Author Topic: Romans 7 and 8  (Read 95361 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Ben

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 519
    • http://
Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #60 on: August 14, 2002, 09:46:00 AM »
Well lets get this here horse galloping again, eh?

(Sorry this is a looong one...better just print it out and be done with it! I don't want to waste anyone's time about where I see the Lord on this so, I'm gonna give the full gamut right off!)

Let the person who is seeking for victory over sin be as soundly convinced that no amount of effort, of intensive study of the Word of God, of church attendance, activity in missionary lines, devout prayers and the liberal giving of offerings, is going to cause the carnal mind to bring forth the fruits of the Spirit. This is not the way, for the "carnal mind . . . . Is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." it is as sure that this is so as it is true that the thorn bush is not subject to the law of producing apples neither indeed can be.

Therefore, any person who, while still retaining the carnal mind, is attempting to keep the law of God to bring forth the active fruits of the Spirit is attempting an absolute impossibility. Not until that carnal mind is dealt with so that its power is broken, can the person begin to keep the law of God. The axe must be laid at the root of the tree. There is no other way.
There are those in the religious world today who think that the solution to the problem is to do away with the law. A little careful thought will show that this cannot be. An ignorant man thought to do away with the heat problem by breaking the thermometer, but when he had done that it did not change the heat or lessen the problem. The problem was still there in the unchanged and unabated heat. What he had lost was an accurate means of knowing how hot it really was.

So likewise, if the law is taken away it will make no difference to the sin. It will still be there. What will have happened is that man will be without an accurate gauge by which he can know what the sin is.
In the earlier part of Romans seven this truth is well expressed in the illustration of the marriage. Here it is clearly shown that there is no need to change the law. It is perfect and in no need of change. What needs to be changed is the individual for there is the problem.

"Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man." Romans 7:1-3.

The situation here is one with which all are familiar as all understand the law of marriage. While the woman is legally married to her husband, the law will condemn as adultery any attempt which she might make to marry another man. But should the husband be dead, then the very same law which formerly condemned her marriage to another will now condone it. A change has taken place but it has not been in the law. It has been in the woman. She has changed from being a married woman to being a single woman.

This is equally true in the spiritual realm. In fact, Paul has not here launched into a dissertation on the marriage question, but has rather used the marriage law as an illustration of the spiritual marriage with Christ.

"Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to Him Who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God." Romans 7:4.
There is not the slightest hint in this verse of any change being made in the law, but there is a clear reference to a change being made. It is to be made in the individual. He must become dead so that he can be married to another, even Christ, for He is the One Who is raised from the dead.
The whole purpose of the work of Jesus Christ is to save from sin, as it is written, "Thou shalt call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins." Matthew 1:21.

To be saved from sin is to be saved from lawbreaking for sin is lawbreaking as it is written, "Sin is the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:4. Lawbreaking is disobedience. Therefore, to be saved from lawbreaking is to be saved into obedience.
It is clear, then, that neither the putting forth of the supreme effort of the will, nor the doing away of the law is the solution to the problem.

Having seen then what the solution is not, we turn to what the solution really is. The solution lies in the eradication of the old nature and its replacement with the new nature altogether. There is nothing more clearly taught in the Scriptures than this. Consider the clarity of this verse as a statement of it.

"And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God." Ezekiel 11:19, 20.

In language as plain as it can be, the Lord states that He will take the old sinful, stony heart out of their flesh and give them a new heart in its place. He does not say that he will give them a new heart along with the old. This is not the message of the verse. Note it carefully for it states that the old will be taken out of their flesh and a new spirit and a new heart will take the place of the old.

All this is done for a purpose. It is done to achieve certain results. It is done "that (for the intent or purpose) they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God."

How clearly we saw that in Romans seven the very reason as to why the intended servant of God could not do that which he desired to do was because he still had the old carnal mind in him ruling over him as a master. It has been emphasized that the presence of this power is the problem for this man. Now it is to be seen that the Lord knows that this is the problem and that the only solution to the problem is to remove the offender and replace it with a new heart altogether.

To return to Christ's illustration of the thorn bush, we find the same answer there. In the garden the thorn bush is standing green and flourishing but useless as a fruit-producer. It stands in the way, occupies good soil and tears the clothes of those who pass by. So the gardener has a problem. He wishes to have good fruit such as apples or oranges, but he has a thorn bush. He knows that the only solution is to tear the thorn bush from its place in the dust of the earth, and to replace it with a good tree. Then he knows that in due time he will obtain good fruit for the very simple reason that he now has a good tree.

So likewise, the man of Romans seven desires to bring forth the good works of the law in the form of the fruits of the Spirit, which are love, joy, peace, and so on. But he has an evil nature within which is the fountain, not of loving obedience, but of hatred, pride, jealousy and the like. His predicament is the same as that of the gardener with the thorn bush and the solution is the same. That evil nature must be uprooted from the human body made of the dust of the earth and replaced with a nature born from above. Only thus can he be a child of God and only thus can be brought forth the good fruits of the Spirit.

This truth is stated again and again in the Scriptures so that the repeated witnesses of it will leave no doubt in the mind of any as to the way of deliverance from sin's terrible power. "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:24.

God sent His Son into the world to condemn sin in the flesh. A very important distinction needs to be recognized here. The actions of sin can well be termed the sins of the flesh, while the indwelling power of the stony heart or the carnal mind, is the sin in the flesh. Now notice that Jesus did not come to do a superficial work of merely condemning the sins of the flesh. He came to condemn the sin which is in the flesh and which as such is the very root of the problem and the cause of the continual defeat experienced by all those who still possess this inner evil power.

Why did He come to condemn the sin in the flesh? It was that, once it had been condemned, "the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
Over and again the message is the same. The old is condemned, it is eradicated and removed so that a certain objective may be fulfilled. That purpose is that we might be placed where we can live the life of the righteousness of God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

When Jesus came and effected the condemnation of the sin in the flesh, to what did He condemn it? Did He condemn it to be placed under subjugation and control? Did He condemn it to exile? Did He condemn it merely as a declaration of disapproval? He condemned it to none of these. He condemned it to death, a death which became effective through the result of His death and resurrection.

Nowhere is the truth of this more plainly stated than in Romans 8:1-6.
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

Verse six is the climax of the argument contained in these verses. While the previous verses have made it plain that those who are in Christ Jesus, and are therefore God's true children who have justification and therefore have a title to the kingdom above, have died and been raised as He died and was raised, this verse specifically tells what it is that has died.
But before attention is turned to that which must die before we are set free from sin, let the force of the message of the previous verses be seen. The message here is that only those who have died can live. It is another way of saying that the old must go before the new can come in. Death always takes away the old. Resurrection brings in the new.

In its strongest terms in this passage, this truth is expressed in verse 5, "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection."

The first part of this text is a conditional clause. “If we have been planted in the likeness of His death. . . .” This is to express the great truth that unless this condition is fulfilled the rest cannot follow, for only those who have died with Christ can in turn live with Him. That is to say, only if the old has been taken away can the new come in. First, the thorn bush must be removed before the apple tree can take its place. They cannot and they do not grow in the same spot.

Now what is Paul saying in these verses? Is he uttering some high-sounding but meaningless rhetoric or are these real words about real experiences? When he states that we have to die with Christ, what does he mean by this? Do we have to actually die, or is this merely some change in mental attitude or the like?

That which makes it difficult for folk to believe that this is to be an actual death is the failure to distinguish between the sinful flesh and the sinful carnal mind, which is otherwise called the stony heart, the old husband and the sin master. Because the average person thinks of the sinful nature as being the flesh, and because we know that a person does not terminate this earthly life in order to be born again, it is assumed that this is only a make-believe death. They imagine it to be something which is merely reckoned or attributed to the person but actual in the life of Christ.

Now it is entirely true that the person who leaves behind the experience of Romans seven and becomes a truly resurrected child of God, does not die physically. He has the same flesh and blood, as a converted man, as he had while out in the world. There has been no death and no change there. Sinful flesh is mortal flesh. From this no one will be delivered until the great resurrection morning when Christ descends to call His people to their heavenly home.

But he dies, for, if he does not, then he cannot be in Christ. What then dies? The answer lies in verse 6. "Knowing this that our old man is crucified with Him. . . .” Here is something which is termed "our old man". What does this expression mean? Who or what is the old man? To make sure that we understand, the next part of the verse tells us that the old man is crucified, "that the body of sin might be destroyed. . . ." Paul could well have written as follows: "Knowing this that our old man is crucified with Him, that the old man might be destroyed. . . ." But instead of using the term "the old man" the second time, he uses the other name, "the body of sin". Thus we are helped to know that the "old man" and "the body of sin" are one and the same thing.

In Romans 7:24, it is there called "the body of this death", which is also another way of expressing that which in the same chapter he had earlier called the "law of sin". From the study already given in this publication, we now know that the "old man", the "body of sin", the "body of death" and the "law of sin" all refer to that third factor, the carnal mind, which is "not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

This is the thing which is crucified to death in the life of those who pass from being unconverted to being converted. This is that which must be done away with by death so that a new life can be resurrected in the place of the old.

Let no misunderstanding be entertained about the fact that this is to be an actual death. Crucifixion is not exile. It is not merely being placed in prison for lifelong incarceration. It is not being chained up or put under control. Crucifixion is a form of death. Its purpose is to put to death, and those who crucify are not satisfied until this result is achieved.

Therefore, when Paul says that the old man is crucified, he means that it is put to death. To make certain that this meaning is caught by the reader, he says that he is crucified so that the body of sin might be destroyed. When something is destroyed, then it simply ceases to exist. Its life history is ended. It is no more.

In each of the other texts and illustrations, we saw that this work is all accomplished for a very definite purpose. It is that the person might pass from disobedience to obedience, from complaining that he cannot do that which he desired to do, to having the righteousness of the law fulfilled in his life. So in this verse, the old man is crucified, the body of sin is destroyed, “that henceforth we should not serve sin."

Nature is a wonderful illustrator of gospel truth. The truth then of this verse will be seen with greater force if we substitute the thorn bush situation for the old man, and then read the verse as it would apply to the gardener who desires to have good fruit but has instead a thorn bush. He tears it out and replaces it with the apple seedling. Then he says:

"Knowing this, that the old tree has been torn out by the roots that the thorn bush might be destroyed, that henceforth it should not produce thorns."

No one will have the least difficulty in seeing that this principle operates in nature and how it operates there. See the same principles of operation in the spiritual world and the understanding will be equally clear in respect to this work of soul cleansing as a preliminary to victory over the sin problem.

[This message has been edited by Ben (edited 08-14-2002).]

"Rev 10:10  And I took the little scroll out of the angel's hand, and devoured it. And it was sweet like honey in my mouth; and when I ate it, my belly was made bitter."

Richard Myers

  • Servant
  • Posts: 38496
  • A glorious sunset teaches of trust and faith.....
    • The Remnant Online
Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #61 on: August 14, 2002, 09:11:00 PM »
Brother Ben, do you find your understanding to be in harmony with what I have shared?  Also, could you explain, in the context of your examples, how sin (known sin) enters the life of the converted Christian.

Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Ben

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 519
    • http://
Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #62 on: August 14, 2002, 10:35:00 PM »
I don't see major disagreements on my first scan of this topic (apart for some attempts  by others to push a new round of ceremonies on us!) However there is much more to read here than my post; have you had a chance to print it out and dissect it?
It is heartening to see that Waggoner's study on Roman's seems to be the bedrock of this topic...I am encouraged also by Joan's studies and your responses.
Knowing the difference between the carnal nature and the mortal flesh. As was said:

"In Romans 7:24, it is there called "the body of this death", which is also another way of expressing that which in the same chapter he had earlier called the "law of sin". From the study already given in this publication, we now know that the "old man", the "body of sin", the "body of death" and the "law of sin" all refer to that third factor, the carnal mind, which is "not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."
This is the thing which is crucified to death in the life of those who pass from being unconverted to being converted. This is that which must be done away with by death so that a new life can be resurrected in the place of the old."

As for born again Adventists (not other Christians, as there are too many variables involved for those who are outside of the FULL protection and knowledge of God's Last Messege to man before His return...) who find themselves sinning and repenting over and over, I say this:

To make the situation fully clear we have but to trace the workings of all this firstly in the case of the man in Romans seven and then of the man in Romans eight. To the man in Romans seven comes the temptations of the devil which appeal to the desires or weaknesses of the flesh. In his mind, the man knows that this is wrong. He makes a very definite decision not to do the wrong thing and sends to the body instrument the instructions as to how to act in this case.

But the carnal mind is the real master of the man. This power in him now dominates the scene to make quite ineffective the will of the man so that the desires of the flesh are not kept under control but break out into open sin. Thus it is clear that in this situation the carnal mind is the centre of control.

In the case of the man in Romans eight, the situation is different. Once again the same temptations come to the same flesh. Once again the mind is called upon to make a decision as to what it will see done, for every temptation is a point of choice. Should the mind at this time decide very definitely that there will be no yielding to the temptation, then, provided that that decision is made in the absolute faith that the power of God in him, and the power of God from above, will combine to make that decision effective, then those mighty powers will arise to serve the will to make it positively victorious. The flesh will be kept under perfect control and the evils of sin will not appear.

It cannot be overemphasized that it is faith which gives the victory. The centre of control has been moved from the carnal mind to the will, but that will can only be effective if it exerts its strength in the faith that the Lord will make the decision effective. This faith involves the confidence of knowing the power and the certainty of God to do it. Anyone who, having been born again, thinks that he is himself strong enough now to resist the power of sin, will fall under temptation very surely. "The just shall live by faith." Romans 1:16.

MAINTENANCE

Therefore, it must follow that there is very real need to maintain the living experience which has been obtained. "The just shall live by faith," Romans 1:16, but faith can die away and be lost. Therefore, it needs to be not only maintained, but developed and strengthened. Faith is a living thing and unless living things are continually growing they will die.

So it is that daily there must be a feeding upon the Word of God. The entering into of this experience of deliverance from the old master is called "the new birth" in the Word of God. It is for this reason that a new Christian is called "a new-born babe".

A newly-born baby has only just begun the long journey of life and he needs nourishment at once so that he can develop in every way to the full maturity of manhood or womanhood. So it is that he desires to have milk for his nourishment. So, "As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby." 1 Peter 2:2.

The need for the new Christian and for the older ones, too, to study the Word of God daily cannot be overemphasized. Therein is strength. Without this daily spiritual nourishment the faith will grow weaker and weaker so that when the powerful temptations of the enemy come you will surely fall. You will fall even though you have the mighty power of God within you.

You may ask as to how this could possibly be when it is recognized that the power of God is the greatest power in existence and is certainly much greater than the power of sin. If that power is within us, then how could sin have the mastery over us?

"Rev 10:10  And I took the little scroll out of the angel's hand, and devoured it. And it was sweet like honey in my mouth; and when I ate it, my belly was made bitter."

M.A. Crawford

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1666
    • http://
Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #63 on: August 15, 2002, 08:12:00 AM »
"So it is that daily there must be a feeding upon the word of God....

"The need for the new Christian and the older ones, too, to study the Word of God daily cannot be overemphasized. therein is strength. Without this daily spiritual nourishment the faith will grow weaker and weaker so that when the powerful temptations of the enemy come you will surely fall. You will fall even though you have the mighty power of God within you.

"You may ask as to how this could possibly be when it is recognized that the power of God is the greatest power in existence and is certainly much greater than the power of sin. If that power is within us, then how could sin have the mastery over us?"

The SDA Commentary on page 558 reads:

"...What the law cannot do, what the conscience cannot do, what unaided human strength cannot do, can be accomplished by the plan of the gospel. Complete deliverance is available through Jesus Christ, and through Him alone....

"This is the climax toward which Paul's reasoning in this chapter [Romans 7] has been pointing. It is not enough to be convinced of the excellence of the law or to acknowledge the wisdom and justice of its obligations. It is not enough to consent unto it as good or even to delight in its precepts. No amount of earnest striving after obedience will avail against the law of sin in the members, until the struggling sinner surrenders in faith to Christ. Then surrender to a Person takes the place of legalistic obedience to a law...." (6BC 558).

Therefore, sin cannot have the mastery over us IF WE HAVE SURRENDED ALL TO JESUS CHRIST. Second Corinthians 5:17 makes it VERY CLEAR that:

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Notice the Bible says when we are truly in Christ, ALL THINGS HAVE NOW BECOME NEW!! When ALL THINGS have become new, we are now NEW MEN AND WOMEN in Christ. Sin no longer has the mastery over us because WE HAVE SURRENDED ALL to Jesus. It is CHRIST IN US that gives us the Power to overcome and to obey because:

"...greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world." 1 John 4:4.

Daily reading and studying of Scripture are fine and should be done. But just the reading and studying of the Bible alone will not give us the victory over sin. There are many--both professed Christians and non-Christians--who KNOW WHAT IS RIGHT. But just knowing that which is right is not enough. We must also be DOERS OF THE WORD, and not just hearers only, deceiving our own selves (Jas. 1:22).

I can't emphasize enough that, as 2 Corinthians 5:17 tells us, we must surrender all to Jesus because EVERYTHING ABOUT OUR SALVATION CENTERS IN CHRIST. We are told in Acts 4:12 that NEITHER IS THERE SALVATION IN ANY OTHER. Jesus also very clearly tells us in His Word:

"...for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5.

M.A.    

M.A.

Richard Myers

  • Servant
  • Posts: 38496
  • A glorious sunset teaches of trust and faith.....
    • The Remnant Online
Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #64 on: August 15, 2002, 05:46:00 PM »
Brother Ben,  while you may have been taught Romans by Waggoner, he is not the "bedrock" of the teaching here in this topic. There has only been one quote from Waggoner by Brother Laurie. I have never read his commentary on Romans. As a matter of fact, I have never read anyone's commentary on Romans. The understanding I have that I have shared was given to me when I was a relatively new Christian. It came from Bible study and has been confirmed by the Spirit of Prophecy. If Waggoner's teaching is the same, then he probably learned it the same way I did, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

We indeed were distracted from the truth by a few who objected, but let us continue. I will repost the previous verses and continue with the rest of Romans 8.

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Richard Myers

  • Servant
  • Posts: 38496
  • A glorious sunset teaches of trust and faith.....
    • The Remnant Online
Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #65 on: August 15, 2002, 06:23:00 PM »
Romans Chapter Seven (part 1 of 2)

                         7:5 "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were
                         by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit
                         unto death."

                         When we were unconverted, sin, which is known by the law, was
                         done by our flesh which brings us under the condemnation of the
                         broken law.

                         7:6 "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein
                         we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in
                         the oldness of the letter."

                         Now we delivered from the bondage of the law (the law cannot
                         save, only condemn),being spiritually dead in that bondage (wages
                         of sin is death); that NOW being converted we should serve in the
                         (HOLY) Spirit, and not in outward appearance only (whited sepulchar).

                         7:7 "What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid.Nay, I had
                         not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the
                         law had said, Thou shalt not covet."


                         Shall we say the law is wrong? God forbid!!
                         I would not have known I was sinning and lost and condemned if it
                         was not for the law: I would not have known I was lusting if I did
                         not know the law that says, thou shalt not covet.

                         7:8 "But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all
                         manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was
                         dead."

                         Sin (transgression of the law), now that the law is known, revealed
                         all manner of evil in me. Before I knew the law, I did not know sin.

                         7:9 "For I was alive without the law once: but when the
                         commandment came, sin revived, and I died."

                         I did not know I was under condemnation (death sentence) without
                         a knowledge of the depth of the law: but when I found out about the
                         depth of the law, that it reaches to the intents of the heart, then I
                         became guilty and saw myself spiritually dead (the law slayed me).

                         7:10 "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to
                         be unto death."

                         And the commandments which are Holy and just, and given for our
                         good, I found to cause my spiritual death (under the condemnation
                         of the bronken law).

                         Poor Saul, he is really confused. He was brought under condemnation
                         by the law of God and knows not how to get out from under the
                         death sentence. He, like most other Pharisees, prided themselves in
                         keeping the law, so it was quite a shock to him to find himself a law
                         breaker. The Holy Spirit began to convince him of his sins after he
                         participated in the stoning of Stephen.

                         7:11 "For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me,
                         and by it slew me."

                         For breaking the commandments that I then had knowledge of, I
                         came under condemnation. I knew I was walking after the flesh.

                         7:12 "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and
                         just, and good."

                         I see the law is good.

                         7:13 "Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid.
                         But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which
                         is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding
                         sinful."

                         Was the good law causing me to die? God forbid!!! The
                         commandments showed me I was under condemnation and then I
                         could see the great evil of breaking the commandments.

                         7:14 "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold
                         under sin."

                         We know the Ten Commandments are of God, but I am unholy, and
                         cannot help but sin. I am a slave to sin and cannot help myself. I
                         cannot stop sinning. I have no good fruit in my life. I manifest the
                         works of the flesh for I am carnal, of the flesh.

                         7:15 "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not;
                         but what I hate, that do I."

                         Really, I cannot do good even though I really want to. I want to quit
                         stealing, but I cannot. I want to love my neighbor, but I cannot. I
                         hate taking the Lord's name in vain, but I do it.

                         Paul was not converted, but he was learning of his need of a Saviour. Where are we today? Do we find ourselves in
                         this situation, not being able to quit sinning? Not knowing how to walk in the Spirit? There is a solution to the
                         problem. Paul will reveal the solution as we continue listening to his testimony.

                         In His love and grace, Richard

                                           

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Richard Myers

  • Servant
  • Posts: 38496
  • A glorious sunset teaches of trust and faith.....
    • The Remnant Online
Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #66 on: August 15, 2002, 06:36:00 PM »
                                      7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law
                         that it is good."

                         If I go 65 in a 55mph zone and say I don't really want to speed, I
                         acknowledge that the law is a good one and do not want to do
                         away with it.

                         7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in
                         me."

                         So even though I don't want to sin (I see it is wrong) I still do it
                         because my mind is under the control of my flesh.

                         7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good
                         thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that
                         which is good I find not."

                         Even though I want to obey God, I do not know how. I keep
                         sinning. I lie, I steal, I cheat, I break the seventh commandment. I
                         can not keep the law of God, BUT I want to Keep the law of God.

                         7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would
                         not, that I do."

                         I want to keep the commandments, but I continually break the
                         commandments.

                         7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin
                         that dwelleth in me."

                         Since I do that which I do not want to do, it is not me, but my
                         flesh that is sinful. I really want to do good, but my flesh just
                         keeps sinning.

                         7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present
                         with me."

                         I see a principle that even though I profess to be an Israelite, I am
                         not, I am evil. I do want to be a son of Abraham, but I am not
                         faithful as he was. I live as did Solomon when he fell.

                         7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:"

                         I love the law of God!!!

                         7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law
                         of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of
                         sin which is in my members."

                         But, I see another principle in my flesh warring against the law of
                         my mind, and bringing me into captivity to sin. I cannot resist sin.
I cannot gain the victory over even "little" sins.

                         7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the
                         body of this death?

                         O wretched sinner that I am! Israel's One Great God cannot keep
                         me from sinning! I cannot keep myself from sinning! WHO, WHO,
                         WHO..... can deliver me from myself???? Is there not anyone that
                         can save me? I am condemned and lost.......

                         7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the
                         mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the
                         law of sin."

                         I have found the answer to my question! I now know "Who". I
                         have found a Saviour who I thought was an imposter and whos
                         disciples I persecuted. I did not understand that Jesus was the
                         Lamb of God. I now see why Abraham was asked to sacrifice his
                         son, for God did sacrifice His Son to pay the price for my sins. He
                         has come and delivered me from the law of sin and death. I now
                         can keep the law of God, I can do all things through Christ Jesus
                         who strengthens me. If I cease to look unto Jesus for grace, I
                         then have no power to do good and I then, in my flesh serve the
                         law of sin.

                         In his love and grace, Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Richard Myers

  • Servant
  • Posts: 38496
  • A glorious sunset teaches of trust and faith.....
    • The Remnant Online
Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #67 on: August 15, 2002, 06:40:00 PM »
Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the
                         flesh, but after the Spirit."

                         My first "Bible" was a NIV and the common quote of Romans 8:1 is what is found in that "Bible". It is "evangelical"
                         and is used to mislead. Here is the quote from the NIV: "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who
                         are in Christ Jesus,"

                         It is true there is no condemnation to them that are "in Christ Jesus", but the KJV goes on and explains how you
                         can know you are in Christ Jesus. "....who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

                         There has been a concerted effort to dismiss this Bible doctrine, but it is clear that the wages of sin is death and
                         that those who are in Christ Jesus, do not "walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit." How do you see it? Is this not
                         a common teaching within the church that there is no condemnation to those "in Christ" who walk after the flesh
                         (after all, no one is perfect). Is this not contrary to what Romans 8:1 is saying?

                         There is no condemnation, because there is no sin that has not been confessed that is known. In Christ the
                         Christian is a partaker of the divine nature and is granted grace (power) to overcome. "I can do all things through
                         Christ which strengtheneth me." Philippians 4:13.

                         This does not mean that the Christian will not fall, but rather that in Christ He walks in the light as He is in the
                         light.

                         
   
                         Romans 8:2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

                         We have seen a shift now in the last verse of Romans 7 and the first two verses in Romans 8. Where Paul in
                         Romans 7 was talking about his pre-conversion experience where he did not know he needed a Saviour, he now is
                         discussing the "converted" Paul with a Saviour in His heart. He began Romans 8 by rejoicing that he no longer is
                         under the condemnation he had been under because he is now able to keep the law, walking in the Spirit. Verse
                         two may be contrasted with verse 23 in chapter 7. Remember Paul was saying he had been brought into "captivity
                         to the law of sin." Now in chapter 8, after his conversion, he has been made "free from the law of sin and death."

                         When studied under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit this truth can clearly be seen. Even so, God does not rest this
                         presentation, but inspired the apostle to continue so there would be no excuse for misunderstanding what Jesus in
                         the heart does for the sinner.

                         As we continue in Romans 8 we shall see this understanding confirmed again and again. And, while we move
                         forward in chapter 8, you might review backwards too, and see what the apostle says in chapters 5 and 6 in
                         regards to sinning.

                         In His love and grace, Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Richard Myers

  • Servant
  • Posts: 38496
  • A glorious sunset teaches of trust and faith.....
    • The Remnant Online
Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #68 on: August 15, 2002, 06:46:00 PM »
Romans 8:3,4. "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in
                         the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be
                         fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

                         This text is simple and easy to understand if we do not strive against it. If we desire to support a false gospel,
                         then we must change what it says, but if we will allow the truth into our hearts we shall see the gospel of Jesus
                         Christ. These verses support our understading of Romans 7.

                         The law of God does not save, it condemns all who break it. BUT, not all need to be under it's condemnation.
                         Those who walk after the Spirit of God, not after their flesh, will not be under condemnation. Those who break the
                         law of God, walking according to the flesh, will be under condemnation of the broken law.

                         "God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh..." Jesus took upon Himself the nature of fallen man. "...and
                         for sin, condemned sin in the flesh." Jesus put to death sin while living in the likeness of "sinful flesh". He showed
                         that we can overcome sin while living in sinful flesh. Through the power of the Holy Spirit living in us we may have
                         power to overcome sin. This is spoken of as "walking after the Spirit."
                                                                   
                         Romans 8:5

                         I will not comment on this verse. The Holy Spirit will show all that it needs no interpretation. It is in plain English.

                         "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of
                         the Spirit."

                         It is important to put this verse with the verses we have been studying and see that it supports what has been
                         said up to this point. We are one or the other, but not both. Verse six will give further support to this
                         understanding.
                       
                         Verse 5 supports Romans 8:1. Those that abide in Christ have His Spirit within and they walk after the Spirit for
                         they are surrendered to Him. It is not salvation by works, but rather the fruit of the relationship with Christ.

                         Verse 6 expresses the very same principle that Paul is trying to get across. If we have the mind of Christ, we have
                         life. If we have a carnal mind, walking in the flesh, we have the condemnation of the broken law and thus death.
                         "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." This whole discussion is
                         indicating that we (Christians) have found that through Christ we can overcome sin; we can escape the "captivity
                         to the law of sin" which is in our members. Praise God that through Christ we can "walk in the light as He is in the
                         light." This is not salvation by works, but works by salvation. "I can do all things through Christ who strengtheneth
                         me." Amen. It is Christ, not I. No salvation by works. It is salvation by grace, the grace of Jesus Christ. This great
                         love of God for us while we are yet sinners, if allowed into the heart will transform the nature. We become
                         partakers of the divine nature. The Holy Spirit is revealed in the life of the Christian. These good works are the fruit
                         of Christ in the life.

                         Let me add another important point that none should overlook. Even with the good works that Christ works in the
                         life of the true believer, salvation is not possible. The wages of one sin, is death. All have sinned. The only way
                         any man can be saved is by the great suffering and death of our Saviour. Period. There is no way that one can
                         atone for their own sins or the sins of another. Only God could do this and He did so willingly. Let not one
                         accusation be made that what has been said in this thread has any measure of salvation by works. It is not so, not
                         in the least.

                         One last comment on this subject. The good works that are seen in the life of the true believer are there only as one abides in Christ, for it is Christ that is doing the work. The moment one looks away from Jesus, self takes over. The motive becomes selfish without a living connection to Christ. Without the Spirit of Christ in the heart, man is not in a "saved" condition. His works are full of selfishness.

                         In His love and grace, Richard

[This message has been edited by Richard Myers (edited 08-15-2002).]

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

M.A. Crawford

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1666
    • http://
Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #69 on: August 16, 2002, 10:37:00 AM »
"...What the law cannot do, what the conscience cannot do, what unaided human strength cannot do, can be accomplished by the plan of the gospel. Complete deliverance is available through Jesus Christ, and through Him alone...." (6BC 558).

This is precisely why the devil does not want us to SERIOUSLY study the Bible. Because He knows that the plan of the Gospel is in Its pages. He also knows that if one will HUMBLY AND REVERENTLY study this plan, one will discover that COMPLETE DELIVERANCE FROM SIN is available through Jesus Christ. But, in order to spiritually discern this, we must come to God's Word WITH THE RIGHT ATTITUDE which, unfortunately, many do not do. Let me illustrate:

"Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not after their works: for they say and do not." Matthew 23:1-3.

The Scribes and Pharisees were the religious leaders of the people in Jesus' day. Surely if anyone knew what "Thus saith the Lord," it would be these individuals. But notice what Jesus told those gathered. He said whatsoever they tell you to do, do that. But don't do as they do, because they say, but do not. Jesus, in His Supreme Wisdom, did not try to belittle or degrade the religious leaders of the people. This is why He instructed the multitude to do as they were so instructed by them. But Jesus warned His followers not to do as they see them doing because they are good at telling others what to do BUT THEY DON'T DO IT THEMSELVES!!! Therein lies the problem. Some people see the Bible as sound advice and instruction FOR SOMEONE ELSE but never seem to get around to doing it themselves. Sounds familiar? It should. It's known as rendering "lip service." Jesus has something to say about that too:

"He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied [Isaiah 29:13] of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me." Mark 7:6.

GOD IS NOT INTERESTED IN OUR TALK!! Too many professed Christians have made a religion out of verbal utterances, thinking that God is "impressed" with our words. But we need to be constantly reminded that:

"...for the Lord seeth not as man seeth: for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart." 1 Samuel 16:7.

God knows the heart: WHICH IS THE REAL YOU AND ME!!! Therefore, as I stated above, God is not interested in our talk. He's interested in our walk:

"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." 1 John 2:6.

OUR ACTIONS speak much louder than our words. I believe that the TRUE CHARACTER of a Christian lies not in how well he can recite Scripture and pontificate on a particular theological subject or topic, but IN HOW HE TREATS OTHERS as outlined in the Word of God:

"If a man say, I love God and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?" 1 John 4:20.

The Bible also says:

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." 1 John 3:15.

WE MAY NOT use the word "hate" when we are rendering evil unto another by way of unkind words and deeds, but I believe IT IS TRANSLATED AS HATE just the same because the end result is TO DO INJURY to one's brother or sister.

This is why the devil wants to keep us away from The Book and from seriously studying our Bibles. Because, when we faithfully and prayerfully study God's Word, WE SEE OURSELVES AS GOD SEES US!!!

M.A.

M.A.

Ben

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 519
    • http://
Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #70 on: August 16, 2002, 11:01:00 PM »
No arguments from me , gentleman! This is the truth, alright.

I see that the life of Christ is the Seed, planted by the Spirit, and fed by the 'fertilizer' of the Word. The Seed will be planted only when He is allowed to uproot the "old man" at conversion.

Do you gentleman agree with what I have posted?

[This message has been edited by Ben (edited 08-17-2002).]

"Rev 10:10  And I took the little scroll out of the angel's hand, and devoured it. And it was sweet like honey in my mouth; and when I ate it, my belly was made bitter."

Richard Myers

  • Servant
  • Posts: 38496
  • A glorious sunset teaches of trust and faith.....
    • The Remnant Online
Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #71 on: August 17, 2002, 07:41:00 AM »
Amen, the Word was made flesh. Christ is the "Living Word". The Holy Spirit opens our mind to the reception of the Word,  the Truth, our God. When we come to Jesus just as we are, He reveals Himself to us. He reveals His grace which subdues our hearts and makes us one with Him. When He abides in our hearts we then have the fruits of the Spirit, not one is missing. We must continue to feed upon Jesus, the Word, if we are to maintain this experience. The moment we cease to look unto Jesus, we fall from grace.

It is a blessing to find those that are in unity on the foundation of our faith. The ramifications of this are great. There can be no acceptance of "Phariseeism" or "new theology" when one is anchored to the Rock. With the reception of this truth of the power of God's grace to transform the moral character at conversion, the teachings in the Bible harmonize. Many difficult passages begin to make sense.  What to many may seem the end of a long study will prove to be the beginning of real understanding.

The real battle will now begin in earnest as Satan will do all that he can to keep us away from Jesus. He knows that by beholding Christ we shall become changed daily. He will do all that he can to keep us busy, too busy for Jesus, too busy for reading to see Jesus, too busy to read The Desire of Ages daily. Our work is more important? No. Our ministry is more important? No. Without Jesus we have no ministry that is going to lead souls to Christ.

We must be fed before we can feed others. We must partake of His Spirit in order to become the fountains of "Living Waters" that Christ would have us be. This very "narrow" theology we are speaking of is wholly dependent upon Christ. He is the beginning and the end. He is all to us and without Him we can do no good thing.

He knocks at the door of the heart today, wanting in. How do we receive Him? We come to Him just as we are. We come to Him by spending time with Him in prayer and study. Through the power of the Holy Spirit we shall see the character of our God as we read His Words. They will become life to us. He is the Manna sent from heaven to be our Food. Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.  He has revealed himself through the Bible. Satan has maligned the character of our God, but within Scripture we find not only a correct description of the character of God, but we also find described the great controversy between Christ and Satan.  As we spend time in the Word seeking to understand our God we will not be disappointed. 

It is God's desire that we should behold Jesus and by holding Him become changed into his image ( moral character). This is how we may give glory to our God.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

M.A. Crawford

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1666
    • http://
Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #72 on: August 18, 2002, 02:06:00 PM »
"Do you gentleman agree with what I have posted?"

I agree with your post dated 08-16-2002 at 11:01 PM. To further illustrate, Christ told the self-righteous, "holier-than-thou" religious leaders of his day:

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity." Matthew 23:27, 28.

Very strong words, indeed!! The Scribes and Pharisees were known for their profession of piety and for their great display of religious acts to be seen of men (vs. 5); and for their love of the uppermost seats at feasts and the chief seats in the synagogues (vs. 6); and loved to be called "Rabbi" (vs.7). But Christ made it very clear to His followers:

"But be ye not called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren" (vs. 8).

In other words, as Christians, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ who are supposed to be about the business of LOVING ONE ANOTHER by helping each other to be drawn closer to Jesus. WE ARE NOT to give the impression that anyone among us is more important IN GOD'S SIGHT than anyone else:

"And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted" (vs. 12).

Christ was rejected because He came teaching WHAT THE PEOPLE DID NOT WANT TO HEAR! Christ came teaching humility and of making oneself of no reputation (Phil. 2:7) which were qualities that were not desired BECAUSE THEY DID NOT EXALT THE INDIVIDUAL in the eyes of others. Everyone wants to be admired and commended by others. And there is nothing wrong with that. The problem arises when praise and admiration cause us to LET OUR SO-CALLED BRILLANCE OUTSHINE OUR ACTUAL BRIGHTNESS and we end up forgetting that:

"...without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5.

It is so easy to fall into the trap of: "HEY, LOOK AT ME"!!!! It happened to Lucifer. It happened to Peter when he took his eyes off Jesus as he walked on water. It happened to some of the early Adventist pioneers of whom it was said:

"...By many who have engaged in the work for this time, CHRIST HAS BEEN MADE SECONDARY, and theories and argument have had first place...." (1SM 383, emphasis mine).

AND IT WILL HAPPEN TO US if we don't make Christ PRIMARY AND THE GOVERNING PRINCIPLE in our lives, and live EVERY DAY by every word that proceeds out of the Mouth of God (Matt. 4:4), and put on the Lord Jesus Christ (Roman 13:14) IN EVERY DEPARTMENT of our lives.

M.A.      

M.A.

Richard Myers

  • Servant
  • Posts: 38496
  • A glorious sunset teaches of trust and faith.....
    • The Remnant Online
Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #73 on: August 18, 2002, 08:52:00 PM »
Amen, Brother Crawford! Self must be dead, hid in Christ. We are skipping a few verses, but verse 14 says "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."

Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Mike Lowe

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 518
    • http://www.wildernesswayadventures.com/index.html
Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #74 on: September 03, 2002, 11:20:00 AM »
Hello. I'm not sure if my views are radically different, but here goes:

I believe the man of Romans 7 describes a born again believer successfully resisting the unholy desires and clamorings generated and communicated by his sinful flesh nature.

Here's why. In Romans 6 Paul clearly describes a born again believer as someone who is dead to sin and awake to Christ and His righteousness. They are free from sin.

In Romans 7 Paul explains that even though a born again believer is free from sin (so long as he remains connected to Jesus) he is nevertheless constantly bombarded by the unholy thoughts and feelings generated and communicated by his sinful flesh nature.

Paul is careful to say that they should not blame themselves for the existence of these unholy thoughts and feelings. They are only temptations, and do not become sin until cherished or acted upon. Just because we are born again does not mean that our sinful flesh natures stop tempting us with unholy thoughts and feelings.

Romans 7
17   Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18   For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:

The "do it" Paul is talking about cannot be referring to the commission of a known moral sin, because the sin that dwelleth in our sinful flesh natures cannot commit sin. It can only communicate sin in the form of a temptation. Thus, the "do it" is referring to the flesh generating and communicating unholy thoughts and feelings.

Romans 8
3   For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Jesus experienced this same kind of battle between His sinless mind and His sinful flesh nature. Although His sinful flesh nature generated and communicated unholy thoughts and feelings, Jesus never once cherished them or acted them out in thought, word or deed. Rather, He condemned the sin in His sinful flesh nature by refusing to sin. He ever remained connected to the Father and was a partaker of the divine nature in the same way born again believers must partake of the divine nature.

What do the rest of you think about this interpretation?


Richard Myers

  • Servant
  • Posts: 38496
  • A glorious sunset teaches of trust and faith.....
    • The Remnant Online
Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #75 on: September 03, 2002, 02:20:00 PM »
Pastor Mike, since your interpretation directly contradicts what I have shared, maybe you would like to point out where you think I erred.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Randy S

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 134
    • http://
Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #76 on: September 03, 2002, 10:12:00 PM »
Richard, help me out here.  I'm doing my best to keep up with the conversation.  I'm having trouble seeing what the contradiction is between what you and Mike are saying.  Is it that Mike says we retain our sinful human nature after conversion and you say we don't?

Mike Lowe

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 518
    • http://www.wildernesswayadventures.com/index.html
Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #77 on: September 04, 2002, 03:00:00 PM »
Richard, I'm sorry our views clash. I don't mean to be disagreeable. Perhaps our differences are attributable to how we see the phrase "sin that dwelleth in me... (that is, in my flesh)." Rom 7:17,18.

Paul seems to be saying that tempting unholy thoughts and feelings originate with sinful flesh nature. He doesn't seem to be talking about the actual commission of a known sin. Otherwise, he would be guilty of blame shifting - "it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." Rom 7:17. Rather, the "do it" apparently refers to the temptations generated and communicated by sinful flesh nature.

Paul also seems to use the same personal pronoun ("I") to describe two different aspects of a born again believer. For example - "For that which I do [his fallen flesh clamoring for sinful expression] I allow not [in the Spirit and mind of the new man he resists the temptations communicated by his sinful flesh nature]..." Rom 7:15.

Does this help clarify our differences?


Richard Myers

  • Servant
  • Posts: 38496
  • A glorious sunset teaches of trust and faith.....
    • The Remnant Online
Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #78 on: September 04, 2002, 08:44:00 PM »
Pastor Mike, no need to apologize for a difference of views.   :)  Jesus desires us to come into unity of doctrine, but He knows that as a people we have a way to go.<P>It appears from reading other posts of yours that we are not far apart in regards to our understanding of the power of grace to transform the life. Since I have taken time to present what I feel is not only a correct Biblical interpretation of the passages, but one that is also in harmony with the Spirit of Prophecy, please take my commentary verse by verse and explain where you see a problem. I think it good for me to wait to respond until you have commented on the whole that I have posted, if this is agreeable to you.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Mike Lowe

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 518
    • http://www.wildernesswayadventures.com/index.html
Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #79 on: September 05, 2002, 07:34:00 AM »
Richard, here's what you wrote. My comments follow your notes::

Romans Chapter Seven (part 1 of 2)

7:5 "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit
unto death."

When we were unconverted, sin, which is known by the law, was done by our flesh which brings us under the condemnation of the
broken law.

Mike: the "motions of sins" in our flesh are the tempting unholy thoughts and feelings generated and communicated by our sinful flesh natures. To be "in the flesh" means cherishing and/or acting them out.

7:6 "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

Now we delivered from the bondage of the law (the law cannot save, only condemn),being spiritually dead in that bondage (wages
of sin is death); that NOW being converted we should serve in the (HOLY) Spirit, and not in outward appearance only (whited sepulchar).

Mike: when we are born again we are dead to sin and awake to Christ and His righteousness. The law no longer condemns us as lawbreakers because now our Spirit connected experience in is harmony with the law and the example of Jesus.

7:7 "What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid.Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the
law had said, Thou shalt not covet."

Shall we say the law is wrong? God forbid!!
I would not have known I was sinning and lost and condemned if it was not for the law: I would not have known I was lusting if I did not know the law that says, thou shalt not covet.

Mike: the Holy Spirit enables us to realize we are sinners as we look at the law we are breaking.

7:8 "But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was
dead."

Sin (transgression of the law), now that the law is known, revealed all manner of evil in me. Before I knew the law, I did not know sin.

Mike: before the Holy Spirit opens our eyes as to the true nature of the law we are blind to our true condition as sinners.

7:9 "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died."

I did not know I was under condemnation (death sentence) without a knowledge of the depth of the law: but when I found out about the depth of the law, that it reaches to the intents of the heart, then I became guilty and saw myself spiritually dead (the law slayed me).

Mike: when the Holy Spirit is able to open our eyes we see the law for what it really is and we realize our lost, sinful condition.

7:10 "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death."

And the commandments which are Holy and just, and given for our good, I found to cause my spiritual death (under the condemnation of the bronken law).

Mike: the law is death for those who realize they are lawbreakers.

Poor Saul, he is really confused. He was brought under condemnation by the law of God and knows not how to get out from under the
death sentence. He, like most other Pharisees, prided themselves in keeping the law, so it was quite a shock to him to find himself a law breaker. The Holy Spirit began to convince him of his sins after he
participated in the stoning of Stephen.

7:11 "For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me."

For breaking the commandments that I then had knowledge of, I came under condemnation. I knew I was walking after the flesh.

Mike: sin slays those who stay in darkness as concerning the true nature of their sinful condition.

7:12 "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good."

I see the law is good.

Mike: the law is good because it is impartial and consistent, thus allowing the Holy Spirit to someday help us discover our sinful condition and turn to Jesus for salvation.

7:13 "Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful."

Was the good law causing me to die? God forbid!!! The commandments showed me I was under condemnation and then I could see the great evil of breaking the commandments.

Mike: the law consitently reveals sin in sinners so that they can learn to turn to Jesus for salvation.

7:14 "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin."

We know the Ten Commandments are of God, but I am unholy, and cannot help but sin. I am a slave to sin and cannot help myself. I cannot stop sinning. I have no good fruit in my life. I manifest the works of the flesh for I am carnal, of the flesh.

Mike: when Adam sinned the human race became the slaves of sin, self and Satan. Our fallen flesh natures crave and clamor to express and experience sin. But it cannot sin in and of itself. Sinful flesh nature can only generate and communicate tempting unholy thoughts and feelings.

7:15 "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I."

Really, I cannot do good even though I really want to. I want to quit stealing, but I cannot. I want to love my neighbor, but I cannot. I hate taking the Lord's name in vain, but I do it.

Mike: our sinful flesh natures crave the unholy things that those who are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man reject and resist unto to the honor and glory of God.

Paul was not converted, but he was learning of his need of a Saviour. Where are we today? Do we find ourselves in this situation, not being able to quit sinning? Not knowing how to walk in the Spirit? There is a solution to the problem. Paul will reveal the solution as we continue listening to his testimony.

Mike: he was converted, therefore he was able to reject and resist the unholy temptations suggested by his fallen flesh nature.