes to get one’s sins blotted out.  All I could find was that our sins must be confessed and repented of. The following is a representative quote. “In the typical service, when the work of atonement was performed by the high priest in the most holy place of the earthly sanctuary, the people were required to afflict their souls before God, and confess their sins, that they might be atoned for and blotted out. Will any less be required of us in this antitypical day of atonement, when Christ in the sanctuary above is pleading in behalf of His people, and the final, irrevocable decision is to be pronounced upon every case?”  (Selected Messages, Vol. 1, p. 125)  “Repentance includes sorrow for sin, and a turning away from it.”  (Steps to Christ, p. 23) “Only those who, in their attitude before God, are filling the position of those who are repenting and confessing their sins in the great anti-typical day of atonement, will be recognized and marked as worthy of God’s protection. The names of those who are steadfastly looking and waiting and watching for the appearing of their Saviour—more earnestly and wishfully than they who wait for the morning—will be numbered with those who are sealed.”  (Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers, p. 445)

    In the judgment, when our sins are blotted out, we are sealed.  This sealing places us beyond the power of Satan. "I saw Satan would work more powerfully now than ever he has before. He knows that his time is short and that the sealing of the saints will place them beyond his power." (Manuscript Release, Vol. 8, p. 220)  How does the sealing place us beyond the power of Satan?  If we are given the new nature when we are sealed, then Satan’s temptations will have no more power over us.  In a sinful nature it is easier to do evil than to do good; however in a perfect nature it is easier to do good than to do evil (which is why God says it is a mystery as to how sin ever started).  If it is easier to do good than evil, and after God’s people have personally witnessed over and over what evil does to this world, is sin going to have any more allurements for them?  I think not!

    “Jesus is in His holy temple and will now accept our sacrifices, our prayers, and our confessions of faults and sins and will pardon all the transgressions of Israel, that they may be blotted out before He leaves the sanctuary. When Jesus leaves the sanctuary, then they who are holy and righteous will be holy and righteous still; for all their sins will then be blotted out, and they will be sealed with the seal of the living God. But those that are unjust and filthy will be unjust and filthy still; for then there will be no Priest in the sanctuary to offer their sacrifices, their confessions, and their prayers before the Father's throne. Therefore what is done to rescue souls from the coming storm of wrath must be done before Jesus leaves the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary.” (Early Writings, p. 48)

    As long as we are in this sinful nature we need a Mediator.  If even our best prayers need the mediatorial work of Jesus before these prayers can be presented to the Father, then our sinful nature has to be changed before Jesus leaves the sanctuary and probation closes forever. After Jesus leaves the sanctuary, He will no longer mediate for sin.  God’s people will not sin during the time of the seven last plagues since there is no Mediator, otherwise they will be forever lost.  We are “corrupt channels” and even our best prayers are also corrupt because “they ascend not in spotless purity.” (Selected Messages, Vol. 1, p. 344) Our “corrupt channels,” or sinful natures, have to be changed or we will not be able to stand for one moment after the close of probation without sinning, because our very being is sinful.  Our best efforts are as filthy rags.  Our only hope to be able to stand during this time without a mediator is to have these “corrupt channels” removed and to be given the new nature.

    “An angel returning from the earth announces that his work is done; the final test has been brought upon the world, and all who have proved themselves loyal to the divine precepts have received ‘the seal of the living God.’ Then Jesus ceases His intercession in the sanctuary above. He lifts His hands and with a loud voice says, ‘It is done;’ and all the angelic host lay off their crowns as He makes the solemn announcement: ‘He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.’ Revelation 22:11. Every case has been decided for life or death.”  (Great Controversy, p. 613)

    If Jesus has the power to give us the new nature at the Second Coming as so many believe now, then He has the power to give us this new nature in time to help us when He will no longer mediate and before His Second Coming.  It would be cruel of Jesus to tell us we must not sin during the time of the seven last plagues because He is no longer mediating for us and then leave us in our sinful nature. Our best efforts are still sinful as long as we are in the sinful nature. If even the prayers of God’s true believers are so corrupt they need a Mediator, then something has to change or we will not be able to stand during the seven last plagues without a Mediator. When God’s true believers are praying, they are not in the act of willfully sinning, yet their prayers are still corrupt.

    “So, in the time of trouble, if the people of God had unconfessed sins to appear before them while tortured with fear and anguish, they would be overwhelmed; despair would cut off their faith, and they could not have confidence to plead with God for deliverance. But while they have a deep sense of their unworthiness, they have no concealed wrongs to reveal.  Their sins have gone beforehand to judgment and have been blotted out, and they cannot bring them to remembrance.”   (Great Controversy, p. 620)  God’s people cannot bring their sins to remembrance because these sins have been forever removed from their minds.  Their “corrupt channels” have been removed and their new natures given to them.

    “Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God’s commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression.” (SDA Bible Commentary, Vol. 6, p.  1118)  “There is no change of character when Christ comes.”  (Review and Herald, August 25, 1885)  If we will reach the condition of sinlessness that Adam had before the fall, and if our characters are not changed at the Second Coming, then we must reach Adam’s pre-fall nature before the Second Coming. The change of character, when we are sealed and our new natures are given us, is done on judgment day.  Some say that I am using the words character and nature interchangeably and should not do so.  However, according to Webster’s Dictionary these two words are interchangeable.  Here is Webster’s Dictionary’s definition of character.  "The aggregate of features and traits that form the individual nature of a person or thing." Here is Webster’s Dictionary’s definition of nature.  "The inherent character of a person, animal, or thing."  According to Webster's, one's character is one's nature, and one's nature is one's character.  One cannot separate the two. Since “There is no change of character when Christ comes,” then there is no change of nature when Christ comes, since the two words mean one and the same.

    When Jesus stands up in the sanctuary at the close of probation He pronounces the following words, “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.”  (Revelation 22:11) According to Webster’s Dictionary the word righteous means “acting in an upright, moral way.” The word holy means “spiritually pure.” Jesus has finished the judgment, He has finished sealing all of His people, and He declares them righteous and holy because they are.  The only way they can be holy is if He has given them their new nature.  The whole point of the sanctuary is to show us how God deals with the sin in us and how He removes the sin from us. The reason we need to know this is so we know what we need to do and when.  In order to be saved we must cooperate with  Him.  For instance, unless we repent, we cannot be justified.  Unless we spend time with God in prayer and Bible study, we cannot be sanctified, because “we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.”  (2 Corinthians 3:18) All those who are sanctified are perfected (Hebrews 10:14), and this perfecting (purifying, cleansing) is done on judgment day, and given as a free gift to those who are in the process of sanctification. What wonderful news!  God’s people will have nothing wherein to glory, because Jesus is the one who has given them this wonderful gift.  All praise, honor, and glory goes to Him who does such marvelous things for His people!

    The dead are given this gift of perfection after they are in the grave so that when they rise up at the resurrection they are perfect.  This happens during the judgment of the dead, which is now going on and has been since The Day of Atonement in 1844.  

    Some believe the teaching that we receive the new nature at the judgment is the “holy flesh” doctrine that Ellen White warned us against.  The people who believed in this “holy flesh” doctrine believed that it was impossible for them to sin and they would never die. (Selected Messages, Vol. 2, p. 31)  Since it was impossible for them to sin, they could do whatever they felt like and it would not be sin.  They then began to follow their own desires and soon fell into gross immorality.  What these people were teaching was false because we are never removed from being able to sin.  If having a perfect nature means that it is impossible for us to sin then Lucifer, who was created perfect  (Ezekiel 28:15), would not have been able to sin.  Throughout eternity God’s people will still have the power of choice.  They could still choose to sin.  To remove this power of choice would be to make God’s people more like a machine than a free person.  However, God’s people will not choose to sin. See Nahum 1:9.  Why?  Should anyone ever be tempted, one of us from earth will explain that this terrible experiment has already been tried.  We are God's insurance plan that sin never arises again.

    In reference to this “holy flesh” doctrine, Ellen White wrote, “And while we cannot claim perfection of the flesh, we may have Christian perfection of the soul.”  (Selected Messages, Vol. 2, p. 32)  The perfection of our souls begins with justification at the foot of the cross, carries on through sanctification during the work of the lifetime, and ends with being perfected on the Day of Atonement, at which time Jesus declares us righteous and holy. See Revelation 22:11.  Our bodies will become perfected and receive immortality at the Second Coming. See 1 Corinthians 15:53, 54.

    Zechariah also speaks of the cleansing, or purification, that happens on the Day of Atonement.  “And He shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.  And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan: even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?  Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments (sinful nature), and stood before the angel.  And He answered and spake unto those that stood before Him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him.  And unto him He said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment (new nature)…And I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.” (Zechariah 3:1-4, 9)  [Parentheses inserted] Our iniquity is removed on judgment day.

    “Zechariah’s vision of Joshua and the Angel applies with peculiar force to the experience of God’s people in the closing up of the great day of atonement…The people of God are sighing and crying for the abominations done in the land.  With tears they warn the wicked of their danger in trampling upon the divine law, and with unutterable sorrow they humble themselves before the Lord on account of their own transgressions.  The wicked mock their sorrow, ridicule their solemn appeals, and sneer at what they term their weakness. But the anguish and humiliation of God’s people is unmistakable evidence that they are regaining the strength and nobility of character lost in consequence of sin.  It is because they are drawing nearer to Christ, and their eyes are fixed upon His perfect purity, that they so clearly discern the exceeding sinfulness of sin…As the people of God afflict their souls before Him, pleading for purity of heart, the command is given, ‘Take away the filthy garments’ from them, and the encouraging words are spoken, ‘Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.’  The spotless robe of Christ’s righteousness is placed upon the tried, tempted, yet faithful children of God.  The despised remnant are clothed in glorious apparel, nevermore to be defiled by the corruptions of the world.  Their names are retained in the Lamb’s book of life, enrolled among the faithful of all ages.  They have resisted the wiles of the deceiver; they have not been turned from their loyalty by the dragon’s roar.  Now they are eternally secure from the tempter’s devices.  Their sins are transferred to the originator of sin.  And the remnant are not only pardoned and accepted, but honored.  ‘A fair miter’ is set upon their heads.  They are to be as kings and priests unto God.  While Satan was urging his accusations and seeking to destroy this company, holy angels, unseen, were passing to and fro, placing upon them the seal of the living God…’And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even everyone that is written among the living in Jerusalem.’” [Emphasis added]  (Testimonies, Vol. 5, pp. 472-476)    If God’s remnant people are “clothed in glorious apparel, nevermore to be defiled by the corruptions of the world,” then they will no longer sin after this point or else they would be defiled.  As long as we have a sinful nature, we are defiled; therefore, when God’s people are sealed the sinful nature must be removed from them.

     “When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own.”  (Christ’s Object Lessons, p. 69) Have you ever wondered how this would happen?  Look around and see the elderly who have had many years in this world to perfect their characters and you will not see any of them being perfect.  The obvious question is, How then can I ever become perfect so that Jesus may come?  The answer is that Jesus gives us this gift of perfection at the judgment and He gives this gift to all who are in the process of being sanctified. See Hebrews 10:14.  

    Just as the Bible clearly tells us when the judgment of the dead began, so the Bible also clearly tells us when the judgment of the living will begin.  The message announcing the  judgment given by the first angel in Revelation 14:6-7 will be again repeated with great power, just before the judgment of the living begins.  God does not let such important dates go by unnoticed.  When our sins are blotted out, then we are sealed.  This all happens when we are judged. (See earlier discussion in this section.)  “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.”  (Acts 3:19)  We are refreshed by water.  In the Bible the outpouring of the Holy Spirit is compared to water.  “For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground; I will pour My Spirit upon thy seed, and My blessing upon thine offspring.”  (Isaiah 44:3) “He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth.”  (Psalm 72:6)  “Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord: His going forth is prepared as the morning; and He shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.”  (Hosea 6:3)  “That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil.”  (Deuteronomy 11:14)  In the Bible God compares His people to grain that is planted in the field, which grows, and gives a harvest.  The harvest of God’s people occurs at the Second Coming. See Matthew 13:24-43.  God sends the early rain to cause the grain, or God’s people, to grow spiritually, and then the latter rain is sent to mature the  harvest just before the Second Coming of Jesus.  The early rain of the Holy Spirit was sent at Pentecost shortly after Jesus ascended to heaven.  See Acts 2:1-4.  The Holy Spirit will again be poured out in great measure just before the end of this world.  The prophet Joel tells us that this latter rain of the Holy Spirit will be poured out during the Great Tribulation.  The whole book of Joel is set during this Great Tribulation. Compare Joel 2:1-2,11 with Daniel 12:1.  During this Great Tribulation, the latter rain of the Holy Spirit is poured out.  “Be glad then, ye children of  Zion, and rejoice in the Lord your God: for He hath given you the former rain moderately, and He will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.” (Joel 2:23)  The word month in the preceding text is italicized, meaning the translators added this word and it was not in the original writing of the Bible.  Going back to Acts 3:19, which states that our sins are blotted out during the latter rain of the Holy Spirit, since we already know that the sins are blotted out during the judgment and the latter rain occurs during the Great Tribulation, we can then conclude that the judgment of the living will begin during the Great Tribulation.

    The judgment of the living begins during the refreshing, or latter rain of the Holy Spirit, which happens during the Great Tribulation.  The last generation is the only generation to receive this wonderful gift while they are still alive.  This gift enables them to go through the seven last plagues, which happens after the close of probation, without a mediator, and without sinning.  God’s people cannot sin during that time because there is no mediator.  God knows this and so He gives them the gift of perfection before the close of probation.  When we are perfect then it is easier to do good than to do evil.  God’s people by this time will despise evil so much that they are no longer tempted by evil.

    The Day of Atonement also teach us other lessons.  The following is an example.  Some say that the Bible does not forbid the wearing of jewelry and cite such texts as the parable of the prodigal son in which the Father (who represents God), puts a ring on His son’s finger when His son returns.  In heaven before his fall, Lucifer wore jewelry. See Ezekiel 28:13. We will wear crowns of gold in heaven, which is also jewelry.  When we truly understand the Day of Atonement we learn the real reason why we should not wear jewelry now.  We have been living in the antitypical Day of Atonement since 1844.  Leviticus 16:30 says that on the Day of Atonement we are to be cleansed.  In studying the words cleanse and clean through the Bible we find Genesis 35:1-4, where part of being clean meant to remove their jewelry.  Isaiah 3:16-23 says the daughters of Zion have become haughty and then lists out all the jewelry they are wearing as a result of their haughtiness. Just a few verses later, in Isaiah 4:4, God says that He will wash away the filth (part of which is wearing jewelry according to the verses just quoted) of the daughters of Zion “by the spirit of judgment.”  The judgment of the dead began on the Day of Atonement in 1844.  God is telling us that while living in the Day of Atonement we are not to wear jewelry.  In Isaiah 3:24-25 the fate of those who refuse to remove their jewelry is stated.  “And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty.  Thy men shall fall by the sword, and thy mighty in the war.”  

    Ellen White has a very interesting comment about the verses just quoted.  “The prophecy of Isaiah 3 was presented before me as applying to these last days, and the reproofs are given to the daughters of Zion who have thought only of appearance and display. Read verse 25: ‘Thy men shall fall by the sword, and thy mighty in the war.’ I was shown that this scripture will be strictly fulfilled.”  (Testimonies, Vol. 1, p. 270)

    The reason why God does not want us to wear jewelry now is because the last generation has to face the greatest of Satan’s deceptions and the most difficult times of earth’s history while still remaining faithful to God.  The only purpose for jewelry is for love of appearance; except for watches, jewelry has no practical purpose.  In a sinful state the love of appearance fosters pride.  In a perfect state we will be able to handle wearing jewelry without being tempted to sin.

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on March 01, 2004, 05:41:00 AM
Dear sister, could you explain the condition of the heart at baptism?
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Ele Holmes on March 02, 2004, 05:33:00 AM
The subject of the sanctuary and the investigative judgment should be clearly understood by the people of God.  All need a knowledge for themselves of the position and work of their great High Priest.  Otherwise, it will be impossible for them to exercise the faith which is essential at this time, or to occupy  the position which God designs them to fill.  Every individual has a soul to save or to lose.  Each has a case pending at the bar of God.   Ev. 221

In the parable of Matthew 22 the same figure of the marriage is introduced, and the investgative judgment is clearly represented as taking place before the marriage.  Previous to the wedding the king comes in to see the guests, to see if all are attired in the wedding garment, the spotless robe of character washed and made white in the blood of the Lamb.  He who is found wanting is cast out, but all who are seen to have the wedding garment on are accepted of God and accounted worthy of a share in His kingdom.... GC 428

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on March 06, 2004, 04:42:00 PM
Amen, Sister Ele!

Character is something that is received and formed prior to the coming of Christ. If when we go into the grave, we have not a perfected character we shall not go home with the Lord.

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: M.A. Crawford on March 11, 2004, 03:51:00 PM
"Throughout eternity God's people will still have the power of choice. They could still choose to sin."

Ms. Miller, it is true that throughout eternity God's people will have the power of choice, but I do not agree with your statement that during eternity God's people could still choose to sin because it is contrary to what the Bible teaches. The Bible VERY CLEARLY tells us:

"What do you imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up a second time." Nahum 1:9.

The Bible very clearly states that the Lord will make an utter end: AFFLICTION SHALL NOT RISE UP A SECOND TIME!!! And there is a reason why sin shall not rise up a second time:

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi 4:1.

Please notice that the Bible says the day is coming that shall burn them (sin and sinners) up, LEAVING THEM NEITHER ROOT NOR BRANCH!!! And if there will be neither root nor branch, then there will be NO POINT OF REFERENCE from which sin can arise a second time! All who enter into God's Kingdom WILL HAVE OVERCOME SIN IN THIS LIFE for all eternity. There will be no SMOLDERING EMBERS OF POTENTIAL SIN entering into God's Holy Realm.

M.A.

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Ele Holmes on March 11, 2004, 05:15:00 PM
Amen  M.A.
 "The death of Christ upon the cross made sure the destruction of him who has the power of death, who was the originator of sin.  When Satan is destroyed, there will be none to tempt to evil, the atonement will never need to be repeated, and there will be no danger of another rebellion in the universe of God.  That which alone can effectually restrain from sin in this world of darkness, WILL PREVENT SIN IN HEAVEN."    5BC  1132

"The habits of speech, the character of our actions, put a mold upon us, and that which we cultivate in our association with others in this life, goes down into the grave with us, and will be UNCHANGED when we shall come up from the grave....."  ST 11-14-92

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Jean Miller on March 13, 2004, 05:52:00 AM
Richard, you asked for the condition of the heart at baptism.  At baptism, a person has been justified, and the process of sanctification is beginning.  Should that person die at that time they are saved because they are covered by the blood of Jesus.

M.A. Crawford, I totally agree with you that sin will never enter the universe again.  I am familiar with the quotes that you quoted and I believe them.  What I was meaning is that God does NOT take away the power of choice.  We could still choose to sin, but we will not, because we know the horrible results of sin.  In fact, I believe that we are God's insurance plan that sin will never rise again, because, should someone in the eons down the road ever be tempted, we will be there to say, "That experimented has been tried and this is the horrible result.  We experienced it and saw it ourselves and you don't want to try that."  

M.A. Crawford--do you believe that in heaven we will no longer have the power of choice?  Ellen White makes it clear that God has given us the power of choice--because if He didn't, then we would be more like a machine or a robot.  In fact, here is her quote that says this:  

"There are thousands today echoing the same rebellious complaint against God. They do not see that to deprive man of the freedom of choice would be to rob him of his prerogative as an intelligent being and make him a mere automaton. It is not God's purpose to coerce the will. Man was created a free moral agent. Like the inhabitants of all other worlds, he must be subjected to the test of obedience; but he is never brought into such a position that yielding to evil becomes a matter of necessity. No temptation or trial is permitted to come to him which he is unable to resist. God made such ample provision that man need never have been defeated in the conflict with Satan."--PP 331, 332 (1890).

[This message has been edited by Jean Miller (edited 03-13-2004).]

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Liane H on March 13, 2004, 08:28:00 AM
Hi Sister Jean:

I am taking a liberity here to repeat your statement in the above post:

"I believe that we are God's insurance plan that sin will never rise again, because, should someone in the eons down the road ever be tempted, we will be there to say, That experimented has been tried and this is the horrible result. We experienced it and saw it ourselves and you don't want to try that."

We are never to look to other men here or in the life of eternity with God. What we will see for all eternity is what will never allow sin to rise again:

"The Lord Jesus, who is the image of the invisible God, gave His own life to save perishing man, and, oh, what light, what power, He brings with Him! In Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead, bodily. What a mystery of mysteries! It is difficult for the reason to grasp the majesty of Christ, the mystery of redemption. The shameful cross has been upraised, the nails have been driven through His hands and feet, the cruel spear has pierced to His heart, and the redemption price has been paid for the human race. The spotless Lamb of God bore our sins in His own body upon the tree; He carried our sorrows.  {1SM 402.4}

If this does not stop us from sinning or anyone in the universe, then nothing will.

Liane

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Jean Miller on March 13, 2004, 02:28:00 PM
I agree with you  Sister Liane.  The nail prints in Jesus' hands will be the biggest deterrent to sin rising again.  I believe that God will also use our testimony as well.  I believe it is both.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Sister Marie on March 13, 2004, 03:44:00 PM
It will indeed be both sister Jean. We will never forget or stop talking about what Jesus has done for us.  :)

------------------
With Christian Love,
Sister Marie

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Liane H on March 13, 2004, 04:01:00 PM
I wonder about this myself. Let us read Revelation:

21:1   And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.  
21:2   And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.  
21:3   And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.  
21:4   And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.  

If all former things have passed away. God shall wipe away our tears, there will be no more death, nor sorrow or cyring, nor pain afor all former things are passed away.

What shall we remember I wonder? Will we remember how we sinned against God? How we suffered from illness, pain and death? Would not seeing those marks on His hands bring tears to our eyes? Will we remember what caused them?

I do wonder!

Liane

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on March 13, 2004, 05:00:00 PM
Sister Jean, when your name comes up in the investigative judgment will your thoughts and deeds be examined?
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Sister Marie on March 13, 2004, 08:40:00 PM
Sister Liane's Comment

What shall we remember I wonder? Will we remember how we sinned against God? How we suffered from illness, pain and death? Would not seeing those marks on His hands bring tears to our eyes? Will we remember what caused them?
=============================
I believe there will be just what is needed to be left in our memories so we can praise God forever for our Salvation. However, when we remember, it will not be with tears, it will be with GREAT JOY! There will be no more pain, no more tears, only joy in whatever we remember. I feel it is the pain and the sorrow, the tears that are all wiped away, and with it things that would bring sad painful tears to us. But forever we will recall how Jesus saved us and what He and the Father/Holy Spirit went through to do this.

------------------
With Christian Love,
Sister Marie

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Jean Miller on March 15, 2004, 06:24:00 AM
Of course, Brother Richard, all who profess the name of Jesus will have their thoughts and deeds examined, and since I profess the name of Jesus, then yes, mine will be examined as well.

The Bible does not tell us exactly what we will remember after the millennium, but Ellen White does tell us what we will remember after we are sealed.  Here it is:

“So, in the time of trouble, if the people of God had unconfessed sins to appear before them while tortured with fear and anguish, they would be overwhelmed; despair would cut off their faith, and they could not have confidence to plead with God for deliverance. But while they have a deep sense of their unworthiness, they have no concealed wrongs to reveal.  Their sins have gone beforehand to judgment and have been blotted out, and they cannot bring them to remembrance.”   (Great Controversy, p. 620)  

I believe that in heaven we will not be able to remember our individual sins because they have been blotted out of the books of heaven and out of our minds.  However, since we will be able to view the nail prints in the hands of Jesus forever, I believe we will remember the horrible effects of sin and that is why we will never be tempted to sin again and sin will never rise again.  

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Sister Marie on March 15, 2004, 07:39:00 AM
We will see those scares in Jesus hands,feet and side forever. And He will be like us forever. Both would be rather meaningless if we did not remember "anything" that would tell us the story of those scares in our own life.

Another thought, We are told that we will witness the saving grace of Christ to us personally, to all the other worlds throughout time. The love and forgiveness Christ showered on us. His walk with death and suffering and betrayal, all for us. We would have nothing "personally" to witness if we did not remember what Jesus did for us personally. But our witness will be with great joy and there will be no sorrow in our voice as we tell it.

I do not doubt that love ones lost will be wiped away after the thousand years in which we go through the books. Then we will understand why some of those we love did not make it and we will be a peace with it. I don't know if all that will be wiped away afterwards or not. Sees like a waste of time if the memory of them is going to be taken away anyway. (They will be judged true) I'm not sure on these things, but the reasons above make me feel that at least our personal experience with the Lord's saving us will always be remembered so we can give witness to it for eternity, as we are told we will do.

------------------
With Christian Love,
Sister Marie

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on March 15, 2004, 09:06:00 AM
Sister Jean, what is the purpose for examining your sins?
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Jean Miller on March 15, 2004, 04:23:00 PM
Brother Richard, in the Investigative Judgment God examines the records of every person who professes the name of Jesus.  Those who have confessed their sins will have the blood of Jesus covering these sins.  Those who have their sins covered by the blood of Jesus will have these sins blotted out of all records of these sins in the universe (our minds, the mind of God, and the records of heaven), they are then perfected, sealed and saved. Those who don't have their sins confessed and covered by the blood of Jesus will not be sealed and will then be lost. So, the purpose is to perfect God's people and determine who is to be sealed and saved and who is not.

“Jesus is in His holy temple and will now accept our sacrifices, our prayers, and our confessions of faults and sins and will pardon all the transgressions of Israel, that they may be blotted out before He leaves the sanctuary. When Jesus leaves the sanctuary, then they who are holy and righteous will be holy and righteous still; for all their sins will then be blotted out, and they will be sealed with the seal of the living God. But those that are unjust and filthy will be unjust and filthy still; for then there will be no Priest in the sanctuary to offer their sacrifices, their confessions, and their prayers before the Father's throne. Therefore what is done to rescue souls from the coming storm of wrath must be done before Jesus leaves the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary.” (Early Writings, p. 48)

[This message has been edited by Jean Miller (edited 03-15-2004).]

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on March 15, 2004, 05:25:00 PM
Sister Jean how does Jesus judge who is worthy? Is there a standard to be used to measure us when Jesus determines "who is to be sealed and saved and who is not."
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Jean Miller on March 15, 2004, 08:16:00 PM
Brother Richard, several years ago I looked up on the Ellen White CDRom every single quote that contained the words "blot, blotted, botting" as I wanted to know exactly what it takes for our sins to be blotted out.  I also looked up every single quote that contained the words "seal, sealed, sealing."  As you can imagine, this took h ours. The quote I quoted in my last post shows that when our sins are blotted out we are sealed; thus the blotting out of sins and the sealing occurs at the same time at the judgment.  So, whatever it takes for our sins to be blotted out is what it takes for us to be sealed.  The only prerequisite I could find is that we have our sins confessed and forgiven.  Here are some representative quotes:

"Confess your sins to God, and He will never betray your trust.  Although we are sinners, He will pardon abundantly. 'If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.' He marks our contrition of soul; and sins will go beforehand to judgment; and when the times of refreshing shall come, they will be blotted out by the blood of the Lamb, and our names will be retained in the Lamb's book of life.  'Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.   Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity.'"  Advent Review & Ssabbath Herald, May 7, 1889, p. 6.

“My brethren, if you expect your sins to be blotted out by the blood of Christ, you must confess them… ‘If we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Let our sins go beforehand to judgment, that they may be blotted out when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.” MR, Vol, 3, p. 418

"All sin unrepented of an unconfessed, will remain upon the books of record.  It will not be blotted out, it will not go beforehand to Judgment, to be canceled by the atoning blood of Jesus." Advent Review & Sabbath Herald, March 27, 1888.  

"Are we by repentance and confession sending our sins beforehand to Judgment, that they may be blotted out when the times of refreshing shall come?  This is an individual work,--a work which we cannot safely delay.  We should take hold of it earnestly; our salvation depends upon our sincerity and zeal.  Let the cry be awakened in every heart, 'What must I do to be saved?'" Second Advent Review & Sabbath Herald, Aug 28, 1883.

Yes, heaven and salvation are cheap enough!  The only prerequisite is to have our sins confessed and repented of!  This is the beauty of the gospel.  Those who daily confess their sins and are in a constant state of repentance are in the process of sanctification.  And, the Bible tells us the God will perfect those who are being sanctified.  "For by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."  Hebrews 10:14  And those whom He has perfected will be sealed and taken to heaven.

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Jean Miller on March 15, 2004, 08:20:00 PM
I thought all of you would also like to see some beautiful Bible texts on the blotting out of sins.  Here they are:

“I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and as a cloud, thy sins; return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.  Sing, O ye heavens; for the Lord hath done it; shout, ye lower parts of the earth; break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest and every tree therein; for the Lord hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified Himself in Israel.”  (Isaiah 44:22,23)  

“The blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”  (1 John 1:7)  

“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.” (Hebrews 10:16,17)  

“He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.” (Revelation3:5)  

“Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.” (Isaiah 1:18)  

“I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.” (Isaiah 43:25)  

“Thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.” (Micah 7:19)

“I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.”  (Isaiah 13:12)  

These texts are beautiful promises of what God is going to do for us in the judgment.  This is why the judgment is something to look forward to with great joy!

[This message has been edited by Jean Miller (edited 03-15-2004).]

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: M.A. Crawford on March 17, 2004, 08:59:00 AM
"M. A. Crawford--do you believe that in heaven we will no longer have the power of choice?"

No. I do not believe that in Heaven we will no longer have the power of choice. God created us as free moral agents with the power to choose (Joshua 24:15), and nowhere in God's Word does it say that this power will be taken away from those who enter into God's Kingdom. The problem that I have is this next quotation:

"We could still choose to sin, but will not, because we know the horrible results of sin."

Heaven is not a place where ANY ASPECT OR POSSIBILITY of sin exists. Therefore, I do not believe it is possible the redeemed could choose to sin because of the following reasons:

(1). "...Affliction shall not rise up the second time." Nahum 1:9.

If affliction shall not rise up the second time, IT IS THEREFORE IMPOSSIBLE FOR IT TO RISE UP IN HEAVEN.

(2). "God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." Revelation 21:4.  

The redeemed will not know "the horrible results of sin" described in Revelation 21:4 above because the Bible says the former things are passed away; meaning that, in Heaven, THEY WON'T EVEN COME TO MIND!! Since in Heaven the former things of this life are passed away, I therefore believe that sin and sinners will be as if they never existed.

Whatever we believe unto salvation MUST BE BASED UPON THE WORD OF GOD if it is to have any redeeming value.

M.A.    

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on March 17, 2004, 12:38:00 PM
Sister Jean, your answer to my question is interesting. While I agree with what you say about needing to have our sins confessed, I think the answer is to be a little different. Then it raises some questions about some of what you have said in former posts.

There is a standard in the judgment. I assume you have read this entire topic and understand what that standard is. Yet, you refrain from saying it. The standard by which we will be judged is God's law, the ten commandments. Yes, there are some statements to be made in respect as to how the law will be applied to each case, but it is the standard. Will you agree with this?

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Jean Miller on March 17, 2004, 06:26:00 PM
Absolutely, Richard, the standard is the law. And when we have our sins confessed, the blood of Jesus covers us, and when God looks at our record, since the blood of Jesus is covering us, all God sees is the perfect life of Jesus who kept the law perfectly.  He sees Jesus' righteousness (perfect observance of the law) covering us.  It is all one and the same.  I don't think you can separate it.

What are you driving at?  What is your main point?  What do you think the answer should be?  And how does this relate to my previous posts?

[This message has been edited by Jean Miller (edited 03-17-2004).]

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Jean Miller on March 17, 2004, 06:52:00 PM
M.A. I absolutely believe the Bible where it says that sin will not arise again. But, to say that this is because we no longer have the ability to choose sin means that God has taken away our free choice, which goes against the following Ellen White quotes:

"God does not force the will of His creatures. He cannot accept an homage that is not willingly and intelligently given. A mere forced submission would prevent all real development of mind or character; it would make man a mere automaton. Such is not the purpose of the Creator. He desires that man, the crowning work of His creative power, shall reach the highest possible development.”  God’s Amazing Grace, p. 313.  If we no longer have freedom of choice then we cannot reach the highest possible development—this is what she is saying here.

“There are thousands today echoing the same rebellious complaint against God. They do not see that to deprive man of the freedom of choice would be to rob him of his prerogative as an intelligent being and make him a mere automaton. It is not God's purpose to coerce the will. Man was created a free moral agent. Like the inhabitants
of all other worlds, he must be subjected to the test of obedience; but he is never brought into such a position that yielding to evil becomes a matter of necessity. No temptation or trial is permitted to come to him which he is unable to resist. God made such ample provision that man need never have been defeated in the conflict with
Satan.”--PP 331, 332 (1890).

“God placed man under law, as an indispensable condition of his very existence. He was a subject of the divine government, and there can be no government without law. God might have created man without the power to transgress His law; He might have withheld the hand of Adam from touching the forbidden fruit; but in that case man would have been, not a free moral agent, but a mere automaton. Without freedom of choice, his
obedience would not have been voluntary, but forced. There could have been no development of character. Such a course would have been contrary to God's plan in dealing with the inhabitants of other worlds. It would have been unworthy of man as an intelligent being, and would have sustained Satan's charge of God's arbitrary rule.” Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 49.  

If we are no longer free to choose evil, then Satan was right about God having arbitrary rule—this is what Ellen White is saying.  But, since the Bible says that sin will never rise again, then obviously no one in the universe will choose sin.  They could, but they won’t.  Why should they, when this terrible experiment has already been tried and the results clearly shown? And, as long as we can see the nailprints in Jesus' hands (which will be forever) then we will be reminded of the terrible results of sin.  Yes, the specifics of evil we won't remember--like what sins we committed--but we will always be reminded of the horrible results of sin by the nailprints in Jesus' hands.


[This message has been edited by Jean Miller (edited 03-17-2004).]

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on March 17, 2004, 07:43:00 PM
I don't agree, Sister Jean. There is an aspect of what you say that I agree with, but the law is the standard that our actions, thoughts, and motives are compared to. It is not the perfect life of Christ that  is compared to the law in the judgment. There is a purpose for the investigation. It is to be seen by the heavenly intelligences that those who inherit eternal life are safe to take to heaven. It is their personal character that is being judged.

Their characters must meet with the law of God. What does this prove? It shows that they indeed did confess their sins. It shows that they were repentant. If their motives and their thoughts are seen to be selfish, they were not forgiven and they will not be. They will be shown to be lost because their deeds and thoughts do not reveal conversion when their probations were closed.

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Jean Miller on March 18, 2004, 04:23:00 AM
Absolutely, Richard, I agree with what you are saying.  I think you are just not understanding me.  In addition to our lives being covered by the blood of Jesus we have to be growing in sanctification (our ability to keep the law) daily.  If we are not growing in sanctification then we are not truly repentant.

However, for those who die before they have a chance to participate much in the process of sanctification, the blood of Jesus covering them is sufficient.  For instance, the thief on the cross.  How much time did he have to perfect his character?  Not much. But he was truly repentant and the blood of Jesus covers him and in the judgment God will perfect him.  

[This message has been edited by Jean Miller (edited 03-18-2004).]

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Ele Holmes on March 18, 2004, 06:51:00 AM
Richard, sorry to step in, but just wrote out the answer this morning.

Dear Jean, I agree with you.  In today's Sabbath School one Quote fits your statement.  "The love of God now reaches out to embrace the lowest, vilest sinner that will come to Christ WITH CONTRITION."  And that is the only way.  Otherwise "The disobedient will be punished. The wrath of God fell upon his beloved Son as Christ hung on the cross of Calvary in the transgressor's place."  "Sin is the transgrassion of the law, and the Arm that is now mighty to save will be strong to punish when the transgressor passes the bounds that limit divine forbearanc4e.  He refuses to seek for life, who will not search the Scriptures to see what is truth.....will be left in blindness of mind and to the deceptions of Satan...."

Richard, This has come up often... Please answer this one....Someone who leads a decent life, loves the Lord but one day  as we all do, he sinned, gets into his car, is killed....Is he lost?  Some do not know nor understand this statement.

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on March 18, 2004, 08:59:00 AM
Satan is very deceptive. We are in need of wisdom from on high to understand this point correctly. Few really understand that the gospel is very simple and that it is human reasoning without the aid of the Holy Spirit that makes of no effect the Word of God.

The point that Sister Jean and I are studying is very important. We need to see it very clearly. It is not difficult, but it is necessary that we each understand what is required.

Sister Ele, you understand the issue. Your question gets right to the heart of the matter. In order to save that person you give the example for, we must void the Word of God. If a man dies unrepentant, the Bible says he is lost. We may not say otherwise. If we attempt to change the Word here, we will then have to change the investigative judgment. In the judgment we see that it is indeed a narrow road to heaven. We cannot change the judgment. The law of God is the standard by which all will be judged.

Jesus will defend those who died in Christ. He will not defend those who died outside of Christ. "Verily verily I say unto you, unless a man be born again, he shall not see the kingdom of God." "The wages of sin is death." We do not believe in once saved always saved. If a man turn from his righteousness and commit iniquity, I will not remember his rightousness is the principle here.

God is not arbitrary and he will not allow a believer to be lost when he has been faithful as Moses, Elijah, and Job and then sins a sin. But, God cannot take a man to heaven unrepentant. The judgment will reveal the condition of the heart at death. If the man was in Christ, he goes to heaven. How can the universe tell? By comparing the deeds, words, thoughts, and motives which are all recorded in the books of heaven. There will be no unseen thought that the man would have been good. No, it is what is recorded as compared to the law of God.

Are there other considerations? Yes. "To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin." God will not require a full knowledge of the law. There will be mercy granted to those who did not understand if they were not willfully ignorant. This does not allow anyone to go to heaven without a perfect moral character. They may keep the wrong day, eat the wrong food, dress immodestly, but they may not be selfish. The motives of the heart are recorded for all to see and here in the saved will be seen a reflection of the character of Christ. A perfect moral character is the requirement for all who will enter heaven. They must be as Jesus in this respect. For these the Lord will speak up. He will plead His blood for their past sins and their ignorance of the parts of the law they unknowingly broke.

Sister Ele, we can know that God is perfectly just and merciful. It is well within His power to extend the life of you, me, or anyone who still has an ear to hear His Spirit. None die that Christ does not allow to die. That one would be lost in sin when he lived a holy life is a spurious argument. It ignores the power of God to protect His children until their probation is closed. The argument was devised to set aside the gospel. It opens the door for a man to be saved in his sin. It a most dangerous deception and here we see the result of the argument extending into the heavenly sanctuary during the investigative judgment.

The death of Uzzah is an example. He died in his sin. The man who dies in his sin, like Uzzah will be understood to have not been living a holy life. Man looks on the outward life, but God looks upon the heart. This is what will be revealed in the investigative judgment. It will be seen clearly that the man who died in his sin was not living a holy life up to that point.

This is the purpose of the judgment. It is not for God, for He already knows the heart. It is for the universe to know that God is just and merciful. It is for the safety of the universe for eternity. All questions regardings God's character will be answered. All charges against God will be answered in the judgment. God is seen as a God of both justice and mercy. It will be seen to what geat lengths our God went to save those in rebellion against Him.

The blood of Christ will not cover one unconfessed or unforsaken sin. We are here speaking of known sin. It is the moral character of the individual that will be investigated in the heavenly sanctuary. Are we ready to face such an investigation? Has our character been perfected so that we reflect our Saviour? The thief on the cross was perfect in Christ. This will be seen when the books are opened. His motives were all pure and holy. He had peace in the middle of the storm when the disciples of Christ did not. His faith reached beyond what his eyes could see and the righteousness of Christ became his. This character is offered to us today. Let us receive it.

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: M.A. Crawford on March 18, 2004, 10:08:00 AM
"Richard, This has come up often... Please answer this one.... Someone who leads a decent life, loves the Lord but one day as we all do, he sinned, gets into his car, is killed.... Is he lost? Some do not know nor understand this statement."

I am not Richard--as you refer to him--but I will respond to the above question because it is asked here in the Bread of Life forum.

"...the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outer appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart." 1 Samuel 16:7.

The Bible very clearly tells us that man does not see as God sees: man looks on the outer appearance, but God looks on the heart. This is why no human being can accurately answer the question you asked BECAUSE ONLY GOD KNOWS THE THOUGHTS AND MOTIVES OF THE HUMAN HEART (MIND).

(1) "Someone who...loves the Lord...."

Jesus tells us in His Word: If you love Me, keep My Commandments (John 14:15). This is why I HAVE MAJOR PROBLEMS when an individual tries to tell or convince me how much he or she loves the Lord BUT WILL NOT DO WHAT GOD SAYS IN HIS WORD!!! There are many Biblical injunctions and warnings that go unheeded BECAUSE MANY DON'T KNOW THEY ARE THERE because they are waiting for the preacher or someone to tell them WHAT THEY COULD READ FOR THEMSELVES!! There are many, but permit me to illustrate what I have reference to with one such example from the Word of God:

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revelings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in times past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Galatians 5:19-21.

How many have heard these Bible texts preached from the pulpit lately--or at any time, for that matter? Yet these texts (and others like them) have been in the Bible all the time. Paul is here writing NOT TO THOSE IN THE WORLD, but to those in the church at Galatia. He makes it very clear, in no uncertain terms, that those who do these things, written therein, SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD!!! God says what He means, and He, most assuredly, means what He says!! The works of the flesh described above that would keep the Galatians out of the Kingdom ARE STILL THE SAME ONES that will keep those out today who do them. God has not changed (Mal. 3:6). HE IS THE SAME GOD, yesterday, today, and forever (Heb. 13:8).

(2)"...but one day...he sinned...[and] is killed.... Is he lost?"

As stated above, no human being knows the answer to that question. WHAT WE DO KNOW IS God is a God of Love (1 John 4:8). He is interested IN SAVING MEN'S LIVES, not destroying them:

"And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he steadfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem, And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. And they did not receive them, because his face was as though he would go to Jersusalem. And when his disciples saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives but to save them. And they went to another village." Luke 9:51-56.

The kind of sin this individual may have committed before he was killed in a car accident is not mentioned. There is, however, one sin of which there is no pardon. It is the sin against the Holy Ghost (Matt. 12:31). If this individual did not commit this sin, then "all manner of sin," the Bible says, "shall be forgiven unto men" (Matt. 12:31). As to whether he is saved or not, the answer is still WE DON'T KNOW because ONLY GOD knows the mind of this individual AND HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS CHRIST before he died. This is the reason why it is of paramount importance to read our Bibles. And not just read Them, but also to be DOERS OF THE WORD, instead of "hearers" only (James 1:22):  

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing assunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Hebrews 4:12.

AND NO OTHER BOOK ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH can make that claim!!! Friends, let us therefore return to the Word of God, and become a practitioner of that Word WHILE THERE IS STILL TIME TO DO SO!

M.A.  

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Sister Marie on March 18, 2004, 10:34:00 AM
1.  I trust Jesus to do what is right for us. So if Brother Richard is correct and a otherwise righteous man who had slipped then died before asking forgiveness is lost, it leaves me to realize that God would not have allowed that man to die if his heart was right with God and savable. He would have given the man a chance to ask for forgiveness.

2.  However, if the issue is that "only God knows the thoughts and motives of the human heart (mind)" and that comes into play here, God would save him according to how He knows the mans heart is.

I agree with M.A. We cannot answer this question anymore than we can say "all" men that commit suicide are lost. There are many cases where only God knows the answer. Whether He chooses to let the man die and save him because his heart is right with him even though he slipped, or whether He would not allow a man whose heart is right with him to die till he could ask forgiveness, is not really for us to know I don't think. The Bible seems to work both sides. So I think that it depends on the personal case to case. God does what He knows is right for each person.

------------------
With Christian Love,
Sister Marie

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Jean Miller on March 18, 2004, 12:00:00 PM
Brother Richard, I agree with what you are saying.  I don't understand why you seem to have a problem with what I am saying.

About the righteous man who sins and then is killed, I believe that if he is a truly righteous man he will repent the instant he knows he sinned.  If he doesn't, then he is  not a truly righteous man.  I believe that a true Christian lives in a constant state of repentance of heart.  

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Sister Marie on March 18, 2004, 07:17:00 PM
Good Point Sister Jean

------------------
With Christian Love,
Sister Marie

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Clive Nevell on April 29, 2004, 06:05:00 AM
There is one thing we can be very sure on and that is that God will not make a mistake in the judgement.

The judgement is open so that all will see why that person is not there. Jesus says that He will wipe away all tears and the memory of them is forgotten.

Clive

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on April 29, 2004, 06:33:00 AM
Amen, Brother Clive.

Sister Jean, Moses was indeed a Godly man, he is in heaven. But, not all truly converted Christians are brought to repentance after they sin as quickly as Moses was when he struck the rock.

Our Christian experience varies from person to person. Some who are new in the faith, may spend days before they repent of a sin. This is not the issue in the judgment. While there is danger in slow repentance, in the judgment there is only one concern. What was the condition of the professor of God at the time his probation closed. Was he walking in the light at that time?

There are some perplexing questions surrounding this question, but it does not change the standard in the judgment. The character is fixed and the judgment will reveal the character of the individual at the time of his death. The idea that it is not the person's character, but that Christ's character stands in our place is widely taught. We need to be very clear on this point or many will one day be disappointed to find out it was their character that needed to be perfected in order to attaint to eternal life.

If we desire to be saints in heaven, we must first be saints upon this earth. This is heresy to many professing Christians today.

[This message has been edited by Richard Myers (edited 04-30-2004).]

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Ele Holmes on April 29, 2004, 04:53:00 PM
To Jean, Richard, Clive, Marie.... I had to throw this in at this most appropriate time!

I dreamed death came the other night,
And heavens gate swung wide,
With kindly grace an angel
Ushered me inside.

And then to my astonishment
Stood folk I'd known on earth;
Some I'd judged and labled
As "unfit" or of "no worth."

Questioning words rose to my lips,
But never were set free;
Yet every face showed stunned surprise,
Not one expected me.

So you see, we are to leave it to the Lord, and when we get there, we will soon see who made it or who did not.  That first thousand years will be painful for some of us when we see some that didn't show, and then again surprise to see those we didn't expect.  God help us all to be there.

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on April 30, 2004, 10:20:00 AM
Yes, Sister Ele, none are to climb upon the judgment seat and render a verdict as to the final condition of those in this world. Only God can read the heart.

The subject in this topic does not concern itself with the verdict of a particular individual, but only the Scriptural basis for the judgment. This we are to understand. God already knows the verdict before the books are opened. The subject is vital to us today that we may not be deceived as to the standard that will be applied. Those that will enter into heaven will have to measure with the commandments of God. "Here are they that keep the commandments of God." This is an unpopular message today as was the message of Noah just prior to the flood.

When the books are opened in this judgment, all of the thoughts, deeds, and the very motives are written down for all to see. The question will not be what one was in the past, but what the person was at the time of the close of his/her probation. This will be clearly seen by what is written in the books. Satan will want death to the sinner, but Christ pleads His blood for the sins of the past for those who learned to love and obey. Those who never allowed God to change their characters and believed that the character of Christ would stand in place of their own will be lost, forever lost.

It is a narrow steep road that leads to heaven and this doctrine stands in the way of Satan as he attempts to move all onto the wide road to perdition. None should despair of reaching heaven for it is the grace of Christ that provides the power to get there. It is ours to accept or reject.

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on August 20, 2006, 12:18:00 AM
With the current Sabbath School study of 1844 and Judgment, this topic becomes important. The current lesson in the quarterly does not appear to be in hamrony with Scripture. A review of what has been posted here will provide our church members with some help in discerning what is happening.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on August 20, 2006, 12:51:00 AM
The Investigative Judgment which began in 1844 is not complicated. There is a review of the truth that we have been given as a people. Please read through it The Investigative Judgment and then discuss it here.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: asygo on August 21, 2006, 09:08:00 PM
 
quote:
The current lesson in the quarterly does not appear to be in hamrony with Scripture.

Bro Richard,

Can you give me a quick rundown of what you believe is wrong with the quarterly? I haven't really been following it this quarter, but I didn't see anything wrong with what I did read. I studied week 8 because I taught it in SS, and I didn't catch anything (but I didn't really read the quarterly, I did my own research).

------------------
By God's grace,
Arnold M. Sy Go
-end-

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on August 21, 2006, 11:48:00 PM
Brother Arnold, we studied the Investigative Judgment two or so years ago and here we have it again. The subject is The Gospel, 1844, and Judgment. We spend three months to cover this important subject. As I view the condition of the truth in the church, I am happy that we again study this subject for it is the one topic that Satan hates. Ford attacked it for good reason. In the Hebrew sanctuary service we see the true gospel. And in the Day of Atonement service we have the gospel revealed in such beauty and simplicity that Satan's deceptions are unmasked.

But, as you point out, you can study for three months and see truth, but I ask you, do you see the truth? The truth can be presented in very few words and we need not spend three months to unmask Satan's lie about the gospel. Compare the article I linked on our homepage to the SS lesson and tell me you see it presented as such. It is not and one need not speculate as to why the lesson does not bring out the truths about the gospel, 1844, and Judgment.

My dear Brother Arnold, you have spiritual discernment. Look for what is missing and you will see why the concern. And, it is too late to let it go. We must stand up and present the love of Christ and the power of His grace to change us. God demands this from us. The "evangelical gospel" must be revealed for what it is and how it has obscured the truth in so many churches.

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on August 23, 2006, 08:21:00 PM
The "investigative judgment" is foreshadowed in the Hebrew Sanctuary service on the Day of Atonement. But, the cleansing of the sanctuary was needful because during the year, sins were taken into it. This is all symbolic of the work being done in heaven.

When a repentant sinner would confess his sins and bring his offering to the sanctuary, his sins were taken away when he killed his sacrifice. This death was a symbol of the death of Christ. And, the sins were forgiven, but not abolished. They were taken into the sanctuary on earth and this represented the recording of the sins in the sanctuary in heaven. These sins would remain in the books of heaven until the day that the person's name would come before the ruler of all worlds for an examination.

This examination would reveal to the universe if the "professor" was indeed dead to self and a true believer. There are many who profess to serve God, but server Him not. Jesus will say to them, "depart from me, for I never knew you." But, in the IJ, the universe will get to see why it is that some go to heaven and others do not.

When the books are opened, the sins of the person are revealed. Satan makes sure that the universe sees these sins. If the invidividual died with all sins confessed and forsaken, then Christ will stand up and continue the examination by presenting from another book in heaven. This book reveals all of the "good deeds". Jesus will point to the good deeds and he will also reveal to the universe something very interesting. He has proof that the Christian was indeed a Christian. He points to the recordings in the book that reveal the good words....and the good thoughts. Now these thoughts did not earn the person salvation, but they reveal that a power from above was working in the life. Self was dead. Not only were the works revealed, but just as in the other books that recorded the bad deeds, this book has recorded the motives of all the deeds that were of heavenly origin. So, while God read the heart, He also recorded the results and thus the proof of one's condition at death or the close of probation is seen by the universe as this examination is conducted.

The deeds of those that will inherit eternal life will be compared to the law of God. The character of the true Christian will be in harmony with the law to the extent he knew the law. Those who continued in sin til their probation closed will not have thier sins blotted out, but instead will have theif names blotted out of the "Lamb's Book of Life."

Those who are found to be true Christians will have their sins blotted out, never more to be seen. Thus day by day the work in the the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary moves forward until all cases are decided. Thus the sanctuary will soon be cleasned from the record of all sins. When this is done, Jesus will leave the heavenly sanctuary and no more sins will ever be forgiven. All cases will have been decided.

To teach about judgment, 1844, and the gospel and never bring out the fact that our characters must compare with the law of God is to allow the false gospel that allows one to believe they will be saved while sinning to move ever deeper in the minds of many in the church. We must teach the truth in harmony with the gospel and the light God has been so gracious to shine upon our paths.

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on November 19, 2006, 09:44:00 PM
The article posted at TROs homepage is too important to not post here in this topic. It follows:

"I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened." Daniel 7:9,10.

Thus was presented to the prophet's vision the great and solemn day when the characters and the lives of men should pass in review before the Judge of all the earth, and to every man should be rendered "according to his works." The Ancient of Days is God the Father. Says the psalmist: "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever Thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, Thou art God." Psalm 90:2. It is He, the source of all being, and the fountain of all law, that is to preside in the judgment. And holy angels as ministers and witnesses, in number "ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands," attend this great tribunal.

"And, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him. And there was given Him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve Him: His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away." Daniel 7:13, 14. The coming of Christ here described is not His second coming to the earth. He comes to the Ancient of Days in heaven to receive dominion and glory and a kingdom, which will be given Him at the close of His work as a mediator. It is this coming, and not His second advent to the earth, that was foretold in prophecy to take place at the termination of the 2300 days in 1844. Attended by heavenly angels, our great High Priest enters the holy of holies and there appears in the presence of God to engage in the last acts of His ministration in behalf of man--to perform the work of investigative judgment and to make an atonement for all who are shown to be entitled to its benefits.

In the typical service only those who had come before God with confession and repentance, and whose sins, through the blood of the sin offering, were transferred to the sanctuary, had a part in the service of the Day of Atonement. So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work, and takes place at a later period. "Judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel?" 1 Peter 4:17.

The books of record in heaven, in which the names and the deeds of men are registered, are to determine the decisions of the judgment. Says the prophet Daniel: "The judgment was set, and the books were opened." The revelator, describing the same scene, adds: "Another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Revelation 20:12.

The book of life contains the names of all who have ever entered the service of God. Jesus bade His disciples: "Rejoice, because your names are written in heaven." Luke 10:20. Paul speaks of his faithful fellow workers, "whose names are in the book of life." Philippians 4:3. Daniel, looking down to "a time of trouble, such as never was," declares that God's people shall be delivered, "everyone that shall be found written in the book." And the revelator says that those only shall enter the city of God whose names "are written in the Lamb's book of life." Daniel 12:1; Revelation 21:27.

"A book of remembrance" is written before God, in which are recorded the good deeds of "them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon His name." Malachi 3:16. Their words of faith, their acts of love, are registered in heaven. Nehemiah refers to this when he says: "Remember me, O my God, . . . and wipe not out my good deeds that I have done for the house of my God." Nehemiah 13:14. In the book of God's remembrance every deed of righteousness is immortalized. There every temptation resisted, every evil overcome, every word of tender pity expressed, is faithfully chronicled. And every act of sacrifice, every suffering and sorrow endured for Christ's sake, is recorded. Says the psalmist: "Thou tellest my wanderings: put Thou my tears into Thy bottle: are they not in Thy book?" Psalm 56:8.

There is a record also of the sins of men. "For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." Says the Saviour: "By thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Ecclesiastes 12:14; Matthew 12:36, 37. The secret purposes and motives appear in the unerring register; for God "will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts." I Corinthians 4:5. "Behold, it is written before Me, . . . your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the Lord." Isaiah 65:6, 7.

Every man's work passes in review before God and is registered for faithfulness or unfaithfulness. Opposite each name in the books of heaven is entered with terrible exactness every wrong word, every selfish act, every unfulfilled duty, and every secret sin, with every artful dissembling. Heaven-sent warnings or reproofs neglected, wasted moments, unimproved opportunities, the influence exerted for good or for evil, with its far-reaching results, all are chronicled by the recording angel.

The law of God is the standard by which the characters and the lives of men will be tested in the judgment. Says the wise man: "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment." Ecclesiastes 12:13, 14. The apostle James admonishes his brethren: "So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty." James 2:12

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on November 19, 2006, 09:48:00 PM
I would like to ask our readers if you have read or heard this in church during last quarter's Sabbath School lesson when we studied this subject. If not why not?  Is this hard to follow? If so, I am pleased to say that I did not write it. It is inspired counsel and it is not taken out of context.

Why is this article so important? Because it contradicts a lot of what is being taught in the church about salvation. Here is the truth. Do you want it, or will you reject it?

"Every man's work passes in review before God and is registered for faithfulness or unfaithfulness. Opposite each name in the books of heaven is entered with terrible exactness every wrong word, every selfish act, every unfulfilled duty, and every secret sin, with every artful dissembling. Heaven-sent warnings or reproofs neglected, wasted moments, unimproved opportunities, the influence exerted for good or for evil, with its far-reaching results, all are chronicled by the recording angel.

The law of God is the standard by which the characters and the lives of men will be tested in the judgment. Says the wise man: 'Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment.' Ecclesiastes 12:13, 14. The apostle James admonishes his brethren: 'So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.' James 2:12"

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Liane H on November 20, 2006, 08:15:00 AM
There are some that would say that these words are fearful. That they make us afraid of God and that it puts fear in us and causes us to be insecure in our salvation.

Another thought and a question.

Is God perfect?

If He is perfect then we have nothing to fear. For a perfect God cannot make a mistake in the judgment, but will perfect in His dealings with the just and the unjust.

It all boils down to trust. Do we trust God?

If we know He is perfect we will trust Him in all the dealings of our lives and those around us. The Sanctuary is the very center of the character of God and when we study it we will understand the standard that God uses in mercy and justice in his dealing with His creatures.

Let us be thankful that we have been blessed with so much wisdom from the Lord and that we have a responsibility to bring this to the church and teach the people the way of the Lord. I found this in the book of Hebrews that speaks of the Sanctuary, the High Presthood and the judgment:

5:12   For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.  

Have we forgotten the ways of the Lord? Do we still need the milk that was first taught to us? I wonder, do you?

 

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on November 20, 2006, 08:50:00 AM
One would have to know what the "milk" is and then the concern over the false teaching on the Investigative Judgment would be seen to be important and warranted.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on November 21, 2006, 09:04:00 AM

Wherever the word of God has been faithfully preached, results have followed that attested its divine origin. The Spirit of God accompanied the message of His servants, and the word was with power. Sinners felt their consciences quickened. The "light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world" illumined the secret chambers of their souls, and the hidden things of darkness were made manifest. Deep conviction took hold upon their minds and hearts. They were convinced of sin and of righteousness and of judgment to come. They had a sense of the righteousness of Jehovah and felt the terror of appearing, in their guilt and uncleanness, before the Searcher of hearts. In anguish they cried out: "Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" As the cross of Calvary, with its infinite sacrifice for the sins of men, was revealed, they saw that nothing but the merits of Christ could suffice to atone for their transgressions; this alone could reconcile man to God. With faith and humility they accepted the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world. Through the blood of Jesus they had "remission of sins that are past."

Notice that the blood of Jesus only covers sins that are past. Many believe the blood of Jesus covers present and future sins that are  not confessed and foresaken. But, here they have believed a lie and if not corrected will lose heaven.

The investigative judgment correctly understood corrects the great lie that a man is saved in his sin. Sins that are not foresaken will reveal that there is a separation between man and God and in the judgment there will be no Saviour's blood to cover these sins. Frightful thing to consider! Today is the day of salvation!

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Cop on November 23, 2006, 01:25:00 AM
Notice that the blood of Jesus only covers sins that are past. Many believe the blood of Jesus covers present and future sins that are not confessed and foresaken.

Gasp!! You mean God expects me to search my heart for hidden sin, and confess each separately? You mean a 'generic' (one time for all) confession is not enough to satisfy Him? You mean He demands that I put sin out of my life completely? You mean He is a God of absolutes (no grey areas). ::)

"But, here they have believed a lie and if not corrected will lose heaven."
;)But this isn't the Christianity that millions know and love. This is being judgmental, un-loving, un-Christian, even fanatical! Who are you to judge others?

As untold numbers say and desperately believe..."Your God may be like this, but my god is a loving, forgiving god that understands and has unconditional love for sinners".

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Liane H on November 23, 2006, 04:31:00 AM
One of the most beautiful thing I learned when I joined this church which has been a question I ask myself many times.

How high can I reach to God?

All to often many desire to stand still or just do as much as they are able, not desiring to go beyond the standard of the milk or see beyond the experience they want to have. It is just to much work to do more.

When we get beyond the milk we find a whole new world of the meat that God desires for us to know. I am reminded many times of the words in Hosea where God says that His People are dying because of a lack of knowledge.

If His People are dying how much more the other denominations are dying for lack of knowledge to follow God.

Can we die and be saved in our sins? The Sanctuary Message and the Investigative Judgment tells this is not possible. Maybe that is why so many have tried to destroy this message and reject it because it means it requires much more from us than so many are willing to give.

Yet it is so easy to be saved and hard to be lost. When we think upon the death of Jesus on the Cross and why it was done we would really desire to be like Him in all ways.

What a gift!

------------------
Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

[This message has been edited by Liane H (edited 11-23-2006).]

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on November 23, 2006, 02:07:00 PM
What is our path to heaven? Is it a road with every inviting convenience? No, it is a path that is narrow and apparently inconvenient; it is a path of conflict, of trial, of tribulation and suffering. Our Captain, Jesus Christ, has hid nothing from us in regard to the battles we are to fight. He opens the map before us and shows us the way. "Strive," He says, "to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able" (Luke 13:24). "Wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat" (Matt. 7:13).

Here is a statement from the Great Controversy that puts the lie of Satan to rest (for those who can see).

"Unless the church will follow on in His opening providence, accepting every ray of light, performing every duty which may be revealed, religion will inevitably degenerate into the observance of forms, and the spirit of vital godliness will disappear. This truth has been repeatedly illustrated in the history of the church. God requires of His people works of faith and obedience corresponding to the blessings and privileges bestowed. Obedience requires a sacrifice and involves a cross; and this is why so many of the professed followers of Christ refused to receive the light from heaven, and, like the Jews of old, knew not the time of their visitation. Luke 19:44. Because of their pride and unbelief the Lord passed them by and revealed His truth to those who, like the shepherds of Bethlehem and the Eastern Magi, had given heed to all the light they had received." Thus it is today. Those who believe themselves to be "rich and increased with goods", if not careful will find that another has taken their place. God is not dependent upon us anymore than He was dependent upon Caiaphas.

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Dora on November 26, 2006, 08:46:00 AM
God wants to save us from our sins, not in our sins.  I have been in places where I had nothing in common with anyone there; I was uncomfortable, and left as soon as possible.  God IS a "God of Love" that He will not force someone into Heaven who will not be happy there.  

Can we imagine anyone who has done nothing but pleased themselves all their lives on earth being happy in a Heaven where everyone is thinking of others first?  The kind of things we enjoy here on earth we will enjoy in Heaven.  The things we think we "cannot do without" here we would not want to do without in Heaven.

Imagine this scene...In Heaven or the New Earth, we come in from working in our gardens, or whatever we are doing...we want to sit down, relax, and watch some TV, with maybe a beer, (o, only one! or a coke) to "satisfy our thirst."  Then, we want to eat, but we cannot be satisfied with Heavenly food, for we have been accustomed to meat, or at least not to simple fare. We cannot go out to eat, there is no place to go....and I could go on, but you do understand the picture.

I believe this period of time we are going through during the Investigative Judgment, is also a cleansing process which we, as God's people are to be taking part in.

The temple of God is not to be defiled, and as there is now no temple "building" here on earth, we are told that we are that temple. 1 Cor.3:16, 6:19.  We are told in 1Cor.3:17,
"If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."  This includes everything about us, what we put into our bodies and minds, for even our thoughts can defile us, and there is nothing on the "regular TV fare" that will not defile our minds.  That also includes the books we read, for we think about what we dwell on.  And Prov. 23:7 says, "As he thinketh in his heart, so is he."

There is nothing negative in what God wants for us!! He does not want to deprive us of anything that is good. He is longing for us to be prepared to enjoy the wonderful things He has prepared for us, yet He cannot allow us to be where we are discontented.  If we do not love the things of God here on earth, we would not love them in Heaven. This is the cleansing process we are going through, "And He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and He shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge tham as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness."

That offering God desires seems to be in Romans 12:1, "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

In His Love

------------------
Dora

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Liane H on November 26, 2006, 10:19:00 AM
Hi Sister Dora:

Amen!

So many are not prepared to meet their God. So much needs to be done and so few know the precious Words that will give them eternal life.

Obedience to His Will is the important aspects and Love is the foundation that causes one to desire to obey.

There are only two paths in this world. One to eternal death and the other to eternal life, sad but true there is no middle road and we need to remind ourselves of this fact and what will give us the opportunity to see the coming of Jesus in the clouds.

Thanks so much for sharing your love of the truth and reminding us of where we sould be in our relationship with God.

------------------
Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Cop on November 27, 2006, 07:17:00 PM
Multitudes live for the present, with no thought or care for the future. Like Esau they cry, "Let us eat and drink; for tomorrow we die." 1 Corinthians 15:32. They are controlled by inclination; and rather than practice self-denial, they will forgo the most valuable considerations. If one must be relinquished, the gratification of a depraved appetite or the heavenly blessings promised only to the self-denying and God-fearing, the claims of appetite prevail, and God and heaven are virtually despised. How many, even of professed Christians, cling to indulgences that are injurious to health and that benumb the sensibilities of the soul. When the duty is presented of cleansing themselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God, they are offended. They see that they cannot retain these hurtful gratifications and yet secure heaven, and they conclude that since the way to eternal life is so strait, they will no longer walk therein.

Multitudes are selling their birthright for sensual indulgence. Health is sacrificed, the mental faculties are enfeebled, and heaven is forfeited; and all for a mere temporary pleasure--an indulgence at once both weakening and debasing in its character. As Esau awoke to see the folly of his rash exchange when it was too late to recover his loss, so it will be in the day of God with those who have bartered their heirship to heaven for selfish gratifications. {PP 182}

[This message has been edited by Cop (edited 11-27-2006).]

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Liane H on November 28, 2006, 06:35:00 AM
It reminds me that we must always look to Jesus for everything in our lives. People are not a good indicator where we should be.

He is our perfect example and how the Father and the Son set up the Investigative Judgment, if understood should be like the law, being our guideposts to where we should be in our relationship with our God.

God has blessed us with so many signs to help us know where we are in relation to the plan of salvation and the work of redemption as well as the work of witnessing.

What will be on our books of the souls that were lost because we did not do what was given to us to do?

I fear to look.

There are so many ways one can help in the work of witnessing that all should have directly or indirectly been able to at least bring one soul to Christ and eternal life.

------------------
Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on December 03, 2006, 08:40:00 AM
 
quote:
Originally posted by Cop:
Multitudes live for the present, with no thought or care for the future. Like Esau they cry, "Let us eat and drink; for tomorrow we die." 1 Corinthians 15:32. They are controlled by inclination; and rather than practice self-denial, they will forgo the most valuable considerations. If one must be relinquished, the gratification of a depraved appetite or the heavenly blessings promised only to the self-denying and God-fearing, the claims of appetite prevail, and God and heaven are virtually despised. How many, even of professed Christians, cling to indulgences that are injurious to health and that benumb the sensibilities of the soul. When the duty is presented of cleansing themselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God, they are offended. They see that they cannot retain these hurtful gratifications and yet secure heaven, and they conclude that since the way to eternal life is so strait, they will no longer walk therein.

Multitudes are selling their birthright for sensual indulgence. Health is sacrificed, the mental faculties are enfeebled, and heaven is forfeited; and all for a mere temporary pleasure--an indulgence at once both weakening and debasing in its character. As Esau awoke to see the folly of his rash exchange when it was too late to recover his loss, so it will be in the day of God with those who have bartered their heirship to heaven for selfish gratifications. {PP 182}

[This message has been edited by Cop (edited 11-27-2006).]



God loves us. He wants us to be healthy and thus the reason for the health message we have been given. And not only for us, but for the world!

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on December 04, 2006, 10:51:00 AM
So.....if we reject light that God sends, if we live for self gratification, then what will be seen in thr IJ? Will the blood of cover our sins? Will Jesus stand in my place because my character was not changed?
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Liane H on December 14, 2006, 07:37:00 AM
The Investigative Judgment is the most powerful and gift from God of all doctrines given to us.

Like the Sabbath, the Investigative Judgment flows throughout the whole Bible as a constant theme throughout of God's mercy and love.

We have been given as a demonination the behind the scenes of Heavenly things and the character of God opened before us.

The Investigative Judgment truth helps give us a better understanding of the workings of God and the plan of salvation. When we look at the Holy of Holies we see Jesus our High Priest ever at work for our salvation preparing His people for His coming.

Will come back

------------------
Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

[This message has been edited by Liane H (edited 12-14-2006).]

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Liane H on December 14, 2006, 09:09:00 AM
Revelation:

14:7   Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.  

What does it mean an “hour?” According to the Strong’s Concordance it has several meanings in different situation, but what does in mean in this verse? Let us look at the words given: It can mean either literal or figuratively as day, hour, instant, season and a short time.

In this verse we could use many of these different words. So since that is possible we need to read other verses from the Bible and see how we can apply this verse to the different terms given.

Before we go there, we need to see when does this verse apply. Are we talking about the past, the present or the future or a combination?  From what I have learned since being a Seventh-day Adventist it is present and future that this verse applies. If that is the case, then we can remove day, hour and instant. We still can apply season and/or a short time as well as both.

Let us read the whole of Chapter 14:

14:1   And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.  
14:2   And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:  
14:3   And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.  
14:4   These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.  
14:5   And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.  
14:6   And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,  
14:7   Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.  
14:8   And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.  
14:9   And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,  
14:10   The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:  
14:11   And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.  
14:12   Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.  
14:13   And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.  
14:14   And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.  
14:15   And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.  
14:16   And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.  
14:17   And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.  
14:18   And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.  
14:19   And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.  
14:20   And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.  

There is no question in my mind that these verses are talking about the present and the future. But when did that present begin? Could we say that the period from 1844 to the end of days could be past, present and future?  With the two words left season and short time we have to think a period of time and so with season and short time we can still see the period of the Day of Atonement from 1844 as a season or short time.  We are indeed in a season of the Day of Atonement. It labors on longer than a short time so we have to accept that the word “season” is what can be applied here.

What was the Day of Atonement?  All we have to do like with the Sabbath is go back to the Old Testament of Scripture. Before we go there what does the first verse in this chapter speak of?

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion.

Going back to the Strong’s Concordance it is literal a hill in Jerusalem or figuratively the church militant or triumphant.  My friend believes, who is not a SDA, that the 144,000 are in heaven, but are they? Where are they?

Is Jesus standing with us in the Church while she goes through the period of the church militant and will become the church triumphant?  

Now I have not compared any of this with the Spirit of Prophecy yet. What are your thoughts and views?
 

------------------
Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Liane H on December 14, 2006, 09:19:00 AM
Brother Richard shared this in a previous post and I want to comment upon it: "So.....if we reject light that God sends, if we live for self gratification, then what will be seen in the IJ? Will the blood of Jesus cover our sins? Will Jesus stand in my place because my character was not changed?"

The Bible says clearly that Jesus came to save us "from" our sins, not while we are "in" our sins.

Again is Jesus lying to us when he says to the Laodicean church "Those that OVERCOME will sit next to me."

Overcome from what? Our Sins. Just as Jesus overcome the wicked one we can also in His power overcome the wicked one and not sin. It is so simple, but hard to believe and I wonder why? Is it because we have lived in sin for so long that we cannot believe in the power that God can give us the ability to overcome? Then God is a liar and cannot be trusted and we all should walk away from the church because there is no truth in her. God forbid! Straight and narrow is the way to life, but wide is the way to death. Death comes from sinning, life comes from obedience. We have much to learn and knowledge has been increased, but so many are not listening to it. As Hosea says they perish for lack of knowledge. What a sad state for the church. ------------------

Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on September 14, 2008, 11:41:16 AM
The judgment makes clear the gospel truth. Sadly, there are those who profess holiness, who declare that they are wholly the Lord's, who claim a right to the promises of God, while refusing to render obedience to His commandments. These transgressors of the law claim everything that is promised to the children of God; but this is presumption on their part, for John tells us that true love for God will be revealed in obedience to all His commandments. It is not enough to believe the theory of truth, to make a profession of faith in Christ, to believe that Jesus is no impostor, and that the religion of the Bible is no cunningly devised fable. "He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments," John wrote, "is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him." "He that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him." 1 John 2:4, 5; 3:24.

This truth is rejected by most of Christianity.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Mimi on January 04, 2009, 11:19:52 AM
Yes, Richard.

The subject of the sanctuary and the investigative judgment should be clearly understood by the people of God. All need a knowledge for themselves of the position and work of their great High Priest. Otherwise, it will be impossible for them to exercise the faith which is essential at this time, or to occupy the position which God designs them to fill. Every individual has a soul to save or to lose. Each has a case pending at the bar of God. Each must meet the great Judge face to face. How important, then, that every mind contemplate often the solemn scene when the judgment shall sit and the books shall be opened, when, with Daniel, every individual must stand in his lot, at the end of the days. 

     All who have received the light upon these subjects are to bear testimony of the great truths which God has committed to them. The sanctuary in heaven is the very center of Christ's work in behalf of men. It concerns every soul living upon the earth. It opens to view the plan of redemption, bringing us down to the very close of time, and revealing the triumphant issue of the contest between righteousness and sin. It is of the utmost importance that all should thoroughly investigate these subjects, and be able to give an answer to every one that asketh them a reason of the hope that is in them.--The Great Controversy, pp. 488, 489. (1888)
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on May 23, 2009, 03:56:38 PM
Amen! And that is why we are here. By God's grace we have done this.  It is a narrow and steep road, but all are without excuse for not making it all the way. Our part is immeasurably small, God's part is immeasurably large. It is our effort and His power!!`
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Greg Goodchild on September 27, 2009, 12:05:53 PM
I personally am thrilled with the Investigative Judgment. It is one of the most Biblicially supported concepts in the Bible. The IJ, as described by EGW in Great Controversy 479-491, is built upon a number of Judgment scenes so that we can have a thorough supportive Bible framework for how and why the IJ is conducted.

1. The first "IJ" scene in Scripture is the judgment in heaven where Lucifer is cast out. Rev 12; Isa 14; Ezekiel 28.

2. Then we have the "IJ" in Genesis 3 where Jesus comes to investigate why Adam and Eve did not come to Him as they normally did. He asks them questions, that He already knows the answers to, and the pronounces judgment, and presents the plan of salvation in Genesis 3:15,21.

3. Then we have the 120 years of the "IJ" preparatory to the flood of Noah's time.

4. The "IJ" is conducted in the time of the Tower of Bable and God's judgments are upon the tower and the confounding of the languages.

5. Perhaps one of the most detailed examples of the IJ is that of God's judgment on Sodom. In this scene Abraham asks God the focal question that drives the IJ after 1844. He asks "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" Genesis 18:25. Abraham also intercedes for Sodom just as Jesus does for the world.

Then we have the scene of Solomon where Solomon "judges" the two harlots - symbols of God's church.

Then we have the great judgment scene of Jesus with Jerusalem when He comes and He pronounces judgment on the nation, city, and tabernacle in Mt 23:37-38.

And all of the other examples listed in this thread.  God is good and worthy of praise.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on September 27, 2009, 02:01:04 PM
Yes, Brother Greg, each of those is indeed an example of "judgment". But, the "investigative judgment" deals with eternal realities, not temporal life. Some may not understand the difference. Those who perished in the examples you gave, if they professed a belief in God will stand before God in the IJ and it will be shown if they were changed by the indwelling Spirit of God.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on December 17, 2009, 07:04:58 AM
If there was one of our doctrinal teachings that Satan hates more than another, besides the gospel, it is the investigative judgment. Why does he hate it so much?
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Wally on December 17, 2009, 03:22:06 PM
Probably because it lets us know that we are in the antitypical day of atonement, and that the end of all things is at hand.  Therefore, those who are aware of this can prepare themselves so as to be ready for His coming.  As part of the 3 angels' messages, it also guards us from the heresy of the secret rapture, and strikes at the foundation of the "once-saved-always-saved" heresy.  I think there are many reasons he hates this doctrine, and why it is the one over which so many of our people stumble.  To study this doctrine one must touch on many other relevant doctrines, and a complete picture emerges, which protects us against the many delusions of the last days.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: ian rankin on January 05, 2010, 11:41:34 AM
Hi,
I am a new contributor to this topic and have glanced over the postings to date.
I have no argument at all with the perception that the Investigative Judgement is fundamental to an understanding of last day events.
I do have a question on interpretation, re thinking of all references to end-time judgement as being the Investigative Judgement

Revelation 22:12 'Behold I come quickly and my reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.'
2 Corinthians 5:10 'For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed  for his deeds done in the body, according to what he has done , whether good or bad'.

Along with other parables, Matthew 25, the servants and talents, speaks of rewards for service.
My question is, that most people interpret Rev 22:12 and 2 Cor 5:10 as referring to eternal life, but eternal life is a gift, not a reward, it cannot be earned.

God bless,
Ian

 
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Steve Billiter on January 20, 2010, 04:08:54 PM
Hi Greg, my understanding of the Investigative Judgment as applied to Adventist theology, is that it began in 1844 as Jesus left the holy place in heaven and entered the most Holy Place to begin the final work of atonement and judgment. We then have the vision of the temple in heaven within the Most Holy opened, with the table of ten commandments and the light shining upon the 4th.

Rev 11:19  And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightning, and voices, and thunder, and an earthquake, and great hail.

   In the Revelation, John says, "The temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament." Revelation 11:19. John saw in vision the Lord's people looking for His coming and searching for truth. As the temple of God was opened unto His people, the light of the law of God, which was in the ark, shone forth. Those who receive this light are brought to view in the proclamation of the third angel's message.  {4BC 1152.4} 

 In the holiest I saw an ark; on the top and sides of it was purest gold. On each end of the ark was a lovely cherub, with its wings spread out over it. Their faces were turned toward each other, and they looked downward. Between the angels was a golden censer. Above the ark, where the angels stood, was an exceeding bright glory, that appeared like a throne where God dwelt. Jesus stood by the ark, and as the saints' prayers came up to Him, the incense in the censer would smoke, and He would offer up their prayers with the smoke of the incense to His Father. In the ark was the golden pot of manna, Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of stone which folded together like a book. Jesus opened them, and I saw the ten commandments written on them with the finger of God. On one table were four, and on the other six.

The four on the first table shone brighter than the other six. But the fourth, the Sabbath commandment, shone above them all; for the Sabbath was set apart to be kept in honor of God's holy name. The holy Sabbath looked glorious--a halo of glory was all around it. I saw that the Sabbath commandment was not nailed to the cross. If it was, the other nine commandments were; and we are at liberty to break them all, as well as to break the fourth. I saw that God had not changed the Sabbath, for He never changes. But the pope had changed it from the seventh to the first day of the week; for he was to change times and laws.  {EW 32.3} 


The Lord has shut the door to the holy place and no man can open, and opened the door to to the Most Holy and no man can shut it. sadly most of Chistiandom is still trying to open the door to the holy place where the ark and the ten commandments are not in.

Rev 3:7  And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things said he that is holy, he that is true, he that has the key of David, he that opens, and no man shuts; and shuts, and no man opens;

Isa 22:22  And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

 Here we can see a beautiful connection in the Bible and EGW for the vision of th open and shut door, which reveals the sanctuary doctrine and the investigative judgment.


The Open and the Shut Door


     Sabbath, March 24, 1849, we had a sweet and very interesting meeting with the brethren at Topsham, Maine. The Holy Ghost was poured out upon us, and I was taken off in the Spirit to the city of the living God. Then I was shown that the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ relating to the shut door could not be separated, and that the time for the commandments of God to shine out with all their importance, and for God's people to be tried on the Sabbath truth, was when the door was opened in the most holy place in the heavenly sanctuary, where the ark is, in which are contained the ten commandments. This door was not opened until the mediation of Jesus was finished in the holy place of the sanctuary in 1844. Then Jesus rose up and shut the door of the holy place, and opened the door into the most holy, and passed within the second veil, where He now stands by the ark, and where the faith of Israel now reaches.  {EW 42.1}

     I saw that Jesus had shut the door of the holy place, and no man can open it; and that He had opened the door into the most holy, and no man can shut it (Revelation 3:7,8); [SEE PAGE 86. SEE ALSO APPENDIX.] and that since Jesus has opened the door into the most holy place, which contains the ark, the commandments have been shining out to God's people, and they are being tested on the Sabbath question.  {EW 42.2}

     I saw that the present test on the Sabbath could not come until the mediation of Jesus in the holy place was finished and He had passed within the second veil; therefore Christians who fell asleep before the door was opened into the most holy, when the midnight cry was finished, at the seventh month, 1844, and who had not kept the true Sabbath, now rest in hope; for they had not the light and the test on the Sabbath which we now have since that door was opened. I saw that Satan was tempting some of God's people on this point. Because so many good Christians have fallen asleep in the triumphs of faith and have not kept the true Sabbath, they were doubting about its being a test for us now.  {EW 42.3}
 
     The enemies of the present truth have been trying to open the door of the holy place, that Jesus has shut, and to close the door of the most holy place, which He opened in 1844, where the ark is, containing the two tables of stone on which are written the ten commandments by the finger of Jehovah.  {EW 43.1} 

     Satan is now using every device in this sealing time to keep the minds of God's people from the present truth and to cause them to waver. I saw a covering that God was drawing over His people to protect them in the time of trouble; and every soul that was decided on the truth and was pure in heart was to be covered with the covering of the Almighty.  {EW 43.2} 







Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on January 20, 2010, 07:06:49 PM
Welcome to our discussion, Brother Steve! Share with us what you think happens in the investigative judgment. What is being judged?
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Steve Billiter on January 23, 2010, 05:33:12 AM
. What is being judged?
[/quote]

There is no other standard of judgment save the ten commandments.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on January 23, 2010, 05:54:26 AM
Amen!! The reason I ask is that many have been deceived, but you do not appear to be. Satan has turned Bible truth into a lie for many. The law is the indeed the standard of judgment. What is being judged. What is the law compared to. You would be surprised to find out that there are many who will answer wrong. Many.  Have a blessed Sabbath, dear brother!
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Steve Billiter on January 23, 2010, 10:33:55 AM
Thanks Richard, we know its all about the faith of Jesus and the ten commandments. I've found a great many to be out of balance. In Adventism, its not so much legalism any longer, but fluff, cheap grace which is no grace. Repentance is kept out of sight and lip service only is given to the commandments while at the same time they are trampled upon.

Modern Spiritualism is being taught in many Adventist churches today.

    It is true that Spiritualism is now changing its form, and, veiling some of its more objectionable features, is assuming a Christian guise. But its utterances from the platform and the press have been before the public for nearly forty years, and in these its real character stands revealed. These teachings cannot be denied or hidden.  {GC88 558.1}

 
     Even in its present form, so far from being more worthy of toleration than formerly, it is really a more dangerous, because a more subtle deception. While it formerly denounced Christ and the Bible, it now professes to accept both. But the Bible is interpreted in a manner that is pleasing to the unrenewed heart, while its solemn and vital truths are made of no effect. Love is dwelt upon as the chief attribute of God, but it is degraded to a weak sentimentalism making little distinction between good and evil. God's justice, his denunciations of sin, the requirements of his holy law, are all kept out of sight. The people are taught to regard the decalogue as a dead letter. Pleasing, bewitching fables captivate the senses, and lead men to reject the Bible as the foundation of their faith. Christ is as verily denied as before; but Satan has so blinded the eyes of the people that the deception is not discerned.  {GC88 558.2}
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on January 23, 2010, 04:28:31 PM
You quoted, "the Bible is interpreted in a manner that is pleasing to the unrenewed heart.."  Yes, and the investigative judgment removes these lies. The character of man is compared to the law of God. Not only his deeds, but his words. Not only these, but also his thoughts.  If that is not straight enough for our legalistic friends, then let us present the truth. Our motives are written in the Books of Heaven and they will be compared to the law of God. Yes, man will be judged. God already knows the heart, but the universe will see that God is merciful and just. That man would come to understand this is His character, then there would be a falling down at the foot of the cross in shame and joy!~  Shame because we will see our sins for what they are and know we deserve death. And joy that Christ has changed us so that our lives will glorify Him!!  We correctly understand true "assurance of salvation", not the lie that is spread throughout Christendom that keeps souls in the bondage of sin while believing they are "saved".
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Steve Billiter on January 23, 2010, 08:01:45 PM
Right Richard, the investigative judgment does all that and more. It reveals the character of God as the ten commandments are in the ark in heaven. And Jesus is in the Most Holy completing the work of atonement and cleansing the sanctuary of sin, the faith of Jesus is also revealed as the light shines upon the cross as well. Christ has opened a door that no man can shut until probation is over and He leaves the Most Holy to don the garments of vengeance and rescue His people.

Rev 22:11  He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Rev 22:12  And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
 
Rev 22:20  He which testifies these things said, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.


Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Donna H on February 15, 2010, 10:37:26 AM
Whew! That was a lot of reading to catch up.

I have questions:

1. How does the IJ work with people who have mental illness, say schizophrenia, where much of the time they are not able to control their actions but can be aware of their sin? And what about people with limited intellectual abilities who can not fully understand the requirements, or apply them to their own lives?

2. Weren't sacrifices required for sins that came into one's awareness only? And weren't they supposed to offer sacrifice daily because they surely have sinned, even if they were not made aware of their sin? Is it really necessary to be aware of every sin we commit?

3. Regarding the mostly righteous man who dies in sin, or before he has repented - If David had died before his sin was shown to him, would he still be called a man of God?

David was in need of conviction of His sin. Some have told me that he was not aware what he had done. But I find it very hard to believe that David did not know that he was sinning. Can there be any man today who does not know that adultry and murder are wrong? David was a strong and faithful man. I find it really hard to believe that he would not have known he was doing something wrong. He did after all, plot murder to cover his crime. So I wonder, maybe the point is that David had fallen out of his relationship with God for a time, which makes sense because that is when we all sin. When the light bulb went off for David, he exclaimed "I have sinned against God". Maybe he forgot about God, and that relationship wasn't paramount in his heart and mind.

4. So when we repent, what is it we are repenting? Is it the specific sin, or is it the fact that we have fallen away from God?  Isn't it pointless to confess every individual sin without returning to God? It's when we return to God that our sins are forgiven. There is absolutely no comfort in confessing our sins. It's our return that gives us rest.

Maybe it's because I am new to my relationship with God, but this thread seems to offer very little hope, and very little rest. It seems to be full of the wrong kind of fear. I accept the Investigative Judgment. When I first heard of it, I didn't even question it because I know that it is supported in Scripture. I have read that scripture. However, Christ's yoke is light, and His burden is easy. With the process of sanctification, and the promise that what He has begun in us will be completed, the fact that we are not able to save ourselves, and that He will not abandon us, the IJ is all about rejoicing, and not worrying about making ourselves perfect. It is being done in us. Isn't our focus supposed to be on faith based works, for "love covers a multitude of sins', and reaching out to our brothers and sisters, and expressing the love God has shown us?  I'm not denying the importanct or beauty of the Law, but they seem to be better understood as promises that God WILL complete in us, rather than our daily focus.

I know I'm a sinner. There is no hope for me apart from Christ. But if I'm constantly focused on my sin, which just gets more and more clear to me, how is it that my eyes are on Christ?

Please forgive my novice-ness  ::) and thanks for the chance to work it out.

dchena
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Steve Billiter on February 15, 2010, 11:56:03 AM
Hi Donna,

Most mental illness I believe is the result of demons, so the person has done something to invite their presence such as drugs, alcohol, involvement in the occult and witchcraft. Then other sins compound the problem as well. Usually there is a rejection of Jesus as Saviour somewhere along the way.I do not believe God will excuse their sin because their minds have become unresponsive. In the case of someone born with cognitive retardation, that may be a different matter. God is well able to judge righteously.

Some sins are more intentional than others, some are done in ignorance. The OT sanctuary service allowed for the forgiveness of all of them. (M.L. Andreasen, The Sanctuary Service, is an excellent book on the subject)

We may need to ask the Lord to show us the sin we are unaware of.

Act 17:30  And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

3. That's a tough question. If you mean the sin with Bathsheba, David was well aware of the commandments and there was no excuse.

Sin separates us from God.

It seems God used Nathan to tell David he needed to repent. Had not David repented of his sin, he could not have been forgiven and his eternal life would have been in jeopardy. David's repentance in recorded in Psalm 51.

2Sa 12:7  And Nathan said to David, You are the man. Thus said the LORD God of Israel, I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you out of the hand of Saul;

2Sa 12:8  And I gave you your master's house, and your master's wives into your bosom, and gave you the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given to you such and such things.

2Sa 12:9  Why have you despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? you have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and have taken his wife to be your wife, and have slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.


Isa 59:2  But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

 4. Reconciliation with God involves confession and repentance of sin. We do come to Christ first:

Mat 11:28  Come to me, all you that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Mat 11:29  Take my yoke on you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and you shall find rest to your souls.

Mat 11:30  For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

We are to confess specific sins as far as we can remember.

Act 2:38  Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

We must confess our sins and turn away from them. then we are born again, its not that we can avoid our sin, we must deal with it as God says to do.

Eze 33:11  Say to them, As I live, said the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn you, turn you from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel?

Pro 28:13  He that covers his sins shall not prosper: but whoever confesses and forsakes them shall have mercy.

Once Jesus has forgiven our sins, we can forget about them, the guilt is removed. Yes, we do works of faith not works of the law.

When we sin again, we have an advocate.

1Jn 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jn 2:1  My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Works of the law is salvation by works, which is a false gospel.

Rom 2:13  (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Jas 2:23  And the scripture was fulfilled which says, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Heb 11:8  By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing where he went.

 In other words, Abraham by faith obeyed God.

We can have confidence in the investigative judgment, as we confess and forsake our sins, Jesus cleanses us.

We do not sit back and let God accomplish everything, we have a work to do in cooperation with God.

Php 2:12  Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

This is not legalism, salvation is still a free gift.

Eph 2:8  For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 I highly recommend the book, Steps to Christ, by Ellen White, and ongoing Bible studies along with lots of other EGW.

Donna I'm happy you have decided to commit to Jesus. May he continue to bless you as you seek Him!

God Bless! Steve







 
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on February 15, 2010, 12:36:15 PM

2. Weren't sacrifices required for sins that came into one's awareness only? And weren't they supposed to offer sacrifice daily because they surely have sinned, even if they were not made aware of their sin? Is it really necessary to be aware of every sin we commit?

Sacrifices were made for both known and unknown sins. Is it necessary to be aware of every sin? No. It is not. Today many break the fourth commandment and God does not bring the light to them or hold them accountable. Most who die today and love Jesus supremely, do not keep the fourth commandment. Soon that will not be the case. As the end comes, the last test will be on the fourth commandment. The light will shine upon the Sabbath commandment.

Quote
3. Regarding the mostly righteous man who dies in sin, or before he has repented - If David had died before his sin was shown to him, would he still be called a man of God?

That is a good question and it is made more difficult by false teachings. The Bible is clear on the matter. The wages of sin is death. To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin. God looks upon the heart. That is what will be judged. In the investigative judgment, the words, deeds, thoughts, and motives are recorded as evidence of where the heart was at death. Your concern is that when a man dies who was righteous, but sinned and did not repent before he died what will happen. The Bible tells us that when a man turns from his righteousness and sins, God will not remember his righteousness. Something seems amis, for all could make a mistake, or do as Moses did and sin at the end of life. Why wouldn't God make an allowance for what could have happened if the man had been given more time?

That is a very dangerous idea that many have come up with. That a man could sin and retain eternal life is a very popular teaching in Christian churches. Let me give you the answer as I have seen it. The devil is very good at creating such arguments that undo the gospel truth in the minds of many. In this case what he has done is create a situation wherein there are two possibilities, neither are correct. First, the holy man sins and then dies without repentance and is allowed into heaven. The second is just as bad, the holy man sins one time in 40 years, dies without repentance one moment after the sin and is refused entrance into heaven. Only the devil would present such lies. We know God and we know He is fair. We know His Word is true. So, neither of these accounts is true. Why do so many in the church go for his lie?

Could there be a third possibility? Maybe Satan has given an example and provided only two options when there are more. He is so clever!

When we study the Book of Job, we find that God is in absolute control of all that happens in this world. It may appear that a wind came from nowhere and destroyed Job's family, but it was not true. It did not just happen. And, it is not true that God brought the wind that killed all of Job's children and left his wife alive. No, we are told that Satan was responsible. We also see that until God allowed Satan to do this, it could not be done. The same with Job. Satan could not touch Job until God allowed him to. And then Satan could not take his life. There is granted to man a period of temporal life, a period we call probation in which time man is given an opportunity to learn of God and to choose whom he will serve. This period of probation is given to sinners as well as saints. There would be no life without the sacrifice of Christ. Because Jesus suffered and died, all humans are granted this opportunity to choose God and be reconciled to Him. By faith we believe this. Some will begin to give examples of how a man could die before he repents, but that only indicates a lack of faith in Him who holds all in His hands. Each heartbeat is under the control of God. It is His love for us that keeps us alive moment by moment. He is actively involved in our lives. Sadly, few believe this.

For you, dear sister, God is well pleased as you search out His word to see what is truth and what is not. You will learn in months what it has taken others many years to learn. Seek and ye shall find! As we learn of Him, our love grows stronger and we become more steadfast in our commitment to Him.

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on February 15, 2010, 01:12:56 PM
4. So when we repent, what is it we are repenting? Is it the specific sin, or is it the fact that we have fallen away from God?  Isn't it pointless to confess every individual sin without returning to God? It's when we return to God that our sins are forgiven. There is absolutely no comfort in confessing our sins. It's our return that gives us rest.

God is giving you very good discernment!!  There is no sin unless we are separated from Christ. So, when we sin, we are to understand that it is a revelation of separation. We can be sorry for our sin, we can confess our sin, but there will be no repentance until we are reconciled to God. When we see our sins and confess them and plead with God to save us, to reveal Himself to us, to give us His Spirit, what shall He do? Give us a stone? NO! He is calling the sinner back to Himself. It is His drawing and His Spirit that we are responding to when we have sinned.  When we repent, we repent of the specific sin, but more than that, we are to understand that we have hurt our Jesus when we sinned. We are to understand that we have separated from Him. We are to understand that our sin has misrepresented God to others.

You are so right, there is no peace in confession of sin. Peace comes from being reconciled to God. The law is the school-master that leads us back to Christ. In Christ the soul finds rest.

Quote
Maybe it's because I am new to my relationship with God, but this thread seems to offer very little hope, and very little rest. It seems to be full of the wrong kind of fear. I accept the Investigative Judgment. When I first heard of it, I didn't even question it because I know that it is supported in Scripture. I have read that scripture.

There is a reason why. It may not be a very good one. We will attempt to rectify the situation so that all can be encouraged. The reason why this subject offers little hope is that most will fail of attaining eternal life. The road is narrow and steep and few will enter in. It is not because it is not possible, but that so few will submit to Christ. This can be discouraging, but it ought not be. Why? Because the God of heaven, the Creator God who made all in nature that we see, loves us!! He has proved it by sending His only Son into this dark world to let Him be subject to the weakness of humanity and to fight he battle as we must fight it at the risk of failure and eternal loss. Failure? What failure? Jesus could have failed. What eternal loss? If Jesus had failed, He would have been separated from His Father for eternity!!

Now, Jesus did not fail. He gave us an example that shows we can do it. It is God's love that saves us. How can we not be encouraged when we understand all that was given for our salvation!! When you read in many of the forums and topics you will read of this great love. It needs to be included in this topic also and you have given us cause to do that just  now!! Thank you. In the judgment we see our Advocate Jesus defending us, those who have given Him their hearts. No matter how bad we were, no matter how long we were evil, He stands there with His hands held high, pointing to the scars as evidence of His sacrifice for us who have died to self and trusted Him with the whole heart. We ought to be encouraged by this great revelation of His faithfulness to us as He argues in our favor who are so undeserving!

But, before we can be encouraged we need to see we are sick and in need of a Saviour. You come into this battle in the churches not seeing all that the enemy has done. You do not see the well laid plans and the multitude of deceptions brought into the churches. You, my dearest sister, are blessed to be able to skirt those lies, to not have the seed of error planted in your mind. Sadly, the investigative judgment is not believed by most in Christian churches. At this point, you have no idea how the doctrine has been mutilated. It is a doctrine that when understood as you see it, will keep the soul from believing the great lie that has come into Christian churches. That a man can be saved in his sin. You see this is not so. Now, having believed this truth, you also understand that God has provided a remedy to this fatal condition all men inherit. The remedy is a very expensive One. It was very painful, very risky, and reveals just how valuable you are to God. The devil has done all in his power to block the truth of the power of grace to transform the life. If he can keep sinners from understanding their true condition when separated from God, then they will not seek out the Physician. One who does not see their disease, does not understand they are sick, will not seek a physician.

The truth of the matter is just what you see in this topic. The road if very steep and very narrow. Only those who have given their hearts fully to Christ will see heaven. But, we all may enter in if we will allow Christ to enter into our hearts. He is working toward that end. He is a living High Priest!! He is calling and working for our salvation. If He be for us, who can be against us!!!
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Wally on February 15, 2010, 01:44:22 PM
Hi Donna,

Most mental illness I believe is the result of demons, so the person has done something to invite their presence such as drugs, alcohol, involvement in the occult and witchcraft. Then other sins compound the problem as well. Usually there is a rejection of Jesus as Saviour somewhere along the way.I do not believe God will excuse their sin because their minds have become unresponsive. In the case of someone born with cognitive retardation, that may be a different matter. God is well able to judge righteously.


God Bless! Steve



 

I don't think a categorical statement like that is valid.

Try telling that to a parent whose child is born with a mental illness.  As the physical body can become sick, so can the brain.  This does not necessarily imply that demons are involved beyond their normal involvement in human affairs.  As there can be chemical imbalances in the body, so can there be in the brain.  It can't all be attributed to demons or drugs.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on February 15, 2010, 02:04:38 PM
However, Christ's yoke is light, and His burden is easy. With the process of sanctification, and the promise that what He has begun in us will be completed, the fact that we are not able to save ourselves, and that He will not abandon us, the IJ is all about rejoicing, and not worrying about making ourselves perfect. It is being done in us. Isn't our focus supposed to be on faith based works, for "love covers a multitude of sins', and reaching out to our brothers and sisters, and expressing the love God has shown us?  I'm not denying the importance or beauty of the Law, but they seem to be better understood as promises that God WILL complete in us, rather than our daily focus.

Ask one who is to go on trial if the court day is a day of rejoicing. It depends on your case. If you are guilty, know you are guilty, and have no hope, then it is a dark day!

If you have a defense attorney that knows you are guilty and has told you that he can get you off, but you have been reading the law books and see that he is not telling you everything and know that you are guilty of murder and the punishment is death, is court day a day of rejoicing?

One who is guilty, but has repented and knows that the law says repentant ones will be not only forgiven, but paid a million dollars, has a different attitude towards the day of court. On the other hand, he needs to be sure of the end result before he begins rejoicing. :)  If we know the law and we know the One who has His hands held high, then by faith we can rejoice, not in our goodness, but in the power of His grace to finish the work He has begun and to keep me by His grace until that final day! I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.  

Quote
I know I'm a sinner. There is no hope for me apart from Christ. But if I'm constantly focused on my sin, which just gets more and more clear to me, how is it that my eyes are on Christ?

Dear sister, you are not in a Laodicean condition. The law, in your case is a transcript of God's character. In Christ, you are set free from the bondage of the law. It has no power to save, only to condemn. You see your guilt. Now, you go to Jesus. You focus on Christ. Do not focus on your sin. Again, you are so right in what you are learning. When one sees they are sick, then most of the battle is won. Now, you know you have a need. We run to Christ who can give us power to resist all sin. In Christ we are given His Spirit. The fruits of His Spirit are love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance which is self-control. As long as we will abide in Him, He will be in us!! If we sin, we still have an advocate that is holding back the winds until we are sealed. We still have a time of probation in which to learn of Christ. Let us behold Jesus, and by beholding Him be changed into His image! It would be well to spend a thoughtful hour each day contemplating the life of Christ. With Jesus in the mind, we are fortified against the temptations that will come each day.

Let us take our eyes off our sins, and put them squarely on Jesus!!! That is our work!!


Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Mimi on February 15, 2010, 02:10:46 PM
Amen!
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Donna H on February 15, 2010, 02:36:47 PM


Let us take our eyes off our sins, and put them squarely on Jesus!!! That is our work!!



Now, how does this reconcile with being in a constant state of repentance?
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Donna H on February 15, 2010, 03:29:46 PM
Maybe I don't need that answered. I think God is been showing me. I so love when he answers my questions.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Mimi on February 15, 2010, 03:31:35 PM
 :) God bless you, dear Donna.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on February 15, 2010, 03:40:10 PM
Well....if I had not already typed out a reply, I would not post this. You are better off getting an answer from Jesus than from man. The Spirit is given to lead us into all truth. He is the best teacher. He does so through the Bible. See how this squares with what God has shown you, Sister Donna.

As we near the cross of Calvary there is seen love that is without a parallel. As we by faith grasp the meaning of the sacrifice, we see ourselves sinners, condemned by a broken law. This is repentance. Condemnation is not repentance. Condemnation comes from the broken law, repentance comes from Christ. We are saved by grace. What is Grace? It is Christ saying "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" as He suffers intense agony, not from physical pain, but the pain caused by His separation from His Father. Why does this bring repentance, not to be repented of? Because the separation happened on account of my sins. Yes, He loved me while I was yet a sinner. It is this love on account of my sins that breaks my cold selfish heart and leaves me sorrowing over what I have done to my Savior. This is what keeps us in that state known as conversion. Self is dead, not because of anything I did to achieve it, but because of what I did to not deserve it, and knowing that Christ loves me in spite of it and paid the ransom that I might live.

The letter of the law brings death, but the Spirit of Christ brings life that is seen in the character of the converted Christian.

Does this help, Donna? Did it get to the foundation of repentance?


Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Steve Billiter on February 15, 2010, 06:13:28 PM
Wally, did you read my post? I said some are born with mental retardation. I stand on everything I said. You don't think demons can cause chemical imbalance? Read the book of Job.

“The more time I spent with Jesus Christ, the more I found that fear, depression, anxiety and mania were ebbing. I was being filled with God's Holy Spirit.”
2 Timothy 1:7 says: "God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of power and of love, and a sound mind."(Tory Walker)

 This woman had severe mental disorders, ans saw demons with her own eyes.

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Donna H on February 15, 2010, 06:13:37 PM
Yes, it helps very much. It is an important distinction to make between repentance and condemnation. I have been struggleing with moving out of feeling condemned. Being new and all, I think it is a normal growth, but is quite unpleasant  :-\. To make the distinction is very helpful. It seems that to be in a constant state of repentance might be as simple as humility, as knowing our place in our relationship with God, and always being aware of the enormity of our gift. It could actually keep us from sinning, to be aware like that, having a repentant heart. If repentance is crucial in order for us to return and be close to God, then a constant state would  keep us always close to God. I was getting the feeling of condemnation mixed up with repentance and it seemed to be something that would seperate me. Wow, what an incredible untwisting.  Yesterday was huge for me also in that I saw the 10 Commandments as promises for the first time, rather than orders from a hostile, furrow-browed God pointing His judging finger down from the opened clouds of heaven. It is so beautiful when the lies come apart and God reveals Himself. This is especially important in light of the IJ, and the encouragement that I truly need.

There is nothing as wonderful in all the universe and my own experience as having the lies of Satan fall away from my vision, so I can see and experience more of who God really is. Nothing can compare.

Thank you, and God bless.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Mimi on February 15, 2010, 06:25:46 PM
Wow! I just love hearing this. It truly is one of the most wonderful experiences. It took me a very, very long time to come to this understanding. Again, bless you, dear Donna.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Tim2 on February 15, 2010, 06:51:45 PM
Yes!!!  What an encouraging testimony for me, too.  By beholding, you are being change from glory to glory.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on February 15, 2010, 06:58:06 PM
We rejoice with you, dear sister. I once read something that explained something about God that was a blessing. It may bless you also. I share it in this topic that we may encourage those who find the subject of the Investigative Judgment fearful. If we correctly understand that God is actively working for our salvation, it helps us to cooperate with Him.

"His name shall be called Immanuel, . . . God with us." "The light of the knowledge of the glory of God" is seen "in the face of Jesus Christ." From the days of eternity the Lord Jesus Christ was one with the Father; He was "the image of God," the image of His greatness and majesty, "the outshining of His glory." It was to manifest this glory that He came to our world. To this sin-darkened earth He came to reveal the light of God's love,--to be "God with us." Therefore it was prophesied of Him, "His name shall be called Immanuel."    

By coming to dwell with us, Jesus was to reveal God both to men and to angels. He was the Word of God,--God's thought made audible. In His prayer for His disciples He says, "I have declared unto them Thy name,"--"merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,"--"that the love wherewith Thou hast loved Me may be in them, and I in them." But not alone for His earthborn children was this revelation given. Our little world is the lesson book of the universe. God's wonderful purpose of grace, the mystery of redeeming love, is the theme into which "angels desire to look," and it will be their study throughout endless ages. Both the redeemed and the unfallen beings will find in the cross of Christ their science and their song. It will be seen that the glory shining in the face of Jesus is the glory of self-sacrificing love. In the light from Calvary it will be seen that the law of self-renouncing love is the law of life for earth and heaven; that the love which "seeketh not her own" has its source in the heart of God; and that in the meek and lowly One is manifested the character of Him who dwelleth in the light which no man can approach unto.  

God is not waiting to stamp out our lives, to the contrary, He loves us so much He sent His Son at great risk to rescue us. The law of heaven and earth is seen in His self-sacrificing love. When Jesus is in us, we manifest that self-sacrificing love.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Wally on February 16, 2010, 03:24:53 AM
Wally, did you read my post? I said some are born with mental retardation. I stand on everything I said. You don't think demons can cause chemical imbalance? Read the book of Job.

“The more time I spent with Jesus Christ, the more I found that fear, depression, anxiety and mania were ebbing. I was being filled with God's Holy Spirit.”
2 Timothy 1:7 says: "God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of power and of love, and a sound mind."(Tory Walker)

 This woman had severe mental disorders, ans saw demons with her own eyes.



Sorry, I missed the part about being born with mental retardation.

But I don't see how the book of Job has anything to do with mental disorders.  Job was discouraged, as anyone would be after having lost nearly everything, not to mention the boils.

Of course demons could effect chemical imbalances.  But don't believe one can categorically attribute most mental disorders to demons.  If that were the case then is nearly every cold, flu, or cancer attributable to demons also?  After 6000 years of human degeneration it is inevitable that there will be sickness, both physical and mental (our health message was given to counteract that as much as possible, in both the physical and mental realms.).  But to assume that demons are directly involved in most cases appears to me to go beyond what either the Bible or the SOP says on the subject.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Tim2 on February 16, 2010, 05:05:31 AM
Just as it is our privilege to have Christ formed within (Christ in you, the hope of glory), the closer we move to the end of earth's period of history granted called probation, satan's followers will also have his diabolical image formed within.  We are told this in no uncertain terms -- but as we have also seen in the ministry of Jesus on this earth, even a demoniac can choose.  We must pray for the spiritual discernment to know how to be of service. 

In the IJ, God takes into consideration the back ground of a person.  Each must trust and obey in every particular to their best ability, walking according to the spirit --making no provision for the flesh.  Choosing to be in Christ each moment releases His enabling grace and only then do we have the power to practice a fitness for heaven.  After we have done our best, Christ sprinkles the moistening drops of His infinitely perfect obedience on our human shortfall and we are given the spotless robe of His righteousness.  Oh, gracious provision!!  On this earth, He was treated as we deserve that we who trust in Him, might be treated as He deserves.  With His stripes we are healed.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on February 16, 2010, 06:37:14 AM

On this earth, He was treated as we deserve that we who trust in Him, might be treated as He deserves.  With His stripes we are healed.

Amen!!

Quote
In the IJ, God takes into consideration the back ground of a person.

Yes and no.  We have to be careful here because of false teaching in the churches. "To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin." So, many Sunday keepers will be in heaven when they have truly experienced the new birth and walked after the Spirit, because they did not know the seventh day Sabbath was binding. But, God does not excuse known sin because of a person's background. A person must be changed in character no matter what the background. Some will not be saved because they could not be changed.

Quote
Each must trust and obey in every particular to their best ability, walking according to the spirit --making no provision for the flesh.

Here can be made an opening for sin. Some will say that because one was surprised into sin, or did not premeditate sin, that it is not chargeable, but this is not so. These are excuses for sin. There is no excuse for known sin. We need to look at some examples of what you mean when you say "to their best ability." If they are walking according to the Spirit, they have Christ within and self is  dead. Their hearts are pure and their motives are pure. It makes no difference that they eat the wrong food or wear the wrong clothes, it is the heart that God looks upon in the IJ.  The books are opened that reveal the deeds, the words, the thoughts, and the motives. The universe will get to see these things for out of the abundance of the heart the mouths speaks. But, more than this, the motives are written down for all to see. If the motives were not holy and pure, then the person's shortcomings will not be covered by the blood of Christ.

This is why our Sister Donna finds this thread so difficult. In it we must be truthful about the law of God. Too many "theologians" have brought into the churches doctrinal teachings that have deceived the lambs and the sheep. They have a false idea of what is required for salvation. The road has been made to go downhill rather than the steep uphill that it is. This is  a false assurance of salvation. We need to guard against the lies so that we can claim the precious promises we have been given.

Here is how God takes the background of the sinner into account. It is not in the IJ, but in life that God makes provision for the background and the current situation of the sinner. "I will not allow you to be tempted  beyond what you can bear." When in Christ, rather than forgive sin that is not repented of and forsaken, God keeps one from being tempted  beyond what he can bear. He does two things. First He protects the sinner from temptations that he is not ready for. No loss of a child or pulling of fingernails. Then, when the measured temptation is allowed to come, God gives grace to be lifted above it. This is the method that God uses to meet us where we are. He does not excuse known sin. The heart is pure or it is not. It is the condition of the heart that will be revealed in the IJ. Jesus will not make up for a heart that has not been fully given to Him. The motives must be pure and holy.

When  exceptions are made in this area, then there is no assurance of salvation because then there is no standard in the judgment. What is the standard? It is the law of God. No excuses, but the sins that were not known are not chargeable. God looks upon the heart. It must be pure, the motives must be pure. Self must  be dead. When Christ is allowed into the heart, He purifies it. The man is a new  creature in Christ Jesus.

I fear that some will make excuses for their sins when they are given any opportunity to do so. There is no excuse for sin. When we come to know this, then we will look for a Savior that can save us from our sin, not in our sin. Yes, this is a hard message. It is a fearful message to all who have not tasted of the power of grace. But, when by experience, we taste of His love and learn of His power, we understand by experience that  His yoke is light!  We are given precious promises that do not excuse  sin, but rather empower sinful man to keep the commandments of God through faith in Jesus.

Quote
"Choosing to be in Christ each moment releases His enabling grace and only then do we have the power to practice a fitness for heaven."

Amen!  And  not only do we  obey all that we know, we walk in all the light we have been given, our characters are perfected so that we more perfectly reflect our Savior in what we do.

Quote
After we have done our best, Christ sprinkles the moistening drops of His infinitely perfect obedience on our human shortfall and we are given the spotless robe of His righteousness.  Oh, gracious provision!!

We may be saying the same thing, but I can 't see it in that order. In me is no good thing.  To do my best then receive His robe is not good. First, I must have my heart purified, then I receive His  robe. There is no works of  righteousness in salvation.  The good works follow conversion. And, the robe is  given to produce good works. It does not come afterward. When a man is converted, he has seen Christ on the cross and his heart is broken, he ceases to resist  His great love and allows the Spirit to take possession of his heart. When  this happens, the filthy garments are removed and the robe of  Christ's righteousness is placed on the sinner. The removing of the  filthy garments and the placing of the "white raiment" is an object lesson. No unconfessed sins are covered  over. The filthy character, the defiled heart are cleansed and once clean, the character of Christ is not only imputed, but imparted to the sinner. This is the robe of His righteousness being spoken of. It is His character, perfect at each stage of Christian maturity. It is Christ, not I. It is His Spirit controlling the fallen flesh.

Christ will indeed make up for some shortcomings. We do not perfectly match Christ. Many today eat food that makes them sick. Many do not receive the blessing from keeping His day of rest. Many dress in a manner that does not give  glory to God. These things God will excuse IF the sinner does not know. Slapping one's wife, no matter how ignorant one is will not be covered by His robe of righteousness. The heart must first be made pure by the indwelling presence of  His  Spirit. Each of the fruits are given  at conversion, not one is missing. Love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance are in the life of the converted Christian. These are not missing. This is Christ, not I.

I am sure that you, Brother Tim, and I are very close in our understanding, but there are many who use these ideas to make a person who is not fully surrendered a "saved" Christian. There is no standard of Christian character to them. Whatever the thoughts and motives, the deficiency is made up by Christ because after all, we are fallen sinners and cannot perfectly obey His law. Therefore, there is no standard to know in whom we trust. We are not saved by our good works, but they testify to ourselves and the universe that it is not I, but Christ enthroned upon the heart. Here many professing Christians have not understood the right relationship between works and faith. Satan has stolen a march on the church and caused many to believe that  good works are not an evidence of conversion. :(  The fruits of His Spirit are the sure results of having made a full surrender to Christ. The works of the flesh reveal the absence of  Christ in the life.

On a positive note, Sister  Donna, there is no reason to not have this experience. It is available to the worst  sinner. Matter of fact, when converted and taken to heaven  they will stand closest to Jesus! Why? Because those who were the greatest sinners were the ones forgiven the most. And, he who is forgiven much, loves much. Those who love Jesus the most will stand closest to Him!

We are saved by grace. Where is grace? It surrounds us and is thicker than the air we breathe. Jesus said "If I be lifted up (and He was) I will draw all men unto me." He does not lie. He is drawing all to Himself. What excuse do we have? None. Jesus is working on our behalf  today. He knows us personally and His great work is to save us into His kingdom! If  He  be for  us, who can be against us!!! He is continually knocking on the door of the heart wanting in. It is only by resistance to that pleading that keeps Him out. If we will learn of Him, He will save us!! If we seek Him,  we shall find Him!!!
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Steve Billiter on February 16, 2010, 07:15:28 AM
"Each must trust and obey in every particular to their best ability, walking according to the spirit --making no provision for the flesh."

I see no opening for sin in this statement. "making no provision for the flesh" is exactly that, making no provision for sin.

The whole statement to me is very solid, I find no fault with it.

1Pe 2:11  Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

Rom 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Richard, when you say one can be "surprised into sin" or "unpremeditated sin" then you digress from the quote. Please concentrate on "no provision" no means no, it does not mean "yes" in any manner.

Thank you, Steve
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on February 16, 2010, 08:09:16 AM
Brother Steve, there is often in life more than we can see. At times God will lead others past what I know. In this case you cannot see what I am saying. Let me try and better explain  what  I mean.

Brother Tim's statement was this: "Each must trust and obey in every particular to their best ability, walking according to the spirit --making no provision for the flesh."   

If  I say this, is it the same thing?   "Each must trust and obey in every particular walking according to the spirit --making no provision for the flesh."   

If  it is not the same, please  share with me why it is not.  In other words, what do you see as "to their best ability" meaning? What does this say to you?
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Steve Billiter on February 16, 2010, 09:03:35 AM
Richard, can one do other than their best in cooperation with God? Can you do better than your best? Is anyones best not good enough for you? This does not mean, nor do I mean, we do our best apart from God. No one can make "no provision for the flesh" unless he is empowered by the Spirit.

Tim's statement in my view is rock solid.

Thank you, Steve
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on February 16, 2010, 10:11:50 AM
Brother Steve, it is not what I think, it is what God says. He is the judge, not me. But, I think it good that we understand the plan of salvation. It appears that you do, but many do not.  I am just asking you to share with us what this statement means.  I do not know what it means. Maybe if you give me something from Scripture that will help me and others understand. It must not be sin. Is that right? Or is it sin? What are we saying when we say "to their best ability." It seems to imply that something is amiss. Is it known sin or just unknown sin? I am asking for clarification so none will come up to the day of reckoning and be surprised when Jesus says, depart from me. Can you tell me where I can find this truth in Scripture. Thank you.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Steve Billiter on February 16, 2010, 10:42:57 AM
Richard, I think it is already very clear. I gave scripture and my analysis. Lets not split hairs.

Thank you Steve
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Donna H on February 16, 2010, 11:29:53 AM
Regarding receiving the gifts of the Spirit, perfection, giving our whole heart to God, and "making no provision for the flesh"...

... with some reluctance, and a humble preface of newbie-ness. I'm not claiming to know anything, but trying to excersise the possiblity of knowing something. This is just how it seems at this point in time:


God does not force Himself upon us. This we know. He works in us to unravel our minds and our hearts - our beliefs and our protective defenses - in tender, compassionate, pleading ways so we can choose to give, and allow ourselves to receive. He's definately working for us tirelessly. But we can only choose to give our hearts and minds to Him as much as we trust Him. So, also, we can only receive as much as we trust Him.

I don't know about you guys, but I have some pretty rock hard mental defenses which I have built up in order to save my life. We all do, and we all are unaware of how deep they go. As soon as trust is broken in our lives (and it starts very early for many) we erect some sort of defense, and build up those walls and our hearts become hardened. God has to unravel all that so we truly do trust Him (Faith is a gift from God). We can only give our hearts and minds to God as much as we trust Him. To trust is not a decision we make. We take the chance, but trust is always built and earned. God definately has taken the responsibility in my life and in our relationship to build that trust in me. He proves Himself to me continually.  And with the deepening of trust, I love more deeply, and I am able to give more of my heart and mind, which leads to an increased ability to obey, naturally. Our characters do change, and obedience becomes our character. But still, every growth God grows in me I realize more that is in the way. And He proves Himself again, and the circle deepens.

Because He does not force us, but allows us to choose, He is limited in the time it takes for His love to be perfected in us. We can only ever give to the best of our ability, both with God and without God, because we are both with God and without God, not according to His desire or in contradiction to the reality of His constant and eternal presence, but according to our choice, which is limited by our trust, which was limited by all the hurts and wounds we have nursed with lies from the enemy and our own futile mental constructs.

"I'll never be perfect soon enough!" is my desperate fear, but there has to be room for growth. And we can only ever do our best with God and without God because He will not force us. I want the magic wand to make me perfect. I want the full measure of His gifts. I want to be complete. But I'm riddled with secret faults, as we all are, and I can't handle them all at once because trust is a life and death issue, and I cannot just simply choose to trust completely.

Jesus knows me because I know Him. I know Jesus because I seek Him and He shows Himself to me. Jesus knows me because I opened the door when He knocked and I let Him in. I know this is true because I am a changed woman.  My life is a miracle and a testimony of His power to save. I can tell the world from my personal experience that God is love, and Jesus is the light of the world and there is no darkness in Him.  I know God. I know the God of the Bible is true and real.

But I'm not perfect, nor even close to being perfect.
I have the gifts of the Spirit, but I also have sin, and they didn't all come at once, and I'm still working on a couple.
I please God with the Holy Spirit, but I'm a dichotomy,
and I can only ever do my best according to my ability, both with God and without God.

"If we say we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." I John 1:8 

How is it that anyone is going to be able say that they are perfect? At any point in our lives? Even if we are able to walk entirely according to the Spirit, we will have our corrupted and corruptable bodies and sin will be in us. And we will know we have sin.



Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: ian rankin on February 16, 2010, 12:57:11 PM
\Hi,
I have been reading with great interest the exchganges on this topic. One thing I notice is that the discussion focusses on the end of the Investigative Judgement and I feel it is important to start with the beginning'
By that I mean that the subject starts with the sanctuary, the annual Day of Atonement.
On that day only two things mattered:-
1. Was the individual's covenant relationship clear? The NT application is Jn 5:24
     Remember that the offerings were for ceremonial defilement. There were no offering for deliberate breaking of the commandments Num 15:27-36. Lev 4. Heb 9:7. Heb 6:4-6

2. Would the High Priest be accepted? For the NT believer, our High Priest has already been accepted

God bless,
Ian
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Steve Billiter on February 16, 2010, 02:49:51 PM
"and I can only ever do my best according to my ability, both with God and without God."

Amen Donna, well said.

God Bless! Steve
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Tim2 on February 16, 2010, 04:27:53 PM
Richard, I always admire your raising the standard.  You are right when you say there is no excuse for sin.  I agree.  I cannot trust myself when it comes to making excuses.  Remember Adam and Eves initial response to "being caught?"  It comes so natural to us and I don't want to be like that.  Here are a couple quotes from which I drew my earlier thoughts.

 Jesus loves His children, even if they err. They belong to Jesus and we are to treat them as the purchase of the blood of Jesus Christ. Any unreasonable course pursued toward them is written in the books as against Jesus Christ. He keeps His eye upon them, and when they do their best, calling upon God for His help, be assured the service will be accepted, although imperfect. Jesus is perfect. Christ's righteousness is imputed unto them, and He will say, Take away the filthy garments from him, and clothe him with change of raiment. Jesus makes up for our unavoidable deficiencies. Where Christians are faithful to each other, true and loyal to the Captain of the Lord's host, never betraying trusts into the enemy's hands, they will be transformed into Christ's character. Jesus will abide in their hearts by faith.--Letter 17a, 1891, p. 8. (To Brother and Sister Ings, and Elder Fulton, Nov. 18, 1891.)  Released Sept. 19, 1961. {2MR 184.2}

The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin, ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary: but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God. . . . All incense from earthly tabernacles must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ. He holds before the Father the censer of His own merits, in which there is no taint of earthly corruption. He gathers into this censer the prayers, the praise, and the confessions of His people, and with these He puts His own spotless righteousness. Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ's propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable. . . .  {AG 154.4}

     O, that all may see that everything in obedience, in penitence, in praise and thanksgiving must be placed upon the glowing fire of the righteousness of Christ. {AG 154.5}

I was also trying to look up a quote that I ran across sometime back.  Perhaps someone can help me out.  It is something about how God takes into consideration where a man comes from (background).



Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Steve Billiter on February 16, 2010, 05:46:34 PM
Ian,

I'm not sure what your main point is here, but yes the sanctuary service really starts in Leviticus  and other OT sections. There were sin offerings, burnt offerings, trespass offerings, thank offerings and much more. Before that it really starts with Adam, Cain and Abel.
Hebrews 9 is critical for transition to Christ in the holy place, and then the Most Holy. The yearly anti-typical Day of Atonement represents the work of Christ in the Most Holy, and carries all the way to the scapegoat, represented by Satan as he bears the final penalty for his sin and the sin of the saints, when the cleansing flames do their work at the end of the 1000 years.

Then we study the 2300 years on to 1844 and the 3 angels messages, with the temple in heaven open and the ark of the covenant in view and the light shining upon the 4th commandment, the Sabbath. Connected also is the Open and Shut door in the Bible and EGW.

The investigative judgment really forms the heart of Adventist doctrine, as all truth is connected to this vital pillar of our faith.

Steve
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Tim2 on February 16, 2010, 08:08:37 PM
I was thinking about the SOP quote were she pens the phrase "when they do their best."  This is obviously only something God can know.  Our best is constantly falling short of God's glory and yet we are to change from glory to glory as we behold Him.  As we press on toward the mark of our high calling, our best then, becomes better and better according to the heavenly standard.  Our own judgment of what our best is, would only hold us back from Gods lofty requirements.   Thank you, Richard for helping me see that.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Mimi on February 16, 2010, 08:53:22 PM
Is this it, Brother Tim?

There is no excuse for sin or for indolence. Jesus has led the way, and He wishes us to follow in His steps. He has suffered, He has sacrificed as none of us can, that He might bring salvation within our reach. We need not be discouraged. Jesus came to our world to bring divine power to man, that through His grace, we might be transformed into His likeness.  {FW 49.4}
 
    When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit. But He will not accept those who claim to have faith in Him and yet are disloyal to His Father's commandment. We hear a great deal about faith, but we need to hear a great deal more about works. Many are deceiving their own souls by living an easy-going, accommodating, crossless religion.  {FW 50.1} 

     But Jesus says, "If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me" (Matthew 16:24).  {FW 50.2} 
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on February 16, 2010, 09:30:10 PM
I was thinking about the SOP quote were she pens the phrase "when they do their best."  This is obviously only something God can know.  Our best is constantly falling short of God's glory and yet we are to change from glory to glory as we behold Him.  As we press on toward the mark of our high calling, our best then, becomes better and better according to the heavenly standard.  Our own judgment of what our best is, would only hold us back from Gods lofty requirements.   Thank you, Richard for helping me see that.

Yes, the closer we get to Jesus, the better our understanding of His ways. Then, we more clearly see our imperfections. The statement Sister Sybil has provided helps us to better understand what these "deficiencies" are.  Often we find teachers who make excuses for sin using these thoughts in an attempt to make void God's Word. Only half of the truth is presented and by excluding the other half, the truth is misrepresented. It therefore becomes very important to define what "deficiencies" are. One thing that they are not, is a lack of faith or a broken relationship. Salvation is a complete surrender where self is dead. The heart is pure and holy. The flesh is corrupt, but not the new heart. The only good in man is when the Spirit lives in the heart of man. It is not I, but Christ. Each of the fruits of the Spirit are present when one is a partaker of the divine nature.

In the investigative judgment, the evidence is not God's Word that a person's heart was pure, but it is the deeds, the words, the thoughts, and the motives. All will understand that the life was given fully to Christ or it was not. None will question the sentence rendered. The final decision rests upon evidence. A life that measures with the law of God.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Steve Billiter on February 16, 2010, 10:02:25 PM
Richard, somehow the focus from Tims original quote was not treated on its own merits, that was my focus, apparently it was not yours.

"Each must trust and obey in every particular to their best ability, walking according to the spirit --making no provision for the flesh." 

Tims original quote speaks of our very best we can give to God in obedience to His requirements, "making no provision for the flesh" is the loftiest goal imaginable. I spoke from the platform of today, one day at a time, so my purpose was to not carry forward that line of thinking to the next level, though I could have.

Then you said:

 If  I say this, is it the same thing?   "Each must trust and obey in every particular walking according to the spirit --making no provision for the flesh."   

Here you speak of the perfection of Jesus Christ. Can we attain to that goal? This means not even sinning by our thoughts.

We can only attain to His perfection by His Robe of Righteousness He covers us with, as ours is filthy rags.

 None need fail of attaining, in his sphere, to perfection of Christian character. By the sacrifice of Christ, provision has been made for the believer to receive all things that pertain to life and godliness. God calls upon us to reach the standard of perfection and places before us the example of Christ's character. In His humanity, perfected by a life of constant resistance of evil, the Saviour showed that through co-operation with Divinity, human beings may in this life attain to perfection of character. This is God's assurance to us that we, too, may obtain complete victory{AA 531.2} 

The quote that you changed to, to me sets an unattainable goal as it stands alone. Though later in the thread you do expound well on Christs righteousness, it seems that it should have been connected to your quote change, since you desired to take things to another level.

It is implied, since no other distinction was originally made , that one is doing his best, that day we speak of. Who can ask for more?

So my objection is that is instead of you saying, "In addition to that" and giving exposition on sanctification, you instead chose to take that quote away from it's origin and stand-alone position, which was the original intent, and say you see opening for sin!

I disagree. the "opening for sin" that you implied was the person was not perfect "like Christ" but only doing his best.

It would have been in my view more correct to say,"In addition, one may fall into sin if his walk with Christ is not progressive."
.

But then what about afterward? What about the days following "our best?"

Pro 4:18  But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shines more and more to the perfect day.

As we die to self daily and put on Christ, our path of light that shines with increased knowledge and the ever-increasing discerning of the will of God, will shine brighter and we will receive fresh revelations of God's glory as time moves forward to the perfect day when He comes. Bible sanctification is that process where we behold Christ, and from day to day we are formed in the image of His lovely character to better reflect His perfect example.

I maintain that Tim's quote in its original limited meaning was perfectly fine, I see no error, nor any lack thereof "in its sphere." Saying the quote itself leaves opening for sin without further qualification is in my view, unjustified.



Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Tim2 on February 17, 2010, 05:32:52 AM
Thank you, brother Steve for your words of encouragement.  Although I've been a Christian SDA for a long time, there is never a time when I can't learn more.  I have the luxury of throwing my own thoughts out there into cyberspace and feeling that I have expressed myself correctly.  The moderators of this forum have a much more difficult task to consider; how a reply might be received from a wide variety of backgrounds, education, personalities and religious persuasions -- I understand the need for constantly tempering each statement with a balancing truth.  I don't take it personally.  In fact, I appreciate it! :)  We all try to share in the most courteous, Christ-like manner in hope that it will ultimately assist in each members spiritual growth -- no matter what level -- the goal is to be "in Christ", exhibiting the fruits of the spirit --

This kind of communication is difficult sometimes because emotion is read (rightly or wrongly) into what is being said.  It's just the nature of this kind of communication.  So we all try extra, extra, extra hard as far as "how" we say something and how we respond to what is said.  When I first became a member, I just shared in my usual blunt, to the point way.  I didn't realize that I offended often -- I had to apologize. :-[

In all fairness, though, some of the caution that is being sent my way is because of my stance on Romans 7.  You may find much more to disagree with there, my friend. :)  But.... as far as the Investigative Judgment and after probation closes, we must not be sinning even in a thought.  (Oh, I've got work to do in that area -- please, pray for me!)  When the test comes, it will reveal the character that we have already developed -- just as it was in school.  The final exam did not prepare us -- but revealed the time we had already spent in preparation.  Again, brother Steve, thank you for your kind thoughts.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Steve Billiter on February 17, 2010, 06:33:25 AM
Amen, Tim, I'm still learning every day and I praise the Lord for bearing long with me. Richard desired to direct our thoughts higher, and there's certainly nothing wrong with that, and I believe he did do that. Sometimes learned brethren will kindly disagree upon methodology and theological concepts, but the Lord has provided also for our edification.

May Jesus continue to reveal Himself to you as you seek Him!
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on February 17, 2010, 11:06:43 AM
So we all try extra, extra, extra hard as far as "how" we say something and how we respond to what is said.  When I first became a member, I just shared in my usual blunt, to the point way.  I didn't realize that I offended often -- I had to apologize. :-[

It is true that I have a short memory when it comes to such things, but I don't recall you offending anyone, dear brother. While we disagree on Romans 7, you have never offended anyone that I know of by your words.  You have been gracious in presenting your thoughts. It is so much appreciated.

Quote
In all fairness, though, some of the caution that is being sent my way is because of my stance on Romans 7.

It is not in my mind. :)  I know what is being taught in the church and I know what statements are used to undo the power and need of grace, moment by moment. It is the twisting of Scripture that goes on day after day. Satan does not present just error, he presents truth mingled with error. After years of contending with both liberals and conservatives, I have learned to put statements in their proper context so that others will not be led further away from the truth as it is in Jesus. It is not a reflection on your presentation, Brother Tim, but just knowing that many will take the statement to mean something it does not. If the church were not in a Laodicean condition, then it would not be so important. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned, but the church is Laodicean. Therefore, the blind cannot see. Our effort is to present Christ as the power to overcome. Most presentations in Christian churches are not directed at the true gospel of grace where it is revealed we need Jesus all the time. Most "gospels" excuse sin and allow for the sinner to have eternal life when Jesus is not in possession of the heart. This removes the ability of the schoolmaster to lead the sinner to see his need of Christ. If one believes he is well when he is sick, then he continues to remain apart from Christ, not seeing his need.

When I say that when doing my best, I have eternal life, then it is a subjective matter. Most who are in the churches today will say "I am doing my best".  This serves only to keep the sinner locked in his lost condition. Brother Tim, I know that this is not what you are saying, but there are many who are. The relatively few who are converted, understand that their best is not good enough. It is Christ they need. But, so many are living a life of deception. They are trying, but when their names come up before God and the books are opened, they will meet with disappointment, their best was not good enough. The criteria for salvation is having Christ, loving Christ with all the heart. He will finish the work in us, but only if we understand that we have not arrived. If we think that doing our best is good enough, most will fail of attaining salvation.  We are not preaching to the choir. The choir is very very small. The churches are deceived in this matter. Most need a clear understanding of the simplicity of the gospel. This is the burden God has placed on my heart. The loveliness of Jesus is what we need to see. If we will behold Him, if we will feed upon Him, He will lead us to the fountain of waters that result in eternal life.


Quote
You may find much more to disagree with there, my friend. :)  But.... as far as the Investigative Judgment and after probation closes, we must not be sinning even in a thought.  (Oh, I've got work to do in that area -- please, pray for me!)  When the test comes, it will reveal the character that we have already developed -- just as it was in school.  The final exam did not prepare us -- but revealed the time we had already spent in preparation.

Amen!!  And probation is closing for many today and for many others tomorrow. Today is the day of salvation.   Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?  He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully. He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.   Psalms 24:3-5.  God's grace is sufficient. Let us feed upon Him who gave all for us.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: ian rankin on February 18, 2010, 12:52:30 PM
Steve,
I am replying to your posting No 166.
You write, ‘I am not sure what your main point is here’.  I shall try to clarify my point.

You write, ‘The Investigative Judgement doctrine really forms the heart of Adventist doctrine’. I would add, ‘of end-time events.’
The test of the truth of this as Bible doctrine is being able to show it as the anti-typical fulfilment of the Old Testament annual feast of the Day of Atonement.

There is a general belief that the sanctuary services allowed the Israelite the opportunity to make the appropriate offering for forgiveness of his sins, that is, transgression of the Law.
However the offerings an individual Israelite made were for ceremonial defilement, or on becoming aware of having unintentionally broken the Law. See Leviticus 4 and Numbers 15:27-31. This is referred to in Hebrews 9:7.
Ps 51, the experience of David when confronted with his adultery and murder illustrates that there was no prescribed offering for forgiveness of wilful breaking of the commandments. All he could do was to seek God’s forgiveness and God always accepts a broken spirit and contrite heart.

Our understanding of the anti-typical Investigative Judgement must grow from our understanding of Day of Atonement.

On that day an Israelite’s security was not his sinlessness, but his being in covenant relationship and the ministry of his high priest being accepted. Note John 5:24, those who have accepted Jesus, ‘do not come into judgement’.
God bless,
Ian



Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Steve Billiter on February 18, 2010, 07:04:45 PM
Ian, I cannot agree with you. The Bible is clear that sacrifices were ordained by God to prefigure Christ on the Day of Atonement. It is true OT men repented and confessed sin just as we do, but they also offered the sacrifices as proscribed by God. No merit was in the animal sacrifices, the merit then was in Christ, but the Israelites still were required to obey God in every particular of the sanctuary service.

The record of Cain and Abel proves that to be true. Lev. 16, speaks of the day of atonement.

Lev 16:15  Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the veil, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:

Lev 16:16  And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remains among them in the middle of their uncleanness.

Lev 16:29  And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you:

"Afflict your souls" meaning confession of sin and repentance.

The IJ is also connected to the OT sanctuary service. We did not have light on the IJ until 1844, when Jesus entered the Most holy.

Yes, we have a record of Davids repentance in Psalm 51, but David also participated in all the Lord commanded concerning the sacrificial and feast system. without that, Davids sins would not have been forgiven.

Where do you get the idea that the day of Atonement was a feast day?

Good books on the sanctuary are, "The Sanctuary Service"  by M L. Andreasen, which I am reading now, And the
"Cross and its Shadow" by Stephen N. Haskel;

The entire body of the whole burnt-offering and portions of various offerings were burned upon this brazen altar. It consumed that which typified sin; and as the fires were continually burning, it has been called "the altar of continual atonement." Sin separates man from God, 10 and all sin must be put away before the sinner can be at-one-ment with God. Therefore the work done upon this altar was a symbol of the final destruction of sin, which will be necessary before the redeemed can enjoy their eternal inheritance. {1914 SNH, CIS 175.1}
Paul referred to this altar as a type of Christ. 11 All the work connected with the altar of burnt-offering typified the work connected with the destruction of sin, a work which Christ alone can do. The Father has delivered into the hands of His Son the final destruction of sin and sinners. 12 {1914 SNH, CIS 175.2} S.N. Haskell


No sacrifice was ever slain within the sanctuary; but the offerings were slain in the court, and the blood and flesh were carried within the sanctuary by the priest. Christ, the great antitypical Sacrifice, was slain in the antitypical court, this earth, and then entered the antitypical sanctuary in the heavens with His own blood and the same body in which He bore our sins on Calvary. Sins are forgiven, and are blotted out from the books in the heavenly sanctuary; but they are not destroyed there. Just as in the type the fires of the brazen altar in the court consumed that which in type represented sin; so in the antitype, the wicked will be "on the breadth of the earth" when fire comes down from God out of heaven and devours them. 13 This earth is the great antitypical court, where all the work typified in the court of the earthly sanctuary will meet its fulfilment. {1914 SNH, CIS 176.3}
The constant burning upon the altar of that which typified sin, caused an accumulation of ashes. The priests in the earthly sanctuary served "unto the example and shadow of
177
heavenly things," 14 and even the removal of the ashes was directed of the Lord to be done in a manner to typify a portion of the final work of Christ. The priest was to be clothed in the pure white linen garments, when he removed the ashes from the altar. The ashes were first taken up by the priest and placed "beside the altar" on the east side. 15 When the time came to remove them from beside the altar, the priest laid aside his priestly robes, and "put on other garments;" then he carried the ashes forth without the camp, and poured them out in "a clean place." 17 Ashes are all that will remain of sin, the devil and sinners after the fires of the 1ast day have finished their work.  When the purifying fires of the Lord have removed the last trace of sin, there will appear a new earth, a clean place, without one taint of sin upon it; and as the righteous walk over the face of the clean, pure earth, the ashes of sin and all that clung to sin in this earth will be under their feet. Truly the type will then have met its antitype, and the ashes of all sin will be in "a clean place." {1914 SNH, CIS 176.4
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on February 19, 2010, 09:31:53 AM
 Remember that the offerings were for ceremonial defilement. There were no offering for deliberate breaking of the commandments Num 15:27-36. Lev 4. Heb 9:7. Heb 6:4-6

This thought has come up before. I have never heard a good explanation of how these deliberate sins could be forgiven if there were no sacrifice made for them. Can you explain your thinking on this, Brother Ian? Thank you.

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Donna H on February 19, 2010, 04:08:46 PM
Can you help me out?

How can it be that Christ will at some point stop being our mediator?

Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil.
– The Great Controversy, chapter 24

This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one that enters within the veil, where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.
-Hebrews 6:19, 20


Can someone point me to scripture that explains this part of the IJ? I am reading about the IJ, but there is a lot to read. If someone could point me straight there, I would appreciate it.

Thank you
dchena

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Steve Billiter on February 19, 2010, 05:24:39 PM
Yes Donna, I'll try. Just before the Lords return Jesus will leave the Most Holy and make this pronouncement:

Rev 22:11  He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Rev 22:12  And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

At this point the High Priest duties of Jesus is over.The living saints have over come every sin and will stand in the sight of a Holy God without a mediator. This is also the time of Jacob's trouble, and the saints will agonize with God, afflicting their souls because of their unworthiness.

Rev 3:21  To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

And your question about Hebrews:

Heb 6:20  Where the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

The Greek word "ever" in this context mean a certain age, or period on time, or until it's done. It does not carry the meaning of "unending." Why would anyone need a mediator in heaven?

Rev 14:11  And the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

The same Greek word and its meaning in this context is used here. The wicked only burn until its done.

So we can overcome sin in the strength and power of Jesus Christ:

Php 4:13  I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me.

1Co 15:57  But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 I suggest reading th last few chapters of the Great Controversy.

God Bless! Steve














Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: colporteur on February 19, 2010, 06:19:30 PM
Donna;

I believe this is a matter of understanding what "mediating" means when we are told that God's people will be without a mediator when Christ stands up.

When Christ stands the judgment and atonement are complete. There is no more sin to mediate for. Anyone that continues in sin at that point has already been found wanting, there character will not be changed and any more mediating for sin would accomplish nothing. That does not mean that God is not protecting, leading, and sustaning His people. He is still our High Priest.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on February 19, 2010, 06:28:03 PM
You are a very good student, dear sister!  

You may be misunderstanding what a mediator is. When we understand why we need a mediator, then we will understand when we do not need one. It will in a large degree be influenced by what we have come to understand about salvation and the power of grace to transform the character.

The dictionary defines mediator as one that mediates; especially : one that mediates between parties at variance.

This works as I understand the Bible. We come into the world in need of a Saviour because we are separated from God. Salvation comes from being reconciled to God. To each man is given a period of probation to choose who he will serve. In this period of probation, man has a mediator. The mediator will do two things as I understand. First, because of His sacrifice He enables man to have a period of probation, otherwise guilty man would die. That is justice. So, when man sins while that probation is still open, our Mediator pleads for more time. Dung the tree and give it another year before cutting it down. Justice demands death because the wages of sin is death. Separation from God brings death. It is only because of Christ's death that we have this period of temporal life called probation. The second work of the Mediator is to be an advocate in the judgment for those who belong to Him. When the judgment is finished and there is no need for an advocate then there is no more mediation.

This probably presents a difficulty for you because you know there are those who are still living after probation ceases. Do they still need a mediator? Do they need an advocate? No. The judgment is over. Do they need someone to plead for more time? No. Their characters are fixed and they will not sin.

Some err here in thinking that these living Christians have no need of a Saviour. Or they refuse to believe the mediatorial work will end because they misunderstand what the mediatorial work involves. Christ is still Saviour. Matter of fact, the reason why the 144,000 are sealed is because unlike other Christians who did not learn their utter dependence upon Christ, these know that without Christ they can do no good thing. They see their need and have learned to lean on Jesus. The Holy Spirit has not left them. He is cherished by the living Christians. Jesus is their only hope.

Does this help? If not, point out where I have not given enough information. When this subject is rightly understood from Scripture, you will have an anchor in Christ that none can take away. This doctrinal teaching is despised because it does away with being saved in sin. When our High Priest walks out of the heavenly sanctuary, no sin will ever be forgiven again. Anyone who sins after that point will die and be eternally separated from God. Those true Christians living after that time will not sin in the least degree. They remain in Christ and choose not to separate from Him.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Donna H on February 20, 2010, 06:41:23 PM
Thanks. Might still need some clarity.

My understanding was that at the end of probation the Holy Spirit will be removed from us and we will have to go it on our own. This terrifies me because I know my reliance on the Holy Spirit. Even when my character has been wholly conformed to Christ's, it won't be because of me, it will be because of Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I have died to self. The thought of being without the Spirit is my doom.

So the idea of the removal of the Holy Spirit is being left with an utterly sinful and useless self to rely on to keep the commandments of God. It aint gonna happen that way.

But it sounds like what your saying is that when probation ends, my total reliance on Christ and my new character will be sealed? The Holy Spirit that lives in me will continue to live in me? It will be sealed in me? It is those that have not learned these things and have not been changed who will be left to sin? And therefore death?

Am I making sense?

Donna
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: colporteur on February 20, 2010, 06:46:07 PM
I believe you've got it, Donna.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Mimi on February 20, 2010, 07:05:39 PM
Yep ... that's right. When we are sealed at the close of our probation, there is nothing in this world Satan can throw at us to move us from our position on the side of Christ. It will also be at that time when the angels of the Almighty God will stand as protectors around the saints. We will not have a mediator because Jesus will have completed His High Priestly ministry, but the Holy Spirit will be our Comfort. Jesus has said He would never leave us, nor would He forsake us.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Steve Billiter on February 20, 2010, 07:53:19 PM
The Sealing and the Time of Trouble



Dan 12:1  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which stands for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Rev 22:11  He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

When He leaves the sanctuary,(Rev. 22:11) darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old. {GC 614.1}

At the commencement of the holy Sabbath, Jan. 5, 1849, we engaged in prayer with Brother Belden's family at Rocky Hill, Conn., and the Holy Ghost fell upon us. I was taken off in vision to the most holy place, where I saw Jesus still interceding for Israel. On the bottom of His garment was a bell and a pomegranate, a bell and a pomegranate. Then I saw that Jesus would not leave the most holy place until every case was decided either for salvation or destruction, and that the wrath of God could not come until Jesus had finished His work in the most holy place, laid off His priestly attire, and clothed Himself with the garments of vengeance. Then Jesus
                                                                            117
will step out from between the Father and men, and God will keep silence no longer, but pour out His wrath on those who have rejected His truth. I saw that the anger of the nations, the wrath of God, and the time to judge the dead, were separate and  distinct, one following the other; also that Michael had not stood up, and that the time of trouble, such as never was, had not yet commenced. The nations are now getting angry, but when our High Priest has finished His work in the sanctuary, He will stand up, put on the garments of vengeance, and then the seven last plagues will be poured out. {LS 116.1}

     I saw that the four angels would hold the four winds until Jesus' work was done in the sanctuary, and then will come the seven last plagues. These plagues enraged the wicked against the righteous; they thought that we had brought the judgments of God upon them, and that if they could rid the earth of us, the plagues would then be stayed. A decree went forth to slay the saints, which caused them to cry day and night for deliverance. This was the time of Jacob's trouble. Then all the saints cried out with anguish of spirit, and were delivered by the voice of God. The one hundred and forty-four thousand triumphed. Their faces were lighted up with the glory of God. {LS 117.1}

A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

Many will be laid away to sleep before the fiery ordeal of the time of trouble shall come upon our world. This is another reason why we should say after our earnest petition; "Nevertheless not my will, but Thine, be done." Luke 22:42. Such a petition will never be registered in heaven as a faithless prayer. {CH 375.2}

Rev 7:3  Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 22:4  And they shall see His face; and His name shall be in their foreheads.

Rev 14:1  And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 14:3  And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

The Father’s name is the seal of God and represents the Fathers character. His character is reflected in the Ten Commandments, and in particular the 4th commandment which specifically contains the seal of God. His title is God, and His authority reflects he is the Creator of all .His dominion is all He has created
Eze 20:20  And hallow my Sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.
Exo 34:6  And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth
, Exo 34:7  Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
And Jesus also came to reveal the Father:

Joh 14:9  Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Joh 14:7  If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him

Joh 1:18  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

What Jesus represented is also the seal of God, as it is the character of God. We simply need to be in a right standing with Jesus, which includes keeping the commandments and the Sabbath in particular.

The 144,000 were all sealed and perfectly united. On their foreheads was written, God, New Jerusalem, and a glorious star containing Jesus' new name. At our happy, holy state the wicked were enraged, and would rush violently up to lay hands on us to thrust us into prison, when we would stretch forth the hand in the name of the Lord, and the wicked would fall helpless to the ground. Then it was that the synagogue of Satan knew that God had loved us, and they worshiped at our feet. Soon our eyes were drawn to the east, for a small black cloud had appeared about half as large as a man's hand, which we all knew was the sign of the Son of man. We all in solemn silence gazed on the cloud as it drew nearer, and became lighter, glorious, and still more glorious, till it was a great white cloud. The bottom appeared like fire; a rainbow was over it, and around the cloud were ten thousand angels singing a most lovely song. And on it sat the Son of man, on his head were crowns, his hair was white and curly and lay on his shoulders. His feet had the appearance of fire, in his right hand was a sharp sickle, in his left a
                                                                            33
silver trumpet. His eyes were as a flame of fire, which searched his children through and through. Then all faces gathered paleness, and those that God had rejected gathered blackness. Then we all cried out, Who shall be able to stand? Is my robe spotless? Then the angels ceased to sing, and there was some time of awful silence, when Jesus spoke, Those who have clean hands and a pure heart shall be able to stand; my grace is sufficient for you. At this, our faces lighted up, and joy filled every heart. And the angels struck a note higher and sung again while the cloud drew still nearer the earth. Then Jesus' silver trumpet sounded, as he descended on the cloud, wrapped in flames of fire. He gazed on the graves of the sleeping saints, then raised his eyes and hands to heaven and cried, Awake! Awake! Awake! ye that sleep in the dust, and arise. Then there was a mighty earthquake. The graves opened, and the dead came up clothed with immortality. The 144,000 shouted, Hallelujah! as they recognized their friends who had been torn from them by death, and in the same moment we were changed and caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air. We all entered the cloud together, and were seven days ascending to the sea of glass, when Jesus brought along the crowns and with his own right hand placed them on our heads. He
                                                                            34
gave us harps of gold and palms of victory. Here on the sea of glass the 144,000 stood in a perfect square. Some of them had very bright crowns, others not so bright. Some crowns appeared heavy with stars, while others had but few. All were perfectly satisfied with their crowns. And they were all clothed with a glorious white mantle from their shoulders to their feet. Angels were all about us as we marched over the sea of glass to the gate of the city. Jesus raised his mighty, glorious arm, laid hold of the pearly gate and swung it back on its glittering hinges, and said to us,

You have washed your robes in my blood, stood stiffly for my truth, enter in. We all marched in, and felt we had a perfect right in the city. Here we saw the tree of life and the throne of God. Out of the throne came a pure river of water, and on either side of the river was the tree of life. On one side of the river was a trunk of a tree, and a trunk on the other side of the river, both like pure, transparent gold. {2SG 32.1}

     At first I thought I saw two trees. I looked again and saw they were united at the top in one tree. So it was the tree of life, on either side of the river of life. Its branches bowed to the place where we stood; and the fruit was glorious, which looked like gold mixed with silver. We all went under the tree, and sat down to look at the glory of the place,
                                                                            35
when Brn. Fitch and Stockman, who had preached the gospel of the kingdom, and whom God had laid in the grave to save them, came up to us and asked us what we had passed through while they were sleeping. We tried to call up our greatest trials, but they looked so small compared with the far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory that surrounded us, that we could not speak them out, and we all cried out, Alleluia! heaven is cheap enough, and we touched our golden harps and made heaven's arches ring. {2SG 34.1}

Like Christ in Character.--The seal of the living God will be placed upon those only who bear a likeness to Christ in character (RH May 21, 1895). {7BC 970.3}

Calamities Coming on Cities--The outlook in our world is indeed alarming. God is withdrawing His Spirit from the wicked cities, which have become as the cities of the antediluvian world, and as Sodom and Gomorrah. The inhabitants of these cities have been tested and tried. We have reached a time when God is about to punish the presumptuous wrongdoers who refuse to keep His commandments and [who] disregard His messages of warning. . . . {10MR 220.1}

Prepare for an Overwhelming Surprise.-- Transgression has almost reached its limit. Confusion fills the world, and a great terror is soon to come upon human beings. The end is very near. God's people should be preparing for what is to break upon the world as an overwhelming surprise. {CG 555.2}A

 1-3 (ch. 16:13-16; see EGW on ch. 5:11; Eph. 4:30). Probationary Time Running Out.--Already kingdom is rising against kingdom. There is not now a determined engagement. As yet the four winds are held until the servants of God shall be sealed in their foreheads. Then the powers of earth will marshal their forces for the last great battle. How carefully we should improve the little remaining period of our probation (RH Nov. 27, 1900)! {7BC 968.10}

     Just before we entered it [the time of trouble], we all received the seal of the living God. Then I saw the four angels cease to hold the four winds. And I saw famine, pestilence and sword, nation rose against nation, and the whole world was in confusion (Day-Star, March 14, 1846). {7BC 968.11}

     Everything in the world is in an unsettled state. The nations are angry, and great preparations for war are being made. Nation is plotting against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. The great day of God is hasting greatly. But although the nations are mustering their forces for war and bloodshed, the command to the angels is still in force, that they hold the four winds until the servants of God are sealed in their foreheads (RH Jan. 28, 1909). {7BC 968.12}

Natural Traits Must Be Transformed.--How few bear in mind that the tempter was once a covering cherub, a being whom God created for His own name's glory. Satan fell from his high position through self-exaltation; he misused the high capabilities with which God had so richly endowed him. He fell for the same reason that thousands are falling today, because of an ambition to be first, an unwillingness to be under restraint. The Lord would teach man the lesson that, though united in church capacity, he is not saved until the seal of God is placed upon him. . . . {7BC 969.3}

     The Lord has a work for us all to do. And if the truth is not rooted in the heart, if the natural traits of character are not transformed by the Holy Spirit, we can never be colaborers with Jesus Christ. Self will constantly appear, and the character of Christ will not be manifested in our lives (Letter 80, 1898). {7BC 969.4}

     Without Spot or Wrinkle.--Missionary agencies are greatly needed in every branch of God's work. Our institutions need converted, devoted men, who will make the Lord their dependence. God will reveal through such workers the power of His grace. His servants are to be distinguished from the world by the seal of the living God; their words and their works are to reveal that they are laborers together with God. {7BC 969.5}

     God can use the human agent just to the extent that he will be worked by the Holy Spirit. To men who accept positions of responsibility as presidents, ministers, physicians, or workers in any line, I am bidden to say: God will test every man who enters His service. He does not ask, Do they possess learning and eloquence? Have they ability to command and control and manage? He asks, Will they represent My character? Will they walk in humility, that I may teach them My way? The soul temple must not be defiled by any loose or unclean practice. Those whom I will acknowledge in the courts of heaven must be without spot and wrinkl

The Mark of Distinction.--Those who would have the seal of God in their foreheads must keep the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. This is what distinguishes them from the disloyal, who have accepted a man-made institution in the place of the true Sabbath. The observance of God's rest day is the mark of distinction between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him not (MS 27, 1899). {7BC 970.2}

Like Christ in Character.--The seal of the living God will be placed upon those only who bear a likeness to Christ in character (RH May 21, 1895). {7BC 970.3}

Now is the time to prepare for the seal of God and the latter rain. I believe there is little time left.





















 





Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Donna H on February 20, 2010, 09:31:12 PM
Whew! That's a load of pressure off. Thank you. Thanks for all the info in your post Steve, I haven't read it yet, on my way to bed, but thanks.

Thanks for helping me work it out.

Donna
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Donna H on February 20, 2010, 09:33:10 PM
Jesus has said He would never leave us, nor would He forsake us.

Amen to that!
The contradictions have been solved.

 ;D
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Mimi on February 21, 2010, 05:47:36 AM
Whew! That's a load of pressure off. Thank you.

Donna

Donna, bless you! I believe most, if not all of us, have had that same reaction when we discovered the heart of God. The life we live "in Him" (constant abiding) is one of peace and great hope. It is a most joyous existence as we claim His promises to finish the work He has begun in our lives:

Hebrews 12:1  Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Hebrews 12:2  Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.


You may be interested in a little book that has brought such peace and hope to millions, that is "The Life of Victory" by Meade MacGuire. (This minister of the Gospel currently sleeps in the grave awaiting the resurrection and the reward he will surely receive.) I have it in pdf form and will e-mail it to you should you want a copy of it. It isn't long yet it is packed with practical Christianity that is Biblical through and through. Here is the table of contents to give you an idea of the topics covered:

The Life of Victory – Mead Maguire

The Life of Victory

TABLE OF CONTENTS
Preface
The Awful Nature of Sin
How Can God Justify a Sinner?
How Can a Sinner Secure Justification?
Delivered by Death
Resurrection Life
Faith Makes It So
Right Action of the Will
The Closest Union
The Power Provided
The Laws of Death and Life
In Christ
The Law of Growth
Sanctification
Sent from God
Winning Souls
The Privilege and Necessity of Prayer
When, Where, and How to Pray
Abiding in Christ


Should you want it, it would be my great pleasure to send it to you. As a matter of fact, I recall posting some of this in another topic having to do with his chapter on The Right Action of the Will: http://remnant-online.com/smf/index.php?topic=9218.msg99460#msg99460  It will give you a sampling. 
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Steve Billiter on February 21, 2010, 06:04:45 AM
You are welcome Donna, I know its a lot to read but its well worth it. It is by no means exhaustive. One can also take the EGW Research Edition software and type in seal, sealed, and sealing, to get further information. Ezekiel 9 also draws good parallels to the sealing time.

The 2008 Comprehensive EGW research Edition software is only 19.99 at the ABC store and comes with extras such as books and articles by Adventist pioneers as well as a KJV Bible and 1828 Websters Dictionary.

Or go to the EGW site which also has excellent search capabilities. Just type in Ellen White to get to the official database.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Donna H on February 21, 2010, 08:54:31 AM

Should you want it, it would be my great pleasure to send it to you. As a matter of fact, I recall posting some of this in another topic having to do with his chapter on The Right Action of the Will: http://remnant-online.com/smf/index.php?topic=9218.msg99460#msg99460  It will give you a sampling. 

Yes I would love a copy of that Sybil. Do you have my email still? I am not able to access your profile to pm you.

Donna
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Mimi on February 21, 2010, 08:55:38 AM
I still have it and will send it now.  ;)
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on February 21, 2010, 10:45:41 AM
Thanks. Might still need some clarity.

My understanding was that at the end of probation the Holy Spirit will be removed from us and we will have to go it on our own. This terrifies me because I know my reliance on the Holy Spirit. Even when my character has been wholly conformed to Christ's, it won't be because of me, it will be because of Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I have died to self. The thought of being without the Spirit is my doom.

Amen!!  The pieces are fitting together nicely. From Genesis to Revelation, it fits! Keep up your studying. God is leading you. The power is Christ's, the effort is yours. When we measure the two, God's part is immeasurably large, your part is immeasurably small. :)  You have a free will to choose to come to Christ moment by moment. It is a great battle with self. As we cling to Christ, He will keep us with His mighty arm!!

Quote
So the idea of the removal of the Holy Spirit is being left with an utterly sinful and useless self to rely on to keep the commandments of God. It aint gonna happen that way.

Amen!!!  You are an encouragement to many long in the faith who have not caught on.

Quote
But it sounds like what your saying is that when probation ends, my total reliance on Christ and my new character will be sealed? The Holy Spirit that lives in me will continue to live in me? It will be sealed in me? It is those that have not learned these things and have not been changed who will be left to sin? And therefore death?

Amen!  Let us look for a moment at the reality of the seal. In the last days when the 144,000 are being formed and probation will close, the sealing is the settling into the truth so that one cannot be moved. This is an intelligent understanding of God's character, seeing His love for us, and having faith to trust Him with all that we are and all that we have. At that time, all can be removed from us and our faith in Him and His promises will carry us through whatever comes. The character has been formed and we choose to serve Him no matter what. Are we independent of Him? No!! If we have not His Spirit we are none of His. It is Christ not.

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on February 21, 2010, 04:17:29 PM
Thank you, Brother Ian, I understand what you are saying. I can't respond at the moment, but will be back to reply.  I need to consider if want to keep this in the IJ topic or move it to another topic. Your position has a bearing on the IJ, but it is really not specifically dealing with it. Thank you again for your patience with me. It is much appreciated. BTW, did you follow my reply to Sister Donna. She is a new Christian seeking a strong relationship with Christ. She is doing very well as she follows Jesus. She understands that her needs are met only in Christ. I know you will appreciate that. But, at the same time she understands the standard in the judgment is the law of God. Sometimes it is much easier for those who come with a mind free from bias of another teaching. 

Again, thank you for your patience. We will not leave your remarks unaddressed. I appreciate very much the opportunity to study with you!
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: ian rankin on April 19, 2010, 04:54:07 PM
Hi Richard,
What happened to this topic?
Ian
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on April 19, 2010, 08:12:06 PM
Brother Ian, I am so sorry. So much happened at the time of these posts. I have not been back to read of my promise. :(  Your points are good for discussion, but not in this topic. We are trying to keep to the issue of the IJ. Yes, your understanding has a bearing, but I think it would be be better in a thread more pointed to your remarks. I will go search and find an appropriate home for it, tonight! :)
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on April 19, 2010, 08:26:51 PM
Brother Ian, I have moved your post to the The Hebrew Sanctuary (http://remnant-online.com/smf/index.php?topic=754.0) thread. Let us continue your ideas in that topic. Again, sorry to have taken so long to respond.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: RickH on February 19, 2012, 02:51:30 AM
Does the Thief on the Cross bypass the Investigative Judgement.. as since the Thief was given the promise and assurance that he would be in paradise by Christ himself. You also have to take in the fact that Christ did not ascend to heaven on that day so it was a promise to be fulfilled as some read the verse with the issue of the comma placement making it seem as if the thief was going immediately on that day to heaven. So here is the verse in question....

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Vicki on February 19, 2012, 08:00:31 AM
Jesus was rewarding the thief's confession, his belief, in Christ. The thief could have turned again to his old ways and cursed God and the promise could not have been fulfilled. But, he held fast to his faith and held to the assurance that he will be in paradise with Jesus when Jesus comes in the clouds and resurrects the righteous dead. The thief goes through the Investigative Judgment just like all the dead and the living, we just know the outcome of his case.

     "To Jesus in His agony on the cross there came one gleam of comfort. It was the prayer of the penitent thief.... This man was not a hardened criminal; he had been led astray by evil associations.... He had seen and heard Jesus, and had been convicted by His teaching, but he had been turned away from Him by the priests and rulers. Seeking to stifle conviction, he had plunged deeper and deeper into sin, until he was arrested, tried as a criminal, and condemned to die on the cross.
     "In the judgment hall and on the way to Calvary he had been in company with Jesus. He had heard Pilate declare, “I find no fault in Him” (John 19:4). He had marked His godlike bearing, and His pitying forgiveness of His tormentors.... The conviction comes back to him that this is the Christ. Turning to his fellow criminal he says, “Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?” The dying thieves have no longer anything to fear from man. But upon one of them presses the conviction that there is a God to fear, a future to cause him to tremble. And now, all sin-polluted as it is, his life history is about to close....
     "When condemned for his crime, the thief had become hopeless and despairing; but strange, tender thoughts now spring up. He calls to mind all he has heard of Jesus.... The Holy Spirit illuminates his mind, and little by little the chain of evidence is joined together. In Jesus, bruised, mocked, and hanging upon the cross, he sees the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world. Hope is mingled with anguish in his voice as the helpless, dying soul casts himself upon a dying Saviour. “Lord, remember me,” he cries, “when Thou comest into Thy kingdom.”
     "Quickly the answer came. Soft and melodious the tone, full of love, compassion, and power the words: Verily I say unto thee today, Thou shalt be with Me in paradise.... To the penitent thief came the perfect peace of acceptance with God. The Desire of Ages, 749-751". - Conflict and Courage, 326.2

Doesn't Jesus give the same response to any repentant sinner?

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: colporteur on February 19, 2012, 08:28:29 AM
Not at all. The IJ is not for Christ. He already knows the outcome of the judgment.

In other words, Christ did not need to wait for the judgment in order to know the outcome. He could have revealed the outcome of every person who would ever live on planet earth. People put God in a box when they think we does not know the future.

As has been mentioned, it was also a promise based off of the condition of the thief's repentance.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Mimi on February 19, 2012, 08:32:10 AM
Quote
Does the Thief on the Cross bypass the Investigative Judgement..
You must be contending with some who have no belief in the IJ. Typically a Seventh-day Adventist does not get asked such a question - SDA to SDA.

What about Enoch, Moses and Elijah? How is their situation different from the thief on the cross? Did they bypass it as well? They are in heaven and were, long before the IJ began for the dead. God knows what He is doing. If we are found faithful, in heaven we can discover His answers to these questions that cause speculation on earth.   

Maybe we could ask this question: Who is the judge and advocate in the IJ? Jesus. It appears the thief on the cross personally appeared at the judgment bar earlier than others, face to face with the Judge, both on crosses and both condemned to die.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: RickH on February 19, 2012, 10:52:59 AM
 Yes, that is exactly my thoughts on Enoch, Moses and Elijah, are they confirmed already. Can Christ bring to the IJ a special case, I would like to hear everyones input as it does raise some interesting questions....
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Mimi on February 19, 2012, 10:59:43 AM
Apparently He did. They are in heaven. Consider the multitude also raised at the resurrection who now reside in heaven. If they were not fit for heaven, they would not be there. I believe these are called the first fruits.

But those who came forth from the grave at Christ's resurrection were raised to everlasting life. They ascended with Him as trophies of His victory over death and the grave. These, said Christ, are no longer the captives of Satan; I have redeemed them. I have brought them from the grave as the first fruits of My power, to be with Me where I am, nevermore to see death or experience sorrow.  {DA 786.2} 

Do you expect He would undo what He already decided?

Guess I am not getting your point on this question unless you wish to argue the validity of the IJ.   
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: RickH on February 19, 2012, 12:32:21 PM
Apparently He did. They are in heaven. Consider the multitude also raised at the resurrection who now reside in heaven. If they were not fit for heaven, they would not be there. I believe these are called the first fruits.

But those who came forth from the grave at Christ's resurrection were raised to everlasting life. They ascended with Him as trophies of His victory over death and the grave. These, said Christ, are no longer the captives of Satan; I have redeemed them. I have brought them from the grave as the first fruits of My power, to be with Me where I am, nevermore to see death or experience sorrow.  {DA 786.2} 

Do you expect He would undo what He already decided?

Guess I am not getting your point on this question unless you wish to argue the validity of the IJ.
Well the thief has been given, ahead of the IJ, assurance of salvation. My question was did he somehow bypass the IJ or do we have someone who has a explanation, I have one but I want others input so we can compare and all be blessed........
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Won Bae on February 19, 2012, 01:01:06 PM
Rick H,

Do you know the purpose of the Investigative Judgement?  It realy means "investigation", the purpose is not to decide if a person is fit to be saved.  There is a good book about this.  The is called "The Case for the Investigative Judgment" by Marvin Moore who is the editor of the Signs of the Times.  I highly recommend this book to any one who is interested clarifying the purpose of the Investigative Judgment.

Won
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Mimi on February 19, 2012, 01:08:29 PM
What is your explanation, Rick? I'd like to hear it.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Vicki on February 19, 2012, 01:17:38 PM
     The perishing sinner may say: “I am a lost sinner; but Christ came to seek and to save that which was lost. He says, ‘I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance’ (Mark 2:17). I am a sinner, and he died upon Calvary’s cross to save me. I need not remain a moment longer unsaved. He died and rose again for my justification, and he will save me now. I accept the forgiveness he has promised.”—“Justified by Faith” (a pamphlet published in 1893), p. 7. Reprinted in Selected Messages 1:392.

The thief on the cross was a repentant sinner who was blessed to be able to hear Jesus tell him he would be in Christ's kingdom. We are all saved the same way; we "need not remain a moment longer unsaved."

If we are saved then we have no need to fear the outcome of the IJ. I see no reason to think the thief won't go through the actual IJ just like the rest of us. The thief is awaiting resurrection morning. He had his faith secure in Christ's righteousness. When his name comes up in the IJ who can refute Jesus that the man is worthy of eternal life?  Jesus is able to bare the man's heart to all who are concerned about him in the IJ.

I've been a little confused about what your actual questions have been. I hope my answer is to the point.  ???

   
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Vicki on February 19, 2012, 01:18:08 PM
I second Sybil's last post.  :)
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on February 21, 2012, 10:40:57 PM
Every person who has professed to serve God will be judged in the IJ.  As cp said, God already knows the end of each case. The dead will not know the results until they come forth from the grave. The living who are translated have the assurance of salvation, but they know not that probation has closed. It is not a matter of the thief knowing he would be in heaven. That has nothing to do with the IJ. The IJ proves that God's judgment is just.  The books are opened and the deeds of all who have professed faith will be compared to the law of God. Thus, all who will be in heaven will be seen to be worthy to be there. This flies in the face of what most believe. It is very sad that such an important doctrine has been so successfully perverted in the minds of so many. 

Rick, we have a number of threads that already deal with the IJ.  Unless there is something important that you are trying to bring out, these messages will be merged with an existing thread where the IJ is discussed.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Glen on February 22, 2012, 04:25:49 AM
...these messages will be merged with an existing thread where the IJ is discussed.

I did a search but couldn't find the "existing thread where the IJ is discussed, other than this one." -Could you send me a link, or direction where I may find it? Thanks
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Mimi on February 22, 2012, 05:45:12 AM
Hi, Glen. That topic is in the Bread of Life board. I am merging them.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: RickH on February 22, 2012, 06:27:59 AM
Every person who has professed to serve God will be judged in the IJ.  As cp said, God already knows the end of each case. The dead will not know the results until they come forth from the grave. The living who are translated have the assurance of salvation, but they know not that probation has closed. It is not a matter of the thief knowing he would be in heaven. That has nothing to do with the IJ. The IJ proves that God's judgment is just.  The books are opened and the deeds of all who have professed faith will be compared to the law of God. Thus, all who will be in heaven will be seen to be worthy to be there. This flies in the face of what most believe. It is very sad that such an important doctrine has been so successfully perverted in the minds of so many. 

Rick, we have a number of threads that already deal with the IJ.  Unless there is something important that you are trying to bring out, these messages will be merged with an existing thread where the IJ is discussed.
That is fine, and the explanation you gave is right on point. Jesus is the great I AM, the almighty Jehovah, the First and Last, and so He knew the end from the begining when He gave the assurance to the thief. But also it was given to us by Christ I feel, as a example of what happens when we in faith accept Christ's righteousness, we too can have everlasting life as promised to the thief. Here is a great explanation that I liked...

"Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 10:32

The thief on the cross did this.

"And straightway he preached Christ...that he is the Son of God." Acts 9:20 (speaking of Paul, right after he had his sight restored)

The thief on the cross did this.

"But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved" Acts 15:11

The thief on the cross did this (believed in Jesus).

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" Ephesians 2:8

The thief did this (he acted on his faith & accepted the gift).

The IJ will show that the thief on the cross had fruit. '
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on February 22, 2012, 06:47:23 AM
Amen! But, now we must go a bit further as we have done in this topic in previous posts. How is it that the IJ will show the thief had fruit?  It seems that you understand, but so many have been deceived in regards to the truth that we need to spell it out.  What happens in the IJ that proves to the universe that the thief was in fact a true believer?
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Glen on February 22, 2012, 06:53:39 AM
I'm trying to put into words something I've wondered about for some time; please excuse my feeble attempt, here. I'm still working on this. I haven't heard this from anyone else. I want to know your opinion whether I'm “clear off base” in my thinking.

I appreciate the insights EGW gives in describing the Investigative Judgement, and in no way desire to belittle what she has shared. I understand that she describes seeing the Temple in Heaven as a physical building. I am appalled whenever I hear someone claiming that there is no Heavenly Sanctuary.

I think of the Tabernacle in the wilderness wanderings of the Israelites, as well as Solomon's Temple, as “sandbox” examples of the Heavenly; simple physical illustrations of Spiritual Truth as it is in God, manifested to humanity through Jesus in His ministry upon the earth, as the Lamb, and in Heaven.

Any "work" that man does, with our without divine power, is "weighed in the balances" Daniel 5:27, measured by God's Standard of Love, Truth as it is in His sight; His own character.

I've wondered for some time about the following Bible Text, and think that perhaps in the “Big Picture”, God is in Christ, and Christ is in God, reconciling penitent humanity. I see the Heavenly Pattern of the earthly Sanctuary fulfilled in Them, and through the doctrine of Christ, in Believers as they  “work out (their) own salvation with fear and trembling. Phillipians 2:12

I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. Revelation 21:22

While I understand that the above Bible verse is in the context of the New Jerusalem as it stands on the New Earth, AFTER sin has been eradicated forever, I'm wondering whether, perhaps, God the Son and God the Father are even now the Temple in Heaven; Holy Place and Most Holy Place, respectively. Christ's “entering” the Most Holy Place in His ministry for the penitent, perhaps described in the following: that we walk in Christ, in God the Father by faith, as the Substance, before we are physically resurrected from the dead, or are translated at His Second Coming:

Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: Colossians 1:13

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: Ephesians 2:6

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Revelation 3:21

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. John 15:10

...He that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please Him. John 8:29

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matthew 5:48

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. John 17:20-23

For it became Him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of One: for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brethren, Hebrews 2:10, 11

...He will raise them up as a part of Himself. Manuscript Releases Volume Twenty-one 347.04
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on February 22, 2012, 10:43:37 AM
The Bible doctrine that states we may become partakers of His divine nature is important. How does this happen? It happens when we die to self and allow Christ to come in. What does this mean? Jesus said, "abide in me and I in you."  We are to be reconciled to God. If we have Christ, we have life. If we do not have Christ, we do not have life. Those who go into the grave with Christ in them, the hope of glory, "He will raise them up as a part of Himself."  When we give up resisting His love, His drawing, He comes to abide in us. How? Through the agency of the Holy Spirit, the third person of the godhead. If we have His Spirit abiding in us, we have life because we have Him, His Spirit.  "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Romans  8:9.

When we are reconciled to God  it is through the Holy Spirit. This is how Christ is in us. Jesus and our heavenly Father are one in Spirit and one in purpose. They are united. But, they are distinct personalities. They both moved into the Most Holy  Place in 1844, a physical temple in heaven that the earthly temples were pattered after. Today, in heaven is a physical temple in which the investigative judgment is taking place. Glen, I cannot explain the verse that states "I saw no temple therein:"  I have wondered about it.

"Mount Zion was just before us, and on the mount was a glorious temple, and about it were seven other mountains, on which grew roses and lilies. And I saw the little ones climb, or, if they chose, use their little wings and fly to the top of the mountains, and pluck the never-fading flowers. There were all kinds of trees around the temple to beautify the place; the box, the pine, the fir, the oil, the myrtle, the pomegranate, and the fig-tree bowed down with the weight of its timely figs,--these made the place all over glorious. And as we were about to enter the holy temple, Jesus raised His lovely voice and said, "Only the 144,000 enter this place," and we shouted, "Alleluia." CET 63.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Mimi on February 22, 2012, 11:24:05 AM
I have contemplated "no temple" as well; however, Inspiration says this:

NO TEMPLE, BUT FACE-TO-FACE COMMUNION.—“I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.” Revelation 21:22. The people of God are privileged to hold open communion with the Father and the Son. “Now we see through a glass, darkly.” 1 Corinthians 13:12. We behold the image of God reflected, as in a mirror, in the works of nature and in His dealings with men; but then we shall see Him face to face, without a dimming veil between. We shall stand in His presence and behold the glory of His countenance.—GC 676, 677. 

As for the heavenly sanctuary and it not being in sight, (that is if the temple and the sanctuary are considered the same), in heaven--after sin and death are no more--what is the need of the physical sanctuary, the two apartments, the furniture, laver and altar? the Investigative Judgment is ended, the redeemed are with the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit. Was it not seen because it is no longer housing the symbols of the pathway to righteousness represented by Christ Jesus? I need to study this much further. These are questions I have not before thoroughly probed.

And could "the holy temple" at the end of Richard's post, represent the throne of God?
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: billy on March 31, 2012, 06:35:19 AM
Hi, when was the last time you heard a Sabbath sermon on the IJ? I don't think I have ever heard one. Maybe it does get preached and I have been away that Sabbath when it happened. But I doubt it. Do not think for one moment I have come here to dismantle anyones belief in the IJ, far from it. We do live in a so called free world and if a person wants to believe in the IJ then well and good.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on March 31, 2012, 09:33:56 AM
Good morning, Billy.  You are so very correct. Few have ever heard a sermon on the "investigative judgment". Why do you think this to be the case?
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Wally on March 31, 2012, 03:12:21 PM
Hi, when was the last time you heard a Sabbath sermon on the IJ? I don't think I have ever heard one. Maybe it does get preached and I have been away that Sabbath when it happened. But I doubt it. Do not think for one moment I have come here to dismantle anyones belief in the IJ, far from it. We do live in a so called free world and if a person wants to believe in the IJ then well and good.

You make some good points, Billy.  It just so happens that our pastor preached about it the last two times he was here.  And last year, I included it in my "Pillars of the Faith" series.  But, in general one doesn't hear many sermons about it.  I'm afraid too many Adventists aren't too clear on it and others are embarrassed by it.  But, as Cliff Goldstein thinks it's easier to prove the IJ from Scripture than it is the Sabbath.  That's a pretty strong statement and shows how solid the doctrine is.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: colporteur on March 31, 2012, 06:47:19 PM
I think another reason why we do not hear as many sermons on this as we might is because human nature would prefer to believe that the road to heaven is wide and many there be that go in. Throw out the biblical truth about the investigative  judgment and one can pretend for a time to have salvation through profession without any necessary change in one's character. Without the IJ  all doctrine is rendered as of little importance. This is the direction that all of Babylon has done. This is also the direction that Laodicea has gone within much of the SDA church. There is so much freedom in Laodicea that one can even reject the core doctrines of the church and still remain a member of a church one does not believe in. A faithful few will never give up this teaching of Christ ( the IJ) because it is true and it is reality.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Mimi on March 31, 2012, 07:51:39 PM
Hi, when was the last time you heard a Sabbath sermon on the IJ? I don't think I have ever heard one. Maybe it does get preached and I have been away that Sabbath when it happened. But I doubt it. Do not think for one moment I have come here to dismantle anyones belief in the IJ, far from it. We do live in a so called free world and if a person wants to believe in the IJ then well and good.

I guess one could ask, "Would God have us believe in it?" He set up the system.  ???
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: billy on March 31, 2012, 09:48:12 PM
"Good morning, Billy.  You are so very correct. Few have ever heard a sermon on the "investigative judgment". Why do you think this to be the case?"
I guess it is because most ministers and church members do not believe in it.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: billy on April 01, 2012, 05:06:29 AM
From my observance over the few short years of my life it is very apparent that very few people in Australia believe in the IJ. Probably there is a good reason why this is so. When EGW is taken away from the IJ it is very hard to show that it is Biblical. At least that is what we are told. When a person who believes in the IJ and are asked to show where it is in the Bible the response is very weak. So I am guessing as it cannot be shown as conclusive from the Bible most just shy away from it. We have GC visitors come out and they never preach on it. When Camp is on and the guest speakers give their talks it is never mentioned. I can only assume that it has been put on the back burner.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Mimi on April 01, 2012, 06:20:23 AM
Hardly, billy. The investigative judgment is as Biblical as the state of the dead, the Sabbath, an end-time prophet, and even a visible second coming. It is not difficult to discover in Scripture. We are in the thick of it at this very moment. Deny its existence and the Three Angels Messages fall flat - "the hour of His judgment IS come." Deny it again and heaven would be full of sinners through what is known as universal salvation because "God is so loving" that He dare not destroy the very thing that disturbed heaven's peace - sin. It's hogwash. From Genesis to Revelation Scripture is one huge instruction book on overcoming through the power of Christ Jesus. 

The problem is not whether the event of the investigative judgment is Biblical, it is, through Scripture alone. It is the brand of gospel preached these days that is set up to destroy most salvational doctrines upon which our end-time movement was based. Are we saved in our sins or from our sins? Many teach the former as not to offend the Laodicean sitting in the pew. Unbelief is rampant in certain segments of the church because the gospel once delivered to the saints has gone as soft as what the evangelicals preach in many Sunday churches. To deal with the sin problem is a subject many are shying away from because it is the straight testimony many do not want to hear, much less accept, and the shaking is the result.

So, take all of that away, which a false gospel does, and it is no wonder our people can be led to believe something else - at least those who refuse to study for themselves.

You said:
Quote
Do not think for one moment I have come here to dismantle anyones belief in the IJ, far from it.

You do not have the power to do that anyway, so my question is: What is your purpose for bringing up this subject? To give us a report that many do not believe in it? We already know that.

What is it that you really want us to know? We are fair-minded people.  Bottom-line it for us, billy.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: colporteur on April 01, 2012, 06:59:07 AM
Billy;

You are using phrases such as " I assume" ,"we are told" "from my observance.... few people in Australia believe",  "probably there is a good reason why this is so", and  "I am guessing".

To "assume" anything is dangerous when it comes to salvation. Because "we are told" is much the same as "I assume." We are told many things in the church. Isa. 8:20 applies here. You are observing people not Scripture. Making the arm of flesh your support is disastrous. You are right though in that there is good reason why the IJ is placed on a back burner in much of the church. It is the condition of the last church that Revelation speaks about. The overall tone of the church is Laodicean. The Laodicean people in the church are unconverted and they are many. The unconverted are not willing to die to self, to surrender their hearts and lives and be changed. Therefore they create their own false ideas about the judgment that will wishfully place them in heaven while treading their own path. The problem is that this is fantasy and when they wake up it will be too late, eternally too late. I refuse to lie to myself. Either I surrender and am changed into Christ's likeness or else I will be lost. At least I am dealing with reality. As long as people fool themselves into thinking there is no judgment they will naturally take the low road and sin abounds in their lives. Australia is a very poor country to use as an example. Not to be bias the USA is not alot different.
   If numbers and majority ever prove anything on this earth it is that they are wrong. Remember what happened to the numbers at the time of the flood. Noah was grossly outnumbered by supposedly, intelligent, religious, thought leaders of the day. The masses thought they were safe and that there was no judgment. They changed their minds about the judgment, after probation closed, and then they drowned. The Bible says, " But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." Matthew 24:37. The only time you can trust the majority, Billy, is in heaven. Until then, that is the wrong side to be on,....unfortunately.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: colporteur on April 01, 2012, 07:26:12 AM
The Investigative Judgment is something me must prove or disprove in our own minds from Scripture. If we do not believe a core doctrine and one of the 28 fundamental beliefs of the SDA church then we are in the wrong church and the honest thing to do is to find the correct church.

It is not popular to preach against sin. It never has been. You will find in many of our churches a whole host of things that are not preached on. While we should never lean on men as an ultimate answer to a question I recommend for starters listening to Steve Bohr, Ivor Myers, and Dwayne Lemon.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on April 01, 2012, 07:58:20 AM
Good morning, Billy.  You are so very correct. Few have ever heard a sermon on the "investigative judgment". Why do you think this to be the case?


I guess it is because most ministers and church members do not believe in it.

Yes, Billy, in Australia, Western Europe, and throughout the North American Division, we find many in the church who do not believe in it as it is written. To most in these areas of the world, it contradicts their understanding of the gospel.

From my observance over the few short years of my life it is very apparent that very few people in Australia believe in the IJ. Probably there is a good reason why this is so. When EGW is taken away from the IJ it is very hard to show that it is Biblical. At least that is what we are told. When a person who believes in the IJ and are asked to show where it is in the Bible the response is very weak. So I am guessing as it cannot be shown as conclusive from the Bible most just shy away from it. We have GC visitors come out and they never preach on it. When Camp is on and the guest speakers give their talks it is never mentioned. I can only assume that it has been put on the back burner.

G'day, billy! Since you have only experienced a "few short years", you are relatively innocent in regards to your lack of understanding. Like the Apostle Paul before he knew the truth, you have believed  your teachers. You have been taught by the ministers in Australia what you believe. Not all ministers  in Australia have been deceived. Some are truly converted and know the truth. And, there are some like Paul who are going to accept the truth and be a part of finishing the  work.

You say that "When EGW is taken away from the IJ it is very hard to show that it is Biblical." Then you and many others must not believe what she says about the IJ?  And if you do not believe what she says about the  IJ, then you  must throw away all of her writings? This ought to be a warning to you, Billie.  Have you rejected the Spirit of Prophecy? Many have.

Generally, we do not carry on such a discussion in a public forum, but the truth that you speak needs to be read by many in the church. It is a revelation of what many ministers are teaching. The Spirit of Prophecy is in harmony with  Scripture, it is the  false teachers that are misusing the Bible in their objections to the  IJ.  Share where you see our teaching of the IJ as being wrong.  Have you  read all that I have posted in this topic? If so, you will find that most, if not all, is from Scripture. Where did I err?
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: billy on April 01, 2012, 06:20:47 PM
"the hour of His judgment IS come." (Sybil)

Who did John write the to? It was written to those in the first century. When John wrote those words he was talking to the people right there and then. Sure prophecy can have more than application but thye main one was to the people right there.

All the so called signs that we see around us are not really signs at all. Jesus said that Himself. There is only one sign and that is when the gospel is preached to the whole world the end will come. Not when the IJ, the State of the Dead, the Sabbath and all these are very important but it is when the Gospel is preached to the whole world.

The issue is not the IJ or any other doctrine but the Gospel.

As SDA's we have got so confused as to what the Gospel is. As a Church we have always wanted to add to the Gospel. We want to do something so we become accepted when Jesus says "come....", nothing more, nothing less, come as we are.


Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on April 01, 2012, 07:09:25 PM
Billy, you have not addressed the subject. Have you read all that I have posted from Scripture in this topic? If so, where did I err? What is not Biblical?
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Wally on April 02, 2012, 03:20:31 AM
Billy, within the 3 angels' messages is contained the "everlasting gospel," which includes the "hour of judgment."  When taken in its context (read chapt. 13 & 14) that statement can only refer to a judgment near the end of time.  In addition, the idea that "Babylon is fallen," would make no sense if it referred to an event in the first century.  Babylon had fallen centuries before the time of John.  So, one must look for a prophetic and symbolic meaning to these messages.  I believe the SDA Church has articulated that meaning quite well.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: billy on April 02, 2012, 10:59:21 AM
I have not read all the posts here on the IJ as my time is somewhat limited. There are going to be a lot brighter and wiser people than you or I discuss this subject. This subject seemed to jump up off the screen as I was browsing through the topics. I am not on a crusade to dismantle it or promote it. I was just stating what the facts are in Australia. The IJ is seldom if ever preached. It does not even seem to be an issue here. I get the opinion that the church members could not be bothered in making it an issue.  I have no idea what is taught at Avondale College about it. The few people that do talk about the IJ are a group that follow Standish and co with their very conservative legalistic view of the gospel. I am not sure if you know of them but in short they believe that Christ had a sinful nature, just like our own, that to be saved we must overcome exactly like Christ did, that we will stop sinning completely, the writings of EGW are placed as being equal with the Bible etc.  There are probably a few other beliefs as well but they do not come to mind just now. 
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on April 02, 2012, 11:21:38 AM
Thank you, billie.  From what I have seen in Australia, you are right. Not all ministers are opposed to the Spirit of Prophecy and not all are opposed to the Investigative Judgment. I know the topic is long, but since this is an interest to you, you will be blessed to read through it.  As I said, I believe that most posts are based on Scripture.

But, let's stay on topic and we will take a look at what the Bible says about judgment, specifically the IJ. Many have been deceived by the fallen churches false "gospel".

Seventh-day Adventists believe, and always have, that in 1844, Jesus entered into a work of judgment. You know these verses if you are a Bible student and have been baptised and are a Seventh-day Adventist. 

  14:6   And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 
  14:7   Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 
  14:8   And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 
  14:9   And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 
  14:10   The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 
  14:11   And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 
  14:12   Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 

This is present truth for today.  And, the message begins with the need to proclaim the gospel and the message "Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come." Some want to teach that God is being judged, but that is not what the Bible means and that is not what Seventh-day Adventists teach and always have.  Yes, there are some that have changed the message, and yes, we see many in  Australia. But, that is not the correct message.

Where do we get more information about this "judgment"? It is throughout the Bible, but let's begin with Daniel.  "I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels [as] burning fire.   A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened." Dan. 7:9, 10. 

Here we read that "the judgment was set".   I guess you may want to say that this is a judgment to judge God, as some others teach, but that it not true and there is nothing in Scripture to suggest that God is on trial here. No, the one being tried is never found sitting on a throne. God is not the one being judged, for He is sitting on His throne. Now, notice what else is seen. When there is a trial, there is testimony presented so that the judgment can be fair. In this judgment we find that there are "books" and "the books were opened".  Why do you think the books are opened, billie? And, what do you think is in the books? Do we find any mention in Scripture of books being in heaven? I am interested in your thoughts on this judgement where God is the judge and the books in heaven are opened. You want to study from Scripture, here we are. What is going on here with these books opened before God? Someone is going to be judged, billie. Who is it?
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Immanuel on April 02, 2012, 01:17:00 PM
Hi Billy,

You are right that many people get confused about what the gospel is. I am glad the Bible clarifies. In Rev. 14:6 the angel has the everlasting gospel to preach. That sounds like the most important message - everlasting good news! What is it that the angel is preaching? That judgment has come. Therefore, according to Scripture, judgment is an integral part of the gospel!
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: colporteur on April 02, 2012, 08:44:44 PM
What the Standish brothers teach/taught is only legalistic to those who wish to live like the world.  I have found it ironic how many compromised SDAs that oppose Hartland and the Standish brothers at the same time have admitted that many of the best evangelists have come out of Hartland College over the years. By their fruit ye shall know them. Many say that "yes Jesus took our nature , no He did not take our nature" and "yes He is our pattern, no He is not our pattern." Which is it ? There is another word for that kind of confusion. Many struggle to understand that Jesus had two natures, one that ruled and one that did not. This is just what those translated will have. Those who are left will have a fallen nature that rules and the divine nature they will have rejected.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: billy on April 03, 2012, 03:34:53 AM
"Do not think for one moment I have come here to dismantle anyone’s belief in the IJ, far from it...."

I stand by what I said, it is not my intent to dismantle the IJ in any way shape or form. As I have said, no one in Australia preaches it. It is a topic that is here and I seen it in passing. I do not mind having a talk about it but am not interested in getting into it to argue about the IJ until the cows come home.

I do not want anyone to think it is what I dream about night and day and want to convince all and sundry that there is no IJ.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Dorine on April 03, 2012, 05:49:04 AM
Billy, what do YOU believe? It appears that you are sitting on the fence leaning toward what "man" thinks and not what the Bible teaches. I'm sure this is not your intend but that is the perception I am getting.

Those you meet on TRO are not looking for arguments. It is everyone's deep desire to share Biblical truth and expose error. This may seem argumentative to those who are accepting the progressive teachings of "man".

Those that want to know God's will do not want to be left hanging or in confusion over a topic that is handled carelessly or indifferently as if there is no absolute truth. At least I don't and I appreciate the patience and loving, Christian concern and courtesy that has been granted to me on this forum. They have become my "online family". With you included. :)

Hang in there. We are happy to have you join us and I must say that this discussion has opened my eyes and caused me to dig deeper into God's Word for a clearer understanding on the subject of the Investigative Judgment.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Glen on April 03, 2012, 07:06:31 AM
...human nature would prefer to believe that the road to heaven is wide and many there be that go in. Throw out the biblical truth about the investigative  judgment and one can pretend for a time to have salvation through profession without any necessary change in one's character. Without the IJ  all doctrine is rendered as of little importance. This is the direction that all of Babylon has done. This is also the direction that Laodicea has gone within much of the SDA church. There is so much freedom in Laodicea that one can even reject the core doctrines of the church and still remain a member of a church one does not believe in. A faithful few will never give up this teaching of Christ ( the IJ) because it is true and it is reality.

The Investigative Judgement is basically all things compared with God's great Standard; His Character of Love. Jesus is God's Love personified, embodied; "...all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." Colossians 2:9 He is drawing humanity to Himself; inviting us to close communion with Him, to experience His own conception of truest fulfilling LOVE! This old garment of an Earth, along with everything in it that does not reflect His glory, His Character, will be destroyed on THAT DAY that He will do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act. Isaiah 28:21

If we will, we may stand today with Him testifying Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men! Psalm 107

Jesus saith...I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. John 10:1, 9. 10

...the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one... John 17:22, 23

For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Ephesians 5:30-32

...There are many who...do not know what it means to take God at his word. They have a religion of outward forms and observances. It is painful to see the unbelief that exists in the hearts of many of God's professed followers. We have the most precious truths ever committed to mortals, and the faith of those who have received these truths should correspond to their greatness and value. There are many who seem to feel that they have a great work to do themselves before they can come to Christ for his salvation. They seem to think that Jesus will come in at the very last of their struggle, and give them help by putting the finishing touch to their life-work. It seems difficult for them to understand that Christ is a complete Saviour, and able to save to the uttermost all that come unto God by him. They lose sight of the fact that Christ himself is "the way, the truth, and the life." When we individually rest upon Christ, with full assurance of faith, trusting alone to the efficacy of his blood to cleanse from all sin, we shall have peace in believing that what God has promised he is able to perform. As Christ represented the Father, so we are to represent Christ to the world. We cannot transfer our obligation to others. God desires to make known to you what is the richness of his glory, that you may preach the mystery of salvation to those around you,--Christ in you the hope of glory. Advent Review and Sabbath Herald 03-05-89.06

We may accurately conclude that Christ's Spirit, His character in  His Bride, the Church; is her only"legal" method which nerves her in this Great Controversy between Good and Evil. ( "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." Romans 5:10 “...redeeming the time.” Ephesians 5:16; Colossians 4:5) -thus making "herself ready" ; He is her only "...strength...and...portion for ever... her only "hope of glory."

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Revelation 3:21

Christ overcame and sits with His Father in his throne; and those who overcome as Christ overcame will He grant to sit with Him...with the Father.  -That's close unity!

The type of so-called "unity" that is represented by the woman leader in our local church who declared to me, "Well! Let's just agree to disagree, so we can have unity!";then went on to expound on how "we need to make our Church safe for the new-comer!"

The goal in our local church seems mainly to consist of look good (merely that we've "made a good confession", feel good, and let's just all praise the Lord! -Just let's don't talk about expecting that we can keep ALL of the Commandments All of the time, before Jesus comes again the second time; but, -let's just love everybody!

Dear Friends, the Plan of Redemption is for our complete restoration for the sole purpose that sin will not rise a second time in Heaven, or the new earth, forever! Christ took our Sin(s) to the cross to guarantee the true Believer that"...fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 ...that...our joy may be full."

We may revel and rest in the precious truth that as we take up our cross and deny self, daily, He dwells in our soul; Christ, with the Godhead dwelling in us, through His Spirit, is...the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. ! Colossians 2:11-15

So; let us humbly, gladly, let Him ...(make) a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it..."to day" Hebrews 3:15; 4:7, 9
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: colporteur on April 03, 2012, 07:07:47 AM
"Do not think for one moment I have come here to dismantle anyone’s belief in the IJ, far from it...."

I stand by what I said, it is not my intent to dismantle the IJ in any way shape or form. As I have said, no one in Australia preaches it. It is a topic that is here and I seen it in passing. I do not mind having a talk about it but am not interested in getting into it to argue about the IJ until the cows come home.

I do not want anyone to think it is what I dream about night and day and want to convince all and sundry that there is no IJ.


billy;

It is not true that no one in Australia preaches and teaches the IJ. It might seem like that to you but I know it is not a fact. Barbara O' Neil and institute preach and teach it. Others teach it.
   Our purpose here is not to argue but when we make statements that suggest that the IJ is an invention that is not biblical it is responsible that we show from the Bible why we think that to be so. In this fallen world, that a majority or higher numbers may not teach, preach, or believe something has never been evidence against such.  On the contrary it tends to work just the opposite. Though we do not base doctrine on popular vote, the truth is that unfortunately, consistently, all through the Bible the larger numbers have been wrong. So, if you are going to resort to looking at numbers as  evidence, you may realize that the belief that there is no IJ would be necessarily wrong.
    You have said that you do not spend a great deal of time on this subject. This is we can see. However, the fact that the topic drew your attention shows that you have strong "feelings" on the subject. You have made statements that could cast doubt in the minds of a few weaker brethren. I believe the responsible thing for you to do is to show why from the Bible you have taken this stance on an open forum or else admit that you have made statements and implications that are based only on feelings, assumptions and guess work.

I appreciate your ability to be polite.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on April 03, 2012, 08:10:48 AM
"the hour of His judgment IS come." (Sybil)

Who did John write the to? It was written to those in the first century. When John wrote those words he was talking to the people right there and then. Sure prophecy can have more than application but the main one was to the people right there.

All the so called signs that we see around us are not really signs at all. Jesus said that Himself. There is only one sign and that is when the gospel is preached to the whole world the end will come. Not when the IJ, the State of the Dead, the Sabbath and all these are very important but it is when the Gospel is preached to the whole world.

The issue is not the IJ or any other doctrine but the Gospel.

As SDA's we have got so confused as to what the Gospel is. As a Church we have always wanted to add to the Gospel. We want to do something so we become accepted when Jesus says "come....", nothing more, nothing less, come as we are.

billie, you are right, there is much confusion in certain areas of the world. Western Europe is in very bad shape. Australia is not doing well, and many in North America are not looking to Scripture as the foundation of their understanding. We must study for ourselves. The IJ is one area where the deception has been the greatest, and not without reason. The correct interpretation opens one's eyes to how deep the deceptions have run. If you will stay with us and prayerfully study this from Scripture, you will be blessed. As I said, I don't recall using Spirit of Prophecy in this entire topic. It is easily seen from the Bible. And, to be deceived as many are about the foundation of our faith, the gospel, is deadly. Jesus told the parable of the ten virgins. It is present truth today. If we do not have the Holy Spirit within, and manifest His fruits, then we are not ready for heaven. To many, this is heresy. They equate it with "works". This is the great lie that has taken over the fallen churches. Works can save no one, but it is by our works that we shall be judged. When Christ has possession of the heart, there is a radical change, we become partakers of His divine nature and as Paul says, we keep the body under. That is to say we keep the evil flesh under. When we let go of Jesus we have no power to keep anything under. Self rises up and the evil nature is seen in the life.  If we love Jesus supremely, then we will love our neighbor. We will break the last six of the commandments, nor will we break the first four. The law is a transcript of God's character. If we are His, we will be filled with love for Him and His children. Love, love, love that is expressed by many is not love at all. To break a commandment reveals a lack of love for both God and our neighbor. So, billie, the deception runs deep. The IJ will clear this up if you will stay with us and seek to understand it from Scripture.

We appreciate your willingness to discuss this important subject.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Glen on April 03, 2012, 01:36:53 PM
We will break the last six of the commandments, nor will we break the first four.

Brother Billy, Just a quick clarification, here, which the context of Brother Richard's comment reflects. -"We will" (NOT) "break the last six of the commandments, nor will we break the first four."
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Glen on April 03, 2012, 01:51:21 PM
The Investigative Judgement is basically all things compared with God's great Standard; His Character of Love. Jesus is God's Love personified, embodied; "...all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." Colossians 2:9

Perhaps the words "judged by contrast" would have fit better than the word "compared". Those within whom the Spirit of the Godhead dwells at End-Time, will be completely in harmony with Their purpose, as "this mind...which was also in Christ Jesus" Philippians 2:5  -dwells in them. "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin" 1 Peter 4:1
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on April 03, 2012, 06:24:25 PM
Thank you, Glen.  It is amazing how one can read their own writing and miss such a glaring omission! 
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: billy on April 04, 2012, 03:56:08 AM
"The Investigative Judgement is basically all things compared with God's great Standard; His Character of Love. Jesus is God's Love personified, embodied;” (Glen)

Glen

I am not trying to be rude, difficult to get on with, argumentative in any way shape or form.
But Glen, can you please in plain simple English tell me how and what you wrote in your reply has anything to do with the IJ?

This is where it makes things difficult. People will come out and attempt to explain the IJ but in doing so complicates the issue by going off on a Bible study that says nothing about the topic in question.

Take the Sabbath, so easy to see that it is Biblical, Take the Nature of Christ, we all know that Christ had the nature of Adam before the fall, State of the dead etc. I could go on and on and on and they are all Biblical.

Take the IJ and I am left treading water with nowhere to go. Look at the history of the IJ, dodgy at best

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Mimi on April 04, 2012, 04:04:46 AM
we all know that Christ had the nature of Adam before the fall ... I could go on and on and on and they are all Biblical.

I will leave your questions for Glen but wanted to address this one.

What is your opinion on this statement?

In the desolate wilderness, Christ was not in so favorable a position to endure the temptations of Satan as was Adam when he was tempted in Eden. The Son of God humbled Himself and took man's nature after the race had wandered four thousand years from Eden, and from their original state of purity and uprightness.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: billy on April 04, 2012, 04:18:18 AM
"If we love Jesus supremely, then we will love our neighbour. We will (NOT) break the last six of the commandments, nor will we break the first four"

Maybe I am wrong but I am going to assume that is what was meant to be written. If that is so then how many here are sinless? I am not, never have been and never will be this side of heaven. But I am in good company, Paul said he was chief of sinner after his conversion. This does have connotations for the IJ as it very simply says that we sin and sin and sin. 
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: billy on April 04, 2012, 04:30:41 AM
"What is your opinion on this statement?

In the desolate wilderness, Christ was not in so favourable a position to endure the temptations of Satan as was Adam when he was tempted in Eden. The Son of God humbled Himself and took man's nature after the race had wandered four thousand years from Eden, and from their original state of purity and uprightness" (Sybil)

My apologies for contaminating the topic with another issue. Most times it becomes very difficult to stay on track. Do you have a topic on the Nature of Christ?

I am not sure where the statement comes from, maybe EGW but I doubt if it is Biblical. The Bible is very clear that Christ was holy etc., certainly not what we are today or what they were 2,000 years ago. I could add a lot more but it will not help the IJ topic. If you do not have a topic on the Nature of Christ then it may be a good idea to start one up. Roy Adams wrote an excellent book on the subject and is sure it is available worldwide in our book centres.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Wally on April 04, 2012, 04:52:00 AM
"The enticements which Christ resisted were those that we find it so difficult to withstand. They were urged upon Him in as much greater degree as His character is superior to ours. . . .  Satan had pointed to Adam’s sin as proof that God’s law was unjust, and could not be obeyed. In our humanity, Christ was to redeem Adam’s failure. But when Adam was assailed by the tempter, none of the effects of sin were upon him. He stood in the strength of perfect manhood, possessing the full vigor of mind and body. He was surrounded with the glories of Eden, and was in daily communion with heavenly beings. It was not thus with Jesus when He entered the wilderness to cope with Satan. For four thousand years the race had been decreasing in physical strength, in mental power, and in moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate humanity. Only thus could He rescue man from the lowest depths of his degradation. {DA 117.1}
Many claim that it was impossible for Christ to be overcome by temptation. Then He could not have been placed in Adam’s position; He could not have gained the victory that Adam failed to gain. If we have in any sense a more trying conflict than had Christ, then He would not be able to succor us. But our Saviour took humanity, with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man, with the possibility of yielding to temptation."  The Desire of Ages, pp. 116, 117.

Does that answer your question, billy?
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: billy on April 04, 2012, 05:02:16 AM
Hi Wally

I now know where the quote comes from but that does not make it Biblical.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Mimi on April 04, 2012, 05:12:30 AM
Am sorry for you. No faith in God's end-time prophet.  :(
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: LindaRS on April 04, 2012, 05:28:30 AM
Hi Wally

I now know where the quote comes from but that does not make it Biblical.

But this one is biblical and very plain:

For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Hebrews 2:16
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: colporteur on April 04, 2012, 07:02:04 AM
Hi Wally

I now know where the quote comes from but that does not make it Biblical.

billy;

If it is not biblical then you are in the wrong church. Why?
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Glen on April 04, 2012, 07:24:55 AM
...I am not trying to be rude, difficult to get on with, argumentative in any way shape or form...

Oh?
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Mimi on April 04, 2012, 07:50:44 AM
Take the IJ and I am left treading water with nowhere to go. Look at the history of the IJ, dodgy at best

I am wondering how you can come to this conclusion, so I'll ask a question or two:

Have you studied the sanctuary services and the sanctuary itself instituted by God, the one the Children of Israel built in the wilderness?

Do you see a type in any of these? or understand the significance of the Day of Atonement for the people then and how it is seen that we are living in the antitypical Day of Atonement?
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on April 04, 2012, 10:36:47 AM
Good morning, billie.  You continue to talk about the truth regarding the IJ as being non-Biblical. But, there is a whole topic here that is Biblical that you may read if you want to know the Biblical support for the teaching. You say you do not have time, so I began to repost what is already here, just for your benefit. But, you have not responded.  After sharing with you some Bible statements, I asked you a few questions to see how you reconcile your false ideas with the Bible truth, but you have not responded. Are you interested in what the Bible says, or are you set in your ways on this and care not to examine the Bible truth? The IJ is a simple truth and it will not take long to see the truth from Scripture.

Why do you think the books are opened, billie? And, what do you think is in the books? Do we find any mention in Scripture of books being in heaven? I am interested in your thoughts on this judgement where God is the judge and the books in heaven are opened. You want to study from Scripture, here we are. What is going on here with these books opened before God? Someone is going to be judged, billie. Who is it?
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: billy on April 04, 2012, 11:48:56 AM
Sybil

"Am sorry for you. No faith in God's end-time prophet."

Not true at all, but EGW is not the Bible and she herself says so.

Richard

I will try and find some time to get back to you as soon as I can.

 
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Mimi on April 04, 2012, 01:06:53 PM
Sybil

"Am sorry for you. No faith in God's end-time prophet."

Not true at all, but EGW is not the Bible and she herself says so.

I know. I read her every day, but you contradict yourself, billy. You said you knew where the quote originated, saying it did not make it Biblical. You cannot have it both ways. Either you believe God's prophets to support the Bible or you don't.

I leave you, encouraging you to forget all you have been taught on the IJ, the nature of Christ, and begin again with the Bible and a study of the wilderness sanctuary service, what it pointed to, ending with type and antitype. That alone will give you exactly what you need to know about this subject.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: colporteur on April 04, 2012, 09:35:12 PM
This is true as Sybil stated. Either EGW was a true prophet or a false prophet. One cannot be half pregnant. If she is a true prophet then you either accept her biblical messages or you reject the Testimony of Jesus. If she is a false prophet then the entire foundation of the SDA church is cracked and you are in the wrong church. Mrs. White and the Bible harmonize on the Three Angel's Messages. The SDA church movement was raised up by God to deliver these messages. If the SDA church is giving a false message then it makes no sense for you to be associated with her. I can only conclude that either you are totally confused and unstudied, or that you are not SDA at all but posing as one in an attempt to undermine the truth.

     I'm going to bow out because I can see that you are having difficulty responding and the more of us that post the more difficult it maybe for you to answer.

Perhaps you could post something of substance about what the Bible says on this topic rather than what people in Australia say or do not say and what you think about the Testimony of Jesus. As long as we talk about opinions rather than substance it is assurance that nothing will be accomplished. What does the Bible mean when it says that after 2300 days the sanctuary would be cleansed and what is the meaning of Hebrews chapter 9:23-24 ?

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Glen on April 05, 2012, 06:24:50 AM
...Glen, can you please in plain simple English tell me how and what you wrote in your reply has anything to do with the IJ?

I don't claim to be a Bible scholar, so I don't have all the Bible texts to share with you. You must "seek...first the kingdom of God and His righteousness" for yourself, "as a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth."

I'm sure you must be acquainted with the fact that Adam and Eve were escorted OUT of the Garden of Eden because they sinned. Mankind aren't going to "get back in" to the Garden of Eden by continuing to do what Adam and Eve did that was the cause of their getting ousted from it. Also;  Why was there War in Heaven? Why were Satan and the fallen angels cast out of Heaven? -Wasn't it because of their disloyalty to God?

The Investigative Judgement is basically all things compared with God's great Standard; His Character of Love. Jesus is God's Love personified, embodied; "...all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." Colossians 2:9 He is drawing humanity to Himself; inviting us to close communion with Him, to experience His own conception of truest fulfilling LOVE! Those within whom the Spirit of the Godhead dwells at End-Time, will be completely in harmony with Their purpose, as "this mind...which was also in Christ Jesus" Philippians 2:5 -dwells in them. "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin" 1 Peter 4:1

This old garment of an Earth, along with everything in it that does not reflect His glory, His Character, will be destroyed on THAT DAY that He will "do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act." Isaiah 28:21

Christ says in the Spirit, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. Revelation 22:11-15

Our name will be written in the Book of Life, only IF, we  "...give diligence to make...our calling and election sure: for IF (we) do these things, (we) shall never fall..." 2 Peter 1:10
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: colporteur on April 05, 2012, 10:26:26 AM
The IJ is not a topic you can just nail down with a couple of sound bites. The sanctuary service is an outline of the plan of redemption. One can say "Jesus saves" but that does not describe how He saves and what is involved. This cannot be studied and understood like you pick up a newspaper and read the headlines. Unless we are willing to take to careful and prayerful time to study the earthly sanctuary with a surrendered heart we are left to glom on to whatever palatable opinion comes along.

We are living in an age to where people want fast food religion. Rather than taking time to become a spiritual athlete, so to speak, by putting in dedicated time, study, and prayer, we tend to want just enter the race at the end and receive the ribbon. Salvation does not work that way. This is why the plan of salvation has been so carefully laid out in the sanctuary service. So we need no err unless we carelessly chose to do so.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: billy on April 06, 2012, 01:38:34 AM
“The IJ is not a topic you can just nail down with a couple of sound bites.”

Apologies for being late with this reply.
Now I would ask for patience and understanding with what I say. We as a church condemn other churches/groups for interpreting Scripture in an unsound way. These groups interpret to get a result that suits what they want to hear.
We are the first ones to jump on them and make them go to the Bible and the Bible only. Yet here we want to add to the Scripture (EGW) and get a result that suits what we want to hear.
That is not to say EGW is not an end day prophetess at all. We know that not all Biblical prophets spoke the truth all the time.
If the IJ is hard to nail down as suggested by the above quote I am sure that there are many church members who have no idea what it is about.
The texts quoted are what you believe to be the truth on the IJ but looking at it closely none of the texts mention the IJ at all. There is judgement, books are open but this concept of an IJ is missing from what you quote.
Now the difficulty is that all here believe in the IJ and see it as obvious as can be. But someone looking from the outside does not see it that way at all. So what do we do, go back to EGW and rely on her word for deciding what doctrine is right and what is wrong. She tells us not to do that at all. That Scripture is to be the deciding standard that the Church is to accept.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Mimi on April 06, 2012, 05:56:47 AM
This is a broad overview of the investigative judgment from Scripture, "here a little, there a little," "line upon line." It is brief, yet the basic structure is there. Bless you as you consider it.

Let’s begin with the sanctuary. The earthly sanctuary (anti-type) was constructed, set up and furnished after the pattern of the heavenly (type, or the true, not built with hands):  "Let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them. According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle. . . ." Exodus 25:8, 9.  We will assume you have a working knowledge of its services, both daily (sacrifices) and annually (cleansing of accumulated sins). If you look at the annual service, the Day of Atonement performed in the wilderness, you will realize it was a local day of judgment, investigative in nature. The life of the high priest weighed in the balance all the while the Children of Israel “afflicted their souls and fasted in prayer” waiting for him to emerge from the most holy place. Again, we will assume you know the details. We also assume you can acknowledge everything associated with the earthly service represented in type what was to be revealed in antitype. Agreed?

Following are prophecies from various places in Scripture showing us there will be a time when type meets antitype. And unless you need it, I will not elaborate much on each verse but will let Scripture speak for itself. 

Dan 8:14  And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

You are familiar with the 2300 day prophecy and this little chart?

(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd271/sybilinanaumer/2300daysedited.jpg)

Dan 7:9  I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Dan 7:10  A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

According to the type the earthly sanctuary represented, the high priest was to accomplish a final atonement, or a work of judgment, during his annual visit into the holy of holies. The antitype fulfillment required the true High Priest, Jesus, to do the same thing in the pattern temple above. Are we in agreement?

Now, let’s turn to the book of Hebrews. "We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched and not man." Hebrews 8:1, 2.  In the earthly sanctuary, it was the Levites "who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God, when he was about to make the tabernacle: for see, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount." Hebrews 8:5. For more detail, read Hebrews 9:1-10.

Look at this to see the work of Jesus in the heavenly sanctuary: "Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." Hebrews 9:25-28.

Notice the use of the word “judgment” and “in the end of the world.” 

This explains it better: "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us." Hebrews 9:22-24

And here is the judgment scene recorded in Revelation 20:12, "And the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

At the second coming, Jesus will bring His reward with Him. Would He give the saints a reward if He did not first decide who He would  take to heaven? No. The decision has to be made beforehand or else the following verse is meaningless: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he which is righteous, let him be righteous still. . . . And behold I come quickly; and my reward is with me to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:11, 12. This one, too: "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:15. What is written in the books determines beforehand who is saved and who is not, for Jesus said, "Not everyone that saith, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 7:21. He further says,
"He that overcometh . . . I will not blot out his name out of the book of life." Revelation 3:5.

Here is a blessed promise: "Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." Hebrews 4:14-16.

Hebrews 7:25  Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Mimi on April 06, 2012, 06:32:48 AM
Now I would ask for patience and understanding with what I say. We as a church condemn other churches/groups for interpreting Scripture in an unsound way. These groups interpret to get a result that suits what they want to hear.

We are a patient group, overall. Re: other churches, they are largely self-condemned through the Word of God. But, He has His faithful in many religions and congregations throughout the world who do not do this.


Quote
We are the first ones to jump on them and make them go to the Bible and the Bible only. Yet here we want to add to the Scripture (EGW) and get a result that suits what we want to hear.

Untrue, dear man. Ellen White adds nothing to Scripture. If we were not so dense, we would not need her writings at all, but God saw fit to send a prophet because after 6,000 years of sin and degradation, we do not have the brain power of the antediluvians and in His mercy toward us, He sent a prophet. Do you not see that He did the same thing for men throughout the ages? Just look at the number of prophets listed in the Old Testament alone. Would you too reject those?

Converted Bible students do not massage Scripture to fit the needs of carnal minds. Quite the opposite. Through the power of the Holy Spirit (divine grace) we conform our minds to His. Paul's ministry speaks of this issue more than any other subject he addresses.

Quote
That is not to say EGW is not an end day prophetess at all. We know that not all Biblical prophets spoke the truth all the time.

Where did you come up with that idea? When they spoke what God told them to speak, it was truth or else the Bible is corrupted. Did every word they ever spoke at the dinner table or among friends outside of giving messages to His people count? You nitpick and are unreasonable here, my brother.

Quote
If the IJ is hard to nail down as suggested by the above quote I am sure that there are many church members who have no idea what it is about.

They lack knowledge because they refuse to study it for themselves. That does not mean it does not exist. The church and its members are described in Revelation 3. Laodicea. They are rich and in need of nothing but they are blind and in need of eye salve.

Quote
The texts quoted are what you believe to be the truth on the IJ but looking at it closely none of the texts mention the IJ at all. There is judgement, books are open but this concept of an IJ is missing from what you quote.

You were not addressing me, but note I have offered you a brief outline. If you want a full-blown Bible study, I will greatly enhance it and we will experience a wonderful blessing by doing so. Just say the word, or go back to page one of this topic and begin reading. It's all there. 

Quote
Now the difficulty is that all here believe in the IJ and see it as obvious as can be. But someone looking from the outside does not see it that way at all. So what do we do, go back to EGW and rely on her word for deciding what doctrine is right and what is wrong. She tells us not to do that at all. That Scripture is to be the deciding standard that the Church is to accept.

Yes, it is obvious to one who studies Scripture. Surface readers unaccustomed to study will not see it. The pioneers of our movement hashed this out from Scripture and God was with them but note that they studied and prayed, sometimes all night, for understanding. Daniel was given the 2300 prophecy and fainted. His was a wise man and could not comprehend, so God sent Gabriel to explain and we too have that benefit if we care to discover what exactly the Bible says. Trouble is, most don't want to expend an ounce of mental energy to do it. "Study to show thyself approved" is the admonition. Don't study and spiritual loss is the result.

You are mistaken in your belief that God's end-time prophet laid down doctrine. She did not. God did and she helped ignorant people understand what He wanted them to know.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on April 06, 2012, 07:27:20 AM
Brother billie, you have a great burden on your heart. We are sorry you do. You have come here explaining that many in Australia do not understand a basic Biblical truth. I agree. You have confirmed what I have been saying for a long time. Many including ministers and leadership in Australia have departed from the truth. Desmond Ford has left destruction in his path, but there are faithful pastors and church members in Australia. I have met many of them. But, the conference is steeped in error. You are a good example of it.  I have asked you to address the error presented in this topic. You do not. But, rather you express your burden, that you disdain what you call a prophet. Because you are unable to refute from the Bible the Investigative Judgment, you continue to "teach" that the prophet is unreliable. But, we are not using her to explain the IJ. You keep bringing it up.  I have searched through our posts and not one of us has used the Spirit of Prophecy to teach the truth regarding the IJ. We have used the Bible. You are the one who brought it up.

Sybil has explained what you fail to understand. I stated that if you are a baptized Seventh-day Adventist, then you ought to understand the three angel's message. But, you ignore this. Why? Because you do not agree with what the church has always taught. The three angel's message is God's last warning message to the world. Yet, you do not believe it. You have rejected it. In belief, you are not a Seventh-day Adventist and many of your acquaintances are not either.  They have rejected Bible truth that the church is actively teaching today. As we speak, the world church is sending out millions of copies of The Great Controversy. How do you feel about that, billie? Is your conference going to do the same? Revival and reformation is coming and you have a choice to make. Either you give your heart to Christ and cease your rebellion or you will find yourself further and further removed from God's church.

You may search through the last twelve years of posts and you will find another post such as this one. We have been extremely tolerant of false teachers. But, today is a new day. Jesus is preparing a people to receive Jesus at His soon coming. We invite you to join with us in taking the three angels message to the world. It begins with the proclamation of the true gospel and the truth that a judgment has begun. Your name, dear brother will one day soon come up. The books will be opened and the words that you have spoken will be used to reveal if you did indeed accept Christ as your Saviour. By your words, you will be judged. Even though you deny this gospel truth. It is Biblical billie. You have been misled and you are misleading others to believe they are saved in their sins. "O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.  A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.  But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.  For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Matt. 12:34-37.

You may point to the Spirit of Prophecy as being the problem as you try to get around the Bible, but even a child can understand what here is written. Only those who are steeped in error will not accept these Words of Jesus. When He comes, the investigation into every professing believer will be finished. The judgment spoken of when the books are opened, must happen before He comes so He can take home all who have truly become His children. They will be a reflection of Him because His Spirit lives within them. Billie, you too may be one these that will live with Christ forever. There is no excuse for sin. Christ has provided a remedy at great cost.

We are either a savor of life unto life or of death unto death. Let us be as fragrant flowers. Let the love of Christ pervade your life. Let your words be an encouragement to all that you come in contact with. This is the work the Lord wants us to do. Instead of attacking the truth and those who love God and keep His commandments, can you not think of enough to praise the Lord for? Can you not praise Him because He died for you, because He has spared you for so long, because you have His word, which is so full of precious promises? He offers you the bread of life. He says, "The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life." Eat His Word, search it, dig deep for the hidden treasure. Do not look for an argument. "Be still, and know that I am God." Be still long enough to know that God is God. Remember that you are to help every one around you. Forget yourself, your bruises and wounds and difficulties. Praise God, and he will receive you. Because he lives, you may live also.

Since we have already posted the Bible truth regarding the IJ, there is no need to re-post it. If there is something you do not understand and you wish to ask a question, then please feel free to do so. Otherwise, let us move on to a more profitable discussion regarding the love of God and the power of grace to transform our lives. There are many topics to choose from. If you want to access the private "SDA" area of our board, then send us your church affiliation and a private phone number and you may have access. May God bless your desire to serve our Lord and His church.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: colporteur on April 06, 2012, 02:45:41 PM
“The IJ is not a topic you can just nail down with a couple of sound bites.”

If the IJ is hard to nail down as suggested by the above quote I am sure that there are many church members who have no idea what it is about.

billy;

You missed a very important part of my above quote. I did not say the IJ is hard to nail down. It is easy to nail down. What was said was that " the IJ is not a topic you can just nail down with a couple of sound bites."

In other words, one cannot do justice in explaining the prophetic details of the IJ with
 a couple of Bible verses. This would be like trying to explain the procedures of comprehensive brain surgery in a couple of sentences and then expect someone to understand in clarity how brain surgery works. You could toss in a sound bite type overview but in terms of truly explaining the procedure there would be little understanding by the one trying to learn.

    Some aspects of the judgment are quite simple but by the same token there are a number of facets involved in amply describing this judgment. This reminds me of the ten commandments. Each has a very clear and basic application. However the ten feather out and take in every aspect of sin. To be angry at your brother without a cause falls under the heading of "Thou shalt not kill". This is because anger, jealousy etc. are the roots and forerunner of murder. Are the ten commandments simple and basic?" Yes they are. Are the same Ten commandments comprehensive and detailed?" Absolutely! The same is truth in terms of the IJ. The closer we get to God and the less we cling to self, the more details of God's glory we will grasp and admire. The IJ is a masterpiece of God's dealing with sin.

You have said billy that we just want to believe in the IJ and therefore rely on the SOP and not the Bible. Why would we want to do that ? Why would we want to take what appears to you like a wide easy road and make it difficult for ourselves by necessitating the surrendering of our selfish will and reflecting the character of God?

You have said that the prophet is not always right. That is only true when the prophet apostatizes. It does not appear that you believe Mrs. White apostatized.
What about when the prophet said " I was shown" or "I saw?" Do you think that when a true prophet of God was in vision and after coming out of vision and then describing the vision, they a manufactured a whole doctrine of falsehood?
If that is what Mes. White did she was a false prophet. Otherwise what she saw and said is true. You cannot come down on both sides. That is like saying someone is half dead. There is no such thing. either the person is dead or they are alive. You are claiming that EGW was half alive and half dead. Many did that very thing with Christ. They said that Christ was not who He said He was but yet He was a very good man. Either Jesus was a great man and He was God or else He was a liar and deceiver. You must decide billy who EGW was. Your current position works against itself. That's what error does.

Could you explain billy your view of what the judgment is and how it works? What is involved?

Have a happy Sabbath !
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Glen on April 06, 2012, 10:23:17 PM
...can you please in plain simple English tell me how and what you wrote in your reply has anything to do with the IJ?

It is very evident that you are rather confident that you can read between the lines, Billy, so I'll leave it up to the Holy Spirit to bring any needed conviction. As Scripture reveals, The Spirit indeed is willing and ready, but when we are yet carnal, the flesh is weak, and we cannot do the things that we would. (Matthew 26:41; Mark 14:38; Romans 8:3-9; Galatians 5:17.[/color]

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under (or condemned as guilty of transgressing) the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.  Galatians 5:16-24

Only just to that degree we are are willing to grow up to know the Truth as it is IN Jesus, will He reveal Himself more fully to us; and thus we be enabled to perform His bidding (see 2 Corinthians 8:11; Ephesians 4:15).

...the times of...ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. 32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked… Acts 17:24-31

God's instruction to youth like myself is, that I must mark those who ...consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. 6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 1 Timothy 6:3-6

Brother Billy; like I said earlier, I do not consider myself a Bible scholar. While I know this fact may cause you to disdain and perhaps even ignore what I would share with you, do not forget that  Jesus saith...Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise? Matthew 21:16

There are other elements of the Truth as it is in Jesus, disregarded, that amount to idol worship, like putting our thoughts before God's revealed will, as did Lucifer and Adam and Eve, even "I" (see Isaiah 14:14) -that God the Father  ...hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. Acts 17:31 (repeated for emphasis)  So, as you can see, as certain as Christ was raised from the dead, so certain will He judge the world in righteousness, regardless of your, or any man's, many words to the contrary.

These words of vs. 31 ...a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness certainly applies to each individual one of us, dear friend Billy...only God can judge for certain who has eternal life in Christ abiding in them (see 1 John 5:11); however, your words appear to bear fruit unto death because the motive revealed by them would keep one sinning and sinning and sinning until Christ comes in the clouds. That would seem to be blasting any vestige of possibility that the indwelling Saviour is able to keep you from falling (see Jude 24 for instance), thus making God the liar; and we know from Scripture that God does not lie. (see Titus 1:2) Truly we need, moment by moment, Examine...ourselves, whether (we) be in the faith; prove...our own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? 2 Corinthians 13:5

...shall (your) unbelief (or mine) make the faith of God without effect? 4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. 5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) 6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world? 7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? 8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just. Romans 3:3-8
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Glen on April 06, 2012, 11:11:45 PM
(God the Father) hath given assurance  (to you, Brother Billy, to me, and every man woman, and child on earth; personally,  in that he hath raised (Christ) from the dead. 32 And when they  (so long ago)  heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked… Shall you? Shall I, Billy? -His words through Hanani the seer are inspired words of which it would do well for us to heed; -they're in 2 Chronicles 16:9 ...the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is PERFECT toward him. How is it with you, Billy? How about these words Christ spoke on the Mount of Blessing  Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matthew 5:48  -They seem to roll off your mind, not even, apparently, affecting you; and,  when any one of us lack belief in His Word, we indicate that; for us, ...Christ be not raised, (our) faith is vain; (we) are yet in (our) sins. 1 Corinthians 15:7 -And that has been the confession of your mouth, as far as I have read what you wrote.

If we have such a godly sorrow for sin that, by God's grace through His Spirit, would keep us FROM transgressing; yet again, lazily, Laodicean-like, keep falling back into sin, thus “repenting” that we had repented... (see 2 Corinthians 7:11) -though however loudly we may cry, “I want Bible, “the WORD ONLY”, yet at the same time DENY HIM ENTRANCE, His Spirit clearly, steadfastly declares,  We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. 20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. 1 John 5:18-20 Then; my friend Billy, I have got to share with you (from the Bible) ...that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth... 1 John 1:5, 6

Christ Himself said to the Pharisees, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. 13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Matthew 9:12, 13  God would have us be baptized in the likeness of Christ's death, that we might be quickened in our mortal body to serve Him with the power He gives us! ...we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Hebrews 10:10 Not; as evidenced by so many religions today, to give the believer license to continue in sin, but that we may cease from sin. 1 Peter 4:1

So you see, Brother Billy, the purpose of the Godhead is that the sinner see the error of his ways, repent, TURNING AWAY FROM HIS SIN(s), and truly LIVE, partaking of the divine nature, in Christ, so melded with Him that Christ  lives the abundant love of the Godhead in the truly penitent sinner. (see Galatians 2:20; Colossians 2:9). -This is known by the WORD and the economy of Heaven, as  ...ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 2 Peter 1:19 ...when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. Hebrews 5:12

"...leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ; going on unto perfection, does NOT mean continuing in sin, no matter what outcry the carnal mind might connive as evidence or reason to the contrary.

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:1

...this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. 7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds. 2 John 1:6-11

I'll humbly conclude that we must be very, very careful how lightly we heed the warnings of the prophets of God; especially those to whom the Word of the Lord comes in the last days within whom He has written His law; upon whom is transcribed His holy character. We must not venture to ignore their prophesying (see Acts 2:17), But covet(ing) earnestly the best gifts... 1 Corinthians 12:31  -truly perceive, believe, and receive the fact that ...that which is perfect is come... 1 Corinthians 13:10 

That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Ephesians 3:16-19

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 1 Peter 4:17, 18
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Mimi on April 07, 2012, 05:16:13 AM
Good morning, everyone! I pray each of you experience a blest Sabbath day.

Once again I read this topic. According to the stats on the forum, we see this:

Quote
Topic: Investigative Judgment  (Read 30799 times since May 12, 2002)

That's tremendous! There is great interest in this subject, to say the least. Richard opened this topic four months before my baptism into this incredible end-time movement.

That God chose to teach us through earthly sanctuary symbols proves He would not have us bereft of heavenly knowledge critical to our salvation. While sometimes we cannot see above the earthly, He is not controlled by any human standard, thought or opinion. The Lord says, "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways. . . . For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8, 9. And aren't we glad for that? 

Occasionally we find ourselves seeking to know that which has not been fully revealed, curious side-interests having nothing to do with salvation. Admittedly, there are times they make for interesting conversation that can be further distilled into pure speculation. In the meantime, multitudes overlook the truths that He has revealed.

Until we allow the Spirit to educate us on these truths, we cannot go higher and yet higher to comprehend those heavenly things He further wants to impart. He has a treasure chest of knowledge yet to be revealed but we find ourselves far behind in learning what is already within the pages of holy Scripture. That we may catch up, redeem the time, is my prayer.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Glen on April 07, 2012, 07:32:35 AM
...Occasionally we find ourselves seeking to know that which has not been fully revealed, curious side-interests having nothing to do with salvation. Admittedly, there are times they make for interesting conversation that can be further distilled into pure speculation. In the meantime, multitudes overlook the truths that He has revealed.

Until we allow the Spirit to educate us on these truths, we cannot go higher and yet higher to comprehend those heavenly things He further wants to impart. He has a treasure chest of knowledge yet to be revealed but we find ourselves far behind in learning what is already within the pages of holy Scripture. That we may catch up, redeem the time, is my prayer.

"...multitudes overlook the truths that He has revealed."

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ...Amen. 25 ...is of power to stablish you according to...the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith... Romans 16:24-26

Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables... Mark 4:11

...the riches of the glory of this mystery...is CHRIST IN YOU, (your only) hope of glory... Colossians 1:27

...as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:9-16

Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 1 Peter 1:13-16

...hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus... Christ; -when IS this? Isn't the revelation of Jesus Christ, nothing less than the maturing of the sons of God, the infilling and maturing in them of the life of Christ through His Spirit, in God's sight, BEFORE Christ comes in the clouds at His second coming? Let's not be caught short, cheating ourselves by our unbelief, moaning and groaning that because we have had the fallen human nature all our past life that we just cannot stop sinning; let's rise from the dead, as it were, TO DAY, responding to the Word(s) of Christ, and truly live, actually partaking of the divine nature! Jesus says to you this moment: It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. John 6:63, 63

...be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Romans 12:2

There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. 12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. Hebrews 4:9-16

When is our time of need, but especially at the moment of temptation to sin?! May we sincerely and humbly, earnestly, internally realize the vital fact that those who live in the time of the Investigative Judgment are to live without sin during the Anti-typical Day of Atonement. During the Typical Day of Atonement, those who had not examined themselves and had unforsaken sin, were cut off from the living! Let's not be so presumptuous as to think that "they are saved" and will be resurrected at Christ's second coming in the First Resurrection, saved to sin on throughout eternity. God will not then work a miracle for them on THAT DAY, against their will when they chose to sin and loved evil while they yet lived, unrepentant, reprobate, unregenerate lives. Let us pray for one another, here at the end of the Time of the End, that we may be healed and truly Sealed, not seeming to fall short day by day until the Lord comes in the clouds.

REMEMBERING without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; 4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. 5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance... 1 Thessalonians 1:3-5

Friend; has the Gospel of Jesus Christ come to you ...in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance...?

THEN:
...the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. Hebrews 13:20, 21

Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. 2 Corinthians 4:10

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 1 Peter 4:17, 18

...God; 6 ...will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil... 10 ...glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good... Romans 2:5-10
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on April 07, 2012, 07:59:55 AM
Amen! billie, what Sybil and Glen have posted is important Biblical truth that speaks to our topic. For many who are not grounded in the truth, and many more who are not truly converted, the subject of the Investigative Judgment may be a little difficult. But, I don't think it ought to be. If one wants to know the truth, that they may walk in it, then the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth of this subject. It is hated by Satan for it unmasks the false gospel so prevalent in professing Christian churches.  Billie has linked the gospel and the IJ together for us. In his statement, he sees the true gospel and the IJ being taught in the church, but he believes both are false teachings.  He links a "works" religion with obedience to the law of God. And therefore, the IJ that judges one by their works is also against Scripture. This is a revelation that large segments of professing Christian churches are far from the gospel truth. Works will save no one, but our deeds, words, thoughts, and motives will reveal who we serve.

Jesus said in the Book of Matthew:

  7:13   Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 
  7:14   Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 
  7:15   Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 
  7:16   Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 
  7:17   Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 
  7:18   A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 
  7:19   Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 
  7:20   Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 
  7:21   Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 

Billie and all who believe as he does, must reject these Words of Christ. They believe and many teach that this is a "works" religion. I suppose that at this point it would be good to begin a topic on "Salvation by Works" so that we understand this great danger to the gospel message of salvation by grace.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: asygo on April 27, 2012, 11:42:30 PM
Sybil

"Am sorry for you. No faith in God's end-time prophet."

Not true at all, but EGW is not the Bible and she herself says so.

You said you knew where the quote originated, saying it did not make it Biblical. You cannot have it both ways. Either you believe God's prophets to support the Bible or you don't.

Billy is right. What EGW said - no matter how often, no matter how vehemently, no matter how true - is not part of the Bible.

However, if we believe her to be a true prophet, which many here do, then it would behoove us to search the Scriptures to see if these things are so. Human opinions should carry little weight.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: asygo on April 28, 2012, 12:00:40 AM
If that is so then how many here are sinless?

In round figures, I would guess 0.

I am not, never have been and never will be this side of heaven. But I am in good company

Though I don't know you, I tend to agree with that. None of the prophets ever claimed sinlessness, and neither should we.

Paul said he was chief of sinner after his conversion.

Yes, he did say that.

This does have connotations for the IJ as it very simply says that we sin and sin and sin.

Now here's where we're going to have to tap the brakes a bit.

First, we have to be clear what the IJ is for. Taken literally, it means that there will be an investigation, and a judgment will be rendered. It doesn't say that you and I are, or must be, sinless. All it says is that there's an investigation and there's a judgment. Sinlessness/sinfulness is a separate, though not necessarily independent, matter.

Second, Paul said of himself before his conversion, "concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." (Philippians 3:6) He was blameless before he met Jesus, but saw himself as the chief of sinners after becoming an apostle. How is that? Can it be that one can be good without Jesus, then meeting Jesus makes him bad? There is a reason why people who would rather die than knowingly commit a sin still do not consider themselves sinless.

The idea that "we sin and sin and sin" must be guided by Paul's life and Christ's mission to save us from our sins. (Matt 1:21)
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: colporteur on April 28, 2012, 05:49:07 AM
Many times the topic is necessarily confused with the word "sinless". Many use these terms to mean ceasing to sin. When they say "we will never be sinless they mean we will sin and keep sinning until death. Those who are translated will not be sinless in terms of having never sinned but they will truly be sinless in terms of ceasing to sin. This will happen before probation closes not after. In other words, they, we , will not have sin in the life any longer. Sin will be recorded as a fact of the past  but not happening in the present and future. We will be sinless in that regard.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: billy on April 28, 2012, 06:13:22 AM
Read 1 John 1:8

Can you tell me where in the Bible that we will be sinless?

Because 1 John 1:8 says different to that. In fact it says if we say we do not sin we are deceivers and the truth is not in us.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: colporteur on April 28, 2012, 07:09:39 AM
Read 1 John 1:8

Can you tell me where in the Bible that we will be sinless?

Because 1 John 1:8 says different to that. In fact it says if we say we do not sin we are deceivers and the truth is not in us.

You misquoted.    " If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

We all have sin. "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God."  however, You would like that to read something like, all keep sinning and cannot keep the commandments. That's not what God's Word says.

You believe that Jesus is asking the impossible in John 14:15. That slanders God's character.

Define "sinless" for me,... exactly. Do not make this topic unnessarily difficult and bring in confusion.
If you mean that all have sinned (notice the past tense) and come short of the glory of God. I agree, absolutely.
However, if you mean that Christ cannot or will not free us from sinning then you have bought Satan's lie and send his message. Jesus undeniably stated "If ye love Me keep my commandments." John 14:15.  You reply, "Lord, we cannot do that." That is unbelief. It is that simple, billy.



Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Glen on April 28, 2012, 07:29:36 AM
Some think that because we are first born with a fallen, sinful nature, the Born Again, as partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4), will continue to sin (Romans 6:1, 2); however, Christ has given us ...a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; Hebrews 10:20 ...speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: Ephesians 4:15 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. Galatians 2:17
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Mimi on April 28, 2012, 08:24:27 AM
Sybil

"Am sorry for you. No faith in God's end-time prophet."

Not true at all, but EGW is not the Bible and she herself says so.

You said you knew where the quote originated, saying it did not make it Biblical. You cannot have it both ways. Either you believe God's prophets to support the Bible or you don't.

Billy is right. What EGW said - no matter how often, no matter how vehemently, no matter how true - is not part of the Bible.

However, if we believe her to be a true prophet, which many here do, then it would behoove us to search the Scriptures to see if these things are so.

It is true I am aging, but please. I never said EGW's writings are a part of the Bible. It is what she SAID that is Biblical.  

There exists a prejudice against God's prophets that though one be raised from the dead, they still would not believe. We live in an age of unbelief.

Quote
Human opinions should carry little weight.


True unless you are speaking of a prophet of God. It is the Spirit that moves them to speak and then it is not their personal opinion but a message from God to His people.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on April 28, 2012, 08:39:36 AM
In His teachings, Christ showed how far reaching are the principles of the law of God. He made a living application of that law whose principles remain forever the great standard of righteousness, the standard by which all shall be judged when the books shall be opened. Perfection of character is attainable by every one who strives for it. This is made the very foundation of the new covenant of the gospel. God's law is the transcript of His character. It embodies the principles of His kingdom.  The glorious possibilities set before Israel could be realized only through obedience to God's commandments. The same elevation of character, the same fulness of blessing, blessing on mind and soul and body, blessing on house and field, blessing for this life and for the life to come, is possible for us only through obedience.  Let us not lower the standard, but keep it lifted high, looking to Him who is the Author and the Finisher of our faith.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: billy on April 30, 2012, 05:18:15 AM
(Define "sinless" for me,... exactly. Do not make this topic unnessarily difficult and bring in confusion.
If you mean that all have sinned (notice the past tense) and come short of the glory of God. I agree, absolutely.
However, if you mean that Christ cannot or will not free us from sinning then you have bought Satan's lie and send his message. Jesus undeniably stated "If ye love Me keep my commandments." John 14:15.  You reply, "Lord, we cannot do that." That is unbelief. It is that simple, billy.) by colporteur

www.thefreedictionary.com/sinless

Block all www.thefreedictionary.com results

sinless [ˈsɪnlɪs]. adj. free from sin or guilt; innocent; pure. sinlessly adv. sinlessness n. ThesaurusLegend: Synonyms Related Words Antonyms ...

That is probably as good as you are going to get from most people. But from a Biblical sense it falls way short. Read Roy Adams book on the Nature of Christ. He sums it up very well. Sin is more more than what we do, it also includes what we do not do. Falling short of the mark. Even if we could go just one day without breaking the law (by the way we can't) we would sin by falling short of the mark.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: colporteur on April 30, 2012, 05:41:07 AM
Very simply billy, do you believe Revelation 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints. Here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." 
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Glen on May 01, 2012, 05:58:46 AM
...Sin is more more than what we do, it also includes what we do not do. Falling short of the mark. Even if we could go just one day without breaking the law (by the way we can't) we would sin by falling short of the mark.

...the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; THAT we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:10-14

Jesus clarifies the Truth, AND IT IS HIS WORD THAT WE MAY HEAR IF WE HAVE AN EAR TO HEAR:
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. John 15:3-5

...now I send thee, 18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. Acts 26:17, 18

The Faithful of every generation that receive inheritance through Christ are sanctified by the faith that is in Him; not their faith in Him, but by "the faith of Jesus" Revelation 14:12 !

...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. 14 DO all things without murmurings and disputings: 15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; 16 Holding forth the word of life... Philippians 2:12-16

You will notice in verse14-16, above, that those who are holding forth the word of life among a perverse nation are the sons of God blameless and harmless, DOING ALL THINGS without murmurings and disputings, working out their own salvation, confident that is it God which is working within them both to will and then to do of His good pleasure!

According to what I hear from Billy, "The Good News" cannot change one single soul from sinning, to holiness in Christ; yet Scripture sets the stage of Truth, making straight the Way of the Lord Isaiah 40:3; Matthew 3:3; Mark 1:3; Luke 3:4; John 1:23: ...if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. 10 Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, IF our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live? 11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die... Ezekiel 33:9-11

Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 2 Peter 1:2-9

Jesus said...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God. Luke 9:62

The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth. 11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd. 12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. Ecclesiastes 12:10-14

...Every day, our words and acts are making impressions upon those with whom we associate.... The true follower of Christ strengthens the good purposes of all with whom he comes in contact. Before an unbelieving, sin-loving world he reveals the power of God’s grace and the perfection of His character. God's Amazing Grace 263.05

That the Lord thy God may shew us the way wherein we may walk, and the thing that we may do. Jeremiah 42:3.
To dwell upon the beauty, goodness, mercy, and love of Jesus is strengthening to the mental and moral powers, and while the mind is kept trained to do the works of Christ, to be obedient children, you will habitually inquire, Is this the way of the Lord? Will Jesus be pleased to have me do this? ... God's Amazing Grace.01

Many need to make a decided change in the tenor of their thoughts and actions, if they would please Jesus. We can seldom see our sins in the grievous light that God can. Many have habituated themselves to pursue a course of sin, and their hearts harden, under the influence of the power of Satan.... God's Amazing Grace.02

But when in the strength and grace of God they place their minds against the temptations of Satan, their minds are made clear, their hearts and consciences by being influenced by the Spirit of God are made sensitive, and then sin appears as it is—exceedingly sinful. God's Amazing Grace.03

Every act of obedience to Christ, every act of self-denial for His sake, every trial well endured, every victory gained over temptation, is a step in the march to the glory of final victory. If we take Christ for our guide, He will lead us safely. The veriest sinner need not miss his way. Not one trembling seeker need fail of walking in pure and holy light. Though the path is so narrow, so holy that sin cannot be tolerated therein, yet access has been secured for all, and not one doubting, trembling soul need say, “God cares nought for me”.... God's Amazing Grace.04

And all the way up the steep road leading to eternal life are well-springs of joy to refresh the weary. Those who walk in wisdom’s ways are, even in tribulation, exceeding joyful; for He whom their soul loveth, walks, invisible, beside them. At each upward step they discern more distinctly the touch of His hand; at every step brighter gleamings of glory from the Unseen fall upon their path; and their songs of praise, reaching ever a higher note, ascend to join the songs of angels before the throne. “The path of the righteous is as the light of dawn, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day” (Proverbs 4:18, R.V., margin). God's Amazing Grace.05

So; what is it that yet hinders every soul that draws back from complete surrender (Hebrews 10:38); more than a religion of mere repentance and form of godliness 2 Timothy 3:5, THAT which brings supernatural power and victory in Christ Ephesians 1:9; Colossians 1:27?

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water AND of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5

As the eunuch implored Philip regarding water baptism, may we press ever closer, imploring God for the baptism of His Holy Spirit to make us a ...a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light 1 Peter 2:9.

...See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? Acts 8:36

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience... 1 Peter 1:2

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself; 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise Ephesians 1:9, 12, 13.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Glen on May 01, 2012, 07:26:22 AM
...Every part of the Christian’s being, his time, his service, his property, his strength, have been paid for. His all is the Lord’s. At the moment he gave himself to Christ, he was recorded as the Redeemer’s willing agent, just as if the price of salvation had been paid for him alone. Upon him is laid the duty of revealing Christ in all he does. The life he lives is Christ’s; for over the rent sepulcher of Joseph the Saviour proclaimed, “I am the resurrection and the life.” He is to use his every power in Christ’s service. His talents of reason, of influence, of speech, of means, all are the Lord’s. They always were the Lord’s, but before his conversion, he did not acknowledge this. He has now become one with Christ. With Paul he may say, “I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me.” His life is bound up with the life of Christ in the great plan of redemption. His character is to be a reproduction of the character of Christ. Christlike self-denial and self-sacrifice, Christlike patience and gentleness, are to be manifested by him.

Christ has put it out of our power to give Him anything that God has not first given us. All belongs to God; therefore every one is bound by the ransom which has been paid to return to God His own. Those who have witnessed a good confession should now draw together in the bonds of Christian fellowship, consecrating themselves wholly to God. Union is strength. Then let God’s people draw in even cords, exerting the influence which Christ by His death has made it possible for them to exert.
The Review and Herald April 16, 1901
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: colporteur on May 01, 2012, 07:29:18 AM
Very simply billy, do you believe Revelation 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints. Here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." 
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: colporteur on May 02, 2012, 06:44:29 AM
Very simply billy, do you believe Revelation 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints. Here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." 

I think this was a difficult text and question for billy. It ought not be. It is Scripture. It is straight forward.

For those who believe God's Word the question is not "what do you think?" "What do some people say?" or  "can you show me someone who proves that God's Word is correct?"  The question is not "has it happened?", "is it happening?" or "will it happen?"    The question for a believer is "will I be among those who keep the commandments of God  and have the faith of Jesus?"

Notice that the "faith of Jesus" goes hand in hand with keeping the commandments. If we do not have that faith we will not be keeping the commandments.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on June 09, 2012, 02:45:41 PM
Amen! And that is just the point in the IJ.  If we have saving faith, we will be keeping the commandments to the degree that we know them. More than that, we shall be doing what we know to be right. The heart will have been purified so that our motives are holy and just and good. We may eat the wrong food, wear the wrong clothes, speak the wrong words, but if the heart is given to Christ, then we are His and will be in His kingdom. Day by day the Christian will grow in grace and learn to more perfectly reflect the character of our Lord. But, that does not allow for the Christian to sin and remain connected to God. No. Sin reveals a separation between man and God. Christ does not sin. If Christ be in us, then we shall manifest all of the fruits of His Spirit and none of the works of the flesh.

Today, if we sin, we still have a Saviour who is interceding in behalf of sinners.  But, soon, very soon, Jesus will cease interceding for sinners. Why? Because interceding will do no good. Why? Because all have made their final decision and their characters are fixed. Not because God made them that way, but because we choose whom we shall serve. And, our daily works create habits, and habits form character.  At a point in life, those who have continually rejected the pleading of Christ through the Holy Spirit will have hardened their hearts to the point where they can no longer hear Him. Then, there is no point in speaking to him. He is eternally lost because he is settled into the truth and cannot be moved ever again. Very sad.

The judgment when the books are opened will testify to who it is that has hardened their hearts and who it is that received a new heart and loves God and keeps His commandments. It is just that simple.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: colporteur on June 09, 2012, 04:00:33 PM
Today we drove 90 minutes to perhaps the most faithful church in the area. And yet a woman stood up front in church during superintendent's remarks and said she heard a pastor say something the other day that was a wonderful Revelation to her. He said that sin is not the wrong things we do but it is not believing in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. i passed a note to my wife replying " Satan believes that."  Under that definition of sin Satan is not a sinner. He believes in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. It is becoming fashionable to believe that we need only believe and we are cleared, forgiven, and saved.

This is just alittle off the IJ topic but not entirely. The pastor at this church believes that all music is neutral and while he leads out in a study on Revelation one night a week he would not identify the anti-christ or the beast power. He said that we cannot say because we are not sure.(speak for yourself) He is a young pastor and likely he got that from some leavened professor in school. If we do not know who the beast is how can we know what the mark of the beast is ? If we do not know this we cannot give third Angel's Message of Revelation 14.  That being the case there is little reason to teach Revelation and a good part of our reason for existing as a church is gone.
 
So we have sinning that is not sin and are scratching our head about the role of the papacy in prophecy ?  There is more than one way to make void the IJ.     
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Mimi on June 09, 2012, 04:44:47 PM
Some deranged among us say strange things that are not necessarily representational of the congregation. I pray that is the case here.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: JimB on May 17, 2014, 11:25:55 AM
I did not take the time to go back and read all 15 pages of posts to see if this was addressed but I wanted to share a thought about a passage from the Desire of Ages I read earlier this week. Here is the statement...

The warfare against God's law, which was begun in heaven, will be continued until the end of time. Every man will be tested. Obedience or disobedience is the question to be decided by the whole world. All will be called to choose between the law of God and the laws of men. Here the dividing line will be drawn. There will be but two classes. Every character will be fully developed; and all will show whether they have chosen the side of loyalty or that of rebellion.  {DA 763.3}

When I read this I thought I wished someone had explained this to me better when I was much younger. When teaching and preaching the Investigative Judgment most are correctly taught that our name will come up some day and our case will be decided. But that is all that is said. No wonder a large portion of our people have a wrong view and fear of the IJ. I think most just see that their name is brought forward at random or arbitrarily and if you're found lacking on the scales then you're done.

But from what I understand that this is not the truth of it. As she says... our characters will be fully developed. This is not some random or arbitrary action. It is decided from a life time of choices and decisions. However, since things have to come to an end at some point it appears that God will work circumstances in everyone's lives so that everyone will have made final choices by a certain moment in time.

I'm interested in the thoughts of others. Am I off base on this?
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on May 17, 2014, 04:10:15 PM
Yes Jim, you are exactly right. God is not arbitrary.

Before, commenting, let's hear what others have to say.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: colporteur on May 17, 2014, 07:42:29 PM
We are told that if the lost were given another lifetime to come around it would not happen. That  indicates that when our name comes up we have personally closed our own probation. We have sealed and finalized our choice and God is recognizing  that. A person may not know that they are sealed for or against God but He knows. Time is not the issue. No one's name comes up when they still have any hope of turning to God. God knows when the character is set and no longer moveable or changeable.

It seems to me that God pouring out His Holy Spirit upon those seeking Him as well as His withdrawing it from those who will not accept it will speed up and fully ripen the harvest. Add all out calamity and crisis and character will be polished off and revealed.

Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: JimB on May 18, 2014, 05:03:17 AM
Cp, it appears that I agree with you and if we are correct in our understanding then (from my experience anyway) there is much left unsaid about the character of God in this process.

When my teachers and pastors taught this to us kids I believe much was left out. Remember again that this is from my experience but I believe, at least in the past, that most have been lead to believe that God has some kind of random number generator or a bowl of full names of the contestants on pieces of paper and when your number is generated or your name is drawn that is it and you're either saved or lost. So Johnny or Susy better be behaving when their name is drawn.

I won't but there is a part of me that would like to do a survey of Seventh-day Adventists, even former, to see if I'm correct about how people perceive this. Maybe I'm wrong but I believe this kind of thinking and leads to a service motivated by fear and this is the reason why we have differing ideas about the IJ trying to make more palpable.

P.S. I  hope people don't think that I'm trying to say that we shouldn't be concerned about the IJ. Far from it. We are living in the anti-typical day of Atonement and thus we should be afflicting our souls and working out our salvation with fear and trembling. I also hope that people didn't think I was trying to be sac-religious with my comments about a random number generator the bowl full of names. But I thought it was the best way to convey my thoughts.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: colporteur on May 18, 2014, 07:38:45 AM

 I think phrasing it "when your name comes up" lends itself to the assumption that this is random. That  is not the way God works.

Another interesting ray of light that is almost universally unknown outside of our church and to some extent inside our church is the fact that the unfaithful will not want to go to heaven as heaven is. We are all taught growing up that everyone or nearly so wants to go to heaven when they die. That this is not so makes perfect sense however. Those who desire not to draw close to God  and the things of God, now, when we only see a reflection of Him on this earth will certainly not wish to be in the full light of His prescience in heaven.  To make a crude analogy imagine Tommy not liking green beans but mother makes him eat them along with food that he likes. Now he is taken to a party where all there is to eat is green beans and he is force fed beans the entire time. Do you think he would be happy spending a great deal of time there or  any time there, for that matter ?

Of course the non SDA Christian world has a remedy for that. God just flips a switch before leaving for the party and now green beans are a delight for Tommy to eat. It doesn't happen that way however. If we are not willing to grow to love green beans now the last place we would want to spend eternity is in a green bean factory. Beans will taste the same way in the factory as they do here on earth accept they will be stronger in flavor and everywhere you look. For those who have not converted taste buds that would be a nightmare of the worst kind. So would heaven be to the unconverted. Perhaps this would not be an effective analogy to use with a child who hates broccoli. It might discourage him away from heaven.  ;D
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: JimB on May 18, 2014, 10:09:44 AM
I think phrasing it "when your name comes up" lends itself to the assumption that this is random. That  is not the way God works.

This is a big part of my comment. I'm not saying that we need to teach the IJ in a different way but I would suggest a more thorough way that doesn't harm the character of God.
Title: Re: Investigative Judgment
Post by: Richard Myers on May 24, 2014, 06:33:59 PM
I agree. The doctrine  is not hardly taught any more. But, in the past it was not taught very well. We close our own probations, God does not. Our names do not come up until our probation is closed and we are sealed one way or the other. Since we live in the anti-typical Day of Atonement, some will be judged while living. In that case, we will not know when our name comes up. But, we do not have to be concerned about God  being unfair or arbitrary. Whom do we love, whom do we speak of? If we sin today, but have been living a holy life, there is no fear that God has been waiting for us to slip up. That is not His character. No, He allowed His Son to come to this sin darkened world to save us, not to send us to hell. Jesus delays His leaving the heavenly sanctuary that all who can be saved will be saved. We  need to speak more of His love and patience with humanity. He died for us while we were yet sinners. He came  to save the lost.


     As the books of record are opened in the judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God. Beginning with those who first lived upon the earth, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living. Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected. When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God's remembrance. The Lord declared to Moses: "Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book." Exodus 32:33. And says the prophet Ezekiel: "When the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, . . . all his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned." Ezekiel 18:24.   
     All who have truly repented of sin, and by faith claimed the blood of Christ as their atoning sacrifice, have had pardon entered against their names in the books of heaven; as they have become partakers of the righteousness of Christ, and their characters are found to be in harmony with the law of God, their sins will be blotted out, and they themselves will be accounted worthy of eternal life. The Lord declares, by the prophet Isaiah: "I, even I, am He that blotteth out thy transgressions for Mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins." Isaiah 43:25. Said Jesus: "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels." "Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny Me before men, him will I also deny before My Father which is in heaven." Revelation 3:5; Matthew 10:32, 33.  GC 483