Author Topic: Latter Rain  (Read 42907 times)

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L.Picard

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« Reply #60 on: February 23, 2001, 07:06:00 PM »
The continuation of "the workings of the Spirit of God" (1SM130) through Elder A.T. Jones at the 1893 General Conference:

"Some of the brethren were saying this morning in the social meeting, that last night they felt as though they would like to praise the Lord out loud, but they thought they had better not. 'Quench not the Spirit.' If you want to praise the Lord for anything, the Lord tells you to do it. We might as well start here as any other time to have Seventh-day Adventists praise the Lord, or say, 'Praise the Lord,' in meeting. We might as well start that here as anywhere.

What the Lord said to Abraham, Abraham believed: And what He says to you and me, you and I believe, then we get the same results. It is not some particular thing that the Lord says, that we must believe in order to be righteous; whatever He says believe it, and then He says, 'you are right.'

I would like to know whether it is not so, that when the Lord says a thing He is right? (Congregation: 'Yes.') Then when I say 'That is so,' am I not right? (Congregation: 'Yes.') What in the world hinders me from being right? Can you tell? I will say it again: When the Lord says a thing, is He right? (Congregation: 'Yes.') He is right in saying it; then when I say 'That is so,' when I say, 'Amen,' when I say 'be it so,' when I say, 'Yes, that is so,' then am I not right? Yes. Am I not right just as certainly as He is? Certainly. Can even He say I am wrong? (Congregation: 'No.') When you say the same thing, can He say that you are wrong? (Congregation: 'No.') Well then, when we are in such a situation that the Lord Himself cannot say that you and I are wrong, I would  like to know what in the world is the reason we are not right? And believing God puts us in just that situation, as he did Abraham. I would like to know what can keep us out of Heaven then? What can keep us out of the kingdom of God, then?

The only thing that can keep you and me out of the kingdom of God is to tell the Lord that He lies; and if you and I will stop that business we will get into Heaven all right. That is just what people need to do, to stop telling the Lord that He lies. 'He that believeth not God hath made Him a liar.' 1 John 5:10. But whoever would make God a liar, is a liar himself, and liars cannot get into the kingdom of God.--Without are liars' and all those other people referred to in Rev.21:8,27, and 22:15. Then the thing we want to do is to stop lying. Let us quit right now. Stop lying. No difference what the Lord says, you say, 'That is so.'

Don't you see this is the whole story, and the very idea that Brother Haskell was trying hard to inculcate upon us here in our lessons, that there is salvation in every line of the Scriptures. For God says it, don't He? Well, when God says it, and we say it, then we are righteous, that is the end of it. God said that to Abraham; Abraham said, 'Amen, that is so, I take that.' So this shows that there is salvation in every line of the Scriptures, in every thing God says." A.T. Jones, 1893 G.C.Bulletin, p.378.
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THE MATTER OF SALVATION IS JUST AS SIMPLE AS ABC. BUT WE DONT UNDERSTAND IT! f.w.64   :)

TO BE CONTINUED!   :)

[This message has been edited by L.Picard (edited 02-23-2001).]

L.Picard

Richard Myers

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« Reply #61 on: February 23, 2001, 07:32:00 PM »
He (Jones) makes sound easy.  :) What do we say? Is it that easy?  Can we be righteous today? What must we do in order to be righteous? Can I will to be righteous? Can I just say the word and I will be righteous?   Will Jesus just say the word and make me righteous?

Maybe I don't have to do anything and I will be righteous. Is there more to this? Can I receive the "Latter Rain" if I am not righteous?

We have millions of professing Christians that need answers once they find out that they must have the character of Christ to enter heaven. Yes, they must have on the wedding garment.  :)

In His love and grace,   Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

L.Picard

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« Reply #62 on: February 23, 2001, 08:14:00 PM »
Richard, Is there something too hard for the Lord? Salvation is hard for us, impossible, but to the Lord it is easy! "My burden is light."  Of ourselves we cannot do anything good! D.A.98. To the Lord it is easy to do good! If we have Him dwelling in us then He is one with us and we strive according to His working which works in us mightily. Col.1:29.

Did not Sister White say that the matter of salvation was just as simple as ABC? It is simple to receive the righteousness of God but God's righteousness is infinite, infinitely powerful in Christ through the Spirit working in us both to will and to do God's good pleasure!

I dont know how to say it better than brother Jones did. And remember, Sister White said that his lectures were the results of "the workings of the Spirit of God," "the ministrations of the Holy Spirit of God," "the movings of the Spirit of God." Richard, did you not read how she said that the brethren called this teaching, which is according to righteousness, "excitement," "a species of fanaticism"?  Read it all over again! 1 SM 130,143.

May God help us not repeat the same mistake that was made in 1888 and 1893!

THE MATTER OF SALVATION IS JUST AS SIMPLE AS ABC. BUT WE DONT UNDERSTAND IT! f.w.64     :)


[This message has been edited by L.Picard (edited 02-23-2001).]

L.Picard

L.Picard

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« Reply #63 on: February 23, 2001, 08:43:00 PM »
The continuation of "the workings of the Spirit of God" (1SM130) through A.T. Jones at the 1893 General Conference:

"The story is simple enough, the mischief of it is, though, that we allow so much of Satan's devices to get in to mystify it. That is the mischief of it. God does not want that. He wants it to be just as simple as He has told it; and He has told it so simply that a little child can understand it and receive it. And you who do not receive it as a little child, cannot receive it. So I say again, that it is no difference what God says or when He says it; whatever He says, we, like Abraham, say, 'Amen, Lord I believe that, that is so.' Then He says you are right. And you are right, too.

Let us read on now, in Rom.4:3-5. 'For what saith the Scriputre? Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.'

Believeth on him that justifieth who? (Congregation: 'The ungodly.') Who is it, in this world, that the Lord justifies? (Congregation: 'The ungodly.) The ungodly; I am glad of it; for that assures me everlasting salvation. If it were otherwise there would be no hope for me. If God justified people who were only half saints that would leave me out. If He justified people who had only one good thing, that would leave me out. If He justified people who had only a little good about them, that would leave me out. But, thank the Lord, He is so good, He loves me so much, He has such wondrous power, the divine power of His righteousness is so great, that when He pronounces that word upon such a corrupt sinner as I am it makes me through and through righteous in the sight of God. (Congregation: 'Amen.') That is the worth of God's word 'righteousness.'

And because He is so good, because there is such divine power in His righteousness, and because He justifies the ungodly, therefore I have the perfect security of His everlasting salvation. Then what in the world is going to keep me from being glad? Can you imagine anything that is going to keep me from being glad? Can you imagine anything that is going to keep you from being glad? It is not enough for me to be glad; I want you to be glad; I can attend to my part of it. (Voice: 'I am glad.') Amen.

"To him that worketh not.' Yes, if it required works I could not do enough. If there was anything at all required it would leave me out. But O, as we read the other night, ye have 'sold yourself for naught' and 'ye are redeemed without money.' But not without a price; but lo, He has paid the price. And the blessing of it is that He was rich enough to pay the price, and the other blessing is He was good enough to spend all His riches in paying the price, that He might have me. He can have me.

I have heard brethren say, 'I thank the Lord I have confidence in Him.' I thank the Lord He has confidence in me! I think it is little enough for a man, for whom the Lord does that much, to have confidence in the Lord; but to think that the Lord would make such a wondrous investment in me with the confidence of ever getting the worth of it; His confidence in me I cannot grasp. That is too wonderful for me. And I am thankful that the Lord had that much confidence in His risk upon me. For that reason I am so glad I dont know what else to do. Brethren, the Lord is good. (Congregation: 'Amen.') Then let us trust Him." A.T. Jones, 1893 G.C. Bulletin, p.379.
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NOTHING CAN TAKE THE PLACE OF SIMPLE FAITH c.o.l.159.

[This message has been edited by L.Picard (edited 02-23-2001).]

L.Picard

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« Reply #64 on: February 23, 2001, 10:00:00 PM »
The continuation of "the ministrations of the Spirit of God," (1SM130) through Elder A.T. Jones, at the 1893 General Conference:

"'As David describeth the blessedness of the man'? Well, I should say so. I should say so. The blessedness of the man 'unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works.' Brethren, do you know the blessedness of that man? or are there some in this house who know only the distressedness of that man, who tries to get it by works? There is no blessedness of that kind; the Bible does not describe any blessedness of that kind. That is all distressedness only, and you know it. But God imputeth righteousness without works saying, 'O the blessedness of the man.'

There is a blessedness to that man; I tell you there is. O the blessedness of the man to whom He will not impute sin. To whom the Lord will not impute sin because he has received the gift of Jesus Christ, and all that God has given in Him, and when He looks at that man, He sees Jesus Christ; He does not impute sin to that man at all. Oh the blessedness of the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin!

'Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? For we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.' Three times, you see, there inside nine verses, three times the Lord has said it over, FAITH COUNTS FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Look at it. 'Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness.' 'To him that believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, HIS FAITH IS COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS.' 'We say that FAITH WAS RECKONED TO ABRAHAM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS.' Brethren, let us do like Abraham did; let us say, 'Amen.' (Congregation: 'Amen.') Counting that what God has promised He is able to perform.' (Congregation: 'Amen.') And then thank the Lord that He imputes to us righteousness, and makes us free.

'How was it then reckoned? When he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision?' Did not he have to go and circumcise himself and all his house before he could be righteous? (Congregation: 'No, sir.') 'When he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? When he was a Gentile. Is that so? (Congregation: 'Yes, sir.') Abraham was counted righteous when he was a Gentile? A heathen? (Congregation: 'Yes, sir.') Before he was curcumcised? 'And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness' that he had? (Congregation: 'Righteousness of the faith which he had.') Doesn't it say, he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness which he had? (Congregation: 'No; 'A seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had.') Yes, sir; Yes, sir; 'he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had.' (Congregation: 'Amen.') A seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had; not the righteousness that he had; but the righteousness of the faith which he had; because the righteousness that he had came by the faith that he had.

'That he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised.' Is that so? Father of all them that believe God. (Congregation: 'Amen.') All them that believe. Is that so? (Congregation: 'Yes, sir.') That righteousness might be imputed unto them also. He is the father of all them that believe, what for? 'That righteousness might be imputed unto them also.' Come along then. 'Father of all them that believe.' No wonder he could not count them, only the mind of God could count the seed of Abraham. They are indeed numberless as the stars, but lo, of the stars it is said, 'He calleth them all by name, and the blessing of it is, He is going to give us a new name. I tell you, brethren, the Lord loves us. Indeed He does." A.T. Jones, 1893 G.C.Bulletin, p.380.
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FAITH COUNTS FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS   :)

TO BE CONTINUED!   :)

[This message has been edited by L.Picard (edited 02-23-2001).]

L.Picard

L.Picard

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« Reply #65 on: February 23, 2001, 10:33:00 PM »
The continuation of "the workings of the Spirit of God," (1SM130) through Elder A.T. Jones at the 1893 General Conference:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure.' Oh! The Lord wants His promise to be sure to us, does He? And in order that it might be sure to us, where did He put it? 'Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure.' Look now; think of that carefully. I will say it slowly. 'Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace.' The word 'that' is what I am after. What does it mean? In order that, just this way. 'That it might be by grace.' Then it is of grace, is it? (Congregation: 'Yes.') It is of faith, that it might be by grace; what for? 'That it might be sure.' Then he who receives anything from God by faith, he is the man that is sure of that thing, isn't he? (Congregation: 'Yes.') And he who thinks of getting anything from God in any other way than by faith, never can be sure that he has it, because in fact he does hot have it at all. Do you see that? (Congregation: 'Yes.') Let us act that way.

'Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all.' Good. (Congregation: 'Amen.') To all. To all. 'To the end the promise might be sure to all the seed.' To Abraham He said, 'I have made thee a father of many nations, before Him whom he believed, even God; who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.' What does He do? (Congregation: 'Quickeneth.') What is that? (Congregation: 'Makes alive.') Giveth life unto the dead. 'Calleth those things that be not as though they were.' When He calls a thing that is not as though it were, then is it? (Congregation: 'Yes.') Did He not do that when He made the worlds? There were no worlds; He called them; what then? (Congregation: 'They were.') There was no light; He called the light; 'There was light.'

In me is no righteousness; here is all ungodliness; here is all uncleanness; God has set forth that same One who declared the word and the worlds came, and who declared the word 'light,' and light came--He has set forth that same One to declare righteousness in place of this body of sin. (Congregation: 'Praise the Lord.') In this place, this body, the character of sin, He calls that which is not as though it were, and, thank the Lord, it is. (Congregation: 'Amen.') And I am glad of it. Calleth those things that be not as though they were.' A sinner is not righteous; the ungodly are ungodly; but God calls that which is not, as though it were, and it is. (Congregation: 'Amen.') It is." A.T. Jones, 1893 G.C.Bulletin, p.380,381.
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IT IS OF FAITH THAT IT MIGHT BE BY GRACE. WHAT FOR? THAT THE PROMISE MIGHT BE SURE TO ALL!  :)

L.Picard

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« Reply #66 on: February 23, 2001, 11:34:00 PM »
The continuation of "the movings of the Spirit of God," (1SM130) through Elder A.T. Jones, at the 1893 General Conference at Minneapolis:

"'Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, so shall thy seed be. And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about a hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: he staggered not at the promise of God though unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; and being fully persuaded, that what God has promised He is also able to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; but for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on Him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised for our justification.'

He was raised that we might be justified; raised for our justification. I am going to let Him accomplish what He was raised from the dead for. That is settled. He knows how to do it, and He can do it; and I am going to let Him.

Now the fifth chapter of Romans--'Therefore being justified by faith.' What do you say? (Congregation: 'Amen.') Therefore being made righteous, being justified by faith, 'we have peace with God.' And I know it; don't you? We have peace with God. He syas so. Then it is so. Even though it were not so. Then it is so. Even though it were not so, it is so after He calls those things that be not as though they were. We cannot understand it; but we can know it. I know it; and that is all I care to do.

'Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: by whom also we have access into this grace.' How did we get into this grace? By faith. We have it, thank the Lord. 'Wherein we stand.' Do we stand there indeed? (Congregation: 'Yes.') He says so; it is so, isn't it? He says so, and it is so. He says we stand there; and we do, thank the Lord. 'Wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.' Don't we? He says we rejoice, and we do. Because when He says we do, He is right; and we say, 'Amen,' and then we are right. 'And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also.' Tribulations will come along as easy as can be; but they will not amount to anything against us. 'For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared to the glory that shall be revealed'--not to us only but'--'in us,' which shall be a part of us. That is how we shall shine as the sun in the kingdom of our Father.

Well, that is the righteousness of God; that is how Abraham received it. What is the blessing of Abraham, then? (Congregation: 'Righteousness by faith.') How did he get it? (Congregation: 'By faith') The blessing of Abraham is not received except by that man who has the faith of Abraham, is that so? (Congregation: 'Yes, sir.')

'Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law.' Has He? He says He has; then He has. 'Being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is everyone that hangeth on a tree: that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ.' Why did Christ become a curse on the tree? That the blessing of Abraham might come on you and me. Why did He redeem us from the curse of the law? That the blessing of Abraham migt come on you and me. What is the blessing of Abraham? 'Righteousness by faith.' Christ died that you and I might be made righteous by faith. Brethren, insn't it awful when a man will rob Christ of the very thing for which He died, and want righteousness in some other way? Insn't it awful? Brethren, let us believe in Jesus Christ.

'That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ.' Now then we are redeemed from the curse of the law; Christ is made a curse for us, that the blessing of Abraham might come upon us. And what does that come upon us for? 'That we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.'

Then, when we as a people, we as a body, we as a church, have received the blessing of Abraham, what  then? (Congregation: 'The latter rain.') The outpouring of the Spirit. It is so with the individual. When the individual believes in Jesus Christ, and obtains the righteousness which is by faith, then the Holy Spirit, which is the circumcision of the heart, is received by him. And when the whole people, as a church, receive the righteousness of faith, the blessing of Abraham, then what is to hinder the church from receiving the Spirit of God? (Congregation: 'Nothing.') That is where we are. What is to hinder, then, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit? (Voice: 'Unbelief.') Our lack of the righteousness of God, which is by faith,--that is what holds it back; for when that is received, it is given in order that we may receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Then let us be sure we have the blessing of Abraham, and then ask and we shall receive." A.T. Jones, 1893 G.C. Bulletin, p.382,383.
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THE BLESSING OF ABRAHAM IS GIVEN IN ORDER THAT WE MIGHT RECEIVE THE PROMISE OF THE SPIRIT THROUGH FAITH.  :)

L.Picard

L.Picard

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« Reply #67 on: February 24, 2001, 01:57:00 PM »
Its awfully quiet here! Come on!  :)Why don't we respond more when the love of Jesus and His salvation are presented to us in demonstration of the Holy Spirit? "The only remedy is belief in the truth, acceptance of the light. Yet many have listened to the truth spoken in demonstration of the Spirit, and they have not only refused to accept the message, but they have hated the light. These men are parties to the ruin of souls. They have interposed themselves between the heaven-sent light and the people. They have trampled upon the word of God and are doing despite to His Holy Spirit. I call upon God's people to open their eyes." T.M.91.
These words were penned regarding the message given by Elders Jones and Waggoner. What I have posted are "the workings of the Spirit of God in clear and unmistakable lines." 1 SM 130. If we reject this message we are rejecting Christ! Its that simple. We need to have our ears and our eyes anointed by the Holy Spirit that we may be able to distinguish between the work of God and that of man! The Lord calls upon each one of us to take hold of this message and share it with our families first and then with our brothers and sisters in the Church. It will not be long before it spreads like fire in the stumble and the work will be a complete success for Christ's righteousness will accomplish everything! 1 SM 118; F.W.27.
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ONE INTEREST WILL PREVAIL, ONE SUBJECT WILL SWALLOW UP EVERY OTHER, CHRIST AND HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS! r&h dec 23,1890

[This message has been edited by L.Picard (edited 02-27-2001).]

L.Picard

L.Picard

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« Reply #68 on: February 24, 2001, 05:54:00 PM »
~It would be good to study the parable of Matt.22, the parable of the Wedding Garment. "It opens before us a lesson of the highest consequence." C.O.L.307. This parable was first fulfilled in the time of Christ. In the parable the Jews are said to be the "bidden ones" who rejected the first call, the gospel invitation, given by the twelve and the seventy before the crucifixion; the rejection of this call was followed by the crucifixion of Jesus. After the crucifixion came the second call, which was also rejected. It began with Pentecost and ended in 34 AD when the Jewish nation sealed their final rejection of God's mercy by stoning Stephen. C.O.L.307-309.

This parable, which was a prophecy, has a double application. The parable deals with the wedding garment. The investigative judgment is involved in this parable. "By the king's examination of the guests at the feast is represented a work of judgment." C.O.L.310. The second fulfillment of this parable began in 1844 when Jesus entered the Most Holy Place of the sanctuary above to begin the work of investigative judgment. "At the appointed time the Bridegroom came, not to the earth, as the people expected, but to the Ancient of Days in Heaven, TO THE MARRIAGE." G.C.427.

But the marriage was not consummated in 1844 or shortly after. Because of unbelief, the work was not finished and the second coming was delayed. G.C.457.458. The first call of the parable came in 1888, that is, between 1888 and 1903. As we all know, just as the parable had predicted, the message was rejected. Jones and Waggoner were the servants who gave the first call. About 1903, Sister White said that we would have to remain in this world indefinitely because of unbelief. 1 SM 234,235.

Between the first and the second calls of the parable, there is the crucifixion. Between 1955 and 1957, we crucified the messages of the three angels when we repudiated the central pillar of our faith in order to gain the approval of the other churches. 18 meetings were held with representants of the Evangelical churches which ended in compromising the pillars of our faith. This was the crucifixion as prophesied in the parable. 1 SM 204,205.

After the crucifixion, "God's care and labor for the Jewish people had not lessened but increased." C.O.L.218. Likewise, though we have betrayed sacred trusts and declared that "We are one with our fellow denominational Christian groups in the fundamentals of the faith delivered to the saints," (Questions on Doctrine, p.32) "The Lord's care and labor for us have not lessened but increased."

After the crucifixion of Christ, the disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and the second and final call to the professed people of God was given until the Jewish nation sealed her final rejection in 34 AD.

Now, the second call is to be given to our church by men of God's own choosing just as it happened in the time of the first fulfillment of this parable. The message which is to be given is found in the 1893 General Conference Bulletin. Elder A.T. Jones gave that message "in demonstration of the Holy Spirit," (T.M.91) and in 1SM 130 Sister White identified the content of his lectures as "the movings of the Spirit of God." It is the teaching of righteousness according to righteousness, according to God's idea of what constitutes righteousness.

We are admonished to forget the human instrumentality. "The human agent is to be kept out of sight and God alone and His word are to be exalted." T.M.112.

We already know that the message will be rejected by the majority. But those who accept it will be those who will give the loud cry to the world. There will be those in the Church who will rise up against this solemn message and "this is what will cause a shaking among God's people." E.W. 270. "Persecution will spread the light." D.A.354.

As the message is being proclaimed, "Men belonging to the different companies and revered by them will pass through, some with pleasing words, and others with wrathful looks and threatening gestures, and will fasten the cords which will be weakening. These men will be constantly saying, 'God is with us. We stand in the light. We have the truth.' I inquired who these men were, and was told that they were ministers and leading men who had rejected the light themselves and were unwilling that others should receive it." E.W.241.

This is to be expected. Which side will we be on? Personally, I have studied these very messages for years. This has not been brought to my attention as of late. These messages, and what I have posted in this thread are only a small fraction of what is there in that Bulletin, and I know that indeed, as Sister White has said, Elder Jones's messages are "the ministration of the Holy Spirit of God."

We are to study these messages, accept them, and take them to our families and to our churches. I believe that with all my heart! History will be repeated. The work will be finished with men and women who are not too wise or too learned to believe just what God says. We must receive the righteousness of God as He gives it, as He gave it in 1893 which was 1888 "in special measure." 1893 G.C.Bulletin, p.494. God bless you all!  :)


[This message has been edited by L.Picard (edited 02-24-2001).]

L.Picard

WendyForsyth

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« Reply #69 on: February 25, 2001, 09:15:00 AM »
Hi Laval. I'll read all of this just as soon as I get a chance. But I haven't been able to get on the net lately, so I'm sorry. Awfully busy and my hubby was home for two whole days. Needless to say, he doesn't want to share me with the internet. But I promise to read. :)

God bless you,
Wendy

I have no doubt that God considers you to be one of His friends; otherwise He would not trust you with so many crosses, sufferings and humiliations. Crosses are God's means of drawing souls closer to Himself.

Fenelon


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« Reply #70 on: February 25, 2001, 09:25:00 AM »
Dear Brother Picard,

I have been reading with interest your posts. I am glad that you have restricted your AT Jones posts to 1888 -1895. I think that it is necessary to state that subsequent to 1895, AT Jones began shifting his theology to a more liberal view which eventually culminated in a breach from the SDA church. He later became very pentecostal oriented linking with evangelical and pentecostal prachers of his day with whom he spent the last 25 years of his life. He was well known for stirring up racial strife among the SDA church in 1916 and last served as a member of the sabbath keeping pentecostal church before he died.

It is very important for me to say this lest others get the impression that everything that AT Jones said was gospel truth.

Sincerely
Dugald


L.Picard

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« Reply #71 on: February 25, 2001, 12:56:00 PM »
Wendy! I just read your e-mail about the meat ban. Tanx. Interesting! I read a statement from Sister White to the effect that a time was to come when men would reap all sorts of diseases because of all this eating of animal flesh. We have come to that time, no doubt.

Wendy, do you have on your thingy a website called 1888 REVISITED? On this website, you will find some of the writings of A.T. Jones. Curiously enough, his 1891 and 1895 and 1899 lectures are there complete but ins't it interesting that only 5 of the 24 lectures that he gave at the 1893 General Conference are to be found there? I say that because these lectures are the most important he ever gave after 1888. In the 1893 Bulletin we are told that these lectures contain the very message given at the 1888 Conference except that this time it is even better than 1888 since they were given "in special measure." p.494.

This is the reason why I decided to post some of them on this forum. Oh how I wish everyone would read these posts slowly and carefully and prayerfully. I think we could all come to the unity of the faith if each one of us accepted these messages with the simple faith of a little child. Unless we do become like little children we cannot have what God gives as He gives it!

Its good to spend time with your hubby. Does he work out of town? How many kids do you have? What are their names? How old are they? Does your husband take the time to read the posts too? Just curious.   :) I sent you an e-mail yesterday. Did you get it? It was about the thread SATAN'S GREAT LIE!
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THROUGH HIS MERITS ALONE!   :)

[This message has been edited by L.Picard (edited 02-25-2001).]

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WendyForsyth

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« Reply #72 on: February 25, 2001, 01:09:00 PM »
Hi Laval! :)

Well Howard works as a caretaker for a quadraplegic 5 days a week. So we only have two days with him. He comes to visit the other days, but only for 1/2 to one hour. So we miss him. We have three children Jacob 8,Matthew  1/2, and Ashley 3. They are wonderful children and we are very blessed.

Yes I did get your email and I am trying to take the time to read through that very carefully. (Which is hard to do when all the kids are here :) ). So it might be tonight before I can respond. Talk to you later! :)

Wendy

I have no doubt that God considers you to be one of His friends; otherwise He would not trust you with so many crosses, sufferings and humiliations. Crosses are God's means of drawing souls closer to Himself.

Fenelon


L.Picard

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« Reply #73 on: February 25, 2001, 01:18:00 PM »
Hi Lewis! Thanks again for showing an interest. I believe that if everyone will take the time to read these posts very slowly and let everything sink in, allowing the Holy Spirit to come into our hearts to impress the truth into our souls, then we will not let these precious truths go easily.       :)

Concerning Jones and Waggoner, I own copies of the 1901 and 1903 General Conference Bulletins. All the minutes. Sister White is there and she is giving her support to these brethren all the way. A.G. Daniels is there encouraging brother Jones to present the light he believes the Lord has given him on the subject of organization. Great lectures. I believe it was after 1906 that A.T. Jones became a bit bitter because of the continual rejection and unbelief. Sister White compared these two men to Caleb and Joshua. "You have stoned these two brethren with stones of sarcasm and ridicule. I also saw some of you, in your tents, mimicking them and making all manner of fun of these two brethren. I also saw that if you had accepted their message we would have been in the kingdom two years from that date."

Sister White said that as did the Jews, our leaders rejected what they knew to be truth because it was too humiliating to their own dignity. Because of unbelief we had to go into the wilderness and sadly enough whether we realize it or not, we have been there ever since!  

So I suggest you get hold of the 1901 and 1903 Bulletins      :) and you will see that the Lord was still working through them as late as 1903. Tanx.

BTW I believe they will be in the kingdom. Remember Miller. He rejected the light of the Sabbath and Sister White was shown that Miller will not be accounted responsible. She said that the blame rested upon some other people who had something to do with blinding him or something. Do you remember reading that? Jones and Waggoner were "killed" as it were! We are no better than the Jews. We have "killed" the prophets and His messengers. Please read 1 SM 357, 358. "We need to be converted as did the Jews." F.W.77.  :)

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« Reply #74 on: February 25, 2001, 05:31:00 PM »
The continuation of "the movings of the Spirit of God" (1SM130) through Elder A.T. Jones at the 1893 General Conference:

"The last study we had here was an effort to get as plainly as possible before this people, the difference between satanic belief and the faith of Jesus Christ; the difference between justification by works  under the heading of justification by faith--the difference between that and justification by faith as it is. That was the effort; that was the aim. And you will remember how it was done, and that brought us to the subject that is ever before us: that we must have the teaching of righteousness according to righteousness. And this can be, as we have found, only according to God's idea of righteousness, and not our own; and in order to have God's idea of righteousness instead of our own, we must have the mind that can comprehend it, and that alone is the mind of Jesus Christ. Whoever has not the mind of Jesus Christ itself, whoever has not yielded up himself, and all that he has and is, and received the mind of Christ instead, does not know, and he cannot know what righteousness by faith is; he cannot know what justification by faith is. He may profess it; he may assent to it; he may claim it, but he cannot know it; for no man can know it, with the natural mind. Let us turn now and read from the Bible where it says so. 1 Cor.2:14.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him." That is just the way the righteousness by faith has been treated by hundreds of people who profess to believe it. Elder Johnson: The priests of the State church in Scandinavia preach it that way. Yes, the Catholics all preach it that way. With the natural mind it belongs that way. And it will always be that way with the man who has not the mind of Christ. But the man who has not that mind does not know it. He thinks he is straight; he thinks he has got the righteousness of God which is by faith. And yet what he has is not so good but what he has to do ever so much himself in order to patch it up and complete it; but yet he thinks that that is righteousness by faith.

How can a man then know the righteousness of God with the natural mind? Now, I just appeal to you. I do not care who you are, whether you have ever heard of Christ before in your life; now just take that verse as it reads: how can a man know the righteousness of God for himself with the natural mind?

Again: the righteousness of God as expressed in letters, in words, in the ten commandments, is the law of God. Now, all agree with that; there is not a Seventh-day Adventist that will not agree with that. The difficulty is, so many people try to get the righteousness of God out of the law by the law. Some try to get it--No; they actually get it without the law, by the faith of Jesus Christ, which is 'unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference.' Rom.3:21,22.

He who obtains it in that way has it, but I say we all agree, every Seventh-day Adventist will confess, that the ten commandments express in letters, in words, the righteousness of God.

Now, then, 'The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.' How then, can the carnal mind know the righteousness of God? How can the carnal be subject to it? It cannot be, says the Lord. Then the man who has only the carnal mind, who knows only the natural birth, and has not the mind of Jesus Christ, cannot know the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ.

And now, just now, when the Lord wants to reveal to us the righteousness of God according to righteousness, to give to us the teaching of righteousness, now as never before on earth, it is that we need and must have the mind of Jesus Christ alone.

Now, 'The carnal mind is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.' Is the mind of Christ subject to the law of God? (Congregation: 'Yes.') Was it ever anything else? (Congregation: 'No.') The mind of Christ was subject to the word of God always. The whole Bible, of course, is simply the drawing out of the law of God as it is in Christ. Well then, was not the mind of Christ always subject to the law? to the whole word of God just as it is? (Congregation: 'Yes.') There was never any hitch upon that. Wherever the word of God was read, how did the mind of Christ receive it?--It instantly received it. He would not say, 'Now how can that be, I wonder.' Don't you suppose He said, 'Well now I think that means this way.' Didn't He say, 'Are you not a little too strong about reading that text?' 'Can't you modify it just a little?' Did he ever get troubled over what the Bible said about anything, or what the Lord would say? No. Whenever the word of God was spoken, the mind of Christ instantly responded.

Brethren, I know that you can know, and that any man in this world can know, can have, just that kind of a mind. I know that you can have just such a mind, that whenever the word of God speaks the response is instantenous; and there is no question, or doubt, or sign of rejection. Now you can see upon this very thing, that if you and I have such a mind as that, then when the word of God is read, there is no rising up, or objection, or dissent--is that the mind of Christ? (Congregation: 'Yes.') Then it is easy enough to know whether we have the mind of Christ, or not.

If your mind or my mind, if your disposition or my disposition, or yourself or myself is not in that surrended condition--that position of surrender unto God--that whenever He speaks, in the word there, or by His prophets, and there is anything in that mind or in that heart that raises up any objection or dissent, then whose mind have we? (Congregation: 'The carnal mind.') That is the mind that started out to object in the first place. THE TIME HAS COME TO GET RID OF THAT THING.

But I say that a man can have just that kind of a mind that whenever and whatever the word of God speaks there is instant response. There is nothing in that mind or about it in the world that can rise up in objection against it. That mind is not natural to a man, but a man can have it, and can know that he has it, and that is the mind that we are to have. That is the mind to which the Lord can reveal His righteousness according to righteousness; because it is the mind that receives from God just what God has to give in God's own way, and not in any way that I would fix up, or modify, or discount it.

So then, the man who receives the idea, the truth, of justification by faith or righteousness by faith, according to his own idea or his own view of it, simply cannot do it; he simply has not got it; that is all. It is just that same satanic idea of righteousness by faith; it is simply the same Roman Catholic system of Justification by works, passing it off for Justification by Faith. And the time has come now in a great deal more serious sense than ninetenths of us dream of, when we need to know that we have the righteousness of God and Jusfification by Faith in another sense than the Roman Catholics use it. That is settled." A.T. Jones, 1893 G.C. Bulletin, p.296,297.

"Implicit belief in Christ's word is true humility, true self-surrender." D.A.535.
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WE BELIEVE THE WORD IMPLICITLY AND OUR FAITH IS COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS! THIS IS THE MIND OF CHRIST! PRAISE THE LORD! HE IS GOOD!

[This message has been edited by L.Picard (edited 02-25-2001).]

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Dugald T Lewis MD

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« Reply #75 on: February 26, 2001, 06:27:00 AM »
Dear Bro Picard,

I see your enthusiasm to present the material of Jones and wagner. I feel it appropriate to interject words of caution. It may well be that the apostasy did not become evident until after 1903, but there was a progressive move towards the state of apostasy.

Sister White was quite disappointed about the direction that was being taken by Jones. She had intitally referred to Jones and Wagner as Caleb an Joshua in bringing the truth of righteousness of faith, a valuable truth that was neglected for a long time among us. However, Sister White became very disappointed over the direction that Jones was taking.

Following the emergence of the pentecostal movement in 1901, Jones sought common ground with them. In his sabbath-keeping church, they spoke in tongues and had the charismatic style of worhip that many have today.

Once while Jones was preaching on the streets of San Francisco, Elder Willie White went up to Jones and begged him to come back to the truth. He had some very angry words for Elder White and refused.

Elder Butler later acknowledged that he should have listened to Sister White
and her cautions at the 1888 GC.

It is very important to state this so that the affection is not towards Jones and Waggoner, but to the truth of the message of righteousness by faith. We know the extremism that can come out of that doctrine and we are witnessing a lot of this in our church today. The end result of Jones' activities confirms in my mind the fact that he and Sister White may have been speaking the same language in 1888 to 1903, but for a different reason.


Sincerely
Dugald

[This message has been edited by Dugald T Lewis MD (edited 02-27-2001).]


Richard Myers

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« Reply #76 on: February 26, 2001, 06:52:00 AM »
Brother Picard, I have a similar concern as Dr. Dugald.  I appreciate the message that God sent through Waggner and Jones and Ellen White, but I have to challenge your statement that there is some relationship between Miller and Waggoner and Jones in regards to their being saved. The two situations are not similar at all. There really is no need to speculate as to the final condition of these men. We do know the probleme they had was more basic than not understanding the Sabbath. They were denying a much more important theological issue.

While we appreciate the message sent of God, we do know that Ellen White was given greater light for the next 25 years and she transmitted this to us in ways that were very balanced, more so than Waggoner and Jones. So, at some point we need to begin looking at the message as it came forth from the prophet.

I have not had the time to read all that has been posted pertaining to Waggoner and Jones since the posts have been numerous and long. The caution that we give is not to reject anything they say, but to not accept it as we would the Spirit of Prophecy. We must take an extra measure of care in relating all that they have said in comparing it to the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy. Again, this does not take away from what Brother Picard has been attempting to point out in regards to the message of the righteousness of Christ. This is the message that will be poured out upon God's people as they open their hearts to heaven.

In His love and grace,   Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

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« Reply #77 on: February 26, 2001, 10:36:00 AM »
Brother Dugald, what are we going to do with the 1901 and 1903 General Conference Bulletins which show that brother Jones was still presenting the third angel's message?

And where did you get this information about brother Jones? Are you sure of the year 1901??? Its important since it would make Sister White look bad and the leaders at the 1901 and 1903 Conferences!  :) If the 1901 and 1903 General Conference Bulletins are not a reliable source of evidence, what is?

Richard, God will be the judge. Some of us are quick to talk about Jones and Waggoner going into apostasy. We make it sound and look as though these two brethren were the bad guys when, on the contrary, numerous Testimonies show that the leaders and the ministers were the ones responsible for the rejection of the light that was to lighten the earth with its glory! 1 SM 234,235. In the judgment, when the books are opened, it will be interesting to see what really happened. But I am afraid we will have to wait until then.  :) As this thread shows, and no one can deny it, A.T. Jones's lectures at the 1893 General Conference are critical to us today in the sense that he was giving the third angel's message "in demonstration of the Holy Spirit." T.M.91. I beg all who are viewing this thread not to forget how the pen of inspiration has told us that here we are dealing with "the workings of the  Spirit of God in clear and unmistakable lines." This is what Ellen White had to say about these lectures as anyone can read it for himself in 1 SM p.130. On page 143 God warns us by saying that "when the Lord shall again let His light shine upon the people they will turn from the heavenly illimination." This is written in reference to the light given to His people in 1893 which was a repeat of the light given in 1888. You can read it for yourself. Its all on page 143. There is a direct reference to 1893.

So, the Lord willing, and as long as this forum will allow me, I will continue to post from the 1893 G.C. Bulletin so that those who are interested may have an opportunity to get acquainted with the third angel's message as it was given then by this dear brother. Thank you.  :)
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[This message has been edited by L.Picard (edited 02-26-2001).]

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« Reply #78 on: February 26, 2001, 12:41:00 PM »
The continuation of "the workings of the Spirit of God," (1SM130) through Elder A.T. Jones at the 1893 General Conference:

"When Jesus tells you and me we are blind, the thing for us to do is to say: 'Lord, we are blind.' He told those folks they were blind; but they said it was not so. John 9:39-41. It was so. If they had confessed their blindness they would have seen God in that man's healing from his blindness. Well, then, brethren, the thing for us to do is to come sqare up to that Laodicean message, and say that every word He says is so. When He says you and I are wretched, tell Him, 'It is so, I am wretched; miserable, it is so, I am miserable; poor, it is so; I am poor, a perfect beggar, I shall never be anything else in the world; blind, I am blind, and shall never be anything else; naked, that is so; and I do not know it; that is so too. I do not know it at all as I ought to know it.' 1 Cor.8:2. And then I will say to Him every day and every hour, 'Lord, that is all so; but, oh, instead of my wretchedness, give me Thine own satisfaction; instead of my misery, give me Thine own comfort; instead of my poverty, supply all Thine own riches; instead of my blindness, be Thou my sight; instead of my nakedness, oh do Thou clothe me with Thine own robe of righteousness; and what I know not, Lord teach Thou me.' (Congregation: 'Amen.')

Brethren, when we come with one heart and one mind to that place, we shall have no difficulty at all in repenting. It will not be difficult to repent, and there will be no lack of repentance. That next verse will be fulfilled. 'As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten; be zealous therefore, and repent.'

The difficulty about our not being able to repent is that we have not confessed that what the Lord Jesus has told us is the truth. When I know that I am wretched then I know that I need something that will satisfy me, and I know that nothing but the Lord can give that, and I depend upon nothing but Him to give it; and if I have not Him, why it is only wretchedness. Any moment that I have not Him it is only wretchedness; and any moment that I have not His comfort, it is only misery; any moment that I have not absolute dependence upon His unsearchable riches--the unsearchable riches of Christ--I am utterly poor, a complete beggar; and every moment that I do not see and confess that I am blind, and have Him as my sight, I am in sin; He says so.

Now you say you see; therefore your sin remaineth. And every moment that I do not see my nakedness and depend only and absolutely upon Him and His righteousness to clothe me, why so certainly I am ruined, utterly ruined, and every moment that I begin to say, 'Now I know so much,' no, I do not know that at all. Well, then, the thing that I am to do, is to say, 'Lord, I do not know it; I depend upon Thee to teach me everything, even to teach me that I am wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked, and that I need all these things. And when I tell Him all that, He will give all I need. He will do it. That is our situation." A.T. Jones, 1893 G.C.Bulletin, p.166,167.
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WE SAY, 'LORD, IT IS SO! AND OUR FAITH IS COUNTED UNTO US FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS! PRAISE THE LORD FOR HE IS GOOD AND HIS MERCY ENDURES FOREVER!  :)

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« Reply #79 on: February 26, 2001, 01:15:00 PM »
The continuation of "the workings of the Spirit of God," (1SM130) through Elder A.T. Jones at the 1893 General Conference:

"Some have said they cannot see how a man can acknowledge himself to be wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, and don't know it, and at the same time be rejoicing in the Lord. Well, I would like to know how any one else can. I would like to know how a man is going to rejoice in the Lord, when he thinks he is all right himself. Can you tell? I can't imagine. But when a man knows that he is what the Lord says he is, and acknowledges that, and then finds that the Lord is so good that he will take him just as he is, and fits him to stand in the presence of God through all eternity, then that man has something to rejoice for. He can't do anything else.

Why, brethren, the Lord does not save us because we are so good, but because He is so good. Do not forget that. He does not save us, nor bless us in the work of God at all because we are so good, but becauwe He is so good and we are bad. And the blessedness of it is that He will bless us so much when we are so bad. And the rejoicing of the whole thing is that He saves us and makes us to relfect His own image, as bad as we are. That is where the rejoicing comes in. "He justifies the ungodly." Rom.4:5.

Well, about understanding that; I cannot understand it, but I know it is so, and that is all I care for. It will take eternity to explain it so we can understand it; but as long as I know that it is so, I am not going to trouble myself and worry about HOW the Lord can do it, or whether I can understand it. Are you? (Congregation: 'No.')

There is another point right here that we may bear in mind,--those who can't see that that it is so. Brethren, you tell the Lord over and over that it is so, and then you will see it. You will not understand it then, but you will see it. You can't see how it can be, but you see that it is a fact; and that is the only way you can. Can I see it as long I keep myself from it?--No. It is a thing that pertains to the heart, and you can't see it with your eyes; you must see it with your heart, and it is only the Spirit of God who gives the eye-salve that you can see it. Here is something that will--not explain it, but it will perhaps help you to get the idea a little better. In Testimony No.31, page 44, I read these words: 'Are you in Christ? Not if you do not acknowledge yourselves erring, helpless, condemned sinners."

You are not in Christ unless you acknowledge yourself to be that. Now is that so? (Congregation: 'Yes.') Are you willing to stick to that now whether you understand how it is so or not? (Congregation: 'Yes.')

That is what some of the brethren say they can't see. They say, 'I can't see how, if I am in Christ, I am to acknowledge myself a helpless, undone sinner; I thought if I was in Christ, then I could thank the Lord I was good.' Why no. He is. When you are in Christ, He is perfect, He is righteous, He is holy and never errs, and His holiness is imputed to you--is given to you. His faithfulness, His perfection is mine, but I am not that.

"We have nothing in ourselves of which to boast. We have no ground for self-exaltation."
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THERE IS NO CONDEMNATION FOR THOSE WHO ARE IN CHRIST FOR THOSE WHO ARE IN CHRIST ALWAYS ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THEY ARE ERRING, HELPLESS, CONDEMNED SINNERS! What a beautiful Scriptural paradox!   :)

[This message has been edited by L.Picard (edited 02-26-2001).]

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