Author Topic: Present truth  (Read 11711 times)

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M.A. Crawford

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Present truth
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2001, 07:16:00 AM »
"If we say that the Laodicean message is applicable today, then we are making a judgment independent of the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy."

I believe if one reads very carefully my post dated 05-07-2001 at 09:58 AM, it will be clearly seen that Scriptural references have been provided in support of the Laodicean message of Revelation 3 as being present truth. Also the SDA Bible Commentary quote in this post very clearly states that: "Since the message to the seven churches reflect the entire course of the history of the Christian church...the seventh message must represent the experience of the church during the closing period of earth's history." I believe we are in the closing period of earth's history.

M.A.  

M.A.

DavidTBattler

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« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2001, 07:17:00 AM »
Thankyou for clarifying MA.   :)

I agree with you.  Rev.3 should be clearly demonstrated as either or here.  

I am of the opinion that we have no choice to accept the Bible as it reads here.  The whole Bible is for the whole time that the church waits for their Lord.

How can Rev.3 not apply to us today?  How can we just say that there is some cut off date where it wouldn't apply?  How can we do that to any part of the Bible?

There is much Truth in all the Bible, for all the people for all of time!

Obviously, some will purify themselves, and put on the robe of Christ's righteousness; but how does that make Rev.3 not applicable to the church today?

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"Know the grace of God in Truth."  (Col.1:6).

Your brother in Christ

David T. Battler


Harry Elliott

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« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2001, 08:50:00 AM »
M.A. pointed out that the first use of “present truth” in our history was in reference to the Millerites’ teachings. That is, that Jesus would come at the end of the 2300 days, and that the 2300 days would end in 1843.

Those points are not present truth today, of course.  But should we consider them to have been present TRUTH even then, since we now know that they weren’t true?

I’d like to hear any thoughts on this, since the same question would hold for other temporarily held positions.

--Harry


Claudia Marie

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« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2001, 09:10:00 AM »
Im sorry, Richard, everyone else, and especially David for getting upset. I just have been through an awful lot and so Im touchy about some subjects, I guess.

If it wasnt for the Independent Ministries, I would of never found out a whole lot of things about correct theology and wouldnt of gotten out of the New Theology that I was involved in. And I suppose that I get upset at the implication that "all" Independent Ministries are this or that, because I believe they are not all that way.


======

anyway, as far as the part about whether or not we are in the Laodicean condition, I think we are... Here's just a few quotes I think may apply:

S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 7, page 961, paragraph 5
Chapter Title: Revelation
(Rom. 2:17-24.) Application of Laodicean Message.--The message to the Laodicean church is applicable to all who have had great light and many opportunities, and yet have not appreciated them (RH March 11, 1902).

S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 7, page 961, paragraph 6
Chapter Title: Revelation
(Ch. 2:4, 5.) Fervor of Love Lacking.--The message to the Laodicean church is applicable to our condition. How plainly is pictured the position of those who think they have all the truth, who take pride in their knowledge of the Word of God, while its sanctifying power has not been felt in their lives. The fervor of the love of God is wanting in their hearts, but it is this very fervor of love that makes God's people the light of the world (RH July 23, 1889).

S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 7, page 961, paragraph 7
Chapter Title: Revelation
Laodicean Message for Adventists.--The message to the Laodicean church is highly applicable to us as a people. It has been placed before us for a long time, but has not been heeded as it should have been. When the work of repentance is earnest and deep, the individual members of the church will buy the rich goods of heaven. [Rev. 3:18 quoted.] Oh, how many behold things in a perverted light, in the light in which Satan would have them see.

S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 7, page 962, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: Revelation
Professors but Not Doers.--The Laodicean message applies to all who profess to keep the law of God, and yet are not doers of it. We are not to be selfish in anything. Every phase of the Christian life is to be a representation of the life of Christ. If it is not, we shall hear the terrible words, "I know you not" (RH Oct. 17, 1899).


========
Early Writings of Ellen G. White, page 270, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: Spiritual Gifts
I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen and was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans. This will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver, and will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. Some will not bear this straight testimony. They will rise up against it, and this is what will cause a shaking among God's people.

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and as you can see, some will have the Spirit of God upon them and be led to pour forth the Stright Testimony Message to the Church, our church as well as other denominations. I wish I could find the quote I had a long time ago from the Spirit of Prophecy. It said that the Message of the True Witness was to be given both to other denominations and to ours as well... plainly said that.

Claudia

Claudia

Claudia Marie

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« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2001, 09:25:00 AM »
David,

I think you made a really good post concerning the kindness part and also the message of hope..

Our High Calling, page 351, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: A Message Full of Encouragement
The counsel of the true Witness does not represent those who are lukewarm as in a hopeless case. There is yet a chance to remedy their state, and the Laodicean message is full of encouragement. . . . Purity of heart, purity of motive, may yet characterize those who are halfhearted and who are striving to serve God and mammon. They may yet wash their robes of character and make them white in the blood of the Lamb."

I remember reading something, I think it was in the Patriarchs and Prophets, about Saul when he went to the Witch of Endor. Ellen White said that Satan told him the truth but left him in a state of discouragement. And that he often tells the truth but doesnt give after that, the uplifting message of forgiveness if we return to God, and so on.

I think this kinda falls under the thing about Isaiah. In Prophets and kings, I believe, it talks about how Isaiah's message about "beholding your God" (the chapter is called that) =that he tells the people about God's forgiveness if they return to Him and depart from their sins, and that this is our message for the last days.

If you think about it, its also kinda like when Satan stands to accuse Joshua. He does tell the truth about Joshua's sins. But if he repented, which he did, then its another story, and people need to hear that.

There's been so many times in the past that I remember, either getting upset when I found out that the truth about something that had to do with my spiritual condition had been glossed over by some preacher. And then I'd get just as upset when some other preacher would rail about the sin but just kind of leave me in a state of discouragement over it.

I think not only do we need to hear the words of reproof, but also we need to hear that we will be accepted back by God, that He will give the strength to perform what he acts of us... AND another important thing is we need to hear HOW to go about doing the thing we havent done in the past. That was my problem, I knew I wasnt doing this and that thing, Id feel guilty over it, but nobody would bother tell let me know HOW to overcome the sins.

Claudia


Claudia

Claudia Marie

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« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2001, 09:28:00 AM »
Dugland and Richard:

I just wanted to say that I appreciate your posts, and that I think that I was wrong to get all bent out of shape. I believe its from being on another forum where most the people were liberals, and I got so used to expecting attacks about certain things.

anyway Im really sorry how I reacted towards David and I'll be sure to remember to go to the other section of the forum if I ever feel like I need to say anything again. and if I do, I'll be sure to try and be less growly about it.

Claudia

Claudia

L.Picard

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« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2001, 05:44:00 PM »
Is this not "present truth? "Let those who have heard only traditions and human theories and maxims hear the Voice of Him whose Word can renew the soul unto everlasting life," for "His commandment is life everlasting." John 12:50; C.O.L.40.

God called the worlds into existence by His Word. "By the Word of the Lord were the heavens made." Ps.33:6. Before He spoke, there were no worlds. Once He spoke, there they were! "He calls those things which be not as though they were." Rom.4:17. We are naught. Gal.6:3. But He calls those things which be naught as though they were! "He calls those things which are naught." 1 Cor.1:28. He calls us from darkness, from nothingness, into His marvelous light by His Word which says to us: "Let the light of the glory of God shining in the face of Jesus Christ shine in the darkened void of your heart ," and it is so if we "believe His commandment." Ps.119:66.

This is the Word which by the Gospel is preached unto us! 1 Peter 1:25. "We were once darkness but NOW (after hearing the Word of the Gospel and believing it) we are light in the Lord." 2 Cor.4:6; Eph.1:13; Ps.119:66; Eph.5:8.

He calls us unto Himself by His spoken Word. Those of us who believe are "the called" according to His commandment, according to His will, and the Holy Spirit is given to us. This is the light that was shining in the face of Jesus Christ, "the Spirit of glory and of God." 1 Peter 4:14; 2 Thess.2:14.

Those of us who respond by saying, "Be it done unto me according as You have commanded," the Word is allowed "to have free course" in us and it is done unto us according to the commandment! 2 Thess.3:1; 1 Thess.2:13.

Therefore, to them the Lord says, "Rise, shine, for thy light is come and the glory of the Lord has risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the peoples, but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and His glory shall be seen upon thee. And the nations shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising." Isaiah 60:1-3.

For "We have been called to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." 2 Thess.2:14. Did not Jesus say, "The glory (light of the glory of God) Thou hast given Me, I have given them." John 17:17. He gives us the light of God's glory, the Holy Spirit, by calling us out of darkness into His marvellous light. 1 Peter 2:9. He calls us by His Word. "He speaks and it is done; He commands and it stands fast." Ps.33:6,9. "He shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light and thy justice as the noonday." Ps.37:6. And "Your peace shall be like a river and your righteousness as the waves of the sea." Isaiah 48:18. "And the work of righteousness shall be peace and the effect of righteousness, quietness and assurance forever." Isaiah 32:17.

Lord, "Be it done unto us according as Thou hast said." This is to be our prayer for every commandment the Lord speaks. And prayer is the key in the hand of faith that opens the gates of righteousness making available to us all the unsearchable riches of Christ! All the resources of Heaven are at our disposal so that the Lord may finish the work and cut it short in righteousness.
"I hope in Thy Word." "I praise Thy Word." Ps.119:74,81,114,49; 56:4,10.

"The entrance of Thy Word giveth light." Ps.119:130. "Lord, remember the Word upon which Thou hast caused me to hope." Ps.119:49. "I will never forget Your commandments, for with them You have given me life." Ps.119:93. The light of Your life, the light of Your countenance, the light of Your glory, the Holy Spirit, the Highest Influence in the universe!


[This message has been edited by L.Picard (edited 05-09-2001).]

L.Picard

Richard Myers

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Present truth
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2001, 09:42:00 PM »
Sister Claudia,  :). We are happy that you can hear the "still, small voice" that reveals God's love and His ways. God's ways are not man's and it is such a blessing to have one see that be humble is to be "great" in the eyes of God and in the eyes of His people.

Thank you for your sweet Spirit.

In His love and grace,     Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

M.A. Crawford

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« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2001, 09:16:00 AM »
Bro. Battler, I believe you are right on target in your comments dated 05-09-2001 at 07:17 AM, and I appreciate the statements that are contained therein.

In regard to Bro. Elliott's post concerning the Millerites' teachings of the 2300 days and present truth, I believe he has a valid point as to whether or not we should consider their advancement of the idea that Jesus would return at the end of the 2300 days as present truth even then because their theories on the subject proved to be untrue. It may have been present truth TO THEM during the time it was proposed, but it later proved to be untrue.

Let me also add that Sis. Claudia has some excellent Ellen G. White quotations on the Laodicean church and the last days in her post dated 05-09-2001 at 09:10 AM which I enjoyed reading very much. My thanks go to her for the insightful offerings on the topic.

M.A.

M.A.

jherbertthompson

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« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2001, 11:20:00 AM »
Hi all!  I am not sure or not whether or not to post on this subject...Perhaps parinoid, I feel as though I may have been 'pinged' from at least one other subject...Oh well!

First of all, I would like to say that I am truely impressed at the level of courtesy and considerateness of those posting on the Remnant Forum...Thank you!  If for any reason someone should feel that I simply 'step on toes', my true hope is that they will put on their shoes, and lets walk through the issue! As we all 'seek to know and understand' the truth about God in present truth.  I know I need to set behind myself selfish desire for acknowledgement; the 'desire' to be 'right'; and perhaps worst of all, the 'argumentative spirit', in which I some times take things personally and a little to far...

With all that said:  PRESENT TRUTH.  It is impossible for one to, with any measure of acuity, address this or any other subject not knowing the back-ground of the conversation(s) prior to it...So, for a lack of landmarks, so-to-speak, I will begin with the [original question(s)].


Our brother has asked some good questions regarding "present truth":

"What exactly is "present truth?" I have heard this phrase a number of times, but I have also heard a number of differing opinions on what present truth is.

Is present truth a long list of all the sins and the wrongs in the church, or of it’s leaders?  Is it perhaps, a stinging reminder of the coming time of trouble?  Is the phrase "present truth" even in the Bible? Where did the term first come from? How should we use it today? Does present truth have anything to do with Jesus? Is the coming of Christ, a part of present truth? Would the righteousness of Christ be a part of present truth? How about the righteousness of Christ imparted to the helpless human agent? Is this a part of present truth in any way?"

Re:  What is 'present truth'?


i. (IMO) Present truth is different for every person on this planet.  There is only one definitions which seems to fall in the catagory of 'what it is not':  It is not 'denominational'; nor has it ever, from the beginning of time been 'static'.

It is however: [1] something which has a definite relationship to; and, growth from the age in which you either lived, live, or will live; [2] it would be 'progressive', unilaterally as-well-as personally; [3] it would need also to be 'shared' in order to 'receive'; and, [4] (IMO) these are only a few of the many definitions which we might attach to it.

ii.  Is present truth a long list of 'sins' which are commited by 'persons', 'leaders', or the 'church at large'?

(IMO) The answer to this question is a most 'emphatic' NO!  Yet, can it, or does it inclued any one or all of the above?  [The answer to this will be taken by 'secret ballot'...answer to come soon!] :o

iii.  Is it a constant reminder of 'things yet to come'; a 'revelation' of future
events?  Is it in the Bible?  Where was the 'term' first 'coined'?  (IMO) These will most likely be answered while answering the remainder of the questions asked.

Neither time nor space really permits the expansion of any of these ideas today.  Once again I must needs go and pick-up my son from school...

iv.  How should we use it today?  (IMO) we, as already mentioned above, should be aware of it in the 'presence of the spirit'; and, in a most intimate way...The actual concept of present truth(s) are mind-boggling to me. One of my first thoughts would be:  Do we use present truth, or does present truth use us in regard to our own personal relationship with our Creator God?

v.  Does present truth have anything to do with Jesus Christ; with the plan of salvation; with His soon return; and perhaps ultimately in relation to all of the above: Does present truth have any thing to do with the 'Righteousness of Christ'?

I 'think' that covers the issues...Please add or subtract any you may see [or don't see]...
I am planning to return to the library later; and will attempt to create a more expansive view on each of the subject(s).

For now, there are no 'passenger seats' in our car [ark] going to heaven...  


Richard Myers

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« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2001, 12:22:00 PM »
The following thought may help some to get a better understanding of what God views to be "present truth".

"Opposition is the lot of all whom God employs to present truths specially applicable to their time. There was a present truth in the days of Luther,--a truth at that time of special importance; there is a present truth for the church today. He who does all things according to the counsel of His will has been pleased to place men under various circumstances and to enjoin upon them duties peculiar to the times in which they live and the conditions under which they are placed. If they would prize the light given them, broader views of truth would be opened before them. But truth is no more desired by the majority today than it was by the papists who opposed Luther. There is the same disposition to accept the theories and traditions of men instead of the word of God as in former ages. Those who present the truth for this time should not expect to be received with greater favor than were earlier reformers. The great controversy between truth and error, between Christ and Satan, is to increase in intensity to the close of this world's history."

In very precise words, a truth of special importance at the present time. This is not complicated or deep, but rather very simple. An example of "present truth" is the Laodicean message, the whole message. Another "present truth" message would be Revelation 14:6-12. Another "present truth" message is the relationship between disease in animals and man.

In His love and grace,  Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Harry Elliott

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« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2001, 09:03:00 PM »
Hi M.A.--

Thanks for responding to my question probing the basic meaning of Present Truth.

“It may have been present truth TO THEM [the Millerites] during the time it was proposed, but it later proved to be untrue.”  

That makes perfect sense to me, but what if God sent them the erroneous message, and inspired them to preach it?  Would that make it Present Truth?

--Harry


M.A. Crawford

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« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2001, 07:32:00 AM »
"...what if God sent them the erroneous message, and inspired them to preach it? Would that make it Present Truth?"

I don't believe that God sends to anyone an erroneous message. God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33). I believe the early pioneers were in error in their prediction of Christ's return to the earth for two main reasons:

1. The early church leaders had erroneously adopted the prevailing assumption of the mainline Protestant churches of their day that the earth was the sanctuary that was to be cleansed mentioned in Daniel 8:14.

2. In their predicting the day of Christ's return, the church founders either ignored or were not aware of the Bible statement on Christ's return to this earth which reads: "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, BUT MY FATHER ONLY" (Matt. 24:36, emphasis mine).

These were SELF-INFLICTED ERRORS the pioneers brought upon themselves, and not something that came from God.

M.A.  

M.A.

Richard Myers

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« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2001, 08:08:00 PM »
Amen, Brother Crawford.  Present truth does not include an "untruth".  God allowed them to believe an untruth. He did not inspire them with an untruth. They were familiar with the Bible statement that the hour and day is unknown. They had Bible truth that was leading them forward. They knew that the truth of the date was Biblical. They had the Holy Spirit leading them step by step.

God allows us to believe some things that are not the truth. In the case of the 1844 date, the error was used for God's honor and glory. A people came forth from the churches that would establish modern Israel.

The same powerful truths that they saw in 1844, we too see. It is a great blessing to have an anchor that holds us steady. In addition to what they had in 1844, we now have the correct understanding of what was to be cleansed. (this subject includes the  topics The Hebrew Sanctuary, The Third Angel's Message, 1844)

Present truth is "truth".

In His love and grace,     Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

DavidTBattler

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Present truth
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2001, 06:21:00 AM »
Hello All

One of several major points I have been trying to promote in this thread is the fact that Present Truth, does not just consist of one subject matter only.

I am glad to see this coming out in the study.   :)

------------------
"Know the grace of God in Truth."  (Col.1:6).

Your brother in Christ

David T. Battler


Harry Elliott

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« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2001, 07:59:00 AM »
Hi M.A.--

“I don't believe that God sends to anyone an erroneous message. God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33).”

Excellent text.  Surely God would not send an error as a test.  (People who rejected the error would fail, and those who accepted the error would pass.)

Yet that sounds a lot like the position that Ellen White took in the early decades.

“I saw that God was in the proclamation of time in 1843.  It was designed to arouse the people, and bring them to a testing point where they should decide....The preaching of a definite time called forth great opposition from all classes...no man knoweth the day and the hour, was heard form the hypocritical minister and the bold scoffer.  Neither would be instructed and corrected...

“Many shepherds of the flock, who professed to love Jesus, said they had no opposition to the preaching of Christ’s coming; but they objected to the definite time...these shepherds stepped between the truth and the people...

“God designed that his people should meet with a disapointment....The hand of the Lord was removed from the figures, and the mistake was explained.”  (The Great Controversy, pp 133-138, 1858 Edition)

I don’t think God wants us to duck real issues. Consider:

“I saw that God was in the proclamation of time in 1843.”  “The preaching of a definite time...”  “they objected to the definite time...”  

**The time proclaimed was that of Jesus’ return, not merely the end of the 2300 days.  When Miller discovered this subject, scores of writers were speculating that the ends of the 2300 days and/or the 1260 days were about to arrive.  What Miller added was the definite time of the second advent.**

“It was designed...”  

**Designed by whom? By God, of course.**

“The hand of the Lord was removed from the figures...”

**If God removed His hand from the errors, that means He had put it there.**

It appears that Mrs. White’s position on this softened considerably in her later writings.  Ironically, her eventual position-- and Miller’s--on the time of Jesus’ return became essentially the position that had been held by Miller’s critics before 1843.  Namely: no one knows the definite time, but we hope it’s soon.

Is that present truth now, but not then?

This subject is not for the faint of heart.  :)

--Harry



Richard Myers

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« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2001, 02:32:00 PM »
Brother Harry, what was the "present truth" in 1844? We need to take great care in what we say. God does indeed test His people and He allows much to happen that He does not cause. He turns all to good for those who love and obey Him.

Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

DavidTBattler

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« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2001, 11:19:00 PM »
Hello Harry

How can you prove that the miscalculation of Scripture, by William Miller, was in reality, "specially designed" by God?

------------------
"Know the grace of God in Truth."  (Col.1:6).

Your brother in Christ

David T. Battler


Harry Elliott

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« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2001, 09:14:00 AM »
Hi David--

"How can you prove that the miscalculation of Scripture, by William Miller, was in reality, "specially designed" by God?"

I can't prove it.  

I was offering EGW's words as evidence that at that juncture SHE believed that the miscalculations were part of God’s design.

“God designed that his people should meet with a disapointment.”


And: I appologize for a critically important typo in my first extract from GC.  It should have been:

“I saw that God was in the proclamation of THE time in 1843.”  (p. 133)

“The most devoted gladly received the message. They knew it was from  God....” (p. 136)

Wasn’t she saying that God was behind the message that Jesus would return in 1843 (the “definite time”), for the purpose of attracting attention and testing His people?  In her mind, the correctness or erroneousness of the message was not important, only that it was from God.

In fact, it just now dawned on me: SHE WAS DECLARING THAT THE MESSAGE THAT JESUS WOULD COME IN 1843 WAS **THE FIRST ANGEL’S MESSAGE**!

Pardon the shouting, but I think that’s extremely important.  :)

--Harry


Claudia Marie

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« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2001, 10:43:00 AM »
Harry,

It is kind of obvious (at least to me it is) that the people did not want to hear that Jesus was coming soon. Sister White talked a lot about that. Thats what she meant when she said they didnt want to hear about a definite time.

It seems to me as if you are trying to undermine our belief in the Spirit of Prophecy.

Most Adventists know that there is no definite time given for the coming of Christ. But the word was "soon"... thats what they didnt like hearing... it was the time of Judgment.

and yes, the Pioneers had it wrong, thinking it was a definite time for the coming of Christ. God wished to draw their attention to the fact that Jesus was coming soon and they had to prepare for that.

it seems like you are just trying to confuse people. Sorry, but you sound just like those people on the liberal forum who were always trying to turn people away from our Adventist beliefs, by twisting the facts.

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[This message has been edited by Claudia Marie (edited 05-17-2001).]

Claudia