Protestant Principles

[Sister Marie]

We are told to have High Standards in the Church. If we don't do some kind of control on this we will have everything but High Standards in the Church. The results of which we are seeing tremendously today.

All I can say about the world is if we do not show forth the Truth God has given us as Christians and as a Christian Nation, we will see all kinds of evilness take the place of good, which we are also seeing today.

Do we want God's way in the Church and the Nation enough to do something about it? Does God want us to just sit back and let what comes come? That is the question I face as I think on these things brother.

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With Christian Love,
Sister Marie

[Richard Myers]

America was a Protestant nation. As Protestants we do not believe in forcing the conscience. A man must be allowed to decide what truth is for himself. But, does this mean that a church member may sin openly? Does this mean that there ought to be no laws in society to restrict immorality? These are questions that have answers, but we do  not see them very much today. Sadly, America has forsaken its Protestant heritage.

[Liane H]

God’s laws are good and can bless a life that follows them, but only by choice, not force. I had learned a little about my family tree on the Wheelock line and found out that they were Puritans that came over from Europe and settled in the New World and this family tree goes back to the late 1500’s and early 1600’s.  I also learned that Benjamin the first of the children to be born on this soil became the Tither of his church and community. .  

What were Tithers? They were the ones that checked as each person entered church on Sunday morning. If the name was not checked as attendance he was responsible to go to the member’s home and find out why they were not there. Only excuse one could give was they were ill, but upon if this was proven they would collect the title. If they were not proven to be sick then they were carted off to jail or displayed in the center of the town in shackles for all to see.    

The Puritans did not come to the New World seeking freedom from persecution as much as they felt there was a great opportunity for them to found a Puritan nation/church in the New World.

In every town in the New World this was the common way of church/state was done. They were no freer to worship as they wished than in Europe.  It depended on what town you lived in and how many of that faith that were in that town that no matter what you believed you had to go to that one church no matter what your faith was.

Every person in that town was required to pay a tax that would support the minister and the church. This was taken from them each week no matter how poor or rich everyone had to pay.

The Bill of Rights was written with this in mind so that each person could worship as they saw fit and/or not worship at all and no force of attendance would happen again.

This Protestant Nation had some growing up to do. It did not happen overnight and in some ways some things did not change. Such as the Blue Laws which forced people to not do business on Sunday and sadly many of those Blue Laws are still in affect in every state, but not enforced in all.

It would not take much for these laws to be brought back to full force all over this Nation.  In some states like Georgia it is in force and others like California it is not.  Soon, very soon we will see it come back all over this Nation. Indeed one Nation under God with no freedom to worship as you wish.      

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Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

[This message has been edited by Liane H (edited 01-04-2007).]

[Richard Myers]

And as Protestants, do we push for laws restricting the rights of women to abort babies? And, how about drug use? Do we want laws against using drugs?

[Cop]

 

quote:And as Protestants, do we push for laws restricting the rights of women to abort babies? And, how about drug use? Do we want laws against using drugs?

It is a sad commentary of how low our morals and ideas of what is right or wrong  have sunk that such a question needs to be asked today.

Twenty-five years ago, no Protestant church would have ever supported abortion, homosexuality, drug use, etc. But now a Christian who opposes wickedness is considered judgemental, 'holier than thou', uncaring, and a bigot by the worldly and even professed Christians.

How much lower will God allow Man to sink?

[Liane H]

Very soon January 21st will be here. What is important about January 21st, that is the day that Roe vs Wade became law. That is the day since then that around the United States those that apose abortion gather together to make their voice known.

On the Internet is the Right to Life Foundation. When I lived down in Los Angeles I use to go to their headquarters in the Valley to check on what was going on and what I could pass out to make people aware of wrongness of abortion.

I check out legislation regarding any laws that deal with homosexuality and drugs. When I find out about these bills in the Senate and the House I write and call them to let them know that I do not support such things.

When I see anything about that which will restrick my right to worship I also do the above.

We are in a paradox though. On the one hand the moral values that I care about and support will drive us further from the freedom to worship and keeping the separation between church and state by those that also take the stand of those moral values.

If I take the side of those that believe in separation of church and state then I am in line with those that do not see the immoral issue of homosexuality and drug use.

For better or worse the issues of morality are between God and man and I must allow them the same freedom to do what they do so that I can do what I do. That is the system. My concern is far more about worship and sharing the gospel and having the freedom to do it while I can.

No law is going to change a heart, only Jesus Christ can do that. So as long as I have the freedom to witness of that which I believe I am going to make use of that freedom for as long as I can.

Satan is no fool when it comes to evil. He knows that he has no hope so he has created this paradox that no matter which way one goes we lose, but Jesus Christ is our only hope and way and He will be coming soon.      

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Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

[This message has been edited by Liane H (edited 01-04-2007).]

[Richard Myers]

 

quote:Originally posted by Liane H:

We are in a paradox though. On the one hand the moral values that I care about and support willd rive us further from the freedom to worship and keeping the separation between church and state by those that also take the stand of those moral values.

If I take the side of those that believe in separation of church and state then I am in line with those that do not see the immoral issue of homosexuality and drug use.

For better or worse the issues of morality are between God and man and I must allow them the same freedom to do what they do so that I can do what I do. That is the system. My concern is far more about worship and sharing the gospel and having the freedom to do it while I can.

No law is going to change a heart, only Jesus Christ can do that. So as long as I have the freedom to witness of that which I believe I am going to make use of that freedom for as long as I can.

Dear sister you see the battle. But, because there are those who misrepresent the Biblical position on church and state, makes it even more important that there are those who present the correct position.

Protestants have never seen immorality as something to allow until the last 50 years. The laws of our land a hundred years ago revealed a moral foundation from Scripture. It is only today that we see a failure on the part of the church to restrict immorality. Now that there are some who are doing so, they wish to incorporate restrictions on worship which is wrong. We must keep the two separate. Of course we ought to restrict personal freedom to be immoral by legislation. It has always been so.

Do not buy into the liberal agenda that homosexuals have a right to be homosexual. The next thing that society will accept is that the homosexual has the right to engage in sex with children. No, dear sister, we are to make laws to force conformity to moral standards in areas that deal with the last six commandments, but not the first four.

Of all Christians, we ought to get this right and present it to the world as the correct Christian model. This we have not done.

[JimB]

Years ago there use to be laws against adultery, being pregnant out of wedlock, sodomy, etc...

Do we think that today's society is better now that we don't enforce such laws? Or has allowing these things to happen helped in our decline?

[Liane H]

Years ago women and children were treated just like cattle, property. Sweatshops where both women and children worked long hours under horrible conditions with no time for rest.

There may have been laws regarding those things but a women and children often had to suffer under abuse of their husbands for life with no where to turn or get help.

Incest was done and kept in the closet for no one to know because the children had to endure the suffering until they could get away.

It was not all good years ago, but it is not better now either.I wish that the moral values of the world were better and more so in the United States.

I have always believed and still do that your rights end where mine begins. Live and let live. We cannot force either the first four of the commandments than we can the last six. Only God can impress the heart to change and glorify Him.

All I can do is live the life that God asks me to do and be a reflective light of His values for all to see. All I can do is witness in my own life that others can see God doing for me that I desire that they have themselves.

It starts in each of our homes and families. How we talk, how we walk as an example for others to see is the only way.

Yes we do need laws that protect the general public as a whole. That is why we have yellow dash lines on the roads. It tells us where the boundaries are for each of us.

the only consolation I have regarding how the world is going is that the signs around us tell us that Jesus is coming very soon. There are some things we will not be able to stop no matter what we do.

While the church slept Satan standards came into not only our world, but right into our homes and churches. It really is our own fault that the world has come to where it is now. Only God can save us from it all.

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Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

[Richard Myers]

If we do not see this argument clearly, then who will?

We are to have moral laws. Protestant principles require this. The freedom of conscience applies to matters of worship, not freedom to hurt others. The laws of a nation are to be based upon the last six commandments. This is the only standard of morality that the world knows. There is no other. It makes no difference if you are Hindu, Muslim, Protestant or Catholic, or atheist. The laws of a nation are to protect its citizens. They are to be moral laws and thus the only guide we have is God's law.

It does not take a lot of discussion to realize that if we do not legislate the last six commandments, we have a very immoral society. Freedom is not freedom to hurt others. Do not kill, do not steal, do not commit adultery, do not lie in court, take care of your parents. Why would any object to such laws?

Once we understand that society will have laws that force compliance with some standard, we have to admit that the only standard that we have is God's. What can we say to those who object? Sorry.

On the other hand when you have a society that is not Christian, you have a serious problem. So, as we move further away from our Protestant heritage we can expect that immorality will spread rapidly. This is what we see in the US today. Other countries are in advance because do not have a Protestant heritage.

In the US we now have many who are not Protestant and many who profess to be, that are not. And, others who are Protestant do not understand what it means.

So, we now have a standard for our laws, if there are enough who want it. As we know, the ones who profess to want morality will overstep their responsibility to move into the first four commandments which is where the true wall of separation exists. Let us better understand the issue so that we do not find ourselves fighting against the truth.

[Liane H]

Brother Richard:

I agree, and there is a but here, if the people do not have the true Jesus in them all their moral laws are meaningless.

What I am saying is that it starts with each individual. We are the ones that have let the immoral aspects of our society to change.

The issue is we changed and then society changed. We were so knee deep in the Laodicean image that we were not doing both in our selves to let Jesus develop the character that was needed that would bring out the correct moral standard that has slipped away from under us and we are now where we do not want to be, but will continue to do until Jesus does the work in us.

What Christianity is doing today is trying to force moral values that they themselves are not living but demand of others. Just see the moral situation in both the Democrats and Republicans Congress and it says it all.

If our leaders of the nation and the leaders in the church do not live and preach as such then people are going to have a hard time accepting those moral values as well.

God has given us the right way, but He also allows us to go the wrong way if we desire to do it. He does not force it upon us. It is called Free Will.

We not only have to have the standard of morality, but we must live it. Those that are not living it will do wrongs when trying to uphold those standards. Force will come sooner or later.

I am all for the standards, but how it is accomplished is a whole other issue.  

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Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

[Richard Myers]

The same principle holds true in the church as in the world. There is to be force applied to certain laws or standards. A man or woman may do as they please. Liberty of conscience is not what the ACLU and many in the church are making it to be.

If a minister refuses to follow the standards set down by the Bible, then he is to be "forceably" removed if he will not go on his own. If one breaks the fourth commandment and will not repent, he or she is to be removed from membership of the church. There is no freedom to believe what you want and remain a church member. The idea that all can do what they want is not a Biblical principle.

God does not force man to worship Him and neither ought we. No man is to be jailed or fined because he does not worship God in a certain manner. This is liberty of conscience. No man has the right to murder another or to steal from him. Where do we get these ideas that freedom of conscience extends to hurting others. No man has the right to sodomize another and say it is his right. This is where the liberal mind has led the world.

And now, because we do not set this principle properly before the world, the "conservatives" will use the wrong standard to enforce legislation upon society dealing with worship. Satan has prepared this situation nicely so that confusion on the subject abounds.

The immoral are to be "forced" to comply with moral laws that deal with relationships between men. Because there are Christians who are immoral does not lessen the standard and the need to have moral laws. The breakdown in society stems from the immorality in the church, but the standard is to be raised not lowered.

There is wisdom in how it is to be done, but let none argue in favor of lowering the standard by using the argument, liberty of conscience. It is not a valid argument.

[Liane H]

Hi Brother Richard:

During my childhood I lived grew up with secular parents. During my teens I lived with a Catholic stepfather and during my young adult life in lived in the world of rock music and hippie values and on top of that I have been and still am a Democrat. I bought into the world hook and bate and I called it freedom. I wanted my freedom more than anything else in my life.

I knew there was a God, but He was not a part of my life. I only saw whites against black, rich against poor, discrimination against Jews and that there was good and bad. I knew we had laws of the land that dictated how we were to behave and follow. What I learned as a child from moving around a lot due to the military I saw values were different in one place and values different in another place.  This confused me greatly growing up in that I did not know what was correct and what was not.

As a small example when I lived in Texas not only could boys and girls see each other during gym, they could even do sports together. When I went to Rhode Island there was a curtain between the boys and girls at gym and they never were allowed to play together. Even moral and Christian values differed from place to place.  

The civil rights movement, the hippie movement all in the 60’s had a great impact in my view of life. I saw what people called Christian Values were the ones that put the Japanese into internment camps where they lost all they had and never got it back. I saw segregation by Christian Values against blacks and the poor.

I saw the United States between the have and have nots and that this country that was claimed to be under God was part of the problem. I saw those that were the underdogs of life by the prejudice and righteous thinking people who called themselves Christians and I saw myself as one of those as underdogs due to my disability. I had a banner I carried against those that I felt were evil in the way they treated others and this called Protestant Principles which is the title of this topic were them that were like that.

What I did not realize was that I was not free at all. I began to see the world as getting ugly with values such as abortion and homosexuality, etc., as wrong and that in some way I was in chains and knew I needed something different. All those years I can look back and see the hand of God trying to reach me, but I was not ready to receive it. It was not until a friend gave me a Bible and my mother came back into my life with her Judaism that He was able to make an inroad into my life.

Since my joining the church I have put the two together believing that as a church, as the remnant of God’s people that we also were and are the underdog against Protestant Principles Values and how we treated people. This nation is no longer under God and though as hard as the mainstream Christian believers may try and they will try to change the course of what is happening here, but will fail. Why? Because this nation has gone in the way of Rome both physically and spiritually. Only God now can save the people and the coming of Jesus is the only cure.

This nation has laws that dictate what we can and cannot do. It is still against the law to murder and steal. It still has punishments they believe to fit the crime. This is also true of many countries that do not have Protestant Principles in their nation.  Though I believe for myself that the six commandments are good and pure values that we should live by they are and belong to God. It would be good for all to live by them, but they are not ones that we can force upon others such as to not covet.

I will not force my Christian values on others. I will respect the laws of the nation and follow them until they force me from being able to worship, as I believe. I live my life by God’s laws, not man. I will obey His commandments in my life and share God and His values wherever I am able to do so.  
       
What I see is that the Protestant Churches and the Rome Catholic church are trying to force their values of God onto all those that do not believe their way. I read this with the Puritans that came here that they were going to make this new world a Puritan faith nation.  Force is against the nature of God. If we choose to live under His principles then we are bound to obey them and suffer the consequences if we don’t. We are not a theocracy nation. What we have been is a nation with religious freedom unknown in this world until now. And that is soon to change. We cannot separate the first four from the six last of God’s Laws. They are all one that are proclaimed by God. They belong to the people who follow Him, not to those that do not. We cannot force God’s principles upon those that do not believe or accept them.

What I know today is within the Seventh-day Adventist church we have standards that are from our God. When we accepted this faith for our lives we are bound by keeping them and living them. Our only authority is within this church and when people break those laws of God we are admonished to enforce them, not force them upon them. If they do not obey then we are told to banish them from the church, we cannot do more than that. Yes we can do many things to help them, but we cannot force them to do right. They must decide what is right and live by it.  

I doubt Brother Richard we will every see the same. As I recall it took God forty years to get Egypt out of Moses. Maybe if I am wrong God still has another ten years to go, but as long as I obey His principles in my life, follow His will in my life and witness of His will in my life I believe that whatever these Protestant Principles are I am not lost for what I believe them to be and that I do not believe in, but believe in God and His laws for myself and pray that others will come to that same place with God.

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Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

[Mimi]

I just wonder how strongly Luther would protest when investigating the spiritual and doctrinal operations of Protestants today?

Do we realize the importance of the new reform movement? Our true mission? To bring back biblical principles begun so many years ago ... in Luther's time. To finish that reform is our sole mission.

[Richard Myers]

The battle is on in the nation God raised up to be an example and a protection for His people. America was a Protestant nation. As such she was to have moral laws which included freedom of religion. This freedom pertained to the first four commandments. They were not be legislated as Roman Catholicism and Islam would do. Man is left to worship God according to his conscience, he is not to be forced to worship God.

The last six commandments have to do with our relationship with each other. These not only ought to be codified, but they have been since the nation was founded. And, most other societies in the past have based their laws upon these commandments also. But, with the decline of morality, now there is an all out fight to keep from having moral laws. The Texas sodomy law was overturned by the US Supreme Court. And...many so called conservatives agree with the decision.

Laws that would have protected society have now been seen to be going too far. It is very sad that Christians have been deceived and have not objected to the change in morality. The church is responsible for this attitude because she has not understood Biblical principle nor lived according to Biblical principle. Babylon has fallen and we see the results in the laws of the nation.

[Richard Myers]

Some believe liberty of conscience means we do not make moral laws. It is said that God does not force. Let us discuss this in the light of Reformation history.

[Wally]

Laws that would have protected society have now been seen to be going too far. It is very sad that Christians have been deceived and have not objected to the change in morality. The church is responsible for this attitude because she has not understood Biblical principle nor lived according to Biblical principle. Babylon has fallen and we see the results in the laws of the nation.

Some believe liberty of conscience means we do not make moral laws. It is said that God does not force. Let us discuss this in the light of Reformation history.

One of the reasons that the church in general (with the exception of a few vocal proponents of morality like James Dobson, et. al.) has fallen down on the job, is because for the most part, mainline denominations no longer accept the Bible as the infallible, inspired Word of God.  They don't believe Gen. 1-11 are to be taken as literal history (hence their celebration of "Evolution Sunday" to honor Darwin's birthday--coming up in Feb.).  Some don't even believe in the virgin birth or the literal Resurrection.  The Bible is used to promote a social gospel, but not the everlasting gospel.  As a result, most professed Christians are confused.  Their churches have become nothing more than pious social clubs.  This is why we as Adventists are uniquely positioned to hold up the banner of truth.  We have never compromised on that one major principle of the Bible as the ultimate standard upon which all morality is based.

All laws by nature have moral roots.  Otherwise we would have anarchy.  the ACLU hates the 10 commandments.  We have no quarrel with the premise that the first 4 are out of bounds as far as legislation by the state is concerned.  But which ones of the remaining 6 do they have problems with?  (OK, I suppose they don't like #5, #7 and #10.)  But that leaves 6, 8, & 9.  What would their utopian society look like if we scratched those last 3?  We've seen what dispensing with 5 & 7 has gotten us over the past 40 years.  And, although you can't really legislate #10, we see what the results of ignoring it have been--consumer debt like we've never seen before.

The Reformation was not about doing away with legislating morality.  In addition to reforming church doctrine and practice, it was about the limits of what the church or State could legislate in terms of personal beliefs which were based on the Bible, and the results of those beliefs as they were reflected in the lifestyle of the believer.

[Wally]

That sounded a bit convoluted, didn't it?   Oh, well, I tried.

[Richard Myers]

That's the way I see it.  The ACLU hates morality, they hate the Bible, and they hate God. So, they would like to tell us that separation of church and state means that we cannot legislate Christian morality, the only kind of morality there is. All else comes from humanity, not God and it is darkness. It really comes from below. There are many who would kill the elderly and the unborn baby. There are many who want to do away with marriage. There are many who just don't want any restrictions on their lives. America never in the past bought into such immorality. But, today, there are many who are not bothered by the immorality, both professing Christians and heathen. And, now we see the effect on society.

[Wally]

That's the way I see it.  The ACLU hates morality, they hate the Bible, and they hate God. So, they would like to tell us that separation of church and state means that we cannot legislate Christian morality, the only kind of morality there is. All else comes from humanity, not God and it is darkness. It really comes from below. There are many who would kill the elderly and the unborn baby. There are many who want to do away with marriage. There are many who just don't want any restrictions on their lives. America never in the past bought into such immorality. But, today, there are many who are not bothered by the immorality, both professing Christians and heathen. And, now we see the effect on society.

I have believed for quite some time that this "philosophy," if you want to call it that, is the inevitable result of the teaching of evolution in the classroom for several generations.  Students have been taught that they are no different than animals.  So, if we are nothing more than evolved animals, then there is no basis for any kind of morality other than what society will tolerate.  And so our society has become relativistic--no absolute truth.  I'd like to ask one of the proponents of this philosophy if the statement that there is no absolute truth, is absolutely true.   They can't seem to see that the end result of this will be the complete breakdown of civilized society.

It is this relativistic philosophy that presents us with such a challenge in spreading the gospel.  Ellen White (I wish I could find this statement!) said something to the effect that if we didn't do the work when times were relatively easy, we would have to finish it in much more difficult times.  This is now the case.  How do you present the gospel to someone who says, "You have your truth and I have my truth?"  And they don't have a problem with that, even though the "truths" may be mutually exclusive.