Author Topic: Justification by Faith  (Read 92284 times)

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jherbertthompson

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #180 on: February 01, 2002, 06:21:00 PM »
Brother Crawford. I must admit that most of what you are saying I do believe...I think we differ in several points...and, we are saying very nearly the same thing in others from slightly different view-points...Your's a much unquestionably more matured Christian view-point than my own...

I would like to leave this weeks postings with two quotations I found tonight while going back over the lesson for this week. The first as follows:

This Day with God, page 302, paragraph 4
Chapter Title: How to Face Bereavement:

John White said, "Ellen, I am deeply sorry to see you so feeble. A trying ordeal is before you in the funeral services of the morrow. God help you, my dear sister, God help you on this occasion." "Said I, Brother John, you do not know me. The more trying the situation, the more fortitude I possess. I shall give way to no outbursts of grief, if my heart breaks. I serve God, not impulsively, but intelligently. I have a Saviour who will be to me a very present help in time of trouble. I am a Christian. I know in whom I have believed. He expects from me implicit unwavering submission. Undue grief is displeasing to God. I take up my appointed cross and will follow the Lord fully. I will not give myself to abandonment of grief. I will not yield to a morbid and melancholy state of feeling. I will not complain or murmur at the providence of God. Jesus is my Saviour. He lives. He will never leave me nor forsake me."

>>What a statement about the God we serve! To know Him closer than a brother is my continuous prayer...The second is this:

Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, January 21, 1909, paragraph 21
Article Title: Lessons from Christ's Labors

"Study how you can speak the truth to those with whom you are brought in contact. Take hold of God by living faith. Do your duty simple day by day, and you will constantly advance until you are qualified to hold a position of trust in the work. We need to carry pure religion into our lives. Let us show an interest in the sick. Christ gave his life for these souls. It is our privilege to bring them to him and teach them how to take hold of his divine nature. Then the afflictions with which Satan has beset them, will be overcome."

Ya'll have a blesses and Godly Sabbath.

Your brother in Christ Jesus.


Richard Myers

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #181 on: February 01, 2002, 09:54:00 PM »
Amen Brother Crawford.  Brother Jim, thanks for the beautiful statements!

Regarding the thief; the thief was converted and as such obeyed all that he knew to do. He had time to be tempted as he hung on the cross. I imagine his temptations were greater than many today. Seems to me that in the middle of great apostasy and defection there were few who stood by our Saviour believing Him to be the Saviour. I can think of only one who in the midst of such a scene refused to fall as did everyone else. Give me one such as the thief today and I will be blessed!  Baby Christians walk in all the light they have and their motives are pure, holy, and perfect. Their character will not be changed at the second coming of Jesus. It was perfected before they went into the grave.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Richard Myers

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #182 on: January 18, 2003, 01:47:00 PM »
There is on this earth a people called to give the third angel's message of Revelation 14. In order to give this message it must be understood and lived. The third angel's message in verity is "justification by faith."

Let us understand this message.

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Sister Marie

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #183 on: April 21, 2004, 06:12:00 PM »
To give the message we must not only know what Faith is, what relationship is, but we need to have it.

Christian Faith

"Faith" is a word we use to describe a relationship with God, as with a person well known. The better we know Him, the better the relationship may be. Faith implies an attitude toward God of love, trust, and ddp admiration. It means having enough confidence in God, based upon the more than adequate evidence revealed, to be willing to believe what ever He says, to accept whatever He offers, and to do whatever He wishes--without reservation--for the rest of eternity.
Anyone who has such faith is perfectly safe to save. With this requirement fulfilled, we will see that "obedience" is a natural way to go..... understanding that faith without works..is dead!

James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
(Whole Chapter: James 2 In context: James 2:17-19)

James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
(Whole Chapter: James 2 In context: James 2:19-21)

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
(Whole Chapter: James 2 In context: James 2:25-27)

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With Christian Love,
Sister Marie

With Christian Love,
Marie

Bev

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #184 on: April 22, 2004, 12:49:00 AM »
What profound messages in this page of posts. Thank you all for the encouragement and understanding shared here. For long years justification rightousness and all these other fancy terms have just bondaged me. Why cant we say these things simply so simple folk can understand? It is not like we don't have the simple way. If we are going to give any message to people it has to be to their understanding of it. Even the intellectual understands simple things.

The gospel, the truth about God, gets lost in all this miasma or correct theological terminology, so high it seems unatainable. Justification just means set right, set at peace, not condemned, forgiven. If we use these simple words, all can relate to it. Faith is the the trusting relationship with God as to a friend well known, just as was quoted above. Why don't we just say so. For when you read Roms 5:1 with these words instead you get a powerful statement jumping at you. At least I did.

"Therefore being set right (justified), that is, not condemned, forgiven set at peace; by a trusting relationship (faith)we continue to have freedom from anxiety (peace),at-one-ment; with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Roms 5:1 (Bev's version  ;)).

This text, flowing straight from the discouse about a faith like Abraham, went on to show, that as a result of this trusting relationship that Abraham had and we are to have, we are naturally at peace with God. We are no longer afraid of him but friends with him, because of Jesus who came to show us the true picture of God. Therefore we, having seen that God is not who we thought he was,condemning arbitraty exacting and dictatorial,not to mention untrustworthy, but is more gracious than we have been led to believe, we are in harmony, at-one-ment with him, and continue living in this freedom. This is good news, this is wonderful news. Who would not want to know this and have this assurance? Who would not want to see this kind of God, this kind of truth. Presented right it is disarming humbling and appealing. But when we say justification sanctification, righteousness by faith and on and on, sure we sound intellectual. But not understood.

The message does not get to the soul. It tries to reach the intellect and stays there. We need to get to hearts. For all the knowledge we have, we have not mastered that art. The 3 angels messengers do a heart work. The Elijah message says it too, teh message is to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children etc. It does not turn the mind of the fathers, but the heart, where  the issues are, the emotional scars, the hurts the pains the dysfuntional being, the damaged being within us all. So who wants to go there? Leave that for the psychologists the counsellors. Lets just stay with the logical stuff the big words the clinical approach, after all the truth will set us free.  The word is powerful to change, the Holy Spirit is the one who does the heart work anyway, are all the things we say to avoid the heart work.

Whom shall I send is the cry, who will go and warn the people, who will tell them? That is the clarion call. Oh God help us all to say here am I send me. Help me especially.

bev


Bev

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #185 on: April 22, 2004, 01:45:00 AM »
Revelation 20:4 and 5 reads:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, AND JUDGMENT WAS GIVEN UNTO THEM...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years (Emphasis mine). But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished...."

These verses clearly indicate that the redeemed saints shall sit on thrones with Christ and go over the life's record of the living dead during this one thousand year period to determine THE DEGREE of punishment the wicked shall receive because the Bible tells us God shall reward every man ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS (Rev. 22:12).

Wow Wow wow wow!!!!!

Is this the picture of God we have? A God who has degrees of punishment for misdeeds done?  Then Satan's claims are indeed correct. We serve a God who will punish us when we don't obey him....

I am sorry for any who sees God this way, they must live a torturous life. The text quoted in Rev about Judgement, is so misunderstood and can lead to that wrong perception of God, I agree. However when you have the correct picture of God, as evidenced throughout the whole 66 books not just one text or book, that concept of God does not fit. So what might it really be saying?

I have come to appreciate in recent times that Jesus's picture of God is not appreciated or seen. However if we want to know how God treats wicked people, unrepentant sinners, we have the evidence on the cross. He simply but painfully weeping and heartbrokenly turns his back and gives them up to their choice to distrust him which is death. For that is all he did to Jesus who took our place. Jesus became sin who knew no sin, and God did not give him any degree of punishment, he simply had to forsake him as Jesus' cry out tells us.

I believe at the end of the thousand years, all God will do is remove his glory of protection that is presently keeping us all, (till we make our choice).  Then we will know what sin's wages are, eternal separation, no life at all but total none existence. It is a horrible agonizing death( as we saw in Jesus's experience) not known by any human yet but Christ knows it.

He appeals to all not to know it, that is why he came to show us what will happen. Since no one could really appreciate what it was before. Not even Satan. God did not kill his son. We all know that. So why do we think he will kill us? He simply gives us up and says, 'oh how can I give you up Oh Ephraim," while doing so.

The judgement are God's ways (Deut 32:4). The judgement that occurs during the thousand years is just simply all the evidence of God's ways,that these 6000 odd years or more, have revealed. It shows those who are now with God, why their loved ones were not there with them.Simply it was because they choose to distrust God in spite of all his ways revealed to them, in spite of all the opportunity given to them.  This satisfies them that truly God could not do anymore than he did and that he was just merciful and the evidence is 100% against the wicked, not God. This is an important time for those who are with Christ in the thousand years, so there is no shadow of doubt to them, of God's character of trustworthiness. So sin would not rise again.

If these poor folk were to be only looking to see what degress of punishment should be meted out to wrongdoers, isn't it likely that someday after they will perish the thought of doing what they chose, for fear the decision is made concerning them, like was made for their loved ones. What freedom is that? What kind of kingdom is that to live in? NO no my friends I am sorry that picture of God is not only not true but sure is destructive. For I don't want to serve or live with a God like that no way. IT is bad enough living here with an enemy like that.
bev


Richard Myers

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #186 on: October 11, 2004, 08:43:00 AM »
We have much to be thankful for, not the least of which is a knowledge of the plan of salvation. A reading through this topic will reveal the difficulty posed by false interpretations of the gospel and how it is that we are to be saved.

Justification which is the legal status of sinful man when he allows Christ to enter His heart fully, also known as the "new birth" or conversion is the result of trusting (faith) Christ.

There is a relationship between faith and obedience that many do not understand. It was possible for Adam, before the fall, to form a righteous character by obedience to God's law. But he failed to do this, and because of his sin our natures are fallen and we cannot make ourselves righteous. Since we are sinful, unholy, we cannot perfectly obey the holy law. We have no righteousness of our own with which to meet the claims of the law of God. But Christ has made a way of escape for us. He lived on earth amid trials and temptations such as we have to meet. He lived a sinless life. He died for us, and now He offers to take our sins and give us His righteousness. If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned.

More than this, Christ changes the heart. He abides in your heart by faith. You are to maintain this connection with Christ by faith and the continual surrender of your will to Him; and so long as you do this, He will work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure. So you may say, "The life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me." Galatians 2:20. So Jesus said to His disciples, "It is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you." Matthew 10:20. Then with Christ working in you, you will manifest the same spirit and do the same good works --works of righteousness, obedience.

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Cop

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #187 on: October 11, 2004, 08:49:00 PM »
 When God pardons the sinner, remits the punishment he deserves, and treats him as though he had not sinned, He receives him into divine favor, and justifies him through the merits of Christ's righteousness. The sinner can be justified only through faith in the atonement made through God's dear Son, who became a sacrifice for the sins of the guilty world. No one can be justified by any works of his own. He can be delivered from the guilt of sin, from the condemnation of the law, from the penalty of transgression, only by virtue of the suffering, death, and resurrection of Christ. Faith is the only condition upon which justification can be obtained, and faith includes not only belief but trust.

Many have a nominal faith in Christ, but they know nothing of that vital dependence upon Him which appropriates the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour. Of this nominal faith James says: "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? (James 2:19, 20). Many concede that Jesus Christ is the Saviour of the world, but at the same time they hold themselves away from Him, and fail to repent of their sins, fail to accept of Jesus as their personal Saviour. Their faith is simply the assent of the mind and judgment to the truth; but the truth is not brought into the heart, that it might sanctify the soul and transform the character. "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified" (Rom. 8:29, 30). Calling and justification are not one and the same thing. Calling is the drawing of the sinner to Christ, and it is a work wrought by the Holy Spirit upon the heart, convicting of sin, and inviting to repentance. {1SM 389}

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Psalm 11:3

If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?


Richard Myers

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #188 on: October 20, 2004, 08:05:00 AM »
Amen, Cop!

It is good to be on the same page with others in the faith. It is so very sad that there is so much error and confusion on this most basic and important topic.

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Richard Myers

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #189 on: February 09, 2005, 09:16:00 AM »
The popular teaching says "just believe" and you are saved. Some teach forever saved and others teach you are saved until you are seen to be continually sinning "big" sins like homosexuality and murder.

What does the term "believe" mean?  "Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth." Mark 9:23.

What does Jesus ask us to believe? He asks us to believe Him, to believe His Word. This is what it is to have faith, saving faith. We must believe that Jesus is who He says He is and that His promises apply to us personally. Faith and belief are synonamous.

In my devotions this morning I read about Jesus commanding the storm to cease as the disciples trembled in fear when their boat was about to sink. The disciples called out to Jesus, but there was no answer except the shrieking of the angry wind. Already their boat was sinking. A moment, and apparently they would be swallowed up by the hungry waters.

Here we can better understand what true faith or "belief" is. The disciples were in danger of dying and what does Jesus say to them? After commanding the waters and wind "Peace, be still" He then turns to the disciples and says sorrowfully, "Why are ye fearful? have ye not yet faith?" Mark 4:40.

Like grace, faith is more than a word. Those who trust in Christ with all they have and all they are, have what is needed for salvation. The "new birth" is a radical transformation of character. "If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." 2 Cor. 5:17.

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

JimB

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #190 on: August 29, 2007, 01:09:00 PM »
I have not had time to read all 13 pages of posts in this topic so please forgive me if my posts covers ground that has already been discussed. I didn't want to start another un-needed and topic this discussion looked pretty close so I'm posting here.

Just recently I have listened to a sermon that concerns me. Below in the quote box are my notes on the sermon. I would be interested in thoughts of my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.  

quote:
Using the story in John 8 about the woman caught in adultery the speaker askes the question if Jesus didn’t condemn her then the opposite must be true. He then asks the question what is the opposite of condemnation? That “opposite” is defined in Romans 5:18

Rom 5:18  Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

According to the speaker after reading Romans 5:18, justification is the opposite of condemnation. So if Jesus didn’t condemn He justified her. And justification is defined is define in Romans 4:6.

Rom 4:6  Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7  Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8  Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

When Jesus told the woman that He didn’t condemn her He was saying that He justified her and that her sins are covered and forgiven without her confession or repentance. Jesus gave her His holy history.  The speaker then goes on to say and this is a quote…

“So when God the Father looks down upon us He does not see our rebellion. He does not see our waywardness. He does not see our transgressions but He sees the life of His Son. He sees us as if it were opening the eyes of the blind. He sees us as if it were raising the dead to life. He sees us as if it were healing the lepers. He sees us as if it were claming the storm tossed sea. Every single, every single action of Jesus as recorded in the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are placed in the record books by your name.”

He then goes on to ask the question… how does God relate to the person who has yielded to temptation. He answers this by quoting Micah 7:8,9

Mic 7:8  Rejoice not against me, O mine enemy: when I fall, I shall arise; when I sit in darkness, the LORD shall be a light unto me.
Mic 7:9  I will bear the indignation of the LORD, because I have sinned against him, until he plead my cause, and execute judgment for me: he will bring me forth to the light, and I shall behold his righteousness.


If someone is justified are they not also sanctified and have salvation? How can one have justification without repentance?

[This message has been edited by Jim B (edited 08-29-2007).]

By communion with God in nature, the mind is uplifted, and the heart finds rest.  {DA 291.1}

Richard Myers

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #191 on: August 29, 2007, 07:44:00 PM »
Is it not a great blessing to have one's eyes opened to the simplicity of the gospel!  Sadly, this "gospel" is preached in many churches that call themselves Christian and even Protestant. It is the "evangelical" gospel which is not the gospel at all.  It attempts to turn the Words of Jesus into lies.  But, spiritual things are spiritually discerned.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

asygo

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #192 on: August 30, 2007, 06:40:00 PM »
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jim B:
How can one have justification without repentance?

It is true that Christ's life covers ours. But the remission of sins requires repentance. God's mercy is for those who confess and forsake sin (Proverbs 28:13).

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By God's grace,
Arnold M. Sy Go
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JimB

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #193 on: August 31, 2007, 06:00:00 AM »
So did the speaker mis-interpret the passage in John 8? Where did he take a turn in the wrong direction?
By communion with God in nature, the mind is uplifted, and the heart finds rest.  {DA 291.1}

Richard Myers

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #194 on: August 31, 2007, 08:23:00 AM »
Jesus did not come into the world to condemn the world, but to bring salvation. She did not need to be condemned by Jesus. She was already condemned. Jesus came to bring repentance. He came to bring grace which He offered her. It is a false teaching to say that because she was not condemned by Jesus, she was not condemned. The law condemns. Jesus saves.  

Romans 8:1 addresses this issue. "There is therefore no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus." This is the NIV version. It is the "evangelical gospel". But, the truth is seen in the KJV.  "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Sadly, too many accept such false teachings because they have never seen God nor known Him. Jesus promised the Comforter that would lead us into all truth.  

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Brian M

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #195 on: August 31, 2007, 07:58:00 PM »
Jim,

Here are a couple quotes I ran across as I was studying a week or two ago:

"The Pharisee and the publican represent two great classes into which those who come to worship God are divided. Their first two representatives are found in the first two children that were born into the world. Cain thought himself righteous, and he came to God with a thank offering only. He made no confession of sin, and acknowledged no need of mercy. But Abel came with the blood that pointed to the Lamb of God. He came as a sinner, confessing himself lost; his only hope was the unmerited love of God. The Lord had respect to his offering, but to Cain and his offering He had not respect. The sense of need, the recognition of our poverty and sin, is the very first condition of acceptance with God. "Blessed are the poor in spirit; for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Matt. 5:3."  {COL 152.1}

"The whole world was gathered in the embrace of Christ. He died on the cross to give the death stroke to Satan, and to take away the sin of every believing soul. He calls upon us to offer ourselves on the altar of service, a living, consuming sacrifice. We are to make an unreserved surrender to God of all that we have and are."  {ST, June 21, 1905 par. 3}

Brian

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asygo

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #196 on: August 31, 2007, 11:09:00 PM »
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jim B:
So did the speaker mis-interpret the passage in John 8? Where did he take a turn in the wrong direction?

The big mistake is the implication that repentance - sorrow for sin and turning away from it - is optional.

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By God's grace,
Arnold M. Sy Go
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By God's grace,
Arnold M. Sy Go
-end-

Richard Myers

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #197 on: December 24, 2007, 10:16:36 PM »
Just recently I have listened to a sermon that concerns me. Below in the quote box are my notes on the sermon. I would be interested in thoughts of my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. 

 Using the story in John 8 about the woman caught in adultery the speaker askes the question if Jesus didn't condemn her then the opposite must be true. He then asks the question what is the opposite of condemnation? .....According to the speaker after reading Romans 5:18, justification is the opposite of condemnation. So if Jesus didn't condemn He justified her.

This is a very often used tool in Satan's armory.  If Jesus did not condemn her, what would make us think she was not condemned? Jesus never said a lot that He could have. This is very poor logic and ought to be seen as such. Also, the idea that all are justified in their sins is an abomination that strikes at the heart of the gospel. Away with such teachings. Our people need to begin to study for themselves at the foot of the cross, or they shall be forever lost. Until one dies to self, there is no salvation. When self is alive, then we are dead in our sins and in need of a fresh revelation of our Lord.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Richard Myers

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #198 on: January 20, 2008, 09:41:04 PM »
There is a popular teaching that emphasizes that justification has come upon all men without their conversion. Many enjoy this thought because it releases them for the just claims of the law. They can be saved in their sin. But, for us who know better, how do we meet this error that all are justified?
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

JimB

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #199 on: January 21, 2008, 08:07:32 AM »
But, for us who know better, how do we meet this error that all are justified?

I don't have the texts handy (so if someone else has them please post them) but it has always been my understanding that repentance was needed for justification. Sister Sybil posted this in another topic just recently which I believe tells us how justification and repentance works.
Quote
As the penitent sinner, contrite before God, discerns Christ's atonement in his behalf and accepts this atonement as his only hope in this life and the future life, his sins are pardoned. This is justification by faith. Every believing soul is to conform his will entirely to God's will and keep in a state of repentance and contrition, exercising faith in the atoning merits of the Redeemer and advancing from strength to strength, from glory to glory. Pardon and justification are one and the same thing. Faith and Works, p. 103

There is verse in Romans that comes to mind also.
Quote
Rom 2:13  (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Luk 18:9  And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Luk 18:10  Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luk 18:11  The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12  I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luk 18:13  And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:14  I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

To me it is logical that if it is the doers of the Law that are justified that an unrepentant sinner could never be justified since it is only by the grace of God can someone be a true doer of the Law. And even a righteous man who sins looses justification.
By communion with God in nature, the mind is uplifted, and the heart finds rest.  {DA 291.1}