Author Topic: Justification by Faith  (Read 133288 times)

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Richard Myers

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #140 on: July 12, 2001, 12:35:00 PM »
Brother James, we have previously agreed on our difference and I have asked a question and also given you some information in regards to the Spirit of Prophecy. I know you have been away from home for awhile, but now if you could respond, I would appreciate it.

I asked "You can help our work here by sharing with us where you learn such things as a Seventh-day Adventist. We know the "evagelical" churches teach such, but where have you learned this “in Christ motif”? My thoughts before were the 1888 Study Committee, but we would all like to know who it is that has been teaching this "in Christ motif". There are a number of "teachers" that come close to this. Venden, Sequierra, Larson, Whielen, and many writing in the Review. We would appreciate your help in this matter so that all may rightly understand what is being taught and who it is that is teaching."

Brother James I quote you again in regards to the published writings of Ellen White. "That is why we must take what is good and not just accept everything of her is inspired. If she contradict the bible, we must not questions the bible because as she has said that her writings is just a lesser light compare to the bible and the bible only as the foundation of truth. But as the church keep publishing all her writings then we will see a dualism, and it is up to us to deal with it."

You have used this in response to statements of Ellen White on justification by faith. I have used the Bible to support my understanding on this doctrine and I don't see any variance in any of the writings of Ellen White that contadict the Bible, yet what you are saying disagrees with her writings from beginning to end. Throughout her published writings we have the encouragement the Jesus came into this world to give us perfection of character. She encouarges us under the inspiration of God that "in Christ" we shall have power to keep the law of God.

In His love and grace,     Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Gary K

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #141 on: July 12, 2001, 03:25:00 PM »
Richard,

I know where James S. gets his thoughts.  He has been studying with the disciple of Jack Sequira that went first by the handle of Yom, and now by the handle of Bob, on the VOAF.  James is basically quoting Yom word for word.  He is giving almost verbatim the arguments of Yom.  Yom has convinced him that SDA doctrine is of the devil, because it is pure legalism.

When James first started posting a year or so ago he didn't hold to these theories, he sure does now.


jherbertthompson

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #142 on: July 12, 2001, 05:02:00 PM »
Wow! Brethren... :o  Some how or other I have become lost in the maze of reply's and conjecture in the more recent posts on *justification by Faith*...Am I alone? Or are there other's who may be in the same boat as myself?  ???


>>>Brother Frenchmon.  Regarding you post of 06/19/2001.  You asked:  Brother Herbert...I like the sound of your last posting ...I have never seen or heard these words before:  "Sometimes, justification initiates the relationship in which righteousness becomes a
possibility.  It sounds good, but can you kindly flesh that idea out a bit more???  Please...help me to understand your thoughts?"

I will attempt to do so...Perhaps, the story of Abraham might be a good place to start.  Here is a man who, and I might add, was not only called out of his "home town" so-to-speak; but, was terribly wealthy also. He, perhaps even more so than Lot, "really had a stake in making such a large venture without a clue as to where, what, or how he was to be led...Yet, without any hesitation so far as I can read from this story, he does so with his entire house-hold...No questions asked.

We are well aware of the story from here.  His mistake in Egypt; the mess he and Sarah got themselves into regarding the son of "promise": i.e. taking for himself the maid of Sarah [Hagar - Ishmael], having children by her, etc.  Then, we see, in a sort of "final, perhaps *purging* act of conscience; giving for a sacrifice his only son Issiac; and, God's miricle of a "lamb provided for *sacrifice*"...Another time I would really like to zero in on this portion [the act of nearly slaying his son] of his [Abraham's] act on Mt. Morah...

The really important part of this is that following this; God Himself came to Abraham and "initiated a covenant" between Himself and Abraham...Then turn, if you will to the 15th chapter of Genesis, and verse 6.  [Speaking of Abraham now], "And he [Abraham] *believed* in the Lord; and He [the Lord] *counted it to him [Abraham]j for *righteousness*...

There are actually several more places that one may see an initiated covenant [or act of reconciliation - putting right] with an individual or nation where it is *counted unto them as "righteousness* before there was any *progress* in the direction of *keeping the law* so-to-speak...

I hope that this explination finds it's mark.

Brother Myers.  Perhaps we could discuss the differences of opinion in regard to Sister White's "growth", or "change in her theology" [off-form format please  :)]; has (IMO) been, to a large degree, part of the reason we have such a hard time today understanding the principles of "righteousness/justification by faith"...I will wait to hear from you, and will acknowledge you as soon as I can... :) I will be very interested in your experience and views on this matter, as you are my "elder brother"... :)

I am really interested in the direction this conversation has gone, or is going...However, I will stop for now as I do have another one or dozen things which need to be done tonight before I may go home  :)!

So, for now, signing-off as your brother in Christ...


Richard Myers

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #143 on: July 12, 2001, 08:40:00 PM »
Brother Gary, yes, it is what Yom believes and it does appear that our Brother James has shifted some in what he believes. At least he is verbalizing things that he did not a year ago. I think he believes in the Spirit of Prophecy and if we can show him Ellen White has been consistent in her theology, he will have a decision to make. I believe you, Brother James to be honest in your error and appreciate your kind attitude in posting here at TRO even though we differ with you. Let us continue to pray that Jesus will bring us into unity.

Brother Herbert, of course, let me know when.  :)

Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

M.A. Crawford

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #144 on: July 13, 2001, 07:34:00 AM »
Bro. James S., there is, what I will call, a "slight misunderstanding" in your theology concerning the law of God as it relates to salvation. But I am quite optimistic that understanding will eventually come, because I believe that the power of the Holy Spirit is able to awaken us IN AN INSTANT if we would but continue to honestly and sincerely study God's Word in order to do what It says.

Reading the theological writings of others has its place, but NOTHING substitutes for the CAREFUL AND PRAYERFUL study of the Word of God, followed by a careful and prayerful study of the writings of His Messenger: Ellen G. White on the subjects and topics in question. I believe if you will follow this simple prescription, much that is unclear to you on various Bible subjects and topics will become clearer as you continue to ask the Lord to give you the understanding you stand in need of as you continue to study His Word.

None of us are any more important than anyone else in these forums. Where a brother or sister lacks understanding on a particular point of salvation, I believe it is THE RESPONSIBILITY OF US ALL to try to help that individual see what he/she needs to see and then encourage him/her TO BE A DOER of the Word and not just a "hearer" only.

M.A.  

M.A.

Gary K

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #145 on: July 13, 2001, 10:07:00 AM »
Hi JHerbert,

Could I ask what you mean by the following: Then, we see, in a sort of "final, perhaps *purging* act of conscience.???

Are you saying, as seems to be implied in your wording, that Abraham did this as a sort of penance?  I am really curious as to the meaning of this statement.


Richard Myers

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #146 on: July 14, 2001, 08:39:00 AM »
Brother James,  we have a good topic that touches on this subject in the Kings forum. It is Without a Wedding Garment. You might take a look and see if it can help in this discussion here.  :)

Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

jherbertthompson

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #147 on: July 15, 2001, 12:57:00 PM »
Brother's.  Brother Gary K has asked:
>>>Could I ask what you mean by the following: Then, we see, in a sort of "final, perhaps *purging* act of conscience.??? Are you saying, as seems to be implied in your wording, that Abraham did this as a sort of penance? I am really curious as to the meaning of this statement.

No, I am not saying that Abraham was in sorts working out a penance...I agree however, that is does sound as though that is what I said. Lets see if I can clarify this by another statement...It was God who brought out a work in Abraham, and which, perhaps due to his previous blunders, was designed to, [and I have no other way of saying it] *test* Abraham's *loyalty*, and also to fix in Abraham's, as well as the coming nation of Israel's mind forever, the *truth about God and how He does things*...Mainly that the *sacrifice* which was eventually made on Mount Morah was a *symbol* of the *Lamb of God* or Jesus, who came in the *rescue of man kind* or perhaps said in another way; was to *set man "right" with God* through His sacrifice...

I hope that this helps to straighten things out...Perhaps I'm off track a bit, and I would certainly appreciate other's ideas in regard to it.  :)


Richard Myers

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #148 on: July 15, 2001, 07:08:00 PM »
Sounds good to me.  :)  Abraham was given the closest test ever to come to man. He failed the previous two. What an object lesson for us! The most beautiful object lesson in the Bible.  :)

Richard

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James Saptenno

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #149 on: July 16, 2001, 08:49:00 AM »
Brother Allan F.

Romans 2:12-16 is giving us a picture that all other nations outside of the Jews even they have not the Torah, but if they have the Principe of the law, if they have LOVE, is was accounted to them that they too were keeping the law of God, and will be saved by the grace of God.

As for the Jews if they keep the Torah they will be justified by their deeds (Romans 2:13), but again Paul told us that no one will be justified by keeping the law, as no one can keep the law perfectly. Righteousness will never comes from keeping the law, so, no one will ever be justified by their deeds (Romans 3:20,28; Galatians  2:16; 3:11). They will never  have their eternal life, because the law could not give life to them that was not righteous against the law (Galatians 3:21).

Romans 8:3 – For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh……..

What things the law could not do for us because of the weakness of the flesh? Giving us LIFE. As no one will ever be justified by keeping the law and by that they might live, but the law will condemn every man and all must die.

That is why, God must do it for us through Christ, the only “person” in the world history that can keep the law and satisfied the law. By believing in Him and keeping a life after the Spirit, the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us (Romans 8:4).

But against the law, we still fall short, we still could not reach sinless perfection and for that we still must die. That’s why, the law must go for believers in Christ, otherwise they will never got their life. Thus, Christ ended the law for us “in Him.” The written law (the Torah including the 10 Cs) has no more function for them that were in Christ by faith, they all were sons of God and serve God in “the newness of the Spirit” or living after the Spirit and no longer in “the oldness of the letter” (Romans 7:6). A life of the “new creature in Christ”, where old things passed away (a life after the flesh and under the law) and all things become new (newness of the Spirit and living after the Spirit) - II Corinthians 5:17.

Romans 8:1 “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.”
No condemnation, because there is no law and if there is no law there is also no transgression and sin was dead, and sin was also not imputed (Romans 4:15; 5:13; 7:8). In Christ the law ends (Romans 10:4), meaningless for His believers.

A believer is in Christ by faith, no longer need the law as a schoolmaster to guide him to his Savior. He is with his Savior, as he is in Him by faith, he is the Son of God (Galatians 3:21-26). And the only law that exists and ruled the life of the sons of God in heaven and on earth and in the whole universe is just LOVE. A holy principle that binds each other and with God. No written law or commandments needed.

Romans 7:6 – But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of the spirit; and not in the oldness of the letter.

A life of the “new creature in Christ”, where old things passed away (a life after the flesh and under the law) and all things become new (newness of the Spirit and living after the Spirit) - II Corinthians 5:17.

If you are “in Christ”, your life is ruled by love, a life controlled by the Spirit.

If you want live by the flesh, your life is controlled by the law (Romans 7:5; Galatians 3:17,18) or by the “oldness of the letter.”

In His love

James S.


James Saptenno

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #150 on: July 16, 2001, 09:36:00 AM »
Brother Gary K.

James S.,
I quote from your post: "It is the greatest lie of Satan that said a man can keep the law of God."

Do you mind showing me this from the Bible or the SOP? I want to see this quoted chapter and verse. It is completely new news to me.

-----------

It was of course not written in the bible or in the SOP, but it was a conclusion from the gospel of Christ as preached by Paul.

Paul has stated many times that no one will ever be justified by keeping the law, that means no one can stand righteous before the law, otherwise he can claim eternal life. But the law could not give eternal life to the law keeper as they can never reach righteousness and sinless perfection demanded by the law. Why, they can't? Because of the weakness of the flesh (Romans 8:3; Galatians 3:21), so God must do it for men through Christ (Romans 8:4).


In Galatians 3:10 we read that all law keeper are under curse because no one can keep the law and satisfied the demands.

Righteousness could only come from faith in Christ, and the grace of God granted us life even we are unperfect and still a sinner before the law. But "in Christ" we have no condemnation, as for the believer in Christ there is no written law to observe (the old things of the letter) but we live in the newness of the Spirit which is a life after the Spirit. A life controlled by the Spirit, do we still need a written law then?

In His love

James S.


James Saptenno

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #151 on: July 16, 2001, 09:57:00 AM »
Brother Richard.

You and Gary were right. I have studied Jack S. lectures and have a lot of discussion with Yom where I defend our doctrines as much as I know. But later on I found out that they were right and I admitted that in the forum. Since then I keep studying the NT carefully and going further in the "in Christ" theology. I find out that the law was ended and lost it function for the believer in Christ, that even Jack S. and Yom is still looking at it as valid, even they are not under the law.

That is why I need to share my study in order to find out whether I am correct or not. I want to find out the real thruth of the gospel of Christ by sharing with all of you. I hope I might find out from you that I am wrong.

Please forgive me if my thoughts is against our doctrine at this time, but it is just a bible study. I am always ready and willing to admit if I am wrong. But that need a good discussion.

Let's the Spirit of God to guide all of us into unity of His gospel.

In His love

James S.


Richard Myers

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #152 on: July 16, 2001, 11:15:00 AM »
Brother James, we are happy to have this discussion with you. We are here for this purpose. You may express whatever your thoughts are and share what you believe. Our rules express very clearly that we will not allow "teaching" contrary to what the church believes, but this you have not done. We will go to great lengths in seeking to answer your concerns. We love you and what ever we can do in looking at this most basic and important subject, we want to. The truth can stand a close examination. It will not suffer.

Your spirit has been good and I again want to thank you for being kind and considerate in all of our discussion. I do have a request though. Because your ideas are out of harmony with what we believe as a people, I would ask that you restrict yourself to this one topic. Here we can try and resolve the most basic of doctrines. To go into other forums or topics will only lead to difficulties. It would then appear that you were attempting to influence others to believe as you do. I noticed a post of yours in another thread where you were saying we are not bound to keep the Sabbath. This is a serious error and while you may believe and teach a false gospel in the church and not be in fear of disfellowhshipment, it will not that way with the Sabbath. Most all church members will take great offense when you begin to teach contrary to the Sabbath. Since you do not believe you are bound to keep the Sabbath, it will not be long before you are not keeping it. This is grounds for removing your church membership.

We want to bring you back into a proper understanding of Bible doctrine. One of the best ways that I can think to do this right now is to say what I said before. Not only are you finding disagreement with us at TRO, but you recognize that you differ with the church. Let me again say that Ellen White did not change her theology in 1888. If you have accepted her as a prophet in the past, then I plead with you to listen carefully as I try and persuade you that she has put this concern we have with the gospel in straight terms that a child can understand. All through her life as a prophet. So, while I have taught from the Bible and you find fault with this over and over, let me try another approach. Not that Ellen White is the authority, but rather that Ellen White agrees with what we believe the Bible says. Take that as you wish, but understand that you will have to reject Ellen White as a prophet if you wish to hold to your current position. It is a shameful thing for others to profess to believe in Ellen White and quote her to support their doctrine and reject that which shows them to be in error. Yom and Elder Sequierra do such.

You, my friend will not do this, but rather you will be more honest and will have to reject her completely to hold to your current thinking. I pray this will not be the case, but rather you will see the wisdom of listening to what God has said through her.

In our current discussion, you continue to build a case that we believe a man is saved by his works and over and over I have said that a man is saved by faith in the sacrifice of Jesus and the reception of the Holy Spirit. You have also denied the infilling of the Holy Spirit that gives power to obey the law.

You make a distinction between the keeping of the law and the manifesting of the fruits of the Spirit. Look at the last fruit of the Spirit and what do you see? Tell me what this means to you. Also, tell me that we are allowed to break the Sabbath and tell me that we are allowed to retain eternal life when we kill an innocent man. This is what it means to be free from the contraints of the law. My brother, you are in a most serious condition. Please pray with us for the Holy Spirit to help in our discussion, that we might know the truth for the honor and glory of God.

In His love and grace,     Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Allan F

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #153 on: July 17, 2001, 12:12:00 PM »
Thanks for your post, brother James. I beleive that if we would have more open minded bible studies (as we have here) in our church, there would be more growth toward unity in doctrines and beliefs among us. Please continue in your good spirit.

To go right to the main problem, as I see it, I will quote from your last post to me:

"Paul told us that no one will be justified by keeping the law, as no one can keep the law perfectly. Righteousness will never come from keeping the law, so, no one will ever be justified by their deeds (Romans 3:20,28; Galatians 2:16; 3:11)."

As I see it, it is no contradiction between Rom 2:13 and Rom 3:20, where it says that "the doers of the law shall be justified", and "by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified".

The former emphazises that the ones who are being justified, will give them selves totally to Gods leading and do everything Gods want them to do. They will not only be hearers of the law, but doers of it.

Rom 3:20 emphazises the fact that good works of obedience can never purchase salvation. They can, at best, be evidence of the faith by which justification is received.

But the relationship between faith and works are so inseparatable that while God can be just and justify the ungodly by faith, He is still just when he judges all men by their works (Rom 2:6, Rev 22:12), also they who have faith in Jesus.

"Sin is sin wherever and by whomever it is committed. Nor does it become less sinful by being committed in the midst of religious privileges. The people of God have no special license to sin, as though God would not be so strict in noticing the offenses of those who profess to serve Him. On the contrary, the Bible consistently teaches that the most serious sins among men are those that are committed by the professed people of God (Isa 1:11-17, Matt 21:31,32)(6BC p.485).

The problem of the jews were that they put their assurance of God's favor and their justification in the fact that they had the law.
But they didn't use the law as a rule of life. Of this reason God could not fulfill his great plans with Israel. When the King of Kings came to this earth, to receive fruits from his vineyard, the jews (who had promises of becoming the greatest nation under the sun) were not even free in their own country, but were under subjection to the romans. They were so jealous of the name of God that they would not even pronounce their most sacred name for God. Yet they lived in such a manner that the gentiles were led to blaspheme His name (Rom 2:24).

Like the jews, I beleive that our only solution is to have faith in Jesus as a personal saviour from sin: To be justified by grace and not by our own efforts to keep the law, "for the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can [it] be" Rom 8:7.
Then we will "walk in the spirit so we do not fulfill the lust of the flesh" (Gal 5:16), "so that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit" (Rom 8:4)

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die; but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Rom 8:13).

Allan F


jherbertthompson

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #154 on: July 23, 2001, 05:34:00 PM »
Brethren [specifically Brother Saptenno].  I have recently run across two such quotes from SOP regarding the *allegations of satan -- verses the Nature, Character, and Government of God*...

Give me a couple of hours tomarrow in the Library, and I will forward them on to TRO.

Your brother in Christ.


James Saptenno

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #155 on: July 24, 2001, 09:36:00 AM »
Brother Allan F.

Romans 10:5 – For Moses describeth the righteousness, which is of the law. That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

If you believe that a believer can keep the law then justification is not by faith but by the law. And whoever stand righteous before the law will live, and Christ died in vain.

But Paul said in Galatians that you have quoted “ For if there had been a law which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the Scripture hath conclude all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believeth” (Galatians 3:21,22).

That means, no law keeper will stands righteous before the law, no one could ever be justified by keeping the law and inherit eternal life, as no one can keep the law and fulfil the demands of the law.

Romans 3:20-24 – Therefore by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified in His sight….But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets. Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe; for there is no difference. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

The righteousness of God by faith in Jesus Christ is manifested WITHOUT the law not WITH the law. We will only be justified by faith in Christ if there is no law to keep. If justification by faith goes parallel with keeping the law, then no one will live as all have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23), all were under dominion of sin (Romans 7:23), condemned to die (Romans 7:24). So, for a believer in Christ there is no law to keep, otherwise he will be always a sinner before the law and under curse (Galatians 3:10). Christ has redeemed us not for to be kept under curse forever, but to give us freedom from it and from the law that keeps us under sin. Sin will have no more dominion over us as we are no longer under the law but under grace (Romans 6:14), which means God has ended the function of the law “in Christ”, that a believer might be justified without the law, but justified by his faith in Christ. And if there is no law, there is no transgression, sin was dead and sin was not imputed (Romans 4:15; 7:8; 5:13). This is the grace of God and the freedom Christ has given us.

Galatians 5:1 – It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by the yoke of slavery. (NIV)

What is the yoke of slavery? Galatians 4:21 – Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? Galatians 4:24 – These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai, and bears children who are to be slaves. Slaves of what? Slaves of sin and death as we were prisoners by the law (Galatians 3:22,23; Romans 7:23,24).

If God ask us to keep His law (Torah which include the 10 Cs), He put us forever slaves of sin and death as no one can keep the law and satisfied the demands of the law. Why we can’t keep the law? Because the flesh is weak (Romans 8:3) and we might sin from time to time.

So, God must do it for us through Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by our faith in Him and no longer by the law (Philippians 3:9), because there is no more law that will put us under the law. This is righteousness from God without the law that was granted to us, a free gift (Romans 3:22-24). And our faith will lead us to live after the Spirit (Romans 8:4) and bear fruit of the Spirit which is in harmony with the written law (Galatians 5:22,23).

But if the law is still valid and binds a believer in Christ, then Christ died in vain. What He has done for us (redemption, justification by faith and life) become meaningless, as before the law we are still sinners and must die. There could not be “justification by faith” parallel with “condemnation by the law.” The only solution is the law must go.

Romans 10:4 – For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Or as Paul has said in Romans 3:21 “A righteousness of God without the law.”

In Christ the law ends for a believer, it’s function ended and become meaningless. Righteousness by faith could only be granted to a believer without the present of the law, that is the meaning of righteousness of God without the law. We were dead to the law by the body of Christ (Romans 7:4), we were delivered from the law (v. 6), in Christ there is no condemnation (Romans 8:1) because there is no law that convict us and condemn us if we transgress the law (Romans 4:10; 7:9-11,13).

Believers in Christ have peace with God as the law that is against us and contrary to us (the law revealed the sin in us and condemn us, the law is holy, good and just, but we are carnal and sold under sin) has blotted out and nailed to the cross (Colossians 2:14) together with the carnal mind that made us an enemy of God (Ephesians 2:114-16).

What left for us is the Principe of the law (Love) to keep, which is fruit of the Spirit that comes from a life after the Spirit, serving God in “newness of the Spirit” and not in the “oldness of the letter” (Romans 7:6).

Why should we then, that were sons of God by faith in Christ and suppose to live as heavenly creatures lives, a life ruled by love, need a written law to rule our live? Paul has said in Colossians 2:20-22 “ Wherefore if you be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances. (Touch not; taste not; handle not; which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men?” And he continued with – Colossians 3:1,2 – If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on the things above, not on things on the earth.

When love as fruit of the Spirit ruled our heart, we have fulfilled the demands of the law because  “love is the fulfillment of the law”
(Romans 10:4).

In His love

James S.


jherbertthompson

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #156 on: July 24, 2001, 05:00:00 PM »
Brother Saptenno and TRO...I have, to the best of my inept abilities, carefully read and processed the last several posts...I find it very interesting stuff.

I'd like to start with a picture of Job.  Here is a man whom God tells satan is "upright in all his [Job's] ways"...To which satan counters; "Ya sure, he [Job] only obeys and worships you because you have prospered him greatly".

Satan the [the acccuser] has challenged God that Job *cannot keep God Law*, it is burdensome; unfair; and arbitrary...Job's *theology*, if you want to dissect it, is terribly wrong...at least until the very end. And look at what God says of Job..."He [Job] has said what is true about me"...Oh! That God might say that about me!

Some months ago I started a folder on the *Law and the Gospel*.  I have since been studying first a Bible context, and the SOP. This has led to some very interesting stuff for me...Comparing Romans, Galatians, and James, it seem a real discrepancy between Paul's *works through faith*; and James' *faith that works*.

One of my first questions was I think the same which Paul askes in Romans; "not being justified by the works of the law; and if the law has been done away with; then, why obedience?"

I got a lot of different *stuff*, but let me share this:  Many times throughout Paul's writings [Galatians 1:6], he consistently calls upon the graciousness of God to *act* with a conventional *relationship with Christ* "who is the author and finisher of our faith..."  You want to be justified by the law?  Then, you have cut yourself off from grace...[I think?]  I also present for your consideration that Paul is primarily speaking to a *gentile* audience...

James on the other hand seems to contradict Paul's message with the statement(s) which seem to say -- *without works, there "is no righteousness, even righteousness by faith."
Or, faith that produces works...Here, on closer examination however, Paul and James do not contridict each other at all...[Need I go on?]

Then, looking at Abraham [Genesis 15:6] -- "And he [Abraham] *believed* in the Lord; and He [God] counted it to him [Abraham] for righteousness..."  (BTW) The word *believed* may also be translated as *said amen; or, so-be-it*; and his faith was counted to him as righteousness.  An interesting thought as it would them read:  "And he said *amen* [to God's way of doing things?], and it was counted to him as righteousness.

Just a few thoughts for the evening...

Your brother in Christ.



James Saptenno

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #157 on: July 30, 2001, 07:20:00 AM »
Brother Thompson.

Quote.
Some months ago I started a folder on the *Law and the Gospel*. I have since been studying first a Bible context, and the SOP. This has led to some very interesting stuff for me...Comparing Romans, Galatians, and James, it seem a real discrepancy between Paul's *works through faith*; and James' *faith that works*.
Unquote.

Paul and James were saying the same thing. They were saying that a believer life must show his belief, not by keeping the written law (10 Cs) but to love each other. Love is the law that Christ gives his believers, love is the fulfillment of the law (Romans 13:10), love covers the 10 Cs which is just a transcription of it but the 10 Cs can not cover love. We might not kill our neighbor that we hate because we are afraid for trial of the civil law and put in prison or electric chair. But if we have love that ruled our heart and our life, we are in harmony with the 10 Cs (Galatians 5:23). Love is the law of heaven and the whole universe, the 10 Cs were only a law for the Jews on this earth to reveals their sin, to kill them and to guide them to Christ as their Redeemer and Savior.

Why did love substitute the 10 Cs?  Because if you have love, which is fruit of the Spirit that comes from the “willing and the doing of God through His Spirit” in us, that means your life are ruled by the Spirit, controlled by the Spirit. You no longer controlled your own life, you are dead and Christ alive in you.

But if you still controlled your own life, the Spirit can not work in you. And what is shown to the world are only the act of the flesh, as that are all what we can produce. Without the Spirit, we can only keep the commandments of God in mind, but our act or doing remains acts of the flesh as we are slaves to the law of sin (Romans 7:25).

What James means with “faith without works is dead” is a believer that did not have love in his heart and in his life or a believer that lives for the flesh that lives for self. And whoever lives for the flesh shall die (Romans 8:13) and will not inherit the Kingdom of God (Galatians 5:21).

Another meaning is that a believer that have no love and only act of the flesh in fact did not have faith in Christ. He just believes as Satan’s believe too. But he did not surrender his heart to God, and maintain a selfish life. His faith is a dead faith not alive. He is not dead yet, and Christ can not live in him.

In His love

James S.



Richard Myers

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #158 on: July 30, 2001, 10:24:00 AM »
Brother James, which one of the comandments cannot be kept when the Christian has this love in his heart? Tell me when you have this love born of God dwelling in you, which commandment do you break? Do you steal, do you murder, do you covet, do your break the Sabbath, do you worship idols, are you angry with your brother without cause, do you lust after a woman in your heart, is there pride in your heart when you have this new birth experience?  Tell me the the law of God is not written upon you heart and that you do in fact break the commandments of God when you have this great love you speak of. I speaking of the law that has come to your knowledge, not the law that you are ignorant of.

In His love and grace,     Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Richard Myers

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Re: Justification by Faith
« Reply #159 on: August 02, 2001, 05:15:00 AM »
For those that are still having a little difficulty in seeing the need to keep the commandments of God, think of them as laws of love. If you love me keep my commandments, said Jesus. The ten commandments are a reflection of love. If we love our neighbor we shall not steal from him, bear false witness against him, kill him, etc.  If we do these things we have not love for our neighbor.

Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.