Whatever Happened to Willow Creek?

[Wendy]

I would say that our evangalism efforts should focus on anyone in need of salvation.

Just my $.02.  

------------------
Maranatha!:)

[Dugald T Lewis MD]

Dear Kelly,

Many today seek church after church to satisfy their human longings. This may indicate that they have not yet found Jesus in their lives. Let us pray for them that they will open up their hearts to Jesus rather than to some charismatic leader.

Sincerley
Dugald

[Felix Florimon, MD]

Kelly:

The Bible states whom, according to our Lord Jesus, we should target for evangelism:  “Then Jesus came to them and said… ‘So go and make followers of all people in the world. Baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Teach them to obey everything that I have taught you’…” (Mat 28:18, 19 & 20 NCV).

FF

[M.A. Crawford]

As I have stated before, the work of saving souls is the Lord's and not man's. We serve only as human instruments through whom He can work when we place ourselves in the proper spiritual posture to be used by the Holy Spirit. As a result, I do not believe that evangelism should be something that is relegated to being a "church thing." I am convinced that is part of the problem with the concept of it today. Committees and groups have there place, but I believe that for evangelism to be truly effective, it must be an INDIVIDUAL THING where people make themselves a "committee of one" and evangelize EVERY DAY and not just during some special week or time.

I believe true evangelism involves having a genuine burden for souls without regard for whether an individual is a believer or non-believer. I believe true evangelism involves sharing the love of God with whomever we come in contact. And I am convinced we do this--not so much by way of Bible studies(Bible studies have their place)--but, by DEMONSTRATING genuine love for others. People know when it is real because TRUE LOVE will manifest itself by way of showing care and concern, and by doing for others. And it is this love--the love of Christ that can be seen in the life--that wins souls unto Him, and not "programs" and the efforts of man.

M.A.

[Elder John Thurber]

You cannot believe in the SOP and accept the teachings and program styles of WC.

There is a quotation in the Great Controversy, p. 509 that brings out a very good point and reads, "Conformity to worldly customs converts the church to the world; it never converts the world to Christ.  Familiarity with sin will  inevitably cause it to appear less repulsive..."  

The worship service is not Sunday morning, it is on Thursday evening. or at least that is what I am told from some of our preachers that have attended. Sunday morning is dedicated to bringing Theatrical performances and hard rock music that fits the taste of the world. It is used to stimulate an interest of the world to the church. Slowly the bring them to other things yet are not weaned from the world, but become a part of the social fellowship that is strong to hold them.

That is not to say that they are not successful in what they have set out to do. I believe it was A.B.C. network that years ago did a special on them and pointed out the sham in there approach. Their methods are powerful and very attractive to the world. Many of our Seminary Students have gone to study this method of evangelism, and have brought their learning into our church. many of our churches have suffered from the exposure of W.C.  I believe the Seminary at least in the past has encouraged the students to go there and receive credit for attending.

I am personally aquatinted with a young worker who I voted for to be ordained many years ago. He attended W.C. several times, and felt that they had right way of evangelism. His pattern since has been to seek council from a large number of theologians of different faiths by reading their books, to the point of almost excluding the SOP. He has left the church, started a new church, taking several hundred with him. I think he told me he is down to about four doctrines he still holds. He is one of the most brilliant young men I know, he is loving and talented, and skillful in preaching. He has a dream of building a large congregation using many of the ideas from W.C.
He has the dream of showing us that we are to old fashion and legalistic to grow.

I don't believe that our faith will ever be popular to the world, for we are not of the world, but of Christ and his kingdom. The time of the second coming of God's Spirit will bring a great harvest, yet we must hold fast to the foundations of our faith, Many will leave, many will come in to take their place. Lets pray for our workers that God will keep them firm to this time before the end.

Friend John      

[Richard Myers]

Elder Thurber, we need more Seventh-day Adventist ministers to speak up as you have just done. For me to say what you just did is one thing, for an ordained Seventh-day Adventist minister to say it is quite another.

There is a Spirit that contrains men to speak up in a crisis. As we study the life of Jesus we have a perfect example of how we should act. If ever there was a need for a Jeremiah, or an Ezekiel, or an Isaiah, it is today when Jesus wants to come and His church has failed to prepare the way. Your ways have been kind and loving. None can find fault in the manner that you have called for reform. Please take heart that there are thousands upon thousands of faithful Seventh-day Adventists that will be greatly blessed as they read your words. Too many have remained silent too long and the situation continues to get worse. Today is the day of salvation and today God calls for the message of His love and His righteousness to go forth to purify His people.

Thank you for being faithful to that "still, small voice".

In His love and grace,    Richard

[M.A. Crawford]

Let me make it perfectly clear that I am neither condoning nor condemning any of the programs or methods employed by the Willow Creek Community Church because I know very litle about either. I am thoroughly convinced that judging and condemning are prerogatives that belong only to God. I also understand perfectly about taking a stand for truth and for that which is right, and that much of what goes on at WC might be contrary to Adventist traditions and possibly some Biblical injunctions, but I hope that, in the process, we who profess to be Christians do not engage in "spiritual paranoia" or witch hunts because we all live in "glass houses" and, therefore, are not in any position to throw stones.

M.A.

[Elder John Thurber]

Dear Mac, I am sorry if I came across throwing stones. If I offended you I apologize. Yet I believe that When people confuse W.C. as maybe being Adventist we need to correct that misconception. I am sure that the leaders are sincere and brilliant. I am not even going to condemn them. It's not my place.
Are you sympathetic with there methods? Or are wanting thoughts from others as to their knowledge of the program.
I would be interested in anyone who can give credence to this method in either the Bible or SOP, maybe I am missing something.
By their fruitsye shall know them. Does not God expect us to test the Spirits? What about their theology in many areas. Sabbath, and others. I have many non Adventist friends that are as committed to their church as we are, and feel they will be in the kingdom if they continue to follow truth as it is given by the Holy Spirit pray that God will lead us as we witness to them.
You cannot judge a music group or minister by the crowds he draws, but by what they sing or  say If they speak not according to the Word, It is because there is no truth in them. Do you think God expects us to test the spirits? This does not mean that many may accept W.C. as the best and most successful. Yet I must say that I believe SDA is God's last day message and church.

Friend John  

P.S. MAC i enjoy your post in any subject and have been blessed by them. May God continue to bless as you continue to speak to us the TRO familu.

[M.A. Crawford]

For those who need to know, and to try to put this matter to rest, I believe that Ellen G. White is God's last-day prophet for His Remnant Church. I also believe her writings serve as a guide to help us better understand the great prophetic utterances of Scripture we would not be able to understand otherwise. I believe, as she has so stated, that her works are a lesser light to lead us to the Greater Light--the Word of God. I have read many of her standard works and continue to receive spiritual sustenance from them.

Friend John, you did not come across as throwing stones. The statement was not directed toward you, or anyone in particular. Nor did you offend me in any way. Therefore an apology was not necessary. I just wanted to clear up any misunderstanding before others misconstrue my statements. As I stated in another post, whether we agree or disagree with Willow Creek--either philosophically or theologically--the bottom line is there are souls there and the very least we can do, as Christians, is pray and ask God to help them while Christ still intercedes for us in the Most Holy Place of the Heavenly Sanctuary.

M.A.

[M.A. Crawford]

CONDEMNATION NEVER, EVER WINS ANYONE TO CHRIST. But, if one is to be won, love will!

[M.A. Crawford]

Referring to another topic, a brother in another forum wrote" "The disciples of Christ, as Jews, had been educated to hate the Samaritans...." In reference to the attitude of many toward Willow Creek, the word "hate" may be too harsh of a term as it is used here, but I often wonder if there are not quite a few Seventh-day Adventists who look down upon these individuals with dispersion to the point that they do not want to have anything to do with them (just as the Jews are supposed to have felt toward the Samaritans). Where is the love of God in all of this?

The Hebrew nation was called to be the chosen people of God (just as SDA's in these last days are supposed to be). They had the Oracles of God (just as SDA's have been given by God the understanding of the unadulterated truths of the Bible). Yet, many Israelites characteristically looked down upon the "heathen" nations around them, when they were not raised up by God for that purpose. They were given the charge to evangelize them by way of the life lived and convert these nations to the True and the Living God. But instead of converting the nations, in many instances the nations converted them!

I do not believe the charge that has been given to modern-day spiritual Israel (the Seventh-day Adventist Church) is any different from that which was given to ancient Israel. I believe God is STILL in the soul-saving business and is desirous of all who profess to be His followers to look down upon those who are presently not of this fold with compassion and love, instead of with scorn and disdain.

M.A.

[Richard Myers]

But, Brother Crawford, are not the Seventh-day Adventists who bought into this "evangelical" ploy betraying Jesus and the church, some might ask.

I remember the situation with Saul before he became Paul. I wonder how the church looked at him?   Good question.

Richard

[M.A. Crawford]

"But, Brother Crawford, are not the Seventh-day Adventists who bought into this 'evangelical' ploy betraying Jesus and the church, some might ask."

My answer to these individuals would be: only Jesus--AND NOT US--is the Judge in this matter as to whether those who bought into the ploy in question are betraying the church and Him because only Jesus, and not us, knows the hearts and motives of those involved.  

Let me make it very clear that I do not condone or agree with UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES the activities of any organization or individual which deviate from Bible principles while at the same time claiming to be of Christ. So far as I'm concerned, it just simply does not compute. There are principles of Scripture that should be the overriding factor governing how ANY CHRISTIAN CHURCH--Adventist or otherwise--and its doctrines should be so established. Any church activities to be effective--whether baptism, communion, or any other--that are designed to lead one to Christ and salvation, and are supposed to be according to the the Will of God, must be TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY based upon the Word of God, and It alone. Any deviation in the slightest from what is written in Scripture places one in the dangerous position of practicing error, which has absolutely no redeeming value whatsoever.

M.A.

[Richard Myers]

Amen!  It is sometimes difficult for us to get things in the right perspective.  We are to love the sinner and hate the sin. We are to look for ways to lead the erring to Christ and at the same time attempt to correct the error, IF it is possible in the course of events. It is an important subject to study that we might be channels for Jesus to work through to save the lost.

Why do so many from God's church attend what must be a Babylonian church? I don't know, just trying to better understand the situation. Why do Seventh-day Adventist ministers study a Babylonian church instead of reading the counsels that God has given? I am not sure, but I have some ideas.

Since there is so much concern over Willow Creek, let us hear from those that have been there or have first hand information as to what is going on.

Richard

[adventbeliever]

"For My people are foolish; they have not known Me. They are silly children, And they have no understanding. They are wise to do evil, But to do good they have no knowledge." Jer.4:22. "The more they increase the more they sin against Me." !!!

[This message has been edited by adventbeliever (edited 02-20-2001).]

[Joan Rügemer]

(Following is something that SamBacchiocchi reported upon a while back in one of his newsletters)

WILLOW CREEK BAPTIZES BY SPRINKLING

Few days ago my daughter Loretta went with a visiting friend to visit the WILLOW CREEK COMMUNITY CHURCH, which one of the largest churches, located in a suburb of Chicago. Both of them were surprised  to see 200 persons baptized by sprinkling few drops of water over their heads. Later, during the Lord's Supper, people were offered slices of normal, fermented bread, instead of unleavened bread.

The explanation that was given is that it is more convenient to sprinkle and to offer regular bread, than to immerse people in a baptistery and to produce unleavened bread. Nobody will dispute the accuracy of their reasoning. The problem is that their reasoning betrays their philosophy which is to make Christianity a religion of convenience.

I am reporting this incident because several Adventist pastors have become so enamored with the successful WC church growth strategy, that they have resented my past negative remarks about WC. For them WC has become the role model of church growth for Adventist to follow.

Eventually I plan to post an in-depth analysis of WC after examining their publications and attending their programs.I feel that this investigation is urgently needed to evaluate the biblical basis of their church growth strategy, which is being adopted by an increasing number of Adventist pastors. Undoubtedly there are positive elements in the WC church growth strategy, but we must be sure to reject what would weaken our Adventist identity and mission.

An SDA pastor who attended the WC seminars, defended on SDANET the baptism by sprinkling done in December on the ground that the same people can be rebaptized by immersion in June in the lake on the premises of the church.when the weather. He wrote: "the New Testament model for people that accept Christ is to get baptized right away. And I'd love to see our believers do the same to boldly, courageously step forward to be baptized as soon as possible after they have crossed the line of faith."

It amazes me to what extent some people will go to justify what WC does, even if their practice is a blatant violation of a biblical directive. With all the million of dollars WC has spent to build their auditorium, why have they not planned for a suitable baptistery? Why do people have to wait until June to be baptized or rebaptized by immersion? If WC exists to lead people toChrist by accepting Him through baptism, then a convenient baptistery should have been a priority in the design of their sanctuary. After all the lay out of the sanctuary reveal the theology of the worshippers.

The communion table, the pulpit, and the baptistery are three major components of a biblically oriented church, since they represent respectively the Lord's Supper, the preaching of the Word, and baptism-three important elements of our Christian worship.

It is disheartening for me to see how some people are so captivated by the numerical growth of Willow Creek, that they are willing to justify their unbiblical practices. My appeal to everyone is simple: Be like the Bereans by "examining the scriptures daily to see if the things were so" (Acts 17:11).

Dr.S.Bacchiocchi

[Dugald T Lewis MD]

Dear M.A,

In continuation of this topic, I learnt tonight from a seminary student at Andrews University that one of their courses recommends visiting Willow Creek to learn innovative evangelism.

This is like going to to a slaughter house to learn about healthy meats when we know that we should be vegetarians.

Sincerely
Dugald  

[M.A. Crawford]

Permit me to comment on a point that has been on my mind for quite some time.

I believe there is a very serious work of redemption that needs to be done at the Willow Creek Community Church because THERE ARE SOULS THERE, and God is in the soul-saving business. Therefore, to be about the business of God is to be about the business of the salvation of souls. As a result, it is very difficult for me to understand how any of us can say we are doing God's Work if we are not ACTIVELY engaged in some aspect of that work. And if we are not actively engaged in that work, can we say in truth that we are living up to the High Calling that is in Jesus Christ?

Here in these last days, I have found that one-on-one evangelism is an effective way to GET THE WORD OUT to men and women that it is impossible to be saved unless they have established a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with Jesus Christ that is in accordance with the Word of God. This is not to cast dispersion on tent efforts, Revelation Seminars, and other methods of effective evangelism. What I am saying is if we want to MAXIMIZE the participation of the laity in our church evangelistic efforts, I have discovered that having one person (or family) find another person or family to work with--in studying the Amazing Facts, for example--can be an effective method to involve others in a church effort by giving them an opportunity to ACTIVELY PARTICIPATE in it.

There are some who feel they cannot successfully give Bible Studies. I believe that attitude is more in one's mind than it is a reality. I believe we can do just about anything we want to do IF we want to do it badly enough. If we fervently pray to the Lord about it, and then very carefully and completely go over, one at a time, the particular study guides to be presented by looking up ALL the Bible texts contained therein, I don't see how almost anyone could miss out on being an effective presenter of the material in question.

Where there is the problem of the fear of failure, someone has said: "We have nothing to fear but fear itself." Is God going to let His faithful children fail in that which is His work to begin with? I think not. God will most assuredly be with us if we would BOLDLY AND COURAGEOUSLY go forward in His name, and leave the results up to Him.

I believe that someone who reads this knows someone who is a member at Willow Creek and needs to make contact with that individual and introduce him/her to salvation through Jesus Christ via the Amazing Facts or other study guides.  Ministers and evangelists have a part to play in it, but I believe that it will be laymen--ordinary church members ON FIRE FOR GOD--who will ultimately finish the work of God and help usher in His soon-coming Kingdom.

M.A.      

[DavidTBattler]

Hello MA

I just have time for a loud Amen to your last post.  Very well said.  May I have your permission to copy that post into my word processor for use in promoting one on one lay evangelism in my realm?

It is really unfortunate that some of our people get off on the tracks of poor examples to follow; however; with a positive emphasis on the SOLUTION to the problems, such as you have posted here; the Scripture will be able to do that which it says in Philipians 1:18: "...In every way...weather in pretense, or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice; YES AND WILL REJOICE!"  

------------------
"Know the grace of God in Truth."  (Col.1:6).

Your brother in Christ

David T. Battler

[M.A. Crawford]

You most certainly, Bro. Battler, have my permission to copy the post in question and any other post I have written that will assist in "getting the Word out." As a matter of fact, here is another which you may also include.

My experiences with one-on-one evangelism have been quite fruitful over the years. The Lord has blessed my wife and me to sow the seeds of Bible truth with quite a few individuals, of whom the Holy Spirit has brought into the church. Where a church evangelistic effort is concerned, the Seeds of Life need to be sown a few months in advance of the effort by way of an easy to understand and comprehensive set of Bible study guides such as Amazing Facts. The individual or family needs to be contacted in person (and not over the phone) at least once a week, at which time the particular lesson needs to be covered in its entirety and each Bible text confirmed by actually looking it up and reading it with the individual(s). The time that is spent in the home on a lesson needs to be no more than 45 minutes (unless additional time is initiated by the host with questions). Less if possible. This means that idle chatter should be eliminated and the business at hand pursued after a friendly greeting and opening conversation of about 2 or 3 minutes. Always begin a Bible study with a brief word of prayer.

Some are concerned with being asked questions during a particular study session that do not pertain to the particular lesson. There are two ways one can approach this: (1) If it is a topic that is forthcoming, the host can be told in a kind and gentle manner that you will get to that topic in X number of days, or  a little later on in the study; or (2) if one insists, tell the individual that you will find the answers and discuss them with him/her upon your return. If at all possible, and there is no danger that the person(s) will lose interest, the former approach is preferred over the latter.

After careful study and fervent prayer, move out on faith. Don't be afraid. We are soldiers of the Cross and of a MIGHTY GOD. The Holy Spirit will be with us. Remember, "we have nothing to fear, but fear itself."

Have a safe and joyous holiday.

M.A.