Author Topic: Investigative Judgment  (Read 133280 times)

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Richard Myers

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #140 on: February 15, 2010, 12:36:15 PM »

2. Weren't sacrifices required for sins that came into one's awareness only? And weren't they supposed to offer sacrifice daily because they surely have sinned, even if they were not made aware of their sin? Is it really necessary to be aware of every sin we commit?

Sacrifices were made for both known and unknown sins. Is it necessary to be aware of every sin? No. It is not. Today many break the fourth commandment and God does not bring the light to them or hold them accountable. Most who die today and love Jesus supremely, do not keep the fourth commandment. Soon that will not be the case. As the end comes, the last test will be on the fourth commandment. The light will shine upon the Sabbath commandment.

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3. Regarding the mostly righteous man who dies in sin, or before he has repented - If David had died before his sin was shown to him, would he still be called a man of God?

That is a good question and it is made more difficult by false teachings. The Bible is clear on the matter. The wages of sin is death. To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin. God looks upon the heart. That is what will be judged. In the investigative judgment, the words, deeds, thoughts, and motives are recorded as evidence of where the heart was at death. Your concern is that when a man dies who was righteous, but sinned and did not repent before he died what will happen. The Bible tells us that when a man turns from his righteousness and sins, God will not remember his righteousness. Something seems amis, for all could make a mistake, or do as Moses did and sin at the end of life. Why wouldn't God make an allowance for what could have happened if the man had been given more time?

That is a very dangerous idea that many have come up with. That a man could sin and retain eternal life is a very popular teaching in Christian churches. Let me give you the answer as I have seen it. The devil is very good at creating such arguments that undo the gospel truth in the minds of many. In this case what he has done is create a situation wherein there are two possibilities, neither are correct. First, the holy man sins and then dies without repentance and is allowed into heaven. The second is just as bad, the holy man sins one time in 40 years, dies without repentance one moment after the sin and is refused entrance into heaven. Only the devil would present such lies. We know God and we know He is fair. We know His Word is true. So, neither of these accounts is true. Why do so many in the church go for his lie?

Could there be a third possibility? Maybe Satan has given an example and provided only two options when there are more. He is so clever!

When we study the Book of Job, we find that God is in absolute control of all that happens in this world. It may appear that a wind came from nowhere and destroyed Job's family, but it was not true. It did not just happen. And, it is not true that God brought the wind that killed all of Job's children and left his wife alive. No, we are told that Satan was responsible. We also see that until God allowed Satan to do this, it could not be done. The same with Job. Satan could not touch Job until God allowed him to. And then Satan could not take his life. There is granted to man a period of temporal life, a period we call probation in which time man is given an opportunity to learn of God and to choose whom he will serve. This period of probation is given to sinners as well as saints. There would be no life without the sacrifice of Christ. Because Jesus suffered and died, all humans are granted this opportunity to choose God and be reconciled to Him. By faith we believe this. Some will begin to give examples of how a man could die before he repents, but that only indicates a lack of faith in Him who holds all in His hands. Each heartbeat is under the control of God. It is His love for us that keeps us alive moment by moment. He is actively involved in our lives. Sadly, few believe this.

For you, dear sister, God is well pleased as you search out His word to see what is truth and what is not. You will learn in months what it has taken others many years to learn. Seek and ye shall find! As we learn of Him, our love grows stronger and we become more steadfast in our commitment to Him.

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Richard Myers

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #141 on: February 15, 2010, 01:12:56 PM »
4. So when we repent, what is it we are repenting? Is it the specific sin, or is it the fact that we have fallen away from God?  Isn't it pointless to confess every individual sin without returning to God? It's when we return to God that our sins are forgiven. There is absolutely no comfort in confessing our sins. It's our return that gives us rest.

God is giving you very good discernment!!  There is no sin unless we are separated from Christ. So, when we sin, we are to understand that it is a revelation of separation. We can be sorry for our sin, we can confess our sin, but there will be no repentance until we are reconciled to God. When we see our sins and confess them and plead with God to save us, to reveal Himself to us, to give us His Spirit, what shall He do? Give us a stone? NO! He is calling the sinner back to Himself. It is His drawing and His Spirit that we are responding to when we have sinned.  When we repent, we repent of the specific sin, but more than that, we are to understand that we have hurt our Jesus when we sinned. We are to understand that we have separated from Him. We are to understand that our sin has misrepresented God to others.

You are so right, there is no peace in confession of sin. Peace comes from being reconciled to God. The law is the school-master that leads us back to Christ. In Christ the soul finds rest.

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Maybe it's because I am new to my relationship with God, but this thread seems to offer very little hope, and very little rest. It seems to be full of the wrong kind of fear. I accept the Investigative Judgment. When I first heard of it, I didn't even question it because I know that it is supported in Scripture. I have read that scripture.

There is a reason why. It may not be a very good one. We will attempt to rectify the situation so that all can be encouraged. The reason why this subject offers little hope is that most will fail of attaining eternal life. The road is narrow and steep and few will enter in. It is not because it is not possible, but that so few will submit to Christ. This can be discouraging, but it ought not be. Why? Because the God of heaven, the Creator God who made all in nature that we see, loves us!! He has proved it by sending His only Son into this dark world to let Him be subject to the weakness of humanity and to fight he battle as we must fight it at the risk of failure and eternal loss. Failure? What failure? Jesus could have failed. What eternal loss? If Jesus had failed, He would have been separated from His Father for eternity!!

Now, Jesus did not fail. He gave us an example that shows we can do it. It is God's love that saves us. How can we not be encouraged when we understand all that was given for our salvation!! When you read in many of the forums and topics you will read of this great love. It needs to be included in this topic also and you have given us cause to do that just  now!! Thank you. In the judgment we see our Advocate Jesus defending us, those who have given Him their hearts. No matter how bad we were, no matter how long we were evil, He stands there with His hands held high, pointing to the scars as evidence of His sacrifice for us who have died to self and trusted Him with the whole heart. We ought to be encouraged by this great revelation of His faithfulness to us as He argues in our favor who are so undeserving!

But, before we can be encouraged we need to see we are sick and in need of a Saviour. You come into this battle in the churches not seeing all that the enemy has done. You do not see the well laid plans and the multitude of deceptions brought into the churches. You, my dearest sister, are blessed to be able to skirt those lies, to not have the seed of error planted in your mind. Sadly, the investigative judgment is not believed by most in Christian churches. At this point, you have no idea how the doctrine has been mutilated. It is a doctrine that when understood as you see it, will keep the soul from believing the great lie that has come into Christian churches. That a man can be saved in his sin. You see this is not so. Now, having believed this truth, you also understand that God has provided a remedy to this fatal condition all men inherit. The remedy is a very expensive One. It was very painful, very risky, and reveals just how valuable you are to God. The devil has done all in his power to block the truth of the power of grace to transform the life. If he can keep sinners from understanding their true condition when separated from God, then they will not seek out the Physician. One who does not see their disease, does not understand they are sick, will not seek a physician.

The truth of the matter is just what you see in this topic. The road if very steep and very narrow. Only those who have given their hearts fully to Christ will see heaven. But, we all may enter in if we will allow Christ to enter into our hearts. He is working toward that end. He is a living High Priest!! He is calling and working for our salvation. If He be for us, who can be against us!!!
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Wally

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #142 on: February 15, 2010, 01:44:22 PM »
Hi Donna,

Most mental illness I believe is the result of demons, so the person has done something to invite their presence such as drugs, alcohol, involvement in the occult and witchcraft. Then other sins compound the problem as well. Usually there is a rejection of Jesus as Saviour somewhere along the way.I do not believe God will excuse their sin because their minds have become unresponsive. In the case of someone born with cognitive retardation, that may be a different matter. God is well able to judge righteously.


God Bless! Steve



 

I don't think a categorical statement like that is valid.

Try telling that to a parent whose child is born with a mental illness.  As the physical body can become sick, so can the brain.  This does not necessarily imply that demons are involved beyond their normal involvement in human affairs.  As there can be chemical imbalances in the body, so can there be in the brain.  It can't all be attributed to demons or drugs.
So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants:  we have done that which was our duty to do.  Luke 17:10

Richard Myers

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #143 on: February 15, 2010, 02:04:38 PM »
However, Christ's yoke is light, and His burden is easy. With the process of sanctification, and the promise that what He has begun in us will be completed, the fact that we are not able to save ourselves, and that He will not abandon us, the IJ is all about rejoicing, and not worrying about making ourselves perfect. It is being done in us. Isn't our focus supposed to be on faith based works, for "love covers a multitude of sins', and reaching out to our brothers and sisters, and expressing the love God has shown us?  I'm not denying the importance or beauty of the Law, but they seem to be better understood as promises that God WILL complete in us, rather than our daily focus.

Ask one who is to go on trial if the court day is a day of rejoicing. It depends on your case. If you are guilty, know you are guilty, and have no hope, then it is a dark day!

If you have a defense attorney that knows you are guilty and has told you that he can get you off, but you have been reading the law books and see that he is not telling you everything and know that you are guilty of murder and the punishment is death, is court day a day of rejoicing?

One who is guilty, but has repented and knows that the law says repentant ones will be not only forgiven, but paid a million dollars, has a different attitude towards the day of court. On the other hand, he needs to be sure of the end result before he begins rejoicing. :)  If we know the law and we know the One who has His hands held high, then by faith we can rejoice, not in our goodness, but in the power of His grace to finish the work He has begun and to keep me by His grace until that final day! I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.  

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I know I'm a sinner. There is no hope for me apart from Christ. But if I'm constantly focused on my sin, which just gets more and more clear to me, how is it that my eyes are on Christ?

Dear sister, you are not in a Laodicean condition. The law, in your case is a transcript of God's character. In Christ, you are set free from the bondage of the law. It has no power to save, only to condemn. You see your guilt. Now, you go to Jesus. You focus on Christ. Do not focus on your sin. Again, you are so right in what you are learning. When one sees they are sick, then most of the battle is won. Now, you know you have a need. We run to Christ who can give us power to resist all sin. In Christ we are given His Spirit. The fruits of His Spirit are love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance which is self-control. As long as we will abide in Him, He will be in us!! If we sin, we still have an advocate that is holding back the winds until we are sealed. We still have a time of probation in which to learn of Christ. Let us behold Jesus, and by beholding Him be changed into His image! It would be well to spend a thoughtful hour each day contemplating the life of Christ. With Jesus in the mind, we are fortified against the temptations that will come each day.

Let us take our eyes off our sins, and put them squarely on Jesus!!! That is our work!!


Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Mimi

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #144 on: February 15, 2010, 02:10:46 PM »
Amen!
  For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. Psalm 119:89 

Donna H

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #145 on: February 15, 2010, 02:36:47 PM »


Let us take our eyes off our sins, and put them squarely on Jesus!!! That is our work!!



Now, how does this reconcile with being in a constant state of repentance?
Faith is the living power that presses through every barrier, overrides all obstacles, and plants its banner in the heart of the enemy’s camp. 4T 163.3

Donna H

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #146 on: February 15, 2010, 03:29:46 PM »
Maybe I don't need that answered. I think God is been showing me. I so love when he answers my questions.

Thank you.
Faith is the living power that presses through every barrier, overrides all obstacles, and plants its banner in the heart of the enemy’s camp. 4T 163.3

Mimi

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #147 on: February 15, 2010, 03:31:35 PM »
 :) God bless you, dear Donna.
  For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. Psalm 119:89 

Richard Myers

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #148 on: February 15, 2010, 03:40:10 PM »
Well....if I had not already typed out a reply, I would not post this. You are better off getting an answer from Jesus than from man. The Spirit is given to lead us into all truth. He is the best teacher. He does so through the Bible. See how this squares with what God has shown you, Sister Donna.

As we near the cross of Calvary there is seen love that is without a parallel. As we by faith grasp the meaning of the sacrifice, we see ourselves sinners, condemned by a broken law. This is repentance. Condemnation is not repentance. Condemnation comes from the broken law, repentance comes from Christ. We are saved by grace. What is Grace? It is Christ saying "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" as He suffers intense agony, not from physical pain, but the pain caused by His separation from His Father. Why does this bring repentance, not to be repented of? Because the separation happened on account of my sins. Yes, He loved me while I was yet a sinner. It is this love on account of my sins that breaks my cold selfish heart and leaves me sorrowing over what I have done to my Savior. This is what keeps us in that state known as conversion. Self is dead, not because of anything I did to achieve it, but because of what I did to not deserve it, and knowing that Christ loves me in spite of it and paid the ransom that I might live.

The letter of the law brings death, but the Spirit of Christ brings life that is seen in the character of the converted Christian.

Does this help, Donna? Did it get to the foundation of repentance?


Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Steve Billiter

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #149 on: February 15, 2010, 06:13:28 PM »
Wally, did you read my post? I said some are born with mental retardation. I stand on everything I said. You don't think demons can cause chemical imbalance? Read the book of Job.

“The more time I spent with Jesus Christ, the more I found that fear, depression, anxiety and mania were ebbing. I was being filled with God's Holy Spirit.”
2 Timothy 1:7 says: "God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of power and of love, and a sound mind."(Tory Walker)

 This woman had severe mental disorders, ans saw demons with her own eyes.

Steve Billiter

Donna H

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #150 on: February 15, 2010, 06:13:37 PM »
Yes, it helps very much. It is an important distinction to make between repentance and condemnation. I have been struggleing with moving out of feeling condemned. Being new and all, I think it is a normal growth, but is quite unpleasant  :-\. To make the distinction is very helpful. It seems that to be in a constant state of repentance might be as simple as humility, as knowing our place in our relationship with God, and always being aware of the enormity of our gift. It could actually keep us from sinning, to be aware like that, having a repentant heart. If repentance is crucial in order for us to return and be close to God, then a constant state would  keep us always close to God. I was getting the feeling of condemnation mixed up with repentance and it seemed to be something that would seperate me. Wow, what an incredible untwisting.  Yesterday was huge for me also in that I saw the 10 Commandments as promises for the first time, rather than orders from a hostile, furrow-browed God pointing His judging finger down from the opened clouds of heaven. It is so beautiful when the lies come apart and God reveals Himself. This is especially important in light of the IJ, and the encouragement that I truly need.

There is nothing as wonderful in all the universe and my own experience as having the lies of Satan fall away from my vision, so I can see and experience more of who God really is. Nothing can compare.

Thank you, and God bless.
Faith is the living power that presses through every barrier, overrides all obstacles, and plants its banner in the heart of the enemy’s camp. 4T 163.3

Mimi

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #151 on: February 15, 2010, 06:25:46 PM »
Wow! I just love hearing this. It truly is one of the most wonderful experiences. It took me a very, very long time to come to this understanding. Again, bless you, dear Donna.
  For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. Psalm 119:89 

Tim2

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #152 on: February 15, 2010, 06:51:45 PM »
Yes!!!  What an encouraging testimony for me, too.  By beholding, you are being change from glory to glory.

Richard Myers

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #153 on: February 15, 2010, 06:58:06 PM »
We rejoice with you, dear sister. I once read something that explained something about God that was a blessing. It may bless you also. I share it in this topic that we may encourage those who find the subject of the Investigative Judgment fearful. If we correctly understand that God is actively working for our salvation, it helps us to cooperate with Him.

"His name shall be called Immanuel, . . . God with us." "The light of the knowledge of the glory of God" is seen "in the face of Jesus Christ." From the days of eternity the Lord Jesus Christ was one with the Father; He was "the image of God," the image of His greatness and majesty, "the outshining of His glory." It was to manifest this glory that He came to our world. To this sin-darkened earth He came to reveal the light of God's love,--to be "God with us." Therefore it was prophesied of Him, "His name shall be called Immanuel."    

By coming to dwell with us, Jesus was to reveal God both to men and to angels. He was the Word of God,--God's thought made audible. In His prayer for His disciples He says, "I have declared unto them Thy name,"--"merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,"--"that the love wherewith Thou hast loved Me may be in them, and I in them." But not alone for His earthborn children was this revelation given. Our little world is the lesson book of the universe. God's wonderful purpose of grace, the mystery of redeeming love, is the theme into which "angels desire to look," and it will be their study throughout endless ages. Both the redeemed and the unfallen beings will find in the cross of Christ their science and their song. It will be seen that the glory shining in the face of Jesus is the glory of self-sacrificing love. In the light from Calvary it will be seen that the law of self-renouncing love is the law of life for earth and heaven; that the love which "seeketh not her own" has its source in the heart of God; and that in the meek and lowly One is manifested the character of Him who dwelleth in the light which no man can approach unto.  


God is not waiting to stamp out our lives, to the contrary, He loves us so much He sent His Son at great risk to rescue us. The law of heaven and earth is seen in His self-sacrificing love. When Jesus is in us, we manifest that self-sacrificing love.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Wally

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #154 on: February 16, 2010, 03:24:53 AM »
Wally, did you read my post? I said some are born with mental retardation. I stand on everything I said. You don't think demons can cause chemical imbalance? Read the book of Job.

“The more time I spent with Jesus Christ, the more I found that fear, depression, anxiety and mania were ebbing. I was being filled with God's Holy Spirit.”
2 Timothy 1:7 says: "God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of power and of love, and a sound mind."(Tory Walker)

 This woman had severe mental disorders, ans saw demons with her own eyes.



Sorry, I missed the part about being born with mental retardation.

But I don't see how the book of Job has anything to do with mental disorders.  Job was discouraged, as anyone would be after having lost nearly everything, not to mention the boils.

Of course demons could effect chemical imbalances.  But don't believe one can categorically attribute most mental disorders to demons.  If that were the case then is nearly every cold, flu, or cancer attributable to demons also?  After 6000 years of human degeneration it is inevitable that there will be sickness, both physical and mental (our health message was given to counteract that as much as possible, in both the physical and mental realms.).  But to assume that demons are directly involved in most cases appears to me to go beyond what either the Bible or the SOP says on the subject.
So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants:  we have done that which was our duty to do.  Luke 17:10

Tim2

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #155 on: February 16, 2010, 05:05:31 AM »
Just as it is our privilege to have Christ formed within (Christ in you, the hope of glory), the closer we move to the end of earth's period of history granted called probation, satan's followers will also have his diabolical image formed within.  We are told this in no uncertain terms -- but as we have also seen in the ministry of Jesus on this earth, even a demoniac can choose.  We must pray for the spiritual discernment to know how to be of service. 

In the IJ, God takes into consideration the back ground of a person.  Each must trust and obey in every particular to their best ability, walking according to the spirit --making no provision for the flesh.  Choosing to be in Christ each moment releases His enabling grace and only then do we have the power to practice a fitness for heaven.  After we have done our best, Christ sprinkles the moistening drops of His infinitely perfect obedience on our human shortfall and we are given the spotless robe of His righteousness.  Oh, gracious provision!!  On this earth, He was treated as we deserve that we who trust in Him, might be treated as He deserves.  With His stripes we are healed.

Richard Myers

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #156 on: February 16, 2010, 06:37:14 AM »

On this earth, He was treated as we deserve that we who trust in Him, might be treated as He deserves.  With His stripes we are healed.

Amen!!

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In the IJ, God takes into consideration the back ground of a person.

Yes and no.  We have to be careful here because of false teaching in the churches. "To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin." So, many Sunday keepers will be in heaven when they have truly experienced the new birth and walked after the Spirit, because they did not know the seventh day Sabbath was binding. But, God does not excuse known sin because of a person's background. A person must be changed in character no matter what the background. Some will not be saved because they could not be changed.

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Each must trust and obey in every particular to their best ability, walking according to the spirit --making no provision for the flesh.

Here can be made an opening for sin. Some will say that because one was surprised into sin, or did not premeditate sin, that it is not chargeable, but this is not so. These are excuses for sin. There is no excuse for known sin. We need to look at some examples of what you mean when you say "to their best ability." If they are walking according to the Spirit, they have Christ within and self is  dead. Their hearts are pure and their motives are pure. It makes no difference that they eat the wrong food or wear the wrong clothes, it is the heart that God looks upon in the IJ.  The books are opened that reveal the deeds, the words, the thoughts, and the motives. The universe will get to see these things for out of the abundance of the heart the mouths speaks. But, more than this, the motives are written down for all to see. If the motives were not holy and pure, then the person's shortcomings will not be covered by the blood of Christ.

This is why our Sister Donna finds this thread so difficult. In it we must be truthful about the law of God. Too many "theologians" have brought into the churches doctrinal teachings that have deceived the lambs and the sheep. They have a false idea of what is required for salvation. The road has been made to go downhill rather than the steep uphill that it is. This is  a false assurance of salvation. We need to guard against the lies so that we can claim the precious promises we have been given.

Here is how God takes the background of the sinner into account. It is not in the IJ, but in life that God makes provision for the background and the current situation of the sinner. "I will not allow you to be tempted  beyond what you can bear." When in Christ, rather than forgive sin that is not repented of and forsaken, God keeps one from being tempted  beyond what he can bear. He does two things. First He protects the sinner from temptations that he is not ready for. No loss of a child or pulling of fingernails. Then, when the measured temptation is allowed to come, God gives grace to be lifted above it. This is the method that God uses to meet us where we are. He does not excuse known sin. The heart is pure or it is not. It is the condition of the heart that will be revealed in the IJ. Jesus will not make up for a heart that has not been fully given to Him. The motives must be pure and holy.

When  exceptions are made in this area, then there is no assurance of salvation because then there is no standard in the judgment. What is the standard? It is the law of God. No excuses, but the sins that were not known are not chargeable. God looks upon the heart. It must be pure, the motives must be pure. Self must  be dead. When Christ is allowed into the heart, He purifies it. The man is a new  creature in Christ Jesus.

I fear that some will make excuses for their sins when they are given any opportunity to do so. There is no excuse for sin. When we come to know this, then we will look for a Savior that can save us from our sin, not in our sin. Yes, this is a hard message. It is a fearful message to all who have not tasted of the power of grace. But, when by experience, we taste of His love and learn of His power, we understand by experience that  His yoke is light!  We are given precious promises that do not excuse  sin, but rather empower sinful man to keep the commandments of God through faith in Jesus.

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"Choosing to be in Christ each moment releases His enabling grace and only then do we have the power to practice a fitness for heaven."

Amen!  And  not only do we  obey all that we know, we walk in all the light we have been given, our characters are perfected so that we more perfectly reflect our Savior in what we do.

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After we have done our best, Christ sprinkles the moistening drops of His infinitely perfect obedience on our human shortfall and we are given the spotless robe of His righteousness.  Oh, gracious provision!!

We may be saying the same thing, but I can 't see it in that order. In me is no good thing.  To do my best then receive His robe is not good. First, I must have my heart purified, then I receive His  robe. There is no works of  righteousness in salvation.  The good works follow conversion. And, the robe is  given to produce good works. It does not come afterward. When a man is converted, he has seen Christ on the cross and his heart is broken, he ceases to resist  His great love and allows the Spirit to take possession of his heart. When  this happens, the filthy garments are removed and the robe of  Christ's righteousness is placed on the sinner. The removing of the  filthy garments and the placing of the "white raiment" is an object lesson. No unconfessed sins are covered  over. The filthy character, the defiled heart are cleansed and once clean, the character of Christ is not only imputed, but imparted to the sinner. This is the robe of His righteousness being spoken of. It is His character, perfect at each stage of Christian maturity. It is Christ, not I. It is His Spirit controlling the fallen flesh.

Christ will indeed make up for some shortcomings. We do not perfectly match Christ. Many today eat food that makes them sick. Many do not receive the blessing from keeping His day of rest. Many dress in a manner that does not give  glory to God. These things God will excuse IF the sinner does not know. Slapping one's wife, no matter how ignorant one is will not be covered by His robe of righteousness. The heart must first be made pure by the indwelling presence of  His  Spirit. Each of the fruits are given  at conversion, not one is missing. Love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance are in the life of the converted Christian. These are not missing. This is Christ, not I.

I am sure that you, Brother Tim, and I are very close in our understanding, but there are many who use these ideas to make a person who is not fully surrendered a "saved" Christian. There is no standard of Christian character to them. Whatever the thoughts and motives, the deficiency is made up by Christ because after all, we are fallen sinners and cannot perfectly obey His law. Therefore, there is no standard to know in whom we trust. We are not saved by our good works, but they testify to ourselves and the universe that it is not I, but Christ enthroned upon the heart. Here many professing Christians have not understood the right relationship between works and faith. Satan has stolen a march on the church and caused many to believe that  good works are not an evidence of conversion. :(  The fruits of His Spirit are the sure results of having made a full surrender to Christ. The works of the flesh reveal the absence of  Christ in the life.

On a positive note, Sister  Donna, there is no reason to not have this experience. It is available to the worst  sinner. Matter of fact, when converted and taken to heaven  they will stand closest to Jesus! Why? Because those who were the greatest sinners were the ones forgiven the most. And, he who is forgiven much, loves much. Those who love Jesus the most will stand closest to Him!

We are saved by grace. Where is grace? It surrounds us and is thicker than the air we breathe. Jesus said "If I be lifted up (and He was) I will draw all men unto me." He does not lie. He is drawing all to Himself. What excuse do we have? None. Jesus is working on our behalf  today. He knows us personally and His great work is to save us into His kingdom! If  He  be for  us, who can be against us!!! He is continually knocking on the door of the heart wanting in. It is only by resistance to that pleading that keeps Him out. If we will learn of Him, He will save us!! If we seek Him,  we shall find Him!!!
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Steve Billiter

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #157 on: February 16, 2010, 07:15:28 AM »
"Each must trust and obey in every particular to their best ability, walking according to the spirit --making no provision for the flesh."

I see no opening for sin in this statement. "making no provision for the flesh" is exactly that, making no provision for sin.

The whole statement to me is very solid, I find no fault with it.

1Pe 2:11  Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

Rom 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Richard, when you say one can be "surprised into sin" or "unpremeditated sin" then you digress from the quote. Please concentrate on "no provision" no means no, it does not mean "yes" in any manner.

Thank you, Steve
Steve Billiter

Richard Myers

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #158 on: February 16, 2010, 08:09:16 AM »
Brother Steve, there is often in life more than we can see. At times God will lead others past what I know. In this case you cannot see what I am saying. Let me try and better explain  what  I mean.

Brother Tim's statement was this: "Each must trust and obey in every particular to their best ability, walking according to the spirit --making no provision for the flesh."   

If  I say this, is it the same thing?   "Each must trust and obey in every particular walking according to the spirit --making no provision for the flesh."   

If  it is not the same, please  share with me why it is not.  In other words, what do you see as "to their best ability" meaning? What does this say to you?
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Steve Billiter

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Re: Investigative Judgment
« Reply #159 on: February 16, 2010, 09:03:35 AM »
Richard, can one do other than their best in cooperation with God? Can you do better than your best? Is anyones best not good enough for you? This does not mean, nor do I mean, we do our best apart from God. No one can make "no provision for the flesh" unless he is empowered by the Spirit.

Tim's statement in my view is rock solid.

Thank you, Steve
Steve Billiter