Author Topic: The Hebrew Sanctuary  (Read 106858 times)

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Harry Elliott

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2001, 05:59:00 AM »
Liane,

Thanks for the feedback.  It’s interesting that the Day of Atonement could have meant the Day of Covering.  :)

Apparently the Day dealt with ALL sins and sinfulness:

“And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the       children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in ALL THEIR SINS, and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their UNCLEANNESS. “  Dt 16:16

Does anybody know why our pioneers decided that it was only repented/confessed sins that were atoned/covered?

Harry


Kevin Hellerud

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2001, 02:51:00 PM »
Because if we are chearishing and enjoying sin (ie not confessing and wanting forgiveness) how can they be covered?


Harry Elliott

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2001, 04:37:00 PM »
Kevin, your answer seems reasonable enough to me.  But I’m trying to resist imposing our reasoning onto the Bible.  If that’s what our pioneers did, I’m disappointed.

This passage deals with *all* of the sins of the children of Israel.  It says that since the sanctuary was “in their midst  of their uncleanness”, every sin anyone committed contaminated it, and that would include deliberate, unconfessed sins.  

So what I want to see is whether our pioneers knew of a passage that contradicts this one by  saying that only repented sins contaminated the sanctuary , and that only repented sins were removed/atoned/covered.

Does that make sense?


DavidTBattler

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2001, 07:44:00 PM »
Quote by Harry Elliot: 03/06/2001

"Our church is far more interested in the yearly than the daily services, since that’s where we teach that we learn about what Christ is doing now."

Hello Brother Elliot

Are you sure that as a church, we are indeed, more interested in the yearly, than in the daily?   :)

In light of the following passage from Desire Of Ages; I would question that:

" In every part it was a symbol of Him; and it had been full of vitality and spiritual beauty. “  (pg.29).   Ellen White was speaking of the ritual services, and thus implying the earthly sanctuary, in all it’s parts, were in some way, a symbol of Christ.  (see also Ps.77:13).

For eg., in one of my recent, above posts, I asked what was important about the pillars of the porch, in the heavenly sanctuary?  These pillars are generally discounted as not having much significance...I mean really; how often do we see them mentioned in a study on the sanctuary?

Part of the answer can be found in 1 Kings 7:

“22  And upon the top of the pillars was lily work: so was the work of the pillars    
       finished.”

What is so important about the pillars of the porch, in the earthly sanctuary?

I will give a little bit of time before completely answering, to see what others may notice about my question.   I can say that as a church, we must be equally interested in ALL parts of the sanctuary services.  Every part is just as important as the next, and is a unified whole.  What do you think?

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"...We believe that through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, we shall be saved..."  (Acts 15:11).

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Harry Elliott

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2001, 04:37:00 PM »
David--

I believe that our church quite properly concentrates on the activities on the Day of Atonement in our response to the many statements like this one:

We can learn much, and should be constantly searching the Scriptures to see if these things are so. God's people are now to have their eyes fixed on the heavenly sanctuary, where the final ministration of our great High Priest in the work of the judgment is going forward,--where He is interceding for His people.-- Review and Herald, Nov. 27, 1883.

Ironically, however, I have concluded that our concentration doesn’t mean we really study what  the Bible says about the atonement at all.  Where else can we find a detailed scriptural description of Jesus’ interceding outside of Deuteronomy 16 and 23?  Our pioneers seem to have arbitrarily selected a minority of the High Priest’s activities on the Day of Atonement and left the rest for to us dig out.  

Our claim to the world is that the Day of Atonement proves that Jesus is currently judging the lives of professing Christians.  But we can’t convince any scripturally knowlegeable people if we aren’t intimately familiar with what the earthly priest did to typify what Jesus does.

As to the porch pillars, I’ll bite.  :) What does the Bible say their significance is?

--Harry


DavidTBattler

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #45 on: March 11, 2001, 11:26:00 AM »
Hello Brother Harry

Thankyou for your response & questions above.  I'm just letting you know that I have seen your post, and will reply as soon as I have a little time...I won't keep you waiting too long...  :)

Part of the answer can be found in 1 Kings 7:

“22 And upon the top of the pillars was lily work: so was the work of the pillars
finished.”

What is so important about the pillars of the porch, in the earthly sanctuary?


------------------
"...We believe that through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, we shall be saved..."  (Acts 15:11).

Your brother in Christ

David T. Battler

[This message has been edited by DavidTBattler (edited 03-11-2001).]


Sherri Hamann

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #46 on: March 15, 2001, 03:33:00 PM »
Okay, I will show my lack of knowledge, but my desire for truth...

Song of Solomon says (2:1) I AM the rose of Sharon and the lily of the valleys; and Hosea 14:5 says I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon.

My first thoughts reading your posts about the pillars, with the lilys being ON them, was that a lily represents Christ, and the pillars then would be a foundational thing that holds up the teaching and ministry of HIM.  Which, then in my thinking, really relates VERY well to the whole sanctuary message, and emphasises how vital and central and foundational it is for our understanding the gospel message.

Okay, please don't laugh at my simple thoughts here, and PLEASE get on with the discussion!!  I'm studying and learning and anxious to hear more!!

Sherri


Liane H

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #47 on: March 15, 2001, 06:31:00 PM »
Hi Sherri:

Whatever David gives us, your statement above was just beautiful. What insight and understanding of the word of God.

I have been blessed.

Liane

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Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Richard Myers

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #48 on: March 15, 2001, 08:38:00 PM »
Amen, Sister Sherri.  Now, if we continue, the Lily is special in that it receives its nutrients through its roots that reach beyond the pollution in a stagnant pond, to reveal its purity in the flower. How does this tie in with the pillars, the sanctuary, and our Saviour?  :)

Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

WendyForsyth

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #49 on: March 15, 2001, 08:47:00 PM »
Sherri,

Don't ever think to be embarassed about your posting. Some of the most beautiful posts, as yours, come from God as He gives us/you insight that those who are more jaded may never have seen without you. I was blessed as well.

WendyF

I have no doubt that God considers you to be one of His friends; otherwise He would not trust you with so many crosses, sufferings and humiliations. Crosses are God's means of drawing souls closer to Himself.

Fenelon


DavidTBattler

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #50 on: March 16, 2001, 05:32:00 AM »
All I can say now Sherri is Amen!  You said the rest of my answer!  You hit the nail on the head!  Jesus says in Song: "I am the lily of the valleys."  Note, "valleys" is in the plural.

So, the sanctuary, to me, is all Jesus...In some way; He is in every part of the sanctuary, and it's services.  It is totally amazing!  But, this Word valley does have some interesting allusions for today's Christian as well, and that is what excites me so much about our church's sanctuary teachings.  They have relevance, and meaning for today's Christians, that is very practical.

I am preparing a short piece to put in the testimony thread about this.

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"...We believe that through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, we shall be saved..."  (Acts 15:11).

Your brother in Christ

David T. Battler


Richard Myers

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #51 on: March 16, 2001, 06:34:00 AM »
Sister Sherri, Jesus was very simple in the ways He taught and would have us do likewise. We who are "simple" will be enabled to see the loveliness of Jesus and then He will make us to see His love as revealed in the Word. As we draw close to Him, He will continue to bless us. Thank you for taking time to share. We look forward to more on how Jesus is teaching you, as you depend upon Him.  :)

Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Dugald T Lewis MD

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #52 on: March 16, 2001, 04:20:00 PM »
Dear Friends,

I recently heard from one preacher that Psalm 77 was the cry of Jesus on the cross where He made a reference to the Sanctuary and His prior role in heaven.

Anyone cares to read Psalm 77 and comment accordingly?

Sincerely
Dugald


Richard Myers

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #53 on: March 20, 2001, 06:50:00 AM »
Brother Harry has asked a good question for our Bible scholars: "Do you know of any provision for sacrifice for doing things they did know were wrong, except on the Day of Atonement?"

In the "daily service" was there a provision for sins that one knew were sins? This is to say; if I get angry with my wife, will Jesus forgive my sin since I know it is a sin? Yes He will. How was this taught in the daily service?

Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

DavidTBattler

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #54 on: March 28, 2001, 12:01:00 AM »
As soon as we get to the altar of incense;  we see taught a simple message.  

Sanctification, is in essence, justification, experienced day by day, moment by moment.  

According to Ex.30:7-10, an ordinary priest would offer incense here on a DAILY BASIS.

I don’t know about you other gentlemen @ TRO, but my wife and I can’t get along on just the yearly part of the sanctuary service...I yell at her more than once a year!  Is there any one of us who only does it once a year?      :)

Everything in the daily service, indicated our constant need, and Christ’s 24 hour availability.

“Tamid,” or  “daily,” is used in connection with the various aspects of the Tabernacle, and Temple sevices, approximately 50 times...

Some examples:

a)  the daily, morning and evening burnt  
   offering – Ex.29:38, 42
b) the candlestick, or lamp – Ex.27:20
c) the shew bread – Ex.25:30
d) the incense – Ex.30:8
e) the fire upon the altar – Lev.6:13
f) the fire and the cloud that hung over  
  the  sanctuary – Num.9:16
g) the musical service – 1 Chron.16:6, 37
h) etc., etc.

In every instance, “tamid” or “daily”  refers to aspects of the Tabernacle or Temple sevice that were used DAILY.  That’s why the lamps were never extinguished all at once, the fire on the altar of burnt offerings was never allowed to go out, the bread of the Presence was ALWAYS on the table, a lamp was offered every morning and every evening, and the incense was burned upon the altar of incense simultaneously.

Unwitting Sins:

Leaders – Lev.4:22-26
Common People – Lev.4:27-35

Intentional Sins:

Lev.5:1-5, 6:1-7


The daily service (and the yearly),  were/are intended to visibly emphasize the exciting Truth that God is present among His people, in a unique and intimate way; always wanting to be there for us when we go astray, intentionally, or unintentionally.

Remember, there is only ONE unpardonable sin.   :)

------------------
"...We believe that through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, we shall be saved..."  (Acts 15:11).

Your brother in Christ

David T. Battler

[This message has been edited by DavidTBattler (edited 03-28-2001).]


Liane H

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #55 on: March 28, 2001, 05:50:00 PM »
I was reading a book about the Sanctuary and came across a statement that says, that the breastplate the High Priest wore on the day of atonement was called "Breastplate of Judgment.

I had to read this for myself and found it starting in Exodus, Chapter 28, with verse 15. There from that point to verse 29 is a discription of this breastplate.  

But what touched me was verse 30. "And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim, and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before the LORD: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the LORD continually."

To think that Jesus at the cross carried our judgment upon his heart. And as our High Priest he carries our judgment upon His heart. I am trying to grab for words, but the feeling is deep. This is personal and upfront. This is as close to the center as one can get.

This judgment of all rest upon the heart of Jesus. We are not talking about 59 billion people that are here today, but far beyond that number since the fall of our first parents. That was all put upon Him, and he carries it upon His heart.

It is so simple to just think of our own little "sins" being the cause of his blood shed at the cross, but when we think of the big picture, it almost becomes overwhelming. It helps me to realize that I should do all that I can to make His joy complete. To do all that I can to carry my own cross that He has given me. For one that has given so much, what little that I can do, let me do it with all that I have. Because he carries my judgment upon His heart.

Liane    

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Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Richard Myers

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #56 on: March 28, 2001, 08:05:00 PM »
Brother Harry, I have been going through the posts here in this thread and  while I take things at face value, I think I recognize something here when you asked "Does anybody know why our pioneers decided that it was only repented/confessed sins that were atoned/covered?"

Then you state that "every sin anyone committed contaminated it [sanctuary], and that would include deliberate, unconfessed sins."  While we are happy to have you question what the church teaches, it seems that you are making some statements that are contrary to the teachings of the church and the Bible.

Do you believe that there is a judgment in heaven that will compare the character of all who have professed to love God to the Ten Commandments? It sounds like you may not believe this by some of the statements you have made.

Brother Harry, it appears that you believe something quite different than what Seventh-day Adventists have always taught and  believed. Are you saying that when the Saviour leaves the Most Holy Place and the judgement is finished that those who sin can still be saved?  Or are you saying that those who have died can have salvation in the judgment even with unconfessed sins on their account?  You have me interested in your line of questioning.   
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Harry Elliott

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #57 on: April 01, 2001, 10:00:00 AM »
Richard--

Thank you for considering my question so carefully.  Ellen White said something to the effect that we should let the pioneers teach us how they came to the conclusions that they did.  I haven’t had the opportunity to gather all the records possible recounting their discussions and reasoning.  We are told that her visions did not run ahead of their Bible study, so all this indicates to me that there must be some detailed original studies in existance somewhere. I’m looking for someone who has gone farther down the path she indicated than I have.

The pioneers decided that the wilderness sanctuary service teaches us the details of Christ’s priestly ministry on our behalf.  If the sanctuary service can teach us these details, they can teach non-Adventists who do not accept the authority of Ellen White, as well.  My experience has been that we have not been particulary persuasive in this regard--convincing Bible-believing Christians of our sanctuary concepts from the Bible alone.

The way to solve this problem should be to look at the questions through their eyes .  Make sense?
I’m not looking for DEFENSES of our positions so much as the original basis for their  their having been adopted in the first place.

So, working forward from the Bible, I start with relevant  passages such as,

“And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him ALL the iniquities of the children of Israel, and ALL of their transgressions in ALL their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness.”
Lev 16:21  (My capitals)

Please bear with me here.  Do you believe that this passage says that only PART of their sins and iniquities are atoned for here?  What am I missing?

I’m not saying that God treats our unrepented sins the same as our repented sins.  What I’m saying is that apparently we can’t use the Day of Atonement ritual  to show it.  So I wonder how--or if--our pioneers concluded that we can. Are these unreasonable questions, in your opinion?

--Harry  


Wendy

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #58 on: April 01, 2001, 12:20:00 PM »
Hi Harry~

The word atonement is not in that text. It says Aaron was CONFESSING ALL their sins. The text supports the doctrine that only confessed sins are transfered to the sanctuary(or in this case to the scape goat).

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WendyL ~ Maranatha!:)

WendyL ~ Maranatha!:)

Liane H

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #59 on: April 01, 2001, 03:15:00 PM »
Taking it one step further: What will be placed on Satan will be the sins of every person who has ever lived, confessed, repented of or NOT. He will carry the burden of all. We on the other hand carry only our own and any sins that we have caused others to do. But Satan will be held in judgment and passed sentence for ALL.

Jesus blood covers every sin, repented of or not, the High Priest confessed all the sins and placed them on the scapegoat. The High Priest has no way of knowing which had been repented of, all he could do was place ALL the sins on the scapegoat. It is only if that person lived to the next atonement is it know if his sins had been repented of. As it will be on the day of judgment, we will not know who is saved or who is lost. Only the Father knows.

Liane

Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.