Messenger Of The Lord

[M.A. Crawford]

Thank you, Sis. Liane, for your comments.

I too am concerned and have a burden for those who were once in our fellowship, but who walk with us no more. In Psalms 34:8, the Bible tells us: "O, taste and see that the Lord is good...." As you alluded to in your post, when one has TASTED OF AND SEEN the love of God--for all who are TRULY DESIROUS of being saved--IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to be satisfied with any other after having "tasted" the Water of Life--God's Holy Word.

M.A.

[M.A. Crawford]

"EGW claimed to do the work of a prophet and much more.

"'My commission embraces the work of a prophet, but it does not end there.' (Selected Messages, Vol. 1, p. 36, 1906).

"That is why many SDAs promote her as a prophet and in practice consider her works infallible."

I do not wish to keep sounding repetitious, but again I say Mrs. White never claimed she was a prophet. While you were quoting what she said in Selected Messages, Book 1, on page 36, you should have mentioned what she said beginning at the bottom of page 35 which reads:

"During the discourse [at Battle Creek, October 2, 1904], I said that I DID NOT CLAIM TO BE A PROPHETESS (Emphasis mine throughout). Some were suprised at this statement, and as much is being said about it, I will make an explanation. Others have called me a prophetess, BUT I HAVE NEVER ASSUMED THE TITLE. I have not felt that it was my duty thus to designate myself. Those who boldly assume that they are prophets in this our day are often a reproach to the cause of Christ.

"My work includes much more than this name signifies. I REGARD MYSELF AS A MESSENGER, entrusted by the Lord with messages for His people.--Letter 55, 1905" (Selected Messages, Book 1, pp. 35-6).

Concerning the infallibility of her writings, Mrs. White states:

"In regard to infallibility, I NEVER CLAIMED IT; God alone is infallible. His word is true, and in Him is no variableness, or shadow of turning.--Letter 10, 1895" (Selected Messages, Book 1, p. 37).

This is the reason why--where one's salvation is concerned--one needs to be VERY, VERY CAREFUL and search the record for oneself before a person believes what someone else serves up as "facts." The devil is very gifted at providing half-truths or  distortions of the facts that have caused many to leave this church because they did not BOTHER TO CHECK what someone said before they accepted it.

M.A.  

[M.A. Crawford]

No matter who makes the claim, Mrs. White was not infallible, nor has she ever claimed infallibility. Prophets or messengers of God all throughout the Bible have made mistakes. Moses smote the rock although God told him to speak to it (Num. 20:8, 11, 12). Elijah ran from Jezebel even after his Mt. Carmel victory (1 Kings 19:1-3). There are other instances in Scripture where prophets and messengers of God have made mistakes and yet remained as His prophets or spokespersons. Peter denied Christ three times, and even cursed (Matt. 26:69-75).

With regard to Mrs. White, Dr. George R. Knight, a respected church historian, writing in his book entitled A Search For Identity: The Development of Seventh-day Adventist Beliefs writes on page 135:

"Not only does Ellen White reject verbal inspiration but she also denies inerrancy. Thus she was more than happy to have the factual erors corrected in such books as The Great Controversy during its revision in 1911...."

Also on page 135, Dr. Knight quotes a letter from Mrs. White's son W. C. White to S. N. Haskell which reads:

"'...I cannot see consistency in our putting forth a claim of verbal inspiration when Mother does not make any such claim, and I certainly think we make a great mistake if we...endeavor to settle historical questions by the use of Mother's books as an authority when she herself does not wish them to be used in any such way' (WCW to SNH, Oct. 31, 1912). At the end of one copy of that letter Ellen White added a postscript, 'I approve of the remarks made in this letter,' and signed her name."

M.A.

[M.A. Crawford]

I have observed over the years that the Seventh-day Adventist Church, unlike many other denominations, has always been a type of arena where individuals can pontificate on just about every theological subject imaginable as if they were the final authority. This is one reason I believe why the Lord in His Wisdom raised up His messenger Ellen G. White for times such as these to provide His people with, in addition to the Bible, that one sure voice among all the voices in the wind that claim to speak for Him. The Lord knew that the devil would try to confuse and confound God's people by having his agents reinterpret the Bible to make It say what they want It to say. The Lord also knew that some of His people would be weak in the faith and would need that reassuring voice of comfort and consolation to help them safely navigate through the treacherous waters of error and deceit.

Looking down the long corridor of time, the Lord organized His little flock to take the Light of Truth to a dying world, and appointed His messenger Ellen G. White to lead out among this little band of believers. And the church has prospered to where it is today. But now I believe the Lord is making yet another call: the call to get back to basics. And when we get back to basics WE GET BACK TO JESUS CHRIST AND THE WORD OF GOD. But the devil, by way of his human agents, has brought about all the confusion over issues such as the Sabbath, the Investigative Judgment, and other pillar doctrines of this church in order to waste time and PROVIDE A DIVERSION from what we really need to be doing.

The devil's primary work is to cause us to be lost. And he does not care how it is accomplished. He knows that OUR PRIMARY WORK right now is to make our calling and election sure by TOTALLY SURRENDERING our lives to Jesus Christ by making JESUS FIRST in every department of our lives: in what we do, what we say, where we go, and even in what we think! And the way we go about doing this is by very carefully and prayerfully studying our Bibles and doing what It says. But, alas! The devil also knows that many professed followers of Christ don't really want to do this. He knows that many only want to have a "form of godliness" (2 Tim. 3:5) while continuing to "play church" and pretending to be so holy and righteous. But the Bible very clearly tells us:

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap" (Gal. 6:7).

I am so glad that God is merciful. But His Mercy shall not endure forever. Scripture tells us that soon and very soon His Wrath shall be poured out unmixed with mercy (Rev. 14:10). But, for those of us who strive to be like the man from Galilee, we have nothing to fear. Those who continue to live "by every word" that proceeds out of the Mouth of God (Matt. 4:4) and order their lives after the Divine Similitude of Jesus Christ (Rom. 13:14) shall be saved.

M.A.

[Brad]

Sister White's writings has brought the Bible alive for me since I have a very difficult time reading the Bible by itself. Its sad to see these people that are attempting to tear her down and not realizing what they are really doing. When I hear these people spew their hate I just tend to turn a deaf ear and ignore them.

[M.A. Crawford]

"The Lord desires you to study your Bibles. He has not given any additional light to take the place of His Word. This Light is to bring confused minds to His Word, which, if eaten and digested, is as the lifeblood of the soul. Then good works will be seen as light shining in darkness.--Letter 130, 1901" (3SM 29).

"In public labor do not make prominent, and quote that which Sister White has written, as authority to sustain your positions. To do this will not increase faith in the testimonies. Bring your evidences, clear and plain, from the Word of God. A 'Thus saith the Lord' is the strongest testimony you can possibly present to the people. Let none be educated to look to Sister White, but to the mighty God, who gives instruction to Sister White.--Letter 11, 1894" (Ibid.).

M.A.

[Clive Nevell]

In the public meetings that I have had something to do with during the last ten years I have never seen our evangelist use SOP to prove or support any of our beliefs. No mention has even been made of her work at least until the study true prophets and then it is not used to prove any doctrines.

This is a good topic and we need to make sure we get strong on the Bible and then we will be like a rock when the SOP is attacked. If we go in reverse many will often fall by the way.

Clive

[M.A. Crawford]

Yes, we do need to make sure we become strong in the Word of God, Bro. Nevell. I am convinced this is why the Lord's messenger said also the following:

"It is my first duty to present Bible principles. Then, unless there is a decided, conscientious reform made by those whose cases have been presented before me, I must appeal to them personally.--Letter 69, 1896" (3SM 30).

"Little heed is given to the Bible, and the Lord has given a lesser light to lead men and women to the greater light.--The Review and Herald, Jan. 20, 1903" (Ibid.).

"How can the Lord bless those who manifest a spirit of 'I don't care,' a spirit which leads them to walk contrary to the light which the Lord has given them? But I do not ask you to take my words. Lay Sister White to one side. Do not quote my words again as long as you live until you can obey the Bible. When you make the Bible your food, your meat, and your drink, when you make its principles the elements of your character, you will know better how to receive counsel from God. I exalt the precious Word before you today. Do not repeat what I have said, saying, 'Sister White said this,' and 'Sister White said that.' Find out what the Lord God of Israel says, and then do what He commands.--Manuscript 43, 1901" (Ibid., p. 33).

M.A.

[M.A. Crawford]

"All who handle the word of God are engaged in a most solemn and sacred work, for in their research they are to receive light and a correct knowledge, that they may give to those who are ignorant. Education is the inculcation of ideas which are light and truth. Everyone who diligently and patiently searches the Scriptures that he may educate others, entering upon the work correctly and with an honest heart, laying his preconceived ideas, whatever they may have been, and his hereditary prejudices at the door of investigation, will gain true knowledge. But it is very easy to put a false interpretation on Scripture, placing stress on passages, and assigning to them a meaning, which, at the first investigation, may appear true, but which on further search, will be seen to be false. If the seeker after truth will compare scripture with scripture, he will find the key that unlocks the treasure house and gives him a true understanding of the word of God. Then he will see that his first impressions would not bear investigation, and that continuing to believe them would be mixing falsehood with truth."--Ms 4, pp. 1, 2 (3MR 430).

"There are many things apparently difficult or obscure, which God will make plain and simple to those who seek an understanding of them. Bit without the guidance of the Holy Spirit we shall be continually liable to wrest the Scriptures or to misinterpret them. There is much reading of the Bible that is without profit and in many cases a positive injury. When the word of God is opened without reverence and without prayer, when the thoughts and affections are not fixed upon God, or in harmony with His will, the mind is clouded with doubts; and in the very study of the Bible, skepticism strengthens. The enemy takes control of the thoughts, and he suggests interpretations that are not correct. Whenever men are not in word and deed seeking to be in harmony with God, then, however learned they may be, they are liable to err in their understanding of Scripture, and it is not safe to trust to their explanations. Those who look to the Scriptures to find discrepencies, have not spiritual insight.With distorted vision they will see many causes for doubt and unbelief in things that are really plain and simple." (Steps To Christ, pp. 110-11).

M.A.

[M.A. Crawford]

"Christians should be preparing for what is soon to break upon the world as an overwhelming suprise, and this preparation they should make by diligently studying the word of God and striving to conform their lives to its precepts. The tremendous issues of eternity demand of us something besides an imaginary religion, a religion of words and forms, where truth is kept in the outer court. God calls for a revival and a reformation. THE WORDS OF THE BIBLE AND THE BIBLE ALONE, SHOULD BE HEARD FROM THE PULPIT (Emphasis mine throughout). But the Bible has been robbed of its power, and the result is seen in a lowering of the tone of spiritual life. In many sermons of today there is not that divine manifestation which awakens the conscience and brings life to the soul. The hearer cannot say, 'Did not our heart burn within us, while He talked with us by the way, and while He opened to us the Scriptures?' Luke 24:32. There are many who are crying out for the living God, longing for the divine presence. LET THE WORD OF GOD speak to the heart. Let those who have heard only tradition and human theories and maxims, hear the voice of Him who can renew the soul unto eternal life." (PK 626).

M.A.

[Randy S]

I believe that the gift of prohecy was demonstrated in the writings of Ellen G. White.  It is interesting, however, how many people object to her writings or their use.  Why do you think that is?

I know that I share some of the blame.  I have sometimes used her statements out of context to try to make my point.  When speaking with non-Adventists I have sometimes quoted her statements when there was a text in scripture that could have been used instead.  I have sometimes quoted her in ways that would imply that I believed that she was infallible when, of course, she isn't and never contended that she was.

I think we have been blessed with a great deal of critical information for the world today.  It is a shame to damage the credibility of the source by misusing the statements.

[M.A. Crawford]

"It is interesting, however, how many people object to her writings or their use. Why do you think that is?"

If you will read some of my earlier posts, I believe they will shed some light on your question. I engaged in a very spirited dialogue with an individual who was anti-Ellen G. White. He had his reasons why he believed as he did. And what I gleaned from his statements was the fact that, no matter what I said in defense of Mrs. White writings, HIS MIND WAS MADE UP!! He would accept none of it.

That's the very same attitude those had toward Christ and God's prophets who were supposed to be the people of God. THEIR MINDS WERE MADE UP!! So much so until it led them to crucify Christ and kill God's prophets. So it is with us today: people believe what they want to believe, even when there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary. If something clashes with their belief system, they will often react to it by way of rejection.

I have an appointment I must keep. Hopefully, I have shed some light in answer to your question.

M.A.  

[Randy S]

Actually, M.A., I had read each and every post in the thread before I asked my question.  I was speaking more generically and not about this specific individuals issues with EGW.  Since I assume this individual is not a member here it would not be possible to engage this particular person in a discussion.  I was asking more generically why you thought so many people had issues with the writings of EGW.

I suggested contributing factors for which I have been responsible in the past.  Many people seem to have negative impressions of Mrs. White without even having studied what she wrote.  I think the way we use use her writings may contribute to the problem.  Perhaps no one else has made those mistakes besides me.

[Joan]

Randy,

Glad you brought this up. I too, want to understand what is causing this apparent shuddering in reaction to quotes from Ellen White.  It is such a spiritual loss when listeners see what is coming at them through their mind's window and they quickly go to shut the shutters.

Perhaps it is a knee-jerk based on biases.
You  know those kind of prejudices based on misconceived conceptions, like for instance...

1. YIKERS! A woman speaking with authority on gospel truths ? aye,aye...this can not be. No Way!

2. Is she not like a woman that's off kilter like Mary Bakker Eddy?

3.  Would to goodness that this person who is quoting EGW would give up the delving into the past century for a rule of standard. We are to listen to contempory religious leaders. At least they know what our lives are all about in this age.

Randy, I sense such and more of the above mentioned prejudices are biasing many against even listening to her writings. But when the person is rejecting the truths she is speaking of, they are rejecting bible truths as well on many points certainly.

There is the same tone and Spirit in the writings of Ellen G. White as to be found in the over all tone and purposes of the authors of our blessed Bible.

Joan

[Richard Myers]

Welcome, Brother Randy.  Good to have you online with us!  

I think your question is a good one. I know I have been very concerned many times when I have seen the Spirit of Prophecy used out of context making Ellen White say something she never said. Yes, the words were hers and yes they were quoted, but they were used in such a way to make Sister White lie, which she never did.

It is interesting to note that Ellen White knew this would be done and would not give permission for others to use her writings in their works. One of the great blessings that I have received is having read all of Ellen White's published books in their context. I have read very little of what others have said she said, but rather what she actually said in the original setting. The exceptions to this are some of the EGW Trustee books. I treat them differently, though.

I believe one of the best places to use the counsels we have been given is in our personal life, our church board meetings, and each church institution where light was given for their successful ministry.

Beating others over the head with the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy was not God's intent. When we walk in the light as He is in the light, then we shall discern the correct application in our own lives and sometimes we may be able to help others.  

Again, welcome Brother Randy!

Richard

[JimB]

This year at campmeeting I took a seminar(class) called "In Defense of the Faith". It taught by a pastor who has written a book in response to a video that was anti Ellen White and anti SDA.

Some time during the discussion that week he said that he ran across an ex-pentacostal preacher that became SDA because he saw all the anti-Ellen White garbage that is on the web and in books that he said... (my paraphrase here )  "...if she is attacked that much and with such a mean spirit that she must be a true prophet..."

If only more people were that discerning!  

[This message has been edited by JimB (edited 07-11-2002).]

[M.A. Crawford]

"The testimonies of Sister White should not be carried to the front. God's Word is the unerring standard. The Testimonies are not to take the place of the Word. Great care should be exercised by all believers to advance these questions carefully, and always stop when you have said enough. Let all prove their positions from the Scriptures and substantiate every point they claim as truth from the revealed Word of God."--Letter 12, 1890. (Ev 256).

M.A.

[M.A. Crawford]

"The more we look at the promises of the Word of God, the brighter they grow. The more we practice them, the deeper will be our understanding of them. Our position and faith is in the Bible. And never do we want to bring in the Testimonies ahead of the Bible."--Manuscript 7, 1894. (Ev 256).

M.A.

[Claudia Marie]

Hi,

a Jewish person said this about Ellen White being a prophet. How would you answer them about what they said? (what they said is down below)

============

we also know that there are false prophets gone out into the world. What are the prophecies of Ellen White and how do they stand the test of truth?

quote:
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I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said the angel: "Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus." Testimonies, Vol. 1, p. 131
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This "word" given in 1856 can not be true since none of the people present at that conference were subject to the tribulation or present at the parousia.

quote:
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"What we have seen and heard of the pestilence, is but the beginning of what we shall see and hear. Soon the dead and dying will be all around us." (Present Truth, Sept. 1849).
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Did either James or Ellen White see and here the dead rise around them before they joined them in death?
By 1850, according to Mrs. White we only had a few months left...

quote:
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"My accompanying angel said, 'Time is almost finished. Get ready, get ready, get ready.' . . . now time is almost finished. . . and what we have been years learning, they will have to learn in a few months." (Early Writings, pp. 64-67).
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1 Yochanon 4:1 Many false prophets are gone out into the world.

It constantly amazes me that the loudest cry that they alone are the restoration of the office of Prophet is not from the real prophets of G-d but from the false prophet who so often substitutes their false proclamations for the true work of the Ruach. And why is it that so many of them seem to get their prophecies from angels? Real prophets hear from and speak for G-d!

[Randy S]

If I might offer a reponse, Claudia, it would be as follows:

In the last quote, the first and last sentence of the quote are seperated by three full pages in between!  I would suggest they read the intervening pages.  The quote makes it appear that the angel and/or EGW are claiming that the Lord is coming within a few months.  But I do not believe that is the case.  Rather EGW, and it's not the angel that is being quoted, is saying that as the end draws close, some will have only a short time to gain the Christian development that many of us have had a lifetime to develop.

The second quote I think is misunderstood.  EGW is not saying that the dead would be raised in her lifetime.  She is saying that "soon" many would fall dead and dying from pestilense.  The word soon is not time specific.  Though I suspect it has not happened as soon as she would have expected.

And that brings up the final, first quote.  Clearly that turned out to be wrong.  It brings to mind many texts in the New Testament which make it clear that the early believers expected Christ to come "soon", maybe even in their lifetimes.  Yet we're still here.  It seems that God has a reason for wanting us to be always ready, expecting him to come back soon.  Indeed, since death can come without warning and since we are too often slack concerning our mission, I can see good reason for this.  But since your questioner is a Jew, they will not be persuaded by New Testament comparisons.

Yet, there is a similar situation in the Old Testament that may shed light.  Have you ever noticed that God allowed people to believe that he was not omniscient or omnipresent for thousands of years?  When God walked in the garden following Adam's sin he called out, "Adam, where are you?".  Subsequently, he asked Adam whether he had eaten of the forbidden tree.  Yet we know that God knew where Adam was hiding, and he knew that Adam had sinned.  Likewise, Job seeks to present his case before God, implying that if only God knew what injustice was being done, that God would correct the situation.  But we know that God knew exactly what was happening.  And when God met with Abraham regarding Sodom and Gomorah, he said that he had heard that Sodom was wicked, and that he had come to see for himself.  But we know that God knew the truth about Sodom before he ever left Heaven.

God had a reason for not revealing the truth that he was omniscient and omnipresent.  For some reason God has also allowed the idea to persist that his second coming is imminent.  It is also possible that we have played a role in delaying God's return.  There are conditional prophecies in the Old Testament, though a Jew would probably view them as still possible future prophecies.  If that is their response I would point them to Daniel's 490 year prophecy pointing to the coming of the Messiah.  Perhaps an opportunity to witness!  Either Daniel is a false prophet or Jesus was the Messiah!

[This message has been edited by Randy S (edited 08-31-2002).]