Author Topic: Binding Aspects of the Mosaic Law  (Read 63073 times)

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Richard Myers

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« Reply #100 on: June 09, 2007, 09:50:00 PM »
You are very correct, Sister Liane, from what I can see in regards to there being statutes and judgments prior to Israel. I can name a few. We find them in Scripture. But, I don't see any Biblical evidence to suggest that all of the statutes and judgments given to Israel were given in their same form prior to then. The punishment spelled out for Israel, a theocracy, as you would argue, under the control of God, could be more harsh. There was no such system in place prior to Israel that we can find in Scripture. The need arose because of the sins of Jacob's family and their captivity in Egypt where they became slaves.

I find no record of any kind of theocracy prior to Israel. These statutes and judgments were very specific in regards to punishment. They were intended for a nation, not independent families. I agree that that the moral laws were not just for Israel, but for all of humanity before and after Israel, for they are moral in nature. The ceremonial were shadows and are no longer binding. But, the application of the moral laws with their spelled out punishment was directed at Israel and and again I find nothing in Scripture to suggest that they were given prior to Israel in the form given to Moses.

Also you say "Moses was given the written record of God's ways for all generations to follow when they walk with God." I think this is the point where we are having a problem. We agree that the moral laws remain binding, but not as given to Moses. As it was given to Moses it included punishments that we do not consider appropriate today as we are not a theocracy.

As for 9, I am not sure what you wish to disagree with.

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Liane H

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« Reply #101 on: June 09, 2007, 10:53:00 PM »
Brother Richard:

You Said:

"But, I don't see any Biblical evidence to suggest that all of the statutes and judgments given to Israel were given in their same form prior to then."

This is true, but we do not also know that they were not given either. God gave three important things before Moses, His Commandments, His Statutes and His Laws.

The only thing left out was the judgments given to Abraham, but the other three were given.

Now from what we know about the written statutes, laws and commandments, which ones would you suggest that God might have left out before that He gave to them to Moses?

Were the Ceremonial Laws left out before that time? What would have God not given before Moses that was needed and given to the Children of Israel after four hundred years of captivity? Did man change that much from Noah to Moses?

Though God could not be seen as did Adam and Eve after the fall God still was in direct contact with the people through those He communicated what the people should do and not do.

   

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Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Liane H

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Binding Aspects of the Mosaic Law
« Reply #102 on: June 09, 2007, 11:08:00 PM »
Finally found it:

Adam taught his descendants the law of God, and it was handed down from father to son through successive generations. But notwithstanding the gracious provision for man's redemption, there were few who accepted it and rendered obedience. By transgression the world became so vile that it was necessary to cleanse it by the Flood from its corruption. The law was preserved by Noah and his family, and Noah taught his descendants the Ten Commandments. As men again departed from God, the Lord chose Abraham, of whom He declared, "Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." Genesis 26:5. To him was given the rite of circumcision, which was a sign that those who received it were devoted to the service of God--a pledge that they would remain separate from idolatry, and would obey the law of God. The failure of Abraham's descendants to keep this pledge, as shown in their disposition to form alliances with the heathen and adopt their practices, was the cause of their sojourn and bondage in Egypt. But in their intercourse with idolaters, and their forced submission to the Egyptians, the divine precepts became still further corrupted with the vile and cruel teachings of heathenism. Therefore                                                                             then the Lord brought them forth from Egypt, He came down upon Sinai, enshrouded in glory and surrounded by His angels, and in awful majesty spoke His law in the hearing of all the people.  {PP 363.2}

He did not even then trust His precepts to the memory of a people who were prone to forget His requirements, but wrote them upon tables of stone. He would remove from Israel all possibility of mingling heathen traditions with His holy precepts, or of confounding His requirements with human ordinances or customs. But He did not stop with giving them the precepts of the Decalogue. The people had shown themselves so easily led astray that He would leave no door of temptation unguarded. Moses was commanded to write, as God should bid him, judgments and laws giving minute instruction as to what was required. These directions relating to the duty of the people to God, to one another, and to the stranger were only the principles of the Ten Commandments amplified and given in a specific manner, that none need err. They were designed to guard the sacredness of the ten precepts engraved on the tables of stone.  {PP 364.1}

If man had kept the law of God, as given to Adam after his fall, preserved by Noah, and observed by Abraham, there would have been no necessity for the ordinance of circumcision. And if the descendants of Abraham had kept the covenant, of which circumcision was a sign, they would never have been seduced into idolatry, nor would it have been necessary for them to suffer a life of bondage in Egypt; they would have kept God's law in mind, and there would have been no necessity for it to be proclaimed from Sinai or engraved upon the tables of stone. And had the people practiced the principles of the Ten Commandments, there would have been no need of the additional directions given to Moses.  {PP 364.2}

------------------
Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Thomas M

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« Reply #103 on: June 10, 2007, 03:34:00 AM »
Those are absolutely fantastic quotations from the Spirit of Prophecy, Sister Liane.
I wonder if I understand correctly. The ten commandments are the universal law of God once given to Adam and transmitted to his descendants. As need arose, God gave additional, specific statutes which were in fact either 1) detailed amplifications of what was already embodied in the ten commandments and 2) statutes to cover the new situations that disobedience and disregard for the ten commanments produced. An example of the second type is stated as circumcision as given to Abraham.

The implication is that any statute that we find written in the Pentateuch that is still binding is to be inferred from the ten commandments. Inversely, in any specific prophetic dispensation, any new statute that may be needed might also be inferred from the ten commandments (unless it is in the second category, such as circumcision).

In the prophetic dispensation of Jesus, a statute in the first category, an amplification or specific application of the ten commandments might be "a new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another." An example of the second might be baptism, which is not found anywhere as such in the Pentateuch (unless it is hidden in the purity codes), and only obliquely suggested by such passages as the healing of Namaan. The first would in principle go back to Adam. The second apparently only goes back to the New Testamnet.

Going back to my ten commandments plus idea, articles 21 to 23 in the Fundamental Beliefs can therefore be seen as the practical application of the ten commandments as God guided His people in the last days according to the specific needs of the times. As such, they correspond in content (not in cononicity!) to the civil and ceremonial Mosaic laws, which were needed for that time.

So we should relate to the Pentateuch from several points of view:
1) How does a specific statute relate to the ten commandments, and does it have an abiding application or not?
2) How does a specific statute relate to the particular needs of our own time, which are identified for us in the Fundamental Beliefs, articles 21-23, which are in fact a very succinct summary of Spirit of Prophecy principles?
3) Are some of the statutes in the Bible that arose because of the crisis of sin still binding today, or have they been superceded because of changing circumstances? A possible example of that might be the cities of refuge.

These are the things that come to the surface for me as I read Sister Liane's extraordinary quotation from Patriarchs and Prophets.

As you can see, I am trying to get a firm grasp on principles of interpretation, before I get specific with myself and others). I'm sorry to harp on that, but I find myself in trouble as I engage in discussion with people generally (not on this forum). A great deal of the results of any study depend on the presuppositions in the point of departure. Also, this question is so broad, that we can never get any practical results unless the rules of the game are clear and limited from the beginning.

There is another issue nagging my mind. That is the fact that so many people over the centuries have already done this, not just various Jewish individuals and groups. They have all come to differing conclusions, based largely on their starting presuppositions. There is a danger that one or more of us might suddenly come up with something that conflicts with the principles of the Advent Movement. The Spirit of Prophecy should protect one from that, but observation shows that not always to be the case. While studying the Bible with only the motivation of finding truth is admirable, it generally ignores some vital assumptions. I'd hate to participate in the founding of an Advenist splinter group of people going around with a little shovel hanging from their belts anathemetizing all Adventists who use flush toilets.


quote:
Originally posted by Liane H:
Finally found it:

Adam taught his descendants the law of God, and it was handed down from father to son through successive generations. But notwithstanding the gracious provision for man's redemption, there were few who accepted it and rendered obedience. By transgression the world became so vile that it was necessary to cleanse it by the Flood from its corruption. The law was preserved by Noah and his family, and Noah taught his descendants the Ten Commandments. As men again departed from God, the Lord chose Abraham, of whom He declared, "Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." Genesis 26:5. To him was given the rite of circumcision, which was a sign that those who received it were devoted to the service of God--a pledge that they would remain separate from idolatry, and would obey the law of God. The failure of Abraham's descendants to keep this pledge, as shown in their disposition to form alliances with the heathen and adopt their practices, was the cause of their sojourn and bondage in Egypt. But in their intercourse with idolaters, and their forced submission to the Egyptians, the divine precepts became still further corrupted with the vile and cruel teachings of heathenism. Therefore                                                                             then the Lord brought them forth from Egypt, He came down upon Sinai, enshrouded in glory and surrounded by His angels, and in awful majesty spoke His law in the hearing of all the people.  {PP 363.2}

He did not even then trust His precepts to the memory of a people who were prone to forget His requirements, but wrote them upon tables of stone. He would remove from Israel all possibility of mingling heathen traditions with His holy precepts, or of confounding His requirements with human ordinances or customs. But He did not stop with giving them the precepts of the Decalogue. The people had shown themselves so easily led astray that He would leave no door of temptation unguarded. Moses was commanded to write, as God should bid him, judgments and laws giving minute instruction as to what was required. These directions relating to the duty of the people to God, to one another, and to the stranger were only the principles of the Ten Commandments amplified and given in a specific manner, that none need err. They were designed to guard the sacredness of the ten precepts engraved on the tables of stone.  {PP 364.1}

If man had kept the law of God, as given to Adam after his fall, preserved by Noah, and observed by Abraham, there would have been no necessity for the ordinance of circumcision. And if the descendants of Abraham had kept the covenant, of which circumcision was a sign, they would never have been seduced into idolatry, nor would it have been necessary for them to suffer a life of bondage in Egypt; they would have kept God's law in mind, and there would have been no necessity for it to be proclaimed from Sinai or engraved upon the tables of stone. And had the people practiced the principles of the Ten Commandments, there would have been no need of the additional directions given to Moses.  {PP 364.2}




Liane H

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« Reply #104 on: June 10, 2007, 07:16:00 AM »
Hi Brother Thomas:

Great post though you write at a much higher level than I could ever do and it takes me time to check certain words to know their meaning I like what you post a great deal.

I never finished High School though I did pass the City College of Pasadena entrance exam, but with other factors I have limited scope in knowledge, but I do try.

Anyway a point that I was looking for also was found:

"From the first, the great controversy had been upon the law of God. Satan had sought to prove that God was unjust, that His law was faulty, and that the good of the universe required it to be changed. In attacking the law, he aimed to overthrow the authority of its Author."  {FLB 80.6}  

The Holy Precepts were even before the earth was made and was in Heaven for all to know. It is God's great laws that Satan did not like and caused the fall in heaven and on this little planet give to us in which to live.

God never leaves any being or place without the knowledge needed to obey and follow Him in all things. There never has been a cover up or lack from God to where we need to stand in our lives to have a happy and good life.

Everything has and is provided to us for which we live from God. Those that find the Law of God a burden are in rebellion against their Creator who knows what is best for our lives.

------------------
Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Mimi

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« Reply #105 on: June 10, 2007, 07:28:00 AM »
Out of all the thoughts you presented, Thomas, I do hate to land on this one - I'd hate to participate in the founding of an Advenist splinter group of people going around with a little shovel hanging from their belts anathemetizing all Adventists who use flush toilets.

A word of assurance: "It won't happen!" That is not the purpose of our study. I know of no one on the forum who is that radical. However, during the time of trouble, we may be reduced to using those little shovels in the woods.

  For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. Psalm 119:89 

Richard Myers

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« Reply #106 on: June 10, 2007, 12:55:00 PM »
 
quote:
Originally posted by Liane H:

Now from what we know about the written statutes, laws and commandments, which ones would you suggest that God might have left out before that He gave to them to Moses?

Were the Ceremonial Laws left out before that time? What would have God not given before Moses that was needed and given to the Children of Israel after four hundred years of captivity? Did man change that much from Noah to Moses?


I cannot presume to know what is not written. But, I see Biblical principle that would indicate that the statutes and judgments were given to help man keep the Ten Commandments as He saw need. The system that established a nation is different than that which was used to deal with families. There was no high priest that ministered in a Sanctuary. Offerings could be made anywhere, but not so according to the Mosaic law. The laws given to Israel pertained specifically to Israel. There were ceremonial laws in place prior to Israel, but again they were of a different nature. We are talking apple and oranges when it comes to the specific commands included in these statutes. It is obvious that there was no ark of the covenant, no candlestick, no course of priests to make the offerings, no laver in which the priests must wash. No most holy place, no holy place, no bird to be ripped apart, no blood to sprinkle upon the curtain, no etc. etc.

The statutes that were given to Moses that pertained to the civil laws of Israel were given in such a manner to meet the needs of the nation. The same applies to the ceremonial law. We must make a distinction. This is where we need to begin our study. We need to discern how this can be done. The moral nature of these statutes did not disappear with the coming of Christ as did the ceremonial laws.

The economies of the world who legislate in an attempt to provide security and morality can learn much from the economy of Israel. And, churches, families, and individuals are to study the moral aspect of these laws that they may be blessed to learn more about the laws that we live by.

But, I don't think we are ready for churches or states to begin stoning the Sabbath breaker or the glutton. Or how about the homosexual or the adulterer? We need to better understand the nature of the Mosaic law and the application to be made today.

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

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« Reply #107 on: June 10, 2007, 01:17:00 PM »
The sanctity of marriage was such that departure from the marriage was penalized by stoning. Same with the Sabbath. Break either of these two laws and the penalty was death. There is a connection - God sanctified both at the time of creation.
  For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. Psalm 119:89 

Liane H

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« Reply #108 on: June 10, 2007, 01:30:00 PM »
We must remember that God did set up before Moses a very simple forum of sacrifices and we see this very early on in Genesis with Cain and Able. Which did God take note of as being correct?

I am sure that there were instructions in how to do this given by God to Adam and then tot he sons of Adam.

After the falling away in being in bondage God was going to imprint into the people His written word in what was to be done so that these laws, statutes, judgments will remind them what they should do.

God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. He gives the same principles over and over again to each generation in their need to follow Him. There are no apples and oranges, but a centerpiece of truths that expand each time for us to know and understand in the age that we live in.

It is for us to seek these treasures and make them practical in our own lives.    

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Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Richard Myers

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« Reply #109 on: June 10, 2007, 02:20:00 PM »
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thomas M:

I wonder if I understand correctly. The ten commandments are the universal law of God once given to Adam and transmitted to his descendants. As need arose, God gave additional, specific statutes which were in fact either 1) detailed amplifications of what was already embodied in the ten commandments and 2) statutes to cover the new situations that disobedience and disregard for the ten commanments produced. An example of the second type is stated as circumcision as given to Abraham.

I believe this is very accurate. Let me add to this thought. The Ten Commandments were not given in their present state in heaven. There was no need. But, when there became a need, then we were given the Ten Commandments. They are eternal, but they are not needed by all in the universe. They were specifically designed for us in our particular need.

This is a Biblical principle and we can discern this from Scripture.
 

quote:

Going back to my ten commandments plus idea, articles 21 to 23 in the Fundamental Beliefs can therefore be seen as the practical application of the ten commandments as God guided His people in the last days according to the specific needs of the times. As such, they correspond in content (not in cononicity!) to the civil and ceremonial Mosaic laws, which were needed for that time.


That is an interesting thought. The ceremonial laws are no longer binding, but we have some "ceremonies" that are not shadows but have taken their place. One that comes quickly to mind is the Lord's Supper. It is not a "moral" law, but it is part of our church service. It is an important part of our service, but it has nothing to do with moral law or the old ceremonial law that pointed to the future ministry of Jesus. The Lord's supper points us back to the cross and to the current ministry of our Lord.

quote:

So we should relate to the Pentateuch from several points of view:
1) How does a specific statute relate to the ten commandments, and does it have an abiding application or not?
2) How does a specific statute relate to the particular needs of our own time, which are identified for us in the Fundamental Beliefs, articles 21-23, which are in fact a very succinct summary of Spirit of Prophecy principles?


I don't think we can say that the FBs are a succinct summary of the Spirit of Prophecy. I think there is too much left out to say this. But, we ought to be on track if the FBs are Bibical to say that they are like the statutes and judgments, given to help us keep the law of God.

quote:

3) Are some of the statutes in the Bible that arose because of the crisis of sin still binding today, or have they been superceded because of changing circumstances? A possible example of that might be the cities of refuge.

Great example.  This speaks to the nation Israel and their theocracy. We must look beyond the definitive statute to see the moral principle involved. The statute directed the judiciary of the nation. This is not binding upon the nations today, but the principle involved ought to be. It is not a ceremonial law so it is moral. But, here we have an example that deals precisely with our difficulty at hand. There was no statute with identical language prior to Israel and we certainly can't use this language today. But, the moral nature of the statute is for us.

It is for us to discern the "morality" of the law. It is for us to benefit from the principle that God gave to the world even though it was directed specifically to Israel.

quote:

There is another issue nagging my mind. That is the fact that so many people over the centuries have already done this, not just various Jewish individuals and groups. They have all come to differing conclusions, based largely on their starting presuppositions. There is a danger that one or more of us might suddenly come up with something that conflicts with the principles of the Advent Movement. The Spirit of Prophecy should protect one from that, but observation shows that not always to be the case. While studying the Bible with only the motivation of finding truth is admirable, it generally ignores some vital assumptions. I'd hate to participate in the founding of an Adventist splinter group of people going around with a little shovel hanging from their belts anathemetizing all Adventists who use flush toilets.


It is no wonder there are so many different interpretations. The same thing applies to why there are so many different religions. If we reject light, if we reject Scripture, if we do not surrender to Christ fully, then how is it the Holy Spirit is going to give us discernment of advanced light? He won't. The cutting edge of truth will be given to those who are walking in the light and are where God wants to lead His people. He will not give the Baptists who preach you will burn in hell forever, the advanced light. He will not give the Hindus advanced light on the gospel. He is leading His people into one flock, out of Babylon.


Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Mimi

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« Reply #110 on: June 10, 2007, 05:47:00 PM »
All of a sudden, this subject has expanded to the point that I need time to consider the depth of possibilities. And I am sure, even then, much will have been missed. Oh, to comprehend the vastness of His law!
  For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. Psalm 119:89 

Richard Myers

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« Reply #111 on: June 10, 2007, 06:58:00 PM »
Amen, my mind is expanding to better understand this vast subject.
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« Reply #112 on: June 10, 2007, 09:27:00 PM »
It is huge, actually. A careful re-reading of the OT with this in mind will give us a broader understanding.
  For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. Psalm 119:89 

Liane H

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« Reply #113 on: June 11, 2007, 07:00:00 AM »
As a study and life changing experience I believe the Mosaic Laws are wonderful to learn many things about the character of God and that which helps us to walk the very narrow and wonderful life of following God.

Binding upon the church these statute and judgments has not been given to us today just as the Feasts Days are not, but I do seen a powerful revelation in learning of them and incorporating some of them into our lives.

I think the health message is one of the most important to learn. God gave them their manna from heaven and gave them their water in the desert and those that did so were blessed.

The same is true today. The right arm of the church is a powerful and great tool in which to learn of God's blessings and character for our lives.

Exodus:

15:26   And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.  

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Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Thomas M

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« Reply #114 on: June 11, 2007, 07:31:00 AM »
I was especially interested in Brother Richard's remark about ceremonial law and the New Testament equivalent, with the specific mention of the Lord's Supper.

The idea seems to converge with mine in terms of ten commandments plus. The plus area may change, perhaps during the times of different prophets (the seat of the temple was changed to Jerusalem in David's time for example), but at least with the coming of Christ.

The questions that come to mind are: 1) Are there other New Testament ceremonies that take the place or function of the Old Testament typical ceremonies? 2) Should such ceremonies, that we seem to find appropriate if not obligatory, be evidenced in the Law, or is it sufficient that they are evidenced in the New Testament? This may seem off subject, but I think it is relevant to how we understand Mosaic Law and its binding character.

In the Anabaptist-Pietist traditions that preceded the rise of Adventism, there was a conscious attempt to identify all such New Testament ceremonies and practice them. As we compare Adventism, Protestantism, and Anabaptist-Pietist traditions, it seems to me that Adventism is at least a partial heir of the Anabaptist-Pietist traditions. Rather than seven sacraments of Catholicism or the two ordinances of Protestantism, there is an Adventist equivalent to the old Anabaptist ordinances.

Among these ordanances found in 18th-century German Seventh Day Baptist practice (a tradition that disappeared before the rise of Adventism, for the most part), there were the following.

1) Baptism of believers by trine immersion; 2) laying on of hands; 3) Love feast; 4) The washing of feet; 5) The Lordís supper; 6) The greeting with a holy kiss; 7) The anointing and laying hands on the sick; 8) Blessing of children.

The Adventist practice is very similar. Adventists differ in the mode of baptism, single backward immersion rather than triple forward; in laying on of hands only for ordination and not after every baptism; and the rejection of the Love Feast and the holy kiss in greeting. I understand that the holy kiss in greeting was practiced among early Sabbatarian Adventists. The practices are remarkably similar, based as they are on a literal and comprehensive view of the New Testament. In sum, Adventists preserve of these 1) baptism by immersion, 2) laying on of hands, 3) footwashing, 4) the Lord's supper, 5) anointing of the sick, 6) and blessing of children, that is six out of eight.

The second question, whether these are evidenced by the Old Testament or the Books of Moses specifically is hard to answer straight off. 18th-century German Seventh Day Baptists did rely heavily on the Books of Moses, at one point even instituting the high priestly regalia. The most important sources for identifying such Old Testament evidence are missing however, as the writings of the Eckerlins have all been destroyed, and these were the most prominent ones having such interests.

Would it be appropriate in summary to say that the ceremonial law of Moses is replaced by the New Testament ordinances of the church? That is my sentiment.

If this is a proper way of viewing the ceremonial laws of Moses, that accounts for a sizeable chunk of the material on the Excel page. The shadows and types of things to come are replaced by memorials from the life, death and resurrection of Christ. That, in principle, would also account for the neglect of Love Feast and the holy kiss, which do not seem so clearly memorials of Christ, as all of the other ordinances are.

Thomas

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Myers:
It is no wonder there are so many different interpretations. The same thing applies to why there are so many different religions. If we reject light, if we reject Scripture, if we do not surrender to Christ fully, then how is it the Holy Spirit is going to give us discernment of advanced light? He won't. The cutting edge of truth will be given to those who are walking in the light and are where God wants to lead His people. He will not give the Baptists who preach you will burn in hell forever, the advanced light. He will not give the Hindus advanced light on the gospel. He is leading His people into one flock, out of Babylon.



Mimi

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« Reply #115 on: June 11, 2007, 10:49:00 AM »
Thomas wrote:  
quote:
Would it be appropriate in summary to say that the ceremonial law of Moses is replaced by the New Testament ordinances of the church? That is my sentiment.

If this is a proper way of viewing the ceremonial laws of Moses, that accounts for a sizeable chunk of the material on the Excel page. The shadows and types of things to come are replaced by memorials from the life, death and resurrection of Christ. That, in principle, would also account for the neglect of Love Feast and the holy kiss, which do not seem so clearly memorials of Christ, as all of the other ordinances are.


I like that idea, Thomas.

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Richard Myers

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« Reply #116 on: June 11, 2007, 03:58:00 PM »
 
quote:
Originally posted by Liane H:

Binding upon the church these statute and judgments has not been given to us today just as the Feasts Days are not, but I do seen a powerful revelation in learning of them and incorporating some of them into our lives.

Sister Liane, our supposition is that the moral law is still binding. While we can see that the punishment for many of the statutes were for a theocracy and do not appear to apply, we can see that in other statutes that they in fact apply and are binding upon the church. Why do you think otherwise?

A clear example in the order of the Seventh-day Adventist Church are some of the statutes that relate to the health message. Part of our test of fellowship states that we will refrain from eating unclean food. This is a direct enforcement of the Old Testament statute.

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

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« Reply #117 on: June 11, 2007, 04:22:00 PM »
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thomas M:

Would it be appropriate in summary to say that the ceremonial law of Moses is replaced by the New Testament ordinances of the church? That is my sentiment.

If this is a proper way of viewing the ceremonial laws of Moses, that accounts for a sizeable chunk of the material on the Excel page. The shadows and types of things to come are replaced by memorials from the life, death and resurrection of Christ. That, in principle, would also account for the neglect of Love Feast and the holy kiss, which do not seem so clearly memorials of Christ, as all of the other ordinances are.


Never thought of it that way, but it appears to be accurate. I don't see a direct relationship between very many from Old to New Testament.

Moses gave the statutes having received them from God. There was no written Record until that time. Today, we have Bibles, and in the Bible we are instructed by both Jesus and the Apostles how we are to conduct our lives and the ordinances of our church service. It is good to see that other churches perceived many of the ordinances correctly. And of course there are many who add their tradition to the Word.

In the Old Testament the church was commanded to make sacrifice that foreshadowed the death of Christ. Today, in the New Testament we have been instructed as to ordinances in the church that help us to remember the Sacrifice of Christ and His current ministry.

I don't see a direct relationship between the two, but there surely is a similarity in that these ordinances in both dispensations have nothing to do with the "moral" law, but rather they are lessons for us to learn of and to remember Christ, His love, and His great Sacrifice.

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Thomas M

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Binding Aspects of the Mosaic Law
« Reply #118 on: June 12, 2007, 01:09:00 AM »
I don't see a direct relationship between the ceremonial laws and the church ordinances either. Even the Lord's supper is only tenuously related to the Passover. But there seems to be an agreement, at least between the two of us, Brother Richard, that the ceremonial laws are replaced by the ordinances, and that they have in common the fact that they are not moral in character.

In sum, might we say that all of the ceremonial laws come to an end with Christ's ministry on earth? That is my sentiment. That would include all that are types of his life and death, all that are types of his heavenly ministry, and all that are ceremonial, but not types of Christ.

Instead of ceremonial law, we have the six ordinances of the church: baptism by immersion, laying on of hands, footwashing, the Lord's supper, blessing of children, and anointing of the sick. These are all memorials of Christ's earthly ministry.

With these principles clearly in mind, I would review the Excel file and point out one or two issues. In number 47, the law against sacrificing to idols is considered ceremonial, no doubt because it is in reference to sacrifice. At the same time, it is considered binding. Just as a matter of clarity, I would suggest that all prohibitions of idolatry are moral rather than ceremonial, even though the may be compared with positive ceremonial injunctions. It is a more elegent solution to see all ceremonial laws as coming to an end in Christ.

By the same token, number 167 relating to eating meat on the third day, should be seen in my view as a health law rather than ceremonial, and still binding in principle. It speaks against the contemporary habit of ripening meat, which also contains blood. This is an issue that Adventists ought to take into consideration from a health standpoint. I suggest discussion of this point.

While there may be some clarification of a few other laws marked ceremonial as to whether they are part of a ceremonial purity code or health laws, those are the two points on the ceremonial law that caught my eye.

Thomas

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Myers:
Never thought of it that way, but it appears to be accurate. I don't see a direct relationship between very many from Old to New Testament.

Moses gave the statutes having received them from God. There was no written Record until that time. Today, we have Bibles, and in the Bible we are instructed by both Jesus and the Apostles how we are to conduct our lives and the ordinances of our church service. It is good to see that other churches perceived many of the ordinances correctly. And of course there are many who add their tradition to the Word.

In the Old Testament the church was commanded to make sacrifice that foreshadowed the death of Christ. Today, in the New Testament we have been instructed as to ordinances in the church that help us to remember the Sacrifice of Christ and His current ministry.

I don't see a direct relationship between the two, but there surely is a similarity in that these ordinances in both dispensations have nothing to do with the "moral" law, but rather they are lessons for us to learn of and to remember Christ, His love, and His great Sacrifice.



Richard Myers

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« Reply #119 on: June 12, 2007, 11:12:00 AM »
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thomas M:
I don't see a direct relationship between the ceremonial laws and the church ordinances either. Even the Lord's supper is only tenuously related to the Passover. But there seems to be an agreement, at least between the two of us, Brother Richard, that the ceremonial laws are replaced by the ordinances, and that they have in common the fact that they are not moral in character.

Amen!

quote:
Originally posted by Thomas M:

...I would review the Excel file and point out one or two issues. In number 47, the law against sacrificing to idols is considered ceremonial, no doubt because it is in reference to sacrifice. At the same time, it is considered binding. Just as a matter of clarity, I would suggest that all prohibitions of idolatry are moral rather than ceremonial, even though the may be compared with positive ceremonial injunctions. It is a more elegent solution to see all ceremonial laws as coming to an end in Christ.


I agree. This is not a ceremonial statute in the least. There is nothing ceremonial about it. It is one of few moral statutes besides the Ten Commandments that the new church was given. To confuse this with the ceremonial law is to be way off the mark. I am not studying the excel study, Brother Thomas, so I cannot comment on other than what you post here.

quote:
Originally posted by Thomas M:

By the same token, number 167 relating to eating meat on the third day, should be seen in my view as a health law rather than ceremonial, and still binding in principle. It speaks against the contemporary habit of ripening meat, which also contains blood. This is an issue that Adventists ought to take into consideration from a health standpoint. I suggest discussion of this point.

While there may be some clarification of a few other laws marked ceremonial as to whether they are part of a ceremonial purity code or health laws, those are the two points on the ceremonial law that caught my eye.


I think whomever did this other study has created confusion where there need be none. When we speak of ceremonial laws, we really ought to limit this to the Old Testament types and shadows. While we have "ceremonies"  today, we ought to limit our verbiage to other than the word ceremonial. Ordinances seems to be the acceptable terminology.

Brother Thomas, I think in this study we are all of the same mind in this respect and are able to move to the moral statutes of the Old Testament which will include the civil statutes given for a theocracy. The sticking point for which I have not yet discovered the principles, is the removal of those things that are no longer binding in these "civil" statutes. It would appear that these statutes , not being ceremonial, are in fact moral. Being moral, then they have meaning for us today. The idea that homosexuality may run rampant in society with no legislation seems unlikely. But, I do not think that the penalty today ought to be capital punishment as in the civil statutes given in Scripture.

And as for stoning the glutton, I cannot even bring myself to say that he ought to be imprisoned.  So, I am shamefully lost in this maze. I know that there are lessons for us to day in these statutes and they are very important as we labor with others in the world. We may not darken the counsel of God with words that are just plain foolishness that did not come from Him, as so many have done and continue to do.

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.