Author Topic: Investigative Judgment  (Read 72708 times)

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mdg

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #40 on: August 05, 2003, 06:48:00 AM »
No, I don't hate the IJ or indeed any of the other SDA doctrines I happen to disagree with.  Because I disagree with someone doesn't mean that I hate him or his viewpoint.

Surely Dr Desmond Ford and Dr Raymond Cotterrel as well as a number of others have written enough about the IJ?  I don't see that I can add anything to what these great Bible scholars have written on the subject

I do believe however that the particular SDA theology re the IJ was a face-saving exercise (perhaps unwittingly)after our early pioneers experienced the great disappointment in 1844.

I am not arguing that there will be a judgement.  I just believe that the IJ doctrine is based on error.  So my view is not opposed to a judgement per se but to the details of the IJ doctrine as held by the SDA church.  I would humbly refer you to Dr Ford's & Dr Cotterrel's papers on the subject.

In truth, I should probably have myself removed from the church books. I do feel that there is enough reason for me to enjoy fellowship with my friends in the local SDA congregation where my membership is held. I would not want to give that up but I find myself unable to support doctrines I cannot agree with based on my Bible study (with much help from afore-mentioned Bible scholars).  

I certainly do not attempt to cause trouble at my congregation but I am also quite open about my viewpoint re doctrines.

It is very probable that the church will never abandon any of its doctrines.  I do believe however that the reason is not because most members support all these doctrines.  Most members I know don't even really understand the doctrines that well or even know much about our early church history.  There is also generally a culture in the South African SDA community where folks do not want to "rock the boat". There is also an ingrained habit of accepting the leadership as always being right.

So, I don't believe I am the devil's servant because I disagree with certain SDA doctrines. I believe that those of us who are for Adventist reform will be the true remnant at the end of time. Just because the mainstream SDA church holds copyright title to the name and logo does not necessarily mean that it will be the true remnant church.  No, I believe that the reformers will be the wheat and the official church will be the tares if it does not reform.

Marcel de Groot for Adventist reform  


Mike Lowe

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #41 on: August 05, 2003, 07:56:00 AM »
Marcel, what exactly do you (not Ford or Cottrel) believe the truth is about the end time judgment mentioned in the Bible?

Ecclesiastes
 12:13   Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.  
 12:14   For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.  

2 Corinthians
 5:10   For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.  

Romans
14:10   But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.  

Acts
 17:31   Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.  

Hebrews
 9:27   And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:  

2 Peter
 2:9   The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:  

1 John
 4:17   Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.  

Revelation
 14:7   Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.  


Richard Myers

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #42 on: August 05, 2003, 10:06:00 AM »
Brother Marcel, we understand that you do not hate those with whom you disagree. My concern is the fierce battle against the doctrine of the investigative judgment. As Pastor Mike has asked, explain where you have a problem with it. We are more than willing to listen. Share with us where you see it has truth and where you believe it deviates from the Bible. Since you believe there will be a judgment, maybe we are not far apart?
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

David Battler

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #43 on: August 06, 2003, 01:19:00 AM »
Comments such as brother Marcel's, can be found in certain anti-SDA and IJ books, and authors.  Such objections to the IJ are obvious brainchilds of one author in particular, from which all the other anti IJ or anti SDA authors copy their ideas.

What this tells me, is that no credible Bible explanation can be given for any objection to the Investigative judgment.

I have searched all the pages for this topic, and while I saw just two vague generalizations relating to what I am about to say; I was disappointed to see no real mention of what exactly the IJ is, and what it's purpose/importance is.

If we limit the IJ to justification of the sinner; then we cut off from the IJ, 50% of it's importance.

The "Investigative" part of the judgment which began in 1844 in the MHP, is best described by Romans 3:26:

"To declare, I say, AT THIS TIME,His righteousness, that He Might be Just, AND The Justifier, of [anyone] who believes in Jesus."

Not only sinners are justified, but God is too.  This is extremely important.   :)

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Ulicia

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #44 on: August 10, 2003, 12:06:00 PM »
The Bible indicates that people are judged according to their works (See rev. 20:12,13)
This goes against the commonly taught belief that works have nothing to do with salvation,
therefore people throw out the truth that "God will judge His people" (Heb. 10:3)

They go to John 5:24 where it tells us those who accept Christ will not come under condemnation, and claim this means their names will not come up in judgement.
However, John 5 clearly presents a judgement that results  in the resurrection those who have done good who will come up in the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil who will come up in the resurrection of ****ation. (5:28,29)

The strong message the "judgement" carries that we need to REPENT, and confess and forsake our sins, that they may be blotted out (see Acts 3:19) is what makes the judgment message so despised by many people.
They would rather hear the words-- You are saved by faith,  works and obedience have no part in salvation, the law was nailed to the cross, just love and believe you are saved and you will automatically grow fruit.

Somehow the message that the saints of God
"keep God's commandments AND have the faith of Jesus" Rev. 14:12 is ignored.



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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #45 on: August 10, 2003, 03:00:00 PM »
On the day of Atonement the ancient annual Holy Sabbath day, the Jews hoped to receive a "good writ of judgment" as opposed to a "guilty" writ.
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Ulicia

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #46 on: August 10, 2003, 08:21:00 PM »
Yes, God's people are vindicated in the  judgment but--
were there any conditions
to receive the "forgiven and cleansed" verdict? or was everyone universally accepted?

Is the investigative judgment just a blanket vindication for anyone that names Christ's name, or are their conditions?


Richard Myers

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #47 on: August 10, 2003, 09:26:00 PM »
Yes, Sister Ulicia, that is the point. Will all Jews pass through the Day of Atonement and not be cut off from God's people, or will some be cut off? If they are cut off on what basis are they "cut off"?

It is such a blessing to have simple to understand truths set before us that all who want to know may know. None will be condemned by God because they innocently believed a lie or unknowingly cherished error, but because they did not avail themselves of the opportunity to know truth.

Here we have a discussion of a most important truth that Satan is working diligently to obscure. Some will take exception with the teaching and will not fully enter into the discussion. If they did and left their preconceived opinions behind, they could easily understand the truth. It is supported by the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. It is understood easily by an object lesson within the Jewish economy.

The words that are written in this topic will not disappear, by God's grace. The arguments made for and against this doctrine will remain for all to view. The truth will stand on it's own and will be vindicated just as God's faithful people shall be. And, as our Brother David has pointed out, God Himself in the process of this "great controversy" will also be vindicated. All will see Him as perfect in His judgment and perfect in His  love.

Those who are "cut off" from His kingdom will be seen to have brought it upon themselves despite the great expense our God went to in His attempt to save them. Those who today charge God with wrong-doing will one day see that it was they who were doing wrong. God will stand clear of the charge that He participated, or caused evil in any way. He will be cleared of the charge that He did not act to stop evil, or did not do enough to rescue sinners from evil. The act of sacrificing His innocent Son for guilty man will one day be clearly seen by all, not just the ransomed who allowed Christ full reign in their hearts.

These beautiful truths are embodied in the "investigative judgment" where Jesus defends those who were conceived in sin, but responded to His call of love. Satan attacks these children of the King. He points to their sins and claims them as his. But, while it is true that these are their sins, Christ reveals the truth. What truth? The thoughts, the actions, the motives of the heart of each of His disciples who gave Him their all. He opens the books in heaven where these are all recorded. He presents the evidence that each of His saved ones accepted His offer of grace and allowed Him to lead in their lives. Here are they who through the grace of Christ indeed did keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. It is recorded and none can argue as they do today. Satan is silenced and he then allowed to show that many who named the name of Jesus are indeed his. Jesus cannot and will not defend those who made only a profession of faith, but failed to love Him with the "whole" heart.

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. In this judgment it is seen by the actions, thoughts, and motives who it is that lived their faith and who it is that did not.

Today we still have opportunity to choose Christ, to call upon His name to save us from our sins. Soon probation will close for the world and time will be no longer. For some today is their last day. There is no safety in waiting for a better time. Today is the day of salvation. Today is the day to come to Christ just as we are. To fail to do so may be the greatest mistake in one's life. We never know what tomorrow will bring.

May God bless this discussion. He will bless those who see their need and come to Him just as they are. There is no need to attempt to prepare oneself. One cannot. It is the sinner that needs a physician, not the righteous. Come to Jesus and allow Him to cleanse you, today.

[This message has been edited by Richard Myers (edited 08-21-2003).]

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Mike Lowe

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #48 on: August 12, 2003, 09:03:00 AM »
RE: the day of atonement (judgment) Moses wrote

Leviticus
 23:29   For whatsoever soul [it be] that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.  
 23:30   And whatsoever soul [it be] that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.  

[This message has been edited by Mike Lowe (edited 08-12-2003).]


Richard Myers

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #49 on: August 12, 2003, 09:23:00 PM »
This is an interesting aspect of God's character that many refuse to see. It seems that some cannot reconcile a God who is not always manifesting outward obvious love with their desires of God. I have heard some say "If God is like that, I will not serve Him." It is indeed a presumptuous and selfish heart that cannot accept the God of the Bible. For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son for us while we were yet sinners. If this is not enough to get one to stop and search the Scriptures until they can rightly understand God's character, then it would seem that little else could be said that could motivate such a study.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

mdg

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #50 on: August 15, 2003, 07:49:00 AM »
Pardon for taking so long to post re my viewpoint on the IJ.

I never really bothered much about the IJ until quite recently.  

****Post edited. Links and all material off topic have been removed ****


Brother Marcel, we are happy to have you present your questions and even some of your thoughts on the doctrine of the "investigative judgment". The truth can stand on it's own and your remarks will only prove the doctrine Biblical as we are given opportunity to address your concerns.

What we will not allow is the posting of links to other sites that are not Biblically sound. We also ask that you stay on topic. Since this post of yours said nothing regarding the doctrine I have edited your post to conform to the topic. There are other topics in other forums if you wish to discuss other difficulties. If you have concerns about our administration, you may take those to the Member's Forum in the Administration area. It is a public forum.

We look forward to you posting your concerns regarding the investigavtive judgement in this topic. Thank you.

Richard Myers, administrator-TRO  


[This message has been edited by Richard Myers (edited 08-16-2003).]


Ulicia

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #51 on: August 16, 2003, 06:13:00 PM »
Revelation announces the investigative judgment in each of the "sevens" prior to the grand announcement in Revelation 14:7 where the 1st angel announces--
"The hour of his judgement IS come...."

We, as Adventists have held that the prophecies of Revelation are not successive, they are repetitive; tht is, they double back, covering the same time periods.

Thus the seven churches, seven seals, seven trumpets cover the same time periods.

In the SEVEN CHURCHES:
the judgement is announced in the Philadephia period.  A door is shut and another is opened.

In the SEVEN SEALS:
the judgment is called for in the fifth seal,  
"How long oh Lord till you judge..."
THEN white robes are given them...
BUT they must sleep the sleep of death a little longer....
and the sixth seal shows the two groups  resulting-- one group calling for rocks to fall on them, the other group standing before God's throne in white robes.

In the SEVEN TRUMPETS:
the judgment is called for by the 24 elders at the seventh trumpet and the temple in heaven is opened and the ark of the covenant is seen.
 

quote:
GC.433.001
The temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament." Revelation 11:19. The ark of God's testament is in the holy of holies, the second apartment of the sanctuary. In the ministration of the earthly tabernacle, which served "unto the example and shadow of heavenly things," this apartment was opened only upon the great Day of Atonement for the cleansing of the sanctuary. Therefore the announcement that the temple of God was opened in heaven and the ark of His testament was seen points to the opening of the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary in 1844 as Christ entered there to perform the closing work of the atonement.

[This message has been edited by Ulicia (edited 08-16-2003).]


Narroc

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #52 on: August 21, 2003, 04:00:00 AM »
 >>>>>The IJ, tithe, unclean foods & anti-alchohol SDA doctrines are un-Biblical.<<<<<

While I believe Marcell is correct in that the IJ doctrine is a garbage, I do believe that the the unclean foods & anti-alchohol is very correct, We are what we eat and as christians we need to be in full control of our facitities at ALL TIMES and how can we be if we are under the infulence of alchohol or drugs. Unclean foods are very unhealthy, Pig meat is very rich and even worse is chicken which has been raised in these chicken houses and fed on hormones and ground up other animals.
We wonder why people are getting things like Mad cow disease. It's a wonder there isn't more of it.

[This message has been edited by Narroc (edited 08-21-2003).]


Richard Myers

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #53 on: August 21, 2003, 08:56:00 AM »
Brother Narroc, could you share with us what it is that you believe to incorrect with the teaching of a judgment as we have outlined? Brother Marcel has not done so, but we would appreciate your thoughts.

It seems that New Zealand and South Africa have some things in common.

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Ralph Myers

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #54 on: August 21, 2003, 04:43:00 PM »
The health message is important if we wish to live to see the Second Coming.

Those whose health have been compromised may not have the stamina it will take to survive the events of the last days.

God will place many of His dear souls in the grave for the short time until He comes.

I do not think that anyone who inherits eternal life without seeing death, will accidently get there, they must desire it. No one "accidentally" gets to heaven through the time of the end.

It is a gift to be prayed for.

As for the Investigative Judgment... I have seen it in three different Scriptures even when I was not looking for it, but while reading other studies.

It is not possible that God can make any determination as to whether or not you will be saved, unless a "judgment" at the last day is rendered to you. A judgment must first be made.

The types and shadows of the ceremonial services have not passed away. They are no longer in practice under the first sanctuary, but they still serve to explain the real sanctuary that is yet in heaven, and still in progress.

These types and shadows do not all culminate in the death of Christ. Some are shadows of things yet to come. The scapegoat is still in the future millenium.

Ralph Myers

[This message has been edited by Ralph Myers (edited 08-21-2003).]

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susanskeptic

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #55 on: October 23, 2003, 09:06:00 PM »
There are many different theories on the I.J.:

#1. Does anyone have an opinion on Martin Eldon's theory??:
< http://www.babylonforsaken.com/investigative.html >

#2. Does anyone have an opinion on Dirk Anderson's theory??:
< http://www.ellenwhite.org/egw36.htm >

#3. Does anyone have an opinion on Ron Beaulieu's theories??:
< http://members.tripod.com/omega77/doaandezekiel9.htm >
< http://members.tripod.com/omega77/martinvegw1.htm >
< http://members.tripod.com/omega77/ijproven.htm >

#4. Does anyone have an opinion on Sydney Cleveland's theories??:
< http://www.christiancommunitychurch.us/dovenet/sda2300.htm >


Richard Myers

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #56 on: October 24, 2003, 10:06:00 PM »
Sister Susan, if these individuals wish to come here and question what has been posted, they are welcome, if they are Seventh-day Adventists. If you have any concerns about what has been posted, we offer you also the opportunity to question what has been said. I think the doctrinal position is clearly revealed and it seems to me to be very Biblical. The fact that there are those that hold different positions is seen as it is with so many other doctrinal teachings.

As I have said before, the investigative judgment has to be twisted so that a false gospel can live. The gospel and the investigative judgment go hand in hand. Most professing Christians will not go to heaven unless they have a dramatic change in their characters. Few teach a correct gospel that reveals the power of grace in the life.

What problems do you have with the investigative judgment? Maybe we can help.  :)

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Ulicia

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #57 on: November 13, 2003, 09:53:00 PM »
There is no problems with the Judgment message.

Where I see problems is when that message is laid aside.  Repeatedly those who fail to see the judgment in Daniel and Revelation also fail to see the whole endtime battle for what it is.

If the investigative judgment is denied then the horn in Daniel is also denied as being the papacy.
Judgement then is no longer to determine WHO THE REAL CHRISTIANS are, but is simply a judgment on some ancient historical power.

The investigative judgment is a judgment on the little horn, to see the little horn as THE PRIMACY of Christianity for hundreds of years, clearly shows this judgment is dealing with Christianity,-- determining who the real Christians are,  and it follows in it's natural progression.  
But those who deny that  then say the  horn is called Epiphense and the prophecies of Daniel are mainly placed pre-cross. "As types" of a future antichrist who is NOT CHRISTIAN.

This leads to all types of deviations from the real battle of the last days, Christ's kingdom, and many other truths.
 
This of course also destroys the Sabbath message AS A TEST,  for  if the  church with PRIMACY in the  Christian era, did not change the law of God, why would there be a battle between papal christianity and those who keep the commandments of God?

Too many times I've seen those who forsake the Judgment message,  also forsake the whole endtime beliefs.

This doctrine, which  is very BIBLICAL, is truly  a PILLAR--
If the opposition can destroy that pillar, the Seventh-day Adventist church, as an identity with a unique message for the last days,  crumbles.


Richard Myers

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #58 on: November 14, 2003, 05:08:00 AM »
"those who fail to see the judgment in Daniel
and Revelation also fail to see the whole endtime battle for what it is."

Amen, Sister Ulicia. The "judgment" message is at the foundation of our faith. Mis-interpret it and all that follows will be off. God extended to Adam another chance to form a character for eternity. That same offer is extended to each of us. If we fail to see the test, then how can we enter into the work for our souls? It is sad that there are so many who will not study this subject for themselves, but rely upon the teachings of others. It will cost many of them their souls.

The end time events are laid out very clearly in the Bible. Satan does all that he can do to confuse the simplicity of the Bible. The battle between good and evil is just about over. There is little time left to decide who will be our God. This subject of the investigative judgment correcty understood, will help those who are sincere in their faith. It will point them in the right direction, the power of God's grace.

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #59 on: November 14, 2003, 01:49:00 PM »
Again Amen, Sister Ulicia.

Sometimes I feel there are some amoung us that, like the world of Christians, choose to pick what they want to believe, not realizing that like the old song goes, "the neck bone's connected to the shoulder bone....etc..  so also is prophecy and doctrine, it is all connected and if we take out a part, slowly something else crumbles too, and then more, tell all we had been so strong in has crumbled beneith our feet. We must stick to all parts and hold up "the whole Truth!"

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With Christian Love,
Sister Marie

With Christian Love,
Marie