Author Topic: The Hebrew Sanctuary  (Read 115258 times)

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Harry Elliott

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #100 on: April 14, 2001, 07:48:00 PM »

Hi Liane--

You certainly identified the only reason I know of to study the Hebrew sanctuary:   :)

“It is through the experience of the literal children of Israel that partook of the daily sacrifice, that we of spiritual Israel see Jesus so clearly now.“

So what exactly was their experience partaking of the daily sacrifice?  Surely to understand that experience, we need to study the scriptural description. Don’t the passages you mentioned pertain to an annual experience, namely the Passover?

--Harry



Richard Myers

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #101 on: April 14, 2001, 08:01:00 PM »
Amen, Sister Liane.  I would like to add in regards to the lamb. In this case it is a ram, but is still a symbol of Christ. Some have taught that there was (and is) no sacrifice for known sin. This is not true. The trespass offering was provided for those who did known sin. An example: "If a soul sin, and commit a trespass against the Lord, and lie unto his neighbour in that which was delivered him to keep, or in fellowship, or in a thing taken away by violence, or hath deceived his neighbour.....he shall bring his trespass offering unto the Lord, a ram without blemish out of the flock...and the priest shall make an atonement for him before the Lord and it shall be forgiven him..." Lev. 6:2,6,7.

In regards to the trespass offering "every male among the priests shall eat thereof: it shall be eaten in the holy place..."  Lev. 7:6.

The offering of the ram was required for forgiveness and the flesh of the ram must be eaten in the holy place. We shall come back to this when we look at the offerings, but suffice it to say that the lamb, ram, pigeon,  etc. represented Jesus, our sacrifice. Forgiveness would come after the confession of known sin and the killing of the sacrificial ram. The ram was killed in consequence of the sin. In type the sins of the guilty had been transferred to the innocent ram. The wages of sin is death. Of course we know that the blood of the ram would never atone for any sins, it was only a type (shadow) to teach the Israelites and the world that Jesus would gladly bear our sins and our punishment, IF we would confess our sins and accept Christ as our Sacrifice.

Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Liane H

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #102 on: April 14, 2001, 08:15:00 PM »
Hi Harry:

Yes the Passover is a yearly event, but why I brought it up and mentioned it, is for two reasons.

It was the first experience that the literal children of Israel of drawing them to the understanding of the true Passover Lamb, Jesus Christ.

Just before this, while still under bondage, they were given the experience of blood protecting them from death while in Egypt. The marking of the blood on the doorposts signified God protection. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin, so therefore if you are not covered by the blood of Jesus, then one is not saved.

As a new people, having lived under pagan rule for over 400 years, they had lost what God had given to them because of the bondage and time. The Passover was the first real experience given to them by God as to the meaning of what it means to be a child of God. This was the first teaching to them of what it means to be the firstborn, without blemish, a lamb. All these symbols tell us of Jesus.

In 1 Corinthians 5:7 "Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavend. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us."

Just as for us, which are spiritual children of Israel in Christ are to become a new lump, so it was for the literal children of Israel with the Passover experience, they became a new lump.

God reminds the literal children of Israel that they once were in bondage to Egypt and that He made a way out for them. God continues to do that for us, through the BLOOD of Jesus, makes a way out for us from sin, freeing us from the bondage of sin.

Liane  
 

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Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Harry Elliott

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #103 on: April 15, 2001, 05:51:00 PM »
Hi Richard--

Excellent exegesis!  :)  I just love digging into the exact wording of a passage.

You are certainly correct in pointing out that the sins of Leviticus 6 are deliberate--in contrast to the sins of ignorance of the preceding chapter.  I can’t imagine anyone innocently defrauding a neighbor.

While reading this in other translations, I concluded that the KJV may be misleading when it says that the trespass offering is to be eaten by the priests in “the holy place”, since the KJV term for the second apartment is “the holy place”. My REB does a better job, I think, when it says, “The priest who officiates is to eat of the flesh; it must be eaten in a sacred place, in the court of the Tent of Meeting”. (Lev 6:26)

One other point, I mention for the sake of precision. The only place I have found in the Bible (so far) that actually mentions placing sin upon an animal offering is Lev 16:21, “putting them on the head of the goat” to be bourne out of the camp.  Do you know of any passage that actually declares that sins are put upon an animal that is to die within the camp? That’s the prevailing assumption, but it would be nice to have a specific confirmation.

--Harry


Harry Elliott

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #104 on: April 15, 2001, 05:53:00 PM »
Hi Liane--

Beautiful thoughts.  :)

--Harry


Richard Myers

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #105 on: April 15, 2001, 08:23:00 PM »
Brother Harry, yes, it is good to have someone say that 2 plus 2 is 4, but in this case the verse I quoted pretty much says it all. The wages of sin is death. Why did the ram have to die?  We are at a very elemental level here.  :) Most evangelicals who are open to truth do not hesitate to agree. It is too plain. I love the simplicity of the gospel and the simplicity of the Hebrew Sanctuary and its services. It all ties in with Bible truth.

You make mention of the KJV being in error in regards to the use of the words Holy Place. If there was one fault that I attribute to many who teach the Bible, it is their willingess to set aside so much of the Bible in favor of someone's suggestion that the Hebrew and the Greek say something different than what the Bible says. I know, Brother Harry, you did not do this, you quoted another "bible".  Well, there are bibles many and I guess all can choose which one fits their particular ideas. I do not choose to find a Bible that fits my ideas. I chose the KJV because it is consistent and it was written in a time when Babylon had not fallen and was printing their own Bibles.

In a discussion with Desmond Ford, I understood his gospel to be other than the one Jesus has given us, and when he began to attempt to change Seventh-day Adventist theology (changing Holy Place to Most Holy Place), I took a look at the Greek to see how he was twisting the language. I am not fluent in Greek, matter of fact I don't know it, but I can understand that what he was trying to do, is just plain wrong. The use of the Greek may very well be interpreted the way the KJV has done.

Now, we do not have to argue over the Greek for the Bible is consistent and we shall see that Seventh-day Adventist theology has been correct in regards to the gospel including the judgment which began in 1844.

Line upon line, precept upon precept we shall see the power of God's grace to cleanse us from our unrighteousness no matter how many new Bibles attempt to hide the power of His love.  :)

Richard

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Harry Elliott

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #106 on: April 16, 2001, 08:59:00 PM »
Hi Richard--

I’m pretty sure that you wouldn’t agree with the KJV’s assurance that  the theif would be in paradise that day.  :)

Are you saying that Aaron’s sons went into the second apartment to eat the trespass offerings?(!)

--Harry


Richard Myers

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #107 on: April 17, 2001, 04:36:00 AM »
Brother Harry, you will not cause me to lose faith in the Word of God.  My KJV reveals the truth from Genesis to Revelation. It is not without some difficulities, but it is not such that a person seeking Jesus cannot find Him. The translators did an exellent job and if we want to find someplace to hang our doubts, God has left some places. I do not choose to doubt my Bible. Put the comma in the right place and acknowledge the great blessing that we have in our Bible. Do not cause others to stumble at these  small things. The word sacrifice may be removed in another passage. This does not cause me to miss the message of the power of God's grace, nor the judgment that began in 1844 and that continues today.  Line upon line, precept upon precept, the truth is revealed in a manner that all might be convinced of sin, righteousness, and judgment.

Let us continue in the courtyard that all may learn of the power of God's grace and the certainty of His judgment.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Allan F

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #108 on: April 29, 2001, 02:31:00 PM »
What I particularly appreciate about our eternal, almighty God who also created us, is that He don't want to force us in order to get His will with us. He could have created us without a free will. It would be safe for the universe. He could have programmed me to say "I love you" every time I woke up in the morning. But this would not satisfy him. To populate and live in a universe with this kind of beings would be very safe but utterly boring.

In the sanctuary we see that God do not force anybody. Even though He don't use force he surely uses power. The power of love, "the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance" (Rom 2:4). No one forced the sinner to go into the courtyard. He had to use his own free will in order to get there. In the same way as the israelites had to look up to the serpent in the wilderness in order to be healed, we too must use our free will, cooperate with God and look in faith, even though the whole world is telling us that this is "science fiction".

But sometimes God can put us into situations that will help us to make the right use of our free will. In Leviticus 26 we read about the two possible futures for the jews. God wants to help us in choosing him. In the first 13 verses God reveals his future plan A and all the blessings He will give them. But if they don't want to choose him as their God, he can not bless them, and future plan B will be the reality. But God can turn plan B into something good. All the bad things that was going to happen the Israelites if they chose away God had only ONE purpose: to help them confess their iniquity and humble their uncircumcised hearts (v. 40-41).

When I was a little child (3-4 years old), I really loved my little brother (I still do!). But there was a short period of time where I in pure love for him went too far in expressing that love. Just of a sudden I would bite him. Of course my brother would cry, but I didn't seem to really understand the seriousness of the situation. At last my mother had to bite me (of course not so hard as I did) in order for me to understand that what I did to my brother was not so good. That worked! (I am still a vegetarian  :)  )

So it is with God. He may also use different methods in order for us to open our eyes and realize our fatal situation. In some cases he may hinder us from harm other people, but He does not force us to himself.

At the altar there are two possibilities: Either I can give my sins to Jesus, or I can choose to hold on them. Then it is I that have to suffer on the altar. It is life or death. We should therefore not be surprised when God sometimes has to "shout" or expose us to some unwanted situations. He loves us too much just to say: "Well, I am sorry that you don't want to live a happy life together with me and the rest of the universe, for all eternity." No, He does everything that is possible for every unbeliever in order to lead them to the sanctuary and to heaven. Much of his work and methods we do not see now, but one day we will be able to ask God in every detail how he led us to him and eternity. I am looking forward to these testimony meetings !

Allan F


DavidTBattler

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #109 on: April 29, 2001, 08:05:00 PM »
Quote by Brother Harry

"Hi Richard--
I’m pretty sure that you wouldn’t agree with the KJV’s assurance that the theif would be in paradise that day.

Are you saying that Aaron’s sons went into the second apartment to eat the trespass offerings?(!)

--Harry"

Hello Harry

I am going to be direct with you if it's OK?

I have had Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses use the above approach in an attempt to discredit the Bible to me, and make me lose my faith in the Word of God, so that I would believe "their word of god."

Now, I'm not saying this is what you are doing; but I am asking you to clarify to us why you are making such statements about God's Word?

I am currently teaching a class on How To Study The Bible; and I'm not sure I understand your "hermeneutics" or your "theology," or your "soteriology." here.   :)

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"...We believe that through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, we shall be saved..."  (Acts 15:11).

Your brother in Christ

David T. Battler


Liane H

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #110 on: April 30, 2001, 03:36:00 PM »
Hi Harry:

In my error to learn certain things I had little understanding of the daily of the sanctuary, and boldly went to the year of atonement first, I guess you could say I took the cart in front of the horse.

So what have I learned lately. The outer court which contained the lavar and the alter for the burnt offerings is written only for the earthly. There is no mention of the outer court with the heavenly sanctuary.

There is reason. Because the outer court and the sin process was only related to the death of Jesus, so therefore there was a place for the outer court in which there is no heavenly pattern, only the sanctuary itself which contained the holy and most holy place and the objects therein can be seen elsewhere throughout the Bible.  

Jesus was to be crucified on the earth, not in heaven, so the need for the imagery and process of the outer court was necessary.

So this is as much as I have come to understand so far. I had not forgotten, just found myself realizing that the daily is new to me. I understood the overview, but never studied this deeply before.

Liane

 

Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Allan F

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #111 on: May 01, 2001, 09:52:00 AM »
Liane, I too did place the "cart in front of the horse" for some time. And it took some time before I saw the whole gospel in the sanctuary and its service. But today I beleive that it teaches us exactly the same fundamental truths that Jesus taught 2000 years ago and what he promised The Holy Spirit would teach his church. That is the truth about sin, righteousness and judgment (John 16:8).

In the courtyard we learn about sin and its consequences. The holy place is where we learn how to walk in righteousness by the Spirit. And the most holy gives us a knowledge about the judgment.

I agree with you concerning what you said about the earth as being the antitype of the courtyard. Heaven, thus must be the antitype of the tabernacle. It seems logical to me so far.

Allan F


Harry Elliott

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #112 on: May 05, 2001, 03:23:00 PM »
Hi David--

You wrote, “I am going to be direct with you if it's OK?”

By all means.   :)

“I have had Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses use the above approach in an attempt to discredit the Bible to me, and make me lose my faith in the Word of God, so that I would believe "their word of god."

“Now, I'm not saying this is what you are doing; but I am asking you to clarify to us why you are making such statements about God's Word?”

To understand one another, it’s essential to read everything written here in  context.  I’m sure you would agree with that.

I had mentioned in passing that the KJV OT uses the term “holy place” to refer to the inner apartment, but that sometimes it uses the same term to refer to other sanctuary locations.  Other translations are careful to use different terms for the inner apartment and the other locations.

I consider the “real” Bible to be the thoughts that its writers were tryiing to convey to us.  The original Hebrew and Greek came closest to those thoughts.  Since most of us cannot read the original languages,we are dependent on translations.  

I do not believe any translation is inspired.  Some treat the KJV as inspired.  I have no interest in persuading them otherwise.  I believe this subject is thoroughly discussed in the SDA Bible Commentary.

Thanks for asking.

--Harry


Harry Elliott

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #113 on: May 05, 2001, 03:38:00 PM »
Hi Liane--

I believe that our church has traditionally used the term “sanctuary” to refer to all three areas.  Certainly on the Day of Atonement, the courtyard and its altar were expressly cleansed by the sprinkling the same blood as the two apartments.

Have you concluded that there will be no antitypical cleansing of the courtyard by our High Priest?

--Harry


Harry Elliott

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #114 on: May 05, 2001, 03:47:00 PM »
Hi Allan--

“The holy place is where we learn how to walk in righteousness by the Spirit. And the most holy gives us a knowledge about the judgment.”

I like the sound of that.  But it’s not clear to me how the typical service teaches us anything about judgment in the Most Holy Place that is not taught in the other parts of the sanctuary.

Do you have any thoughts on this?

--Harry


Liane H

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #115 on: May 05, 2001, 05:27:00 PM »
Hi Harry:

I will try to answer this the best that I know how. If any brethren can give better, or correct where I err, please do so.

Your questions was: "Have you concluded that there will be no antitypical cleansing of the courtyard by our High Priest?"

WOW that is quite a question! If I understand your question, this is the answer I can give you.

We are talking about the daily, not the day of Atonement. If we are, then Jesus is not represented as the High Priest, but as the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. The type and antitype as far as the couryard has its correlation on the earth, there is no heavenly type or antitype in heaven for the courtyard of the daily or the Day of Atonement.

The work of the High Priest takes place only in the Most Holy Place in which there is a type and antitype on earth and in heaven in which our Lord Jesus partakes as the High Priest. There is no activity for the High Priest in the courtyard until after the cleansing of the Most Holy Place.

The earthly High Priest does nothing in the first room, called the Holy Place on the day of Atonement, only as a Priest in the daily. The two things that the High Priest did in the courtyard on the Day of Atonement was to kill the animal, take the blood and also coal off the alter as an offer of incense unto the Lord within the veil.

If my understanding is correct, Jesus is the Lamb in the courtyard, not the Priest or High Priest. The only type and antitype in the couryard is linked to the earth and the earth only.

Yet the High Priest does not do the burnt offering in the courtyard until after he has taken off the High Priest garments and has washed himself.

So therefore, Jesus also will not do any courtyard type and antitype until after he leaves the Most Holy Place and has taken off the garments of a High Priest and puts on the garments as King of kings and of vengeance.

The only type and antitype that I can see will again center on the earth in the final destruction of the wicked and Satan and his angels in that Great Day of the Lord of the courtyard activity of the day of Atonement of the final burnt offerings linked with the final destruction.

It is nice to be back and conversing with you. Hope this helps and please let me know what you think.

Liane

Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Harry Elliott

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #116 on: May 06, 2001, 04:19:00 PM »
Hi Liane--

Good to be back.  :)

Hmmm.

“The earthly High Priest does nothing in the first room, called the Holy Place on the day of Atonement, only as a Priest in the daily.”

Actually, the High Priest does more in the first room on the day of Atonement than in the second room.  He changes clothes there twice.  He bathes there twice. He sprinkles the blood of each of the two sin offerings there, just as he does in the second room--after he does so in the second room and before he does so in the courtyard.  All this before he confesses the sins of the congregation on the head of the scapegoat and sacrifices the Day of Atonement burnt offerings. (According to Leviticus 16).

As to the courtyard, the High Priest sacrifices the two sin offerings there, each sacrifice of course happening BEFORE taking its blood into the tabernacle.  And he cleanses the courtyard by the same blood sprinklings as in the two apartments BEFORE the scapegoat business.

I don’t know where we got the idea that the High Priest’s work on the Day of Atonement was exclusively in the Most Holy Place, but it’s widespread.

Another misconception is that the High Priest put on his high priestly garments only on the Day of Atonement.  Actually, he took them OFF before he cleansed the sanctuary, and put them back on for the rest of his Day of Atonement ministry.  These beautiful vestments, described in Exodus, chapters 28 and 39, were worn for all his other duties.  While cleansing the three parts of the sanctuary, he wore simple linen garments. (Lev 16:4, 24)

So you see why I have a hard time matching our traditional antitypical model to the typical service.  

--Harry


Richard Myers

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #117 on: May 06, 2001, 05:43:00 PM »
Brother Harry, can you agree that Jesus, after He removes His priestly garments will begin a work of cleansing the earth (the outer court)? Will not Jesus destroy sin and sinners and make the earth new? Is this not taught in the Hebrew sanctuary service and done so after the heavenly sanctuary has been cleansed? Isn't it beautiful, the simple truths taught in the sanctuary services!
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Liane H

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #118 on: May 07, 2001, 05:49:00 PM »
Hi Harry:

It is most interesting when one reads and reads scriptures and miss one little word.

Thank you for continuing this study as I am learning much.

Yes you are correct in verse 24 of Leviticus 16, it does state that the High Priest washed and changed garments was in the holy place. It is not clearly written in verse 4, but I would assume it is the same.

There are second set of garments which include: Linen under garment, embroidered coat, embroidered girdle, mitre with gold plate, blue robe of the ephod, ephod with onyx stones, breastplate and curious girdle.

The only record I could find of when the High Priest wore these garments was in Leviticus 8 at the consecration of the priests. I see no indication that he wore these garments during the Day of Atonement. I will study of this further.  

Otherwise, from what I can see, I am still not seeing any other activity in the first apartment or what is called the holy place in which took place the Day of Atonement for the High Priest.

Verse 13- he puts the  incense upon the fire before the Lord, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not. This fire was in a censer or pan and he put the incense on the fire which was in the pan at the foot of the mercy seat. This is different than the incense that is put on the altar of incense in the holy place.

Verse 14- The sprinkling of the blood seven times happens upon the mercy seat eastward and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his fingers seven times.
This is the Most Holy Place.

verse 15, he then comes out and kills the goat and goes back into the most holy place again and "do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock."
This again is also the Most Holy Place.  

verse 18, he shall GO OUT unto the alter that is before the Lord, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat and put it upon the horns of the altar round about.

verse 19, And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his fingers seven times and cleanse it and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.

Which altar are they talking about? It states he "GO OUT," must mean that he left the sanctuary and went out into the courtyard. The altar spoken of then is the altar of the burnt offering and the horns thereof. The altar of incense did not need to be cleaned from the uncleanness of the children of Israel, it was the altar of prayer.

My choice of the word "only" regarding the Most Holy Place, which is poorly used, was to mean that he did "only" in the Most Holy Place and not in the Holy Place as far as the sanctuary is concern.

There is still some question in my mind of to know whether the morning and evening offerings were still done on that day , if so, then yes the High Priest did go into the Holy Place during that day.

Please explain more why you have a hard time matching our  traditional antitypical model to the typical service?

Liane

Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

jherbertthompson

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Re: The Hebrew Sanctuary
« Reply #119 on: May 07, 2001, 06:41:00 PM »
I this purely a discussion of the moral, or Mosaic Law?  I so, then I fear my post may be completely off base...

It would seem to me that the basic reason why God gave His People a 'Type' of the 'Heavenly Sancturary' is that He needed to 'draw pictures on the wall' for a people who for, four-hundred and fifty years, 'lost track' of the 'God of their Fathers'?  They had developed some of the most unhealthy and abhorant habits known at that time in history.  They had been assimilated into the heathen culture, and basically needed a 'thunder and earthquaking experience' to 'wake them up'!

After Sinai, He [God] set up a testing station so-to-speak.  He re-created for His people from the simpilest of examples a means to [a] re-gain their confidence(s); gain their willing worship; [c] and present to them a picture of what the 'Story of Salvation' was in order that they might 'spread the Good News' about the Truth about God...

The Sancturary and it's services were to point their eyes to a 'Coming Redeemer'.  The one promised in the 'First Covenant'.  And, had they kept on line with His instruction; there would have been a completely different response to His [Jesus's] 'First Coming'.  Don't you think?

But sadly, they did not; and we all know the rest of the story...We however have to a greater extent the advantage over those during the OT times...We may, with honesty and open mindedness, look to, and comprehend the last page of this book!  The Sanctuary, Investigative Judgement, and Prophecies must all be understood clearly for those who will be 'waiting in that remnant band' when Jesus comes...It is my prayer to be in that band.  And that all those here may be also

Sincerely your brother in Christ,
The best vitamin for the Christian is 'B1'!