Author Topic: The Hebrew Sanctuary  (Read 193269 times)

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Dugald T Lewis MD

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #140 on: May 12, 2001, 12:36:00 PM »
Dear Harry,

Your statement; "I concluded that the KJV may be misleading when it says that the trespass offering is to be eaten by the priests in “the holy place”, since the KJV term for the second apartment is “the holy place”. My REB does a better job"


Woudl you be kind enough to explain this  further? I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here.


Sincerely
Dugald


Clive Nevell

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #141 on: May 12, 2001, 01:36:00 PM »
I grew up in Cooranbong and heard much about the so called new theology and listened to Des Ford many times. It was impossible not to be influenced by him. As time went by I had to find out the answers to his questions, it took a long time for me to get answers as most ministers were not keen to talk about the sanctuary and 1844. Leaving the church and coming back after a ten year break the same questions were still there. The Sanctuary and 1844, I got to the point where I was very discouraged about it all and then I was at "Big Camp" and at the ABC seen a book that caught my attention. "1844 Made Simple" by Clifford Goldstein. He uses the Bible and the Bible only as his guide and shows very clearly how it all fits together. It gave me clear understanding of the issues and how we can see them in a clear light. The book is about 100 pages  and is full of what the Bible says about Sanctuary and 1844. I began to understand the truth that for so many years had been only a big shadow hanging over our church. My humble suggestion is for all to go and read his book and then I am sure many of the doubts about this truth will be gone.
I am still learning but it has been a real blessing to me.
Clive

Richard Myers

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #142 on: May 12, 2001, 06:32:00 PM »
Brother Harry, again I ask you if the outer court does not represent the earth where Jesus was crucified, what does it represent in heaven?

Richard

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DavidTBattler

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #143 on: May 13, 2001, 07:37:00 AM »
Quote by brother Harry

"I consider the “real” Bible to be the thoughts that its writers were tryiing to convey to us. The original Hebrew and Greek came closest to those thoughts. Since most of us cannot read the original languages,we are dependent on translations.

I do not believe any translation is inspired. Some treat the KJV as inspired. I have no interest in persuading them otherwise. I believe this subject is thoroughly discussed in the SDA Bible Commentary."

Hello Harry

Thanks for your clarifications.  Of course, it has generated more questions; but first, I need to ask:

Where in the SDA-BC could I find this discussion you are referring to?  I would like to check it out.   :)

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Allan F

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #144 on: May 13, 2001, 01:40:00 PM »
Hello brother Herbert,

Thank you for your postings. Concerning my four points from Acts ch. 3, it was not my intention to link them with the sanctuary service. My primary intention was to make a comparision between adventism and a common view among christians regarding important biblical events. Specially, I wanted to show that mans destiny and salvation is decided before the coming of Jesus, and not after his arrival which is tought in some of the christian churches. This biblical truth we may also learn from the order of the jewish feasts. The Day of Atonement came prior to the Feast of Tabernacles (symbolizes heaven, which is an anti type of the last and happiest event of the jewish year). I am sorry that I did not make my thoughts and intentions clearer.

Allan F


M.A. Crawford

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #145 on: May 14, 2001, 06:58:00 AM »
Bro. Elliott, permit me to briefly comment on a couple of statements you made in your post dated 05-05-2001 at 03:23 PM:

1. "I consider the 'real' Bible to be the thoughts that its writers were trying to convey to us. The original Hebrew and Greek came closest to those thoughts. Since most of us cannot read the original languages, we are dependent on translations."

It is true that most of us cannot read the Bible in the original Hebrew and Greek languages, but the Seventh-day Adventist Church has outstanding Hebrew and Greek scholars WHO CAN. And they have provided us with what I believe to be--not necessarily perfect--but, highly competent and reliable expositions on the same of which I accept as faithful and in keeping with the original thoughts and intentions of the writers.

2. "I do not believe any translation is inspired. Some treat the KJV as inspired...."

It also appears to be true that there are, in some, various disagreements and discrepencies from Bible translation to Bible translation in certain words, phrases, and dates. But I very firmly believe that the GREAT PRINCIPLES OF SALVATION that are found in the King James Version ARE SUFFICIENT to provide us with ENOUGH that will lead to eternal life, IF one is willing to follow those principles.

The work of the salvation of souls IS GOD'S WORK and not man's. As a result, I cannot be convinced that God is so inept and/or absentminded that He would permit a "translation" of His Holy Word to thwart or interfere with that work.

M.A.        

M.A.

Harry Elliott

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #146 on: May 14, 2001, 09:35:00 AM »
Hi Dugald--

I stumbled upon this text as a result of this thread.

“And the remainder thereof shall Aaron and his sons eat:  with unleavened bread shall it be EATEN in the HOLY PLACE: in the court of the tabernacle of the congregation they shall eat it.” (Lev 6:16, KJV)

“Holy place” is the KJV term for what we usually call the “Most Holy Place”.  Since Richard was being strict with the wording, I was wondering if he understood this to mean that  the leftovers from the offering were eaten in both the Most Holy Place and in the courtyard.

There’s a similar problem in the instructions for the Day of Atonement, regarding the first  act of  the High Priest :

“Thus shall Aaron come into the holy place: with a young bullock for a sin offering, and a ram for a burnt offering.”

Our pioneers seem to have overlooked these two animals altogether, in their construction of the antitype.  But the words seem to say that the High Priest’s first entry into the Most Holy Place on the Day of Atonement was with the special burnt offering victims.

In any event, the match between the Hebrew service and our traditional concept of Jesus’ fulfillment of it doesn't appear as close as I used to think.

--Harry


Harry Elliott

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #147 on: May 14, 2001, 09:46:00 AM »
Hi Richard--

What does the courtyard represent?  If the Bible tells us the answer to that, I haven’t found it yet.
If the Bible doesn’t say, I’m content not to know.  

What the Bible DOES tell us, is that the High Priest cleansed the courtyard altar the same way he cleansed the Most Holy Place, BEFORE he removed his linen vestment.  That doesn’t  match up well with the cleansing of the earth with fire a thousand years AFTER the antitypical Day of Atonement ends, does it?

--Harry


Harry Elliott

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #148 on: May 14, 2001, 10:06:00 AM »
Hi Liane--

There’s certainly a wide spectrum within Adventism regarding the nature of Ellen White’s writings and their authority vis-a-vis the Scriptures. I think the best way to reduce the differences is for everyone (who cares) to become as familiar with the evidence as possible.  This isn’t the thread for that discussion, but I think it’s been pretty well established that she borrowed the words of others quite extensively.

Suffice it to say, she stated somewhere that if God’s people had studied the Scriptures properly, their would have been no need for her ministry.  Unfortunately, many have used her writings as a substitute for deep Bible study.  I did so, myself, for scores of years.

I believe that studying the Bible independent of her writings does NOT diminish them.  :)

--Harry  


Harry Elliott

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #149 on: May 14, 2001, 10:18:00 AM »
Hi David--

In answer to your question:

There is an excellent discussion of variant readings in Bible manuscripts, due to copiest’s errors etc., on pages 140-146 of Volume 5 of the SDA Bible Commentary.

Very enlightening.

--Harry


jherbertthompson

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #150 on: May 14, 2001, 10:22:00 AM »
Thank you Brother's Allan & Myers.  In some ways this subject remains for me about as clear as mud...As with a number of subjects revolving about SDA Bible Doc's; the more I study, the more I want to 'know'; the more I want to learn, the more I realize I need to know 'first' before I may ever be able to understand...It really seems to be a vicious circle... :)

I do not really wish to confuse this issue.  I need more time to think it over.  However, in this past weeks SS Class, our teacher made the comparison that, all 'sacrifices' were 'burnt' AFTER they had died.  The 'blood' being representative of the 'life' being 'poured out for the justification of the sinner'.  I have no trouble with that.  It was, however, suggested that the final demise of 'sinners' must preclude of any life 'left in them'.  Does this make any sense to any one out there.  And if so, would someone please explain?

This is surely 'wonderful new' that the 'Latter Rain' is poured out on God's people in such a way as to [prepare them for what is soon to come?] or, [present a group here on earth who will become the 'harvester's of the field'?]...or what?

Thanks to all for your time and considerate responses to my particularly simple questions.

Sincerely you brother in Christ.


Wendy

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #151 on: May 14, 2001, 04:10:00 PM »
Hi jht  :)

quote
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It was, however, suggested that the final demise of 'sinners' must preclude of any life 'left in them'. Does this make any sense to any one out there. And if so, would someone please explain?
-----------------------------------

Are they suggesting that sinners are dead before they are burned or are they suggesting that all spiritual life has gone out of them before they are burned?

In either case the sacrifice of the animal doesn't represent the death of the sinner. The animals killed represented Jesus and His death on our behalf. Now the fat in the animal did represent sin generally and there was a part of the service during the Day of Atonement where the fat of the sin offering was burned on the alter Lev.16:25. This could be symbolic of the purification of the earth from sin by fire.

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WendyL ~ Maranatha!:)

WendyL ~ Maranatha!:)

Allan F

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #152 on: May 15, 2001, 04:05:00 AM »
Hello brother Harry

I have read through most of your postings on this thread in order for me to understand your view concerning "The Day of Atonement", its antitype and in what ways this relate to us.

So far I have found these words to be the most useful in describing your view:

"Does he [Jesus] perform an investigative judgment on the antitypical Day of Atonement? Maybe so, but that’s speculation, isn’t it? I mean, the Bible doesn’t say that typical High Priest did that."

I am sure you agree with me that all the main jewish feasts have an anti type in the christian era and that they teaches the main truths that God wanted the Jews to understand and also us as christians to understand. I beleive that it would be good for the discussion if you would explain your view about the Day of Atonement more completely to us (if you can). What main truths do you beleive that God wants to teach us through "The Day of Atonement" and its anti type?

Looking forward to your answer.

Allan F


Harry Elliott

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #153 on: May 17, 2001, 09:45:00 AM »
Hi Allan--

For some time now, I’ve been trying to separate my theology into two categories:

1) What the Bible plainly says.  And

2) Accumulated traditions about what the Bible means.

To my chagrin, I find that most of what I have learned--as a lifelong Adventist, by the way--falls into category 2.

Paul says that the law, which in his vocabulary included the sanctuary service, was a custodian for the Hebrew nation until the coming of the Promised Seed.  I haven’t found any evidence in the Bible that the sanctuary service taught them much of anything.   :)

As to the Day of Atonement, Lev 16 says that it was to cleanse the sanctuary of ALL of the sins and sinfulness it had accumulated by being physically located in their midst.  So I guess that ‘s what I believe.  I simply don’t find anywhere in the Bible where it says that sprinkling blood is a prophecy of investigative judgment.  So I put that squarely in category 2.

--Harry

 


Richard Myers

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #154 on: May 17, 2001, 04:58:00 PM »
Brother Harry, it will indeed be hard for you to enter into our discussion of the Hebrew Sanctuary since you think of the Spirit of Prophecy as "tradition". We do not need the Spirit of Prophecy to reveal the meaning of much of the sanctuary service. A deep study of the Bible under the leading of the Holy Spirit reveals much. As Sister Claudia has pointed out in the Worship forum, you are confusing matters and leading minds away from the truth that the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy teach. Your ideas are contrary to the teachings of the church.

Let me address your last post in which you said "I haven’t found any evidence in the Bible that the sanctuary service taught them much of anything." It is impossible for you to enlighten anyone here with your lack of understanding. I am sorry to be so blunt, but by your own admission you have not found any truth in the sanctuary service. Yet, it is the center of the Bible, the sacrificial system goes back to Adam then forward to the death of the "Lamb of God", Jesus Christ. The slaying of the animals was a shadow of the death of Christ for our sins.  It is unmistakable in the Bible. Jesus took our sins upon Himself and then suffered the consequence, while we were yet sinners. This is the teaching in the Hebrew sanctuary.

You have made statements that could lead others to believe that the teachings in the church are based upon tradition rather than the Bible. This is not true. Please refrain from such remarks. We have allowed you to continue for awhile, but now with these statements becoming more bold, we cannot allow you to continue bringing reproach upon the truth.

Thank you for your understanding.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Liane H

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #155 on: May 17, 2001, 09:51:00 PM »
Dear Harry:

One of the greatest gifts the church has been given is the Spirit of Prophecy. Without the Sanctuary Message there would have not been a SDA Church.

Ellen G. White stated that if the people had studied the scriptures as they should have there would not have been a need for the Spirit of Prophecy. But the people did NOT study as they should. God realizing that many would have been lost, called out a young girl to reveal His Character through the pen of inspiration. That on the day of judgement none could say that God did not do everything that could be done.

This is not to say that the Cross was not all that our Lord and Saviour did do was not enough, it most certainly was. It is not in the plan of salvation that I speak of, but in the manner in which the plan of salvation has been revealed to the world and what our God was doing about sin. The way to God is through the Sanctuary and we have been blessed with this precious knowledge and the understanding of salvation in a way that reaches beyond any other denominations.

Psalm 77:13

"Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary."

Everything that we have learned of salvation comes from the scriptures through the revelation of the Sanctuary since 1844.

Many denominations speak of salvation and the Cross, but have missed the mark where it truly has been revealed. The Sanctuary teaches us about the blood of Jesus. It was the blood going into the sanctuary on a daily bases due to our sins that required on the Day of Atonement with placing of the sins on the live goat to be taken out.

It is this live goat, which is represented as Satan and the end of the world that the sins will be placed on him. It is the revealing of what happened to this live goat on the day of atonement will happen again.

We must always remember the words spoken of by Ellen G. White concerning her writings. It was by scriptures that they learned of these precious truths. Only when after much study that an understanding was not clear that she would be brought into vision for the clarity of it. These visions would clear the minds of those in study and bring the light that was being missed, but it was the scriptures themselves that revealed the hidden gems.

I am always reminded whenever I read my Bible of the comma put in the wrong place by man, not by God, regarding the thief on the cross next to Jesus and what our Lord said to him. The words inspired by God to the writers are there in plain sight, but it is man who changes the meanings to fit their preconcieved ideas.    

I grieve at the thought of how many people have been lost because they had been told of an eternal burning hell. Denied of the true character of God and His mercy.

I am also reminded that what I say and how I say it can have eternal effects on the lives of others. These people who read what I write are my responsibility. God will hold me in account for my actions or lack of for other souls. My God has made me realize this.

Liane

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Liane H

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #156 on: May 19, 2001, 08:06:00 AM »
Hi Harry:

It has always amazed me in reading the Word that we learn each time a new insight or revelation that God brings to our attention.

Sometimes He brings people into our lives that causes us to dig even deeper than we may have done before, for gems that we never would have seen or understood before.

This is what I have come to understand. This synopisis is the outgrowth of this study that we have been following for some time now in this topic of the Hebrew Sanctuary.  

There are many steps the earthly High Priest had to do. Because he as such, as the rest of us are sinners need of a Saviour. Therefore there were procedures that the earthly High Priest had to follow in order to be able to be a representative of the children of Israel. These steps of washing, special garments to wear, of cleansing and atonement was only necessary for the earthly High Priest. For he had to be free from sin in order to be the role as the representative for the congregation. This process was the offering of the bullock which represented in the blood of Jesus.

In this process there is no counterpart for Jesus as the High Priest, but only as our Saviour is it revealed as the sin offering of the bullock for the sins of the earthly High Priest and his own household.

But in the similarities we see several significant works that took place on the Day of Atonement.

1. Both acted as the representatives of the people of their sins and the offering of the blood for the sins of the congregations. Just as the earthly High Priest acted as the representative of the Children of Israel, so Jesus acts as the representative of the whole world as the second Adam.

2. It is in verse 15 of Leviticus that Jesus as the High Priest and as the goat can be seen. Here Jesus not only has a counterpart as the High Priest, but as the sin offering. Both Jesus and the earthly representatives are doing the work of the blood for sin offering of the people. It is seen that Jesus has a duel role.

3. We also see the counterparts of both in the atonement (purging) of the sins of the cleansing of the Sanctuary starting with the Most Holy Place, the Holy Place and in the courtyard.

4. In verse 20 it is stated "And he hath made an end of the reconciling." It is noted here that Jesus has not left the Most Holy Place, so therefore the process of the Holy Place and the Courtyard has not been fulfilled.
The world has not yet come to its end.

5. But when it does, we will see Jesus come out of the Most Holy Place to finish the work of reconciliation by the offering of the blood in the Holy Place and the Altar in the courtyard.

6. When this has been done, Jesus as the  High Priest will place his hands on the head of the live goat/Satan and confess the iniquites, all their transgressions in all the sins of the people. Just as the earthly High Preist did this with the live goat, so will Jesus do with Satan at the end of the earth.      

7. Just as the live goat was sent into the wilderness to die, which more than likely took many days, so will Satan be sent to the abyss of the earth for a 1000 years awaiting for the time of his death. Who will be the fit man is my guess, Gabriel.

8. When we get to verse 23 and part of 24, then again there is no counterpart of the earthly High Priest with Jesus.  

9. But I do see something in the end part of verse 24 and 25. But that is for futher study and will be brought forth sometime later this week.

In the big picture just as in the earthly daily, the sins of the people were brought into the Holy Place. Just as our sins have been brought into the heavenly Holy Place since the fall of Adam.

Just as on the Day of Atonement once a year the earthly High Priest brought the sin offering into the Most Holy Place, Jesus as our High Priest is now making atonement (purging) the sin offering for the sins of the people.

This is where we are at right now in the course of the heavenly work of Jesus. To go beyond this is to step into the future. A future work of Jesus yet to be completed in the work of the Sanctuary.

Liane
 

Liane, the Zoo Mama
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jherbertthompson

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #157 on: May 28, 2001, 03:43:00 PM »
Hello all!  I hope that this topic has not condluded its search of the truth.  I certainly have not...

Allen:  I'm not at all sure of your "comparision between adventism and a common view among christians" as you put it...maybe this could be linked to a newbys lack of understanding of the subject?  At-any-rate, verses 19-21 seem to speak particularly to your "comparision(s)?"...

I think in a general sort of way, my question results from a limited understanding of the phrase, 'restitution of all things'.  This restitution would consequentially, be accounted for in the 'Day of Atonement'...If so, how does the dual 'Atonement' of Christ at the cross; and, Christ ministering to us in the Holy of Holies, lend to this understanding?

Wendy:  The illistration which was being made in the SS Class was this:  It was not the 'sin offering' itself.  The issue was in relation to Romans 1: 18-28...vs. 24,26,28 in particular.  This of course is that God 'turned away' from the sinner...Because God is 'the sustainer of life', after 'life' has been extracted, than only what is left will be burnt...Doesn't make sense to me, and this teacher holds his ground regarding the issue without a real explination as to how he has come up against it...

I am at this point somewhat limited to my access to the internet, as my driver's license has been suspended due to my disability having no computer at home...

For this reason, I probably won't be back to the University until Wednesday...

Hope to hear from you by then...

Your brother in Christ...  


Richard Myers

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #158 on: May 28, 2001, 06:54:00 PM »
Brother Herbert, while you awaiting some replies to your questions I want to encourage you that we have just begun. The Sanctuary study is very broad and very deep.  :)

We will begin again with the simple slaying of a lamb and why God asked that it be done. It seems that some are confused.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Richard Myers

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #159 on: June 14, 2001, 09:05:00 PM »
Brother Herbert, Sister Wendy and Brother Allan are away for the moment. Let us look at the requirement to bring a lamb, and to kill it.  And, let us go back before the Hebrew sanctuary to the first mention of the "Sacrifice".

Ever since the fall men have disobeyed God. The Lord gave Cain and Abel directions regarding the sacrifice they were to bring Him. Abel, a keeper of sheep, obeyed the Lord's command, and brought a lamb as his offering. This lamb, as it was slain, represented the Lamb of God, who was to be slain for the sins of the world. Cain brought as an offering the fruit of the ground, his own produce. He was not willing to be dependent on Abel for an offering. He would not go to him for a lamb. He thought his own works perfect, and these he presented to God.

And do we not see the same today?

Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.