Author Topic: Bible Translations  (Read 104881 times)

0 Members and 5 Guests are viewing this topic.

Richard Myers

  • Servant
  • Posts: 38514
  • A glorious sunset teaches of trust and faith.....
    • The Remnant Online
Bible Translations
« on: July 02, 2001, 10:06:00 PM »
There is great concern with the increasing use within churches today of the modern "bible" translations, especially the NIV. For many years I have encouraged all that I can to use the King James version of the Bible. Let us discuss the situation and learn why the concern.

In His love and grace,    Richard

[This message has been edited by Richard Myers (edited 07-04-2001).]

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Clive Nevell

  • Regular Member
  • Posts: 7256
    • http://
Re: Bible Translations
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2001, 05:29:00 AM »
Brother Richard
I will try and find some information about the N.I.V. It is available although I am not certain it is on the internet. I recall  a book put out about it by a non-Adventist and also a recent tape from Elder Lawrence Nelson delt with it.
From memory it does leave much out and change other things. In Hebrews the NIV has Christ going into the Most Holy place where as the KJV has Christ only going into the Holy place. Even the NJKV is not as good as I thought it was.
Blessings
Clive

Kelly Youngberg

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 164
Re: Bible Translations
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2001, 07:39:00 AM »
One of the difficulties of using any Bible translation is that we are always at the mercy of the translators. Perhaps it is safer, when one is not familiar with the original language, to use multiple translations in Bible study. There are many instances in which a word or passage is not clear, and the translator must make a decision.

In my own experience, the KJV eventually became impractical for daily use...and I grew up reading it. I imagine asking children to memorize from the KJV (as I did) is also impractical. English is no longer spoken in that fashion, and use of the KJV by children is one more way to make the Bible and its contents irrelevant to them.

This is not to say that the KJV doesn't have its grand moments. As a child, I memorized the story of Christ's birth from Luke 2 for a Christmas program. Today, when I hear that passage read, I recite the KJV in my head.


Dugald T Lewis MD

  • Moderator at Rest
  • Posts: 2599
    • http://www.drdugaldlewis.com
Re: Bible Translations
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2001, 03:15:00 PM »
After many years of experimenting with many other versions, I am back to the good old KJV

Richard Myers

  • Servant
  • Posts: 38514
  • A glorious sunset teaches of trust and faith.....
    • The Remnant Online
Re: Bible Translations
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2001, 04:21:00 PM »
Sister Kelly, I agree that the KJV is difficult at times, but many who do not like it, love Shakespeare and find no objection to teaching it in our schools even though we have been told not to teach it. It seems that when old English is not in the Bible the greatest critics of the KJV (the proponents of NIV) love it. They consider it very "sophisticated" and the best of English. How much better to teach the children when they are young.

I was one who bought NIVs for my friends and told them to get a Bible they could understand. I have repented. The KJV is beautiful and children can understand it when it is taught properly. When we use multiple versions for teaching, we have the problem of getting confused over just what the Bible says. We have multiple translations running around in the mind. Our great difficulty in understanding the Bible is not because of the language, but from a lack of spirituality. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

It would be good to have a modern translation we could trust, but I am afraid I cannot recommend one. So, as far as I can see, we are left with the KJV. The evangelicals use the NIV for good reason, it supports their theology. The liberals in our church tend to use the NIV, for good reason.

All this is just so much commentary, but we shall have to look at the NIV in detail so as to discern the deception being used.

In His love and grace,      Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Clive Nevell

  • Regular Member
  • Posts: 7256
    • http://
Re: Bible Translations
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2001, 10:09:00 PM »
A few years ago now at a Camp meeting the Bibles were on special so I bought one, NKJV.
It was around the $60 mark reduced from over $100. I had done a good deal.
At Church listening to the preacher one day I heard him quote from John 5:24 NKJV
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgement, but has passed from death into life."
Then he went onto say, there you are, once you accpet Christ there is no judgemnet.

At home I checked out the KJV, it say "...shall not come into condemnation..."

There is a big difference, at least to me there is.

This is just one of many examples where the meaning of the text is changed.

The NKJV is not as good as most people think.
Heb. 9:12
"...He entered the Most Holy Place once for all..."
KJV
"...he entered in once into the holy place..."

Where did Christ go? The Holy or Most Holy.

NKJV has done away with the Judgement and now the Sanctuary truth as we know it.

Blessings
Clive


DHThiele

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 398
Re: Bible Translations
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2001, 04:49:00 AM »
I have done extensive study on this topic because I believe that Satan's last effort to confuse people about the true gospel will be to provide Bibles which pervert it, especially since he is now unable to keep the true gospel out of the hands of the general population.

I had the privilege of comparing the modern translations with a hexapla printed in 1846. This hexapla had the received text (Greek) in the top margin, with six New Testament translations in their original English translations, starting with the Wyclif. The comparison was astonishing because, with a little knowledge of reformation history, one could understand that the differences in meaning was directly linked to one of two theologies -- Roman Catholic or Protestant.

The modern translations were consistent with the Wyclif and Rheims translations. (Wyclif's translation was consistent with the RC meanings, probably because he translated from the Latin Vulgate since he had no Greek manuscripts available to him. The Turks had not yet invaded Eastern Europe, thus causing the migration of refugees who brought Greek manuscripts with them. And the Vatican had forbade the study of Greek prior to that time. In fact, Erasmus was in as much hot water as his contemporary, Luther, for even compiling the Greek manuscripts which are now known as the received text. Unlike Luther, Erasmus remained RC. But the damage had been done. Those Greek manuscripts were translated by Luther into German, and into English by Tyndale.)

There is no doubt in my mind that the modern translations are attempts to bring about a successful conclusion to the counter-reformation in this age -- the ecumenical movement.


Richard Myers

  • Servant
  • Posts: 38514
  • A glorious sunset teaches of trust and faith.....
    • The Remnant Online
Re: Bible Translations
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2001, 06:13:00 AM »
Thank you, Brother Thiele. This will a blessing for me as we look into this subject. When I was converted I went to all of the different denominations looking for a church. I had purchased a paperback Bible and was ready to purchase a leather bound one. I asked a Baptist minister which version I should purchase and he said the NIV. I bought a beautiful leather bound NIV and began my studies, Bible marking, and memorization of Scripture from this NIV. Soon after I became convinced from my studies and questioning of Sunday theologians, mostly Walter Martin, that the fouth commandment had not been done away with. I began attdending a Seventh-day Adventist Church. It was not long before I realized God had entrusted His sacred oracles to the Seventh-day Adventist Church. One morning as I was reading my NIV I became very concerned as I realized the passage I was reading was leading me away from the truth.

At this point in my Christian experience the Bible was my counselor and I trusted it implicitly. To think that it could be wrong was something that was causing me great concern. I had been telling my friends to buy modern translations so they would not have to learn a foreign language, old English. It seemed that I had made a rather large mistake. I considered the condition of the Protestant churches and realized who had been doing the modern translations. Why should those who are called Babylon do a proper translation of the Bible? I purchased the dreaded KJV which had been translated so many years ago and closed my NIV never to open it again.

Since being led by the Spirit to use the KJV I have discussed the matter with many faithful Seventh-day Adventists and those of other faiths who believe as I do.  Some have revealed what they have learned and it has been confirmed over and over that many of the new translations have taken great liberty in changing the doctrines once delivered to the saints.

There are quite a few books written on the subject, but I have neglected to read them because I already understand the issue and years ago made the decision to use the KJV. As I stated in my opening post, I encourage others to use the KJV, but have not made an issue in the church over it. The pastors in my local church have always used the KJV so there was never the need to make it an issue. The adult quarterly would quote from the modern translations sometimes more than others, but it had improved greatly under the new leadership beginning about eight or ten years ago.

With the introduction of the NIV to our children through "Gracelink" we have no choice but to explain the deception of the new "bible" to our people. May God grant us grace to do so in a manner that will help many to see the truth.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Liane H

  • Regular Member
  • Posts: 2365
    • http://
Re: Bible Translations
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2001, 06:53:00 AM »
Hi Brethren:

Back in 1992 while I was at Wildwood, in their bookstore I came across a book called, "The S.D.A. Bible." This had just been revised in May, 1992.

It was written by Gar Baybrook and came from the press of Leaves-of-Autumn Books. It goes through each of the translations and how they got started, who started them and does a comparison of verses with the KJV to show how the truth is being distorted.

For those of us that are not scholars, this is a great book, only 197 pages long in a 8x11 format. Whether it can be gotten at Wildwood or Leaves-of-Autumn I do not know.

Since I use only the KJV and use no other version, I keep myself safe. Have been grateful for stumbling upon this book, I as many have done would have gotten one of these newer versions because of the easy reading.

Just to give you an example of the KJV and the NKJV of verse Matt 18:3

KJV:

And said, VErily I say unto you, Except ye "be" converted, and bcome as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

NKJV:

And said, assuredly, I say to you, unless you "are" converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

To "be" specifically points to an outside force upon you, whereas "are" can mean you turned of your own will or it could still mean being acted upon by the Holy Spirit, but it is not as convincing.

So little words can change whole meanings when it comes to salvation and this was just a change from the KJV to the NKJV.

Liane

Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

DHThiele

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 398
Re: Bible Translations
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2001, 06:57:00 AM »
I have done some work in comparing the modern translations with the translations in this 1846 Hexapla. If anyone would like me to send the file to them, please email me a request.

The file consists of two columns comparing important passages from scripture with each other. It is easy to see the difference in meaning as one sees the changes made to verb tenses, prepositions and their phrases, and the usage of synonyms (i.e. judgment, condemnation used in an earlier post).


Richard Myers

  • Servant
  • Posts: 38514
  • A glorious sunset teaches of trust and faith.....
    • The Remnant Online
Re: Bible Translations
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2001, 07:00:00 AM »
I began this topic here in an SDA forum because of the connection with Gracelink, but in contemplating the nature of the topic, I believe it would be better to put the subject in the BOL forum.  There is no need to make this a Seventh-day Adventist topic. It is something that we may discuss without bringing the church into the conversation. Is there any reason to not move the topic to the BOL forum?

Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Liane H

  • Regular Member
  • Posts: 2365
    • http://
Re: Bible Translations
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2001, 07:53:00 AM »
I think it would be a great idea. It might help everyone to see what is happening to the Bible.

It could open the minds of many to what is happening in these latter days to the Word.

Liane

Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

DHThiele

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 398
Re: Bible Translations
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2001, 01:28:00 PM »
What few people know and understand that there is a dangerous marketing ploy used to sell the modern translations -- that they are "based" on the oldest manuscripts discovered and are therefore the most accurate manuscripts because they are closer in time to the original manuscripts.

The simple fact is that the oldest manuscripts were found in regions where the climate was conducive to preservation, and that those manuscripts were not being used.

The reason why the received text consists of the majority of manuscripts (which basically agree with each other) and that those manuscripts are more recent is because they were in regions less conducive to preservation by reason of climate, and because they were used (therefore wearing out more quickly). The simple fact that they agree with each other to a greater degree than the older manuscripts is because they were being copied with integrity and diligence.

The reason why the older manuscripts are fewer in number is because they were largely keep from the people (therefore not used much), and because the differences were recognized as heresy by the faithful. The oldest manuscripts found at the monastary in Sinai, and named for that monastary, were actually being used as tender to start the monks fires for cooking. Were they really so illiterate that they couldn't tell the importance of those manuscripts? Maybe. After all, the study of Greek had been banned by the Vatican throughout the Dark Ages. But that doesn't change the fact that almost all historians and translators recognize that those manuscripts were copies of the original work of an heretic who openly taught doctrine which was contrary to the scriptures.

It is important to obtain knowledge and understanding on this issue.


Wendy

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1834
    • http://www.megspace.com/religion/cainan/
Re: Bible Translations
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2001, 04:49:00 PM »
Those are interesting facts, where did you learn that about the Sinai manuscripts?

------------------
WendyL ~ Maranatha!:)

WendyL ~ Maranatha!:)

DHThiele

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 398
Re: Bible Translations
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2001, 06:17:00 PM »
Wendy,

There are several books that have been written on the subject of the translations. I have at least four. I read about the Sinai manuscripts in those books. But I cannot give the source because we are in the midst of preparing to move. My wife packed them.

So, I will be able to give the source after our move.


Kelly Youngberg

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 164
Re: Bible Translations
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2001, 05:13:00 AM »
I have always wondered why those who have a high concern for biblical accuracy do not study the original languages and use them in their study.

The language of the KJV may be the language of Shakespeare, but I don't read Shakespeare every day (I don't even read Shakespeare every year). And yes, spiritual things are spiritually discerned...my own spiritual walk gives evidence.

However, I find that I need a Bible that I can read well. Of course accuracy is a concern. However, accuracy in relation to the original text should be the highest concern. I worry when people compare one translation to another and say that one is better because it says what they want it to say. It is better to compare a translation to the original language in order to find out what the author meant to say.


Richard Myers

  • Servant
  • Posts: 38514
  • A glorious sunset teaches of trust and faith.....
    • The Remnant Online
Re: Bible Translations
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2001, 06:32:00 AM »
Sister Kelly, this will be an interesting discussion as many things will come out that will benefit those looking for truth. As you say there are some that are not, but rather just want to "prove" what they already believe. You say "accuracy in relation to the original text should be the highest concern." Along this line I have two questions for you. What is the "original text"?  And, do you read a second language? If so, then you understand one cannot accurately translate many passages word by word. One must know the language to translate accurately.

Yes, some can learn the language, but what do you suggest for those that do not learn Hebrew and Greek?  You say "I have always wondered why those who have a high concern for biblical accuracy do not study the original languages and use them in their study." What Christian does not have a high concern for Biblical accuracy? If we are looking to the Bible as the rule of our life, we all ought to have a "high concern" for its accuracy. This the reason for this topic. Many are trusting in "bibles" that are leading them away from the truth. They are led to believe they have a Christian experience when they do not have a "living" experience. As you said, you can see the evidence in your life of Christ within, but many today deny this direct relationship and one of the reasons for believing such is they are placing their faith in the the theology of the new "bibles".
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Kelly Youngberg

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 164
Re: Bible Translations
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2001, 08:54:00 AM »
Richard,

Indeed we should all have a high concern for accuracy in our translations. I am well aware that it is impossible to directly translate one language, word for word, to another. That's why I find it dangerous to stay with only one translation. One can know the original language well, but still find oneself presented with choices at the point of translation.

Of course, it's impractical to expect all Christians to learn the original languages of the Bible. One way to get a clearer picture of the original writer's intent is to use multiple translations in study, with the understanding that all study should be led by the Holy Spirit.

I am not fond of the practice of taking a text in one English translation and comparing it to another, and then saying that the second translation is somehow inferior to the first because it is translated differently. I think it is an intellectually weak practice. Different could be wrong, but it could also be right. Without further investigation, a decision should not be made.

As for original texts...well, there's a question I'm not qualified to answer. However, I'm aware that no original texts of any part of the Bible still exist, so perhaps I should not have used that word. Even then, the "original" (can't quickly think of another word) texts used for translation are not identical to one another. Yet another place for translators to make a decision.

Lest you think that I think that we should throw all caution to the wind...my prayer partner recently converted from Catholicism. During her entire period of study, she used her Catholic Bible. In fact, she's still using her Catholic Bible. She confesses that she's attached to it. I suspect (since I know the people who led her through Bible studies) that she was told that God's Word is God's Word, and that the truth could be found in her Bible, too...which she did. She won't stay with it always...we've had a brief discussion about it already. But when it's time, she'll move on.

Kelly


DHThiele

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 398
Re: Bible Translations
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2001, 12:36:00 PM »
Kelly,

In your last post, you said, "I am not fond of the practice of taking a text in one English translation and comparing it to another, and then saying that the second translation is somehow inferior to the first because it is translated differently. I think it is an intellectually weak practice. Different could be wrong, but it could also be right. Without further investigation, a decision should not be made."

Frankly, it is not a matter of "different" or "inferior". It is a matter of right or wrong. Why? Because it is a matter of doctrine, reproof, teaching, etc.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works" II Timothy 3:16, 17.

It is Satan's studied effort to pervert the Gospel of Christ so as to deceive, if it were possible, the very elect. One of the most effective ways to do that is to pervert the scriptures so that they appear to support false doctrine.

There are many texts that are perverted in the modern Bibles. The work of the reformers was to get Bibles into the common language of the people, so that they read for themselves what the Gospel is. Those who wrote the original manuscripts did so in the common Greek, not that used by the nobility and the highly educated. Believe it or not, while the KJV has some archaic words, that translation requires a lower reading level (between 4th and 6th grade) than the modern versions (between the 10th grade and college levels).

The KJV tends to use monosyllabic words where as the modern translations use polysyllabic words. Where the KJV uses words like "coasts" to convey borders, the NIV uses the word "environs". What does that mean? I read "environs" and think "environment"? Sounds like it is refering to ecology and weather, not borders.

But what is really of great importance is the fact that the Bible is intended by God to teach doctrine. Should I read a Bible that supports mariology (the RC doctrine that Mary is co-redemptrix and co-mediatrix)? If so, the NIV and other modern tend to support that doctrine by the way it refers to Jesus' parentage (KJV - "Joseph and his mother"; modern versions - "his father and mother" in Luke 2:33). The modern translations refer to Mary in prophecy as a matter of position rather than condition (KJV - "a virgin shall conceive"; modern translations - "the virgin shall conceive" in Isaiah 7:14). The modern translations do what they can to slip immortality of the human soul into the Bible by changing something as simple as a preposition (KJV - "yet in my flesh I shall see God"; modern translations - "from" or "without" in Job 19:26, thus making the experience possible even while the worms are destroying the body, instead of the "after" mentioned in the KJV). Want to know how to make the Creation Sabbath expendable? In the KJV the fourth commandment refers to "the Sabbath" of the Lord our God. Modern translations change the article, a reversing of what they did to the Virgin of Isaiah, by stating that the "seventh day is a sabbath" as though it is one of many, anyone of which could be altered (compare KJV with modern versions in Exodus 20:10).

Folks, it is really dangerous to take a nonchalant approach to what you believe the Bible teaches. While it is possible to learn about Jesus, and what He did for us, it is very easy to be deceived into believing false teaching that could impair, even overturn, your salvation of which Peter warns in II Peter 2:1, 2, "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of."


Richard Myers

  • Servant
  • Posts: 38514
  • A glorious sunset teaches of trust and faith.....
    • The Remnant Online
Re: Bible Translations
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2001, 01:48:00 PM »
Thank you, Brother Thiele. Very well written.  Your examples of some of the passages are very good ones. I am always amazed as I hear of new ones. Amazed is not a very good choice of words, but it is rather amazing that such a deed could be done so effectively. The devil is very clever.

Sister Kelly, we would really be in big trouble if we started with the wrong "original" manuscripts. I like what our Brother Thiele has stated. We must know if the text is right or wrong, not just different. Of course it takes further study. This is the whole point as I see it.  How does one know if the text is incorrect? It disagrees with correct doctrine.  We seem to have  a problem here. Which comes first the chicken or the egg?  How can we know correct doctrine without correct texts?<P>I began my Bible study with the NIV. Using my NIV I discovered the Sabbath truth and I understood the truth of the papacy. The gospel was becoming very clear in regards to the power of grace to transform the life. There was a great advantage that was given me as I studied. I had no bad seed planted from Babylonian churches. My Christian experience had been interrupted when I was 13 and up until that point in my life I had only been indoctrinated with the ten commandments and the golden rule, I had been an Episcopalian.

There must be consistency in the Bible. We find this in the truth, but we do not find this in a lie. The new "bibles" have not been changed enough to make then consistent even in their untruths. When we read the sermon on the mount in Matthew, we have been given some very powerful statements of truth, even in the NIV, as I remember. This of course leads to contradictions in the NIV when passages are changed to teach "another" gospel.

As we progress through our study we shall see many examples of what I am speaking of. The evidence of a true interpretation is that it is consistent with the whole of the Bible. Two additional points that are very important. The Holy Spirit is the witness that it is true and God does not leave us without even human help. He protects His truth. He sends help through the human channel. One such help promised is that of modern day prophets. Do we have help of this nature? Hundreds of thousands of pages that are in harmony with the KJV, the Spirit of Prophecy.  God has sent us help so that we might not err. He would send the angels if necessary to help us get a correct understanding of the Bible. It is His Word and He wants it protected.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.