Author Topic: On Tithing  (Read 24633 times)

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Domingo

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On Tithing
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2002, 07:59:00 PM »
Thank you, Richard.  I was trying to say something encouraging yet realistic for Sister Glass.  I guess I came accross as needing encouraging myself.   :)
I guess we can all use some.

Richard Myers

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« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2002, 07:42:00 AM »
Brother Domingo, it is a difficult subject and we all need to be encouraged by the promises of God. The church is to be that body through which this edification is to come. Sad that many times it is the opposite, but we can find both. It has always been that way. I remember Paul being asked to go through the purification rites. This is an example of cowardice on the part of the leadership of the early church. Yet, the church continued and will soon fulfill her appointed work.

You might read through some of the topics in the Worship Forum. They cover this ground from many different aspects.

Richard

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Sister Marie

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« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2002, 03:30:00 PM »
I have prayed about this and been given no instruction to send my tithes elsewhere other than where we are instructed to send our tithes. I am exptremly sad about the goings on in the Church, however that will have to be the Lords concern. I have to keep with the chear word of prophecy in God's leading. I am feeling that in telling Ellen White God (and maybe her too) knew that things would not go as instructed, but that we need to give it there anyway. If misused I am feeling it will be on the shoulders of those who use it wrong by putting the tithes in the Stocks.

I thought I would let you know as I know I have not been talking or thinking right for awhile do to being so surprised at learning about their putting tithe into stocks. I know you been praying for my clear sightedness to return. I thank you!!

------------------
With Christian Love,
Sister Glass

[This message has been edited by Sister Glass (edited 11-10-2002).]

With Christian Love,
Marie

M.A. Crawford

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« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2004, 11:06:00 AM »
"Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings." Malachi 3:8.

Much has been written in the Bible and the writings of Ellen G. White about tithing, and rightly so, because the tithe is for the support of the ministry (see the Ellen G. White quotes above in the post dated 10-25-2002 at 10:50 A.M.). But there is another aspect of giving that should not be overlooked. Chief among these, I believe, is that of church expense. In many churches (including my own), the giving of church expense is not what it should be. For many it is a low priority item. And in some rare instances (unfortunately), some do not contribute to it at all. One reason for this dilemma I believe is because it is not emphasized from the desk as it should be. In many churches we are being taught less and less from the Word of God and more and more from the textbooks of "scholars" and theologians. The subject of giving is often left up to the church's Stewardship department and its various programs. But freewill and other offerings are mentioned in both the Old and New Testaments (Lev. 22:18; Num. 29:39; Deut. 12:6; 2 Chron. 31:14; Luke 21:4; and 21:17 to cite a few). As the Lord states in His Word, when we are faithful to Him in giving as we should be, He will open the "windows of Heaven" and pour out a blessing so great until there shall hardly be room enough to receive it (Mal. 3:10).

M.A.

M.A.

Sister Marie

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« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2004, 05:21:00 PM »
Ellen White does tell us that even tho the church will really get bad that we are not to leave it. That He (God) will seperate the wheat from the tares in His time. If we do not keep supporting the Church, His Church, His last day Church, then what is it going to run on and who is going to pay the Pastors? What church will there be to seperate the Wheat from the tares? We need to support His Church.

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With Christian Love,
Sister Marie

With Christian Love,
Marie

Liane H

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« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2004, 08:49:00 AM »
This verse has been quoted many times regarding the issue of tithe:

"As the Lord states in His Word, when we are faithful to Him in giving as we should be, He will open the "windows of Heaven" and pour out a blessing so great until there shall hardly be room enough to receive it." (Mal. 3:10).

There is great danger in this verse for many. They come to expect that these blessings are to happen forever and when something goes wrong and there appears to be no blessings they stop paying tithe and even fall away from the church.

Our reason for giving tithe should be for one reason only. Because God tells us to do so. No matter what, from good to bad times the tithe is to be given.

Just the very fact we are breathing one more day is a blessing, but some look to tangible things seeking them as proof of their faithfulness in tithing.

The greatest blessing of all is to be able to enter into His house one more Sabbath and give thanks that we are alive to witness to the world of His Holy Day. Of the love of Jesus and the promise that He will come gain.

Liane  

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M.A. Crawford

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« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2004, 01:32:00 PM »
"There is great danger in this verse [Mal. 3:10] for many. They come to expect that these blessings are to happen forever and when something goes wrong and there appears to be no blessings they stop paying tithe and fall away from the church."

It is most unfortunate that there are those who want God to be some celestial "Santa Claus" who is there to supply their every want without fail. The reality of the situation is that God is there for us TO SUPPLY OUR NEEDS, but oftentimes God's Will for our lives does not coincide with THE TIMING or even the things that we ask of God. The facts of the matter are these:

1. As the song says: He [God] may not come when we want Him, but HE'S ALWAYS ON TIME!

2. God has given to normal human beings sense enough to solve our own problems WHEN WE MAKE WISE, BIBLE-BASED DECISIONS in our attempts to solve these problems. But God has never promised that we would not encounter disappointments, failures, heartaches, sorrow, and delays in this life WHEN WE BECOME CHRISTIANS. As a matter of fact, the Bible is replete throughout the Old and New Testaments with examples of just the opposite. In reference, for example, to his sufferings for the cause of Jesus Christ, the apostle Paul writes:

"Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness." 2 Corinthians 11:24-27.

How many of us as Christians have been called upon to endure the kind of suffering Paul describes above? Yet he was a faithful and loyal servant of The Most High who remained faithful and loyal to Him TO THE END not because the Christian journey is without hardships and difficulties, but because of HIS LOVE FOR GOD which was based upon FAITH AND TRUST IN HIM and not upon whether or not he received any "requested blessings" of the Lord.

There are many who are in financial and other difficulties BECAUSE OF POOR CHOICES THEY HAVE MADE and not because they have not been blessed of God. We are also well aware that there are those among the household of faith who are seriously ill and in hospitals and nursing homes. But, as someone alluded to in a post above, the greatest blessing from God that all of us enjoy is we are above ground and STILL AMONG THE LAND OF THE BREATHING!!

M.A.            

M.A.

Cop

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On Tithing
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2004, 06:52:00 PM »
If I were to give money to a drug addict, and I know that part of the money will be misused to purchase drugs...am I doing what Christ wishes of me or will He hold me accountable for not being a proper stewart of what He has given me?

If I were to give money to a drunkard, and know that part of the money will be misused to purchase alcohol...am I doing what Christ desires of me or will He hold me accountable for not being a proper stewart of what He has given me?

If I give tithe money to men, and know that part of the money will be misused in ways or to purchase things that God condemns...am I doing what Christ desires of me or will He hold me accountable for not being a proper stewart of what He has given me?


Randy S

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« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2004, 07:23:00 AM »
I believe based on Bible examples that we are to do what we know we should (tithe) regardless of whether we think those tithes are being used correctly.

Godly people such as Samuel's mother still brought their tithes and offerings to the temple even though Eli's sons, who were acting as priests, were theiving drunkards.  That's an extreme example, but I think the principle is clear: we are accountable for our responsibility to tithe and God will hold those who oversee its use (Administration) accountable for what they do with it.

That said, if it's true that some tithe money is invested in stocks, and I don't know whether that is true or not, it would not bother me.  Here's why:

A hundred years ago putting money in the stock market was largely gambling.  Today, it can STILL be gambling, but it can also be a very prudent form of money management, depending on what specific equities are purchased.  Today there are many new forms of stocks, some of which are simply equity wrappers on bonds, and differ very little from interest bearing accounts.

Remember that in the parable of the good steward, the Master's rebuke to the foolish servant was that he should have at least put the money in the bank, where it could have earned interest!  I think that establishes that God expects his funds to be invested wisely, and that temporarily unused funds should be invested.  You can prudently replicate that "bank interest" in today's stock market, depending on which specific equities are bought, while that could not be done in Ellen White's day.

Secondly, at the risk of being misunderstood, "thing's change".  Eterernal truths and their underlying principles are one thing.  God's tithes should never be used for gambling or speculation, which is the only thing you could do with stocks 100 years ago.  But if there are equities that are now prudent investments, as there are, then it is no longer accurate to prohibit the specific "vehicle" or form of investment.

For example, Ellen White spoke against bicycles.  But we do not condemn people who purchase and ride bicycles today.  It was not the bicycle itself which EGW found objectionable, but the extravagent waste of time and money on a toy used only to amuse.  Today, bicycles are not exhorbitant in cost  and can be a very practical and money-saving forms of transport, with health benefits to boot.  Things changed.

Stocks are no longer just individual companies.  Today when you can buy a stock that is actually a mutual fund which invests in U.S. Gov't bonds, that stock is essentially no different from buying a bond directly from uncle sam.  Stocks can have a place in prudent money management, depending on what specifically is being purchased, while that was not the case 100 years ago.  And God will hold our leadership accountable for their stewardship of His funds, just like the parable teaches.


M.A. Crawford

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« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2004, 12:28:00 PM »
This is a very good post on tithing. One in which I believe the conclusions are sound (each paragraph is very well presented) and in which I concur.

M.A.

M.A.

Richard Myers

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« Reply #30 on: November 18, 2004, 04:20:00 PM »
Amen.

Tithing seems to involve more than blind obedience. There are principles involved and man must look to God for wisdom and strength. When areas of ministry are neglected, the South, then God expected that they would be provdided for. God has a church and it will be cleansed. I think tithing can indicate a very strong faith in the Word of God. On the other hand, God did not make robots that do not think, study, and pray. There are some who would want this kind of blind obedience in the church. It is very sad.

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Cop

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On Tithing
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2004, 06:53:00 PM »
A friend and I have been having many discussions in regards to paying our tithe to the Conference. We have both personaly saw and heard things taking place in the SDA ministry [which this is not the place to go into in detail] and these actions are not supported by Scripture or is warned of by the SOP.

We give offerings to our church, but have not been paying tithe. Our tithes are being saved and we are searching for a way to give our tithe directly to foreign SDA ministers or missionaries. Comments and advice welcomed...

[This message has been edited by Cop (edited 11-19-2004).]


Randy S

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« Reply #32 on: November 21, 2004, 07:15:00 AM »
Here's how I think about it:  If I believe a police officer in my town is dishonest, does that mean I no longer have to obey the law?  No, I am still bound to honor thier authority and the laws of the land, but you can be sure that I will be speaking to police administration, the mayor, and on up the line until the problem is addressed.

We are to do what is right even though someone else may be rebelling against God.  We are an example to others.  Someone else may learn of what we are doing in withholding or redirecting tithe, and may then apply their own opinion as to what constitutes misuse, rightly or wrongly, which they then use to justify their own withholding.

Also, try as we might, we tend to have less info on the situation in foreign lands than we do in our local situation.  Trying to avoid abuse locally we may place God's funds into an even worse situation without knowing it.

Lastly, our earthly administrations will always be imperfect, and our knowledge of them always falls short of total knowledge.  Knowing that our funds will never find perfect use, we need to keep in mind that tremendous good is done, even through imperfect channels, which likely more than offsets the bad.  God is able to bless and multiply our tithes in their effect for His work.

Knowing that it's God's money and His cause, in which He has graciously allowed us to play a part, why not give through the structure which He has set up, and bring your concern about its use to the King of the Universe, and ask Him to deal with the impediments to its use?  Then have faith that God answers prayer.

And if you know for sure that abuse is taking place, why not systematically present your case to the appropriate authority, as Paul instructed the Church: taking your case to the individual involved, and if he will not listen, to the church elders (his bosses) and so on.  Ultimately we have tyhe Highest Authority, the Just and Faithful God, who holds His Church in supreme regard, and to Whom it is our priviledge to bring our concerns.


Cop

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On Tithing
« Reply #33 on: November 24, 2004, 10:06:00 PM »
[Sorry to take so long getting back…tornadoes!]

Randy, I don’t see the connection between a dishonest cop and paying tithe. The cop doesn’t make the laws nor does man tell me to pay a tithe…God does. If you believe there is a ‘dirty’ cop on the force, speaking to police administration, the mayor, etc. may correct the problem. If it doesn’t, you have the right to be heard at city council or county commissioners’ meetings about the problem. If you are still ignored, citizens can obtain signatures on a petition asking for a recall vote on whoever is ignoring the problem. Citizens can even call for a tax roll-back and hurt them in their budgets in order to get their attention.

You do not say if you are a layman or clergy. If you are a member of the clergy, you know that laymen in the SDA Church are unable to do anything other than voice their dislike for actions of the leadership. Since 1903, the lay members have had less and less say in the operations of the church. Concerning the tithe and laypeople having a say, I refer to the following post by WendyForsyth:
_________________________________________________ _________________________________________________ __________
Wendy here: I find it interesting that out of a 59 member commission, only 4 laypersons are being selected to be included in this important issue.
Commission to Study Use of Tithe
Delegates voted to establish a 59-member commission, with broad-based world representation, to review the use of tithe including tithe exchange, depreciation and tithe, tithe in educational institutions, and interdivision employee support and tithe.

Membership categories include:
3 Chair, vice chair, and secretary appointed by the GC president and treasurer.
5 General Conference representatives
7 theologians/church historians
18 division presidents (13) and treasurers (5)
4 union presidents (2) and treasurers (2)
12 conference presidents (5), treasurers (3) and pastors (4)
4 institutions: K-12 (2) and higher education (2)
4 laypersons

No time limit for the commission to present a report was included in the vote.
_________________________________________________ _________________________________________________ __________
Odds of 55 people who are living from the tithe to 4 tithe payers of being heard…is this fair?

When people are refused a right to speak out, the only way to get the attention of those living on the monies of contributors is to curtail or slow the amounts they receive. You suggested, “And if you know for sure that abuse is taking place, why not systematically present your case to the appropriate authority, as Paul instructed the Church: taking your case to the individual involved, and if he will not listen, to the church elders (his bosses) and so on.” If you are a layman, have you ever attempted to do this? I have and I personally know what happens when a layman dares to speak up.

Locally, the pastor, and treasurer, of a church were recently discovered to have embezzled approximately $500,000. As is usual in such a case, neither were prosecuted, the treasurer was disfellowshipped, the pastor was moved to another church.  Two weeks ago, we listened to a pastor yelling and accusing an elder and a SS teacher of “disunity”.  The female teacher of a youth class was condemned for teaching from the heretical book, ‘Desire of Ages’ and not from the politically correct, ‘Messiah’. The elder had dared to teach and preach from the King James Bible instead of the NIV. Both were told to correct their ways, “…or else!”  I love this church but, as I said, we are looking for somewhere to send our tithes.


Liane H

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On Tithing
« Reply #34 on: November 25, 2004, 05:06:00 AM »
Tithing is one of the most difficult aspect of the Christian experience for us to deal with. Like my sister who is an agnostic and hates the idea that I pay tithe for money I earned I gently tell her that it is He that gave me this body and breath to just be alive to work so I could pay tithe.

How is it that a 10th seems like so much when you have to pay it out according to the word of Scripture, but is nothing when we buy a TV, new tires, car, etc.?

Self is the center of this world and we have to constantly fight the fight of self with God working in our lives. Surrender comes against pride and so many other things that the world throws at us daily.

We are not to be blind guides, we are accountable for what we do and how we do it. Each of us are to answer to the One of authority of the universe.

Because someone in authority in the church does something wrong and makes us question paying tithe are we to follow in their footsteps by withholding tithe because of their actions? Do we cause the good pastors who depend on the tithe for their substance to be paid less or lose a job because we do not pay the tithe?

So Would it be better to work a situation in which we in the church pay our tithe directly to the pastor for his income? Can that be done?

When tithe has gone down do the Administrators of the church take a cut in pay so that more funds can be spent elsewhere?

The fact that members are not paying tithe should be more than enough for the administrators of the church to realize that they are not doing their job. These lack of funds is and has been a way for them to realize something is wrong.

It does not require a committe of 59 people from around the world to figure that out. By their fruits we know if they are serving God or self.

To be truthful I find it appalling to me when a pastor can buy a house and a member can barely feed their family, keep a roof over their head and are still expected to pay tithe.

So what is one to do?

Each of us need to study and in prayer seek the will of God for all that we do with the body of the church. We are to seek counsel and wisdom from those that have gone before us and left us with knowledge in how we are to conduct ourselves as Christians and the Spirit of Prophecy has much to say regarding the issue of tithe and many other parts of the walk with God.

This is what I am doing. It is not a guide for others, but it is what I have come to terms with from all that I have read, studied and prayed about. I do not pay my full 10th of my tithe. I give more to the local church budget for the church to use as they will.

What I do with the rest is my ministry with inmates in prison. I spend for the tools that I need to keep a fellowship as a pen friend through an independent ministry called SomeOne Cares that has been doing this work for 25 years.

This is a Seventh-day Adventist pastor and his wife that do this ministry. They do not just reach out to SDA's, but anyone who is in prison that desires someone to write to them. There are many of these programs on the Internet and God led me to this one in my search and it turned out to be my own denomination. There was no question in my mind that the Lord led me to this ministry.

One does not use their real name and all letters, though slow, go through the ministry between me and the inmate. It leaves it to their imagination where I live.

I use nice decorative paper and borders with color ink. I have sent them money to their account for stamps, paper and pens to write. I have sent them books to read and I write to them each time I get a letter from them that day.

One thing that did go wrong for me was that when I sent one a book the ABC sent them my address by mistake. Be very careful of that. One cannot send them a book, but it must come from someplace like ABC and they are not to send our address.

Our own brother Curt is in Jordan and needs funds. The Lord has blessed this ministry, but it still needs help. Brother Richard will be glad to give the address or go to the Evangelism forum for more information.

We have the poor in our own back door, there is so much we can do within our own church to start a program that will help the helpless.

Let us all be faithful to our onw stewardship of that which God has given us to be responsible for.

Liane, the Zoo Mama

   

   

 

   

Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Randy S

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« Reply #35 on: November 25, 2004, 06:06:00 AM »
Brother Cop, I am most definitely a layman, and I was merely responding to your request for comment with my own opinion.  Let each be persuaded in his own mind, as this is a very personal decision.

My analogy of the corrupt policeman was merely used to equate to an administrator who was misusing tithe.  In both cases, the law is still binding, regardless of imperfect application by the authorities.    It was perhaps a poor analogy.

Based on the last paragraph of your reply, I have to say that if it were me the solution would be obvious: I would move my membership to a different church.  I travel 50 miles each way to church personally, and pass four other SDA churches to get to the one that I support with my membership.  If there were not another SDA church that I could support, I would raise my own company.

If you have taken the accusation to the Church leadership as Paul suggests, and the situation has not been resolved, and if we know the allegations are true, then the answer to me is to move one's membership.  It's not to withhold the tithe.

While it's no doubt true that Administration takes note of tithe reductions, I sincerely believe that they pay equal attention to membership counts.  If people would simply move their membership to a different church or raise their own when disloyal Pastors refuse to repent then the situation would resolve itself.  Every community needs an example of a fellowship of God's true followers who preach the truth and model the transformation of character that is available through Christ.

This assumes that there really is abuse of authority occuring.  I think we all know people who leave churches and start new congregations because others simply do not agree with them.  That is simply divisive.  But when it truly occurs that an unrepentant rebel has taken over leadership of God's church, then we should not support that church with our membership when we have the ability to support or raise another SDA church elsewhere, assuming we have really addressed all opportunities to let "higher ups" correct the problem.  

We have access to the Final Authority through prayer.  If we are doing what we believe is right God will hear our prayers.  Knowing this, and that all things will be set right in the end, we are to do what is right regardless of what others do.  


Richard Myers

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« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2004, 08:49:00 AM »
There is a need to rightly understand the principles involved in tithing. The concerns expressed in this topic are part of these principles. Rather thank cite examples of wrongdoing, let us look at the doctrinal basis for tithing and how it is that we can be faithful to the One who has given all to us.

One of the observations I would like to share is that Brother Cop has indicated he was looking for a place to send his tithe within the church. This is interesting and it reveals a love for the church.

Can we look at principles that will guide us in better understanding this doctrine?

One of the principles I see is that by tithing into the church, all of the ministry is supported, not just those who are blessed by their location or exposure. Other churches who do not follow tithing see the benefit.

Another principle I see at work is the support of a world-wide ministry. This is what concerns me when I here resistance to tithing. God has a church and it is not because it is perfect. Like Israel of old, it is God's church because it has been entrusted with the truth.

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

JimB

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« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2004, 05:56:00 AM »
I have been following this thread albeit silently. Brother Richard touched on a concern that I was wondering about. That is the world church. It has been about 140 years since the SDA church was formally organized. Now in 2004 we have about 13 million members world wide. To grow so quickly is because of organization. Our God is a God of details and organization. If I stopped putting my tithe in the offering plate at my local church because I disagreed with what my local coference was doing with the monies and other people followed my example where would we be as a world church? However, imperfect our system is God has been blessing it. If you believe that the system needs to be altered to follow more closely a Biblical model then please lets follow the proper channels.
By communion with God in nature, the mind is uplifted, and the heart finds rest.  {DA 291.1}

Cop

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« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2004, 07:47:00 AM »
I appreciate the comments all have given and will continue to pray for guidance from Christ.
_________________________________________
quote:
"To grow so quickly is because of organization. Our God is a God of details and organization."
_________________________________________

Rank Religious Body  Year     Membership In The U.S.A.
1   Catholic Church  2002     66,407,105
2 Southern Baptist   2002     16,247,736
3 United Methodist   2002      8,251,042
4 Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints               2003      5,503,192
5 Evangelical Lutheran Church in America              2002      5,038,066
6 Church of God in Christ 1991 5,000,000
7 Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)
                    2001      3,595,259
8 National Baptist Convention of America    
                    1987      3,500,000
9 Assemblies of God  2002      2,687,366
10 Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod
                    2003      2,512,714
11 SDA in N. America 2002        974,271

These are definitely organized, and it appears, better than we. Is God with them and not us Adventists? Are they doing God's will?

I have never believed that numbers represent that God's will is being obeyed or that He is leading. The thousands of the children of Israel were standing on the borders of the Promised Land, but only two, Josua and Caleb, were allowed to enter.

[This message has been edited by Cop (edited 11-29-2004).]


JimB

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« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2004, 08:04:00 AM »
Numbers can never be the only "ruler" that we use to judge spirituality or even God's blessings. That is a given. However, the fact that our organized church is so very young and is in almost every country around the world and we have a health and educational system 2nd only to Catholic church in such a short time I believe does say something. I can't wait to see how fast the gospel gets around once the latter rain has fallen.
By communion with God in nature, the mind is uplifted, and the heart finds rest.  {DA 291.1}