Author Topic: The Hebrew Sanctuary  (Read 115341 times)

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Dorine

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #320 on: June 20, 2015, 04:17:15 PM »
This is a question I've pondered many times but have never done an indepth study. Who was mediating for sinful man when Jesus was here on earth? The scripture and SOP seem silent on the subject but that doesn't mean some clue is not there. In research this afternoon I read these following quotes  which shows Jesus in the sanctuary before He came to earth. We know there were sacrifices offered from the day Adam sinned. So there had to have been a record kept in heaven somewhere of all that was happening.

 . "To this end," He says, "was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth." . . . He was the embodiment of truth and holiness. He who had stood in the councils of God, who had dwelt in the innermost sanctuary of the Eternal, was speaking that whereof He knew....But the men who claimed to stand high in knowledge and spiritual understanding failed to comprehend His meaning; and that which had been evolved from eternity by the Father and the Son, they in their ignorance stood as critics to condemn.  {SD 26.2} 

    "Everyone that is of the truth," Christ declared, "heareth My voice." John 18:37. Having stood in the counsels of God, having dwelt in the everlasting heights of the sanctuary, all elements of truth were in Him and of Him. He was one with God. It means more than finite minds can comprehend to present in every missionary effort Christ and Him crucified. " CT 23

Maybe I'm taking these out of context. It's an interesting thought and one I'd like to know if there is an answer for. Maybe it's one of those things God has kept from us for now. I have some thoughts in my head but don't know how to express them. It's to do with the court yard services. It seems that the sacrifices before the earthly tabernacle was set up represented the work done in the court yard only.
I'm afraid I'm out of my element and just surmising now.

 
But this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press  toward the mark. Phil. 3:13,14

Richard Myers

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #321 on: June 20, 2015, 05:35:36 PM »
:)  Not knowing how to express them is one reason why we have a church. In an effort express these thoughts to others, we are forced to think things through  better....and there is safety in a multitude of counselors who love God and are not offended to meet with a difference of thought on a particular subject. Which is rare indeed. :(  I want to be shown where I am wrong. I will not let go of what  I believe until shown from Scripture I am wrong, but who would  want to stay wrong!

So, let's look at your thought on the courtyard. We know this for a certainty, that the work done in the courtyard represents the things done on this earth, ie. the altar of sacrifice represents the cross, and the  lamb sacrificed represented Christ who was crucified on this Earth, not in heaven.  The wash basin represented the need for the priests to be cleansed by the water of the Word before they entered into the  ministry of the Holy places.  We need to be careful for the types and shadows are very specific. For instance, the  priests represented Jesus, but Jesus did not have to be cleansed before entering the  heavenly  sanctuary. The types involved in the laver only represented a spiritual cleansing of the human before entering into ministry. "The laver was placed between the altar and the congregation, that before they came into the presence of God, in the sight of the congregation, they might wash their hands and their feet. What impression was this to make upon the people? It was to show them that every particle of dust must be put away before they could go into the presence of God; for he was so high and holy that unless they did comply with these conditions, death would follow. . . .  The Lord requires his ministers to be pure and holy, rightly to represent the principles of truth in their own lives, and by their example to bring others up upon a high level."

Now, you said something different in regards to not the  courtyard of the sanctuary or temple, but you spoke of what was done before there was an earthly sanctuary that was first constructed during the Exodus from Egypt. Let us think on the sacrifices offered prior to the sanctuary and its services. We have Bible instruction regarding these. The first such sacrifice mentioned is that made by Abel who was murdered by his brother who refused to offer the acceptable offering. Well....that certainly was only the service represented in the courtyard which was typifying the death of Christ for our sins.

Let me add a thought. Why was the sanctuary and its services given to Israel? I believe it was because that which had been handed down from father to son had been lost sight of. Israel had been in captivity and when they came out  of Egyptian slavery, they were little better than brute beasts. God took them from where they were. First, He had to show them their need of a Savior, that they could not keep His law from within.  So, He made a covenant, a very simple covenant impossible for them to keep. It was "obey and live" which all happily agreed to. They quickly found out how evil they were and that it was impossible to keep the covenant on their own, just as Saul (Paul) discovered when the depth of the commandment came to his understanding and he saw he was not keeping the law. He then discovered it was sin that dwelt in him that was the problem. Like the Israelites at Sinai, he had no power to keep the law in and of himself. 

With  that covenant came the ceremonial law which was also a "law" that they must keep. But, in keeping that law, they were to learn about Christ and the plan  of salvation.  They were not saved by keeping either the ceremonial law of the ten commandments, but by doing the ceremonial law, they would  behold Jesus and by beholding Him become changed, converted.

So, I am stating a truth, Dorine, that because of their reduction to little more than brute beasts due to slavery, they needed the additional  instruction on the plan of salvation. What does this  say about the service before the sanctuary? Well...we must go back to the time prior to Egypt when the family worship was led by the priest of the family. What I believe was initially given to man was all the instruction necessary to be reconciled to God. The reason why Abel made sacrifice was not because it was the first one to be made, no, his father  had made sacrifices before even though the  Bible does not reveal this. It would be something if the God of heaven withheld from Adam the plan  of salvation which was based upon grace, the suffering and  death of God's dear Son because of sin, the first being Eve's. In other words Abel did not kill the first lamb. Jesus probably did in order to provide clothing for Adam and Eve. But, Adam would have been the first human to kill an innocent lamb.

Dorine, do you agree? And if so, then  tell me why God asked him do so and what was the response by Adam as he felt the warm blood running through his fingers?  In order to better understand our initial question,  we  must begin at the beginning with the light we have been given. I think we are on solid  ground at this point. Share where you may disagree. May God grant us His  Spirit as we study this important subject, for His honor and glory.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Dorine

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #322 on: June 20, 2015, 07:23:48 PM »
The topic of the sanctuary has been a much loved subject for me. I should know and understand it much better than I do for the time I have spent over the years studying it.
I want to be shown where I am wrong. I will not let go of what  I believe until shown from Scripture I am wrong, but who would  want to stay wrong!
Amen! I totally agree.

 So, let's look at your thought on the courtyard. We know this for a certainty, that the work done in the courtyard represents the things done on this earth, ie. the altar of sacrifice represents the cross, and the  lamb sacrificed represented Christ who was crucified on this Earth, not in heaven.  The wash basin represented the need for the priests to be cleansed by the water of the Word before they entered into the  ministry of the Holy places.  We need to be careful for the types and shadows are very specific. For instance, the  priests represented Jesus, but Jesus did not have to be cleansed before entering the  heavenly  sanctuary. The types involved in the laver only represented a spiritual cleansing of the human before entering into ministry. "The laver was placed between the altar and the congregation, that before they came into the presence of God, in the sight of the congregation, they might wash their hands and their feet. What impression was this to make upon the people? It was to show them that every particle of dust must be put away before they could go into the presence of God; for he was so high and holy that unless they did comply with these conditions, death would follow. . . .  The Lord requires his ministers to be pure and holy, rightly to represent the principles of truth in their own lives, and by their example to bring others up upon a high level."
Yes I do understand that the types and shadows are very specific and that is why in attempting to answer the original question my thoughts were not coming together like I wanted. 
 
 Now, you said something different in regards to not the  courtyard of the sanctuary or temple, but you spoke of what was done before there was an earthly sanctuary that was first constructed during the Exodus from Egypt. Let us think on the sacrifices offered prior to the sanctuary and its services. We have Bible instruction regarding these. The first such sacrifice mentioned is that made by Abel who was murdered by his brother who refused to offer the acceptable offering. Well....that certainly was only the service represented in the courtyard which was typifying the death of Christ for our sins.
 
 Let me add a thought. Why was the sanctuary and its services given to Israel? I believe it was because that which had been handed down from father to son had been lost sight of. Israel had been in captivity and when they came out  of Egyptian slavery, they were little better than brute beasts. God took them from where they were. First, He had to show them their need of a Savior, that they could not keep His law from within.  So, He made a covenant, a very simple covenant impossible for them to keep. It was "obey and live" which all happily agreed to. They quickly found out how evil they were and that it was impossible to keep the covenant on their own, just as Saul (Paul) discovered when the depth of the commandment came to his understanding and he saw he was not keeping the law. He then discovered it was sin that dwelt in him that was the problem. Like the Israelites at Sinai, he had no power to keep the law in and of himself. 
The plan of salvation in Pablum form. Kindergarten instruction. This gives me a glimpse of the magnitude of Godís love and Grace.
 
 With  that covenant came the ceremonial law which was also a "law" that they must keep. But, in keeping that law, they were to learn about Christ and the plan  of salvation.  They were not saved by keeping either the ceremonial law of the ten commandments, but by doing the ceremonial law, they would  behold Jesus and by beholding Him become changed, converted.
 
 So, I am stating a truth, Dorine, that because of their reduction to little more than brute beasts due to slavery, they needed the additional  instruction on the plan of salvation. What does this  say about the service before the sanctuary? Well...we must go back to the time prior to Egypt when the family worship was led by the priest of the family. What I believe was initially given to man was all the instruction necessary to be reconciled to God. The reason why Abel made sacrifice was not because it was the first one to be made, no, his father  had made sacrifices before even though the  Bible does not reveal this. It would be something if the God of heaven withheld from Adam the plan  of salvation which was based upon grace, the suffering and  death of God's dear Son because of sin, the first being Eve's. In other words Abel did not kill the first lamb. Jesus probably did in order to provide clothing for Adam and Eve. But, Adam would have been the first human to kill an innocent lamb.
 
 Dorine, do you agree? And if so, then  tell me why God asked him do so and what was the response by Adam as he felt the warm blood running through his fingers?  In order to better understand our initial question,  we  must begin at the beginning with the light we have been given. I think we are on solid  ground at this point. Share where you may disagree. May God grant us His  Spirit as we study this important subject, for His honor and glory.
Adam must understand the consequences of sin and that because of his sin Christ must die. By placing his hands on the animal, confessing his sins and then slaying the innocent lamb which represented Christ he was reminded again and again that it was only through the death of Christ that he will have a second chance. I would imagine that as the blood flowed from the animal his heart was wrung with torment, anguish and unspeakable regret for that blood represented the blood of Christ that would be shed for him. At the same time it was a promise to him that would bring peace and hope to his heart.
I have no disagreement with anything you have shared. I did find your comment interesting  about Jesus being the one to kill the first sacrifice. I have never pictured that. I always imagined him asking Adam to bring a lamb to the gate of the garden and explaining what to do but that Adam did the actual slaying. Not sure where that picture came from. Look forward to learning and discussing more.


 
But this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press  toward the mark. Phil. 3:13,14

Richard Myers

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #323 on: June 20, 2015, 08:04:05 PM »
Amen!  Adam had never seen anything die until the first leaf fell. How sad for  him to begin to see the results of his sin. Imagine how awful it was to be dressed in the skin of an animal he had named!!!  Poor Adam. Sin is horrendous to one who has known holiness. Is it horrendous to us yet? If we continue to behold Jesus, it will become horrendous.

Here is the statement regarding God clothing them: "Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:     Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.  So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."

Dorine, notice the timing. "the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:" Just after providing coats of skins, they were directed out of the garden. There was no time delay in  removing them from the garden. Thus, it appears that God provided the skins and thus, He apparently had to kill the animals for their skins. How very sad. Maybe He spoke them into existence. It is not important, only to understand that to kill an animal is not a nice thing to do for one who is holy and undefiled. And, it was not pleasant for one who cried over a dead leaf.

This brings us to the reason why the sacrifice of a living animal was chosen by God to reveal His love. We are setting the stage to go beyond the foundation, the altar of sacrifice that was found in the courtyard of the sanctuary and was the main ceremony in the family worship prior to the sanctuary, as we understand.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Dorine

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #324 on: June 21, 2015, 04:27:51 AM »
That quote makes it plain that the sacrifice was made before they were sent from the garden. It has been plaguing my mind as I picture what they must have experienced while they wore those garments. We read these statements over a life time and they become just words after awhile and the deep significance dimmed if we are not careful.

Keep it coming. I thrill at the opportunity to be reminded and learn more of God's marvelous plan of salvation for each of us. From beginning to end.

I like it when you ask questions. It makes me think for myself.
But this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press  toward the mark. Phil. 3:13,14

Richard Myers

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #325 on: June 21, 2015, 07:42:57 AM »
Dorine, I have nothing else. This is new ground for me. We're in this together. Hopefully others will join us. What are your thoughts at this point?
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

ejclark

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #326 on: June 21, 2015, 10:44:14 AM »
Here is a quote from Patriarch and Prophets that might shed some more light. I will interject my thoughts in a different color in between the sentences.

The sacrificial offerings were ordained by God to be to man a perpetual reminder and a penitential acknowledgment of his sin and a confession of his faith in the promised Redeemer. They were intended to impress upon the fallen race the solemn truth that it was sin that caused death.

The thought was made previously that this first method of sacrifice was possibly the Kindergarten level of the sacrificial system and then the system given to Moses was more advanced. My opinion is that because man had the ability to have a deeper grasp on things in Adam's day, they were able to grasp deeper meanings with less representative emblems. Kind of like today, we have the "Lord's Supper" that replaced the sacrificial system that teaches the same lessons. But then of course we have the hind sight of the full sacrificial system to study and lean on as well. I believe it's possible there were a few more details in the sacrificial practice of Adam and Able that Moses didn't mention. Or maybe he did mention them and we don't notice them.

To Adam, the offering of the first sacrifice was a most painful ceremony. His hand must be raised to take life, which only God could give. It was the first time he had ever witnessed death, and he knew that had he been obedient to God, there would have been no death of man or beast. As he slew the innocent victim, he trembled at the thought that his sin must shed the blood of the spotless Lamb of God.

I believe this statement makes clear that it was Adam who killed the very first lamb for his and Eve's sins. And as there was a priest and high priest in the system given Moses, I believe Jesus was high priest for Adam and prepared the skins for he and Eve to wear from that first sacrifice. I also believe the skins they wore when they left Eden were white. That is pure speculation of course, but it would parallel what the Bible teaches about the lamb/Lamb having to be spotless and perfect.

This scene gave him a deeper and more vivid sense of the greatness of his transgression, which nothing but the death of God's dear Son could expiate. And he marveled at the infinite goodness that would give such a ransom to save the guilty. A star of hope illumined the dark and terrible future and relieved it of its utter desolation.  {PP 68.1} 

I believe Adam and Eve and Able had a much deeper understanding of the sanctuary message and sacrificial system than we often give them credit for.

Richard Myers

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #327 on: June 21, 2015, 10:50:55 AM »
Amen, ej. Thanks for sharing.  I had already written the following and when I went to post it, saw your post. My thoughts are similar to yours.

Something that many do not seem to understand is that God revealed to Adam what the killed lamb represented. Just because the priests in Israel had perverted this truth does not mean that instructions were not given as to what the representations meant. Adam understood that the blood that ran through his fingers represented the blood of the Son of God who would one day sacrifice Himself to provide for Adam's redemption. Do we have anything that reveals Adam knew God had made a provision of his redemption?

Here is a statement that reveals his son knew that the lamb represented Jesus as his Savior from sin.

"The Pharisee and the publican represent two great classes into which those who come to worship God are divided. Their first two representatives are found in the first two children that were born into the world. Cain thought himself righteous, and he came to God with a thank offering only. He made no confession of sin, and acknowledged no need of mercy. But Abel came with the blood that pointed to the Lamb of God. He came as a sinner, confessing himself lost; his only hope was the unmerited love of God. The Lord had respect to his offering, but to Cain and his offering He had not respect. The sense of need, the recognition of our poverty and sin, is the very first condition of acceptance with God. "Blessed are the poor in spirit; for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:3.  COL 152.


Abel understood what Saul (Paul) did not before he was converted. Saul the Pharisee thought his obedience earned him a spot in heaven. Then, when he learned that outward obedience was not good enough, he had no idea how to keep the commandments. He was under condemnation and did not know God had provided grace to save the sinner from sin. He thought Jesus an imposter. He only knew of the one God in heaven, but not of His dear Son who had already given His  life that Saul might live. Abel understood what Saul did not, that is why he made a blood sacrifice as we read.

Dorine, it seems to me that God gave as much as was necessary for the sinner to be saved. Because Israel was reduced to almost total ignorance of a Savior and had not been making sacrifices for hundreds of years, it was necessary to give them detailed explanations of the plan of salvation. Thus the sanctuary and its services. But, Adam and his sons did not require this. They were not as brute beasts, to the contrary, they did not need to have things written down since they had not lost their high degree of intelligence. Pride got the better of Cain, he would not acknowledge his need of Jesus, so he would not make the proper sacrifice as did Abel. The sacrifices were to bring the sinner to Christ, to reconcile him with God. The whole point was to win the heart of the sinner through a knowledge of God's great love for the sinner. Adam understood, Abel understood, Seth understood, as did Enoch and Noah. Cain was left alive so that we would understand where sin leads to, the destruction of every living thing on the earth except the eight that were on the  ark.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Richard Myers

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #328 on: June 21, 2015, 11:02:21 AM »
Here's a thought that brings us back to our intent to better understand how Jesus related to sinners prior to His incarnation.

Did Enoch need to know about the Day of Atonement, or the second coming, or the 1260 days? Did he need to understand that God hears our prayers, did he need to understand all the types and shadows that taught such things, or did he understand these basic truths necessary for his salvation? It seems that the light continues to get brighter as times move forward, and it was not necessary for Enoch to understand the purpose of the 144,000. The important things for Enoch, the present truth of his time was different than for us today. God has  always wanted the whole heart. Enoch gave Jesus his whole heart as did Adam, Abel, Seth, and Noah. They all benefited from understanding what the everlasting covenant promised and how very expensive was the cost.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Dorine

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #329 on: June 21, 2015, 03:48:48 PM »
Thanks for your comment ej. So my thoughts were not totally off base.  :-\ The comment I made about the kindergarten instruction was in connection with the children of Israel not the early sacrifices. The early patriarchs had the kind of primitive godliness that we read about those at the very end having just before Jesus comes.

Richard I like your summary. Some things are just not important for us to know at least for now. I do know that we are counselled to thoroughly study the sanctuary service system so that we will be grounded firmly in the truth and not deceived by some false gospel that is being presented by so many today. I have a book by Stephen Haskell 1914 called "The Cross and It's Shadow". It's falling apart but it is a treaure of information.
Ps. 77:13 says "They way O God, is in the Sanctuary." Such a short sentence but a wealth of meaning.


But this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press  toward the mark. Phil. 3:13,14

Richard Myers

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #330 on: June 22, 2015, 07:24:11 AM »
I do know that we are counseled to thoroughly study the sanctuary service system so that we will be grounded firmly in the truth and not deceived by some false gospel that is being presented by so many today.

Amen, Dorine!!  There is other important light for our present generation in the sanctuary, but none as important as the gospel. And, yes, understanding the sanctuary and its services confirms the true gospel message and points out the many false gospels being preached from our pulpits and published in our periodicals and books. The Day of Atonement is clearly presented in the sanctuary and if we understand it, then we would see that many in responsible positions in our church are leading the flock astray by rejecting the investigative judgment. It reveals that while man is saved by grace, he will be judged by the law. In other words, we are saved by grace, and when we are in a saved state, our character will reveal it. Thus, in the judgment it will be seen who loves God supremely by their actions, thoughts, words, and motives which have all been recorded. Man will be judged by his works. How many today teach otherwise? Too many!

Here we have a very good measure whereby we can understand who it is that is teaching truth and who is not.

Let's return to our question about the ministry of Christ prior to His incarnation.  Today, we know that we have a living High Priest who is walking with us daily. Do we understand that King David had a living Savior also? As did Adam and Enoch? Was not the  father of the home a representative of Christ? Was that representation to teach Adam that Jesus was ministering to Him day by day, moment by moment? I don't think we have been told in what manner Adam could envision this. But, King David could. He had the sanctuary as a very detailed blueprint so that he could understand. Could David know Jesus was hearing his prayers then and there? If so, how did he know this? Then the  ceremonies spoke of the time prior to Jesus' death? I think so. Then, that brings us back to our initial question. We know that the bread in the  Holy Place represented the Word of God. We know that the priests baking it fresh weekly was to teach that God gives us fresh truth as we need it. This was not to be something in the future for David, but  it was to be a living reality for his generation, and those going back to Moses.

In other words, was not the sanctuary and its services for Israel back then, not just for those who would come after His death? I am interested in this so that we can see that those living before the cross had a living Savior ministering to them, and had the Holy Spirit. Was Jesus in the heavenly sanctuary before His incarnation?  Or did He first enter it after His ascension?
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Dorine

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #331 on: June 22, 2015, 08:03:14 AM »
It seems that the sanctuary in heaven is the hub of everything and always has been. The difference I am beginning to see is that His ministry in the heavenly sanctuary before His first coming was a faith experience by those who were looking forward to His crucifixion (with no guarantee they would ever see eternity) and after the cross it became a guaranteed reality for those who love and obey Him because now Jesus presented His own blood on our behalf.  Is there any merit to this reasoning?
But this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press  toward the mark. Phil. 3:13,14

Richard Myers

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #332 on: June 27, 2015, 10:19:15 AM »
Amen, Doreen.  The blood of Christ ratified the everlasting covenant we read in Gen. 3:15. "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

Jesus was the Ladder connecting heaven and Earth for those living before the cross, so He was ministering to them. It appears He was doing so in the temple in heaven.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.